I had an idea for a cool filler episode for season 7 of Clone Wars to go along with the Bad Batch episodes. Have an episode where the Anakin and the Bad Batch are dispatched to protect Project Imperator. A new prototype Republic super cruiser. Developed late war and on the way for its shakedown cruise before mass production. With Intel that separatist may have gotten word on this super secret project so Anakin and the 501st were deployed alongside the BB to protect it. This I just a test devised by Palpatine, to test out his new and shiny toy for his vision of fleets of super intimidating ships for his Empire. Imagine a kicka$$ scene where a fleet of Venators are getting messed up by a fleet of Seps, then BOOM, A imperator/imperial SD come rolling out behind a secret shipyard or big asteroid and just unleashes holy mass turbolaser fire upon the clankers. And have a cool light imperial March theme play in the background, furthering the feeling of the inevitable March of what's to come. So damn cool! Much sad, much wow.
@@MrDibara @MrOiram46 truly terrifying, yes. but i might have picked the wrong word. i meant that it was something that i associated with hope being subjugated to escort and follow orders from something that i associate with despair. and it signaled a much greater danger than just being in the vicinity of those ships.
If star destroyers were reconfigured with the aft sectin the shape of a rectangle. And the front portion a symmetrical pyramid. They could protect everything behind armor plating including the bridge. Put the hanger in the aft section. Put four of the turbolaser batteries on the bottom. Now you have a much more flexible ship.That's much more well protected. And probably cheaper to make. You could even shorten the ship because it has greater internal volume.
@@mariolaudato8019 In a Straight Brawl? ISD Wins, hands down. Not even close. With fighters? Depends on how close they are to each other. Close range, the ISD still wins, at long range the Venator's massive starfighter complement, over 400 strong, can overwhelm the ISD's TIE Fighters and point defense. Rogue One shows how a few Y-Wings could take down an ISD, and the Venator has 192 of those plus V-19 Torrents and Z95 Headhunters, and 192 v wings, AND 192 Eta Actis-2 fighters, AND 36 ARC-170s. If the Venator can keep out of range, the ISD is Toast.
The biggest problem with the Star Destroyer is that it was designed by artists and not military minded people. Kind of in universe, to inspire fear, and out.
So were the Prequel era ships. If you stop and consider it, the Empire's main concern was holding individual planets accountable for dissent. They weren't fighting a war anymore. The Rebel Alliance at its peak was still tiny compared to anything faced during the Clone Wars. Every loss was costly for the Rebels. Meanwhile, the Empire had unending numbers.
@@jga3958, Prop designers? Concept artists were the first to start... then the prop design team finalized designs (based on how many models they could afford and which model pieces can fit together to make a "new" ship). The ISD, based on the 1993 lore books, was a pretty good ship. They were intended as a "quick response force"... a battleship to fight its way to an objective, a carrier, to help cover its flanks, scouting, and to provide assistance in Stormtroops assaults. Finally, as a troop transport for the battalion of Stormtropers who are to physically seize the objective (if possible) or at the very least control important locations, which will allow the Imperial Army, once they arrive, to continue the pacification process.
I disagree regarding the Star Destroyer. Consider this: the Separatists were gone but there definitely a few holdouts. What they no longer had was an infinite supply of Vulture Droids due to the factories being shut down. You're not going to be seeing these masses of starfighters anymore, mostly just surviving medium-sized warships. Also forget that the Rebellion didn't fully kick off and start to get organized for around 12 full _years_ after the transition to the Empire. They didn't have tons of starfighters to start out with, and what they had were grossly obsolete compared to the TIE. The ISD was absolutely terrifying, and post-war even Rogue Squadron still feared and respected them. They weren't that bad, and still had a respectable complement of starfighters. They also were able to launch a full ground invasion by themselves. The problem is their failure to respond to changing requirements. The early Rebellion didn't have much in the way of capital ships, so they fielded tons of starfighters instead. This proved largely successful. Once they started getting capital ships, they recognized the continued value of mass starfighters and kept them. This is what nobody understands, that the early Empire era was perfect for the ISD. Their failure was that they did not support it or produce other variants of it (possibly trading the walkers and such for more fighters) once its weaknesses started to become apparent.
Honestly the Empire is lucky the Rebllion never got hold of Venators. The Rebels made great use of starfighters and hit-and-run tactics, I feel that the Venator would compliment their tactics greatly.
Even then, most Venators would have been completely obsolete. Sure, a few could be retrofitted to give them a fighting chance but realistically Venis were vulnerable during the GCW. We even got to see the results of what happened when the rebels got their hands on two Lucrehulks. One was used as a flight school. Which is a better use for the Veni at this point. And the second was decked by Death Star 1.
@@hurricaneace143Mobile Fighter stations with heavy turbolasers. Going to destroy anything smaller than a VSD. And launch long range strikes on anything in the heavier tonnage.
Venators are horrible for the Rebellion, they need a lot of dedicated personel, if not refurbished they would have been at least half spent vessels and the rebels would never have enought fighters to make them useful. They only had big capital ships because of Mon Calamari. And you don't need Venators to operate groups of powerfull modern fighters (not the masses of V-wings with clone pilots), as proven various times in the movies.
Let’s be honest, the Venator is sexy. Stately, clean lines, it always looks good on screen. That’s reason enough to be a fan. Pairs well with a side of Secutor. Also, been going over some of the EAW mods, small craft superiority is king.
Carriers are nice, but Kendoshii and Keldabe capital ships will always be my bread and butter, throw a few venators, or other carrier and it's flawless.
@@koc988 i listened. The only main difference between a Venator and ISD is the ISD has better shields, is better protected and has a different kind of hanger that cannot mass launch star fighters.
@@MrChickennugget360 That's the point. The Venators are smaller carriers. That would protect the ISDs from Rebel fighters to which they tended to be very vulnerable. The ISDs are the heavy guns/tanks of the fleets that protect the Venators from heavy fire which they would fall to. They complement one another perfectly.
@Spawned-uy8ip which is pointless, the ISD is already carrying a full 72 ship, wing of fighters. You'd be better off, just pairing ISDs up instead of dragging out the venators. If a wing of fighters and the hull of the ISD can't handle the fight then you might as well grab another ISD. Smaller ships are better off being spread apart to cover places an ISD can't be, and where they aren't necessary. Frankly, a Venator is about as useful as the Alaska-class large cruisers were. Too big and expensive to maintain a lot of them, they were closer to cost to an Iowa Battleship then a Baltimore Heavy cruiser. Yet, there wasn't much they could do that a Baltimore couldn't, and they were nowhere near as capable as a full sized Iowa.
Psychologically, the Venator seems like a firm hand - it could slap, it could punch, or it might not do either. The Imperial Class always seems like a hand fixed in slap mode, just shy of punch mode, and it almost has to do one or both.
I compare a Venator and an Imperial Star Destroyer like two boxers: The Venator is an "out-fighter type" who has a long reach and relies mainly on the jab (short quick strikes) but can't take a lot of hits while the ISD is the "brawler-slugger" who has great punching power and a very strong "chin" (i.e. can take a lot of hits without being affected) but also has a very short reach. Basically the Venator is lethal at long range fighting but is highly vulnerable to up-close fighting so the ISD needs to get up close in order to do any real damage
@@huntermad5668 They're referring to the role that the Venator played as a carrier, rather than its own armament. So, while the guns on the Venator are outclassed by the ISD's, the fighters that are launched from the Venator have more range than the ISD's turbolasers.
to me, the perfect fleet core was always a mix of both ISD/Victory/Tector (especially Tector, funny how in legends they were introduced at the beginning of the clone wars) for a hammer and anvil strategy, with the battle line (think of it as the slow line of mighty dreadnoughts aligned at Jutland) being the anvil that protects the fleet and prevent the event of Venator carrier being overrun and also to break ships of the line and starfighter being the hammer, able to cut down critical points like shield and engine to make the enemy fleet break down upon the weight of the destroyers anvil. Obviously I tend to include picket lines of Arquitens/Lancer/Crusader to protect my own ships from a hammer tactic but that's it, a mix of both type of capacity, in 2 types of ships designed to do what they're going to do
@@hurricaneace143 a Venator is a carrier, and has its own role behind battle lines (hence why I mention tying down lines to prevent Venator being overrun, as it is still a carrier hybrid with a heavy carrier role)
Empire at War is a real-time strategy game set in Star Wars. The naval space battles are cool as hell because you actually have to build a balanced fleet. Tartan gunships are best at taking out fighters and bombers, Victory and Acclamator cruisers are your frigate defenses, Interdictors are specialist ships that fuck up the enemy fleet, and your Star Destroyers are the big bois that lay the smackdown. With mods, you can get Venators which are pretty great, but the Imperial Dreadnaught is the real fuckin' deal.
I love those mods, especially when you play the clone wars one and you unlock the isd's and now your no longer getting merked in space battles as often
Honestly, everything you said made sense. Venators were simply stopped in manufacturing, and the Empire focused on building ISDs. Eventually, the Venator was rendered slowly obsolete as tools and parts made the ships unusable. However, there is nothing to really suggest that the Venator was completely retired, either. The same can be said with the Acclamator and the Arquitens Cruisers which were still being used as well. In the final SW Rebels episode, even the Dreadnoughts were still being used in the Empire, although most likely in a limited support role. Against the Rebel Mon Calamari, it's very likely the Venators would have struggled in battle as the tough shielding would have made the Rebel Cruisers hard to destroy. Most likely, the surviving Venators were simply kept in rear guard duty to help protect other Imperial worlds as the plethora of ISDs were thrown into the frontlines.
to be honest the venators spent 5 years in war then about 10-15 in peace, look what happened to all the essex classes the us build during ww2, used for like 3-5 years, then scrapped because they were expensive, a bit out of date, didnt align with current doctrine and had been run so ragged that it would be simpler to build mostly new carrier than to refit the old ones, it really makes sense, besides, building new ships brings alot of jobs which is important in a post war economy, where the empire went wrong was in not building a dedicated carrier to go with the ISD
The Venators almost immediately, once Tarkin got enough power, started getting scrapped and used for ISD parts. Much like how ISDs started getting scrapped as soon as the New Republic was in power. The only real reason we saw it in Bad Batch and Tales of Empire was because there weren't many ISDs yet.
Honestly that's probably a bit too true. I've always thought of the difference between Thrawn and other imperial officers is comparable to playing a game against AI PvE enemies and playing against another human player. The rebels can easily exploit the predictable behaviours of most imperials, but Thrawn has that PvP experience and knows how to counter them.
Yes, that would require complex plotting and an actual clever idea. Which is still better than shows featuring "genius" of some sort, because a non-genius has trouble writing the part. Either the "genius" is really deux ex machina or everybody else is simply very dumb.
There's a concept called Yomi which comes from an analysis of fighter games. Layer 0 -- you move. Layer 1 -- the opponent counters your move. Layer 2 -- you, knowing the opponent will likely counter your move, modify the move to bypass the counter. Layer 3 -- the opponent, knowing that you know that he is going to counter you, and knowing that you will try to bypass the counter, modifies his counter to defeat your modified move. Layer 4 (0) -- knowing that the opponent could overthink your engagement, you just do the simplest move anyway, rendering the modified counter ineffective. Well-written enemies like Thrawn excel at layers 3 and 4, but yeah, it's hard to keep all this in mind. You not only have to write who does what and why, but you also have to write how everyone thinks their opposition will act next, and how _that_ affects their actions.
@@kahtyman7293. No video game is alpha canon, they invent arbitrary rules in order to facilitate gameplay that don't matter or don't apply to alpha Canon which is any live action filmed material, or things mentioned in live action such as the emperor being referred to in a new hope. You didn't have to see him for him to be Canon because he was mentioned by tarkin. The clone Wars were Canon because they were mentioned by Kenobi, before we saw either one of these things. Just by nature a game is played by very many different people and shooting and killing different people and objects in the game is enough to show with common sense that it simply cannot be Canon.
