Pistol Red Dot Zeroing w/ Mike Pannone
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Today on the 1911 Syndicate we're with Mike Pannone looking at the process and distance at which to zero a pistol red dot. This footage is from the 2 day class we did with our Patreon community. You can find Mike's classes at CTT Solutions. - บันเทิง
Yup, I was one of them. We all showed up with 7-10 yard Zero’s. He challenged us. 15 Students against 1 Instructor. He believed in what he was teaching and he made his point loud and clear. Great instructor, great channel. 1 Million Subscribers on the way.
🍻
Thanks for coming out Steve you’re the man and we throughly appreciate your support and friendship
@@Chrisblau it was my pleasure. Looking forward to the next class. You guys are class act. You have my respect, loyalty, cooperation, friendship, and resources at will. I’d come back to Utah in a heartbeat when the time comes.
I have a pistol with iron sights that seem to be zeroed close, maybe 7 yards. I hate it. No confidence when shooting beyond 10 yards.
@shuumai i dont think companies ever zero pistols for 7 yards usually 15 to 25
I told my wife that i watched this and I need 2000 rounds to confirm the 15 yard zero on father's day😅
Hell yeah!
Lol me to😅
I prefer and use a 25yd zero. That being said, I shot the Scott Jedlinski class next to a guy with a 10yd zero. Our groups were almost the same at all distances.
Doesn’t Scott have you zero the dot standing up?
I know this is an old post but I just put a red dot on my 19x. It’s my first pistol dot. When I zeroed I shot about 50 rounds from 10-20 yards when I zeroed it and the groups were nearly indistinguishable from to 10-20. The main difference was the grouping being ever so slightly larger at 20. I used the same point of aim from 10-20 yards. I zeroed with hollow points and checked zero with ball. I wonder if most of these people are shooting 115 grain. All I shoot is 124 now. I quit buying anything else unless an ammo deal with a shooting class purchase. I’ve noticed a lot more accuracy fluctuations with 115 even with iron sights. I’ve noticed much less accuracy fluctuations with 124. I would also never want to zero with cheap training ammo. People don’t shoot good ammo during training.
I zero at 100 because I’m a Chad.
Had the honor to take a week-long carbine class with Mike. He talks the talk AND walks the walk. Every drill, Mike did. Even the "impossible" ones. Listen to what Mike says, and you are guaranteed to learn. Good video. Bravo!
Thank you so much. I'm a brand new Red Dot optic user and I went to a local indoor range last week to zero it but only did it at 7 yards. I'm going to go back today and do it again at 15 yards.
New to red dot world and have been watching a lot of “how to zero red dots in.” This is by far the greatest one. Most informational and practical teaching for using this tool on top of my pistol. Much appreciated sir.
🍻
Mike knows what he is talking about. Fortunate he came on the channel
Mike Pannone one of the best instructors I’ve ever seen. Really good guy extremely humble and knows his sh*T inside n out!!!
He’s really good at explaining his points, I love when they can make me understand why their method is solid
I like and agree with his emphasis of "tune the tool THEN tune yourself" (my paraphrase). 14:18 sums it up - "Once you've got a good [mechanical] zero the tool will do whatever YOU can do with it."
Lot of good info here.
Gotta redo my zero at 15 yards and make sure I'm doing it from a rest.
IMHO, it really does not matter so long as you are not zero'd at 5 yards. 10,15,20,25 all put shots out to 50 yards inside a plus or minus 1-2 inch zone. Send it, practice. Don't suck.
I’m so glad that Mike challenged us on this. He does an excellent job of walking you through the why. Great class. So happy I was there for it. 🤙🏼
My man Josh. Thank you for coming out we appreciate your support and for making the effort to come all the way out here. Hope all is well brother 👊🏼
Cheers mate
Outstanding video. Very surprised at some of the other videos on this subject whereby the "expert" didn't rest the pistol to zero it. The explanation for the 15 yd. vs 10 yd. zero is also excellent. Bravo...
🍻. Yea I mean I’m no expert but zeroing a dot without taking out as much human error is possible, that’s just odd
Well I just bought the 407c for my G19, I really needed this video. Thank you I definitely learned something.
This is what I am telling you. Now you do it see for yourself. Probably one of the most effective teaching methods out there.
Very true! One major factor in all pistol shooting beyond 15 yards is THE QUALITY OF YOUR VISION.
@@rik4369 I’ve worn bi-focals since I was 9 years old. I can ring a 2/3 IPSIC steel target at 100 yards with most of my handguns but red dots make it SO much easier. As I get older I’ll take every advantage I can get. I prefer the Vulcan ACSS Pistol reticle.
