This time period is just so much more interesting in the Expanded Universe than it is in Canon. It took almost 20 years for the New Republic to beat a splintered Empire, whereas in Canon the Empire literally just dies 1 year after and don't even get me started on stupid Operation Cinder. The world building in Legends meanwhile was just top notch, between the different Imperial warlords, the various well written books and the like, it all felt so real.
It actually makes sense when you think about it. Operation: Cinder and the contingency was designed to specifically destroy the Empire and restart it from scratch. Plus look at real world history. How long did it take for the Nazi party to get destroyed after the death of Hitler.
Legends was pretty bad overall IMO. There were gems (most notably Timothy Zahn's books) but the majority were mediocre. What made us like them was that we wanted more Star Wars and they at least built up the world and expanded it, gave us actual stories in a universe we loved while mostly staying true to the movies and what was portrayed in them. Disney, on the other hand, decided to continuously and violently "fertilize" with bad ideas and focus on the money while assigning primarily talentless and incompetent people to spearhead the effort. Legends weren't great but they were miles above Disney puts out. Even Zahn's new books, while better written (as he has improved as an author over literal decades) just don't have that same spark because they are so hampered in by the horrendous new cannon.
@wellendowedplatypus902... I cant agree. While there was a lot of weired and bad stuff. Especially in the beginning, we had also a lot of great stories, not only by Zahn (even through they are mostly outstanding). Furthermore I also cant agree on Zahn getting better at writing. I even feel its gone worse a lot. I read his new Thrawn trilogy and everythimg feels less. Short er simpler sentences, more told than shown by actions, everything feels shallow to me. But I guess thats al taste.
The old EU had its problems... but I think in an overall, general sense, it handled the fallout from the Battle of Endor better. It just made more sense for the New Republic to struggle, and Imperial remnants to give them trouble, even hold on to sectors of the galaxy, for decades after.
they should have modeled the fall of the Empire based on the Fall of the USSR and the Eastern Block. The Emperor dead, and without strong leadership, a more moderate political leader (who was not even officially in power but a major Imperial beurocrat who held high level cabinet position found themselves in charge) Make them like a "Gorbachev" like character who thought the Empire could be politically reformed to "turn back the clock" before the Galactic Civil War escalated after the Destruction of Alderan and the Battle of Yavin. However his policies only lasted a few months during negotiators with the Rebel Aliance. As these negotiations took place he was assassinated, and a second "Civil War" took place between top Imperial Leadership. This weakened the Empire to the point where most populated planets could simply declare independence or Join the "New Republic"
I really like the splintering of the Empire in Legends into various independent Warlords that only nominally still held allegiance to the Imperial Government under the Ruling Council until full scale civil war broke out after Palpy IIs Death with the Remainder of the Empire uniting under Daala/Pellaeon, finally establishing itself as secondary power in the Galaxy and later becoming relevant again. But Canon is basically "Oh no, the Emperor is gone, let us all charge into suicide attacks and then we surrender one year after Endor" with the First Order and Palpy IIs Faction somehow having a similiar strength to the Empire at the height of its power.
@@emilyg1239 The whole thing with the First Order is just strange. They are a remnant faction of radicalized Imperials (which would be a fine idea on its own in my opinion), led mostly by people that are secretly part of another Remnant Faction, thats also even more radical. And both have a similiar military strength as the original Empire... somehow.
@@rps1276Yeah. I generally enjoyed the Aftermath trilogy with how they set up the Imperial retreat to the unknown regions, so then it kinda makes sense why the Final Order has a bunch of retrofitted Imperial-class SDs. But, after Jakku, the First Order still shouldn't have had any power level even comparable to the Empire at Endor.
Yeah, the new canon explanation is stupid. Even in Legends, the Empire was set up by Palpatine to not function without him, but it breaking down into splinter groups and warlords fighting for control/power until ultimately becoming resistance movements against the new legitimate government is far more realistic. We’ve seen things like that happen in real life.
I've always considered "Heir to the Empire" to refer to four plot threads in the Thrawn trilogy- Thrawn being the most dominant warlord left in the remnant Imperial forces, Leia being considered Vader's heir by the Noghri, Joruus C'Baoth attempting to become a new Palpatine and commandeer the Empire, and even Mara Jade Hand of the Emperor navigating her new post-Palpy life.
In a meta sense, it's also important to remember who the only Imperial PoV character is: it isn't Thrawn, it's Pellaeon, and where did he ultimately finish his career? Thrawn is the title character, but the series ultimately ended up being Pellaeon's origin story.
All the Thrawn Trilogy Books are titled with double ententes. Dark Force Rising initially makes you think it's about, well, you know, the dark side of the force. And then you realize it's also about a fleet of ships with that same name. The Last Command makes you think of an ultimate, last-resort battle, or the last stand that someone has. But it finishes with Mara finally fulfilling the last command that she was given. It's really brilliant title work on Zahn's part.
@@alexandkarashrum5791 His other books have this as well. _Specter of the Past_ is about Thrawn's return, but it's also very much all the ugliness of the Galactic Civil War still looming over the cast's head, while _Vision of the Future_ deals with Thrawn's own final gambit, but also a world where the New Republic and Empire coexist. Even _Survivor's Quest_ is, in a meta sense about Jinzler coming to terms with the deaths of his sister and parents, but then there's the plot twist _Outbound Flight_ actually had survivors at the end and it becomes a quest to save them. They don't make 'em like him anymore.
The NuCanon post-Endor timeline is a big joke basically right off the bat. Honestly crazy that they deliberately set up their setting in such a way that nothing of note happens for 30 years - the combined fleets, forces, and passions of the two main belligerents just cease to exist after the battle of Jakku, one sorry year after Endor.
It’s insane. I would like an animated show set in that year just showing all the massive battles that mousy have happened. I don’t think it’s impossible for the empire to fall that quickly if the rebels did everything perfectly and the empire did everything wrong.
I always thought they were saving that 30 year space for animated shows or spin off movies, why else would you leave such a massive gap in the timeline especially if the new sequel trilogy was going to nostalgia bait us so hard that the time jump was pointless
Everything is just to justify the Disney trilogy’s events while ‘satisfying’ the fanbase by giving them anything that would fill the spaces, in between, that their predecessors used to fill in well, so often. How Thrawn and Anakin met is an example of what we _usually_ get: An oddly brief and basic story with an occasional reference here or there, very straightforward and shallow that doesn’t really go anywhere at all before they go their separate ways.
I thought a bunch of stuff did happen? Aren't there currently a bunch of shows rn about all the stuff that happened after endor? And like, at least one of the battlefront games?
Star wars Legends still exists ,! For the New Republic! (Also dave filoni and jhon faverou? Did a good job , andor , mando , bad batch are good too)... Fuck sequels
I think there's a really interesting point where the Empire is basically gone and it's after Crimson Empire 2 when the Ruling Council is arrested and "Emperor" Xandel Carrivus is killed. At that point it's just the Pentastar Alignment, Hethrir's Empire Reborn, some scattered Moffs and local Governors, the reduced Federated Teradoc Union territory in the Mid Rim, the Deep Core Warlords, and a few roaming Admirals. There just isn't a proper Empire at this point and it's all people in it for themselves, struggling to hold onto their territories and fleets. For all her faults Daala knew that you had to cut some of the fat and quell some dissident voices to get the Empire back together.
It's such a cool setting, honestly. I hate the First Order and Kylo Ren, the Imperial warlords are such a fun idea and Thrawn effectively reuniting them in the end. Much more engaging than the vague first order structure and scale as well
@@bighatastrea I still think a series _just_ following Pellaeon's career would be fascinating. He was the one genuinely good man in the Empire, and the fact he refused to seize power for himself so many times, because it wasn't in his character, despite it arguably having been in the Empire's best interests to do so, is extremely compelling. This is a very human character with self-doubts and flaws who grows from always being someone else's second, to finally being the last Admiral standing, leading the Empire back from the brink and ultimately saving the Galaxy from the Yuuzhan Vong. Give me that over Emo Ryn and General Incompetence any day.