@@kahtyman7293 I think there are no contradictions between scrapping some and keeping some Venator for the Imperial Navy, In a the bad batch they still renovate some Venator
It was nice seeing hints of the...transitional phase in regards to the Imperial Navy. The gradual implementation of the Tarkin Doctrine where the threat of force became a more potent (and cost effective) weapon than force itself. As you mentioned, with no real near peers to fight and the focus more on holding territory and subjugating fixed worlds, the ISD is pound for pound the perfect tool for the job. The "When all you have is a hammer" approach going a long way to quelling resistance and insurgency without firing a shot. Or enacting punitive reprisals against those foolish enough to challenge the Empire's might. So as the Outer Rim sieges wound down, the Venator would gradually be phased out. The introduction of the ISD marking the true final sign that the Republic of old was gone and the Empire now stood in its place.
Great video! For escorts I go with some Imperial Light Cruisers too, which you do see in Imperial Fleets in 'Rebels' . As for the Bismarck, well after the successful torpedo strike by the Swordfish on the rudder, allowing for Royal Navy battleships and cruisers to catch up, the 16-inch guns of HMS Rodney put really big holes into the German battleship, craters which still can be seen in the wreck, Rodney even might have pulled off a torpedo hit as the 1920s BB at an underwater battery which did fire off a shot at the Bismarck.
I have to admit, one ISD with 2 venators scort combo makes a lot of sense. Enough fighter patrols to keep the rebels away, enough firepower to pacify several star systems at once. But thankfully for the rebels, the imperial navy was too busy back stabbing each other and being consumed by sith A-hole energy and doctrine.
I think the biggest problem was that the Empire never successfully created a true successor for the role the Venator fit. There were a bunch of different vessel types that captured parts of the roles the Venator filled but they never quite recreated the mix of strength of the Venator. If the Empire had been able to make a Venator-equivalent that worked with the TIEs and produced them in acceptable quantities to allow for them to be the primary escorts then the rebellion would have been in trouble. Imagine a Venator successor that had half the primary armament but a very good point defense setup combined with a hanger or multiple hangers that had twice or three times the capacity of the ISD combined with the dedicated control facilities similar to the Venator. The amount of both point defense and fighter cover it would bring to a formation would have been staggering and made small battlegroups very well defended against the tactics the Rebels preferred.
The problem is they didn't have enough pilots to go around. Venator successor would be the same size of Venator, it would compete directly with ISD. If carriers like Venator was so good then Rep planners/ ship designers wouldn;'t come up with Victory then ISD. The shift toward battleship doctrine signify some thing wrong with Venator that they wanted to switch things around. Honestly, the most suspect aspect of Venator is its supposedly capacity of 300-400 starfighters, we never saw they deploy anywhere near that number and comtemporary like Providence only carry 240 drone starfighters. It is likely most Venators carry way less, maybe around 150 range which make all the comromises on the ship moot, they don't need all the structural weaknesses to deploy that. 72 starfighters on ISD is not a small number, practically equal or even higher Star Cruisers of the Rebellion. It is just that they kept using TIE-LN. THe program to switch to TIE- Interceptors was broken due to Endor... If Interceptors fully replaced TIE-LN, the Empire would negate almost all the Rebel starfighter advantage
@@huntermad5668 this, the biggest problem with the ties is the empire kept the TIE-LN in service for 20 years before making a real attempt to replace them en mass, the TIE-LN was designed to fight unshielded predictable short range droid fighters, not shielded piloted starfighters with very strong firepower and hyperdrives
The Rogue Squadron books showed how weak the USD were. 80 concussion missile launchers were enough to get a USD to surrender. Cheap missile launchers bought en masse slapped to thrusters. 3 salvos, like, 20 seconds of fire, was a threat enough to scare a ISD captain
@@huntermad5668 more as a auxiliary power multiplier ship , and anyways cruisers destroyers and escort carriers(light) always escort larger capital ships like Battleships and super carriers
@@sumukhvmrsat6347 Nope, Venator is too large and too manpower/resources intensive to be an escort. The age of massive starfighter wings was over already. Without sufficient number of starfighters then Venators become totally useless but Imperial Navy had enough troubles to fill up their ISD already
@@huntermad5668 @huntermad5668 Venator is at a typical Heavy cruiser size and Heavy cruisers are the Workhorse of any navy and For a ISD it can be a support brother like ship? I don't remember the one word but it's very much covering the negative aspects or a Venator ,interdependent? As it was already planned from the beginning to be a Duo of Victory star destroyer and Venator star destroyer as a Pair and not alone but as the Victor intiative project took long and Venators were already ready that happens as it did imagine 2 ISDs team , then imagine 1 ISD and 5 Venators team , They have same amount of crew not considering stormtroopers on ISD which amount to another 1 and half venators crew Venator isn't Crew or resource intensive at all , it's just a armoured Transport with Teeth with only 8k crew , ISD has 37k crew only and a 2k stormtroopers that is called resource intensive Venators are Power multipliers and flexible , Imagine a Venator full of Tie defenders , I'd rather have that than 1 or 2 ISDs Age of Starfighters or Massive starfighter wings didn't go anywhere , it was Starfighters or even a single starfighter at instances that won the Rebellion in the Galactic Civil war and it's ignorance is what broke the Empire and its acknowledgement as one of many Vital Units is what makes Grand Admiral Thrawn so deadly A single Venator can Control and entire system with its massive starfighter complement and can fight at Many fronts at once by spreading its Starfighters and even in Multiple starsystems too as Starfighters have Hyperdrive and Send Forward reconnaissance, scout , patrol , police and entire system or 2 , and conduct hit run attacks Venator losing its Starfighters is very low resource loss And it can carry Corvettes too on the long runway which can act as escorts or sub capital ships when needed ISD is a single unit and it's Starfighters are chained to it , yes it is sledge hammer in weaponry but that's it , ee can't just base delta zero everything ya know Venators didn't became useless at anypoint , Even in Legends during the second Galactic Civil war Admiral Natassi Daala (who controlled Coruacant till it's taking by Rebellion and also Escaped from the surface in a focking Super star destroyer ) had 1 or more Venators in her Maw irregular fleet and their sudden appearance had changed the tide of a losing battle and Endurance class fleet carrier albeit at 3\5th venators fighter compliment were the Flagships of Many New republic fleets ISD was a powerful ship but Starfighters ruled always
In a nutt shell. The Empire moved towards a more "Standardisation" model. Which meant they could produce mass quantities of the same ship, saving in cost on parts and servicing. Instead of having hundreds of different model ships, each requring variants of different parts. The idea of mass in numbers over quality. Not saying that the ISD werent quality but you get my point. The Emperor was all about projecting power. And having LARGE numbers of devastating ships was his forte. But all the same, all uniform. That was evident in Rise of Skywalker.
Or escorts were put in establishment, but never built due to Death Star cost overruns. Kinda how Yamato and Musashi killed all other IJN production for few years.
@@GenerationTech Yes, Japan had major shortages and the resources needed here basically meant a stop on not only more carriers, but also more heavy cruisers (incl. Japanese equivalent of Alaska class).
That was a great combo, but I'm still partial to many of the combinations shown in the TIE fighter and Rebellion games from the 90s- Carracks, Dreadnoughts, Nebulon-B2s, Escort Carriers, Loronar Strike Cruisers, Victory IIs, Interdictors, and a few others from the RPG sourcebooks like the Vindicator, Gladiator, the Lancer, the Tartan even. Then again, I also love the XG-1 Star Wing Assault Gunboat and the GAT-12G Skipray Blastboat, as well as the Assault Transport, so I may be a bit biased by my own nostalgia for the games of my youth. I can argue that they all have their place, more ship types just makes sense for a galaxy as vast and as old as Star Wars.
I was going to say the reason why they didnt have Venator class around is because of maintenance costs. Those things cost a pretty penny to keep functional and well, the Empire was pretty cheap when it came down to it. A bunch of bean counters that werent interested in spending money on outdated ships that represented the Jedi/Republic.
Maybe more than one Acclamator, but you're absolutely right. Ironically, the fleet composition of the Republic was far more suited to the responsibilities of the Empire (keeping order and stability actoss territory by patrolling, escorting trade lanes, and stamping out rebels, pirates and criminal elements) than the ISDs and other similar such ships. The Venator could just sit in the most secure area ot can find and coordinate the efforts of its various smallcraft formations, which, all having hyperdrives, could be sent out in the exact numbers needed to deal with a bunch of problems at once. Republuc fighters would also have a mych hetter chance at not only pursuing the types of snub-fighters that the Rebels loved so much, but they could guve and rake more hits compared to TIEs as well, given that they were designed for a war in which they had higher-quality pilots but the enemy greatly ournumbered them. Speaking of pilots, yhe Empire sure spent a lot of time and resources to teain great pilots who would just die in a single shot in their TIEs. As for the Acclamators, they could he used very well for several roles. First and foremost, a rapid response warship. The Acclamator has an obscenely powerful Class 0.6 hyperdrive, making it faster in hyperspace than most ships in history NOT named the Millennium Falcon. This would allow Acclamators to serve as a relatively cheap and very reliable tool of enforcement and reinforcement for local forces that are being overwhelmed or ambushed. The Acclamator also has a minimal crew requirement of just 500 people, meaning that assuming that proper logisticsl support exists for the class, it can be deployed in great numbers and cover far more territory than other ships of its tonnage range. It can also setve as a bery effective transport and breakthrough vessel, be that in an invasion, relief, or occupation role. The Acclamator was originally designed as a planetary assault ship for the Clone Army, so it can take a beating before its cargo would be endangered. This, in addition to its OP hyperdrive makes it the ideal ship to quickly send supplies or tropps and vehicles to an area to help the odds of success fir local Imperial forces. Depending on the amount of intel and prep time you have, you could even modify some Acclamatirs with a bumch of extendable airlock-like hardpoints to magnetize snaller support vessels like Gozantis, Assassin corvettes, Lancers &/or Arquitens to their hull, allowing said support ships to ve caroed across hyperspace by the much faster Acclanator and quickly detach into a balanced task force.
The best use we ever see of an ISD is in Rogue One. Showing up at point blank, guns blazing and tearing through anything smaller than it establishing space superiority in seconds. We also see that if caught off guard, a couple ion bombs and a crippled corvette are all that are needed to cripple one ISD in turn.
To be fair, other warships would also cover the ISD's lack of space for starfighters. From Escort Carriers to Acclamators and Victory-2s, other warships could carry starfighters just as well as an ISD. A single Acclamator can carry 80 LAAT gunships, just imagine how many TIEs it can carry. The Storm Commandos even got their own version of an Escort Carrier that was smaller and more versatile than an ISD, but it can also throw TIEs at you like one.
The Imperial Star Destroyer is the embodiment of the concept of a "used future" of a military ship built by a civilization in decline. Those present could not build at the same level as those whom came before them. Go back to SWTOR, the military ships then were more flexible, had long range weapons, and the starfighters had energy shields. (The reason the Tie Fighter did not have shields was the Empire was to cheap to have them added.) To make up for this, the Imperial Star Destroyer had more armor put on to it. Keep in mind how much graft was happening during the last days of the Republic and the days of the Empire. The ruling body wanted products produced by the cheapest bidder.
My friend, i love your channel. Watch it all the time. Need to say something about something you said in this video. You mentioned the Death Star and how Tarkin basically ignored any threats. Well Tarkin was not worried about anything being a danger to the Death Star, not just because of his hubris. He had been in on the design of this project after he stole the credit from Director Krennick. No one could have figured out until it was in battle and the Imperials analyzed the attack runs from the cursed rebels. Up until that point Tarkin and Admiral Motti were very confident in the battle station. When Tarkin was told of the danger he thought they had little chance of hitting that small port before he blew up the rebel stronghold on yavin. Had i been Tarkin, i would have shot the gas planet and let that blast destroy yavin. Now onto the ISDs. Those capital ships were designed to take on multiple combatants at a time. They were pretty indestructable. Yet they showed that differently in the movies so the damn cursed rebels could win. One HUGE example, there us no way possible that the SSD Executor after losing its main bridge would have just keeled over and crashed into the Death Star. The secondary Battle Bridge, if you will, would have taken over immediately and would have moved the ship away from the battle. Some people are saying " well the engines were being attacked and were in the process of blowing up" WRONG. The Executors engines were also protected by a force shield, both particle and ray shield. Yes there were areas that could have been attacked near the engines, but the ship could have popped into Hyperspace, with a captain calling a general retreat. The shield generators up on the bridge wings, totally stupid. Too easy for any ship or asteroid to crash into. They were heavily protected by multiple shields of their own. That damn crash would have just skirted across the shield leaving the bridge fully protected. Now one of my biggest pet peeves. Hans Imperial Llamda class shuttle. Its crew compliment was around 25 plus pilots. So where did allnof those other damn rebels come from on the planet???????????????? If the Imperials had to lower the shields for han to take the shuttle down to Endor, then where did the extra rebels come from? A legion of stormtroopers totals 14,000 troops including troopers, officers, logistics, medics, etc, etc. So how in the hell did 25 rebels and a bunch of damn teddy bears succeed in blowing up the shield generator. Not possible. George Lucas you screŵd up the writing here.
