Logistics... Not X-wings: Death of the Star Destroyer
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ต.ค. 2023
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In 4ABY the imperial logistics network was already under immense pressure, but then Emperor Palpatine died. This would set off a chain reaction that would make that bought the Imperial Navy onto its knees.
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No
Nowadays, I prefer the smaller ships in The Mandalorian. It reminds me of the Clone Wars and allows for a smaller budget to roleplay. I should have been more appreciative of the smaller ship LEGO sets over the decades, instead of lusting for that unobtainable 12 foot Star Destroyer...
Sure thing.. an I'll be sure not to tell Vader an Palpy while I'm at it
Can you do more videos on the Arquitens Light cruiser like the “Savior of the empire” video. Just cause you seem to revisiting old videos with the outdated tactics video and all
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"Amateurs talk tactics. Professionals talk logistics." - Sun Tzu probably
You mean "High Admiral Sun Tzu".
Someone who knows what he's talking about.👌
Beat me to it! 👍
@@hanzo8120General* Sun Tzu
Who is Sun Tzu Probably though
"When your men get to eat three full meals, that's logistics,"
Not just eat 3 meals, but having clean water, warm showers and clothing, plenty of ammo, working vehicles, and sufficient medical supplies
@@warlynx5644 was making a rip on the old UPS comercials.
Logistics weren't a flaw in the ISD ,it was a design feature. Palpatine didn't want his admirals rebelling against him.
Palpatine/Sidious is said to be the strongest Sith of all time.
How strong and powerful can he be that he had to deceive the people in order to come to power?
Then put this people in fear and keep them in fear, manipulating the citizens in such a way that the population denounces each other?
Ultimately making military commanders dependent on logistics?
If he were truly the strongest Sith, then he would have been powerful enough to openly challenge all Jedis and the entire Republic and defeat them alone, as well as any future uprisings.
Its still a flaw. What kind of paranoid leader purposely hinders his own military force, a terrible leader that was doomed from the start.
Bro what are you raving about? To be strong enough to take on the entire Jedi order, Republic, and then crush all rebellion would require the strength of an omnipotent being. Sith and Jedi are individuals, very strong individuals but individuals nonetheless.
You take the most powerful force user of all time and put them against 1 million droids and eventually they will fall. Audio is being the most powerful sith of all time does not make him invincible against reality.
@@billjames9945
Jedi and Sith are Force users.
The question of who is the strongest Jedi or Sith is about who is the strongest in the Force or its use.
Sidious defeated the Jedi with intelligence, patience, cunning and foresight, but it had nothing to do with the Force. A non-Force user with the same abilities would have been able to do this. Especially because no one could have accused him of using the Dark Side or even being a Sith.
Not to mention a conviction.
A non-Force user would only have had to approach it differently for the Jedi to attack him and thus commit treason.
When Darth Bane dueled Darth Zannah in the final book of the Bane trilogy, it was a matter of who was the strongest in the Force, so that the stronger of the two would continue the Order of the Sith as master.
Bane made it very clear that this fight is not about cunning and patience, but about strength and skill in the Force.
No force user will ever have the ability to take on thousands of Jedi at once. Just because a non force user could use the same tactics doesn’t somehow mean that Sidious is lesser for using those same tactics.
And yes Darth Bane wanted the strongest force users as he was able to get. But his whole goal was deception because he realized the Jedi were too strong to take head on. So they needed to be more subtle about it. I’m just confused on why you think that somehow someone will have the ability to steam roll literally the entire galaxy and take power. If someone ever did, that would break Star Wars lore with how op they would be. This is nonsensical.
The Imperial Navy is quite analogous to the contemporary US Navy, if the US Navy ever decided to strap 16 inch guns on all their supercarriers, then proceeded to only produce MORE of said supercarriers, and then sending them off to do a frigate's job.
i don't think anyone even knows how to make those 16 inch guns anymore
lol@@GenerationTech
Yeah but then again to morph them into our reality of THIS Imperial franchise faction we'd also have to be enslaved, mostly, to our leader's will an then come up with both an absurdly big an powerful weapon capable of destroying a whole geographic area even more so then what we already got in a single shot. Not even a nuke can do THAT... Yet.. an ALSO luckily not everyone is fanatical to the government either also least not yet
@@GenerationTechthey do we have the blue prints and plans to those guns in archives. It's just that kind of weapon is no longer needed due to the way warfare is fought in modern times. The age of the big gun battleship/ dreadnought days were numbered once the first plane took to the skies. As much as it hsuts to say There are better and cheaper ways to get missions down now instead of sending massive war ship with big guns of the coast of a enemy shore when you can send a destroyer with missiles that have hundreds of miles of reach
@@Hugo123ll50blueprints is not all you need to know how to make something, you need to know the metals how to heat and forge them together how to rifle such a giant barrel along with the manufacturing infrastructure that’s needed and how to build that by itself it wouldn’t be impossible and he was probably making an overstatement but it would still take a lot more than just looking at some cross-sections
I read once that for every 1 soldier the USA has there are 11 people supporting them in logistics. A soldier wins a battle and logistics win a war.
