Bring this guy back i have seen some of the things he has was talking about.Have watched this video 10 time to rap my head around this but have seen it
One of the best pod-cast ever here. Tim knows what he is talking about. I went out on a weather change today to check a load for my 6PPC and realized I had a tad of horizontal. My V-2 tuner setting for the load is 35 since 30, 35, & 40 gave me the tightest groups. I set the tuner back to 30 and forward to 40 and horizontal was still there. Set it back to 35 and seated 5 bullets .003 deeper. You guessed it . Horizontal was gone. Keep up the good work Erik with getting knowledgeable people on the pod-cast. Tim is a winner.
Top 3 videos, might even be #1, awesome interview! By the end I had a good grasp on the subject with all the great explanations and great questions. To me it seemed as though this was a mechanical explanation of what the barrel does during launch. This video 2yrs ago would have saved me a lot of ammo and testing time. Started using your V2 a year ago and it really helped, now I know why 👍👍 Now if I could only read wind and mirage 😢 This ones getting watched again! Thanks for the fantastic videos and wealth of information!
I'm shure glad this is on a platform that I can watch again and again . So much good information . Will take time to absorb and understand it in its entirety . Thank you both so very much for taking the time to do this for all of us . 🤔😇🍻🍻🍻
as soon as the primer strike occurs a small resonance will travel throughout the entire rifle, then the primer detonates/fires and a second resonance will occur, then the powder burn/detonates and a third resonance, and fourth the actual bullet down the barrel will cause resonance. The more dense an object is the faster a wave will travel through it. IE, hit metal with a hammer vs hit a foam pad with a hammer. Since a rifle is metal the vibration will travel down the barrel faster than the bullet. Vibration is sound. So the speed of sound in air which is less dense is 343 m/s, metal which is more dense is 5120m/s. m/s is meters per second. speed of sound is 1125 ft/sec. 5120 m/s is 16,797.9 ft/sec. A 308 bullet travels at 2800 ish ft/sec. So the vibration from detonation is traveling significantly faster than the bullet down the barrel. Basically, I'm trying to say that the wave/vibration which is sound, is traveling significantly faster down a metal barrel than the actual bullet is. So the barrel is then likely taking on its own harmonic as the metal molecules transfer the sound/vibration traveling through it. A question would be is the sound traveling through the metal enough to change or affect the bullet? The vibration IS way ahead of the bullet, 15 times faster. I would say 65k psi is enough pressure to cause a lot of vibration/sound. This is absolutely causing the barrel to "whip" . Not sure if any of this makes sense, but I bought one of your runners and it's awesome. Well made, looks good, easy to use, works as advertised. Thanks for doing these videos. Think musical instrument tuners, by tightening up the strings the string vibrates faster... My belief is the tuner tightens up the vibration of the barrel making it more accurate. It vibrates faster so it vibrates less distance making the barrel more accurate. Less amplitude more accurate.
So I've done harmonic simulations with tuners attached to barrels. As they move the harmonic frequencies of all modes (longitudinal, horizontal vertical, etc) shift. Tuners do absolutely adjust horizontal but there will be a spot where they're primarily adjusting vertical and horizontal is tamed. Everything else sounds spot on.
I want to Believe the "Positive Compensation" theory but I've got to see the Target first! Staying tuned for the follow-up on this topic. Erik, just my thoughts for how to test for positive compensation. Do the ladder test that Tim suggested to find a charge weight near the middle of the positive compensation ramp. Tim's example at 1:02, has a positive compensation charge of say 94.5 grains near the middle of the upward ramp, so go either side of this and load 10 rounds each at 93.5 and 95.5 (both still in the positive compensation range). Then shoot alternating shots at distance recording each shot velocity and position. May want to use something like 306/6.5CM so the amount of drop will be higher. See if you can shoot a horizontal line or do the shots tend to fall into group vertically based on charge weight and/or velocity?
What a coincidence. Yesterday I went to test a few loads for my new rifle and observed this phenomenon: starting with a certain load with increasing powder charge impact points on the target were stepping down. I was thinking maybe at some point I messed up the order I put seated rounds to the box... and today this vid appeared! Thanks Eric for starting this channel - I find it very informative and useful. Lots of great stuff here, I have recommeded your channels to people I shoot with and they also enjoy it . Greetings from Poland.
Please take the 1 shot ladder test (about 1:04) and repeat this with suitable charge for a system you feel is suitable for testing. Repeat the ladder 5 times and see if you can produce the same pattern all 5 times, or at least very similar results.
Definitely will have to watch this over and over to absorb all the info in this video. Great video. I too would like to see a follow up video or more on this subject.