A few years ago (it might even be half a decade holy shit) Eck put out a video about his ideal Imp navy using only what the Imp navy had available. The Venator was acting as a support to an ISD and the rest of the fleet being ships meant to be picket vessels or essentially gun ships. The Venator unlike other imperial carriers could actually keep up with an ISD, and the ISD if not having to basically do everything could be better dedicated to being a pure weapons platform. It basically fixes the flaw with imperial doctrine, it’s much cheaper than fielding a bunch of ISDs in a fleet and it’s much more flexible while also being able to fulfill peacetime duties of anti-piracy. It’s basically everything the Imp navy could be.
and he still missed the point of everyone prior to WW2 thinking WW1 was going to be another Battleship vs Battleship war, hence why they made so many, not realizing were History was heading towards
Just a reminder, the ISD I carried 72 fighter craft. That’s about on par with a Nimitz class super carrier. I truly think it’s a case of captains not knowing how to utilize their fighter wings and the pilots not working together to fight an enemy.
@@paulrasmussen8953 oh absolutely not. I love the Venator, even more than the ISD. But if you take a standard load out, take out the twelve bombers, you still have sixty fighters against usually four to eight bombers. No amount of plot armor should be able to stop that.
It would be really cool to see if in Ahsoka season 2 or the Dave Filoni stand-alone movie Thrawn manages to find a few Venators and fix them up to compliment his fleet. The Imperial Remnant is already scrounging off whatever scraps they can find as it is, so Thrawn could turn all the barely flying junk heaps the remnant has into a formidable tactical force.
I think that A New Hope said it best when they were talking about the attack on the Death Star. "The Empire doesn’t consider one-man fighters to be much of a threat."
Fun Fact, those shore emplacements you mentioned used smaller guns from retired or left overs from upgraded battleships, the modern battleships had the larger guns.
The Venator make sense as escort vessels for the ISD. It's almost like the vessels were meant to work together before Tarkin had his "bright" idea for battle doctrine. Just imagine how potent these fleets could have been if they'd been left mixed as they were. The only additions needed would have been some Acclimator groups as, essentially, larger heavy bombers/mobile bases. Something akin to the Alkesh in use.
5:00 What's more likely is cost cutting and power management... City sized blasters are not power efficent and the ship in battle is meant to constantly be shooting them so it likely can't shot point defense blasters.
The final episode of Bad Batch and the 2nd episode of Tales of the Empire represent a transition period for the Imperial Navy shifting from Republic to Imperial naval doctrine. New Imperial Star Destroyers escorted by Venator Star Destroyers. V-Wings were in use till they got the TIE production lines fully started.
2:20 'just imagine what these massive artillery towers could do' *recalls episode shown on screen where multiple blasts land a foot away from Kanan and don't even faze him*
The reason why this in transition period of the empire, sees their fleet be so effective and badass is because it is the fleet that the republic was supposed to have by the end of the clone wars. An all arms fleet of carriers: such as venators, backed up by missile boats: victory class destroyers, battleships in the imperator renamed imperial class destroyers and backed up by effective fleet of multiple escorts and fighters. Allowing it to patrol and protect all of its territory and meet any threat that might crop off and eventually the threat of the rebel alliance if it had been kept as it was for entirety of the empire's reign.
Hey Allen at 4:30 you say its not about the size of your turbo laser, but more how you use it. Trust me guys, bigger or smaller your...closest ally...has a preferred or ideal size for turbo laser compatibility. Additionally, you never want to hear about your rival having a larger turbo laser than you, regardless of what your ally's preferences are.
7:40 - You're probably already aware of this but the Malevolence and it's whole saga was directly inspired by the Bismarck, as confirmed by Filoni himself. The Separatists even had a sister ship to the Malevolence they avoided using in direct action after the Malevolence was destroyed, just like the Tirpitz. And the key element in destroying both the Bismarck and the Malevolence was torpedo bombers or whatnot. I even think that locking the ship's steering smack into that moon references how the Bismarck's damaged steering was crucial to landing the hits that took it down.
11:30 And technological advances in blaster technology and shield systems eventually caused those CW-era tech to become obsolete. Like Cold-war era weaponry used in modern times.
3:47 Limitation in resources, the vast size of space for patrol or field of operations for capitol ships, chance of combat, and an officer’s own arrogance are all elements that are factored into deciding if an escort is necessary or not.
What I think happened is the mixed fleet arrangement was indeed a thing for a while, however Escorts perform the job of taking fire away from the Primary Capital ship, meaning they were destroyed first during the engagement leaving only the Star Destroyer and because of Tarkin, they were simply never replaced.
You actually brought up a flaw in the Star Destroyers without realizing it… It was designed for broadside barrages. In a straight up fight, that would be an absolutely tragic idea. Look at the Battle of Jutland or literally any other naval battle. Broadsides just give your enemy more to shoot at. Ideally, the firepower of a SD would be forward facing to utilize the geometry of the hull, turning it into a space Dorito of death, while minimizing its target profile. Defensive weapons would line the midline of the hull and stretch the length of it, and center around the control tower (the IJN Yamato has a great example of this since the gun emplacements are very distinct from the super structure).
All capital ships sunk at Jutland were lightly armored battlecruisers. Not a single battleship was sunk. Given what Yamato did to USS Gambier Bay and Johnston, that’s a great example indeed.
@@lucashenry6281 Yes they were. They were battleships with thinner armor to gain a higher speed. They were as large as battleships and carried battleship caliber guns. The UK lost three battlecruisers -HMS Invincible -HMS Queen Mary -HMS Indefatigable While the Germans lost one-SMS Lutzow The Germans also lost one elderly pre dreadnought, but it was far from a capital ship by that point due to how outdated it was and it was sunk by destroyer torpedoes.
@@metaknight115 The German battlecruisers (SMS _Lutzow_ included) went the opposite route as the British ones - smaller and lighter guns, but battleship-grade armor. That's why _Invincible, Queen Mary,_ & _Indefatigable_ got wiped out in seconds each with thousands of casualties between them, but _Lutzow_ lasted several hours before the crew had to abandon ship. (Also, _Derfflinger_ and _Seydlitz_ took nearly as much damage, but both made it back to port.)
5 Venator fleets for every 1 star destroyer. Venator starfighters for patrolling and anti-capital ship bombing runs, and star destroyers for orbital bombardment.
Holy crap. You were talking about the strengths and weaknesses of the ISD and Venator, and I realized that the republic and empire were literally fighting each other’s preferred battles. I mean, the republic was facing the CIS, which had some short range fighters but spent most of their time fighting it out with capital ships. They also spent a lot of time fighting large scale land battles with lots of troops. What is the ISDs strengths? Strong armour, weapons designed to take out large ships, large troop capacities for planetary attack, at the cost of small fighter compliments and anti-fighter weapons. On the other hand, what did the empire face? Limited numbers of capital ships, but large fighter forces with long range advanced fighters and bombers that conducted most of their attacks, with small scale land actions against small rebel cells. What do the ventators excel at? Carrier duties with large numbers of small ships, point defence weapons and small troop contingents good for boarding actions or small planetary skirmishes. I get having both together is amazing, but if you gave the republic the ISD and the empire the Venator, both navies suddenly seem a lot more comfortable with the battles they face.
What's impressive is the Empire had the Executor and at least three Imperial II-class star destroyers present at Hoth. They were not able to break the shields of the Rebel base on Hoth.
"Do refrain from intercepting an enemy whose banners are in perfect order, do refrain from attacking an army drawn up in calm and confident array: -this is the art of studying circumstances. It is a military law not to advance uphill against the enemy, nor to oppose him when he comes downhill." -Sun Tzu. Personally, I'd like the ultimate Combo, Combine the size of the Imp Star destroyer with the Venator, Then you can tack on more guns but keep that nice fighter compliment. Then make the victory class with those side missile bays the same size as an Imp SD and then combine it with the landing gear and storage as a acclamator and bada bing you get a fleet of heavy assault aircraft carriers with Victory class battleships that also work as dropships for the army.
The Empire in SW is similar in some ways to 40K, send in millions of men in massive ground campaigns. But then you look at the space fleets and even the Imperium in 40K uses mainly mixed fleets(you'd think 40K would be the setting guilty of using only the BIGGEST ships).
If you look at at the design in the cutaway view, and keep in mind that the planets of the Mid and Outer Rim are sparsely populated (based on what we see in the films and TV shows), you begin to see the Imperial Star Destroyer wasn't intended to be a capital combat ship. Its a mobile repression unit. From that point of view a wing TIE fighters, a couple of AT-ATs and 9,700 Stormtroopers would probably be enough to cow a population. If not, then I imagine the Star Destroyer pointing its broadside at your population centers would end your defiance pretty quickly, even if your cities are ray shielded.
In last jedi . There were fighters the captain didn't launch quickly enough and thier were 3 batlecruiser escorts , she should have been completely protected, And even with the delay only one ship got into fireing position
Nothing in that movie made any sense. From the drop down bombers to when They called Kylo Ren back because they 'couldn't support' him in his fighter, when TIEs are just disposable... and Hux couldn't care less about him.
@@goldfishprime Dont take it like i am trying to defended that dumpster of a fire that is the sequel trilogy, but i though that the New order didnt have the manpower like Empire had (like literally their army were kidnapped kids if i am not mistaken) so they gave their ties shields to better protect them... So in my pov Hux called of the attack because their fighters and pilots werent as disposable as were the empire fighters and pilots and also Kylo was literally a "high ranking" guy... he didnt really have a rank but he was the right hand of the man in charge... much like Vader. However i wouldnt even be surprised if i just made most of that up because the writers and directors didnt really seem to have many braincells writing those 3 movies
I did an old video where I basically talk about the dynamics of the first order officer corp. it’s really interesting you have like the old guard who survived the galactic civil war, real blood and guts type of line officers. And then you have hux’s generation fanatic and obsessed with statistics. There’s a lot of tension between these two groups and the captain of the mandatory siege dreadnaught wanted to deploy fighters but hux didn’t follow proper procedure basically. th-cam.com/video/SALiFoRZZng/w-d-xo.htmlsi=v-WnZhrpMT6FyBWg
@@GenerationTech yes I think I remember it ( thanks) I do remember reading in the last jedi visual dictionary, The captain of the mandator was an imperial navy officer, and was unimpressed and always a bit surprised at how young is officers and crew were , The first order had a ( sub adult) corp , like Hitler youth, or pol pot , ideologically pure . . I am interested in the elder hux he seemed more competent then his son . I remember his man cardinal. Good character
I agree wholeheartedly that whilst the ISD, is impressive, it’s completely unnecessary for the typical sort of missions such ships are designed for, whereas the empire should’ve focused on smaller but more numerous ships rather than the one large ship managing an entire system
In my opinion, the perfect Imperial fleet would be an ISD, Secutor duo, recreating that Venator, Victory dynamic, Victory Star Destroyers supported by Gladiators, and a mix of Ton Falk and Raider Corvettes providing defense against fighters.
More about the Empire went into the big gun approach and that is the system that they adopted as technically speaking no one in the Extended Universe had true access to warships only civilian ships with guns installed and the original Rebel fleet was composed of civilian ships, outdated Old Republic and CIS warships they salvage along what they stole from the Empire. Eventually they gained actual warships from an ally that had the manufacturing capabilities to make actual warships. Now in Cannon, they are introducing planetary defense warships that I find outrageous that the Empire would allow those planets have them or produce them.
5:07 The design is entirely Sith-inspired with the triangle shape and the emphasis on the attack with little consideration for defense of any lives in pursuit of the ship’s crew’s goals.