I kinda giggled. When you were talking about Boeing, you showed flight lines of Airbus A380s.... Boeing's competitor.
My wife had to remind me that Star Wars wasn't real one time while I was watching your channel. That's how real you make it feel my dude. I'm a 34 year old tree climber. But I'm also a total nerd at heart. I love your content dude, thank you so much!!!👏🤌
It's your professional dream to mimic the ground part of the Battle of Endor, isn't it? Climb trees, chop wood, let the falling pieces destroy AT-STs. :D
This also adds to the Imperial Navy's downfall after the Battle of Endor:
After the fall of the Empire, the resources required to maintain and repair this thing is what led to the loss of so many. (Another reason why people like Thrawn figured the Death Star was a bad idea).
Once you lose a few major parts, you scrap that ISD for spare parts to upkeed a few others, and you go down that line until you've lost dozens of these things.
Most being taken to hidden space and left unmanned and in storage for later use, and working with less.
((Side Note for; 15:05 I woll say however, an ISD can hold enough food for a full crew for up to 2 years so, they got some decent storage space, I'll give them that.))
Having proper support ships, with multiple roles, is why the Tarkin Doctrine was ridiculous. Even getting rid of the Venator, which was a perfect carrier, was foolish. Sure, they used them incorrectly during the Clone Wars (like using an Aircraft Carrier as a Battleship, basically) but that could've been remedied.
Too many ISD's, not enough of literally anything and everything else.
The Venator would have fitted in perfectly with the (flawed) cheap Tie Fighter concept.
Having 400 Ties launched at once would actually be a formidable force that could just overwhelm Rebel X-Wings with sheer numbers.
@casbot71
Precisely. Absolutely. If I was an Admiral in the Imperial Navy, or any Military leader in general, I'd be that one guy using a mix of modern Imperial forces as well as Clone Wars Era stuff as well.
Give me a Venator or 2 with an Imperial Grey with Black Markings for a Paintjob? Shoot, I'd use it 😅 I'm sure Thrawn would too, I'm actually kinda surprised he didn't go looking for a few still active on the Outer-Rim himself
@@casbot71exactly. It was the perfect anti-rebel capital ship
@@thalmoragent9344Imagine a Venator with a mix of TIE Interceptor and Bomber and with a small amount of TIE Defender it would be simply unstoppable.
Id imagine the fact theyd be torn apart by other imperial forces getting into slugging matches so suddenly it just completely knocks them off balance that they couldnt get them back up and running.
I remember Beau of the Fifth Column once said something like amateurs talk strategy, professionals talk logistics. I'm beginning to see what he means. Even Thrawn himself is limited when his fleet lacks the resources to function.
I think that’s a Napoleon quote.
Logistically the Lucrehulk was cheaper and required far less resources. You could build and man 2 Lucrehulks for 1 ISD and could use it as a mobile dry dock building and repairing anything from fighters to light cruisers.
During the battle of the Lothal sector, while Thrawn always gargled himself at how a great tactician create plans, a clone, going by the numbers of CC-3510 answered to him :
Maybe, but a winning tactician creates logistical networks (and then soon after the deep-space drydock for the seventh fleet got hijacked by some alliance marines he led, creating havoc inside the seventh fleet for months to come)
The Star Destroyer, if there were only a few in the logistical system it wouldn't be a problem per se. But build your fleet around them, and suddenly you can't fight the one and only thing you're fighting: Insurgents, terrorist/freedom fighters, guerrilla fighters and any other issue.
A carrier would be better in the role the empire uses the Star Destroyer for.
If anything, the ISD should have been reserved as a command vessel for admirals and moffs like the SSDs while far more numerous smaller cheaper cruisers like the Arquitens class or the Cantwell arrestor cruiser form the backbone of the fleet.
And one with hyper-capable fighters. Limiting the TIE to little more than close-in CAP and fire support defeats the purpose of having fighters. Using the U.S. as an example, a carrier's aircraft are able to engage an enemy while keeping it at a safe distance with extended detection from AWACS and range extension with midair refueling. The Nimitz and Ford carriers are more like the Mon Cals with their compliments of Wing-type starfighters.
@@Al1701don’t underestimate the effectiveness of Ties, they were perfectly capable of popping X-Wings and Y-Wings with one or two direct hits. The Rebellion’s only advantage was that they could use surprise hit and run attacks and then flee before an Imperial counterattack could be mobilized.
Like a Venator.
@@Beuwen_The_Dragon I'm not arguing that the TIEs weren't excellent (albeit fragile) combat units. I meant they were limited in their ability to project a Star Destroyer's power beyond its immediate area.
And hyper-capability has more use than hit and run raids. Hyper-capable fighters can scout an area ahead of a fleet and secure it before it moves in, escort convoys (hardening that logistical tail from attack), handle situations that do not call for a starship, etc. Again, TIEs can only provide close-in CAP and fire support which the Wing-types can also do along with the other duties mentioned above.
