Lol now I'm just having a good time browsing your videos and having a few beers. On this subject, I am quite literally a specialist. The reason being, I work for a company that repairs/replaces gutters, but also, I have 15 years experience roofing. So I spend most of my time dealing with problems related to exactly this issue; Where the roof meets the gutter, the fascia and the edge of the decking. Now, I have seen it all after working for this company for the last 6 years. I see mostly problems related to having no ice and water OR drip edge/apron installed, but I also see issues related to the improper installation of drip edge, issues related to using drip edge without ice and water, and yes, even issues related to the installation of drip edge OVER top of the ice and water. Now all of these issues relate exclusively to roofs under a 5 or 6/12 pitch. Anything steeper than that you won't really see many issues in this regard, they would be the result of a poor installation rather than a good installation that happened to put the drip edge on top of the underlay. So one of the most basic and common issues I will get called to a job for is that the gutter is falling off for one reason or another. Sometimes it's just a gutter issue, replacing the screws is enough to fix the problem. Sometimes there is no drip edge installed at all. In this case, the water that gets behind the gutter will at best rot out the holes around the screws and cause them to fall out; At worst rot the whole fascia out and even cause water to run back through the soffit and behind the siding, stucco and even doors and windows in some cases, as was pointed out in the video. Now you're saying, well yes this all makes sense, we all know this, but here's the kicker: On a 4-5/12 roof, and especially in an area where you get snow, that drip edge is not ALWAYS wide enough to catch the water that wicks back under the edge of the shingles. Not only that, if there is an ice dam on the edge of the roof in the winter, the melt is sure to run under the shingles and under the drip edge, down the fascia, behind the gutter. So in other words, if you install the drip edge over top of the underlay, you're going to have the exact same issues in the long term, in some cases, on lower sloped roofs, as you would if you installed none at all. As to this idea of extending the underlay out or bending it down over the fascia, these materials are not made to withstand the elements for long periods of time. Eventually they wear out, very quickly in a snowy climate. I once worked on a large building installing a roof where we put all the ice and water shield and the synthetic down on the roof to waterproof it so the other trades could get in to do plumbing, electrical etc. It snowed heavily as soon as we were done, then thawed and froze and repeated for about a week after. Once the roof had melted off, we went back up only to discover all the ice and water was full of holes from the action of the ice freezing and thawing over top of it. What this means is that this material is not made to withstand direct exposure to the elements; Rather it is a stop gap measure made to use as an underlay under a weatherproof barrier such as shingles. What happens when you try to use an underlay as some kind of drip edge or apron substitute is that it wears out that first 2-3 inches or whatever you have over hanging and once it wears out, creates a leak behind the gutter and/or on the fascia. Not to mention if you were to run this down over a gutter, how would you ever replace the gutter? Or rehang it if the screws got loose? Regardless, I see probably about a dozen houses a year where the drip edge has to be replaced and put up underneath the underlay to stop leakage behind the gutter. Some of which did not have any issues until 15 years after the roof was installed. This is an EXTREMELY labour intensive and expensive job, costing the home owner sometimes thousands of dollars. So, please listen when I say: The drip is to be put down first, ice and water goes over top to seal down to the drip edge and prevent leaks behind the gutter. Grand Roofing is 100% right about this. If it makes you feel better go ahead and put another layer under the drip edge, although that's gonna get a little expensive! All that being said, for the dozen or so roofs a year I see with this problem, I see hundreds if not thousands a year done the other way around that have no issues until the day they get re-roofed. So, I guess it's a bit of a lottery in a way. As my long ago foreman once told me, "If it don't leak, you did it right!" Such prophetic words! I hope these ramblings help someone out!
Southerners ignore this, unless you have many freezing weather conditions. if you install water and ice over the gutter apron in the northern part of USA, guarantee ice damming damage. Water and ice can last as long as the shingles when installed correctly. the most common fail is when the water and ice is mangled, ripped, or too short, mainly because it isn't showing past the gutter apron, before the gutter is install. needs to cover the deck and onto the fascia. the gutter needs to be in between the water and ice and gutter apron to prevent ice damming. like 1" or 2" past the gutter apron makes it easy for the gutter guys to install without damaging the water and ice. a lot of time roofers will do a good job installing the water and ice, but at times, the roofers will have it cut flush with the gutter apron, making it easy for the gutter guys to crush or rip the material. however the second biggest reason i see fails with water and ice, is not having enough hangers as well. a lot of gutter installer, just cannot understand that ice is heavy and a full gutter of ice can bend out the gutter, away from the fascia, when there isn't plenty of hangers. 😅😅😅 ice gets behind and melts. i love seeing how gutter installers calling 20"- 28" (5" gutter, hangfast style) hanger space, over kill. ahhh well, just sharing a professional word for those installing gutters in the Northern parts of USA, take or leave it, ill continue to install and repair gutters regardless what yah think.
Worked for a company whose roofers put a cut roll of flashing tape over the very edge of sheathing, and then down over the facia. it maybe went about 6 to 8 inches up the decking, and about a half inch to an inch on to the facia (depends if it was sub-facia or the facia metal was already there). It was more like flashing tape (thicker butyl with a smooth face) than ice-n-water. Then they would install drip-edge metal, and then ice-n-water over that. According to them, this prevented any chance of water/ice that might get under the drip edge from rotting the edge of the decking. They said they used the tape they did because it stuck better, and naturally filled nail holes from installing the metal. They just used the extra tape on the bottom of slopes where there would be gutter, not up the sides on gables. They also used it down the valley (I think it was 10" wide, maybe 8") and the ice-n-water over top. They mentioned that ice-n-water had a tendency to tear if stressed enough, where the tape they used had quite a bit of stretch to it. This added 150 to 300 in materials to each job, but seemed worth it for the added insurance against leaks and ice/water backing up and ruining wood.
I always install on top it only makes sense to me.love your videos I'm learning lots of things that I didn't know so I appreciate your videos,GOD BLESS YOU AND YOUR FAMILY
about 20 years ago we ran the I&W under the metal but also started cutting a 6" strip for the top. Best thing to do and never had any sort of problems along the eaves or rakes. Also if new gutters were to be installed. 2" of the I&W would be brought down onto the fascia and the new metal would cover.
A master carpenter who writes for carpenter journals used ice and water 10 in. to 12in. wide brings it over the fascia a little bit then he installs the drip edge then installs the full sheet of ice and water over the drip.