In the case of Thrawn's escort of Venators, I figure at the time he was probably working with the left overs. The Empire's bigotry is well known, and Thrawn was often given the short end of the stick. Those were probably among the last Venators still flying. BUT, knowing Thrawn, he probably said "I'll take them." He undoubtedly saw the utility in having them as part of his fleet. But you have narrow minded politicians like Tarkin in charge, so they attribute any successes by the likes of Thrawn to statistical anomalies, and go ahead with their poor ideas. We have to remember that much of Star Wars is written by people who have not studied military doctrine and tactics. The rule of cool wins over realism. That being said, there is precedent for such boneheaded decisions and policies in real life. No military is perfect. The Empire is just more imperfect.
The “Cruiser” that can dock on the bottom is more of a corvette. Cruisers are still capital ships and were the top tier naval vessels before the HMS Dreadnaut
"You've never heard of the Millennium Falcon? It's the ship that made the Kessel Run in less than twelve parsecs. I've outrun Imperial starships, not the local bulk-cruisers, mind you. I'm talking about the big Corellian ships now." - Han Solo. Yes, the Empire had smaller class ships.
The Venator was made to fight a war, the Empire Class was made to not fight at all, they were supposed to look scary on paper, so they had ridiculous amounts of ridiculously oversized guns. They were meant to scare the regular Joes of the galaxy into submission, which also worked fairly well. And in certain situations they also were competent, as the ridiculously oversized guns weren't made of cardboard after all.
There is also the question if a captain from the Imperial Academy could even use a Venator the right way. Given, Imperial doctrine was simple, easy to understand and relied on following orders. A captain of a Venator doesn't have the time to wait for orders, because an enemy might close in before they arrive and a flotilla or fleet commander might use a Venator in his fleet like he would a Star Destroyer. This becomes even more a problem in the time before the Rebellion became more effective, With no enemy to fight, Venator's might have been give to captains fresh from the academy, went on patrol duty, intercepting smugglers and hunting pirates. Duties the Venator doesn't use much of it's fighter complement for. When the Rebellion became more effective, the pilots might have lost their edge if the Venator's even had their full fighter complement any more and it hadn't been cut down because they weren't using them and/or for budget reasons.
So, I don't know the more recent stuff as well, but as for the original trilogy, one big reason that you wouldn't see much in the way of escort ships is that, by and large, during the original trilogy, the Rebellion was greatly underestimated, and, frankly, in two of those movies, they really weren't that great of a threat on a strategic level - in New Hope and Empire Strikes Back, the Rebels are implied to have one base - Yavin IV in New Hope and Hoth in Empire Strikes Back...and in both movies, the Empire is moving in for the kill. In a New Hope, the Rebellion can only muster, what, about 18 fighters or so to strike at the Death Star? And that's their main base, possibly their only base! They don't have much...but they have good intel and take advantage of the Empire's strategic idiocy in sending the Death Star in alone, only launching a handful of fighters in defense, and allowing an ace pilot's pride to get in the way of a good response to their attack. (Yes, said ace pilot is the second in command of the empire and can choke you to death with a thought, but that doesn't make Vader's choice to have his wingmen just fly in parade formation behind him while he shoots the enemy down one by one a good call.) By Empire Strikes Back, there's some indication that the Rebellion rallied for a bit after the destruction of the Death Star - the destruction of a highly regarded civilization like Alderaan coupled with the Rebellion's victory against the Death Star would produce such an effect, for sure - but by the start of the movie, the Rebellion is again beleaguered, having been hunted down to the point where inhospitable planets like Hoth that are so cold that it's difficult to make equipment work are the only option for bases, with much of their fleet hiding in interstellar space (possibly intergalactic space, though the shot of a galaxy with stars all around it at the end of Empire is deeply weird from an astronomy perspective, maybe something along the lines of hiding in one of the Magellanic Clouds that are "close" to the Milky Way?) Point being they're again on the back foot, and not really a threat. Thus, by the time we get the one big fleet battle of the trilogy - the Battle of Endor - the Empire has been dealing with what's largely an insurgent threat, as opposed to an enemy that presents a navy with similar capabilities, for quite some time. Given the Empire's preference for terror tactics over sound military doctrine, it's entirely reasonable that they might just not bother with the escorts - the escorts counter a threat that doesn't exist and imply that the mobile military base that an ISD functionally operates as might actually be vulnerable, an implication that reduces the fear factor for the general public. Most of the old extended universe books take place after the Battle of Endor, at a point when the Rebellion has killed the Emperor, declared the foundation of a New Republic, and is making increasing territorial gains (which rather quickly include the conquest of Coruscant, the galactic capital), while the Empire shrinks in power and grows increasingly fractured with various Imperial admirals striking out on their own as warlords over their own little territories. By this point the Empire is very quickly learning to take the Rebellion/New Republic as an increasingly dire threat, and is also going through a rather brutal process that removes the overconfident and stupid commanders from the ranks. (If the Rebellion doesn't get them, Isard or a neighbouring ex-Imperial warlord will). Those who mount a major threat quickly learn to rely less on the raw might of an overwhelmingly powerful Empire and more on sound strategic doctrine - this includes things like incorporating ships like the Lancer class frigate with it's strong focus on countering the starfighter strikes that cause the ISD so many problems into their maneuvers. Relatively few of these specialist ships exist as the Imperial Shipyards can only churn out so many (and eventually the primary shipyard at Kuat is incorporated into the New Republic, vastly reducing the Empire's capacity for producing new ships). (Of course, if you're going by the Disney canon, I have very little understanding of what happens after the Battle of Endor. How you get the Empire defeated, a New Republic established, and then the First Order being capable of secretly building something as absurdly expensive as Starkiller Base while only earning the ire of a splinter faction ...I...even the first movie didn't make much sense, Last Jedi jumped the shark completely and then somehow Palpatine returned and fans of the old star wars canon were so confused. Because seriously, "Somehow Palpatine Returned" was done in the Dark Empire comic books, which were honestly more coherent than Disney's mess despite being hilariously over the top in their own right. ...Honestly, I'm fine with Disney playing around in the early Empire days, but I kinda wish they'd just left the post Endor books in play rather than doing this...nonsense.)
I'd say what the Imperial Navy should have done was create a Venator-style carrier designed with TIE fighters in mind. I can imagine Thrawn seeing the advantages of such an escort ship, especially one equipped with TIE Defenders.
Essentially, the problem with ISD is mostly its TIE-LN complement overstay their welcome. If the plan to replace them with TIE-interceptors finished then the Rebellion would lose all their edges in starfighters. ISD with Interceptors are totally capable of crushing any Rebel capital they faced except things like Home one with their Red/Rogue squadron
I hope you made an analysis of what would happen of an fleet of star destroyers face years later an hypethtical forgotten cis fleet with an invisible model of command ship and few droid frigates and tie fighters would sworm against rei fighters hyena bombers and vulture droids if the modern empire with their flaws could outclass a fleet of droids and an super tactical droid
Chan syndulla actually uses a fleet of old vulture droids and a bunch of space mines to take out emperor palatine’s star destroyer. Really an epic assassination attempt. Even with that old tech swarming works.
The ideal imperial fleet would contain three venators for every ISD. The ISD handles ship to ship bonbardment while the venator uses its fighters as pickets. Sprinkle in a few victory crusiers and boom
Also, I'd hardly call this the peak of the Empire's naval power. I can imagine a couple of Mon Calamari Cruisers, some old fighters, and some Corellian Corvettes serving as anti-fighter screens would devastate an ISD and its Venator escorts. The Mon Cal cruisers would gang up on the lone ISD, the Corellian Corvettes would mow down the masses of fighters unleashed by the Venators, and some old-ass Y-Wings can blow holes on those Venators while the lone ISD is sunk by the Mon Calamari Cruisers. Now if you have three ISDs, that's a different picture. They'd be able to match the Mon Cal Cruisers in battle, maybe even destroy them. Two of the ISDs would engage the Mon Calamari Cruisers and hold them off, their thick armor and shields making it hard for the Y-Wings and other fighters to even damage them, while the third ISD annihilates the Corellian Corvettes with its superior firepower and tractor beam. Once that's done and the corvettes are gone, they'll release their TIE Fighters to mop up the enemy fighters while the TIE Bombers and the ISD that was fighting the corvettes would turn to join its brethren in destroying the Mon Calamari cruisers. Once again, Alan, there is a method to the Emperor's madness. Question his designs if you must, but they worked. There is a reason why the Rebellion spent most of the Galactic Civil War in hiding, and why elite groups like Rogue Squadron would only operate for a few minutes before leaving, since they know that if they stay too long, ISD reinforcements will appear in droves, and they'll have to retreat. Most of the ISDs were destroyed in the civil war between Imperial factions when they had a disagreement of opinion on who should succeed Palpatine; one of the New Republic historians even estimated that if the Grand Admirals agreed on joining forces against the Alliance after Endor, the New Republic would've been strangled in its crib before it was born.
I’m actually curious about how the Imperial navy doctrine would be during the transition period between the Republic and Imperial navy like the fleet composition and stuff like that
As I always said, the Imperator, the Venator, and the Tector were supposed to act together, with the Venator providing the fighter cover and first strike, the Tector the HEAVY firepower, and the Imperator the coordination plus a reasonable mix of fighters, firepower, and troops capable of solo missions. And I'm pretty sure the reason the Venator was taken out was Palpatine's need to make everything his and petty hatred for the Jedi... Thus the Imperator being renamed Imperial Star Destroyer and the Venator, AKA Jedi Attack Cruiser, being phased out.
![ร้อยพ่อพันแม่ - WanMai [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/XY2pNYASEbg/mqdefault.jpg)
Absolutely loved seeing the Venators escort the ISD. It makes so much sense and really just complements the IDS and covers it's lack of Starfighters.
Yeah they got this right
The animators are fuckin Legends
Don’t need to cover it when it has the superior fighters already
@@thechroniclegamer4285
Yeah, Switching to TIE-Interceptors and most Rebel starfighter would be much more vulnerable.
I had an idea for a cool filler episode for season 7 of Clone Wars to go along with the Bad Batch episodes. Have an episode where the Anakin and the Bad Batch are dispatched to protect Project Imperator. A new prototype Republic super cruiser. Developed late war and on the way for its shakedown cruise before mass production. With Intel that separatist may have gotten word on this super secret project so Anakin and the 501st were deployed alongside the BB to protect it. This I just a test devised by Palpatine, to test out his new and shiny toy for his vision of fleets of super intimidating ships for his Empire.
Imagine a kicka$$ scene where a fleet of Venators are getting messed up by a fleet of Seps, then BOOM, A imperator/imperial SD come rolling out behind a secret shipyard or big asteroid and just unleashes holy mass turbolaser fire upon the clankers. And have a cool light imperial March theme play in the background, furthering the feeling of the inevitable March of what's to come.
So damn cool! Much sad, much wow.
seeing an ISD flanked by 2 venators is honestly terrifying.
Now imagine groups of ISD and Venator pairs escorting a Bellator-Class Fast Dreadnought or an Assertor-Class
@@MrOiram46 _Imagine them escorting a Nebula-class Star Destroyer._ *Say goodbye to your planet.*
@@MrDibara @MrOiram46 truly terrifying, yes. but i might have picked the wrong word. i meant that it was something that i associated with hope being subjugated to escort and follow orders from something that i associate with despair. and it signaled a much greater danger than just being in the vicinity of those ships.
no weaknesses
terrified of fiction lol
I think we can all agree an imperial star destroyer next to the venator is a sight to behold 😍
Agreed
If star destroyers were reconfigured with the aft sectin the shape of a rectangle.
And the front portion a symmetrical pyramid.
They could protect everything behind armor plating including the bridge.
Put the hanger in the aft section.
Put four of the turbolaser batteries on the bottom.
Now you have a much more flexible ship.That's much more well protected.
And probably cheaper to make.
You could even shorten the ship because it has greater internal volume.
Imagine if the venator class star destroyer fights against the imperial star destroyer
@@mariolaudato8019 In a Straight Brawl? ISD Wins, hands down. Not even close. With fighters? Depends on how close they are to each other. Close range, the ISD still wins, at long range the Venator's massive starfighter complement, over 400 strong, can overwhelm the ISD's TIE Fighters and point defense. Rogue One shows how a few Y-Wings could take down an ISD, and the Venator has 192 of those plus V-19 Torrents and Z95 Headhunters, and 192 v wings, AND 192 Eta Actis-2 fighters, AND 36 ARC-170s. If the Venator can keep out of range, the ISD is Toast.