Hyper-capable fighters can also escape a battle along their carrier rather than the carrier either stick around in a bad situation for their fighters to land or abandoning them.
The Royal Navy at the beginning of the 20th century had its battleships concentration in the Mediterranean fleet based in Malta, the Atlantic Fleet based at Gibraltar, and the Channel Fleet (renamed the Home Fleet) and Reserve Fleet in UK. The bulk of the Royal Navy and the face British power around the world oceans was the large numbers of 2nd and 3rd class protected cruisers etc. with their local flagships been the much larger armoured cruisers and 1st class protected cruisers.
As a skilled and educated logistical worker, I'm really happy to learn more about the logistics of Star Wars and the Defence Industry in the US today.
Most people never think about how to get something from its point of production to the place it needs to be, and that is why having great logistics is such a force multiplier.
Pun intended?
@@DaddyDumptruckDeluxe very much so
This may explain why TIE Fighters have solar panels on their wings. Considering how energy intensive the ISDs and the colossal SSDs needed to consume. The Imperial Navy couldn't spare as much fuel for the fighter crafts stationed on their mighty battleships, therefore solar panels at least provided TIEs with a way to avoid refueling as often as they could.
the solar panels only powered electronics. The engines of the TIE still needed fuel
For the mathematically-inclined, if a force loses 10% of its capability every time it fights, then after 10 battles it is down to 35% capability.
It's plausible that out of a total inventory of 25K star destroyers about 18K would be active warships, with 5K either in reserve or undergoing maintenance, and about 2K used for cannibalizing parts.
Using logistics as plot device is actually quite smart move from Disney side, after all, everything ultimately come down to logistics.
I always imagine star destroyers as having hydroponics bays to supply food mini arms factorys as well
To produce enough calories and protein for the 37 thousand crew, and maybe 20 thousand carried troops?
Personally i would like to see imperial fleet tenders. Ships who have hull space devoted to hydroponics/manufacturing. I feel like that would fit the imperial doctrine better l, they can build a new ship class and not sacrifice hull space on an isd.
Yep and yeast vats, or some kind of way to turn waste energy and "materials" into food to prolong periods they have to be resupplied.
@@kurskfirebrand4494A warship 1600 meters long, with a crew of 37k will have at least a tiny bit of manufacturing capability, in the form of dozens of lathes and so forth, welding equipment, and metal piping and sheet metal that can be adapted to various needs.
This raises the question of how more interesting the empire fleet could have been if they had only 1 ISD per sector as a command ship and a fleet of 600 meter long cruisers as the work horse ships. Or completely omitted the 1600 meter long ISD.
A problem with the ISD is its a generalist ship. Part ship of the line, part assault transport. A specialist "pure" design of a smaller size can beat it in a fight as the specialist did not waste the mass/space on troops and just loaded on more defenses and firepower.
Not necessarily.
The Star Destroyer itself is a very formidable ship, capable of carrying out a number of tasks.
In a Straight Up Fight the Rebellion could rarely field a fighting force capable of besting an ISD.
The only way Rebels were able to defeat an ISD in combat was through sheer superior numbers, which they did not often have.
This is why the Rebellion relied on Fast moving Surprise Hit-and-run attacks against Imperial Logistics installations, not full blown Military Bases.
Even against a Star Destroyer their only hope was to catch them by surprise and potentially disable one long enough to finish their attack on a Fuel Depot or other Logistics target, and flee before the Imperials regrouped.
The Empire’s problem wasn’t with their Ships, but rather their Tactics. Specifically, their Tactics of Fear Mongering over their own citizens.
The Empire’s tactics of ‘burn every rebel world” was extremely unpopular, and became even more so after the Empire started destroying their own worlds.
No Regime, no matter how militarily powerful, can survive without the Logistical, Financial or moral Support of its Citizens.
This is where the Empire Failed.
Tarkin Doctrine: "We can't defend against everyone in the Galaxy all at once, so let's give everyone in the Galaxy a *reason to attack us all at once*"
TheFatElectrician had a great story about the best logistical flex ever. Yes, Subway and Pizza Hut is a good example, but in World War 2, the US had ice cream barges that would follow the island hopping campaign.
Think about it. You are 7,000 miles from home in a tropical environment and you can get fresh ice cream.
Talk about a morale boost.
Good story, that one. I believe some Japanese admiral even commented on it and the folly of trying to fight a military capable of such a thing.
@@Big_Red1
Similar to how German commanders lamented when they saw a chocolate cake shipped to the front near Elsenborne among the belonging of captured G.I.s.
They said if Americans have enough logistic powers to ship civilian gifts from home to the front anywhere in the world while they themselves cannot get more than one supply drop a week within a walking distance from the rail heads, what chances to they have in a long, drawn out fights?
All forces, from the most decentralized Rebel cells, strict mercenary kingdoms, and all the way up to the emperor himself in his discoball have to meet the three requirements. Bred, fed, and lead.
Bred: You need warm bodies. You can't just shoot a reb, and have a stormtrooper pop out. The inverse is also true. You don't get a rebel for blowing a trooper to bits. Recruitment needs to occur in some fashion.
