@@Hyce777 Nice that I left an impression. By the way I was the vacation of my live 8000 miles through the grater US south west. (some stops: Vegas, Grand Canyon, Denver, Houston, Phoenix, LA, Frisco, Redwoods, Sacramento , back to Vegas)
I never knew 491 was WIDER THAN A BIG BOY (That's...actually quite shocking) and yet only as tall as the Narrow Gauge, it does give 491 quite the Striking Silhouette. "Quite an Impressive Locomotive" indeed
I can think of a reason for the Big Boy and other Mallet-articulated locomotives (mostly not actually true Mallet) to be narrower than you might expect for a standard gauge locomotive: The Mallet articulation means that the long boiler sticks out over the side of the front drivers on a curve. This was especially prominent on a x-8-8-x locomotive like the Big Boy. Actually, I'm not sure if you even could take a Big Boy on some of the eastern railroads -- it might hit objects on the outsides of curves. Maybe this is why the heavy haulers of the eastern railroads tended to be x-6-6-x or have rather small driving wheels (like the 2 Triplex types, 2-8-8-8-x); the Norfolk and Western Y6-series seems to be a partial exception (maybe they had better trackside clearances?).
@@steffenrosmus9177 Sort of, but not really -- they reused boilers, tenders, and some other parts from some Class 19/C-41 2-8-0 locomotives, but they had to make an awful lot of parts completely new, so much that this doesn't really count as a conversion.
I’ve been at the D&S on vacation recently, and walking through the museum, my dad asked me the exact same question. It’s one of those things where you don’t realize how confusing outside frame locomotives look to those who aren’t used to them
When I was a little kid going to the Cumbres & Toltec, I always thought that the counterweights were some weird special wheel design. Kinda funny looking back on it.
Fun fact when the d&rgw was running the k-28s up to sliverton for the first time they kept scraping the cylinders against the rock walls along the line because the loading gauge was that much wider compared to the c-19s etc
Thank you! Appreciate the review of "why the hell did they hide the wheels" which actually makes a lot of sense. Watching 491's (relatively) huge boiler coming around the curve and looking at how big the gauge isn't really drove home the point. Thanks again 😊
Absolutely amazing knowledge and I wondered myself where the wheels where on D&RGW 491 and compared to 346 and 20 as they're older the design changed to improve and better the locomotive. Keep launching these great videos Mark H.
Nice job Mark! It's also interesting to note that since Schenectady did their locomotives differently (they built the "Sport Model" K-28s) they put the counterweights on the drivers to counteract the side rods. So the number 1, 2 and 4 axles had small cranks and the number 3 had the counterbalance for the main rod. Bonus points - what locomotive was called a more common name of a "coot" and why? :-)
Hi Hyce! So interesting to see how you started with inside frames but ended up with outside, the opposite of how it happened on a restricted loading gauge railway like over here in the UK (see Kirtly 156 or Churchward 3700 for surviving examples). At one point almost EVERYTHING was outside frames.
Outside frames on early locomotives in europe because the designers at that time are afraid of the center of mass going higher. So much so that they even have those ridiculous designs where the axles punches right through the boiler for the ultimate under slung boiler design. Another contributing factor as to why they want the boiler so low in the first place is because the entire running gear is in between the frames. They are forced to raise the boiler for more clearance. As to why the running gear is in between the frame, the designers are afraid of the crank axle snapping in half due to the moment distance between the applied force. Basically, keep the pistons closer together to keep the force concentrated. It must be done this because the metallurgy of the crank axle is still catching up. This was a time were they want more strength on the material but the processes on making that material is long ways away.
How does the cross compound air compressor work? What I mean by that is how does the steam go in on the right side of the pistons at the right time, because I can't see any sort of valve gear controlling it.
Wow, core memory unlocked, because I remember wondering about this exact thing when I rode the Durango & Silverton back in 1993 (I was 6 at the time). Nice to finally have that explained, so thanks!
On the 2 foot guage Sandy River & Rangley Lakes railroad (Maine) Baldwin built a 2-4-4T no. 9 with inside frames which was reported to have a tendency to wobble down the track. The next order to Baldwin was for the same size and design except the no. 10 was outside frame and was one of the sweetest runners they had. Reportedly one engineer routinely ran no. 10 at 60mph on 2 ft guage.
I was considering changing the design of my 10 1/4" gauge 0-4-0 steam powered Locomotive to 7 1/4" gauge ,to reduce the weight of my portable railroad panels as they are dual gauge. Watching your video has inspired to do this conversion by moving the wheel set inside and making counter weights to connect the motion on the outside,therefore not having to move the cylinder set up. Cheers 🍻
This video randomly popped up in my suggested feed. I have always wondered about the more massive outside framed engines and this video finally enlightened me out of the blue.
Thank you for showing where the 🚂🛞 choo choo wheels are, I had a model train as a kid and could never find ones that looked like mine in movies. The 𐄷⚖center of mass factors within the decision process of choosing to go with inside wheels was a good nugget of insight.
They were fairly popular in the UK, where clearances were and still are REALLY narrow (can't even fit a standard shipping container). Edit: The situation there produces a result that is related, but not the same: The British locomotives I am thinking of had the wheels AND the cylinders inside. More modern UK locomotives had a more conventional design, but even so, you still can't fit a standard shipping container on much of the UK rail network.
I was told one time that the counterweights were originally hallow and they would fill them with lead to match the weight of the side rod. Have you heard of this or are they solid?