@@wylandnares8642 that's neat
The biggest problem with the Star Destroyer is that it was designed by artists and not military minded people. Kind of in universe, to inspire fear, and out.
*architects
So were the Prequel era ships. If you stop and consider it, the Empire's main concern was holding individual planets accountable for dissent. They weren't fighting a war anymore.
The Rebel Alliance at its peak was still tiny compared to anything faced during the Clone Wars. Every loss was costly for the Rebels. Meanwhile, the Empire had unending numbers.
@@railfandepotproductions Ehhh... Engineers? Not really sure what to call them. But yeah, them.
@@jga3958,
Prop designers? Concept artists were the first to start... then the prop design team finalized designs (based on how many models they could afford and which model pieces can fit together to make a "new" ship).
The ISD, based on the 1993 lore books, was a pretty good ship. They were intended as a "quick response force"... a battleship to fight its way to an objective, a carrier, to help cover its flanks, scouting, and to provide assistance in Stormtroops assaults. Finally, as a troop transport for the battalion of Stormtropers who are to physically seize the objective (if possible) or at the very least control important locations, which will allow the Imperial Army, once they arrive, to continue the pacification process.
I disagree regarding the Star Destroyer. Consider this: the Separatists were gone but there definitely a few holdouts. What they no longer had was an infinite supply of Vulture Droids due to the factories being shut down. You're not going to be seeing these masses of starfighters anymore, mostly just surviving medium-sized warships. Also forget that the Rebellion didn't fully kick off and start to get organized for around 12 full _years_ after the transition to the Empire. They didn't have tons of starfighters to start out with, and what they had were grossly obsolete compared to the TIE. The ISD was absolutely terrifying, and post-war even Rogue Squadron still feared and respected them. They weren't that bad, and still had a respectable complement of starfighters. They also were able to launch a full ground invasion by themselves. The problem is their failure to respond to changing requirements. The early Rebellion didn't have much in the way of capital ships, so they fielded tons of starfighters instead. This proved largely successful. Once they started getting capital ships, they recognized the continued value of mass starfighters and kept them. This is what nobody understands, that the early Empire era was perfect for the ISD. Their failure was that they did not support it or produce other variants of it (possibly trading the walkers and such for more fighters) once its weaknesses started to become apparent.
It’s about time you admitted it. Better late than never. Your humility is truly beautiful. Incredible actually.
Honestly the Empire is lucky the Rebllion never got hold of Venators. The Rebels made great use of starfighters and hit-and-run tactics, I feel that the Venator would compliment their tactics greatly.
Even then, most Venators would have been completely obsolete. Sure, a few could be retrofitted to give them a fighting chance but realistically Venis were vulnerable during the GCW. We even got to see the results of what happened when the rebels got their hands on two Lucrehulks. One was used as a flight school. Which is a better use for the Veni at this point. And the second was decked by Death Star 1.
@@hurricaneace143Mobile Fighter stations with heavy turbolasers.
Going to destroy anything smaller than a VSD. And launch long range strikes on anything in the heavier tonnage.
Venators are horrible for the Rebellion, they need a lot of dedicated personel, if not refurbished they would have been at least half spent vessels and the rebels would never have enought fighters to make them useful. They only had big capital ships because of Mon Calamari. And you don't need Venators to operate groups of powerfull modern fighters (not the masses of V-wings with clone pilots), as proven various times in the movies.
@@Balrog2005 find and use gcw CIS droids to automate most of the crew requirement
The Rebellion chose fighters that had hyperdrives so they wouldn't need carriers.
Let’s be honest, the Venator is sexy. Stately, clean lines, it always looks good on screen. That’s reason enough to be a fan. Pairs well with a side of Secutor. Also, been going over some of the EAW mods, small craft superiority is king.
The Gungan eyestalks kill it for me.
Don't forget enough geometry to keep it interesting looking.
Carriers are nice, but Kendoshii and Keldabe capital ships will always be my bread and butter, throw a few venators, or other carrier and it's flawless.
@@JustanotherconsumerJar Jar Ship 💀
The mixed fleet is like having a sniper be guarded by an machine gunner, no one is getting pass that at any range
its silly since the Venators and ISDs have similar capabilities.
@@MrChickennugget360 Tell us you didn't listen to anything GenTech just said in this video you presumably watched along with us, without telling us.
@@koc988 i listened. The only main difference between a Venator and ISD is the ISD has better shields, is better protected and has a different kind of hanger that cannot mass launch star fighters.
@@MrChickennugget360 That's the point. The Venators are smaller carriers. That would protect the ISDs from Rebel fighters to which they tended to be very vulnerable. The ISDs are the heavy guns/tanks of the fleets that protect the Venators from heavy fire which they would fall to. They complement one another perfectly.
@Spawned-uy8ip which is pointless, the ISD is already carrying a full 72 ship, wing of fighters. You'd be better off, just pairing ISDs up instead of dragging out the venators. If a wing of fighters and the hull of the ISD can't handle the fight then you might as well grab another ISD. Smaller ships are better off being spread apart to cover places an ISD can't be, and where they aren't necessary. Frankly, a Venator is about as useful as the Alaska-class large cruisers were. Too big and expensive to maintain a lot of them, they were closer to cost to an Iowa Battleship then a Baltimore Heavy cruiser. Yet, there wasn't much they could do that a Baltimore couldn't, and they were nowhere near as capable as a full sized Iowa.
Psychologically, the Venator seems like a firm hand - it could slap, it could punch, or it might not do either. The Imperial Class always seems like a hand fixed in slap mode, just shy of punch mode, and it almost has to do one or both.
I compare a Venator and an Imperial Star Destroyer like two boxers: The Venator is an "out-fighter type" who has a long reach and relies mainly on the jab (short quick strikes) but can't take a lot of hits while the ISD is the "brawler-slugger" who has great punching power and a very strong "chin" (i.e. can take a lot of hits without being affected) but also has a very short reach. Basically the Venator is lethal at long range fighting but is highly vulnerable to up-close fighting so the ISD needs to get up close in order to do any real damage
Not really, Barbet turrets of ISD outrange Venator turbolasers.
@@huntermad5668
They're referring to the role that the Venator played as a carrier, rather than its own armament. So, while the guns on the Venator are outclassed by the ISD's, the fighters that are launched from the Venator have more range than the ISD's turbolasers.
I’m pretty sure the armaments of the ISD have greater range and power than those on the venator
to me, the perfect fleet core was always a mix of both ISD/Victory/Tector (especially Tector, funny how in legends they were introduced at the beginning of the clone wars) for a hammer and anvil strategy, with the battle line (think of it as the slow line of mighty dreadnoughts aligned at Jutland) being the anvil that protects the fleet and prevent the event of Venator carrier being overrun and also to break ships of the line and starfighter being the hammer, able to cut down critical points like shield and engine to make the enemy fleet break down upon the weight of the destroyers anvil.
Obviously I tend to include picket lines of Arquitens/Lancer/Crusader to protect my own ships from a hammer tactic but that's it, a mix of both type of capacity, in 2 types of ships designed to do what they're going to do
None of those would have had the carrier role though.
@@hurricaneace143 a Venator is a carrier, and has its own role behind battle lines (hence why I mention tying down lines to prevent Venator being overrun, as it is still a carrier hybrid with a heavy carrier role)
Empire at War is a real-time strategy game set in Star Wars. The naval space battles are cool as hell because you actually have to build a balanced fleet. Tartan gunships are best at taking out fighters and bombers, Victory and Acclamator cruisers are your frigate defenses, Interdictors are specialist ships that fuck up the enemy fleet, and your Star Destroyers are the big bois that lay the smackdown.
With mods, you can get Venators which are pretty great, but the Imperial Dreadnaught is the real fuckin' deal.
I love those mods, especially when you play the clone wars one and you unlock the isd's and now your no longer getting merked in space battles as often
Me invading Yavin with 50 Star Destroyers and nothing else.
Idd say you only need star destroyers. You can use the tie fighters it deploys to counter enemy fighters.
@@nton8057 but they get trashed by the CR90s and so on and your captials usually fight against other capital ships
@@xSoulhunterDKx Focus fire haha
Honestly, everything you said made sense. Venators were simply stopped in manufacturing, and the Empire focused on building ISDs. Eventually, the Venator was rendered slowly obsolete as tools and parts made the ships unusable.
However, there is nothing to really suggest that the Venator was completely retired, either. The same can be said with the Acclamator and the Arquitens Cruisers which were still being used as well. In the final SW Rebels episode, even the Dreadnoughts were still being used in the Empire, although most likely in a limited support role.
Against the Rebel Mon Calamari, it's very likely the Venators would have struggled in battle as the tough shielding would have made the Rebel Cruisers hard to destroy. Most likely, the surviving Venators were simply kept in rear guard duty to help protect other Imperial worlds as the plethora of ISDs were thrown into the frontlines.
to be honest the venators spent 5 years in war then about 10-15 in peace, look what happened to all the essex classes the us build during ww2, used for like 3-5 years, then scrapped because they were expensive, a bit out of date, didnt align with current doctrine and had been run so ragged that it would be simpler to build mostly new carrier than to refit the old ones, it really makes sense, besides, building new ships brings alot of jobs which is important in a post war economy, where the empire went wrong was in not building a dedicated carrier to go with the ISD
@@squgieman Meanwhile Hammerhead class with about 4000 years in service is like: "Those youngsters..."
@@paztom with very little tech advancement.
The Venators almost immediately, once Tarkin got enough power, started getting scrapped and used for ISD parts. Much like how ISDs started getting scrapped as soon as the New Republic was in power. The only real reason we saw it in Bad Batch and Tales of Empire was because there weren't many ISDs yet.
The honest explaination is that it's far easier for their writers to make their villains stupid than to make their heroes smart.
That might explain real life a bit too well. 💀
Honestly that's probably a bit too true. I've always thought of the difference between Thrawn and other imperial officers is comparable to playing a game against AI PvE enemies and playing against another human player. The rebels can easily exploit the predictable behaviours of most imperials, but Thrawn has that PvP experience and knows how to counter them.
Yes, that would require complex plotting and an actual clever idea.
Which is still better than shows featuring "genius" of some sort, because a non-genius has trouble writing the part. Either the "genius" is really deux ex machina or everybody else is simply very dumb.
There's a concept called Yomi which comes from an analysis of fighter games.
Layer 0 -- you move.
Layer 1 -- the opponent counters your move.
Layer 2 -- you, knowing the opponent will likely counter your move, modify the move to bypass the counter.
Layer 3 -- the opponent, knowing that you know that he is going to counter you, and knowing that you will try to bypass the counter, modifies his counter to defeat your modified move.
Layer 4 (0) -- knowing that the opponent could overthink your engagement, you just do the simplest move anyway, rendering the modified counter ineffective.
Well-written enemies like Thrawn excel at layers 3 and 4, but yeah, it's hard to keep all this in mind. You not only have to write who does what and why, but you also have to write how everyone thinks their opposition will act next, and how _that_ affects their actions.
This.
The intro of these videos keeps getting more exotic each day...
No, thank you for the video, I never thought about the Venator still being operated in 5 or so BBY
Don't forget that Jedi fallen order and survivor are canon. Venators were going to scrapyards just 5 years after clone wars
@@kahtyman7293. No video game is alpha canon, they invent arbitrary rules in order to facilitate gameplay that don't matter or don't apply to alpha Canon which is any live action filmed material, or things mentioned in live action such as the emperor being referred to in a new hope. You didn't have to see him for him to be Canon because he was mentioned by tarkin.
The clone Wars were Canon because they were mentioned by Kenobi, before we saw either one of these things.
Just by nature a game is played by very many different people and shooting and killing different people and objects in the game is enough to show with common sense that it simply cannot be Canon.
@@kahtyman7293 I think there are no contradictions between scrapping some and keeping some Venator for the Imperial Navy, In a the bad batch they still renovate some Venator
It was nice seeing hints of the...transitional phase in regards to the Imperial Navy. The gradual implementation of the Tarkin Doctrine where the threat of force became a more potent (and cost effective) weapon than force itself. As you mentioned, with no real near peers to fight and the focus more on holding territory and subjugating fixed worlds, the ISD is pound for pound the perfect tool for the job. The "When all you have is a hammer" approach going a long way to quelling resistance and insurgency without firing a shot. Or enacting punitive reprisals against those foolish enough to challenge the Empire's might. So as the Outer Rim sieges wound down, the Venator would gradually be phased out. The introduction of the ISD marking the true final sign that the Republic of old was gone and the Empire now stood in its place.