Even though Daala was a joke of a tactician, and an even worse politician, she was the right person at the time to unite the Imperials because when you're dealing with so many super ambitious, egotistical, and outright dangerous people all fighting for power, you have to beat 'em all down. However, once she became Chief of State of the Galactic Alliance (still shocking how she even ended up there), she kept that same mentality and basically tore everything apart.
@@theevildrummingsithlord1492 I dunno, he finally was in the position to stand up to the Sith, even if it cost him his life. He died as he lived. I think that's pretty fitting.
There are so many really cool setpieces we will just never see. _Hand of Thrawn,_ which isn't even the best Zahn series, is still better than anything not featuring Cassian Andor we've seen from the current continuity.
Palpatine: *Dies at Endor* *Years later* Palpatine: I've returned, with an even better empi- *Dies with the Dark Empire* *More years come by* Palpatine: I've somehow returned, with another empi- *gets killed on Exogul* *Even more years later* Palpatine: ...Yeah I'm getting tired of this crap, STOP BRINGING ME BACK DISNEY!!!
I would love a video about the Star destroyer "the Hammer" from the old DOS TIE fighter game. I remember the relief i felt (even as a child) when it jumped in system while I was outnumbered and half my squadron was destroyed
I think canon post Endor could have been really interesting but it’s a little short and operation cinder is a really interesting idea but they made it too blatantly evil with battlefront 2.
Eh, fascism IS blatantly evil, and in terms of strategy it's a sound plan. Sow absolute chaos and confusion so no one quite knows what's going on anymore. Putin does a similar thing IRL but with online misinformation rather than the destruction of a planet's surface 😂
It was the first non-Zahn, non-Prequels era EU book I read, and I also enjoyed it. _Flurry_ is still one of my favorite ships, I love the idea of assault carriers in space warfare. I have a Micromachine set based on the novel; it had a Ssi-ruuk, Gaeriel Captison, and the Ssi-ruuvi flagship _Shriwirr,_ although I ended up with the toys a long time before I'd read the novel.
If the Emperor dies and the Death Star is destroyed, why stay at Endor? The only thing of interest would be the rebel fleet, and if the Empire returns, all they'd succeed in doing is party crashing the Ewoks, because there's no way the rebels are going to stick around any longer than they have to.
It is still crazy to me that the rebels never had a true plan once they defeated the empire. Like what did they think was going to happen once the Empire, which did keep order, far better than the old Republic, came crashing down? Ofc powerful systems and species would take advantage of that.
They wanted to restore the old Republic. I like how some parts of Star Wars (both in Legends and canon) have illustrated the inequality that existed in the old Republic. The old Republic was of the Core Worlds, by the Core Worlds, for the Core Worlds, and no one else really mattered. The Rebel Alliance, we see, was ultimately founded and ran by individuals from the Core Worlds elites, so they wanted to restore the government that worked for them. Beyond that, they never really had a plan for creating a stable government to effectively replace the Empire and didn’t seem to conceptualize the need.
My head canon is that the true contingency plan was for the Imperial Remnant to flee into the Unknown Regions and focus on resurrecting the Emperor undisturbed. Operation Cinder was merely a diversion to cover this, since the Rebels would be more concerned with defending worlds than noticing imperial fleets disappearing. This was kept on a need to know basis, so those carrying out Cinder truly believed it was Palpatine’s final order. However, such massive amounts of resources could not be relocated without drawing suspicion and the Rebels still began to notice. To preserve the secrecy of the contingency, the decision was made to sacrifice a significant portion of the Remnant at Jakku as a mock “last stand”. The amount of resources at Jakku would not only make it appear to be the Empire’s final bastion, but would also cause the Rebels to assume Jakku was where the missing Imperials had fled to. The gamble worked, and the majority of the Remnant was able to successfully escape.
A common misconception is the idea that the Emperor used battle meditation at Endor. It was just a theory Thrawn had, and not what actually happened. Luke and Darth Vader had the Emperor's full attention, making battle meditation impossible. That's assuming that the Emperor could use battle meditation, a rare ability, coinciding his already unique strength in the Force.
Palpatine can use battle meditation, it's confirmed in: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia Heir to the Empire and Dark Force rising source books Now, whether he used it or not during Endor is another story. As the other commenter says, one source says a grand Admiral was doing it. However, only one source says that (An issue of star wars insider) as far as I know, similarly only one source also outright says Palpatine was doing it (One of the source books I mentioned, don't recall which) so whichever you opt to go with depends on what you view as being a more valid source. There is no misconception, just conflicting information (It's also worth mentioning that Palpatine is the same dude who kept Byss, a planet with a population in the billions, under his mental control passively while doing a bunch of other shit) so it's not exactly outside the realm of possibility, especially when you consider the dude was just sitting/standing and watching events for the bulk of the encounter
I don't think a lot of things were outside of the realm of the old man's potential or influence except for what he didn't care about - like slavery or the outer rim. At least not until the fight at the very end, which took a lot of his attention
I always felt like the idea of Palpatine using battle meditation during the Battle of Endor really didn’t fit the depiction of the battle in Episode VI. During the battle, the Imperials lost multiple ships for every rebel they took down, and even lost their most important command ships. All while vastly outnumbering the rebels, and benefitting from the Death Star’s firepower. Does that sound like the performance of a faction benefiting from battle meditation? Not to me. I think the battle meditation idea was something that author Timothy Zahn came up with to explain why the imperial fleet fled rather than staying to finish off the rebels with their obviously superior numbers. The idea being “it was such a shock when the battle meditation stopped that they panicked”. This idea is totally unnecessary. Seeing the Executor and Death Star II blow up in quick succession, The Emperor believed dead and a fractured command structure unable to agree or coordinate is more than enough pressure to cause one or two ship captains to waver and break. And as they fled, the imperial numbers advantage got thinner, making other captains more likely to rout as well. A few captains losing their cool could easily have precipitated a chain rout at that point.
You've mentioned the Imperial disarray at Endor a lot, but you never mention the Grand Admirals present there, particularly Teshik who refused Pellaeon's retreat order and kept fighting.
He's talked about Teshik years ago, he specifically mentions his trial (which comes from _The Essential Guide to Warfare_ and the excerpt which he reads being the main reason I purchased it).
Have you considered doing videos about specific characters and their role in the galaxy? E.g. when you talked about the imperial remnant I was thinking about maybe a video about Jagged Fel and how he rose to power (was rather unique)
How did a numerically overwhelming force of the Empire, supported by Palpatine, loose to a bunch of rebels? It made sense that the Rebels held out while the Empires' ships were just trying to keep them from escaping with a few fighters harassing them to keep them on their toes, but after that the Rebel fleet should have crumbled, and fast.
The Empire’s command structure is to blame. It was a system where one central commander essentially micromanaged their forces. Once the commander was eliminated, the fleet became fragmented and began freelancing. To make things worse, many key figures were promoted because of politics and nepotism, rather than aptitude, so a lot of them wanted the glory of being the “hero” that rose from the ashes. Also, seeing the Death Star explode and knowing your emperor was on it was a major morale killer.
This was my first Star Wars book. Read it at least 15-20 years ago and all I can remember was Anakin apologizing to Leia and 3PO in a stormtrooper suit.
The scene with Anakin is heartbreaking, especially given that's the only time Leia spoke with her father. As the _New Essential Chronology_ puts it, Anakin appeared to his son and descendants a few times; he never appeared to his daughter again.
How is that any different in this regard? There too the Empire just gets back together, which defines the post-RotJ era. Oh wait, the Empire actually wins in that one.
The novel makes it clear how come Nerius knew about the death-star in the neighboring Endor system: his system had been manufacturing parts for that and other Imperial bases, and Palpatine had placed a priority emphasis on the battestation- those can take many *years* to build in that, so the project had ample time to go badly wrong, especially with the empire's inept socioeconomic system that's a mix of merchantilism and socialism in the *worst* way imaginable combined with slave-labor gulags- it is a wonder they get *anything* manufactured that they need at all! Theirs is *THE* most inefficient model imaginable for nationstate production of a defense force! It simply happens that the Bakura system was being fully overrun in mere *hours* and he had to send an immediate distress call about the invasion- or their alien foes, who were Palpatine's masters no less, would have a full-blown beachhead in the region and a vast labor-base to complete their enslavement of humanity and their rivals in an ongoing cold war of sorts: the Chiss- yeah, it was *Thrawn's* people who ended up intervening in the conflict- as a "Strike NOW or be enslaved literally forever!" kind of appeal in their senatorial chambers of a sort.