Oh well, the cat is out of the bag now. Yes, we Aussies have been mucking around with Positive Compensation since Adam was a boy. But it's only half the story, and no - negative compensation is not the other; that's just the flip (negative) side of the same coin. The other half is ajusting and managing the amplitude of Positive Compensation using the barrel you have. But that's another story for for another time. And again, there are a number of tools we can use, barrel tuners are just one option; number 3 on my list. That said, the video is already nearly 2 hours long. Well done Tim, you explained it well.
Sounds like this might be some of the same secret things that John Myers does, changing barrel length to find the "magic number", moving the tuner one way or the other depends on what he's seeing. Might not be what he calls it and might not be the whole story, but I'm better there's alot in common here. Who knows, maybe I'm way off... but sounds like it to me.
First of all I watch almost every video in this series and hit the like button on all of them. I have definitely implemented things I've learned in some of them. I find this one frustrating because there's so much information presented as fact and no evidence to back it up. Not even exceptional performance by the person giving it out(which given his decades of shooting should exist if he's got some large advantage in tuning). There's never been a dead calm day? "My guns are the most accurate I just can't prove it on target". After hearing that and the "I've talked to a bunch of scientists and they all agree with me" multiple times it really makes it a lot harder to take him seriously. This is exactly the kind of language used by snake oil salesmen(I'm not accusing him of being one). There were also a bunch of statements he made that are in direct conflict to what you've claimed previously Eric. The two biggest being that tuners do not compensate for seating depth and that they only correct for vertical dispersion not a general shrinking of group size. He asserts that a tuner cannot, by itself, take an inaccurate gun and make it more accurate. He also says that a tuner needs to be custom made/weighted for the specific gun to work properly. One of the main things I've learned from these podcasts is that no one really understands what is actually happening and most of the experts have firm opinions that are in direct opposition to each other. To be clear I understand what he's saying and some of it does sound plausible. I'm not sure it matters enough to worry about. At the end of the day It should be very easy to prove that tuners work once and for all in a statistically relevant double blind test yet I haven't seen a single one. I'm not saying they don't work because I don't know for sure. I know they can change bullet impact location but I've yet to see someone shoot 25+ shots at the "good" setting, then make a small change to a "bad" setting to shoot 25 more, then switch it back to the good to prove that it's repeatable. Ideally with someone moving the tuner for them so they don't know which setting it is on. Let the gun cool and clean it to bare metal between tests followed by a few warm up shots before each string. If shooter fatigue becomes an issue you can run it twice on separate days in the opposite direction. Why not? Given the die hard tuner enthusiasts and all the companies that could benefit from showing this test working it seems likely that it has been tried and they did not get the results they wanted. Therefore we never saw the video. At the end of the day I appreciate the effort you're putting into making all the information you can available. I'm guessing that if we actually do figure out what really works best it will end up being more simple than we think because so many of the top shooters in every discipline use different ways to get there. That was quite the rant on my part!
I applaud Tim and Eric for their openness and willing to share information. It is not helpful to slander these well intentioned gentlemen by referring to them as snake oil salesmen. Why do you have to be so mean spirited with people that are trying to help you learn and become a better shooter? Time to take a look in the mirror my friend. Good luck with your cynicism….
@@timburke2785 I literally said I wasn't accusing him of being a snake oil salesmen in the same sentence you read those words. I said those type of statements are typical of people who are. Frankly, if you have a tuning method that makes your guns more accurate than others who don't use it you should be able to show that's true. Eric has won all those competitions without using these methods. I also said that I watch and "like" every video Eric puts out and that I appreciate and have used some information gained from them. There was no slandering involved. I was expressing frustration at the lack of data driven proof and that many of the videos featuring proven shooters directly contradict each others methods/claims. How is a new shooter supposed to determine who is right? There is nothing wrong with skepticism and asking for evidence. My intentions are in no way mean spirited. I would bet that if you asked Eric if he agreed with all the claims in the video he would say no and have his own reasons for feeling that way. It can just be counter productive and adversarial to point that out during the interview. I want everyone to shoot better and enjoy the various disciplines because I want to be able to compete with them for many years to come!
Erik uses a tuner for different reasons then what Tim is teaching and talking about if you watch this podcast with a open mind you will truly understand that its proof how exit timing shows that tuners do work. And that barrels do move prior to bullets leaving the barrel. And that shifting weight on the barrel changes the rate and amplitude of movement. . Positive compensation is a fact of physics as a bullet goes where its directed and there are benifits to its use.
Would 1gr increments in smaller cartridge work just as well? Min Maks for typical 140gr bullet in 6.5 with H4350 is somewhere between 41.5gr and 36.5gr…However I dont know anyone that would run a 6.5 that slow…(36.5). To get 6 data points for the tune graph would one then perhaps start at 42.0gr (pressure depending) and work back in 1gr or perhaps 0.5gr to end at 39.5gr?