Hi Mark many thanks for your great explanation of outside frames. I really do like the 491. Such impressive presence and when steamed up amazing sounds. Famous 20 is a close second! Thanks again Mark, I’m always learning something new from you professor. Cheers.
We've got a lot! 491, 346, and 20 are the three that operate, steam-wise. We also have the DL&G 191, D&RGW 318 on display that we own, then RGS 74, westside 12 and westside 14 on display owned by others that are all steam.
Now you're got me wondering WHY the great western did this with inside cylinder locomotives with high mounted boilers on a tiny loading gauge. This feels like a "Midland axle boxes" shop pride sorta thing.
Your comment about the frame "holding the locomotive together" reminded me of something I learned recently that I'd be interested in a video about: According to what I read, that's only partly true -- because the boiler expands in length when it gets hot, the boiler can only be attached to the frame at one place (the cylinder saddle), and the firebox and cab just rest on the back of the frame on sliders. Is that correct? I'd be really interested if you could talk about that more, and show how much it moves and how the parts work. Also, I quite appreciated that you made this video interesting for those of us who already knew where the wheels were, too! I knew where they were, but I didn't really know why (even though I thought I did).
That is very correct, the PRR had problems with their Duplex engines with boilers expanding more than the frame. A large locomotive boiler could expand upwards of an inch after it was really hot.
All steam locomotives have to cope with the expansion of the boiler when it’s hot. The frames and running gear will expand as well but only tiny amounts compared to the boiler. The usual way of allowing for this is to fix the boiler at the smokebox end and allow the firebox to move. Of course, the weight of the boiler has to be carried but those supports are designed to allow it to slide.
Neat video, there's a few things in here that I didn't know. I'm in NSW Australia, we don't have many outside frame locos and the ones we do have come from other states.
I often thought that design was because the engine was made for the normal wider track, but now it is being used on a narrow track so it got modified to make it fit having the drive wheel on the inside of the frame to make it work..
My two Henschel HF110Cs (both my LGB/Aster Frank S. and my LGB/Marklin RuBB 99 4652) are outside frame, but in their case it's because the HF110C was originally built for military field railway use so the frame acts as armor for the wheels. The boiler on those sits completely above the footplate, albeit _exactly_ on it with no spacing. There's a lot of different reasons for doing an outside-frame locomotive, it's just one of those design quirks that shows up from time to time everywhere. I think there might be some European rod-driven diesel-hydraulic switchers that are also outside-frame, as well as the RhB's Ge 6/6 I Crocodile.
Hyce in one of your professor videos you talked about the math and formula on how much a engine is rated for. Is there a formula on how fast a locomotive can theoretically go?
I guess there is, and it differs based on valve type. Your theoretical max speed is limited by the number of movements your cylinder can make while still being effective. That gives a max rpm, which in combination with wheel circumference gives the maximum speed
Hey, I just thought of this while watching. As a video request, would you show us how you de-winterize a steam locomotive or is the one fireup video just that? Also, why not just put counterweights on the wheels as well help with the balance? I understand the outside counterweights are, as you said, more for control the center of mass, which in turn improves the center of gravity, but wouldn’t having them on the wheels as well help with the weight balancing?
I had thought outside frames would also be a bit easier to lubricate, what with all the lubrication spots for the axles being kept outside, which would have been a concern before the advent of automatic lubrication. On top of that, if the axleboxes are on the outside, any other attention to them doesn't require getting around or through the wheels. But that's just what I'd expect, I'm a tram gal who finds HAVING TO FEED THE AXLES IN THE SIDES weird and wants to find other ways to make it not as annoying to maintain things.
Since editor hyce answered my question about stability heading down the rails I'll ask a different one; do you know if anyone built an outside frame standard gauge loco?
so my thought always was that if you replace the counter weights on the outside with the actual wheels, it would fit standard gauge. and wheels on the inside narrow gauge
So, probably a dumb question, but why do a lot Colorado railroads have Rio Grande in their name? Is it a town in Colorado? Because unless I'm mistaken, rhe river Rio Grande is on the border between Texas and Mexico, nowhere near Colorodo.
When I started working at the Museum one of the most confusing things to me was all the railroads with Rio Grande in the name. Denver & Rio Grande became the Denver & Rio Grande Western after being reorganized, Rio Grande Southern was Otto Perry's San Juan route. than San Luis and Rio Grande....maybe it has to do with the river?