When I watched the original video I didn't catch the mistake, not because I was unfamiliar with the timeline but rather because my mind just kind of unconsciously corrected Yavin to Endor, kind of like when you read over a typo and don't catch it.
Another good example of the direct control would be joruus sabaoth though that was more direct mind control rather then battle meditation.... esp when you think about the damage thats done long term
Yeah idk I don’t like battle meditation - that’s way too powerful and we’ve seen how sometimes the Imperials are incompetent even with the influence of Palpatunes
One thing I love about Eck is, not only does he accept he was wrong in something, but he starts the video out with it, instead of putting it at the very end out of shame. Good on you 👏
Just FYI Legends was cannon long before Disney came around and decided to pull a dictator move and change history. I feel like Disney is Oceania from 1983
What was going on was that Palpatine was directly under the thumb of their envoy, Dev Sibwarra; who learned of it immediately and told his masters that their deal was off- so they began a full-scale annexation of their former vassal's areas- hence what the Truce at Bakura really is is best defined as a war for independence against Hell itself about a foreign takeover. One of Lucas's preferred touches in stories is a back-door secret takeover of a region- he himself, according to the author of the New Jedi Order series; basically cashiered the Ssi-Ruuk and that brought in the Yuuzhan Vong.
@@AJadedLizard No? of course he was; he was his conduit to Palpatine's Ssi-Ruuk Masters via the deal Palpatine struck; and it was Sibwarra who informed them that the deal was off: study the novel, and the sourcebook- you'll see just how wrong you are on that.
@@chissstardestroyer No? Palaptine and the Empire were never under the thumb of anyone. They had an alliance with the Ssi-ruuvi, nothing more. Try to stick to words you know the meaning of next time.
Truce of Bakura was my first Star Wars book, I watched Star wars, but until I read that book I wouldn't call myself a fan. I reread that book so many times, I love it.
Aside from the few on the Death Star, given the size of the Imperial force present, there were likely 4-5 upper tier admirals and probably a dozen lower tier admirals just in the fleet. Legends figures show 1 Executor class SSD, 2 battlecruisers, 38 star destroyers of various classes, and a few dozen smaller capital ships. So there were multiple different units/fleets/squadrons under command of various rear admirals or vice admirals, then grouped together under (full) admirals, and ultimately under command of Fleet Admiral Piett who was apparently the overall commander of the fleet. Grand Admirals Declann, Makati, Teshik, and Takel were stationed on the Death Star for whatever reason, but exerted no command of the fleet other than Declann’s battle meditation. Declann went down with the Death Star, but the others escaped. Makati used the chaos to escape, Takel was high as a kite and also escaped the area, and only Teshik attempted to rally the fleet. Yet why him being unable to rally the fleet and exert control despite being now the highest ranking person present is beyond me. If you look at real-world naval battles you’d see a similar structure. A battle fleet might be made up of 4 aircraft carriers and a ton of smaller ships. Yet the composition itself would be 1 aircraft carrier and its attached escorts grouped into a “carrier battle group (CVBG)”. That would be under command of a rear admiral. Two CVBGs would be grouped into “carrier task force 1” under command of a vice admiral. Any groups of warships not directly attached to the aircraft carriers would have a similar setup such as several cruisers grouped into “cruiser squadron 1” under a rear admiral, with 2-3 cruiser squadrons in “cruiser division 1” under a vice admiral. The whole shebang would be under the overall command of an admiral or fleet admiral. Recommended span of control is 3-10 with the optimal number being 5, so the admiral in overall command only has to give his orders to a few admirals underneath in order to control the entire fleet.
The Imperial Civil War is still my favorite era in the franchise. Taken as a whole, it's an epic rivaling something like _A Song of Ice and Fire:_ single series, told from the points of view of the various major players, would be great. The conniving Isard, the viscous Dala, the arrogant Zsinj, and the noble Pellaeon, all vying for power while the New Republic slowly erodes what's left of their nation. I've always loved the Pellaeon, out of everyone at Endor after _Executor_ was lost, had the foresight to realize the battle was over. From what I remember he wasn't even the ranking officer at the time, but in the chaos of the Emperor's death, he was the only person thinking clearly. The fact Pellaeon wasn't the kind of man to seek power for himself, the fact he immediately sought to cede control of the Fleet to _anyone_ who legitimately could've taken it, is also compelling to me: given how dastardly and backstabbing the Empire was, the fact he was so willing to do the right thing was always fascinating. The fact he's left in the exact same position at Bilbringi. "It would take a genius to salvage this. It would take Thrawn, and Pellaeon knew he was no Thrawn."
Just think, Pelleaon could've stood down and let another Admiral lead the fleet. We could've had the Chronicles of Prittick. That's the real failure of the expanded universe right there.
Pellaeon also could've stepped up and taken control; in the state the Empire was in, the rank and file would've followed him, but Pellaeon never saw himself as a leader, even though the Empire ultimately owed its continued existence to him. Had it been anyone else, they'd have fought on to annihilation.
So wait, the First Order *isn't* supposed to be the "reimagined" Imperial Remnant? I figured that was Disney just trying to get around having to pay either Zahn or Stackpole (whichever one of them came up with it first).
I always pronounced that crazy b*tch's name as "Yee-sahn Eye-Sard". The "warlord" era was handled poorly IMO, but then again I did not like the Vong Arc. They could have done so much more with the Ssi-Ruuvi or the Yevetha in the deep core instead of creating a deus ex machina in the Vong, but I'm apparently in the minority here. I *hate* the idea of operation cinder. No officer with ANY sense would cut out their own supply system. Once ol' palpy was dead, fuckit, do your own thing- that's what the warlords did anyway. I would have liked to see the adventures of all the other Grand Admirals instead of the books basically catching and killing (or jailing) them offscreen.
Ysanne is actually a real-world name, of similar origin to Yvonne which people are likely more familiar with. It's basically pronounced 'is-anne', so closer to what you posted than how it was said in the video.
That’s not comparable at all. Legends had Luke set up his temple on Yavin, so any Jedi stories took place on Yavin. That makes sense and there’s a reason for it.
It is interesting how "Alliance to Restore the Republic" was never once said in the original trilogy, and the original plan for the end of the trilogy was Leia becoming the Queen of the Empire.
I mean it makes a lot more sense than canon. The Empire had millions of star systems and ships under its command. And while they may have broken apart and fought one another they were still a huge threat to The New Republic to the point I took them 6 years to even get to a point where they became a major galactic power. And it took another 9 years to end the war completely. Meanwhile Canon says this all happened in one year which just makes zero sense on a scale this large. It’s not a planetary war it’s a galactic war. If the empire hadn’t collapsed into factions it could have lasted even longer.
The Galactic Civil War can be a bit misleading. What the Rebels did was an insurrection not really a Civil War and other than a few key victories they didn't inflict that much damage on the Empire. Even destroying both Death Stars while flashy didn't really affect the Imperial Navy that much. The only significant victory the Rebels accomplished was the death of the Emperor. But even that wouldn't have taken down the Empire if the Emperor wasn't such a selfish git and actually prepared a line of succession. The Real Galactic Civil War didn't start until after Palpatine Died when all the various Imperial Warlords tore the Empire apart with infighting and didn't end until the New Republic signed a peace treaty with the Imperial Remnant. The losses the Empire suffered against the Rebels was a drop in the bucket compared to what they lost fighting each other.
I always felt like the idea of Palpatine using battle meditation during the Battle of Endor really didn’t fit the depiction of the battle in Episode VI. During the battle, the Imperials lost multiple ships for every rebel they took down, and even lost their most important command ships. All while vastly outnumbering the rebels, and benefitting from the Death Star’s firepower. Does that sound like the performance of a faction benefiting from battle meditation? Not to me. It kind of implies that the baseline imperial performance is utterly abysmal, to an absurd degree. I think the battle meditation idea was something that author Timothy Zahn came up with to explain why the imperial fleet fled rather than staying to finish off the rebels with their obviously superior numbers. The idea being “it was such a shock when the battle meditation stopped that they panicked”. This idea is totally unnecessary. Seeing the Executor and Death Star II blow up in quick succession, The Emperor believed dead and a fractured command structure unable to agree or coordinate is more than enough pressure to cause one or two ship captains to waver and break. And as they fled, the imperial numbers advantage got thinner, making other captains more likely to rout as well. A few captains losing their cool could easily have precipitated a chain rout at that point.