I really want to see what (if anything) you could see with a phantom camera as far as barrel movement between the time the primer is hit to when the bullet exits the muzzle
I’ve been trying to find information pertaining to this exact subject for so long and trying to figure out some way to measure the compensation I was seeing with my 300 wm, from this I’ve learned measuring the angular departure is almost impossible to measure . His process makes it way simpler and makes complete sense. Awesome video!
Thank you ever so much. This stuff is mind blowing! Its darn hard to explain though. Its basically tuning your load so that the barrel movement compensates for velocity variation.
@@BelieveTheTarget Thank you! it explains so well why a group with a good SD/ES may shoot poor and a group with a bad sd/es may shoot well. Another gremlin has been killed!
Thanks for sharing another great video! Out of curiosity, Tim was talking about weight a bit changing things which makes sense. How is it that “heavy” suppressors may or may not make a difference in POA/POI but a small barrel tuner can?
Erik hello. You mentioned in the video on your tuner the screws with the nylon tips to tighten the tuner. Is there a recommended setting for those screws in torque inch/lbs.? Thanks
I guess I am an idiot. I was semi-following, but not fully. But, maybe it is this gentleman’s delivery, I felt like I was listening to a used car salesman. I feel bad as I try to go into all of these with an open mind. But I just couldn’t pick up what this guy was puttin down. It just never seemed to make sense. Back to dragging knuckles in my own little world.
Some of us have been using tuners for many years and understand where Tim is coming from. not everyone uses a tuner for convergence or positive compensation
So now what barrel profiles and lengths help the most? I would think it’s caliber related as well and maybe even material? Stainless flexes differently than chrome-moly. I remember from the shooting Wherehouse story a 21 3/4” long barrel was a magic number. Does this testing and results change when it’s a semi-auto? My head hurts……….thanks 😂
Tuners work at 1/2, 1/3, 1/4 of the barrel length. Not just the end of the barrel. String interments will demonstrate this if one touches the plucked string at 1/2, 1/3, 1/4. My rubber donuts slid on my barrels at these places for $10.00 increase my firearms accuracy.
I’ve heard before that when you think about powder and loads you can have fps variations even measuring down to the kernel of powder. The reason can be because some powders per kernel have density differences and when you put that into a case of a certain size that there is going to be differences in the volume and that can lead to these variations. Honestly I think that volume plays a bigger role in fps than measuring by kernels. I’d like to see you, Erik, do a test on velocity dropping powder from a thrower and by measuring per kernel of powder and what the bigger ES is between the 2.
59:29 Theory: Seating depth changes extreme spread because it's changing burn time and psi before bullet leaves case and hits the rifling, with everything else equal. The usable case volume is changing with seat depth changes. This extra volume creates a deadband or shock absorber, evens out the psi from slightly different charge weights. No gap magnifies any powder variation and e.s. goes up. The static force (psi) to start the bullet moving into the chamber rifling is more than the kinetic force to keep it moving down the barrel. (Maybe?) These 2 forces will balance smoother with the ideal headspace, and powder differences get evened out in the barrel instead of a hard initial hit that sends big harmonics and shocks the barrel, inconsistent es. Just thinking out loud.
When a limbsaver ( rubber donut) is placed 1/3 of the barrel length from the muzzle, that third is 3 times the original barrel frequency. That will cause the front 1/3 of the barrel to move 3 times as fast and 1/3 the distance resulting in 1/3 the dispersion-smaller groups.
So I have an EC tuner brake on my rifle and because of what Tim has said regarding muzzle blast, I decided to swap it for a V2 tuner. But finding out they’re only made in one size means I would have to buy an adapter which would project past the crown. Is this correct?
This conversation is very informative from a scientific standpoint. Everything that you two have covered has an effect on our shooting, from a target standpoint. But and I am an old shooter at 73, most people man woman and child only want to know that there gun is going to hit that animal where they are aiming. I came from an era where we hunted to feed the family. To shoot twice was not acceptable. Personally, I am enthralled by this conversation, not that it will affect me, but hopefully have a better understanding of the results when I do shoot. This is my first foray into long range and realize that this old dawg can still learn. Thanks very much!
So if positive compensation is true, then would load testing at 100 yards be better than long range? I would assume that would mean your velocity variance would appear at 100 yards more than long range
So we’ve developed a load for minimum ES/SD which gives us an optimum velocity. The question is how do we set up a tuner to give us positive competition centred about this optimum velocity? Or is this not relevant?
Sounds like this concept goes some distance to explain why the old Canadian High Power competitors claimed that really good individual Lee Enfield rifles could to a large degree self compensate for different ammo. Lots of flex in that action!
27:50 if the slow bullet would allegedly hit .7 higher at 100 to hit level at 1000…. What direction was the wind from? Aerodynamic jump? I think that should have been mentioned. But then I guess the horizontal would have been off as well? Heck idk
Barrel movement makes sense, why do we use soft barrels? Why not have a barrel that’s heat treated? Have the barrel like 50 Rockwell “not the chamber area” just the rest of the barrel. Anything that’s harder will flex less right?