Fed: And it's not just about feeding. You have warm bodies, now you need to have boots for them to fill, guns for them to shoot, shovels to dig sand, and bags to put said sand in.
Led: Simple enough. Without someone who can say, "Follow me!" You have a mob. These individuals must be competent, and have some understanding of how these three work.
Despite all the Empire's posturing, their ISDs weren't invincible and one could be taken out by a supercharged shot from an ion cannon, like the one the Rebels had on Hoth. And as Hoth also proved, even an entire fleet of Star Destroyers couldn't bombard an area if it had a strong enough shield in place.
An intresting theory what if you got a venator as a back line ship(out of system of operation) and just had a lot x and y wings escorting small cruisers and frigates for missions
The problem there is that is looks like it can be attacked.
Or you can modify Venator class and use as support vessel. Like US nave Supply-class fast combat support ship. Repair ship like USS Medusa. Spacecraft repair ship as HMS Unicorn. So I'm saying use Venator as a mobile depo rather than just scraping it.
This is actually a phenomenal vid on supply chain and why good logistics are so important (especially for military), well done.
Yep, just ask Napoleon and Paulus!
Star Wars canon has always been REALLY off on the Star Destroyer numbers... 25k of these would require a logistics chain FAR beyond even what you imply here.
Primarily support ships, they would need 100k plus ships to surround theses & the SSD's
The crew numbers are mind boggling even at a galactic level & especially when you consider the empire disdained alien personel...
It's big. It's beautiful. That conning tower makes me weak at the knees. Star Destroyers are awesome.
Awesome call on the advantage of being able to bring all the guns to bear in an overwhelming fusillade of firepower. I always take the design of Star Wars ships with a bit of a grain of salt, mostly because most ships have at least one or two blatant weak points for the enemy to target, but Ido really appreciate when you can point out a legitimate advantage from a particular design. If Star Wars was focused on realism I always thought the ships would simply be spheres bristling with thrusters and guns, with the bridge and CIC near the core. But that would be so damn boring, it would literally be space balls.
*Side Note* Boeing suuuuux. Go GD!
As an observation, the Imperial occupation does not include "creature" comforts. There is no pre-fabricated pods for their version of Starbucks, McD, Tim Hortons, or 7/11. So the Imperial infrastructure of the area is limited to the local resources. They get "the shaft" if the area under control is Tatooine. Bet morale was pretty low compared to the guys at Scarif (prior to the super tsunami.)
I couldn’t agree more. Targeting logistics also helps the resistance. Use the empire’s supplies to take care of your needs.
That was part of what the Death Star was designed for. With docking bays big enough to park the Mark 2 Imperial Star Destroyer inside of it was far easier to restock and repair the ship while it was inside an air filled docking bay. That and it provided facilities for the crew to relax and refresh themselves and extensive medical facilities for the injured while the ship was docked there.
The fact that it had docking bays to park a Mark 2 in it also had bays big enough to park large supply ships in as well.
And it was capable of propelling itself and flying through hyperspace so it could go to where ever they had a fleet that needed re-provisioning or whatever hot spot was active at the time to support whatever fleet was there.
And it had a kick-ass weapon that could blast through any shield and blow up planets.
Fascinating, thanks. I remember reading about the situation in Vietnam where something like only 5-10% of personnel actually saw battle, with most in the rear with the gear - to enable full logistical support to those who WERE tramping through the jungle.
Very good talk on the importance of the "boring stuff". Logistics and upkeep are the most important part of any military. Sure you have the top of the line gear, but your troops aren't using night vision when they run out of batteries. One small part can literally sideline a mission in some circumstances.
You've also got a massive point with diversifying, and Boeing was a good example. I worked at the Everett factory for a few years when the 767 line was shutting down. It is now the line for the KC-46 Pegasus. Everything was already set up and just needed retooling.
I also love that you actually mentioned and went into R&D costs. No one seems to understand that nowadays. The B-2 was planned to be around 100 million a plane. Congress said "Nope. The Soviets are gone and we don't want to pay that. We'll take 20 instead of nearly 150." BOOM! That 100 million per aircraft figure jumps up to a billion per plane because that money was already spent. It HAS to be paid. And with a fleet of over 100, you also have the parts train to keep them in the air and spares to keep costs down.
Same exact thing with the F-22. It was supposed to completely replace the F-15C. All the money was built to replace the F-15C with new Raptors. Then Congress cut the orders to "save money", driving up the per unit costs, then cut the order again because it was so expensive driving up the cost even more. What is the Air Force doing now? Massive program to refit F-15C's to stay in service costing over a billion dollars at this point. So more money and resources spent for less bang.
Never understood trains in the Starwars universe if energy has little to no cost in the Starwars universe trains seem like an awfully inefficient and slow way to transport goods. (vs an autonomous flying drone) I guess it just harkens back to having relatable things in said universe.
Trains are very good at transporting extremely large amounts of resources very quickly for how much weight they are capable of pulling. Trains are capable of transporting not only heavy material but also variable sizes and shapes of objects. Plus compared to other forms of transportation like planes, trains are cheaper to fuel and maintain.