Originally it was Palpatine (as Thrawn states in Heir to the Empire) then some time later they changed it so some other guy had been doing the Battle Meditation, and Palpatine's death shocked him into stopping or something. Not 100% sure why they did that
I was honestly very disappointed that all the work authors were putting in to work with eachother and continue the story was just wiped away when Disney bought it. I was very in to all of those books. Truce at Bakura Courtship of Princess Leia Heir to the empire Awesome books and the list goes on. At one time I had an intrinsic knowledge of everything star wars, now i can't keep track of any of it. 7 8 and 9 didn't help things. Those movies were trash, in my opinion.
Worst part and character of the lengends timeline is Daala. She was the most incompetent character that kept failing “upward” and ended up getting all the toys in the end. I still have no clue why the writers thought she was so awesome.
At the risk of complaining just to complain, this is an element of the new canon I really don't like; all the big question marks it leaves around, and lore it does establish, but without building up to it. I sometimes think that, despite Disney owning Marvel, Star Wars continuity was the testing ground that the Arkham games Riddler used for all of his sprinkled around trophies, because we got the films, whether you like them or loathe them, and we were just left sitting with "Who is THAT? What does this mean? How did we get here?" Way back in tbe beginning, it worked, as Star Wars wasn't an established verse, and then people even did get the chance to fill it in, but then Disney burned that, to establish their own iteration, and then seemed to forget that a lot of us were used to knowing the lore; who was what was where, and what thinfs meant, but then didn't quickly fill in the gaps. That doesn't work for an IP that had been filled in, and had a lot of nerds/geeks who prided ourselves on the scope of trivia we thought we knew, only to be told that was all gone, and woyld be replaced...eventually, whether with good lore, or bad. I remember watching Force Awakens, and saying "who is this guy?" several times. They established Kylo Ren as important, but not why. Lor Van Tekka seemed very important; you don't just hire Max Von Sydow for nothing, and then he's dead in minutes. I don't think they even say his name; I had to Google it, and it felt weird. Then we know Poe died...until they realized he would fill seats, so they off-screen retcon him, and they went on to feel so disjointed, and stunted. It felt worse than Legends, where we DID KNOW that various books were written by different authors, who didn't always feel beholden to what their unofficial oredecessors had written; this was all under the same umbrella that was Disney Star Wars. Who was Ren? His Knights? This Supreme Leader? Plasma? What happened to...and it just felt so strange that all these gaps didn't bother the onetime great story writers at Disney? They didn't even do a good job of saying "we WILL get all this to you"; years later, I STILL don't know sone of these answers, because they have re-connect, and rethought, so much stuff. Where was Jakku? Why did it matter? Who...and I'm not going to keep complaining, but it's one of the big issues I had with DSW, even if I try to ignore that they boxed up the lore I did know; they didn't replace it with decent content, or sometimes replace it at all, and Star Wars isn't a new IP, or even a total reimahining of an existing one.
Well, the command ship of Death Squadron was obliterated when an A-wing rammed the bridge of the executor and the ship spun out of control ramming the Deathstar, thus demolishing the bulk of that fleet's combat power. Plus with the imperial fleet falling apart, at that time, the Rebels were NOT taking any prisoners; any imperial vessels or units that surrendered were promptly subjected to "Tarleton's Quarter" and eradicated, this had the effect of a full-blown collapse of their military's will to resist as they learned that to even have *been* ever in the uniform, willingly or not, was now a death-penalty war-crime even if it was mandatory and/or legitimate; the results were that the empire's best units went to pot running for their lives in the end as they knew not *if* but *when* they were found they'd be shot dead- and a much *worse* fate awaited them in the custody of Palpatine's Reptavian masters, the Ssi-ruuk; that being literal eternal slavery regardless of the condition of their souls, and if they *did* leave their posts: they'd be shot dead by the commissars upon arriving home for abandoning their posts- the result was a complete collapse as is certain absolutely if you've got any sort of top-down system! They did storm and capture two full star destroyers in the fallout, but they were NOT accepting any survivors; no: this was to be a complete eradication of the entire command capacity of the empire- rip the *brains* out of their state and destroy it completely; make as brutal an example of the legitimate government as possible and then some- and prove to *everybody* that if you served in uniform of a valid state: you are forever a war-criminal and will be shot dead for that act of obedience to justified authority and be completely destroyed in the process!
People think you misspoke again, but really they don't know the deep lore. The Battle of Yavin never ended. So of course the battle "was still continuing" after Palp's death.
Bro really said it again at 1:27 💀
He really loves the battle of yavin ig😂
@@CJones_27 To his defense, the literal timeline of the SW universe revolves around the Battle of Yavin so it's understandable lol.
Nah, he had to have done that on purpose, right?
Eck didn't misspeak again.
He's just enormously based.
Gets called out by his editor.
Just says it again to send home his point.
(Necessary 2024 disclaimer: It's a joke.)
You got Yavin on the brain... You misspoke again. At least you caught it in editing.
Top Star wars battle:
5. The Battle of Yavin
4. The Battle of Yavin
3. The Battle of Yavin
2. The Battle of Yavin
1. The Battle of Yavin
I think you forgot the battle of Yavin
@@CoolLink-Zelda My bad
The battle of Nivay...😏
Don't forget about Death Star battle over Yavin!
This time period is just so much more interesting in the Expanded Universe than it is in Canon. It took almost 20 years for the New Republic to beat a splintered Empire, whereas in Canon the Empire literally just dies 1 year after and don't even get me started on stupid Operation Cinder. The world building in Legends meanwhile was just top notch, between the different Imperial warlords, the various well written books and the like, it all felt so real.
It actually makes sense when you think about it. Operation: Cinder and the contingency was designed to specifically destroy the Empire and restart it from scratch.
Plus look at real world history. How long did it take for the Nazi party to get destroyed after the death of Hitler.
Legends was pretty bad overall IMO. There were gems (most notably Timothy Zahn's books) but the majority were mediocre. What made us like them was that we wanted more Star Wars and they at least built up the world and expanded it, gave us actual stories in a universe we loved while mostly staying true to the movies and what was portrayed in them.
Disney, on the other hand, decided to continuously and violently "fertilize" with bad ideas and focus on the money while assigning primarily talentless and incompetent people to spearhead the effort.
Legends weren't great but they were miles above Disney puts out. Even Zahn's new books, while better written (as he has improved as an author over literal decades) just don't have that same spark because they are so hampered in by the horrendous new cannon.
@wellendowedplatypus902... I cant agree. While there was a lot of weired and bad stuff. Especially in the beginning, we had also a lot of great stories, not only by Zahn (even through they are mostly outstanding).
Furthermore I also cant agree on Zahn getting better at writing. I even feel its gone worse a lot. I read his new Thrawn trilogy and everythimg feels less. Short er simpler sentences, more told than shown by actions, everything feels shallow to me. But I guess thats al taste.
SO much more interesting. I can't believe Canon whiffed it so damn hard. Empire falling in a YEAR, Christ alive it's so dumb.
The old EU had its problems... but I think in an overall, general sense, it handled the fallout from the Battle of Endor better. It just made more sense for the New Republic to struggle, and Imperial remnants to give them trouble, even hold on to sectors of the galaxy, for decades after.
Lol said after the battle of Yavin again. Editor caught it though
they should have modeled the fall of the Empire based on the Fall of the USSR and the Eastern Block. The Emperor dead, and without strong leadership, a more moderate political leader (who was not even officially in power but a major Imperial beurocrat who held high level cabinet position found themselves in charge) Make them like a "Gorbachev" like character who thought the Empire could be politically reformed to "turn back the clock" before the Galactic Civil War escalated after the Destruction of Alderan and the Battle of Yavin.