Barrel deflections depend upon its Modulus of Elasticity which is about 29,000,000 psi for most steels. Hardening by heat treating does not change this property.
I was thinking of a hot barrel about 20 minutes in, and I stuck it out until the end only to hear the conclusion about hot barrels, I couldn't help but watch the whole thing, great topic.
I love the word “IF”. The best response, to the word if, is, but you didn’t. I love using the phrase if grandma did not die, she would still be alive. And my personal favorite is, IF my sister had a dick, she would be my brother!
I had to watch this twice but holy crap!!! I run EC tuner brakes on all my target rifles and on my main hunting rifle. Love them btw! I’m totally going to test this theory out. It just makes good sense to me. Thanks for doing all of this. In the last 2 years you have completely changed the way I think about how I reload and shoot. I actually did a complete overhaul on my reloading shop so I could copy what you do. Again THANK YOU so very much for helping us get better!!
As an electrician you need to study ac current and frequency. The graph is the same now you just need to find your Hertz… 60Hz if your in the US 50hz in the UK
I think my thought was confirmed. You have to get in the ballpark with seating depth first...then finalize with a tuner. I have EC's tuner/ brake and it's like driving a Ferrari to go a mile vs a fancy pair of running shoes.
So I was thinking, if the graph pattern is true for different weight charges, and a tunner will shift this pattern, could you produce this pattern by simply staying at one charge and moving the tuner between shots.
After watching this twice I finally got it. So, I went out and tested it. Tim's onto something here. The visual presentation of shots on paper matches what he talked about, but most importantly, your V2 tuner responded to the changes as he said it would! From my small sample, It seems to work in spades!
Im ghessing it goes in all directions aswell but if you have weight (tuner)at the end of the barrel there is a loaded force pulling downward until the recoil kicks in and shifts the weight making the end of the barrel move up and putting it into a up and down wobble. 😅 ive never used a tuner so this is a stab in the dark
@@Jasonschmidtschannel You are probably right to some extent, but in general w/o a tuner people still believe it only goes up and down. Those "flyers" on the waterline right to left are not wind in all cases.
The internet isn't ready................
Oh well. 😂
Bring this guy back i have seen some of the things he has was talking about.Have watched this video 10 time to rap my head around this but have seen it
One of the best pod-cast ever here. Tim knows what he is talking about. I went out on a weather change today to check a load for my 6PPC and realized I had a tad of horizontal. My V-2 tuner setting for the load is 35 since 30, 35, & 40 gave me the tightest groups. I set the tuner back to 30 and forward to 40 and horizontal was still there. Set it back to 35 and seated 5 bullets .003 deeper. You guessed it . Horizontal was gone. Keep up the good work Erik with getting knowledgeable people on the pod-cast. Tim is a winner.
Thank you
Oh Boy ,atleast one more podcast with Tim
This might be my favourite episode so far. Thanks for doing these EC. 🤜🤛
Glad you like them!
35 mins in my mind is blown. I'm sucked in.
The engineers Jayden and Miles at Hornady are currently sweeping the glass shards from their monitors thrown at the wall after listening to this one.
😂😂😂
I hope there is a follow up after Erik sends in his targets. Thanks for doing these Erik. These help advance the science of shooting exponentially.
Thank you.
Wow , that hurt my brain, took a lot of thinking to get it , but extremely interesting.
Top 3 videos, might even be #1, awesome interview! By the end I had a good grasp on the subject with all the great explanations and great questions. To me it seemed as though this was a mechanical explanation of what the barrel does during launch. This video 2yrs ago would have saved me a lot of ammo and testing time. Started using your V2 a year ago and it really helped, now I know why 👍👍 Now if I could only read wind and mirage 😢 This ones getting watched again! Thanks for the fantastic videos and wealth of information!
Thank you. Keep at it!
I'm pretty sure this is "next level," but I might need to watch it 2 more times just to fully wrap my head around it.
Anyone else see Erik’s wheels spinning when Tim started talking about neck sizing😂 burn out on a dang drag car they were spinning so fast😂
😂
I'm shure glad this is on a platform that I can watch again and again . So much good information . Will take time to absorb and understand it in its entirety . Thank you both so very much for taking the time to do this for all of us . 🤔😇🍻🍻🍻
Glad it was helpful!
Tim, thanks for some thought
Also some podcast direct from the range would be superb.
I’m going to impress all my friends at the range when they hear me talking about positive constipation, Thanks Erik!
😂😂😂😂😂
😂
What will you say when your friends ask "what is positive compensation"?
LOL
Positive constipation is when your bowels are all stuck negative constipation is called diarrhea
Get some.