@@assaultghost00 I'm not debating thier effeciency as we understand them in are universe. (I use to work for a major railroad) Im saying that if energy use has little to no consequence just to put everything on flying drones for transportation. Most people do not realize how much behind the scenes maintenance rail roads require, ecspecially when it comes to maintenance of the right away (ie: tracks) so trains can maintain speed and smoothness. Much easier to just repair drones/space ships at a centralized facility.
@@ogjk what I was trying to get at is that trains are capable of transporting material that other forms of transportation cannot or atleast would be very difficult to do. Even in a world where energy and resources were abundant you still wouldn’t want to waste it or take it for granted. A real world example would be like trying to use planes to transport everything trains do, that isn’t beyond the realm of feasibility but it would be extremely costly to accomplish. Sure planes are way faster and flexible but they aren’t capable of transporting tons of material or the sizes of objects that trains can, so in order to accomplish that new planes would have to be designed for the exact purpose of transporting extremely large weights or extremely large objects. So In order to achieve this goal it would require the creation of completely new industries. This is the same issue with using drones.
Now for the Star Wars galaxy they have several advantages we do not for trains, they have access to anti gravity systems so trains dont require rails just a path to their destination and with their advanced technology their trains are far faster. They could use space craft to transport materials but it would run into the same issues that I described with planes, a completely new class of vehicles that don’t really do the job better then trains.
@@assaultghost00 Also some locations such may have tricky terrain or weather that could make it difficult, if not dangerous for flying crafts to transport goods. Mountains or places with high winds, sandstorms or snowstorms aren't ideal conditions for flying. Therefore something as simple as a train may just be better options.
Even in the old Star Wars games, the ISD was not particularly good. In the Rebellion game, they cost a lot to build, required massive planets dedicated to only having shipyards in order to build them in a somewhat timely manner (typically no less than 12 shipyards - planets that could hold 14 of anything were rare and thus golden), and were largely helpless against what always dealt the most damage in a battle: starfighters. Sure, the ISD carried a decent complement of starfighters, it could certainly hold its own against most capital ships, and it definitely unleashed quite the planetary bombardment, but otherwise, it was too much of a resource drain. You were better off just building fleets of escort carriers with accompanying Interdictors (5+ ECs per IC) and just keeping the starfighters fully stocked and top-of-the-line - far cheaper and yields more fleets and thus more means of offense and defense.
Even the ISD II, while an improvement, was still more of a drain than it was an effective platform. It's like even the game designers recognized just how terrible and ineffective the Tarkin Doctrine is.
Disney should seriously hire you for their story logistics bruddah !!!
Disney needs to hire a lot of Star Wars TH-camrs. Would love to see some of EC Henry's designs make it into some show or movie.
I think we may have to wait until Disney sell off LucasFilms itself to raise cash, which may not take long.
@@warshield924that's for sure
1:20 Just realised the Star Destroyer is a successor to the Acclamatir rather than the Venator in is intended purpose. I guess it really was a step back. 😂
Love the world building and real-world examples. Stuff like this makes things more understandable and believable.
As a resident of Newport News, thanks for showing the shipyard I’ve grown up seeing!!
IIRC, you figure about 1/3 of a fleet is combat ready most of the time. That can be boosted up to 2/3 for a shortish time.
This was a very informative video, the comparisons to our real world military etc really made your point clear, man i love your star wars content👐💯
In this aspect Imperial Navy was a SW counterpart to an IRL Soviet Navy. Its main problem was a constant building of huge numbers of combat ships - but its ship repair, basing ant and replenishment capabilities were abysmal, with even pierside space in soviet naval bases being a high-prized luxury. Due to that many soviet naval ships were forced to spend their time at anchor off their bases, constantly running their engines at a small fraction of power output to provide electricity and heating which steadily wore off their machinery leading mean time between failure (which was already lower than in US Navy due to lower standard of workmanship) getting even shorter than expected. Moreover, that manner exposed them to weather conditions of open roadsteads which sometimes led to disaster like a near-loss of a carrier cruiser Kiev in a squall when on 3rd november 1978 the ship was caught in a gale while laying at anchor near Severomorsk and ended up beached with extensive damage to hull. The peculiar feature was that despite cruiser being new (Kiev was commissioned in december 1975, just three years before) it engines were so strained by frequent work and lack of servicing that even using all engines and a sea anchor being streamed didn't prevent it from grounding.
Another problem was severe lack of repair facilities. The problem was social rather than economic - in socialist system, succesful building of a ship granted her builders generous welfare perks, awards, tickets to resorts and access to western consumer goods; repairing a ship wasn't seen such glorious undertaking as a building it, so repairing ships was always a low priority. The same went for producing spares for ship systems and subsystems - it wasn't such a well-rewarded matter as producing systems, so all that shiny weapons and ships simply never had adequate numbers of spares. That led to tragedies very often - one of the most bizzare situations spawned by "socialist production management" was one that occured during sinking of submarine S-178 in 1981. On that boat, whole stern crew perished due to being unable to use stern emergency escape hatch. It simply had no valve on it - due to spares being not produced, someone has just stolen valve from an emergency hatch to do urgent repairs on some other boat. Or submarine K-429 where it was uncovered after her loss that her escape pod was welded to the hull - it was done to prevent it from accidentally deploying during dives, because no replacements were available.