Well... for context, the Rio Grande river's headwaters are in south central Colorado. The Rio Grande was part of General Palmer's original dream to reach Mexico from Denver. A little history... As the D&RG was building south out of Denver, when they got to the Arkansas River, the Santa Fe (AT&SF) had already built north over Raton Pass and was building up the Arkansas River (Royal Gorge) to tap the rich mines around Leadville. The D&RG took this as an affront to their territory and the Royal Gorge War broke out where they were shooting at each other. It was settled in the courts that the Santa Fe can have the Raton Pass (which meant the D&RG grading over the pass had to be abandoned) but the D&RG gets the Royal Gorge route which pushed the D&RG to become a Colorado mountain railroad. The railroad did eventually reach Santa Fe from Antonito. And they reached the Rio Grande river in Alamosa! From Utah, another railroad (the Rio Grande Western) was also building into the mountains. Eventually the Denver and Rio Grande and the Rio Grande Western merged and formed the Denver and Rio Grande Western. The Rio Grande Southern was formed by Otto Mears and it actually formed a bridge between the Denver and Rio Grande's Ouray Branch and Durango (on the Silverton Branch) which is possibly how it got the Rio Grande in it's name although it's nowhere near the river of that name. About this same time of the D&RGW merger, they started to standard gauge their mainline from Denver to Ogden which was on the UPRR. The Silver Crash of 1893 caused many mines to close and so there was little need to change over the narrow gauge. EXCEPT later 1905, the Farmington branch was built from Durango as standard gauge (on a narrow gauge railroad!) That tracks was built into the oil fields and was a political ploy to keep the Santa Fe from building into the same area. There was even plans to regrade and rebuild the Cumbres Pass and relay it all as Standard Gauge. Of course it was all a rouge and the tracks were narrow gauged and the railroad was kept busy hauling pipes to the oil fields and oil out in tank cars. This did mean the loads had to be transferred in Alamosa. There was also the Monarch Branch to the CF&I limestone mine (to make steel in Pueblo) which was narrow gauge and those car loads were transferred to standard gauge using a big device they called the barrel where they would roll the high side gondolas over and dump into a standard gauge car below. This was done in Salida. Eventually as the railroad removed all the narrow gauge railroads out of Salida (Marshall Pass especially) the Monarch Branch was standard gauged and ran for a brief while before being abandoned and scrapped. The name "Rio Grande" for the railroad itself most likely came about as a "nickname" for the railroad (also called "the Grande") after the "toilet seat" Moffat Pass logo was replaced with the speed lettering Rio Grande on the locomotives and cabooses. And as for the Moffat tunnel and how it became part of the Rio Grande is another story for another time. I hope this helps. And if I got something wrong, let me know. :-) I did a lot of Colorado railroad history in college in Durango but that was a LONG time ago when the SP, D&RGW and UP were separate still.
@RGS Rob Herronen aka Bigfoot it did a bit, though with how my brain works I'd needs a map showing these locations and routes for me to truly understand.
Thanks for these awesome detailed videos. I met you briefly at the East Broad Top on the 18th. Was wondering if you will be doing a video about your trip there?
Hey @Hyce I am currently a college student studying secondary education. I am quickly realizing that teaching in Arizona is definitely not for me. I’ve always loved trains and I love working on cars. I want to get into train maintenance at BNSF like you did. Is there anything I need to know about the job? Do I need a degree in something? Or do I just wait until a position is open in my area and just go for it?
I find it so absurd that the locomotive hangs over each side of the rail more than the gauge of the railroad its on. It just seems like something that would never be stable, but 491 remains not upside down at the bottom of a cliff
The biggest secret of all time is how do you put water into a pressurized boiler. After searching for a week, I found out about the steam ejector (injector) whatever. Why does no one talk about this? Can you show me one? Can you make one work so that I can see it? thanks, Hyce!
I knew about the counterweights on the outside, but I was wondering if there would be counterweights on the wheels inside. One potential future question: You talked about why the K-class locomotives (and other locomotives) had outside frames, clearance and center of gravity. Could you talk about some of the other advantages or disadvantages of outside vs inside frame? I've heard from the Georgetown Loop shop foreman that outside frame is a lot easier to inspect from below since the frames are further apart.
Another thing is that with the springs and bearings inside the wheels, they are much closer together, so the center of mass of the engine has more leverage on them when it tries to swing from side to side: this makes the locomotive more prone to rocking back and forth. Putting these outside the wheels gives a more stable ride and can prevent the thing from tipping over. On engines with inside valve gear (like Stephenson), having the gear and the frames inside the wheels made this space awfully crowded, especially up in Maine where the wheels were sometimes less than two feet back to back!
Pfff, in Austria there are narrow gauge engines with have the driving wheels on an inside frame, and the trailing wheel in an outside frame. Yes the frame becomes wider to fit the firebox. Maybe weird but it works.
If you see very little steam coming out of the smoke stack, does that mean that you are running the locomotive at it's highest efficient rate? Like the fire is burning very efficiently and you have the "perfect" amount of steam pressure and water that there is no excess steam to exert out of the smoke stack?
Were outside frames ever used for standard gauge locomotives? I can imagine just how wide those would be and how much bigger you could make the boiler.
There were a few crazy ones like the Saxon XV HTV with mixed inside and outside frames. Regular ones were (quickly phased out due to being outdated in 1925) de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayerische_B_IX de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayerische_C_III
One example is the famous "City of Truro". Afaik the Great Western Railway also built some inside frames locomotives for broad gauge meant to be converted to standard gauge outside frame locomotives during the gauge conversion phase.
@@fritz46 Thanks -- and Google even finds the Wikipedia article on this and other sources of pictures of this locomotive. But the "City" class was built new this way years after the conversion was finished. The Wikipedia article on locomotives of the Great Western claims that some locomotives were converted, and the article on GWR class 388 even lists some as being converted from standard gauge to broad gauge and back to standard gauge, but these don't show pictures of converted locomotives.
Hello from France and thanks for the lot of information on the old steam locomotive. I’am trying to build from scratch a k-27 in Fng scale (with parts of Bachmann) and I have a lot of drawings of K-27 (from internet), some of them with a lot of tubing on the cab’s roof. Could you tell me what are they use for?