Great video! For escorts I go with some Imperial Light Cruisers too, which you do see in Imperial Fleets in 'Rebels' . As for the Bismarck, well after the successful torpedo strike by the Swordfish on the rudder, allowing for Royal Navy battleships and cruisers to catch up, the 16-inch guns of HMS Rodney put really big holes into the German battleship, craters which still can be seen in the wreck, Rodney even might have pulled off a torpedo hit as the 1920s BB at an underwater battery which did fire off a shot at the Bismarck.
I have to admit, one ISD with 2 venators scort combo makes a lot of sense. Enough fighter patrols to keep the rebels away, enough firepower to pacify several star systems at once. But thankfully for the rebels, the imperial navy was too busy back stabbing each other and being consumed by sith A-hole energy and doctrine.
I like the idea of having an Allegiance-class Battlecruiser flanked by two Venators. Seems like a good combo.
Give them like 16 Lancers and 20 Assassin corvettes (Imperial CR-90s) for escorts and an Interdictor in the back and it'll be perfect.
I think the biggest problem was that the Empire never successfully created a true successor for the role the Venator fit. There were a bunch of different vessel types that captured parts of the roles the Venator filled but they never quite recreated the mix of strength of the Venator. If the Empire had been able to make a Venator-equivalent that worked with the TIEs and produced them in acceptable quantities to allow for them to be the primary escorts then the rebellion would have been in trouble. Imagine a Venator successor that had half the primary armament but a very good point defense setup combined with a hanger or multiple hangers that had twice or three times the capacity of the ISD combined with the dedicated control facilities similar to the Venator. The amount of both point defense and fighter cover it would bring to a formation would have been staggering and made small battlegroups very well defended against the tactics the Rebels preferred.
Yeah the quasar class carrier was always underwhelming
The problem is they didn't have enough pilots to go around.
Venator successor would be the same size of Venator, it would compete directly with ISD.
If carriers like Venator was so good then Rep planners/ ship designers wouldn;'t come up with Victory then ISD. The shift toward battleship doctrine signify some thing wrong with Venator that they wanted to switch things around.
Honestly, the most suspect aspect of Venator is its supposedly capacity of 300-400 starfighters, we never saw they deploy anywhere near that number and comtemporary like Providence only carry 240 drone starfighters. It is likely most Venators carry way less, maybe around 150 range which make all the comromises on the ship moot, they don't need all the structural weaknesses to deploy that.
72 starfighters on ISD is not a small number, practically equal or even higher Star Cruisers of the Rebellion.
It is just that they kept using TIE-LN. THe program to switch to TIE- Interceptors was broken due to Endor...
If Interceptors fully replaced TIE-LN, the Empire would negate almost all the Rebel starfighter advantage
@@huntermad5668 this, the biggest problem with the ties is the empire kept the TIE-LN in service for 20 years before making a real attempt to replace them en mass, the TIE-LN was designed to fight unshielded predictable short range droid fighters, not shielded piloted starfighters with very strong firepower and hyperdrives
Holy Crabs love how you don't take yourself so seriously - keep up the good work
Love waking up to some Generation Tech. It’s like breakfast cartoons as a kid, but for adults.
The Rogue Squadron books showed how weak the USD were. 80 concussion missile launchers were enough to get a USD to surrender.
Cheap missile launchers bought en masse slapped to thrusters. 3 salvos, like, 20 seconds of fire, was a threat enough to scare a ISD captain
The Venators would have made an excellent support vessels while the ISDs act as a capital ship flanking with the Arquitens light cruiser
Using a capital to escort another capital...is not ideal.
Manpower and resources to do that is too much for even the Empire
@@huntermad5668 more as a auxiliary power multiplier ship , and anyways cruisers destroyers and escort carriers(light) always escort larger capital ships like Battleships and super carriers
@@sumukhvmrsat6347
Nope, Venator is too large and too manpower/resources intensive to be an escort.
The age of massive starfighter wings was over already. Without sufficient number of starfighters then Venators become totally useless but Imperial Navy had enough troubles to fill up their ISD already
@@huntermad5668 @huntermad5668
Venator is at a typical Heavy cruiser size and Heavy cruisers are the Workhorse of any navy and For a ISD it can be a support brother like ship? I don't remember the one word but it's very much covering the negative aspects or a Venator ,interdependent? As it was already planned from the beginning to be a Duo of Victory star destroyer and Venator star destroyer as a Pair and not alone but as the Victor intiative project took long and Venators were already ready that happens as it did
imagine 2 ISDs team , then imagine 1 ISD and 5 Venators team , They have same amount of crew not considering stormtroopers on ISD which amount to another 1 and half venators crew
Venator isn't Crew or resource intensive at all , it's just a armoured Transport with Teeth with only 8k crew , ISD has 37k crew only and a 2k stormtroopers that is called resource intensive
Venators are Power multipliers and flexible , Imagine a Venator full of Tie defenders , I'd rather have that than 1 or 2 ISDs
Age of Starfighters or Massive starfighter wings didn't go anywhere , it was Starfighters or even a single starfighter at instances that won the Rebellion in the Galactic Civil war and it's ignorance is what broke the Empire and its acknowledgement as one of many Vital Units is what makes Grand Admiral Thrawn so deadly
A single Venator can Control and entire system with its massive starfighter complement and can fight at Many fronts at once by spreading its Starfighters and even in Multiple starsystems too as Starfighters have Hyperdrive and Send Forward reconnaissance, scout , patrol , police and entire system or 2 , and conduct hit run attacks Venator losing its Starfighters is very low resource loss
And it can carry Corvettes too on the long runway which can act as escorts or sub capital ships when needed
ISD is a single unit and it's Starfighters are chained to it , yes it is sledge hammer in weaponry but that's it , ee can't just base delta zero everything ya know
Venators didn't became useless at anypoint , Even in Legends during the second Galactic Civil war Admiral Natassi Daala (who controlled Coruacant till it's taking by Rebellion and also Escaped from the surface in a focking Super star destroyer ) had 1 or more Venators in her Maw irregular fleet and their sudden appearance had changed the tide of a losing battle and Endurance class fleet carrier albeit at 3\5th venators fighter compliment were the Flagships of Many New republic fleets
ISD was a powerful ship but Starfighters ruled always
Man, that formation is so sick looking that only needed anti starfighters screeners.
In a nutt shell. The Empire moved towards a more "Standardisation" model. Which meant they could produce mass quantities of the same ship, saving in cost on parts and servicing. Instead of having hundreds of different model ships, each requring variants of different parts.
The idea of mass in numbers over quality. Not saying that the ISD werent quality but you get my point.
The Emperor was all about projecting power. And having LARGE numbers of devastating ships was his forte. But all the same, all uniform. That was evident in Rise of Skywalker.
Star wars needs to bring back, juts one last venator, for the fans sake. The last venator being used would be so sick
Or escorts were put in establishment, but never built due to Death Star cost overruns. Kinda how Yamato and Musashi killed all other IJN production for few years.
Interesting I didn’t know that. Also I’m sure Japan had shortages in raw materials right? When were those battleships laid down?
@@GenerationTech 1937.
@@GenerationTech Yes, Japan had major shortages and the resources needed here basically meant a stop on not only more carriers, but also more heavy cruisers (incl. Japanese equivalent of Alaska class).
That was a great combo, but I'm still partial to many of the combinations shown in the TIE fighter and Rebellion games from the 90s- Carracks, Dreadnoughts, Nebulon-B2s, Escort Carriers, Loronar Strike Cruisers, Victory IIs, Interdictors, and a few others from the RPG sourcebooks like the Vindicator, Gladiator, the Lancer, the Tartan even. Then again, I also love the XG-1 Star Wing Assault Gunboat and the GAT-12G Skipray Blastboat, as well as the Assault Transport, so I may be a bit biased by my own nostalgia for the games of my youth. I can argue that they all have their place, more ship types just makes sense for a galaxy as vast and as old as Star Wars.
I was going to say the reason why they didnt have Venator class around is because of maintenance costs. Those things cost a pretty penny to keep functional and well, the Empire was pretty cheap when it came down to it. A bunch of bean counters that werent interested in spending money on outdated ships that represented the Jedi/Republic.
If you want to completely occupy a system, just use an acclimator and a venator, both of which did their jobs better than the ISD
Maybe more than one Acclamator, but you're absolutely right. Ironically, the fleet composition of the Republic was far more suited to the responsibilities of the Empire (keeping order and stability actoss territory by patrolling, escorting trade lanes, and stamping out rebels, pirates and criminal elements) than the ISDs and other similar such ships. The Venator could just sit in the most secure area ot can find and coordinate the efforts of its various smallcraft formations, which, all having hyperdrives, could be sent out in the exact numbers needed to deal with a bunch of problems at once. Republuc fighters would also have a mych hetter chance at not only pursuing the types of snub-fighters that the Rebels loved so much, but they could guve and rake more hits compared to TIEs as well, given that they were designed for a war in which they had higher-quality pilots but the enemy greatly ournumbered them. Speaking of pilots, yhe Empire sure spent a lot of time and resources to teain great pilots who would just die in a single shot in their TIEs.
As for the Acclamators, they could he used very well for several roles. First and foremost, a rapid response warship. The Acclamator has an obscenely powerful Class 0.6 hyperdrive, making it faster in hyperspace than most ships in history NOT named the Millennium Falcon. This would allow Acclamators to serve as a relatively cheap and very reliable tool of enforcement and reinforcement for local forces that are being overwhelmed or ambushed. The Acclamator also has a minimal crew requirement of just 500 people, meaning that assuming that proper logisticsl support exists for the class, it can be deployed in great numbers and cover far more territory than other ships of its tonnage range. It can also setve as a bery effective transport and breakthrough vessel, be that in an invasion, relief, or occupation role. The Acclamator was originally designed as a planetary assault ship for the Clone Army, so it can take a beating before its cargo would be endangered. This, in addition to its OP hyperdrive makes it the ideal ship to quickly send supplies or tropps and vehicles to an area to help the odds of success fir local Imperial forces. Depending on the amount of intel and prep time you have, you could even modify some Acclamatirs with a bumch of extendable airlock-like hardpoints to magnetize snaller support vessels like Gozantis, Assassin corvettes, Lancers &/or Arquitens to their hull, allowing said support ships to ve caroed across hyperspace by the much faster Acclanator and quickly detach into a balanced task force.
i can listen this guy all day
The best use we ever see of an ISD is in Rogue One. Showing up at point blank, guns blazing and tearing through anything smaller than it establishing space superiority in seconds. We also see that if caught off guard, a couple ion bombs and a crippled corvette are all that are needed to cripple one ISD in turn.
To be fair, other warships would also cover the ISD's lack of space for starfighters. From Escort Carriers to Acclamators and Victory-2s, other warships could carry starfighters just as well as an ISD. A single Acclamator can carry 80 LAAT gunships, just imagine how many TIEs it can carry. The Storm Commandos even got their own version of an Escort Carrier that was smaller and more versatile than an ISD, but it can also throw TIEs at you like one.
Great video GenTech. Agreed, loved seeing the Imperial Venators.
I always admired the engineering and machines of the Empire ⚙️🖤
Man that formation of that fleet using venators as the pawns and imperial 1 as king but was it serving as fleet command meeting star destroyer?
"alot of people say that, the size of your turbolaser matters alot. but ive always thought its more about, how you USE your turbolaser".💀
Venator was peak design and no one can change me otherwise ❤
I watched this entire video did not miss any of the awesome content. Did Allan just sneeze?
The Imperial Star Destroyer is the embodiment of the concept of a "used future" of a military ship built by a civilization in decline.
Those present could not build at the same level as those whom came before them.
Go back to SWTOR, the military ships then were more flexible, had long range weapons, and the starfighters had energy shields. (The reason the Tie Fighter did not have shields was the Empire was to cheap to have them added.)
To make up for this, the Imperial Star Destroyer had more armor put on to it.
Keep in mind how much graft was happening during the last days of the Republic and the days of the Empire. The ruling body wanted products produced by the cheapest bidder.
Absolutely love the new setting!