What the video guy is saying is that if you wrap IWS over fascia then drip edge on top that and more IWS on top that: if water gets under the drip edge it can easily just run down IWS onto framing fascia and into soffit and into house. Seems to me the real answer is a drip edge on the framing fascia and drip edge on trim fascia (with some sort of weep holes in the fascia trim to empty ant water running down framing fascia.)
I usually always go above it, only case is when it's a lower slope, I just cut a small strip that wraps down the fascia, assumming there's no gutter there, then slap the eave metal on and then I continue overtop with a full 3ft width roll. But most houses and homeowners don't really want you taking off their gutters and reinstalling them just to put ice and water on the fascia a few inches. So most times it's just laid overtop of the drip edge, either way has its pros/cons but one can only be done if theres no gutter on
It depends on the pitch for me, lower pitches i put the i&w first, but roll it about an inch over the facia, steeper pitches i don't mind putting it on top of the metal. Gable ends i always put the paper then the drip. Lots of times I'll also zip tape from the drip edge onto the smooth Ice and water shield..
So I watched a TON of your videos before replacing the roof on my mom's house myself. it's just a ranch style house, 22 square, 4/12 pitch with a center chimney. I placed GAF storm guard down first (across the bottom and up the gables) and laid it an inch over the facia. Then I ran drip edge across the bottom. I put GAF deck armor over top all of that making sure that I covered all the nails in the drip edge. Then I ran my drip edge up the gables to hold down the ends of the underlayment. My logic was that the drip edge nails would be "sealed" by the properties of the storm guard and the Deck armor would shed any water that got through the shingles all the way to the edge of the drip and into the gutters. I still don't know if it's right or wrong! haha! But that's what I settled on doing.
@@GrandRoofingInc I also used the Miami-Dade nailing schedule since well nails are cheap. And there are zero improperly placed or exposed nails. I worked in standing seam metal roofing for a couple years back in the mid 90's but I'd never done a shingle roof before this project. Your videos were SUPER helpful. Thanks!
5:57 The real way to do a gutter apron -on NEW construction, would be to first wrap your ice/shield over roof onto the fascia board...then put on your gutter apron...then put another piece of "underlayment" on top of gutter apron as usual. The reason is because ice can start below the apron inside of a gutter and then get it's way behind the apron and go backwards/upwards. Having the ice/shield stuck to the fascia takes care of that issue. As I said, you then have to have an underlayment as usual to go over the apron. As for existing construction that wasn't done right.... if there's an issue like you have here, then yes, you would take down that aluminum fascia and the apron when you are re-shingling and get it all done right.
When there are gutters on the house ice dams would damage facia and soffit if ice and water went on top of drip. Nothing wrong with a strip under the drip. Then ice and water over drip. Here in Boston code calls for 6 feet of ice and water on all starter edges. I’ve seen ice dams big enough where I can literally walk on them to chop reservoirs to release the damming water. Nothing wrong with over and under. Just don’t let the ice and water go below the drip where it’s visible. Keep up the good work.
Thank you for being the only other person I've heard address this issue. Code in La. is under drip edge on rakes and over drip edge on eaves. But it's a flawed system regardless of how it's installed in my opinion bc water gets through eventually either way.
The real issue here is the drip edge was installed too tight to the fascia, causing it to stick up and eliminating pitch on the last shingle. On low pitched roofs, I always leave a slight gap between the fascia and drip for this reason. I would rather see the last shingle droop down a bit then stick up on a low pitch. Yes, ice and water on top of the metal may have prevented the leak, but ice and water should never be part of your first line of defense. Ice and water is there to REDUCE damage when the shingles fail (shingle blows off, ice dam creates pool of water, etc)
Done it both ways. Come to putting i&w down first then metal for the fact it sticks to all the wood. Feel more confident doing it this way when ice damns occur. If the metals being left on for re-roofing i&w will be rolled over the top of the metal.
New roof: Under the drip edge, 1 to 1.5" on to the fascia. I then place synthetic over the drip edige and the rest of the roof. Makes it easier for the next roofer to rip off the roof. Old roof: over the drip.
Always Any dry in under edge metal. ! Tar starter in place And shingle And no water wicking or Wind driven water of any kind ?? FLORIDA Roofer ! no HatE Been Doing It 35 YEAR CONTRACTOR ! u the MAN ☺️!
I need some guidance, i live in Houston and my house was built in 1975, I have some rotten roof decking and I have some rotten fascia. I'm getting ready to re-do my roof and was wondering should I replace all my fascia first before I start on the tare off or replace the fascia after the tare off? But I was thinking the old drip edge is in my way of replacing the fascia, so I might have to demo the roof first and then replace the fascia, then new drip edge, then roof? Also, the original fascia is two pieces of wood. First a 3/4" thick with a six inch profile but over that is another 3/4" thick piece of wood but it barely sticks out below the 1 1/2" drip edge. All the houses in my neighborhood are like this but can't find anyone online or TH-cam referencing this style of fascia. Maybe because I don't know the proper name for it? IDK, im guessing it's called step fascia or something like that? Any help regarding that would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
I am just a homeowner, so I am learning multiple things from every one of your videos. At 8:54-8:55, I think you are saying, if you are not going to take the gutter off, then you would want the i&w to lap over into the gutter, rather than down the fascia. If that is what you meant to say, I don't think you ever want i&w lapping down into the gutter because in a big rain storm the gutter is going to be full, water will work its way up behind the i&w, and in the winter, freeze-thaw will destroy the i&w adhered on the gutter side. I like your suggestion that drip edge should always be installed at least 1/4" beyond the eave edge. That way the bottom angle will be far enough away from the fascia to actually function as a drip edge. Otherwise, water is going to climb/creep up the fascia behind the drip edge, and not dry out very fast. My comments are based on my own observations around my home of 38 years.
I was talking about the gutter because some people tell me I need to take them down and install ice and water over the face of the facia bored. I don't see anyone removing gutters to put ice in water down. The biggest thing is making sure if you put it down before apron it goes over the face of something other than wood. That's why I'm a fan of putting adequate sized apron down then installing ice and water on top of that to seal everything off.