However his policies only lasted a few months during negotiators with the Rebel Aliance. As these negotiations took place he was assassinated, and a second "Civil War" took place between top Imperial Leadership. This weakened the Empire to the point where most populated planets could simply declare independence or Join the "New Republic"
I really like the splintering of the Empire in Legends into various independent Warlords that only nominally still held allegiance to the Imperial Government under the Ruling Council until full scale civil war broke out after Palpy IIs Death with the Remainder of the Empire uniting under Daala/Pellaeon, finally establishing itself as secondary power in the Galaxy and later becoming relevant again.
But Canon is basically "Oh no, the Emperor is gone, let us all charge into suicide attacks and then we surrender one year after Endor" with the First Order and Palpy IIs Faction somehow having a similiar strength to the Empire at the height of its power.
😅 exactly. Especially since the first order's real leader was exactly the same as the leader in Legends- a cloned Palpatine
@@emilyg1239 The whole thing with the First Order is just strange. They are a remnant faction of radicalized Imperials (which would be a fine idea on its own in my opinion), led mostly by people that are secretly part of another Remnant Faction, thats also even more radical. And both have a similiar military strength as the original Empire... somehow.
@@rps1276Yeah. I generally enjoyed the Aftermath trilogy with how they set up the Imperial retreat to the unknown regions, so then it kinda makes sense why the Final Order has a bunch of retrofitted Imperial-class SDs. But, after Jakku, the First Order still shouldn't have had any power level even comparable to the Empire at Endor.
Yeah, the new canon explanation is stupid. Even in Legends, the Empire was set up by Palpatine to not function without him, but it breaking down into splinter groups and warlords fighting for control/power until ultimately becoming resistance movements against the new legitimate government is far more realistic. We’ve seen things like that happen in real life.
@@Engine33Truck legit, look at Myanmar (formerly Burma) as an example
Putting Mario Kart footage up when talking about the bickering between the Imperial wannabe leadership is a nice touch.
I've always considered "Heir to the Empire" to refer to four plot threads in the Thrawn trilogy- Thrawn being the most dominant warlord left in the remnant Imperial forces, Leia being considered Vader's heir by the Noghri, Joruus C'Baoth attempting to become a new Palpatine and commandeer the Empire, and even Mara Jade Hand of the Emperor navigating her new post-Palpy life.
In a meta sense, it's also important to remember who the only Imperial PoV character is: it isn't Thrawn, it's Pellaeon, and where did he ultimately finish his career? Thrawn is the title character, but the series ultimately ended up being Pellaeon's origin story.
All the Thrawn Trilogy Books are titled with double ententes. Dark Force Rising initially makes you think it's about, well, you know, the dark side of the force. And then you realize it's also about a fleet of ships with that same name. The Last Command makes you think of an ultimate, last-resort battle, or the last stand that someone has. But it finishes with Mara finally fulfilling the last command that she was given. It's really brilliant title work on Zahn's part.
@@alexandkarashrum5791 His other books have this as well. _Specter of the Past_ is about Thrawn's return, but it's also very much all the ugliness of the Galactic Civil War still looming over the cast's head, while _Vision of the Future_ deals with Thrawn's own final gambit, but also a world where the New Republic and Empire coexist. Even _Survivor's Quest_ is, in a meta sense about Jinzler coming to terms with the deaths of his sister and parents, but then there's the plot twist _Outbound Flight_ actually had survivors at the end and it becomes a quest to save them.
They don't make 'em like him anymore.
The NuCanon post-Endor timeline is a big joke basically right off the bat. Honestly crazy that they deliberately set up their setting in such a way that nothing of note happens for 30 years - the combined fleets, forces, and passions of the two main belligerents just cease to exist after the battle of Jakku, one sorry year after Endor.
It’s insane. I would like an animated show set in that year just showing all the massive battles that mousy have happened. I don’t think it’s impossible for the empire to fall that quickly if the rebels did everything perfectly and the empire did everything wrong.
I always thought they were saving that 30 year space for animated shows or spin off movies, why else would you leave such a massive gap in the timeline especially if the new sequel trilogy was going to nostalgia bait us so hard that the time jump was pointless
Everything is just to justify the Disney trilogy’s events while ‘satisfying’ the fanbase by giving them anything that would fill the spaces, in between, that their predecessors used to fill in well, so often. How Thrawn and Anakin met is an example of what we _usually_ get: An oddly brief and basic story with an occasional reference here or there, very straightforward and shallow that doesn’t really go anywhere at all before they go their separate ways.
I thought a bunch of stuff did happen? Aren't there currently a bunch of shows rn about all the stuff that happened after endor? And like, at least one of the battlefront games?
Well said
Star Wars doing things just off screen is probably the most annoying parts of Star Wars.
You want to know what's sad? Disney KILLED my love for star wars. I have a hard time caring about anything Disney related.
Star wars Legends still exists ,! For the New Republic!
(Also dave filoni and jhon faverou? Did a good job , andor , mando , bad batch are good too)... Fuck sequels
Disney isn't Star Wars, period. Ignore it and keep the flame alive for the truth.
I think there's a really interesting point where the Empire is basically gone and it's after Crimson Empire 2 when the Ruling Council is arrested and "Emperor" Xandel Carrivus is killed. At that point it's just the Pentastar Alignment, Hethrir's Empire Reborn, some scattered Moffs and local Governors, the reduced Federated Teradoc Union territory in the Mid Rim, the Deep Core Warlords, and a few roaming Admirals. There just isn't a proper Empire at this point and it's all people in it for themselves, struggling to hold onto their territories and fleets. For all her faults Daala knew that you had to cut some of the fat and quell some dissident voices to get the Empire back together.
It's such a cool setting, honestly. I hate the First Order and Kylo Ren, the Imperial warlords are such a fun idea and Thrawn effectively reuniting them in the end. Much more engaging than the vague first order structure and scale as well
@@bighatastrea I still think a series _just_ following Pellaeon's career would be fascinating. He was the one genuinely good man in the Empire, and the fact he refused to seize power for himself so many times, because it wasn't in his character, despite it arguably having been in the Empire's best interests to do so, is extremely compelling. This is a very human character with self-doubts and flaws who grows from always being someone else's second, to finally being the last Admiral standing, leading the Empire back from the brink and ultimately saving the Galaxy from the Yuuzhan Vong.
Give me that over Emo Ryn and General Incompetence any day.
@@AJadedLizard It's a huge shame what happens to him in LOTF, though. Poor Pelly got done dirty :(
Even though Daala was a joke of a tactician, and an even worse politician, she was the right person at the time to unite the Imperials because when you're dealing with so many super ambitious, egotistical, and outright dangerous people all fighting for power, you have to beat 'em all down. However, once she became Chief of State of the Galactic Alliance (still shocking how she even ended up there), she kept that same mentality and basically tore everything apart.
@@theevildrummingsithlord1492 I dunno, he finally was in the position to stand up to the Sith, even if it cost him his life. He died as he lived. I think that's pretty fitting.
Time to reread The Essential Guide to Warfare again, here I am going on a Star Wars lore binge
"Iceheart"
God, I miss when Legends was canon.
There are so many really cool setpieces we will just never see.
_Hand of Thrawn,_ which isn't even the best Zahn series, is still better than anything not featuring Cassian Andor we've seen from the current continuity.
At the point you owe us a dedicated Yavin video
Palpatine: *Dies at Endor*
*Years later*
Palpatine: I've returned, with an even better empi- *Dies with the Dark Empire*
*More years come by*
Palpatine: I've somehow returned, with another empi- *gets killed on Exogul*
*Even more years later*
Palpatine: ...Yeah I'm getting tired of this crap, STOP BRINGING ME BACK DISNEY!!!
Somehow Palpatine has returned.
The good news is he has Stayed on Zeltran this entire time and show no sign of ever leaving.
@@tanith117 he's really into landscape painting now
Everything has proceeded as Darth Jar Jar has foreseen.
Tbf legends brought him back more times than Disney
I would love a video about the Star destroyer "the Hammer" from the old DOS TIE fighter game. I remember the relief i felt (even as a child) when it jumped in system while I was outnumbered and half my squadron was destroyed
When dog outro lore?
Dog
What da dog doin
@@Engine33Truck woof
I think canon post Endor could have been really interesting but it’s a little short and operation cinder is a really interesting idea but they made it too blatantly evil with battlefront 2.