@@Hyce777 I WAS RATHER CURIOUS ABOUT THIS TYPE AND WONDERED IF THEY WERE BUILT NEW AS SUCH OR WERE OLDER STANDARD GUAGE SMALLER LOCOMOTIVES REBILT AND DOWNSIZED TO MAKE BIGGER NARROW GUAGE POWER! I SEED TO WORK FOR SANTA FE AND BECAME QUITE INTERESTED IN THEIR STEAM POWER MAITENENCE AND REBUILDS! THEY DID A LOT OF STUFF EXCHANGING BOILERS BETWEEN DIFFERENT CLASSES TO REBUILD OLDER LOCOMOTIVES INTO YARD SWITCHERS AND LOCAL TRAIN POWER! THE AT&SF 769 NOW RESIDING AT MADRID NEW MEXICO IS AN EXAMPLE OF AN KITBASH OF THAT SORT!!
I have always thought it was more that if you needed to convert one of these to standard gauge, simply move the wheels to the outside. Not sure that would actually work given the other components and it might be wider than standard gauge, but I wonder if the D&RG ever thought of it
I could have sworn to having read somewhere about somebody doing the opposite -- rebuilt a standard gauge steam locomotive to an outside-frame narrow gauge locomotive.
Courtesy of Nick Norton in a different comments subthread: Boilers, tenders, and some other parts from D&RGW standard gauge Class 19/C-41 were used to build new D&RGW class K-37 locomotives.
Awesome video. I went to Bethlehem tech for Auto mechanics and was in a co-op from 2002-2005. I balanced a few hundred maybe even a thousand or 2 wheels. Do they balance train wheels like professional mechanics do for highway wheels? I mean put it on a centrifugal spindle, spin it right round baby right round. And apply the weights where the degree marker points? Or do they tap it with a hammer listen for vibrations and add weight until the resonating tones of the wheel is tuned? How do they balance those multi-thousand pound wheels?
Really kind of makes me wonder why they never tried to do this on standard gauge locomotives, if anything I think it would be a way for them to try and make something even more massive than even the big boy. Who knows, maybe because steam started declining just when the supersized locomotives were hitting their stride we never got to see what the next level would have been.
All we need is.... All the money. Lol. We talk about it daily. We really could. They're working on master plan stuff right now that will hopefully include things like that.
![Working on a Steam Locomotive [4K]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/UQE_7vCQ6rA/mqdefault.jpg)
![Working on a Steam Locomotive [4K]](/img/tr.png)
I still think 491 is a chonker.
You telling me that in person is still one of my highlight moments from this summer, lol.
@@Hyce777 Nice that I left an impression. By the way I was the vacation of my live 8000 miles through the grater US south west. (some stops: Vegas, Grand Canyon, Denver, Houston, Phoenix, LA, Frisco, Redwoods, Sacramento , back to Vegas)
Amen on that, brother~ I mean, just look at her~ These hips don't lie~
So do you guys plan on expanding operational trackage in the future instead of your circle piece of operating track?
491 is a hecken chonker
when you talked about the center of mass i was waiting for a joke on 346 going for belly scratches.
Drunken Belly Scratches!
I never knew 491 was WIDER THAN A BIG BOY (That's...actually quite shocking)
and yet only as tall as the Narrow Gauge, it does give 491 quite the Striking Silhouette.
"Quite an Impressive Locomotive" indeed
I can think of a reason for the Big Boy and other Mallet-articulated locomotives (mostly not actually true Mallet) to be narrower than you might expect for a standard gauge locomotive: The Mallet articulation means that the long boiler sticks out over the side of the front drivers on a curve. This was especially prominent on a x-8-8-x locomotive like the Big Boy. Actually, I'm not sure if you even could take a Big Boy on some of the eastern railroads -- it might hit objects on the outsides of curves. Maybe this is why the heavy haulers of the eastern railroads tended to be x-6-6-x or have rather small driving wheels (like the 2 Triplex types, 2-8-8-8-x); the Norfolk and Western Y6-series seems to be a partial exception (maybe they had better trackside clearances?).
Well the k37s were converted from standard gauge inside frame Consolidations to outside frame Mikados in the 1930ies
@@steffenrosmus9177 Sort of, but not really -- they reused boilers, tenders, and some other parts from some Class 19/C-41 2-8-0 locomotives, but they had to make an awful lot of parts completely new, so much that this doesn't really count as a conversion.
I’ve been at the D&S on vacation recently, and walking through the museum, my dad asked me the exact same question.
It’s one of those things where you don’t realize how confusing outside frame locomotives look to those who aren’t used to them
When I was a little kid going to the Cumbres & Toltec, I always thought that the counterweights were some weird special wheel design. Kinda funny looking back on it.
Same.
I can agree with this XD
Fun fact when the d&rgw was running the k-28s up to sliverton for the first time they kept scraping the cylinders against the rock walls along the line because the loading gauge was that much wider compared to the c-19s etc
Thank you! Appreciate the review of "why the hell did they hide the wheels" which actually makes a lot of sense. Watching 491's (relatively) huge boiler coming around the curve and looking at how big the gauge isn't really drove home the point. Thanks again 😊
I figured it was something to do with sticking bigger bits onto a small track but I had no clue about the centre of mass and springs. Great video!
That was very informative. As someone who loves narrow gauge railroading, thank you for taking the time to make these videos!
Absolutely amazing knowledge and I wondered myself where the wheels where on D&RGW 491 and compared to 346 and 20 as they're older the design changed to improve and better the locomotive.
Keep launching these great videos Mark H.
Nice job Mark! It's also interesting to note that since Schenectady did their locomotives differently (they built the "Sport Model" K-28s) they put the counterweights on the drivers to counteract the side rods. So the number 1, 2 and 4 axles had small cranks and the number 3 had the counterbalance for the main rod.
Bonus points - what locomotive was called a more common name of a "coot" and why? :-)
Hi Hyce!