@@GrandRoofingInc That makes sense, . . . not leaving any wood exposed that could get waterlogged and rot out. In the high country in Colorado, local building codes require Ice&Water over the entire field of the roof, not just along eave edges, gable edges, valleys, transitions, hips, and ridges. I have seen some online discussions that I&W over OSB can make it impossible to re-roof without tearing off all the roofing materials, including the OSB, because the I&W cannot be peeled off once it hits wood or metal. That might be a reason not to attach I&W to apron, because a tear off would get even more expensive and time consuming if all the metal had to be replaced at the same time. But I am not a roofer and do not have any personal experience. I just read it online. Also, the slope of the roof and the angle of the fascia can make a difference as to how well a drip edge or apron functions. Flat roofs will have more water lingering in the fascia area and getting wind-driven against the fascia, whereas on 4:12 or steeper, water will drip more freely to the ground. I am still thinking about the idea that drip edge or apron where the bottom edge is clamped against the fascia is prone to not releasing drops of water, instead just holding them against the fascia for absorption and eventual popping of paint. This might be an argument for making sure the fascia is 100% vinyl or metal. Also, I wish they made I&W that came with synthetic on the surface. It is less safe for the roofer to work on slippery synthetic, but I believe I&W has a sticky surface in hot weather, and a metal roof will oil-can if it cannot slide when expanding & contracting in hot weather because it will be stuck to the I&W. This might be an argument for covering a full roof of I&W with another layer of synthetic. Or then there is Huber Zip System and Georgia Pacific Forcefield, but I don't know if they get sticky in hot weather. I think their water proofing comes from chemical preservative, but I have not heard anyone describe what exactly produces the water proofing. Maybe you could address this question in a future video. Sorry I put so much in this comment.
Grace I and W actually addressed this and there specs are to install a 12" roll under the edging and fold an inch over fascia followed by edging followed by 36" roll overlapping the edging. The layer under the edging is extremely important! If and when your gutter freezes and "backs up" it will get directly under your edging as this is the easiest point of resistance for the water to escape, and if you put edging down over bare roof then that bare wood will be the first to rot. This is a highly debated topic, I have 20+ yrs as a builder but people with more experience can disagree all they want, I just refer to manufacturer specs. You know, if directions and warrantees mean anything to any other business owners.... But what do the manufacturers know about the product they make? More than some roofing laborer who thinks because water "runs down" it will never leak.
That is a 50:50 question…. Don’t have to run ice/water on drip line in oregon, but valleys obviously. Always put 1x3 under the ice/water and safeguard underlayment over the drip.
we had mr roof do our roof here, i watched the whole thing and we have gutters , they put a apron i guess it was kinda like drip edge but larger on to the edge then hung into gutter, then ice and water on the top of it then the shingle on the top and they all over hung into the gutter a tad so they all drip into the gutter
On top, because just like you said water backing up,if the ice and water is stuck to the top of the gutter apron, the bottom of the gutter apron is metal against wood, so 3in of unprotected wood, remember water backing up. So ice and water stuck down 100% to the fascia, then gutter apron, and run underlayment over both or add a strip of self stick membrane on top of the apron, so it cost more but the is for top tier quality only. Also underlayment over ice and water help with the next tear off, because shingles can stick to ice and water causing a extra headache
I disagree with ice and water shield going on top of the drip edge. Not sure if you're in the Northeast but out here in the winter, sometimes gutters freeze up very badly and when that happens, the drip edge is pushed up from the expanded ice thus exposing the top of the fascia board where it meets the plywood. Now you have an area that is vulnerable for water to drip back into and is a really bad scenario especially for houses that don't have an overhang. The correct ways to put the ice and water shield on first and even go as far as to getting it behind the gutter about a half inch or an inch. Even if that means loosening the gutter system. Then put your drip edge on. In the event you have missing shingles from some storm and water runs behind the shingles and down the underlayments, whatever water runs behind the drip edge will run off the ice and water shield and into the gutter. But I don't know about anyone else, my roof systems don't typically have missing shingles for this to be an issue regardless. We've been doing it that way for over 15 years and have never had a single issue. Another thing is the way this installer put his drip edge on. It's barely nailed. That's why they're such a flat slope at the bottom. No wonder water got in the seams and ran the way it did. No matter who's right or wrong, I can say that doing it our way hasn't caused a single issue in the last 15 years with our ice and water going down first before the drip edge. And we've had some pretty insane storms out here in Connecticut.
Ice and water down and wrap onto the subfascia board, place drip edge and run another small 4 inch wide length of zip tape over the upper seam of drop edge to connect it to the ice and water shield. That way any ice damns or gutter blockages don’t get up under the drip edge and do what you see in your video, it’ll also allow passage over the drip edge if any compromise happens up the roof. Follow that methodology for eave and rake edges and flashing.
Ive got new sheathing and fascia, I'm up in manitoba rain, wind, snow and ice. I don't want water under drip edge, rotting wood and lifting ice and water shield? I think I need something under and over drip edge? The manufactor of material I'm using states adhere it to facsia.
yes you would run your ice and water over the edge and over the fascia. If you are using an apron and you want extra insurance I would put a strip over the top as well. I only stated going over because, let's face it nobody wraps it over the face they just go over or under. Going over will at least seal to the apron which will cover over your fascia and into a gutter if you have one.
I didn't talk about it this video but we do after transitioning to synthetic run the paper all the way up and then run the gables drip on top of that. The thinking behind that is if anything jumps the rib on the Gable metal it will be on the paper. But honestly that is way less important to me than the bottom apron. Thanks for the feedback.
Drip edge or apron flashing? If you use drip edge on a lower slope is it going to push the edge shingles up and create an opportunity for wicking water back or even ponding along the edge? Isn't the drip edge designed to be at 90°, rather than an apron that is made for the slope of the roof to the vertical fascia? Or are there types that are angled properly? If you have a gutter (and around here we always do) is having a drip extension still a good idea?
Since there's no gutter on this home, the use of Drip edge is the problem here, as it is raising the shingle at the roof edge. Custom edge metal or Gutter apron would have been better, as both would have been bent to match the roof pitch
How about ice & water then put starter roll comes in 30 foot roll and it’s peel and stick just like ice&water? ( over the apron )I see a lot of roofers using drip edge instead of apron don’t think it’s right , just not enough meat going up the roof. Good video 👍👍
If ice and water is going to go down 1st it really should go over the facial border a little. So any potential backing up of water needs to get out over any facial metal. As far as the peeling stick starter I'm not a fan of it, if it's what I'm thinking of it's not near as thick as starter shingles.