Needless to say that attitudes applied to other branches of USSR armed forces.
To build a huge number of hulls is easy, even soviets could do that. But not everyone can support and run a Navy.
i agree with you about moff gideon being very smart by usin an aquitens command cruiser instead of an isd as the new republic wont target him
an empire built around clone wars venators and cruisers would have doomed the rebellion early. tie pilots were super well trained & then tarkin stuffed them in essentially a card board box.
Im so glad you mentioned food. Like you said irl, the united states logistics is incredibly impressive. Most my relatives have served, and every one of them have said every base they were deployed at no matter how remote, always had a fast food joint, have it be mcdonalds or pizza hut, there was always something.
Great video man, I miss your videos but been avoiding them because I haven’t seen Ahsoka yet. I’m always way behind on these things. But I love how you break down these kinds of things, the actual things that would make a military work and makes the world feel actually alive
Allen, I really appreciate your insight on these videos. It's helped me change the way I think about things. It's broadened my mind horizons. Truly thank you
I'm not sure if there is anyway to add to the Star Destroyers a way to collect hydrogen while in space. If it has an abundant supply of energy, food replicators and some low power states can be substained. Somewhere online, I believe in 2015, I ran across a story idea where there was a Star Destroyer left abandoned, drifting through space for thousands of years, only be discovered in the Star Wars Galaxy long after any of the events in our current stories took place. I'm wondering what a future Star Wars civilization would think of that old relic.
I don't really think the Star Wars galaxy is that great at logistics. Numerous factions and corporations tend to just run through planets and leave them desolate and without their resources. Not to mention, the SW galaxy tends to only rely on a few planets that tend to have the vital and exotic materials like Doonium for ships or Quaxium for their hyperspace fuel.
What happens to the galaxy at large once they use all the exotic resources that keep their galactic civilization running?
Really liked this video! Was thought through very well and presented in an easy to follow way! The logistics of a sci-fi universe is intriguing.
This is why I like the video game stellaris, if your empire doesn't have enough food, electricity, etc, it doesn't matter how many ships you have you will still lose
Yup. You have to build a solid economy.
I thought you liked unlimited power?
You dont need that many troops to conquer Coruscant. You just need a squadron of Z-95's and a very large storm. 😊
Great points in this vid. Especially the part about the logistics of maintaining a large fleet of behemoths like the ISD.
Newport News yards also produces other navy ships including submarines
In terms of the US logistics
There are several special fleets around the globe specifically built to rapid supply/resupply. Also as the general fleet has been maintained, the decades of resupply on the go has improved.
During WWII it could take a day to resupply a carrier while today the same job can be done in less than 6 hours for a vessel 4-5 times the size/crew
(:talks about Boeing)
7:12 - Airbus A380s, not made by Boeing.
7:34 - Ditto
I know airliners all look the same, but the A380 is the only one with a full two passenger decks and the windows to match.
I love your videos. Really I do! You're the most thoughtful and articulate SW TH-camr out there!
Going into legends I was under the assumption palapatine built up the military because he foresaw the war with the vong
This was a very well done video and breakdown. In history everyone is trying to destroy the logistics of the other side. To destroy the means of production and supply (that includes the people making things) was the whole reason for so many battles in every war ever waged. Sherman's march to the sea, almost all of the bombing in WWII, Ukraine and other fights going on today. Yes there are some battles for just destroying battle formations, but they are a small part of things. In major and minor conflicts.
Allen you are the best Star Wars content reviewer out there TY my man ,you open a whole new world of info...
Allen's right, an army marches on its stomach.
Fun fact, that's exactly the same strategy Iraqi insurgents used to deal with the US military. Abrams tanks are incredibly tough and deadly even by tank standards but, they're also incredibly resource intensive. So Iraqis quickly started to target supply convoys that carried fuel and ammo for the tanks which were just soft skin vehicles.
US military be like: "That's why logistics rules suckers!".
Twilight Company is literally one of my favorite Canon books, I'm happy you always pull from it.
I always thought Star Wars ships were crazily over-crewed for their size. Like, a Galaxy-class Starship in Star Trek, about a third the length of an ISD (if a lot less massive), has only 1000 crewmembers (and they cut that down to 700ish in the Dominion War -- once Starfleet got over the stupid idea of having families aboard military vessels), compared to an ISD's 37 000! That's an insane amount of people, even in a mile-long ship, especially when a huge portion of its interior is taken up by its hanger bay. Any RTS player can tell you logistics run your military. If you don't have enough supply depots (literally, if you're playing Terran), you don't have troops.