I was a little late seeing this, but it was a good one!
Thanks, Erik!
This video is one you have to watch multiple times to wrap your head around it.
as soon as the primer strike occurs a small resonance will travel throughout the entire rifle, then the primer detonates/fires and a second resonance will occur, then the powder burn/detonates and a third resonance, and fourth the actual bullet down the barrel will cause resonance. The more dense an object is the faster a wave will travel through it. IE, hit metal with a hammer vs hit a foam pad with a hammer. Since a rifle is metal the vibration will travel down the barrel faster than the bullet. Vibration is sound. So the speed of sound in air which is less dense is 343 m/s, metal which is more dense is 5120m/s. m/s is meters per second. speed of sound is 1125 ft/sec. 5120 m/s is 16,797.9 ft/sec. A 308 bullet travels at 2800 ish ft/sec. So the vibration from detonation is traveling significantly faster than the bullet down the barrel. Basically, I'm trying to say that the wave/vibration which is sound, is traveling significantly faster down a metal barrel than the actual bullet is. So the barrel is then likely taking on its own harmonic as the metal molecules transfer the sound/vibration traveling through it. A question would be is the sound traveling through the metal enough to change or affect the bullet? The vibration IS way ahead of the bullet, 15 times faster. I would say 65k psi is enough pressure to cause a lot of vibration/sound. This is absolutely causing the barrel to "whip" .
Not sure if any of this makes sense, but I bought one of your runners and it's awesome. Well made, looks good, easy to use, works as advertised.
Thanks for doing these videos.
Think musical instrument tuners, by tightening up the strings the string vibrates faster... My belief is the tuner tightens up the vibration of the barrel making it more accurate. It vibrates faster so it vibrates less distance making the barrel more accurate. Less amplitude more accurate.
So I've done harmonic simulations with tuners attached to barrels. As they move the harmonic frequencies of all modes (longitudinal, horizontal vertical, etc) shift. Tuners do absolutely adjust horizontal but there will be a spot where they're primarily adjusting vertical and horizontal is tamed.
Everything else sounds spot on.
I want to Believe the "Positive Compensation" theory but I've got to see the Target first! Staying tuned for the follow-up on this topic. Erik, just my thoughts for how to test for positive compensation. Do the ladder test that Tim suggested to find a charge weight near the middle of the positive compensation ramp. Tim's example at 1:02, has a positive compensation charge of say 94.5 grains near the middle of the upward ramp, so go either side of this and load 10 rounds each at 93.5 and 95.5 (both still in the positive compensation range). Then shoot alternating shots at distance recording each shot velocity and position. May want to use something like 306/6.5CM so the amount of drop will be higher. See if you can shoot a horizontal line or do the shots tend to fall into group vertically based on charge weight and/or velocity?
What a coincidence. Yesterday I went to test a few loads for my new rifle and observed this phenomenon: starting with a certain load with increasing powder charge impact points on the target were stepping down. I was thinking maybe at some point I messed up the order I put seated rounds to the box... and today this vid appeared! Thanks Eric for starting this channel - I find it very informative and useful. Lots of great stuff here, I have recommeded your channels to people I shoot with and they also enjoy it . Greetings from Poland.
Thank you
Wow this is going to take a couple views.
Glad you liked it.
Please take the 1 shot ladder test (about 1:04) and repeat this with suitable charge for a system you feel is suitable for testing. Repeat the ladder 5 times and see if you can produce the same pattern all 5 times, or at least very similar results.
Definitely will have to watch this over and over to absorb all the info in this video. Great video. I too would like to see a follow up video or more on this subject.
Noted! Thank you.
With a .223, I would think 1/2 gr is enough to try this ?? Percentage wise a full grain is so much
Oh well, the cat is out of the bag now. Yes, we Aussies have been mucking around with Positive Compensation since Adam was a boy. But it's only half the story, and no - negative compensation is not the other; that's just the flip (negative) side of the same coin. The other half is ajusting and managing the amplitude of Positive Compensation using the barrel you have. But that's another story for for another time.
And again, there are a number of tools we can use, barrel tuners are just one option; number 3 on my list.
That said, the video is already nearly 2 hours long.
Well done Tim, you explained it well.
Thank you
You’re giving us Gold Erik
🙏🙏🙏🙏
Thank you
Sounds like this might be some of the same secret things that John Myers does, changing barrel length to find the "magic number", moving the tuner one way or the other depends on what he's seeing. Might not be what he calls it and might not be the whole story, but I'm better there's alot in common here. Who knows, maybe I'm way off... but sounds like it to me.
need a better thumb nail great podcast though
This man is quite smart, done his research
I agree.