I am not a Contractor but this question seems to be a never ending battle with no one actually presenting a responsible, well thought out, answer! Until recently, that is! My name is Ed. I am on my wifes account because I do not do social media. We are getting ready to have a roof installed within the next two weeks and I asked that question of every Contractor that quoted my roof. Understand that I did extensive research on roof installations and if it weren't for my age, I could probably install the roof myself. But...... I finally had one Contractor that actually gave me the ONLY answer that made any sense! He said: The Ice and Water Shield goes "under" the Drip Edge. I asked him why and this was his response: "The bottom row of shingles has to stick to the Drip Edge. The Tar Strip on the bottom of the shingle needs to stick directly to the drip edge because if there were strong, hurricane winds, (we reside in Florida) there would be a good chance the Ice and water shield would be able to be blown off the Drip Edge, along with the Shingles on the bottom row! That was the only "reasonable" answer anyone gave me!
Just an observation. Over anything else you may put down and under the shingles, many manufacturers require a starter strip, usually their own, to have their warranty. Seems to me your roofer is not using a starter strip if he says the shingles must stick to the drip edge.
What was your solution here? DId you advise the customer to just pull off the bottom 4 foot and replace or the whole roof? It seems to me that while that would save some money you are then taking ownership of everything done above.... Not sure if I would be willing to do that.
I always run ice and water under the apron then apron then synthetic felt. If your going on top I would recommend priming the edge metal like you would for sbs. Sbs on low slope is the same base down first, edge metal primed then cap sheet. Just my opinion
Watch the this old house video on how to shingle. Ice and water shield run over fascia but behind drip edge (so you dont see it), offset drip edge from fascia a half inch to prevent wicking, offset shingle past drip edge a half inch to further prevent wicking. If you do it this way I dont think water could get under the drip edge, but i guess you could put ice and water shield above and below the drip edge to be safe. It looks like they did not bring the aluminum fascia up to bottom of drip edge which isnt helping as well.
Drip edge is the first thing that goes on then ice shield then your synthetic paper all the way then run your rake edge dip edge last.. Then metal or shingle...
I don't use gutters on my new builds. For a little more money, I put a 3' wide band of 4" thick concrete around the perimeter of the building, thus avoiding all the gutter problems mentioned here. Besides, what good is a gutter in a torrential downpour....
IWS is a better tar paper - so should be above the apron or the drip edge. My house had the tar paper tucked in the drip edge at eaves, and it is BAD - run down water get into the front wall and rot some deck boards cuz drip edge is slightly above the end of the tar paper.
Usually if you just loosely put the drip edge on its good to go. If there's fascia metal then there's not really any need to have a gap at all as the fascia metal is protecting the actual wooden fascia board behind it from water contact
But i mean the roof in the video is kinda iffy, the fascia metal should have been higher up, even a small lip on the top side to lay onto the roof edge
A problem is they build cheap houses in that area. You can start down on the wall below. The moisture barrier is usually junk material applied by inexperienced untrained workers. Right here in this house you can see they did not put the moisture barrier to the top of the wall, and it's barely attached . Then they put on the cheap tin soffit and junk vinyl siding.
It's amazing how many have no idea what they are doing. How is it thst we the home owners know more than the contractors. I had to ask them 10 times to put the gutter apron on and when they finally did they put it over the paper. Sane with valleys. They put the valley paper on last instead of first. Many don't even watch them and they get away with it.
@@joshuawilson1989 I had to modify mine just slightly with a hatchet to get it to fit. I did do a video on it so you can see before you order it, but it is definitely one of my favorite tools besides my mag hatchet.
I see a lot of you voice your preferences but none speak of code in certain areas. And certainly the region, the snow and the ice. I get it though it’s what makes sense but if it does go by code and your ready to sell good luck on inspection. People think bout the now but if it fail inspection it has to be done over anyways. Just my opinion (2cents)
50 years of being a roofer and roofing contractor 2nd generation. Just retired. If you live anywhere in cold climates with snow then you better cover your a$$. Ice and water shield 3" over the gutter board 6' up the roof or 2' inside the interior wall line. Drip edge with caulk under the nailed edge. 6" ice shield cover strip over drip. Then cover ice shield with underlayment so the shingles don't stick to ice shield( because if you let them stick they will only come off if it's 80 degrees).
Because of being in NE Ohio I overkill..I take gutter off wrap my ice over fascia goin down 4-5 inches then run a row over my drip edge..fuck ice dams...also when I worked for a big company we took every gutter off to wrap ice down and siding off to wrap all walls up 6 inches
This is the way, don't let people tell you "you don't need to do what in your professional opinion needs to be done". Have integrity, do every job with standards and tell the first cheap corner cutting budget pinching homeowner (politely) that you are not the contractor for them. Always under the edging or ice dams will getcha
Got a similar problem on my home. Seems this is an all too common problem. Can't figure out why this happens, it is as if the edge of a roof is always the weak link in the whole process. You would think by now roofers would have figured out how to fix this problem. Maybe they do and it is intentional to insure more work for them in the future. Don't want to dis you but with all your talking on the subject in this video I still have no idea why this happens and what the fix is. Would like a video with a lot less gobbledygook talking and just show us how to prevent this. That is the advantage of videos - we want to see the solution not hear talking about it.
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Lol now I'm just having a good time browsing your videos and having a few beers. On this subject, I am quite literally a specialist. The reason being, I work for a company that repairs/replaces gutters, but also, I have 15 years experience roofing. So I spend most of my time dealing with problems related to exactly this issue; Where the roof meets the gutter, the fascia and the edge of the decking. Now, I have seen it all after working for this company for the last 6 years. I see mostly problems related to having no ice and water OR drip edge/apron installed, but I also see issues related to the improper installation of drip edge, issues related to using drip edge without ice and water, and yes, even issues related to the installation of drip edge OVER top of the ice and water.
Now all of these issues relate exclusively to roofs under a 5 or 6/12 pitch. Anything steeper than that you won't really see many issues in this regard, they would be the result of a poor installation rather than a good installation that happened to put the drip edge on top of the underlay.