The sheer size of the Imperial Navy was bound to be its downfall sooner or later, and really speaks to the Empire's arrogance. Still, I think Legends was far more realistic in Empire fighting on for 15 years after Endor, not the one year in Disney canon. Though I suppose the Galactic Civil War ending in a peace treaty (and the olive branch was extended by Pellaeon's Imperial Remnant at that), is just not showy enough for the Mouse, even if it is more realistic.
That isn’t really a fair comparison.
A Galaxy class starship is not only far smaller in size by volume alone, but also is a more advanced and automated spacecraft than an ISD.
Tech in the Star Wars Universe, while advanced, is very Mechanically Intensive.
And considering that for its size, and the sheer number of weapons and systems that an ISD would have, the crew number really isn’t that bad.
For example, nearly 10k of that 37,000 crew are Strictly Imperial Infantry and Stormtroopers.
That leaves roughly 27,000. A large number for sure, but of that would be Flight and Deck crew, small craft and vehicle Maintenance and so fort.
A Star Destroyer has a complement of 70+ Tie Fighters, Tie Bombers, Gunships, Dropships and Transports, as well as ground vehicles and armoured transports. A Modern Aircraft Carrier with a similar complement of aircraft typically has a crew of 5,700, a full 2,500 of which are dedicated to the Airwing alone.
So figure that of the 27,000 personnel, 3,000-4,000 are dedicated to the assorted small craft facilities on board, conservatively.
That leaves 23,000-24,000 crew.
Typically, a full Ship’s complement works in eight hour shifts of three. Which means at optimal performance, an imperial Star Destroyer works Three Full Shifts each numbering roughly 7,660-8,000 crew at any given time.
Not necessarily a bad number, considering that an ISD is roughly ten times the size of a Super carrier.
Even ‘dreadnought” class Frigates (in the Starwars universe) have a crew of 9-10,000, and they are a full 1/6th the size of an ISD.
So really, the crew complement scales rather realistically.
The Empire has a lot of imperial Star Destroyers but can not even run in full capacity.
Talking Boeing while showing Airbuses (A380s, specifically); now that’s the way to keep Europeans engaged.
“Oh, Brilliant. Brilliant.” -Maul
You make a very valid point in the video, but there is a slight problem with the argument you made for America solely focusing on carriers and smaller ships. It isn't that America can no longer restart large scale ship production. It's actually because of the changes in American naval doctrine and modern technology. Now, instead of relying on large battleships and maybe a few carriers for air power, we focus on smaller, faster ships that can protect our massive carrier fleet while still giving the attacking force one heck of a bad time with anti-ship missiles.
The fleet you have on screen at the time 9:26 is a great example of a larger carrier strike group. 2 Nimitz class carriers and 2 amphibious assault ships protected by 4 guided missile frigates and another 4 Arleigh Burke class destroyers.
The result is a very fast response fleet that is also packing some serious firepower and can defend themselves with overlapping fields of fire and shared radar for guided defenses.
Now regardless of our differing opinions on that matter, I do like the video a lot. It really shows just how dependant ANY military is on a proper logistical setup. Without our logistics getting food, fuel and ammo to our military, no military can function very well beyond their borders.
Considering the number of ships, including the death star and super star destroyer, at Endor, there was no reason the Empire should have failed, if even 1/10th of the forces were used. It looked like maybe a company of troops were landed, rather than 50%!
You are correct. Realistically, if the Empire maintained loyalty of thousands of Worlds with all their resources, it shouldn’t have lost.
Which is why the more recent stories and Lore required the Empire become cartoonishly evil in order for it to realistically collapse.
The flaws of the Empire aren’t with its Star Destroyers or Tie Fighters, it is with its apparent doctrine of ‘Burn the cities and Salt the Fields” total warfare that made them entirely unpopular among the Galaxy, especially in recent stories where the Empire burned *their own worlds* apparently…
Quickest way to turn your own population against you, become hostile to your own citizens.
So really, the fall of the Empire wasn’t because of Star Destroyers or Being ‘logistics dependent” (EVERY military relies on Logistics) but rather because like all State Militaries, the Empire was Dependent on its Civilian Population to supply itself, so turning their guns on their own citizens is what led to their demise.
The Emperor and his assumed heir along with the appointed supremem commander of their forces were all killed in quick succession. That level of chaos caused the Imperials to break ranks and retreat as they figure out what to do.
Unfortunately it also led to a power vaccum that fragmented the empire.
It's not that requiring a crap load of logistics is the problem, it's that the logistics are weak
Alan, can you make a video about the Manadator line of Dreadnoughts including the most recent one being the Mandator-IV used by the First Order.
Great video GenTech! A fascinating look into Imperial logistics.
Meanwhile on a random planet somewhere in the Galaxy, an Imperial Officer is yelling at a Trawler captain to double his food-gathering efforts.
Stuff like this is what makes the Star Wars vs Star Trek duality interesting. Add a replicator and/or teleporter in the mix and things start changing massively.
When I was deployed to Iraq, the Al Asad air base chow hall had one day a WEEK where they served crab legs and lobster tails and another day each week where they served steak. No, I'm not kidding. US military logistics may not have been responsible so much as the large number of senior officers stationed at that base, but it did wonders for my morale.