So interesting to see how you started with inside frames but ended up with outside, the opposite of how it happened on a restricted loading gauge railway like over here in the UK (see Kirtly 156 or Churchward 3700 for surviving examples). At one point almost EVERYTHING was outside frames.
That's quite fascinating.
Outside frames on early locomotives in europe because the designers at that time are afraid of the center of mass going higher. So much so that they even have those ridiculous designs where the axles punches right through the boiler for the ultimate under slung boiler design.
Another contributing factor as to why they want the boiler so low in the first place is because the entire running gear is in between the frames. They are forced to raise the boiler for more clearance. As to why the running gear is in between the frame, the designers are afraid of the crank axle snapping in half due to the moment distance between the applied force. Basically, keep the pistons closer together to keep the force concentrated. It must be done this because the metallurgy of the crank axle is still catching up. This was a time were they want more strength on the material but the processes on making that material is long ways away.
How does the cross compound air compressor work? What I mean by that is how does the steam go in on the right side of the pistons at the right time, because I can't see any sort of valve gear controlling it.
There's a controller that lives on top of the head that makes that happen. How it works I'm not sure myself!
@@Hyce777 Stare at it until you understand it.
I love outside framed locomotives, I think the counterweights look really interesting and cool
491 absolutely reminds me of 90s GT cars, or RWB 911s, simply because it's just so darn wide, but looks good with it's width
The K37 is a lowrider in all reality. It is a channeled and lowered standard gauge locomotive.
Wow, core memory unlocked, because I remember wondering about this exact thing when I rode the Durango & Silverton back in 1993 (I was 6 at the time). Nice to finally have that explained, so thanks!
Love the videos, keep up the great work!
On the 2 foot guage Sandy River & Rangley Lakes railroad (Maine) Baldwin built a 2-4-4T no. 9 with inside frames which was reported to have a tendency to wobble down the track. The next order to Baldwin was for the same size and design except the no. 10 was outside frame and was one of the sweetest runners they had. Reportedly one engineer routinely ran no. 10 at 60mph on 2 ft guage.
I was considering changing the design of my 10 1/4" gauge 0-4-0 steam powered Locomotive to 7 1/4" gauge ,to reduce the weight of my portable railroad panels as they are dual gauge. Watching your video has inspired to do this conversion by moving the wheel set inside and making counter weights to connect the motion on the outside,therefore not having to move the cylinder set up. Cheers 🍻
I’m learning an incredible amount of things from your channel, thank you for your hard work Hyce :D
This video randomly popped up in my suggested feed. I have always wondered about the more massive outside framed engines and this video finally enlightened me out of the blue.
Accurately explained. Many thanks for sharing. Liked, subscribed!
Great video Hyce
these are the things they need to be teaching us in school XD thank you so much Hyce!
Great explanation Hyce, I often wonder why a narrow gauge engine don't fall over. . .
You give really clear explanations and your enthusiasm for the topic shines through. Thanks for sharing your insights. Ronn
346 looks sad but she will soon shine!
Thank you for showing where the 🚂🛞 choo choo wheels are, I had a model train as a kid and could never find ones that looked like mine in movies. The 𐄷⚖center of mass factors within the decision process of choosing to go with inside wheels was a good nugget of insight.
Quite the informative video! Were there ever any standard gauge outside frame locomotives that you know of?
They were fairly popular in the UK, where clearances were and still are REALLY narrow (can't even fit a standard shipping container). Edit: The situation there produces a result that is related, but not the same: The British locomotives I am thinking of had the wheels AND the cylinders inside. More modern UK locomotives had a more conventional design, but even so, you still can't fit a standard shipping container on much of the UK rail network.
Another great video! Thanks for showing these differences to us!
Great video Hyce!
I was told one time that the counterweights were originally hallow and they would fill them with lead to match the weight of the side rod. Have you heard of this or are they solid?
That's what I've always heard as well. Not honestly sure.
Hi Mark many thanks for your great explanation of outside frames. I really do like the 491. Such impressive presence and when steamed up amazing sounds. Famous 20 is a close second! Thanks again Mark, I’m always learning something new from you professor. Cheers.
Thank you Prof Hyce, I learned a lot from this video. I really want to know more about the 346. What other narrow gauge engines does the museum have?
We've got a lot! 491, 346, and 20 are the three that operate, steam-wise. We also have the DL&G 191, D&RGW 318 on display that we own, then RGS 74, westside 12 and westside 14 on display owned by others that are all steam.
Now you're got me wondering WHY the great western did this with inside cylinder locomotives with high mounted boilers on a tiny loading gauge. This feels like a "Midland axle boxes" shop pride sorta thing.
0:38 i always knew that outside framed locos had their actual wheels more inward, but i never knew the wheels were placed that _F A R_ inward!
Theoretically, we c o u l d be a silly, dubious little character, and put the wheels on the outside and run 491 on the mainline.
It'd be broad gauge.
@@Hyce777 So the Russian mainline?
Thanks for the clear up on the wheels, Hyce!
Great information thank you Have a great weekend
Your comment about the frame "holding the locomotive together" reminded me of something I learned recently that I'd be interested in a video about: According to what I read, that's only partly true -- because the boiler expands in length when it gets hot, the boiler can only be attached to the frame at one place (the cylinder saddle), and the firebox and cab just rest on the back of the frame on sliders. Is that correct? I'd be really interested if you could talk about that more, and show how much it moves and how the parts work.
Also, I quite appreciated that you made this video interesting for those of us who already knew where the wheels were, too! I knew where they were, but I didn't really know why (even though I thought I did).