So one of the most basic and common issues I will get called to a job for is that the gutter is falling off for one reason or another. Sometimes it's just a gutter issue, replacing the screws is enough to fix the problem. Sometimes there is no drip edge installed at all. In this case, the water that gets behind the gutter will at best rot out the holes around the screws and cause them to fall out; At worst rot the whole fascia out and even cause water to run back through the soffit and behind the siding, stucco and even doors and windows in some cases, as was pointed out in the video. Now you're saying, well yes this all makes sense, we all know this, but here's the kicker: On a 4-5/12 roof, and especially in an area where you get snow, that drip edge is not ALWAYS wide enough to catch the water that wicks back under the edge of the shingles. Not only that, if there is an ice dam on the edge of the roof in the winter, the melt is sure to run under the shingles and under the drip edge, down the fascia, behind the gutter. So in other words, if you install the drip edge over top of the underlay, you're going to have the exact same issues in the long term, in some cases, on lower sloped roofs, as you would if you installed none at all.
As to this idea of extending the underlay out or bending it down over the fascia, these materials are not made to withstand the elements for long periods of time. Eventually they wear out, very quickly in a snowy climate. I once worked on a large building installing a roof where we put all the ice and water shield and the synthetic down on the roof to waterproof it so the other trades could get in to do plumbing, electrical etc. It snowed heavily as soon as we were done, then thawed and froze and repeated for about a week after. Once the roof had melted off, we went back up only to discover all the ice and water was full of holes from the action of the ice freezing and thawing over top of it. What this means is that this material is not made to withstand direct exposure to the elements; Rather it is a stop gap measure made to use as an underlay under a weatherproof barrier such as shingles. What happens when you try to use an underlay as some kind of drip edge or apron substitute is that it wears out that first 2-3 inches or whatever you have over hanging and once it wears out, creates a leak behind the gutter and/or on the fascia. Not to mention if you were to run this down over a gutter, how would you ever replace the gutter? Or rehang it if the screws got loose?
Regardless, I see probably about a dozen houses a year where the drip edge has to be replaced and put up underneath the underlay to stop leakage behind the gutter. Some of which did not have any issues until 15 years after the roof was installed. This is an EXTREMELY labour intensive and expensive job, costing the home owner sometimes thousands of dollars. So, please listen when I say: The drip is to be put down first, ice and water goes over top to seal down to the drip edge and prevent leaks behind the gutter. Grand Roofing is 100% right about this. If it makes you feel better go ahead and put another layer under the drip edge, although that's gonna get a little expensive!
All that being said, for the dozen or so roofs a year I see with this problem, I see hundreds if not thousands a year done the other way around that have no issues until the day they get re-roofed. So, I guess it's a bit of a lottery in a way. As my long ago foreman once told me, "If it don't leak, you did it right!" Such prophetic words! I hope these ramblings help someone out!
Good evening. Are you open for providing professional advice?
High value comment
Southerners ignore this, unless you have many freezing weather conditions.
if you install water and ice over the gutter apron in the northern part of USA, guarantee ice damming damage. Water and ice can last as long as the shingles when installed correctly. the most common fail is when the water and ice is mangled, ripped, or too short, mainly because it isn't showing past the gutter apron, before the gutter is install. needs to cover the deck and onto the fascia. the gutter needs to be in between the water and ice and gutter apron to prevent ice damming.
like 1" or 2" past the gutter apron makes it easy for the gutter guys to install without damaging the water and ice. a lot of time roofers will do a good job installing the water and ice, but at times, the roofers will have it cut flush with the gutter apron, making it easy for the gutter guys to crush or rip the material.
however the second biggest reason i see fails with water and ice, is not having enough hangers as well. a lot of gutter installer, just cannot understand that ice is heavy and a full gutter of ice can bend out the gutter, away from the fascia, when there isn't plenty of hangers. 😅😅😅 ice gets behind and melts.
i love seeing how gutter installers calling 20"- 28" (5" gutter, hangfast style) hanger space, over kill.
ahhh well, just sharing a professional word for those installing gutters in the Northern parts of USA, take or leave it, ill continue to install and repair gutters regardless what yah think.
In my 33 years of roofing I install on top on the bottom edge metal and under the edge metal going up the rakes.
That's what the code say. On rake side it's wind that matters more and water are not supposed to come down on the rake side. So IWS under is better.
Worked for a company whose roofers put a cut roll of flashing tape over the very edge of sheathing, and then down over the facia. it maybe went about 6 to 8 inches up the decking, and about a half inch to an inch on to the facia (depends if it was sub-facia or the facia metal was already there). It was more like flashing tape (thicker butyl with a smooth face) than ice-n-water.
Then they would install drip-edge metal, and then ice-n-water over that. According to them, this prevented any chance of water/ice that might get under the drip edge from rotting the edge of the decking. They said they used the tape they did because it stuck better, and naturally filled nail holes from installing the metal. They just used the extra tape on the bottom of slopes where there would be gutter, not up the sides on gables.
They also used it down the valley (I think it was 10" wide, maybe 8") and the ice-n-water over top. They mentioned that ice-n-water had a tendency to tear if stressed enough, where the tape they used had quite a bit of stretch to it.
This added 150 to 300 in materials to each job, but seemed worth it for the added insurance against leaks and ice/water backing up and ruining wood.
I always install on top it only makes sense to me.love your videos I'm learning lots of things that I didn't know so I appreciate your videos,GOD BLESS YOU AND YOUR FAMILY
You have a lot of experience, i do a lot of roof repair and a lot of people don’t know how to properly do a roof
about 20 years ago we ran the I&W under the metal but also started cutting a 6" strip for the top. Best thing to do and never had any sort of problems along the eaves or rakes. Also if new gutters were to be installed. 2" of the I&W would be brought down onto the fascia and the new metal would cover.
A master carpenter who writes for carpenter journals used ice and water 10 in. to 12in. wide brings it over the fascia a little bit then he installs the drip edge then installs the full sheet of ice and water over the drip.
What the video guy is saying is that if you wrap IWS over fascia then drip edge on top that and more IWS on top that: if water gets under the drip edge it can easily just run down IWS onto framing fascia and into soffit and into house.
Seems to me the real answer is a drip edge on the framing fascia and drip edge on trim fascia (with some sort of weep holes in the fascia trim to empty ant water running down framing fascia.)
I usually always go above it, only case is when it's a lower slope, I just cut a small strip that wraps down the fascia, assumming there's no gutter there, then slap the eave metal on and then I continue overtop with a full 3ft width roll.
But most houses and homeowners don't really want you taking off their gutters and reinstalling them just to put ice and water on the fascia a few inches. So most times it's just laid overtop of the drip edge, either way has its pros/cons but one can only be done if theres no gutter on
You analyze roofs just like I do, I always do ice water over drip and under drip on gables
It depends on the pitch for me, lower pitches i put the i&w first, but roll it about an inch over the facia, steeper pitches i don't mind putting it on top of the metal. Gable ends i always put the paper then the drip. Lots of times I'll also zip tape from the drip edge onto the smooth Ice and water shield..