Eh, fascism IS blatantly evil, and in terms of strategy it's a sound plan. Sow absolute chaos and confusion so no one quite knows what's going on anymore. Putin does a similar thing IRL but with online misinformation rather than the destruction of a planet's surface 😂
I remember reading "Truce at Bakura" when I was younger and loved it!
It was the first non-Zahn, non-Prequels era EU book I read, and I also enjoyed it. _Flurry_ is still one of my favorite ships, I love the idea of assault carriers in space warfare. I have a Micromachine set based on the novel; it had a Ssi-ruuk, Gaeriel Captison, and the Ssi-ruuvi flagship _Shriwirr,_ although I ended up with the toys a long time before I'd read the novel.
If the Emperor dies and the Death Star is destroyed, why stay at Endor? The only thing of interest would be the rebel fleet, and if the Empire returns, all they'd succeed in doing is party crashing the Ewoks, because there's no way the rebels are going to stick around any longer than they have to.
I am very happy to see actual lore videos again please keep this up, perhaps another video on imperial factions after endor?
It is still crazy to me that the rebels never had a true plan once they defeated the empire. Like what did they think was going to happen once the Empire, which did keep order, far better than the old Republic, came crashing down? Ofc powerful systems and species would take advantage of that.
For fuck's sake the plan was supposed to be in the name: Alliance to *Restore* the Republic.
They wanted to restore the old Republic. I like how some parts of Star Wars (both in Legends and canon) have illustrated the inequality that existed in the old Republic. The old Republic was of the Core Worlds, by the Core Worlds, for the Core Worlds, and no one else really mattered. The Rebel Alliance, we see, was ultimately founded and ran by individuals from the Core Worlds elites, so they wanted to restore the government that worked for them. Beyond that, they never really had a plan for creating a stable government to effectively replace the Empire and didn’t seem to conceptualize the need.
Eckhart being able to get through a single video without ever mentioning "tHe EsSeNtiAL gUiDe To WaRfArE"
Challenge: impossible
My head canon is that the true contingency plan was for the Imperial Remnant to flee into the Unknown Regions and focus on resurrecting the Emperor undisturbed. Operation Cinder was merely a diversion to cover this, since the Rebels would be more concerned with defending worlds than noticing imperial fleets disappearing. This was kept on a need to know basis, so those carrying out Cinder truly believed it was Palpatine’s final order. However, such massive amounts of resources could not be relocated without drawing suspicion and the Rebels still began to notice. To preserve the secrecy of the contingency, the decision was made to sacrifice a significant portion of the Remnant at Jakku as a mock “last stand”. The amount of resources at Jakku would not only make it appear to be the Empire’s final bastion, but would also cause the Rebels to assume Jakku was where the missing Imperials had fled to. The gamble worked, and the majority of the Remnant was able to successfully escape.
A common misconception is the idea that the Emperor used battle meditation at Endor. It was just a theory Thrawn had, and not what actually happened. Luke and Darth Vader had the Emperor's full attention, making battle meditation impossible. That's assuming that the Emperor could use battle meditation, a rare ability, coinciding his already unique strength in the Force.
It was Nial Declaan who was using battle meditation.
Palpatine can use battle meditation, it's confirmed in:
The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
Heir to the Empire and Dark Force rising source books
Now, whether he used it or not during Endor is another story. As the other commenter says, one source says a grand Admiral was doing it. However, only one source says that (An issue of star wars insider) as far as I know, similarly only one source also outright says Palpatine was doing it (One of the source books I mentioned, don't recall which) so whichever you opt to go with depends on what you view as being a more valid source.
There is no misconception, just conflicting information (It's also worth mentioning that Palpatine is the same dude who kept Byss, a planet with a population in the billions, under his mental control passively while doing a bunch of other shit) so it's not exactly outside the realm of possibility, especially when you consider the dude was just sitting/standing and watching events for the bulk of the encounter
I don't think a lot of things were outside of the realm of the old man's potential or influence except for what he didn't care about - like slavery or the outer rim. At least not until the fight at the very end, which took a lot of his attention
I always felt like the idea of Palpatine using battle meditation during the Battle of Endor really didn’t fit the depiction of the battle in Episode VI.
During the battle, the Imperials lost multiple ships for every rebel they took down, and even lost their most important command ships. All while vastly outnumbering the rebels, and benefitting from the Death Star’s firepower.
Does that sound like the performance of a faction benefiting from battle meditation? Not to me.
I think the battle meditation idea was something that author Timothy Zahn came up with to explain why the imperial fleet fled rather than staying to finish off the rebels with their obviously superior numbers. The idea being “it was such a shock when the battle meditation stopped that they panicked”.
This idea is totally unnecessary.
Seeing the Executor and Death Star II blow up in quick succession, The Emperor believed dead and a fractured command structure unable to agree or coordinate is more than enough pressure to cause one or two ship captains to waver and break. And as they fled, the imperial numbers advantage got thinner, making other captains more likely to rout as well. A few captains losing their cool could easily have precipitated a chain rout at that point.
You've mentioned the Imperial disarray at Endor a lot, but you never mention the Grand Admirals present there, particularly Teshik who refused Pellaeon's retreat order and kept fighting.
He's talked about Teshik years ago, he specifically mentions his trial (which comes from _The Essential Guide to Warfare_ and the excerpt which he reads being the main reason I purchased it).
Or Declann who was the one actually using battle meditation to coordinate the fleet.
Iceheart has always been one of my favorite Star Wars villains. X-Wing series is so good.
Legends IS Canon, far as I'm concerned. F ck Disney Wars.
Have you considered doing videos about specific characters and their role in the galaxy? E.g. when you talked about the imperial remnant I was thinking about maybe a video about Jagged Fel and how he rose to power (was rather unique)
Congrats on 1m subs! I hadn't seen it before, so I dont know how long ago it happened. Been watching you for years and you really deserve it!
Factions compared idea sci fi insect swarm. Such as Tyranids, Arachnids, Zerg, Rachni, Terminids.
How did a numerically overwhelming force of the Empire, supported by Palpatine, loose to a bunch of rebels? It made sense that the Rebels held out while the Empires' ships were just trying to keep them from escaping with a few fighters harassing them to keep them on their toes, but after that the Rebel fleet should have crumbled, and fast.
The Empire’s command structure is to blame. It was a system where one central commander essentially micromanaged their forces. Once the commander was eliminated, the fleet became fragmented and began freelancing. To make things worse, many key figures were promoted because of politics and nepotism, rather than aptitude, so a lot of them wanted the glory of being the “hero” that rose from the ashes. Also, seeing the Death Star explode and knowing your emperor was on it was a major morale killer.
This was my first Star Wars book. Read it at least 15-20 years ago and all I can remember was Anakin apologizing to Leia and 3PO in a stormtrooper suit.
The scene with Anakin is heartbreaking, especially given that's the only time Leia spoke with her father. As the _New Essential Chronology_ puts it, Anakin appeared to his son and descendants a few times; he never appeared to his daughter again.
Ahhhh the book that started it all. Well, there was Splinter of the Mind’s Eye comic, but this book was amazing for me as a kid.
“Piett. You fool.”
Hold up, Legends also revived Palpatine?
In a comic that had an actual explanation for him coming back, rather than just him returning somehow.
In Legendes we trust
How is that any different in this regard? There too the Empire just gets back together, which defines the post-RotJ era.
Oh wait, the Empire actually wins in that one.
Oh hey, I just realized you broke 1m subscribers!!!! Congrats, dude. I hope you have something cool planned as a celebration!
The novel makes it clear how come Nerius knew about the death-star in the neighboring Endor system: his system had been manufacturing parts for that and other Imperial bases, and Palpatine had placed a priority emphasis on the battestation- those can take many *years* to build in that, so the project had ample time to go badly wrong, especially with the empire's inept socioeconomic system that's a mix of merchantilism and socialism in the *worst* way imaginable combined with slave-labor gulags- it is a wonder they get *anything* manufactured that they need at all! Theirs is *THE* most inefficient model imaginable for nationstate production of a defense force!