Really makes you appreciate ships like the Venator & Acclamator, which were light enough to land on a planet's surface to refuel/restock/repair, etc. The ISD was too heavy, making these procedures a lot more difficult & time consuming.
Absolutely loved this video because it's exactly what I was thinking regarding Moff Gideon and the Imperial Remnant and Thrawns Chimera in the latest shows. Who feeds, resupplies, and provides fuel to these ships now? How can they still be operational after many years? Do they still have crew that is trained and able to properly use them now that there is no imperial academies etc. I found it odd that Thrawns ship was still even flying after 10 years and that there is enough food for his crew.
That is because in the show, They don’t know what to do with anybody…
Take Thrawn for instance.
He is thrust into a new Galaxy with a ship and crew, and one of his mortal enemies.
In ten years time he (somehow) let his enemy escape, didn’t establish a foothold in the new Galaxy, he didn’t set up a fortified base of operations, or establish any farms for foraging food, didn’t observe or establish contact with any new players in the Galaxy, (outside of a few dozen primitive local mercenaries), he didn’t formulate alliances with any space faring powers, didn’t even fortify ‘Isengard” or whatever that place was…
He just sat on his star destroyer, twiddling his thumbs until somebody came and got him…
"Private run companies are more efficient"
United Healthcare: *exists*
Interesting diatribe, Sir. I forgot who said it: "Any fool can raise an army, but you start running into problems around dinnertime."
Empire really missed HARD with the Death Star.
Death Star had the capacity to act as a central supply and refit yard for HUNDREDS of star destroyers. Instead, they leaned into using it as a terror weapon and made a nice fat juicy target of it.
Wow! Very well done! Very good points. I like your ending statement!
Instead of the Death Star, why Palpatine did not come up with his personal fleet a lot earlier? I mean, it he can commanded his own persona war fleet in battle, he can rule the Outer Rim a lot easier while leaving everything behind at the Core Worlds for Mass Amedda to manage.
"See, Palpatine understood the economics of scale."
I always knew Robert McNamara was Palpatine.
Imagine a “Wolf on Wall Street” type movie of a Black Sun gangster selling KDY stocks that never existed, that would be such a fun movie to watch
Logistics - Having the biggest ship in a battle is great but if your enemy has fuel in their ship and you don't it's not going to go your way.
there's a reason that if you go and ask an analyst what the most transformative inventions in military history were the first thing they say will probably be "Noodles"
and yes, even today Noodles are a more powerful weapon than Nukes.
Side note, Newport News does, also, build the Virginia Class submarines as they have for years along side General Dynamics/Electric Boat. But your point is still intact...
Excellent video
Perun? In my Generation Tech Star Wars video? A surprise, but a pleasant one for sure!
Somehow, _10.000 Star Destroyers with Planet Busters on a single planet in the unknown regions with nowhere near the necessary population, resources or manufacturing capabilities_ , returned...
The truck is mightier than the tank
- Some dude somewhere at some point in history
That “some dude” is you, just now. Credit where credit’s due. 😊
Love your videos
Booster Terrik and his Errant Venture😂
Thanks for the video
Personaly if i were to build my own fleet i would make small dreadnoughts that have multi purpose methods from carriers to destroyers. Similaf to the sith empires, except have up to date technology and utalise drone units for fighters and bombers.
Another thing to consider on the ISD front is that (nominally) they are supposed to be able to operate autonomously for a maximum of 2 years, at least as far as projections of the onboard consumables go. So, food, fuel, water, spare parts, and atmosphere recycling are only able to sustain 2 years of "normal" operation, not attrition warfare.
Being able to regularly top off and refresh without ever needing to tap and drain the projected consumables limitations probably left the Empire's ISD crews feeling a bit spoiled and complacent.
We STILL have the ability an expertise for large scale building.. what you mean to say Allen is we no longer have quite the NEED to build nearly so MANY ACs an the need to hugely build up a massive fleet anymore. As even fairly nasty conflicts hasn't been so bad or nearly so long.. or even an enemy capable of being so powerful to actually facilitate the need for such things. Something that size would basically be WW3 levels of production. It took just such a thing last time to trigger THAT much building an trade too
I understand what you're saying easily. It's not that we can never go back to a more quantity based military production model, it's just that we choose not to as the advanced equipment model has worked so far. But if a cheaper, more attritionable model is needed it may take a few years but it could be done.
never in all my years did I think somebody would bring up Newport News in a Star Wars video
Beans, Bullets and Band-aids
Equate an ISD to the Bismarck in WW2... A big reason it was sunk was due to a single Polish destroyer, the Prion harassing it nonstop for more than a day until the big guns could show up to take out the Bismarck which was now greatly low on ammunition, morale, and sleep.
Yo not a bad video man 👍 keep up the grind, been watching since like 2015
How can you know if the video is good or not? Did you watch it before it was uploaded?
@@BasicallyBaconSandvichIV maybe 😊