So I watched a TON of your videos before replacing the roof on my mom's house myself. it's just a ranch style house, 22 square, 4/12 pitch with a center chimney. I placed GAF storm guard down first (across the bottom and up the gables) and laid it an inch over the facia. Then I ran drip edge across the bottom. I put GAF deck armor over top all of that making sure that I covered all the nails in the drip edge. Then I ran my drip edge up the gables to hold down the ends of the underlayment.
My logic was that the drip edge nails would be "sealed" by the properties of the storm guard and the Deck armor would shed any water that got through the shingles all the way to the edge of the drip and into the gutters.
I still don't know if it's right or wrong! haha! But that's what I settled on doing.
Everything you just described sounds good 👍
@@GrandRoofingInc I also used the Miami-Dade nailing schedule since well nails are cheap. And there are zero improperly placed or exposed nails.
I worked in standing seam metal roofing for a couple years back in the mid 90's but I'd never done a shingle roof before this project. Your videos were SUPER helpful. Thanks!
5:57 The real way to do a gutter apron -on NEW construction, would be to first wrap your ice/shield over roof onto the fascia board...then put on your gutter apron...then put another piece of "underlayment" on top of gutter apron as usual. The reason is because ice can start below the apron inside of a gutter and then get it's way behind the apron and go backwards/upwards. Having the ice/shield stuck to the fascia takes care of that issue. As I said, you then have to have an underlayment as usual to go over the apron.
As for existing construction that wasn't done right.... if there's an issue like you have here, then yes, you would take down that aluminum fascia and the apron when you are re-shingling and get it all done right.
I agree you learn more with what we call field experience
When there are gutters on the house ice dams would damage facia and soffit if ice and water went on top of drip. Nothing wrong with a strip under the drip. Then ice and water over drip. Here in Boston code calls for 6 feet of ice and water on all starter edges. I’ve seen ice dams big enough where I can literally walk on them to chop reservoirs to release the damming water. Nothing wrong with over and under. Just don’t let the ice and water go below the drip where it’s visible. Keep up the good work.
Thank you for being the only other person I've heard address this issue. Code in La. is under drip edge on rakes and over drip edge on eaves. But it's a flawed system regardless of how it's installed in my opinion bc water gets through eventually either way.
The real issue here is the drip edge was installed too tight to the fascia, causing it to stick up and eliminating pitch on the last shingle. On low pitched roofs, I always leave a slight gap between the fascia and drip for this reason. I would rather see the last shingle droop down a bit then stick up on a low pitch. Yes, ice and water on top of the metal may have prevented the leak, but ice and water should never be part of your first line of defense. Ice and water is there to REDUCE damage when the shingles fail (shingle blows off, ice dam creates pool of water, etc)
You my friend are correct!!! That’s what I’ve experienced with my own roof , thanks Ryan 👍
Done it both ways. Come to putting i&w down first then metal for the fact it sticks to all the wood. Feel more confident doing it this way when ice damns occur. If the metals being left on for re-roofing i&w will be rolled over the top of the metal.
New roof: Under the drip edge, 1 to 1.5" on to the fascia. I then place synthetic over the drip edige and the rest of the roof. Makes it easier for the next roofer to rip off the roof. Old roof: over the drip.
Always Any dry in under edge metal. ! Tar starter in place And shingle And no water wicking or Wind driven water of any kind ?? FLORIDA Roofer ! no HatE Been Doing It 35 YEAR CONTRACTOR ! u the MAN ☺️!
I need some guidance, i live in Houston and my house was built in 1975, I have some rotten roof decking and I have some rotten fascia. I'm getting ready to re-do my roof and was wondering should I replace all my fascia first before I start on the tare off or replace the fascia after the tare off? But I was thinking the old drip edge is in my way of replacing the fascia, so I might have to demo the roof first and then replace the fascia, then new drip edge, then roof? Also, the original fascia is two pieces of wood. First a 3/4" thick with a six inch profile but over that is another 3/4" thick piece of wood but it barely sticks out below the 1 1/2" drip edge. All the houses in my neighborhood are like this but can't find anyone online or TH-cam referencing this style of fascia. Maybe because I don't know the proper name for it? IDK, im guessing it's called step fascia or something like that? Any help regarding that would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
I am just a homeowner, so I am learning multiple things from every one of your videos. At 8:54-8:55, I think you are saying, if you are not going to take the gutter off, then you would want the i&w to lap over into the gutter, rather than down the fascia. If that is what you meant to say, I don't think you ever want i&w lapping down into the gutter because in a big rain storm the gutter is going to be full, water will work its way up behind the i&w, and in the winter, freeze-thaw will destroy the i&w adhered on the gutter side. I like your suggestion that drip edge should always be installed at least 1/4" beyond the eave edge. That way the bottom angle will be far enough away from the fascia to actually function as a drip edge. Otherwise, water is going to climb/creep up the fascia behind the drip edge, and not dry out very fast. My comments are based on my own observations around my home of 38 years.
I was talking about the gutter because some people tell me I need to take them down and install ice and water over the face of the facia bored. I don't see anyone removing gutters to put ice in water down. The biggest thing is making sure if you put it down before apron it goes over the face of something other than wood. That's why I'm a fan of putting adequate sized apron down then installing ice and water on top of that to seal everything off.
@@GrandRoofingInc That makes sense, . . . not leaving any wood exposed that could get waterlogged and rot out. In the high country in Colorado, local building codes require Ice&Water over the entire field of the roof, not just along eave edges, gable edges, valleys, transitions, hips, and ridges. I have seen some online discussions that I&W over OSB can make it impossible to re-roof without tearing off all the roofing materials, including the OSB, because the I&W cannot be peeled off once it hits wood or metal. That might be a reason not to attach I&W to apron, because a tear off would get even more expensive and time consuming if all the metal had to be replaced at the same time. But I am not a roofer and do not have any personal experience. I just read it online. Also, the slope of the roof and the angle of the fascia can make a difference as to how well a drip edge or apron functions. Flat roofs will have more water lingering in the fascia area and getting wind-driven against the fascia, whereas on 4:12 or steeper, water will drip more freely to the ground. I am still thinking about the idea that drip edge or apron where the bottom edge is clamped against the fascia is prone to not releasing drops of water, instead just holding them against the fascia for absorption and eventual popping of paint. This might be an argument for making sure the fascia is 100% vinyl or metal. Also, I wish they made I&W that came with synthetic on the surface. It is less safe for the roofer to work on slippery synthetic, but I believe I&W has a sticky surface in hot weather, and a metal roof will oil-can if it cannot slide when expanding & contracting in hot weather because it will be stuck to the I&W. This might be an argument for covering a full roof of I&W with another layer of synthetic. Or then there is Huber Zip System and Georgia Pacific Forcefield, but I don't know if they get sticky in hot weather. I think their water proofing comes from chemical preservative, but I have not heard anyone describe what exactly produces the water proofing. Maybe you could address this question in a future video. Sorry I put so much in this comment.