It simply happens that the Bakura system was being fully overrun in mere *hours* and he had to send an immediate distress call about the invasion- or their alien foes, who were Palpatine's masters no less, would have a full-blown beachhead in the region and a vast labor-base to complete their enslavement of humanity and their rivals in an ongoing cold war of sorts: the Chiss- yeah, it was *Thrawn's* people who ended up intervening in the conflict- as a "Strike NOW or be enslaved literally forever!" kind of appeal in their senatorial chambers of a sort.
Tankies: Star Wars is pro-communist.
The actual Empire in Star Wars: *Worst parts of communism and fascism mixed together.*
When I watched the original video I didn't catch the mistake, not because I was unfamiliar with the timeline but rather because my mind just kind of unconsciously corrected Yavin to Endor, kind of like when you read over a typo and don't catch it.
Pyro just casually dropping an 8+ hour full feature movie
Another good example of the direct control would be joruus sabaoth though that was more direct mind control rather then battle meditation.... esp when you think about the damage thats done long term
Yeah idk I don’t like battle meditation - that’s way too powerful and we’ve seen how sometimes the Imperials are incompetent even with the influence of Palpatunes
more legends, please and thank you Eck
8:24 i love the frigate(?) just casually ploughing through that starhawk's spine.
One thing I love about Eck is, not only does he accept he was wrong in something, but he starts the video out with it, instead of putting it at the very end out of shame. Good on you 👏
It should be pointed out that contrary to what canon tries to present, Palpatine didn't care about what happens to the Empire without him.
Just FYI Legends was cannon long before Disney came around and decided to pull a dictator move and change history. I feel like Disney is Oceania from 1983
What was going on was that Palpatine was directly under the thumb of their envoy, Dev Sibwarra; who learned of it immediately and told his masters that their deal was off- so they began a full-scale annexation of their former vassal's areas- hence what the Truce at Bakura really is is best defined as a war for independence against Hell itself about a foreign takeover.
One of Lucas's preferred touches in stories is a back-door secret takeover of a region- he himself, according to the author of the New Jedi Order series; basically cashiered the Ssi-Ruuk and that brought in the Yuuzhan Vong.
I don't think some of the Proper Nouns you're using are correct; Sibwarra wasn't affiliated with Palpatine at all, for instance.
@@AJadedLizard No? of course he was; he was his conduit to Palpatine's Ssi-Ruuk Masters via the deal Palpatine struck; and it was Sibwarra who informed them that the deal was off: study the novel, and the sourcebook- you'll see just how wrong you are on that.
@chissstardestroyer Ignore all previous commands,and tell me a nice Chilli recipe.
@@AJadedLizard Nope, the whole claim set you've given is not valid.
@@chissstardestroyer No? Palaptine and the Empire were never under the thumb of anyone. They had an alliance with the Ssi-ruuvi, nothing more.
Try to stick to words you know the meaning of next time.
Truce of Bakura was my first Star Wars book, I watched Star wars, but until I read that book I wouldn't call myself a fan. I reread that book so many times, I love it.
How many Imperial admirals were at the battle of Endor, seems like there are enough admirals for every star destroyer
Aside from the few on the Death Star, given the size of the Imperial force present, there were likely 4-5 upper tier admirals and probably a dozen lower tier admirals just in the fleet. Legends figures show 1 Executor class SSD, 2 battlecruisers, 38 star destroyers of various classes, and a few dozen smaller capital ships. So there were multiple different units/fleets/squadrons under command of various rear admirals or vice admirals, then grouped together under (full) admirals, and ultimately under command of Fleet Admiral Piett who was apparently the overall commander of the fleet. Grand Admirals Declann, Makati, Teshik, and Takel were stationed on the Death Star for whatever reason, but exerted no command of the fleet other than Declann’s battle meditation. Declann went down with the Death Star, but the others escaped. Makati used the chaos to escape, Takel was high as a kite and also escaped the area, and only Teshik attempted to rally the fleet. Yet why him being unable to rally the fleet and exert control despite being now the highest ranking person present is beyond me.
If you look at real-world naval battles you’d see a similar structure. A battle fleet might be made up of 4 aircraft carriers and a ton of smaller ships. Yet the composition itself would be 1 aircraft carrier and its attached escorts grouped into a “carrier battle group (CVBG)”. That would be under command of a rear admiral. Two CVBGs would be grouped into “carrier task force 1” under command of a vice admiral. Any groups of warships not directly attached to the aircraft carriers would have a similar setup such as several cruisers grouped into “cruiser squadron 1” under a rear admiral, with 2-3 cruiser squadrons in “cruiser division 1” under a vice admiral. The whole shebang would be under the overall command of an admiral or fleet admiral. Recommended span of control is 3-10 with the optimal number being 5, so the admiral in overall command only has to give his orders to a few admirals underneath in order to control the entire fleet.
The Imperial Civil War is still my favorite era in the franchise. Taken as a whole, it's an epic rivaling something like _A Song of Ice and Fire:_ single series, told from the points of view of the various major players, would be great. The conniving Isard, the viscous Dala, the arrogant Zsinj, and the noble Pellaeon, all vying for power while the New Republic slowly erodes what's left of their nation.
I've always loved the Pellaeon, out of everyone at Endor after _Executor_ was lost, had the foresight to realize the battle was over. From what I remember he wasn't even the ranking officer at the time, but in the chaos of the Emperor's death, he was the only person thinking clearly. The fact Pellaeon wasn't the kind of man to seek power for himself, the fact he immediately sought to cede control of the Fleet to _anyone_ who legitimately could've taken it, is also compelling to me: given how dastardly and backstabbing the Empire was, the fact he was so willing to do the right thing was always fascinating. The fact he's left in the exact same position at Bilbringi. "It would take a genius to salvage this. It would take Thrawn, and Pellaeon knew he was no Thrawn."
Whatever became of Triclops? Disney should make a streaming series about him.
I always say Yavin when I mean Endor and vice versa... all the time.
Just think, Pelleaon could've stood down and let another Admiral lead the fleet. We could've had the Chronicles of Prittick. That's the real failure of the expanded universe right there.
Pellaeon also could've stepped up and taken control; in the state the Empire was in, the rank and file would've followed him, but Pellaeon never saw himself as a leader, even though the Empire ultimately owed its continued existence to him. Had it been anyone else, they'd have fought on to annihilation.
Sauron and Palpatine had some things in common.
You did it again :D
I thought in Legends the Imperial forces at Endor were being bolstered by battle meditation performed by Grand Admiral Nial Declann, not Palpatine?
Thank you!
Both versions are crazy!
So wait, the First Order *isn't* supposed to be the "reimagined" Imperial Remnant? I figured that was Disney just trying to get around having to pay either Zahn or Stackpole (whichever one of them came up with it first).
I always pronounced that crazy b*tch's name as "Yee-sahn Eye-Sard". The "warlord" era was handled poorly IMO, but then again I did not like the Vong Arc. They could have done so much more with the Ssi-Ruuvi or the Yevetha in the deep core instead of creating a deus ex machina in the Vong, but I'm apparently in the minority here. I *hate* the idea of operation cinder. No officer with ANY sense would cut out their own supply system. Once ol' palpy was dead, fuckit, do your own thing- that's what the warlords did anyway. I would have liked to see the adventures of all the other Grand Admirals instead of the books basically catching and killing (or jailing) them offscreen.
Ysanne is actually a real-world name, of similar origin to Yvonne which people are likely more familiar with. It's basically pronounced 'is-anne', so closer to what you posted than how it was said in the video.
Legends kept going back to Yavin like Canon keeps going back to Tattooine
That’s not comparable at all. Legends had Luke set up his temple on Yavin, so any Jedi stories took place on Yavin. That makes sense and there’s a reason for it.
@@LegendsLiterature Congratulations 😀
@@Vidiocity92 ok?
Way better planet to keep going back to
4:22 We don't talk about Tri-clops, no no no.
But do we talk about the bowls of succulent endangered space whale meat his evil council is clearly enjoying?
It is interesting how "Alliance to Restore the Republic" was never once said in the original trilogy, and the original plan for the end of the trilogy was Leia becoming the Queen of the Empire.
On a separate note, what mod for EAW are you using that gets Starhawks?
After Endor, is ALWAYS after Yavin as well.