Mike Pannone is a complete STUD! I’m so bummed I missed this class!
I just did 15 yard zero because i wanted the full length of the house
Tonight on 1911 Syndicate: Mike Pannone is the smartest man on the channel, Patrons members are focred to be around Crispy, and the AZ Yeti almost finds someone as tall as him....
We don’t let crispy into social scenarios very often. Try to keep him caged to the extent possible
@@1911syndicate For the safety of the galaxy.
Almost. Almost 😂😂😂
Jokes on you that’s his faja
@@PaulyP_13 correct my dad attended the class which was pretty cool
I really enjoyed this video and learning from what he was demonstrating. Great work as always guys and keep it up.
I literally shot my EPS Carry for the first time ever today, and then I saw this. I thought 15 yards was a good balance. I got lucky there. I cant wait to get back out and try some of the things I learned here. Thanks again for sharing this!
Hell yeah Dan that’s awesome hoe stay when we hear stuff like this as cheesy as it sounds it makes it all worth it. Glad the content was useful dude 👊🏼
I want MORE Mike Pantone with you guys!!!!!! ❤👍🤗
Outstanding. I literally zeroed an optic at 10 this past weekend. Looks like I'll try for 15 this weekend. 👍👍
I’m sticking to 10 myself
Great time, been shooting guns for about 30 years and this class taught me how terrible i really am at shooting. 😎
Can’t wait for the next one!
Hahaha 🤙🏻
You’re the man 👊🏼 such a great class
Just attended a class with this guy. Amazing instructor!
Right? Such a good instructor and human being
Great video. Amature here. I've seen a few videos on zeroing optics and the recurring zero distance seems to be 15 yards. I'll be installing my first optic sight with cowitness and setting it up at 15 yards. Thank you for the video.
I absolutely enjoyed this video and I’m now going to zero my red dot at 15 yards. This makes a lot of sense to me now.
Hell yea! Great info, makes alot of sense to zero at 15
Very Helpful, wish you would have talked more about holdover/under after zeroing the red dot!
Superb video! Always learning stuff from you dudes!
Damn this just increased my desire to attend a pistol or rifle course somewhere here in Texas soon!
DO IT
Let's go!
Ive had the fortune of meeting Mike at a couple of LE conferences, and he really is a great guy. Easy to talk too, very humble and a wealth of knowledge.
Mike is excellent. I really need to take some classes. These look like a lot of fun.
So glad to see you guys put this info out from M.P. soaking up that knowledge.
Yes sir tried to learn as much as possible and he’s a wealth of knowledge. Really great class we had a blast and lots of training and learning was had
My first Red dot zero was at 10 yds and through alot of shooting almost 2yrs ago I switched to the 15 yd zero and haven't turned back
This makes absolute sense. I had my EDCCW zeroed for 7-10 yards. Great groupings at that distance. But move out to 25-30 yards, I'm off the paper. I need to adjust my zero ASAP.
Same lol
When was the last time you had your eyes checked? I am 63 years old, shot on The Marine Corps Rifle Team. My vision has decline since I left the military. I wear glasses but without them I would be in trouble beyond 25 yards with a pistol. I could hit a person but hardly as accurate as my younger eyes.
Just a thought to offer your situation.
Goodluck
Very sound pistol doctrine in this vid. Topic was important and relevant. Vid length was ideal for the topic. Scads of pertinent, critical info to soak up. Great instructor. More short form please.
Great video and I like Mike's explanation and reasoning!
This is why they call Sir Noner, the "Professor".
👊🏼👊🏼👊🏼
I only shoot for competition purposes with a 6MOA dot - I’ll start with a 15 yard zero on a rest with a Splatterburst so I can easily see the adjustments ( assuming this is a confirm - zeroing a new optic is a different procedure) - then I confirm standing @ 10 yards to see if my grip etc is causing any shift - then I test at 25 from the rest to see how my match ammo is reacting - I’ll also do a group at 5 yards to see any holdover for close in targets - I’m not shooting bullseye or typically any shots over 30 so I don’t get crazy with the cheezwiz - a rested 5 shot 2”- 3” fairly concentric group @ 15 is practically accurate enough a zero for my purposes
He seems to be an outstanding instructor.
Good to hear, always zero my personal handguns at 15 for the same reasons. I zero many handguns for friends, students and customers and I have seen some whacked out reasons and zeroes requested, but their gun is their gun lol. "I don't care" was my answer as well, know your weapon and know your zero and ranges with that zero. OMAM
Really great video I'm sure everyone had a amazing time 👊🏻
Solid info from Pannone… as usual 👍🏻🇺🇸🏴☠️
Great Video - thanks for the instructional content.