First of all I watch almost every video in this series and hit the like button on all of them. I have definitely implemented things I've learned in some of them. I find this one frustrating because there's so much information presented as fact and no evidence to back it up. Not even exceptional performance by the person giving it out(which given his decades of shooting should exist if he's got some large advantage in tuning). There's never been a dead calm day? "My guns are the most accurate I just can't prove it on target". After hearing that and the "I've talked to a bunch of scientists and they all agree with me" multiple times it really makes it a lot harder to take him seriously. This is exactly the kind of language used by snake oil salesmen(I'm not accusing him of being one). There were also a bunch of statements he made that are in direct conflict to what you've claimed previously Eric. The two biggest being that tuners do not compensate for seating depth and that they only correct for vertical dispersion not a general shrinking of group size. He asserts that a tuner cannot, by itself, take an inaccurate gun and make it more accurate. He also says that a tuner needs to be custom made/weighted for the specific gun to work properly. One of the main things I've learned from these podcasts is that no one really understands what is actually happening and most of the experts have firm opinions that are in direct opposition to each other. To be clear I understand what he's saying and some of it does sound plausible. I'm not sure it matters enough to worry about. At the end of the day It should be very easy to prove that tuners work once and for all in a statistically relevant double blind test yet I haven't seen a single one. I'm not saying they don't work because I don't know for sure. I know they can change bullet impact location but I've yet to see someone shoot 25+ shots at the "good" setting, then make a small change to a "bad" setting to shoot 25 more, then switch it back to the good to prove that it's repeatable. Ideally with someone moving the tuner for them so they don't know which setting it is on. Let the gun cool and clean it to bare metal between tests followed by a few warm up shots before each string. If shooter fatigue becomes an issue you can run it twice on separate days in the opposite direction. Why not? Given the die hard tuner enthusiasts and all the companies that could benefit from showing this test working it seems likely that it has been tried and they did not get the results they wanted. Therefore we never saw the video. At the end of the day I appreciate the effort you're putting into making all the information you can available. I'm guessing that if we actually do figure out what really works best it will end up being more simple than we think because so many of the top shooters in every discipline use different ways to get there. That was quite the rant on my part!
I applaud Tim and Eric for their openness and willing to share information. It is not helpful to slander these well intentioned gentlemen by referring to them as snake oil salesmen. Why do you have to be so mean spirited with people that are trying to help you learn and become a better shooter? Time to take a look in the mirror my friend. Good luck with your cynicism….
@@timburke2785 I literally said I wasn't accusing him of being a snake oil salesmen in the same sentence you read those words. I said those type of statements are typical of people who are. Frankly, if you have a tuning method that makes your guns more accurate than others who don't use it you should be able to show that's true. Eric has won all those competitions without using these methods. I also said that I watch and "like" every video Eric puts out and that I appreciate and have used some information gained from them. There was no slandering involved. I was expressing frustration at the lack of data driven proof and that many of the videos featuring proven shooters directly contradict each others methods/claims. How is a new shooter supposed to determine who is right? There is nothing wrong with skepticism and asking for evidence. My intentions are in no way mean spirited. I would bet that if you asked Eric if he agreed with all the claims in the video he would say no and have his own reasons for feeling that way. It can just be counter productive and adversarial to point that out during the interview. I want everyone to shoot better and enjoy the various disciplines because I want to be able to compete with them for many years to come!
Believe the target. 😉
@@BelieveTheTarget Exactly.
Erik uses a tuner for different reasons then what Tim is teaching and talking about if you watch this podcast with a open mind you will truly understand that its proof how exit timing shows that tuners do work. And that barrels do move prior to bullets leaving the barrel. And that shifting weight on the barrel changes the rate and amplitude of movement. . Positive compensation is a fact of physics as a bullet goes where its directed and there are benifits to its use.
Would 1gr increments in smaller cartridge work just as well? Min Maks for typical 140gr bullet in 6.5 with H4350 is somewhere between 41.5gr and 36.5gr…However I dont know anyone that would run a 6.5 that slow…(36.5). To get 6 data points for the tune graph would one then perhaps start at 42.0gr (pressure depending) and work back in 1gr or perhaps 0.5gr to end at 39.5gr?
Yeah your podcasts are amazing!!
Glad you like them! Thank you.
This is so good, I'm watching it a second time and taking notes to do my own testing.
💪
I really want to see what (if anything) you could see with a phantom camera as far as barrel movement between the time the primer is hit to when the bullet exits the muzzle
Need believe the target on Apple Podcasts
I want to learn this
Thanks!
You bet!
Watched it twice and still not sure if I understand it.
Third time is the charm. 😁
Jaden’s (Hornady’s ballistician) head just exploded!
😂
I’ve been trying to find information pertaining to this exact subject for so long and trying to figure out some way to measure the compensation I was seeing with my 300 wm, from this I’ve learned measuring the angular departure is almost impossible to measure . His process makes it way simpler and makes complete sense. Awesome video!