That is very correct, the PRR had problems with their Duplex engines with boilers expanding more than the frame. A large locomotive boiler could expand upwards of an inch after it was really hot.
All steam locomotives have to cope with the expansion of the boiler when it’s hot. The frames and running gear will expand as well but only tiny amounts compared to the boiler. The usual way of allowing for this is to fix the boiler at the smokebox end and allow the firebox to move. Of course, the weight of the boiler has to be carried but those supports are designed to allow it to slide.
4:30 whaaa... No... That can't be right....
My mind cannot process that peaches is wider than the big boy xD
Love watching the video. Crazy to think that the 491 was wider than a big boy
When your interest in railways is very much the narrow gauge, then the inside frames are just normal and obvious but a great explanation ✔️
4:44
Well, DUH~ It's the BIG Boy, after all. Not the WIDE Boy.
XDD
Neat video, there's a few things in here that I didn't know. I'm in NSW Australia, we don't have many outside frame locos and the ones we do have come from other states.
I often thought that design was because the engine was made for the normal wider track, but now it is being used on a narrow track so it got modified to make it fit having the drive wheel on the inside of the frame to make it work..
nope.
Cool info - I love your workshops like this.
My two Henschel HF110Cs (both my LGB/Aster Frank S. and my LGB/Marklin RuBB 99 4652) are outside frame, but in their case it's because the HF110C was originally built for military field railway use so the frame acts as armor for the wheels. The boiler on those sits completely above the footplate, albeit _exactly_ on it with no spacing. There's a lot of different reasons for doing an outside-frame locomotive, it's just one of those design quirks that shows up from time to time everywhere. I think there might be some European rod-driven diesel-hydraulic switchers that are also outside-frame, as well as the RhB's Ge 6/6 I Crocodile.
Make a video about how the tender is connected to the steam locomotive I have never seen that very closely
Very interesting videos thanks for your knowledge
Hyce in one of your professor videos you talked about the math and formula on how much a engine is rated for. Is there a formula on how fast a locomotive can theoretically go?
Mathhhhhhhhh
I guess there is, and it differs based on valve type. Your theoretical max speed is limited by the number of movements your cylinder can make while still being effective. That gives a max rpm, which in combination with wheel circumference gives the maximum speed
“where are the wheels?”
sorry i ate them
Were they tasty?
@@burnerheinz I have had them before, they were good and made well in a k-37 kitchen but they were wheel-y hard to swallow.
@@burnerheinz iron’s good for the body, steel is good for the soul
L I M E S with those!!
We got you reacting to 2102 I would love to see your thoughts on Pennsylvanias narrow gage the East Broad Top
Hey, I just thought of this while watching. As a video request, would you show us how you de-winterize a steam locomotive or is the one fireup video just that?
Also, why not just put counterweights on the wheels as well help with the balance? I understand the outside counterweights are, as you said, more for control the center of mass, which in turn improves the center of gravity, but wouldn’t having them on the wheels as well help with the weight balancing?
He mentioned in the video where some builders did that.
my favorite outside frame locomotive besides the rio grande Ks are the south african railways ng15s which were 2ft narrow guage
Finally, a concrete answer as to WHY.
Side note, it looks like 346's smokebox would fit inside 491s firebox.
It would, if you took the backhead off... lol
@@Hyce777 Jesus, really puts 491s size in perspective.
I had thought outside frames would also be a bit easier to lubricate, what with all the lubrication spots for the axles being kept outside, which would have been a concern before the advent of automatic lubrication. On top of that, if the axleboxes are on the outside, any other attention to them doesn't require getting around or through the wheels.
But that's just what I'd expect, I'm a tram gal who finds HAVING TO FEED THE AXLES IN THE SIDES weird and wants to find other ways to make it not as annoying to maintain things.
Since editor hyce answered my question about stability heading down the rails I'll ask a different one; do you know if anyone built an outside frame standard gauge loco?
I am not aware of any, but I wouldn't be surprised if one does exist.
so my thought always was that if you replace the counter weights on the outside with the actual wheels, it would fit standard gauge. and wheels on the inside narrow gauge
Nope. It's wider.
So, probably a dumb question, but why do a lot Colorado railroads have Rio Grande in their name? Is it a town in Colorado? Because unless I'm mistaken, rhe river Rio Grande is on the border between Texas and Mexico, nowhere near Colorodo.
When I started working at the Museum one of the most confusing things to me was all the railroads with Rio Grande in the name. Denver & Rio Grande became the Denver & Rio Grande Western after being reorganized, Rio Grande Southern was Otto Perry's San Juan route. than San Luis and Rio Grande....maybe it has to do with the river?
Well... for context, the Rio Grande river's headwaters are in south central Colorado.
The Rio Grande was part of General Palmer's original dream to reach Mexico from Denver.
A little history...
As the D&RG was building south out of Denver, when they got to the Arkansas River, the Santa Fe (AT&SF) had already built north over Raton Pass and was building up the Arkansas River (Royal Gorge) to tap the rich mines around Leadville. The D&RG took this as an affront to their territory and the Royal Gorge War broke out where they were shooting at each other. It was settled in the courts that the Santa Fe can have the Raton Pass (which meant the D&RG grading over the pass had to be abandoned) but the D&RG gets the Royal Gorge route which pushed the D&RG to become a Colorado mountain railroad.
The railroad did eventually reach Santa Fe from Antonito. And they reached the Rio Grande river in Alamosa!