This was exactly what i was looking for.
I just completely took the sights off my gun. It's a glizzy with a switch, and I live in southside Chicago. It's more of an "accuracy by volume" place
You got that hit a 5 year old across the street special.
I think this is highly dependent on the round you’re using. According to my ballistic calc, I have half the drop at 50yds using a 10yd zero. -0.8” vs -1.8” with a 15yd zero.
I’m not convinced, but I’m going to test it!
147gr 9mm @ 875fps (128pf) guessing BC as .200
Wait someone using actual calcs? Well it makes sense to let the ballistics decide. Hell you can point shoot a man size target
Chances are your red dot is larger than that difference and you’re not a good enough shooter to even notice. Lastly, pistol rounds are horrible. They rely on velocity. Maybe pick something with a little more.
His point in the video is that holdover can be accounted for, and matters far less than a poor zero. If you're zero is 2 deg. off center at 10 yards it will only be 1" right or left which is negligible, but at 50 yds you will be 6" left or right VS a 25 yrd zero where you would only be 1-2" off left or right. The difference in precision based on balistics is small but the difference in accuracy is large. Fundamentally if you are zero'd at 10yds you simply have no idea how good your zero actually is until you test it at 25+ because a small error in zero is compounded
This video actually helped a lot,very informative for sure 👍
Everyone gets to define thier own task and standards, I have decided that I should be capable of hitting d zone target at 100 yards, now this issue gets a little more complicated at this distance, considering point of aim/impact shift at 100 given your zero distance but also different bullet weight, the question is what do you find acceptable, I like two different bullet weights 125gr+p 145gr+p hollow points, at 25 yards there is a 5 inch poi shift between the loads, 8 inches at 50 and about 10 to 12 at 100, I have found for my standards a 7 yard zero with 125gr bullet gives a max ordinance of about 3.5 inches at 60 yards and a drop of about 2 inches at 100, I can hold high thoracic for both loadings and make consistent hits at 100, your mileage may vary
Height over bore for a red dot pistol is definitely more than 1/4”.
Top of sights is 1/4 barrel to middle of dot is 1/2-3/4inch. Mike was more trying to make a point
I caught that as well. Shoot a round through a target and then hold your dot on that hole from 3 yards away and fire a second shot. You'll definitely be low, closer to an inch.
As it happens I took my rmr off last night so I could change out my rear irons. When I get everything re-installed later today. I’m going to the range for a skills and drills night. I’ll be going early and trying out a 15 yard zero.
🤙🏻
Great video! Really good information!
"all my dots are zeroed, so i'll just throw this video on as background noise, while i work"... by the end of the video... "well, gotta finish up work, so i can go re-zero all my red dots" LMFAO! i wasn't even gonna watch this one
Hahaha that’s great
Noner is a legend. And that's an understatement.
You guys just got a new subscriber good stuff right here.
I took Scott Jedlinski's class and since then always used the 10yd zero unsupported, but I think I'm gonna try out this method and distance.
Supported is just not it. There’s a reason to Scott’s madness… human error
@Gun punch 🧉 If I recall correctly, Scott's rationale is that zeroing unsupported takes into account your natural "pendulum", which really is different from the rifle world where we try to take out as much human error as possible. Do you remember his rationale for unsupported?
I would definitely zero as stable as possible. But that’s just me
@@musicman1eanda 100% agree
Jedlinski says a 10 yard zero will only be .7 of an inch high at 25. Mike believes it to be much higher. Should be easy to see who is correct.
Depends on ammo, velocity and height over bore. Glock 19 with PMC 124gr FMJ and a holosun 507C, best zero is 7yards. Gives the flattest trajectory out to 100 yards
G19 Holosun 507
PMC 9mm 124gr FMJ
7 yard zero = +2.5 inches @ 50 yards, -2.22 inches at 100 yards, -8 in @ 125, -16 @ 150
G26 with 407 ACSS
Hornady Critical Defense 124gr Hollow Point
8 yard zero = +2 @ 50, -2.7 @ 100, -8.3 @ 125, -16.5 @ 150
Frosty saucy and go fasty. This needs to be on a shirt 👍👍
Mike is awesome, I met him through mutal friends. I can't wait to take one of his classes
Well done Sir. Thank you.
Great video , thanks guys. Back to the range to try 15 yard zero.
Helps to plug this into a ballistic calculator because shots go pretty low from 30-70 yards, where this is much less pronounced with a 25 yard zero.