Thank you
Curiosity piqued! Time for some testing. Big thanks to Erik and to Tim!
Our pleasure!
Shouldn't photographic evidence show barrel movement before or after bullet exit?
You can’t see .001 of an inch movement
Thank you for bringing us this information . Really love the podcast......and would love to have a few specific rimfire episodes 😀
Coming soon!
@BelieveTheTarget that is sweet....I'd especially like to hear Tim's input on tuners and rimfire....
@@BelieveTheTarget more specifically how to graph 22lr with tuner
Thank you for stopping to verify conformation of comprehension. It certainly helped. Good video.
Glad it was helpful!
haha to much thinking ...
Congratulations on the efforts overseas to you the team.
Good info as always.
Much appreciated!
Awesome
Thank you ever so much. This stuff is mind blowing! Its darn hard to explain though. Its basically tuning your load so that the barrel movement compensates for velocity variation.
Exactly.
@@BelieveTheTarget Thank you! it explains so well why a group with a good SD/ES may shoot poor and a group with a bad sd/es may shoot well. Another gremlin has been killed!
Thanks for sharing another great video! Out of curiosity, Tim was talking about weight a bit changing things which makes sense. How is it that “heavy” suppressors may or may not make a difference in POA/POI but a small barrel tuner can?
wow!
Wow! Great interview Erik! Love to see your test results on this one!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Erik hello. You mentioned in the video on your tuner the screws with the nylon tips to tighten the tuner. Is there a recommended setting for those screws in torque inch/lbs.? Thanks
Off the top of my head, I think it was 5 inch lbs.
@@BelieveTheTarget Excellent thank you.
I guess I am an idiot. I was semi-following, but not fully. But, maybe it is this gentleman’s delivery, I felt like I was listening to a used car salesman. I feel bad as I try to go into all of these with an open mind. But I just couldn’t pick up what this guy was puttin down. It just never seemed to make sense. Back to dragging knuckles in my own little world.
Some of us have been using tuners for many years and understand where Tim is coming from. not everyone uses a tuner for convergence or positive compensation
I think Tim sellers did an excellent job on explaining positive compensation
OMG. What we learn! Thanks Erik
Any time!
This stuff is so far over my head.
So now what barrel profiles and lengths help the most? I would think it’s caliber related as well and maybe even material? Stainless flexes differently than chrome-moly. I remember from the shooting Wherehouse story a 21 3/4” long barrel was a magic number. Does this testing and results change when it’s a semi-auto? My head hurts……….thanks 😂
Thank you both for the knowledge
Our pleasure!
Tuners work at 1/2, 1/3, 1/4 of the barrel length. Not just the end of the barrel.
String interments will demonstrate this if one touches the plucked string at 1/2, 1/3, 1/4.
My rubber donuts slid on my barrels at these places for $10.00 increase my firearms accuracy.
I’ve heard before that when you think about powder and loads you can have fps variations even measuring down to the kernel of powder. The reason can be because some powders per kernel have density differences and when you put that into a case of a certain size that there is going to be differences in the volume and that can lead to these variations. Honestly I think that volume plays a bigger role in fps than measuring by kernels. I’d like to see you, Erik, do a test on velocity dropping powder from a thrower and by measuring per kernel of powder and what the bigger ES is between the 2.
the best episode so far 👍
Thank you
59:29
Theory:
Seating depth changes extreme spread because it's changing burn time and psi before bullet leaves case and hits the rifling, with everything else equal. The usable case volume is changing with seat depth changes.
This extra volume creates a deadband or shock absorber, evens out the psi from slightly different charge weights. No gap magnifies any powder variation and e.s. goes up.
The static force (psi) to start the bullet moving into the chamber rifling is more than the kinetic force to keep it moving down the barrel. (Maybe?)
These 2 forces will balance smoother with the ideal headspace, and powder differences get evened out in the barrel instead of a hard initial hit that sends big harmonics and shocks the barrel, inconsistent es.
Just thinking out loud.
When a limbsaver ( rubber donut) is placed 1/3 of the barrel length from the muzzle, that third is 3 times the original barrel frequency. That will cause the front 1/3 of the barrel to move 3 times as fast and 1/3 the distance resulting in 1/3 the dispersion-smaller groups.
So I have an EC tuner brake on my rifle and because of what Tim has said regarding muzzle blast, I decided to swap it for a V2 tuner. But finding out they’re only made in one size means I would have to buy an adapter which would project past the crown. Is this correct?
This conversation is very informative from a scientific standpoint. Everything that you two have covered has an effect on our shooting, from a target standpoint. But and I am an old shooter at 73, most people man woman and child only want to know that there gun is going to hit that animal where they are aiming. I came from an era where we hunted to feed the family. To shoot twice was not acceptable. Personally, I am enthralled by this conversation, not that it will affect me, but hopefully have a better understanding of the results when I do shoot. This is my first foray into long range and realize that this old dawg can still learn. Thanks very much!