From Utah, another railroad (the Rio Grande Western) was also building into the mountains. Eventually the Denver and Rio Grande and the Rio Grande Western merged and formed the Denver and Rio Grande Western.
The Rio Grande Southern was formed by Otto Mears and it actually formed a bridge between the Denver and Rio Grande's Ouray Branch and Durango (on the Silverton Branch) which is possibly how it got the Rio Grande in it's name although it's nowhere near the river of that name.
About this same time of the D&RGW merger, they started to standard gauge their mainline from Denver to Ogden which was on the UPRR. The Silver Crash of 1893 caused many mines to close and so there was little need to change over the narrow gauge. EXCEPT later 1905, the Farmington branch was built from Durango as standard gauge (on a narrow gauge railroad!) That tracks was built into the oil fields and was a political ploy to keep the Santa Fe from building into the same area. There was even plans to regrade and rebuild the Cumbres Pass and relay it all as Standard Gauge. Of course it was all a rouge and the tracks were narrow gauged and the railroad was kept busy hauling pipes to the oil fields and oil out in tank cars. This did mean the loads had to be transferred in Alamosa.
There was also the Monarch Branch to the CF&I limestone mine (to make steel in Pueblo) which was narrow gauge and those car loads were transferred to standard gauge using a big device they called the barrel where they would roll the high side gondolas over and dump into a standard gauge car below. This was done in Salida. Eventually as the railroad removed all the narrow gauge railroads out of Salida (Marshall Pass especially) the Monarch Branch was standard gauged and ran for a brief while before being abandoned and scrapped.
The name "Rio Grande" for the railroad itself most likely came about as a "nickname" for the railroad (also called "the Grande") after the "toilet seat" Moffat Pass logo was replaced with the speed lettering Rio Grande on the locomotives and cabooses.
And as for the Moffat tunnel and how it became part of the Rio Grande is another story for another time.
I hope this helps. And if I got something wrong, let me know. :-) I did a lot of Colorado railroad history in college in Durango but that was a LONG time ago when the SP, D&RGW and UP were separate still.
@RGS Rob Herronen aka Bigfoot it did a bit, though with how my brain works I'd needs a map showing these locations and routes for me to truly understand.
Thanks for these awesome detailed videos. I met you briefly at the East Broad Top on the 18th. Was wondering if you will be doing a video about your trip there?
Oh plenty of video to come from EBT. They just take a minute to put together. :)
Thank you
In addition to spring rigging, having an outside frame also probably helps the boiler clear the cylinders/saddle.
well, see, it physically has to do that no matter what and they don't move, lol
Yes, but with bigger cylinders than would otherwise fit
Hey @Hyce I am currently a college student studying secondary education. I am quickly realizing that teaching in Arizona is definitely not for me. I’ve always loved trains and I love working on cars.
I want to get into train maintenance at BNSF like you did. Is there anything I need to know about the job? Do I need a degree in something? Or do I just wait until a position is open in my area and just go for it?
I find it so absurd that the locomotive hangs over each side of the rail more than the gauge of the railroad its on. It just seems like something that would never be stable, but 491 remains not upside down at the bottom of a cliff
The biggest secret of all time is how do you put water into a pressurized boiler. After searching for a week, I found out about the steam ejector (injector) whatever. Why does no one talk about this? Can you show me one? Can you make one work so that I can see it? thanks, Hyce!
We're parts of the k37 reused from standard gauge engines?
Yes, check out the 10:30 mark in our recent Big Trains Tour video on 491 - th-cam.com/video/nL7jbTyD5B0/w-d-xo.html
I think the boiler was made along side standard gauge boilers but only the boilers.
The museum itself replied, but the short answer is yes, the boiler and domes were re used, and the tender was converted.
Loved it!
I'd wondered if it was to allow some parts sharing between standard and narrow gauge locomotives with manufacturing.
I knew about the counterweights on the outside, but I was wondering if there would be counterweights on the wheels inside.
One potential future question: You talked about why the K-class locomotives (and other locomotives) had outside frames, clearance and center of gravity. Could you talk about some of the other advantages or disadvantages of outside vs inside frame? I've heard from the Georgetown Loop shop foreman that outside frame is a lot easier to inspect from below since the frames are further apart.
There certainly are a lot of plusses and minuses; that'd make for a good video. :)
Another thing is that with the springs and bearings inside the wheels, they are much closer together, so the center of mass of the engine has more leverage on them when it tries to swing from side to side: this makes the locomotive more prone to rocking back and forth. Putting these outside the wheels gives a more stable ride and can prevent the thing from tipping over.
On engines with inside valve gear (like Stephenson), having the gear and the frames inside the wheels made this space awfully crowded, especially up in Maine where the wheels were sometimes less than two feet back to back!
So THATS why outside frame locomotives were built that way. They look very odd but are very very powerful
Pfff, in Austria there are narrow gauge engines with have the driving wheels on an inside frame, and the trailing wheel in an outside frame. Yes the frame becomes wider to fit the firebox. Maybe weird but it works.
If you want to see wobbly check out of the South African Steam Locomotives that look like they shouldn't be on such a narrow gauge.
Some 2ft narrow gauge have forney 's have outside frame also
Happy to say I'll be out at CRM during the Narrow Gauge Convention!
Interesting video. Thx.
If you see very little steam coming out of the smoke stack, does that mean that you are running the locomotive at it's highest efficient rate? Like the fire is burning very efficiently and you have the "perfect" amount of steam pressure and water that there is no excess steam to exert out of the smoke stack?