My friend, i love your channel. Watch it all the time. Need to say something about something you said in this video. You mentioned the Death Star and how Tarkin basically ignored any threats. Well Tarkin was not worried about anything being a danger to the Death Star, not just because of his hubris. He had been in on the design of this project after he stole the credit from Director Krennick. No one could have figured out until it was in battle and the Imperials analyzed the attack runs from the cursed rebels. Up until that point Tarkin and Admiral Motti were very confident in the battle station. When Tarkin was told of the danger he thought they had little chance of hitting that small port before he blew up the rebel stronghold on yavin. Had i been Tarkin, i would have shot the gas planet and let that blast destroy yavin.
Now onto the ISDs. Those capital ships were designed to take on multiple combatants at a time. They were pretty indestructable. Yet they showed that differently in the movies so the damn cursed rebels could win. One HUGE example, there us no way possible that the SSD Executor after losing its main bridge would have just keeled over and crashed into the Death Star. The secondary Battle Bridge, if you will, would have taken over immediately and would have moved the ship away from the battle. Some people are saying
" well the engines were being attacked and were in the process of blowing up" WRONG. The Executors engines were also protected by a force shield, both particle and ray shield. Yes there were areas that could have been attacked near the engines, but the ship could have popped into Hyperspace, with a captain calling a general retreat. The shield generators up on the bridge wings, totally stupid. Too easy for any ship or asteroid to crash into. They were heavily protected by multiple shields of their own. That damn crash would have just skirted across the shield leaving the bridge fully protected.
Now one of my biggest pet peeves. Hans Imperial Llamda class shuttle. Its crew compliment was around 25 plus pilots. So where did allnof those other damn rebels come from on the planet???????????????? If the Imperials had to lower the shields for han to take the shuttle down to Endor, then where did the extra rebels come from? A legion of stormtroopers totals 14,000 troops including troopers, officers, logistics, medics, etc, etc. So how in the hell did 25 rebels and a bunch of damn teddy bears succeed in blowing up the shield generator. Not possible. George Lucas you screŵd up the writing here.
A few years ago (it might even be half a decade holy shit) Eck put out a video about his ideal Imp navy using only what the Imp navy had available. The Venator was acting as a support to an ISD and the rest of the fleet being ships meant to be picket vessels or essentially gun ships. The Venator unlike other imperial carriers could actually keep up with an ISD, and the ISD if not having to basically do everything could be better dedicated to being a pure weapons platform. It basically fixes the flaw with imperial doctrine, it’s much cheaper than fielding a bunch of ISDs in a fleet and it’s much more flexible while also being able to fulfill peacetime duties of anti-piracy. It’s basically everything the Imp navy could be.
The samurai has entered the room.
and he still missed the point of everyone prior to WW2 thinking WW1 was going to be another Battleship vs Battleship war, hence why they made so many, not realizing were History was heading towards
Just a reminder, the ISD I carried 72 fighter craft. That’s about on par with a Nimitz class super carrier. I truly think it’s a case of captains not knowing how to utilize their fighter wings and the pilots not working together to fight an enemy.
But having a Venatir in support would not hurt
@@paulrasmussen8953 oh absolutely not. I love the Venator, even more than the ISD. But if you take a standard load out, take out the twelve bombers, you still have sixty fighters against usually four to eight bombers. No amount of plot armor should be able to stop that.
It would be really cool to see if in Ahsoka season 2 or the Dave Filoni stand-alone movie Thrawn manages to find a few Venators and fix them up to compliment his fleet. The Imperial Remnant is already scrounging off whatever scraps they can find as it is, so Thrawn could turn all the barely flying junk heaps the remnant has into a formidable tactical force.
0:38 lmao image if they got rouge oned by the star destroyer right there
Yeah that’s exactly what I think everytime they setup a shot like that 😝
I think that A New Hope said it best when they were talking about the attack on the Death Star. "The Empire doesn’t consider one-man fighters to be much of a threat."
Your videos are always such a breath of fresh air!
Wish we got to see the raider corvette in the Star Wars cartoons. That became my new favorite ship
Fun Fact, those shore emplacements you mentioned used smaller guns from retired or left overs from upgraded battleships, the modern battleships had the larger guns.
Love the intro for this video man
The Venator make sense as escort vessels for the ISD. It's almost like the vessels were meant to work together before Tarkin had his "bright" idea for battle doctrine.
Just imagine how potent these fleets could have been if they'd been left mixed as they were. The only additions needed would have been some Acclimator groups as, essentially, larger heavy bombers/mobile bases. Something akin to the Alkesh in use.
5:00 What's more likely is cost cutting and power management... City sized blasters are not power efficent and the ship in battle is meant to constantly be shooting them so it likely can't shot point defense blasters.
The final episode of Bad Batch and the 2nd episode of Tales of the Empire represent a transition period for the Imperial Navy shifting from Republic to Imperial naval doctrine. New Imperial Star Destroyers escorted by Venator Star Destroyers. V-Wings were in use till they got the TIE production lines fully started.
2:20 'just imagine what these massive artillery towers could do' *recalls episode shown on screen where multiple blasts land a foot away from Kanan and don't even faze him*
The reason why this in transition period of the empire, sees their fleet be so effective and badass is because it is the fleet that the republic was supposed to have by the end of the clone wars. An all arms fleet of carriers: such as venators, backed up by missile boats: victory class destroyers, battleships in the imperator renamed imperial class destroyers and backed up by effective fleet of multiple escorts and fighters. Allowing it to patrol and protect all of its territory and meet any threat that might crop off and eventually the threat of the rebel alliance if it had been kept as it was for entirety of the empire's reign.
Hey Allen at 4:30 you say its not about the size of your turbo laser, but more how you use it. Trust me guys, bigger or smaller your...closest ally...has a preferred or ideal size for turbo laser compatibility. Additionally, you never want to hear about your rival having a larger turbo laser than you, regardless of what your ally's preferences are.
7:40 - You're probably already aware of this but the Malevolence and it's whole saga was directly inspired by the Bismarck, as confirmed by Filoni himself. The Separatists even had a sister ship to the Malevolence they avoided using in direct action after the Malevolence was destroyed, just like the Tirpitz.
And the key element in destroying both the Bismarck and the Malevolence was torpedo bombers or whatnot. I even think that locking the ship's steering smack into that moon references how the Bismarck's damaged steering was crucial to landing the hits that took it down.
11:30 And technological advances in blaster technology and shield systems eventually caused those CW-era tech to become obsolete.
Like Cold-war era weaponry used in modern times.
3:47 Limitation in resources, the vast size of space for patrol or field of operations for capitol ships, chance of combat, and an officer’s own arrogance are all elements that are factored into deciding if an escort is necessary or not.
You were wrong
He was wrong
Generation tech was wrong
@@insomniacelite6753 you're wrong
@@mr.boomguy I was wrong
But I’m a right about me being wrong so I’m not completely wrong
What I think happened is the mixed fleet arrangement was indeed a thing for a while, however Escorts perform the job of taking fire away from the Primary Capital ship, meaning they were destroyed first during the engagement leaving only the Star Destroyer and because of Tarkin, they were simply never replaced.
You actually brought up a flaw in the Star Destroyers without realizing it…
It was designed for broadside barrages. In a straight up fight, that would be an absolutely tragic idea. Look at the Battle of Jutland or literally any other naval battle. Broadsides just give your enemy more to shoot at. Ideally, the firepower of a SD would be forward facing to utilize the geometry of the hull, turning it into a space Dorito of death, while minimizing its target profile. Defensive weapons would line the midline of the hull and stretch the length of it, and center around the control tower (the IJN Yamato has a great example of this since the gun emplacements are very distinct from the super structure).
All capital ships sunk at Jutland were lightly armored battlecruisers. Not a single battleship was sunk.
Given what Yamato did to USS Gambier Bay and Johnston, that’s a great example indeed.
@@metaknight115 battlecruisers were never capital ships. Double check your losses as well.
@@lucashenry6281 Yes they were. They were battleships with thinner armor to gain a higher speed. They were as large as battleships and carried battleship caliber guns.
The UK lost three battlecruisers
-HMS Invincible
-HMS Queen Mary
-HMS Indefatigable
While the Germans lost one-SMS Lutzow
The Germans also lost one elderly pre dreadnought, but it was far from a capital ship by that point due to how outdated it was and it was sunk by destroyer torpedoes.
@@metaknight115 The German battlecruisers (SMS _Lutzow_ included) went the opposite route as the British ones - smaller and lighter guns, but battleship-grade armor. That's why _Invincible, Queen Mary,_ & _Indefatigable_ got wiped out in seconds each with thousands of casualties between them, but _Lutzow_ lasted several hours before the crew had to abandon ship. (Also, _Derfflinger_ and _Seydlitz_ took nearly as much damage, but both made it back to port.)
@@metaknight115 "given what Yamato did to USS Gambier Bay and Johnston" you mean "miss a lot and get dunked on?"
5 Venator fleets for every 1 star destroyer. Venator starfighters for patrolling and anti-capital ship bombing runs, and star destroyers for orbital bombardment.
Holy crap. You were talking about the strengths and weaknesses of the ISD and Venator, and I realized that the republic and empire were literally fighting each other’s preferred battles.
I mean, the republic was facing the CIS, which had some short range fighters but spent most of their time fighting it out with capital ships. They also spent a lot of time fighting large scale land battles with lots of troops. What is the ISDs strengths? Strong armour, weapons designed to take out large ships, large troop capacities for planetary attack, at the cost of small fighter compliments and anti-fighter weapons.
On the other hand, what did the empire face? Limited numbers of capital ships, but large fighter forces with long range advanced fighters and bombers that conducted most of their attacks, with small scale land actions against small rebel cells. What do the ventators excel at? Carrier duties with large numbers of small ships, point defence weapons and small troop contingents good for boarding actions or small planetary skirmishes.
I get having both together is amazing, but if you gave the republic the ISD and the empire the Venator, both navies suddenly seem a lot more comfortable with the battles they face.
What would be cool is if thawn uses both venators and star destroyers the next time we see him
What's impressive is the Empire had the Executor and at least three Imperial II-class star destroyers present at Hoth. They were not able to break the shields of the Rebel base on Hoth.
"Do refrain from intercepting an enemy whose banners are in perfect order, do refrain from attacking an army drawn up in calm and confident array: -this is the art of studying circumstances. It is a military law not to advance uphill against the enemy, nor to oppose him when he comes downhill."
-Sun Tzu.
Personally, I'd like the ultimate Combo, Combine the size of the Imp Star destroyer with the Venator, Then you can tack on more guns but keep that nice fighter compliment. Then make the victory class with those side missile bays the same size as an Imp SD and then combine it with the landing gear and storage as a acclamator and bada bing you get a fleet of heavy assault aircraft carriers with Victory class battleships that also work as dropships for the army.
The Empire in SW is similar in some ways to 40K, send in millions of men in massive ground campaigns. But then you look at the space fleets and even the Imperium in 40K uses mainly mixed fleets(you'd think 40K would be the setting guilty of using only the BIGGEST ships).
If you look at at the design in the cutaway view, and keep in mind that the planets of the Mid and Outer Rim are sparsely populated (based on what we see in the films and TV shows), you begin to see the Imperial Star Destroyer wasn't intended to be a capital combat ship. Its a mobile repression unit. From that point of view a wing TIE fighters, a couple of AT-ATs and 9,700 Stormtroopers would probably be enough to cow a population. If not, then I imagine the Star Destroyer pointing its broadside at your population centers would end your defiance pretty quickly, even if your cities are ray shielded.
That thumbnail looks like a fleet of sharks
In last jedi . There were fighters the captain didn't launch quickly enough and thier were 3 batlecruiser escorts , she should have been completely protected,
And even with the delay only one ship got into fireing position
Nothing in that movie made any sense. From the drop down bombers to when They called Kylo Ren back because they 'couldn't support' him in his fighter, when TIEs are just disposable... and Hux couldn't care less about him.