I feel better not having to worry about holds too much and the 25 yard zero does that best for my setup.
You hit higher with a 10 yard zero than with a 25 yard zero.
Does not matter. 10 yard zero is ~1 inch high at 50 and 25 yard zero is ~1 inch low at 50. 25 yard zero is right in the middle. Literally does not matter.
How often are you shooting your pistol at 70 yards?
@@lucasblanchard47 pretty often in USPSA
@@MellowFellowOfYellow I find that incredibly hard to believe haha
I am not a steady enough shot to use the technique taught in the video, so I had to figure out a way that would work for me. I clamped my empty pistol, barrel down, under a light bright enough to see the three iron sights. I held my head so the front sight is properly aligned in the rear sights. My Sig P365XL has combat sights which mean that when aligned this way the bullet will go to the target where the center of the circle on the back side of the front sight is. If a gun uses non-combat sights the target should sit on top of the front sight. Using the adjustment screws on the red dot sight I moved the red dot so that it sits in the center of the front sight, which is where the bullet would go to. Now the bullet will go where the red dot is which is where the iron sights are also aimed. Voila! The red dot is zeroed without wasting any bullets. The results are good when I shoot the target at the range. I am open to any criticisms of this technique.
Well done instruction, he is intense but is an awesome instructor.
I use a 10yd zero because it's where my local range sets their pistol targets.
I had previously zeroed my Glock at 10 yds, little did I know that I would be high when moved to 25yds. I then zeroed for 25yds. Nice to learn the math from this video. Now I want to test at 10 yds with the 25yd zero.
Personally I use an 8 yard zero and find point of aim and impact is pretty close at 25-35 yards. I'll have to try the 15 and see how that works for me
45 ACP seems to behave differently. I zero SIG Romeo 1 Pro 3moa at 15 yards. Cut holes. Move back to 40 yards on the rangefinder & my optic ready SIG Legion P220 patterns rather low, but windage is good.
Excellent vid. Thank you.
He did not explain the optic to bore ballistics for the cartridge, 9mm, as a standard. A diagram would explain the advantage of picking a mean line of sight from 10 to 40 yards where the ballistics of 9mm shoot like a laser.
Best explanation I've seen any where
Nails it right?
Guess I’m gonna have to get some Oakleys, FDE shirt & pants, and grow a beard
When this gentleman speaks I shut up and listen and absorb all knowledge he shares.
It’s not his first rodeo
As should everyone. To try to argue with some with his experience is ridiculous but hey some will never learn. Glad you liked the content dude 👊🏼
Im a fairly decent shot but when i moved to a red dot i was having a lot of trouble zeroing and wasnt sure what was me messing up or poorly alligned sight. I bought a 9mm green laser bore-sight and now can re-zero any range really fast, like he said "take as much human out as possible" i dont know why more people dont do that. Anyway now i have plenty of fun making the plates sing 😃
Was it the bullet style bore laser, or the type you stick in the muzzle?
@@lelanddeselle3213 bullet style
The fact he sounds exactly like RDJ as Tony Stark instructing me on zeroing my gun made this experience that much more amazing, lmao.
Hmm idk 10yard zero has produced acceptable results for me and I’m still holding the platform back a little. 7 out of the 10 shots at 25yards created a group of less than the 3.36” size of the 10 ring. I’m the one the messed up the other 3 shots which made a separate group 2 in 9 ring/1 in 8 ring…my best 25yard b8 score to date of 95-96 pending who’s scoring.
I’ll try to get out and try 50 yards and report back. Overall pick whatever works for you and know the limitations of yourself and gear selection.
That man even has a tactical sharpie.
Wow !!! An instructor and class that teaches people to actually zero. First ive seen that doesnt teach bs about “sights dont matter” , or “shooting is all grip”…..
Of course zero matters
Gonna try this out. Appreciate it homies
🤙🏻
Appreciate you homie 👊🏼
Love my red and green dots
I do church security at my church, I set my dot for 15 yards. An EDC with 45 ACP is not the weapon for shooting the 1 mile plate.
Damn dude was spitting facts the whole time
The whole time 👊🏼
When the guy had that group skewed right at 40yds, did Mike have him adjust windage at that range to center it? It would make sense (to me) to do those windage adjustments at range and then see where the group ended up when he was at 15.
Excellent!! I’ll take that advice and go 🤟🏿
So is lopping as a collard, putting the red dot just above the front side, which is not true zeroing but for kinda out of the box, just bring the red dot to the top of the front side good enough for within 7 yards is that fair?