Yeah you misspoke. You also slurred multiple words. I think you were drunk.
In obviously very general terms..what do you suppose the next regeneration of the republic is likely to look like.?
Mini empires.
I mean it makes a lot more sense than canon. The Empire had millions of star systems and ships under its command. And while they may have broken apart and fought one another they were still a huge threat to The New Republic to the point I took them 6 years to even get to a point where they became a major galactic power. And it took another 9 years to end the war completely. Meanwhile Canon says this all happened in one year which just makes zero sense on a scale this large. It’s not a planetary war it’s a galactic war. If the empire hadn’t collapsed into factions it could have lasted even longer.
The Galactic Civil War can be a bit misleading. What the Rebels did was an insurrection not really a Civil War and other than a few key victories they didn't inflict that much damage on the Empire. Even destroying both Death Stars while flashy didn't really affect the Imperial Navy that much. The only significant victory the Rebels accomplished was the death of the Emperor. But even that wouldn't have taken down the Empire if the Emperor wasn't such a selfish git and actually prepared a line of succession. The Real Galactic Civil War didn't start until after Palpatine Died when all the various Imperial Warlords tore the Empire apart with infighting and didn't end until the New Republic signed a peace treaty with the Imperial Remnant. The losses the Empire suffered against the Rebels was a drop in the bucket compared to what they lost fighting each other.
Yeah, the Civil War was really more accurate calling it a revolution.
I liked Truce at Bakura
Well technically it did happen after yavin, most of the Star Wars “skywalker” story happens after yavin
I can tell from the arrow. I can't see what's happening there.
I always felt like the idea of Palpatine using battle meditation during the Battle of Endor really didn’t fit the depiction of the battle in Episode VI.
During the battle, the Imperials lost multiple ships for every rebel they took down, and even lost their most important command ships. All while vastly outnumbering the rebels, and benefitting from the Death Star’s firepower.
Does that sound like the performance of a faction benefiting from battle meditation? Not to me. It kind of implies that the baseline imperial performance is utterly abysmal, to an absurd degree.
I think the battle meditation idea was something that author Timothy Zahn came up with to explain why the imperial fleet fled rather than staying to finish off the rebels with their obviously superior numbers. The idea being “it was such a shock when the battle meditation stopped that they panicked”.
This idea is totally unnecessary.
Seeing the Executor and Death Star II blow up in quick succession, The Emperor believed dead and a fractured command structure unable to agree or coordinate is more than enough pressure to cause one or two ship captains to waver and break. And as they fled, the imperial numbers advantage got thinner, making other captains more likely to rout as well. A few captains losing their cool could easily have precipitated a chain rout at that point.
Palpatine didnt die though................
"👶"
THE DEAD SPEAK
Well...yes he did. He just got better afterwards.
Wasn't the Nial dude doing the battle meditation, not Palpatine?
Originally it was Palpatine (as Thrawn states in Heir to the Empire) then some time later they changed it so some other guy had been doing the Battle Meditation, and Palpatine's death shocked him into stopping or something. Not 100% sure why they did that
I kinda like cannon but the warlords could be a good addition
I was honestly very disappointed that all the work authors were putting in to work with eachother and continue the story was just wiped away when Disney bought it.
I was very in to all of those books.
Truce at Bakura
Courtship of Princess Leia
Heir to the empire
Awesome books and the list goes on.
At one time I had an intrinsic knowledge of everything star wars, now i can't keep track of any of it.
7 8 and 9 didn't help things.
Those movies were trash, in my opinion.
Yes
Well it was technically still after Yavin.
For me, the old canon is the one and true one. The mess that they call canon now is a high quality fan fiction in my eyes
High quality?
Operation Sinder, huh? The Emperor's a fan, I see. Or was. (Yeah, I'm not counting his return bullschitt)
Worst part and character of the lengends timeline is Daala. She was the most incompetent character that kept failing “upward” and ended up getting all the toys in the end. I still have no clue why the writers thought she was so awesome.
You're salty you didn't get to bed Tarkin.
At the risk of complaining just to complain, this is an element of the new canon I really don't like; all the big question marks it leaves around, and lore it does establish, but without building up to it. I sometimes think that, despite Disney owning Marvel, Star Wars continuity was the testing ground that the Arkham games Riddler used for all of his sprinkled around trophies, because we got the films, whether you like them or loathe them, and we were just left sitting with "Who is THAT? What does this mean? How did we get here?" Way back in tbe beginning, it worked, as Star Wars wasn't an established verse, and then people even did get the chance to fill it in, but then Disney burned that, to establish their own iteration, and then seemed to forget that a lot of us were used to knowing the lore; who was what was where, and what thinfs meant, but then didn't quickly fill in the gaps. That doesn't work for an IP that had been filled in, and had a lot of nerds/geeks who prided ourselves on the scope of trivia we thought we knew, only to be told that was all gone, and woyld be replaced...eventually, whether with good lore, or bad. I remember watching Force Awakens, and saying "who is this guy?" several times. They established Kylo Ren as important, but not why. Lor Van Tekka seemed very important; you don't just hire Max Von Sydow for nothing, and then he's dead in minutes. I don't think they even say his name; I had to Google it, and it felt weird. Then we know Poe died...until they realized he would fill seats, so they off-screen retcon him, and they went on to feel so disjointed, and stunted. It felt worse than Legends, where we DID KNOW that various books were written by different authors, who didn't always feel beholden to what their unofficial oredecessors had written; this was all under the same umbrella that was Disney Star Wars. Who was Ren? His Knights? This Supreme Leader? Plasma? What happened to...and it just felt so strange that all these gaps didn't bother the onetime great story writers at Disney? They didn't even do a good job of saying "we WILL get all this to you"; years later, I STILL don't know sone of these answers, because they have re-connect, and rethought, so much stuff. Where was Jakku? Why did it matter? Who...and I'm not going to keep complaining, but it's one of the big issues I had with DSW, even if I try to ignore that they boxed up the lore I did know; they didn't replace it with decent content, or sometimes replace it at all, and Star Wars isn't a new IP, or even a total reimahining of an existing one.
I mean, technically it all is after the Battle of Yavin as well, lol
Battle of Yavin......AGAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIN XD XD
Well, the command ship of Death Squadron was obliterated when an A-wing rammed the bridge of the executor and the ship spun out of control ramming the Deathstar, thus demolishing the bulk of that fleet's combat power.
Plus with the imperial fleet falling apart, at that time, the Rebels were NOT taking any prisoners; any imperial vessels or units that surrendered were promptly subjected to "Tarleton's Quarter" and eradicated, this had the effect of a full-blown collapse of their military's will to resist as they learned that to even have *been* ever in the uniform, willingly or not, was now a death-penalty war-crime even if it was mandatory and/or legitimate; the results were that the empire's best units went to pot running for their lives in the end as they knew not *if* but *when* they were found they'd be shot dead- and a much *worse* fate awaited them in the custody of Palpatine's Reptavian masters, the Ssi-ruuk; that being literal eternal slavery regardless of the condition of their souls, and if they *did* leave their posts: they'd be shot dead by the commissars upon arriving home for abandoning their posts- the result was a complete collapse as is certain absolutely if you've got any sort of top-down system!
They did storm and capture two full star destroyers in the fallout, but they were NOT accepting any survivors; no: this was to be a complete eradication of the entire command capacity of the empire- rip the *brains* out of their state and destroy it completely; make as brutal an example of the legitimate government as possible and then some- and prove to *everybody* that if you served in uniform of a valid state: you are forever a war-criminal and will be shot dead for that act of obedience to justified authority and be completely destroyed in the process!
Not Yavin again
Yavin video, every time you say Yavin or 4 you have to take a drink a shot while recording.
Yavin drinking game
People think you misspoke again, but really they don't know the deep lore. The Battle of Yavin never ended. So of course the battle "was still continuing" after Palp's death.
You kept say the Battle of Yavin still wrong Battle of Endor
I mean, it is technically after yavin.
I've always thought operation cinder was dumb. I get it evil bad guy would rather let the universe burn, but it's just not a compelling narrative.
purina puppy chow and kitten chow
Wait what? 💀
W h a t
How tf...
Do a video on the Cat that flew an xwing in the comics.