Grace I and W actually addressed this and there specs are to install a 12" roll under the edging and fold an inch over fascia followed by edging followed by 36" roll overlapping the edging. The layer under the edging is extremely important! If and when your gutter freezes and "backs up" it will get directly under your edging as this is the easiest point of resistance for the water to escape, and if you put edging down over bare roof then that bare wood will be the first to rot. This is a highly debated topic, I have 20+ yrs as a builder but people with more experience can disagree all they want, I just refer to manufacturer specs. You know, if directions and warrantees mean anything to any other business owners.... But what do the manufacturers know about the product they make? More than some roofing laborer who thinks because water "runs down" it will never leak.
If installed improperly voids warranty... 🤔✌️🙏💪👍☝️🎯
That is a 50:50 question…. Don’t have to run ice/water on drip line in oregon, but valleys obviously. Always put 1x3 under the ice/water and safeguard underlayment over the drip.
we had mr roof do our roof here, i watched the whole thing and we have gutters , they put a apron i guess it was kinda like drip edge but larger on to the edge then hung into gutter, then ice and water on the top of it then the shingle on the top and they all over hung into the gutter a tad so they all drip into the gutter
On top, because just like you said water backing up,if the ice and water is stuck to the top of the gutter apron, the bottom of the gutter apron is metal against wood, so 3in of unprotected wood, remember water backing up.
So ice and water stuck down 100% to the fascia, then gutter apron, and run underlayment over both or add a strip of self stick membrane on top of the apron, so it cost more but the is for top tier quality only.
Also underlayment over ice and water help with the next tear off, because shingles can stick to ice and water causing a extra headache
I disagree with ice and water shield going on top of the drip edge. Not sure if you're in the Northeast but out here in the winter, sometimes gutters freeze up very badly and when that happens, the drip edge is pushed up from the expanded ice thus exposing the top of the fascia board where it meets the plywood. Now you have an area that is vulnerable for water to drip back into and is a really bad scenario especially for houses that don't have an overhang. The correct ways to put the ice and water shield on first and even go as far as to getting it behind the gutter about a half inch or an inch. Even if that means loosening the gutter system. Then put your drip edge on. In the event you have missing shingles from some storm and water runs behind the shingles and down the underlayments, whatever water runs behind the drip edge will run off the ice and water shield and into the gutter. But I don't know about anyone else, my roof systems don't typically have missing shingles for this to be an issue regardless. We've been doing it that way for over 15 years and have never had a single issue. Another thing is the way this installer put his drip edge on. It's barely nailed. That's why they're such a flat slope at the bottom. No wonder water got in the seams and ran the way it did. No matter who's right or wrong, I can say that doing it our way hasn't caused a single issue in the last 15 years with our ice and water going down first before the drip edge. And we've had some pretty insane storms out here in Connecticut.
Ice and water down and wrap onto the subfascia board, place drip edge and run another small 4 inch wide length of zip tape over the upper seam of drop edge to connect it to the ice and water shield. That way any ice damns or gutter blockages don’t get up under the drip edge and do what you see in your video, it’ll also allow passage over the drip edge if any compromise happens up the roof.
Follow that methodology for eave and rake edges and flashing.
Ive got new sheathing and fascia, I'm up in manitoba rain, wind, snow and ice. I don't want water under drip edge, rotting wood and lifting ice and water shield? I think I need something under and over drip edge? The manufactor of material I'm using states adhere it to facsia.
yes you would run your ice and water over the edge and over the fascia. If you are using an apron and you want extra insurance I would put a strip over the top as well. I only stated going over because, let's face it nobody wraps it over the face they just go over or under. Going over will at least seal to the apron which will cover over your fascia and into a gutter if you have one.
Friendly discussion -- Ice & water OVER gutter apron and UNDER gable drip edge. Case closed!
My old boss always made us go under unless we were leaving the old
Edge on. Now that I run my own business I go over all around
I didn't talk about it this video but we do after transitioning to synthetic run the paper all the way up and then run the gables drip on top of that. The thinking behind that is if anything jumps the rib on the Gable metal it will be on the paper. But honestly that is way less important to me than the bottom apron. Thanks for the feedback.
Great video, great comments.
Drip edge or apron flashing? If you use drip edge on a lower slope is it going to push the edge shingles up and create an opportunity for wicking water back or even ponding along the edge? Isn't the drip edge designed to be at 90°, rather than an apron that is made for the slope of the roof to the vertical fascia? Or are there types that are angled properly? If you have a gutter (and around here we always do) is having a drip extension still a good idea?
Since there's no gutter on this home, the use of Drip edge is the problem here, as it is raising the shingle at the roof edge. Custom edge metal or Gutter apron would have been better, as both would have been bent to match the roof pitch
How about ice & water then put starter roll comes in 30 foot roll and it’s peel and stick just like ice&water? ( over the apron )I see a lot of roofers using drip edge instead of apron don’t think it’s right , just not enough meat going up the roof. Good video 👍👍
If ice and water is going to go down 1st it really should go over the facial border a little. So any potential backing up of water needs to get out over any facial metal. As far as the peeling stick starter I'm not a fan of it, if it's what I'm thinking of it's not near as thick as starter shingles.
I am not a Contractor but this question seems to be a never ending battle with no one actually presenting a responsible, well thought out, answer! Until recently, that is! My name is Ed. I am on my wifes account because I do not do social media. We are getting ready to have a roof installed within the next two weeks and I asked that question of every Contractor that quoted my roof. Understand that I did extensive research on roof installations and if it weren't for my age, I could probably install the roof myself. But...... I finally had one Contractor that actually gave me the ONLY answer that made any sense! He said: The Ice and Water Shield goes "under" the Drip Edge. I asked him why and this was his response: "The bottom row of shingles has to stick to the Drip Edge. The Tar Strip on the bottom of the shingle needs to stick directly to the drip edge because if there were strong, hurricane winds, (we reside in Florida) there would be a good chance the Ice and water shield would be able to be blown off the Drip Edge, along with the Shingles on the bottom row! That was the only "reasonable" answer anyone gave me!