I'm getting Mike a subscription to B-8 of the Month club
4:00 seen a video talk about red dot by sage dynamics and he made an interesting point about not completely eliminating the human body factor. I believe he said something along the lines of “making it artificially zeroed will be difficult to replicate it when shooting normally”
Just different philosophies I guess
I see both sides for sure but I think the calibrating a machine analogy tends to make more sense in my opinion 🤷🏻♂️ either way we had a great time with Mike and he had great info. Took a sage red dot class years ago and really enjoyed his class as well. Thanks for watching 👊🏼
@@Chrisblau it makes sense to have it zeroed as perfectly as possible but humans are not perfect machines. It made more sense to me to not try to artificially make it zeroed because humans will not be able to replicate it. Using a sand bag/stand and a chair seems like the way to go for me. This was a great video and would love to take classes with both. I’ve taken only pistol classes with field craft, t3 pro, aim firearms, SOB and some other non well known instructors. But never taken a class on zeroing in red dot so this video was extremely valuable for me. Thank you
@@raftika1 for sure again I can see both man. Those are some still well known instructors man. I think you would really enjoy training with Mike. Thank you for commenting and watching as well as engaging and finding value in the video. We are trying to actually bring some good information and value while entertaining at the same time so it’s really nice to hear for the whole crew man thank you. 👊🏼👊🏼👊🏼
10:38 So do you recommend to Zero at 15 because is the most practical talking about self defense shooting. How does it work for example in the case of Dicken vs the mall shooter in the Indiana mall. Will the zero at 15 will allow 40ish yard if needed? Thanks
So near the end of the video where you guys backed up to the 35 the guy that shot the 5 1/2 inch group to the right. Does he now adjust his red dot or is that just so he knows at that distance it shoots 5 1/2 inches to the right?
Wondering the same thing. Had the same thing happen to me yesterday.
Back to the game since 2008 and I’m seeing these dudes zeroing red dots at 25yds and I’m like 🤔 has it been this long? WTF are these new guns doing at these distances? And then this class has folks shooting over 40 yards. I need some new glasses. Dang! 🤓 Been shooting iron sights since day one and I can’t make the change.
I was am over 40 years and just started the transition to optics. First thing everyone over 30 years old ( or wear glasses) should do is get your eyes exam.
Best zero for fighting from inside the vehicle / through a windshield? I heard the windshield caused the bullet to deflect 1.5" up when going through the glass so I just zero mine 2" high at 5 yards
Oh dear. I definitely would not zero my gun based on a perception that you’re gunfight will happen from inside the vehicle and through glass. Like for real dude, I’m not even trying to be mean. But that is a horrible strategy. Also, bullets do all kinds of weird things when they hit windshields.
We also did a video on this a couple months ago with Mike. Gunfight I’m a vehicle is not a good idea. Why not just get out of the vehicle so you can move and not deal with the glass?
Great video!
One advantage that handguns inherently have over rifles is zeroing a red dot, *especially* when the red dot is mounted directly onto a slide with a milled-out optics cut. The greatly reduced height over bore means WAY less elevation point-of-impact variability at different distances vs rifle dots/scopes/optics that usually sit *at least* 1.5” above the bore. Heck, I have a Shield Plus OR with a dot that co-witnesses with my NON-suppressor-height sights. So POI changes are far less pronounced at 5 v 15 v 25 yards than it is for my rifles.
Granted, I’d still rather have my AR-15 between the two for various other advantages, but just saying! 😂
I really need to move my zero from 10 to 15.
PS. I have been meaning to for a while.
When you go out to 30-50 yards do you still keep the red dot lined up exactly at your target or do you start having it a little higher than where you want to hit?
Depends on how precise you need to be
Love the content. I highly suggest getting a laser bore sight too… then checking with ammo.
In chamber bullet style, or in the bore?
@@lelanddeselle3213 in chambers are cheap. They look like bullet.
Man, I miss shooting in Utah.
I zero my RDS at 1 yard and just multiply by how far I think my target is. It’s basically foolproof.
Lol
Jim Cirilo did his best work with fixed sights.
Look at macro data not micro data. You can always find an outlier. Red dots aren’t debatable anymore
@@1911syndicate Along with gimmicks.
@@jasonashley4579 did you just call red dots a gimmick lmaooo
@Slimmerman223 they're nice on rifles, on a conceal carry piece yes they're a gimmick, you won't have time to use it, you'll end up point shooting in a self defense situation with a pistol.
Good stuff
"if ya feeling fucking frosty" ..... thanks. my next staff meeting is going to be different lol
Lol