I wouldn't have expected a narrow gauge locomotive to be wider than Big Boy.
At some point when i have money, i plan to get an HOn3 K-clasz Mikado
Were outside frames ever used for standard gauge locomotives? I can imagine just how wide those would be and how much bigger you could make the boiler.
Not that I've heard of, but I wouldn't be surprised if one existed. That'd be a loading gauge nightmare.
There were a few crazy ones like the Saxon XV HTV with mixed inside and outside frames.
Regular ones were (quickly phased out due to being outdated in 1925)
de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayerische_B_IX
de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayerische_C_III
I could have sworn some weird UK locomotives had both outside frames and inside cylinders, but now I can't find a picture.
One example is the famous "City of Truro". Afaik the Great Western Railway also built some inside frames locomotives for broad gauge meant to be converted to standard gauge outside frame locomotives during the gauge conversion phase.
@@fritz46 Thanks -- and Google even finds the Wikipedia article on this and other sources of pictures of this locomotive. But the "City" class was built new this way years after the conversion was finished. The Wikipedia article on locomotives of the Great Western claims that some locomotives were converted, and the article on GWR class 388 even lists some as being converted from standard gauge to broad gauge and back to standard gauge, but these don't show pictures of converted locomotives.
491 is still my favorite narrow gauge engine.
RGS 20 is one of older 4-6-0 on 3 ft, and is more modernized while ET&WNC 12 hasnt been changed since it left the ET&WNC
Hello from France and thanks for the lot of information on the old steam locomotive. I’am trying to build from scratch a k-27 in Fng scale (with parts of Bachmann) and I have a lot of drawings of K-27 (from internet), some of them with a lot of tubing on the cab’s roof. Could you tell me what are they use for?
Curious what that front to back U bent series of pipes is on the sides of 491.
MANY YEARS AGO , I RODE THE GEORGETOWN LOOP RR THAT HAD A LOCOMOTIVE OF THIS TYPE!
WAS IT THE 491 ??
KEEP THEM ROLLING BROTHERS!!
👍👍
The loop has had the 40, 44, and 111, that are all outside frame 2-8-0's for a number of years. Likely one of those. :)
@@Hyce777 I WAS RATHER CURIOUS ABOUT THIS TYPE AND WONDERED IF THEY WERE BUILT NEW AS SUCH OR WERE OLDER STANDARD GUAGE SMALLER LOCOMOTIVES REBILT AND DOWNSIZED TO MAKE BIGGER NARROW GUAGE POWER!
I SEED TO WORK FOR SANTA FE AND BECAME QUITE INTERESTED IN THEIR STEAM POWER MAITENENCE AND REBUILDS!
THEY DID A LOT OF STUFF EXCHANGING BOILERS BETWEEN DIFFERENT CLASSES TO REBUILD OLDER LOCOMOTIVES INTO YARD SWITCHERS AND LOCAL TRAIN POWER!
THE AT&SF 769 NOW RESIDING AT MADRID NEW MEXICO IS AN EXAMPLE OF AN KITBASH OF THAT SORT!!
OH LAWD HE COMIN
Do you ever think that the museum will put the 3-foot engines on display back in service eventually?
Not likely.
Hyce how about diving in to the differentces between k28 36 37 38s
Were any outside frame locomotives used on the standard gauge networks?
491 almost looks like a monorail on that narrow gauge track!
491 is wider than big boy? Literally mind blown and by how much?
I have always thought it was more that if you needed to convert one of these to standard gauge, simply move the wheels to the outside. Not sure that would actually work given the other components and it might be wider than standard gauge, but I wonder if the D&RG ever thought of it
I could have sworn to having read somewhere about somebody doing the opposite -- rebuilt a standard gauge steam locomotive to an outside-frame narrow gauge locomotive.
Courtesy of Nick Norton in a different comments subthread: Boilers, tenders, and some other parts from D&RGW standard gauge Class 19/C-41 were used to build new D&RGW class K-37 locomotives.
Mmmm counterweights
Very interesting. I never saw an outside frame locomotive. A they difficult to service?
Harder in some ways, easier in others.
Intriguing
Awesome video. I went to Bethlehem tech for Auto mechanics and was in a co-op from 2002-2005. I balanced a few hundred maybe even a thousand or 2 wheels. Do they balance train wheels like professional mechanics do for highway wheels? I mean put it on a centrifugal spindle, spin it right round baby right round. And apply the weights where the degree marker points? Or do they tap it with a hammer listen for vibrations and add weight until the resonating tones of the wheel is tuned? How do they balance those multi-thousand pound wheels?
Hyce, is the frame for the inside narrow the same dimensionally as a frame for an outside standard?
Really kind of makes me wonder why they never tried to do this on standard gauge locomotives, if anything I think it would be a way for them to try and make something even more massive than even the big boy. Who knows, maybe because steam started declining just when the supersized locomotives were hitting their stride we never got to see what the next level would have been.
Loading gauge, lol. When the railroad is designed to deal with a certain max width...
Imma say, outside frame supremacy
Is the CRRM ever considering building another roundhouse stall or a dedicated machine shop? Looks like you could use the space
All we need is.... All the money. Lol. We talk about it daily. We really could. They're working on master plan stuff right now that will hopefully include things like that.
@@Hyce777 Do you have a maintenance pit? I know at my local museum we've been talking about putting one in for years (but that costs a lot of money!)
@@andrewreynolds4949 we do, thankfully.
@@Hyce777 No crawling upside down under locomotives to work on brake systems then!