Just an observation. Over anything else you may put down and under the shingles, many manufacturers require a starter strip, usually their own, to have their warranty. Seems to me your roofer is not using a starter strip if he says the shingles must stick to the drip edge.
What was your solution here? DId you advise the customer to just pull off the bottom 4 foot and replace or the whole roof? It seems to me that while that would save some money you are then taking ownership of everything done above.... Not sure if I would be willing to do that.
Well, apron, ribbon, drip edge...how many words csn we make up to keep our trade a secret?
Over on the eaves and under the metal on the rakes
No matter what,can we do both?
I always run ice and water under the apron then apron then synthetic felt. If your going on top I would recommend priming the edge metal like you would for sbs. Sbs on low slope is the same base down first, edge metal primed then cap sheet. Just my opinion
Watch the this old house video on how to shingle. Ice and water shield run over fascia but behind drip edge (so you dont see it), offset drip edge from fascia a half inch to prevent wicking, offset shingle past drip edge a half inch to further prevent wicking. If you do it this way I dont think water could get under the drip edge, but i guess you could put ice and water shield above and below the drip edge to be safe.
It looks like they did not bring the aluminum fascia up to bottom of drip edge which isnt helping as well.
Drip edge is the first thing that goes on then ice shield then your synthetic paper all the way then run your rake edge dip edge last.. Then metal or shingle...
I don't use gutters on my new builds. For a little more money, I put a 3' wide band of 4" thick concrete around the perimeter of the building, thus avoiding all the gutter problems mentioned here. Besides, what good is a gutter in a torrential downpour....
IWS is a better tar paper - so should be above the apron or the drip edge. My house had the tar paper tucked in the drip edge at eaves, and it is BAD - run down water get into the front wall and rot some deck boards cuz drip edge is slightly above the end of the tar paper.
I'm with you, OVER is the way to go.
Preferably, I like adhere to the wood, metal, than synthetic all the way over the metal.
Ice and water always over the apron. Also the drip edge/apron should always have a slight gap between the fascia metal and drip edge/apron.
Also where is the gutters?
Usually if you just loosely put the drip edge on its good to go. If there's fascia metal then there's not really any need to have a gap at all as the fascia metal is protecting the actual wooden fascia board behind it from water contact
But i mean the roof in the video is kinda iffy, the fascia metal should have been higher up, even a small lip on the top side to lay onto the roof edge
A problem is they build cheap houses in that area. You can start down on the wall below. The moisture barrier is usually junk material applied by inexperienced untrained workers. Right here in this house you can see they did not put the moisture barrier to the top of the wall, and it's barely attached . Then they put on the cheap tin soffit and junk vinyl siding.
Exactly...
It's amazing how many have no idea what they are doing. How is it thst we the home owners know more than the contractors. I had to ask them 10 times to put the gutter apron on and when they finally did they put it over the paper. Sane with valleys. They put the valley paper on last instead of first. Many don't even watch them and they get away with it.
Apron, then ice and water.
You do both I&W under the metal and over it. Metal condensates not good for the raw plywood.
Always above
Where was starter strip you lift one shingle and see drip edge
Chimney stack above is probably the issue, that’s to much of a leak for just weeping back IMO
Always over, even paper. Low slope gets a sealant under the starter.
I need 1 of those ladder stand offs please send info..
There should be a link down below to Amazon
Ladder Stabilizer Standoff
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@@GrandRoofingInc Thank you
@@joshuawilson1989 I had to modify mine just slightly with a hatchet to get it to fit. I did do a video on it so you can see before you order it, but it is definitely one of my favorite tools besides my mag hatchet.
@@GrandRoofingInc I ordered the hatchet..
Always drip edge on top of underlayment then underlayment then shingles.
Ice & water above apron
I see a lot of you voice your preferences but none speak of code in certain areas. And certainly the region, the snow and the ice. I get it though it’s what makes sense but if it does go by code and your ready to sell good luck on inspection. People think bout the now but if it fail inspection it has to be done over anyways. Just my opinion (2cents)
Always metal first then ice and water barrier then starter then shingles. Elementary my friend
Great observation and inspection as always! Hope you went back with some type of goo gone cleaner and a rag. lol
Got bored on just after this video, the rain washed it off.
50 years of being a roofer and roofing contractor 2nd generation. Just retired. If you live anywhere in cold climates with snow then you better cover your a$$. Ice and water shield 3" over the gutter board 6' up the roof or 2' inside the interior wall line. Drip edge with caulk under the nailed edge. 6" ice shield cover strip over drip. Then cover ice shield with underlayment so the shingles don't stick to ice shield( because if you let them stick they will only come off if it's 80 degrees).
18” under, full roll over
It goes over
That looks like a manufactured home, built to HUD codes, not IBC or IRC!
How about over and under that's what I've done for the last 15 years
Over the drip, under the rake.
Because of being in NE Ohio I overkill..I take gutter off wrap my ice over fascia goin down 4-5 inches then run a row over my drip edge..fuck ice dams...also when I worked for a big company we took every gutter off to wrap ice down and siding off to wrap all walls up 6 inches
This is the way, don't let people tell you "you don't need to do what in your professional opinion needs to be done". Have integrity, do every job with standards and tell the first cheap corner cutting budget pinching homeowner (politely) that you are not the contractor for them. Always under the edging or ice dams will getcha
Ice and water or paper always over the top.
Under the apron and over the edge
Of plywood to fascia
Ice and water over
Under makes sense to me
I sandwich it my dude
Over
Florida code requires under
Got a similar problem on my home. Seems this is an all too common problem. Can't figure out why this happens, it is as if the edge of a roof is always the weak link in the whole process. You would think by now roofers would have figured out how to fix this problem. Maybe they do and it is intentional to insure more work for them in the future. Don't want to dis you but with all your talking on the subject in this video I still have no idea why this happens and what the fix is. Would like a video with a lot less gobbledygook talking and just show us how to prevent this. That is the advantage of videos - we want to see the solution not hear talking about it.