So if positive compensation is true, then would load testing at 100 yards be better than long range? I would assume that would mean your velocity variance would appear at 100 yards more than long range
So we’ve developed a load for minimum ES/SD which gives us an optimum velocity.
The question is how do we set up a tuner to give us positive competition centred about this optimum velocity? Or is this not relevant?
I tried this, it works, pos comp
This is so fascinating!
Thank you
Crazy, I’ve been watching poi shifts in my tests going lower with higher velocity it was confusing me
My brain hurts and I still have 30 minutes left in this video.
You guys cost me a lot of money this month chasing small groups. I was ignorant but now I'm poor.
🤘🏻
Great info Erik!
Thank you
Sounds like this concept goes some distance to explain why the old Canadian High Power competitors claimed that really good individual Lee Enfield rifles could to a large degree self compensate for different ammo. Lots of flex in that action!
For a big 30 cal the ti pro 5 side baffle hard to beat. Makes a 300 rum a kitty
Does Tim Sellars remind anyone of Jim Varney from Hey Vern, it’s Ernest?
27:50 if the slow bullet would allegedly hit .7 higher at 100 to hit level at 1000…. What direction was the wind from? Aerodynamic jump? I think that should have been mentioned. But then I guess the horizontal would have been off as well? Heck idk
I would image there was not enough wind to jump the bullet, or he wouldn’t of used the data
Best reloading explanation on the internet for tuning a load to date I've seen 👌 brilliant thankyou Erik and Tim cheers from 🇦🇺
Glad you enjoyed it
Is this the same Tim that makes them cartridge caddy bullets holder things
No
Is anyone connecting transducers to the barrel, and reading the data from a digital storage oscilloscope?
Mind blown…
Barrel movement makes sense, why do we use soft barrels? Why not have a barrel that’s heat treated? Have the barrel like 50 Rockwell “not the chamber area” just the rest of the barrel. Anything that’s harder will flex less right?
Barrel deflections depend upon its Modulus of Elasticity which is about 29,000,000 psi for most steels. Hardening by heat treating does not change this property.
I was thinking of a hot barrel about 20 minutes in, and I stuck it out until the end only to hear the conclusion about hot barrels, I couldn't help but watch the whole thing, great topic.
Thank you
This is the most informative on the PC topic I’ve ever seen or heard. This was gotta be at the top of Believe The Target”!!! Thanks Tim and Erik
Glad it was helpful!
If a man ever quits learning he's done.
Do you use 1 grain difference even I a smaller cartridge like .223 or 6BR ?
No. Find a load that gives about 30-40 fps difference.
I love the word “IF”. The best response, to the word if, is, but you didn’t. I love using the phrase if grandma did not die, she would still be alive. And my personal favorite is, IF my sister had a dick, she would be my brother!
Watching for the forth time...I'm a little slower than you Erik😁
😂
Who makes a barrel that doesn't bend?
I had to watch this twice but holy crap!!! I run EC tuner brakes on all my target rifles and on my main hunting rifle. Love them btw! I’m totally going to test this theory out. It just makes good sense to me. Thanks for doing all of this. In the last 2 years you have completely changed the way I think about how I reload and shoot. I actually did a complete overhaul on my reloading shop so I could copy what you do. Again THANK YOU so very much for helping us get better!!
As an electrician you need to study ac current and frequency. The graph is the same now you just need to find your Hertz… 60Hz if your in the US 50hz in the UK
I think my thought was confirmed. You have to get in the ballpark with seating depth first...then finalize with a tuner. I have EC's tuner/ brake and it's like driving a Ferrari to go a mile vs a fancy pair of running shoes.
So I was thinking, if the graph pattern is true for different weight charges, and a tunner will shift this pattern, could you produce this pattern by simply staying at one charge and moving the tuner between shots.
Downright brilliant......please accept his offer to return Erik....thank you.
After watching this twice I finally got it. So, I went out and tested it. Tim's onto something here. The visual presentation of shots on paper matches what he talked about, but most importantly, your V2 tuner responded to the changes as he said it would! From my small sample, It seems to work in spades!
Why does everyone believe that the barrel only goes up and down, and not any other direction....
Im ghessing it goes in all directions aswell but if you have weight (tuner)at the end of the barrel there is a loaded force pulling downward until the recoil kicks in and shifts the weight making the end of the barrel move up and putting it into a up and down wobble. 😅 ive never used a tuner so this is a stab in the dark
@@Jasonschmidtschannel You are probably right to some extent, but in general w/o a tuner people still believe it only goes up and down. Those "flyers" on the waterline right to left are not wind in all cases.
It dampens the vibes
My brain is smoking 😮