@@goldfishprime Dont take it like i am trying to defended that dumpster of a fire that is the sequel trilogy, but i though that the New order didnt have the manpower like Empire had (like literally their army were kidnapped kids if i am not mistaken) so they gave their ties shields to better protect them... So in my pov Hux called of the attack because their fighters and pilots werent as disposable as were the empire fighters and pilots and also Kylo was literally a "high ranking" guy... he didnt really have a rank but he was the right hand of the man in charge... much like Vader. However i wouldnt even be surprised if i just made most of that up because the writers and directors didnt really seem to have many braincells writing those 3 movies
I did an old video where I basically talk about the dynamics of the first order officer corp. it’s really interesting you have like the old guard who survived the galactic civil war, real blood and guts type of line officers. And then you have hux’s generation fanatic and obsessed with statistics. There’s a lot of tension between these two groups and the captain of the mandatory siege dreadnaught wanted to deploy fighters but hux didn’t follow proper procedure basically.
th-cam.com/video/SALiFoRZZng/w-d-xo.htmlsi=v-WnZhrpMT6FyBWg
@@GenerationTech yes I think I remember it ( thanks) I do remember reading in the last jedi visual dictionary,
The captain of the mandator was an imperial navy officer, and was unimpressed and always a bit surprised at how young is officers and crew were ,
The first order had a ( sub adult) corp , like Hitler youth, or pol pot , ideologically pure . .
I am interested in the elder hux he seemed more competent then his son . I remember his man cardinal. Good character
@@GenerationTech 5 years sgo . God time flies.
I agree wholeheartedly that whilst the ISD, is impressive, it’s completely unnecessary for the typical sort of missions such ships are designed for, whereas the empire should’ve focused on smaller but more numerous ships rather than the one large ship managing an entire system
In my opinion, the perfect Imperial fleet would be an ISD, Secutor duo, recreating that Venator, Victory dynamic, Victory Star Destroyers supported by Gladiators, and a mix of Ton Falk and Raider Corvettes providing defense against fighters.
25,000 is legends number.
It's over anakin we have the high ground ! (said the tactical droid)
More about the Empire went into the big gun approach and that is the system that they adopted as technically speaking no one in the Extended Universe had true access to warships only civilian ships with guns installed and the original Rebel fleet was composed of civilian ships, outdated Old Republic and CIS warships they salvage along what they stole from the Empire. Eventually they gained actual warships from an ally that had the manufacturing capabilities to make actual warships. Now in Cannon, they are introducing planetary defense warships that I find outrageous that the Empire would allow those planets have them or produce them.
5:07 The design is entirely Sith-inspired with the triangle shape and the emphasis on the attack with little consideration for defense of any lives in pursuit of the ship’s crew’s goals.
This is why the Secutor is my favorite Star Destroyer.
In the case of Thrawn's escort of Venators, I figure at the time he was probably working with the left overs. The Empire's bigotry is well known, and Thrawn was often given the short end of the stick. Those were probably among the last Venators still flying. BUT, knowing Thrawn, he probably said "I'll take them." He undoubtedly saw the utility in having them as part of his fleet. But you have narrow minded politicians like Tarkin in charge, so they attribute any successes by the likes of Thrawn to statistical anomalies, and go ahead with their poor ideas.
We have to remember that much of Star Wars is written by people who have not studied military doctrine and tactics. The rule of cool wins over realism. That being said, there is precedent for such boneheaded decisions and policies in real life. No military is perfect. The Empire is just more imperfect.
before i saw these 2 shows, bad batch and tales of the empire, i had no idea the ISD was so much larger than the Venator.
The “Cruiser” that can dock on the bottom is more of a corvette. Cruisers are still capital ships and were the top tier naval vessels before the HMS Dreadnaut
If Thrawn joined in the 1st year of the Imperial era, he would have likely taken a bunch of these Venators to compliment his fight
"You've never heard of the Millennium Falcon? It's the ship that made the Kessel Run in less than twelve parsecs. I've outrun Imperial starships, not the local bulk-cruisers, mind you. I'm talking about the big Corellian ships now." - Han Solo.
Yes, the Empire had smaller class ships.
The Venator was made to fight a war, the Empire Class was made to not fight at all, they were supposed to look scary on paper, so they had ridiculous amounts of ridiculously oversized guns. They were meant to scare the regular Joes of the galaxy into submission, which also worked fairly well. And in certain situations they also were competent, as the ridiculously oversized guns weren't made of cardboard after all.
There is also the question if a captain from the Imperial Academy could even use a Venator the right way. Given, Imperial doctrine was simple, easy to understand and relied on following orders. A captain of a Venator doesn't have the time to wait for orders, because an enemy might close in before they arrive and a flotilla or fleet commander might use a Venator in his fleet like he would a Star Destroyer.
This becomes even more a problem in the time before the Rebellion became more effective, With no enemy to fight, Venator's might have been give to captains fresh from the academy, went on patrol duty, intercepting smugglers and hunting pirates. Duties the Venator doesn't use much of it's fighter complement for. When the Rebellion became more effective, the pilots might have lost their edge if the Venator's even had their full fighter complement any more and it hadn't been cut down because they weren't using them and/or for budget reasons.
So, I don't know the more recent stuff as well, but as for the original trilogy, one big reason that you wouldn't see much in the way of escort ships is that, by and large, during the original trilogy, the Rebellion was greatly underestimated, and, frankly, in two of those movies, they really weren't that great of a threat on a strategic level - in New Hope and Empire Strikes Back, the Rebels are implied to have one base - Yavin IV in New Hope and Hoth in Empire Strikes Back...and in both movies, the Empire is moving in for the kill.
In a New Hope, the Rebellion can only muster, what, about 18 fighters or so to strike at the Death Star? And that's their main base, possibly their only base! They don't have much...but they have good intel and take advantage of the Empire's strategic idiocy in sending the Death Star in alone, only launching a handful of fighters in defense, and allowing an ace pilot's pride to get in the way of a good response to their attack. (Yes, said ace pilot is the second in command of the empire and can choke you to death with a thought, but that doesn't make Vader's choice to have his wingmen just fly in parade formation behind him while he shoots the enemy down one by one a good call.)
By Empire Strikes Back, there's some indication that the Rebellion rallied for a bit after the destruction of the Death Star - the destruction of a highly regarded civilization like Alderaan coupled with the Rebellion's victory against the Death Star would produce such an effect, for sure - but by the start of the movie, the Rebellion is again beleaguered, having been hunted down to the point where inhospitable planets like Hoth that are so cold that it's difficult to make equipment work are the only option for bases, with much of their fleet hiding in interstellar space (possibly intergalactic space, though the shot of a galaxy with stars all around it at the end of Empire is deeply weird from an astronomy perspective, maybe something along the lines of hiding in one of the Magellanic Clouds that are "close" to the Milky Way?) Point being they're again on the back foot, and not really a threat.
Thus, by the time we get the one big fleet battle of the trilogy - the Battle of Endor - the Empire has been dealing with what's largely an insurgent threat, as opposed to an enemy that presents a navy with similar capabilities, for quite some time. Given the Empire's preference for terror tactics over sound military doctrine, it's entirely reasonable that they might just not bother with the escorts - the escorts counter a threat that doesn't exist and imply that the mobile military base that an ISD functionally operates as might actually be vulnerable, an implication that reduces the fear factor for the general public.
Most of the old extended universe books take place after the Battle of Endor, at a point when the Rebellion has killed the Emperor, declared the foundation of a New Republic, and is making increasing territorial gains (which rather quickly include the conquest of Coruscant, the galactic capital), while the Empire shrinks in power and grows increasingly fractured with various Imperial admirals striking out on their own as warlords over their own little territories. By this point the Empire is very quickly learning to take the Rebellion/New Republic as an increasingly dire threat, and is also going through a rather brutal process that removes the overconfident and stupid commanders from the ranks. (If the Rebellion doesn't get them, Isard or a neighbouring ex-Imperial warlord will). Those who mount a major threat quickly learn to rely less on the raw might of an overwhelmingly powerful Empire and more on sound strategic doctrine - this includes things like incorporating ships like the Lancer class frigate with it's strong focus on countering the starfighter strikes that cause the ISD so many problems into their maneuvers. Relatively few of these specialist ships exist as the Imperial Shipyards can only churn out so many (and eventually the primary shipyard at Kuat is incorporated into the New Republic, vastly reducing the Empire's capacity for producing new ships).
(Of course, if you're going by the Disney canon, I have very little understanding of what happens after the Battle of Endor. How you get the Empire defeated, a New Republic established, and then the First Order being capable of secretly building something as absurdly expensive as Starkiller Base while only earning the ire of a splinter faction ...I...even the first movie didn't make much sense, Last Jedi jumped the shark completely and then somehow Palpatine returned and fans of the old star wars canon were so confused. Because seriously, "Somehow Palpatine Returned" was done in the Dark Empire comic books, which were honestly more coherent than Disney's mess despite being hilariously over the top in their own right. ...Honestly, I'm fine with Disney playing around in the early Empire days, but I kinda wish they'd just left the post Endor books in play rather than doing this...nonsense.)
I'd say what the Imperial Navy should have done was create a Venator-style carrier designed with TIE fighters in mind. I can imagine Thrawn seeing the advantages of such an escort ship, especially one equipped with TIE Defenders.
Essentially, the problem with ISD is mostly its TIE-LN complement overstay their welcome.
If the plan to replace them with TIE-interceptors finished then the Rebellion would lose all their edges in starfighters.
ISD with Interceptors are totally capable of crushing any Rebel capital they faced except things like Home one with their Red/Rogue squadron
I hope you made an analysis of what would happen of an fleet of star destroyers face years later an hypethtical forgotten cis fleet with an invisible model of command ship and few droid frigates and tie fighters would sworm against rei fighters hyena bombers and vulture droids if the modern empire with their flaws could outclass a fleet of droids and an super tactical droid
Chan syndulla actually uses a fleet of old vulture droids and a bunch of space mines to take out emperor palatine’s star destroyer. Really an epic assassination attempt. Even with that old tech swarming works.
great entrance!
The ideal imperial fleet would contain three venators for every ISD. The ISD handles ship to ship bonbardment while the venator uses its fighters as pickets. Sprinkle in a few victory crusiers and boom
Getting tired of either TH-cam or Allen deleting my comment proving him wrong.
Also, I'd hardly call this the peak of the Empire's naval power. I can imagine a couple of Mon Calamari Cruisers, some old fighters, and some Corellian Corvettes serving as anti-fighter screens would devastate an ISD and its Venator escorts. The Mon Cal cruisers would gang up on the lone ISD, the Corellian Corvettes would mow down the masses of fighters unleashed by the Venators, and some old-ass Y-Wings can blow holes on those Venators while the lone ISD is sunk by the Mon Calamari Cruisers.
Now if you have three ISDs, that's a different picture. They'd be able to match the Mon Cal Cruisers in battle, maybe even destroy them. Two of the ISDs would engage the Mon Calamari Cruisers and hold them off, their thick armor and shields making it hard for the Y-Wings and other fighters to even damage them, while the third ISD annihilates the Corellian Corvettes with its superior firepower and tractor beam. Once that's done and the corvettes are gone, they'll release their TIE Fighters to mop up the enemy fighters while the TIE Bombers and the ISD that was fighting the corvettes would turn to join its brethren in destroying the Mon Calamari cruisers.
Once again, Alan, there is a method to the Emperor's madness. Question his designs if you must, but they worked. There is a reason why the Rebellion spent most of the Galactic Civil War in hiding, and why elite groups like Rogue Squadron would only operate for a few minutes before leaving, since they know that if they stay too long, ISD reinforcements will appear in droves, and they'll have to retreat. Most of the ISDs were destroyed in the civil war between Imperial factions when they had a disagreement of opinion on who should succeed Palpatine; one of the New Republic historians even estimated that if the Grand Admirals agreed on joining forces against the Alliance after Endor, the New Republic would've been strangled in its crib before it was born.
I don´t really think they would. If you keep the Plotarmor aside the Empire would stomp the attacking Rebels
I’m actually curious about how the Imperial navy doctrine would be during the transition period between the Republic and Imperial navy like the fleet composition and stuff like that
As I always said, the Imperator, the Venator, and the Tector were supposed to act together, with the Venator providing the fighter cover and first strike, the Tector the HEAVY firepower, and the Imperator the coordination plus a reasonable mix of fighters, firepower, and troops capable of solo missions.
And I'm pretty sure the reason the Venator was taken out was Palpatine's need to make everything his and petty hatred for the Jedi... Thus the Imperator being renamed Imperial Star Destroyer and the Venator, AKA Jedi Attack Cruiser, being phased out.