This is perhaps the most valuable contribution to the conversation about Israel-Gaza since October 7th. Thank you Sam for making this interview publicly available. I hope many people listen to it with an open mind
Daniel Maté, a composer-lyricist, who is also Jewish, in his response to Brené Brown on Gaza: "They [the resistence] are the ones who deserve our respect, our alliagence, or at least our decency to shut the f* up and not condemn them until we understand their material conditions"
Thank you for no pay wall on this one. I’m too proud to get a free account and I’m struggling with money lately. I really do appreciate getting to hear this whole episode.
I can afford it and opt for the free subscription. Been doing it for years. The content isn't worth the money and I feel no obligation to enrich those with more money than me. There isn't a single podcast worth paying for that I'm aware of besides Dan Carlin's Hardcore History.
The people who need to hear this most are actually the people who will forget all this the second something more interesting comes along. That is to say, they don't need to hear it. Those who really do need to know it already do know it. The politicians. And we all know exactly why they are pretending to not know the reality of the situation. Gross.
I pray this interview goes viral. I have been in shock for 6 months that so many people could believe a brutal war against terrorists who use human shields is somehow now a genocide. The obsessive hate people have for the IDF while ignoring and excusing Hamas is insane.
So you think that indiscriminately killing these human shields to get at these terrorists is justified? You do realize the human shields are mostly women and children that don’t want to die right?
Dude it's not one or the other. We can condemn both Hamas and the IDF. The fact is, the IDF is killing 30x more innocent life than Hamas. Their war crimes are endless. It just happens to be that one group's war crimes are obvious savagery, while the other group's are more complex and hidden from view, but they are still egregious war crimes nonetheless!
@@atlehman69 did you even watch the video? Obviously not. Oct 7th was first degree murder. War on Hamas isn't murder. Arabs killed 7 Jews a minute. Are 7 Arabs dying a minute? No. If Israel was like Hamas there'd be no Arabs alive "Endless war crimes" is rhetoric. You're just a Jew hating pro-Hamas bigot...
Daniel Maté, a composer-lyricist, who is also Jewish, in his response to Brené Brown on Gaza: "They [the resistence] are the ones who deserve our respect, our alliagence, or at least our decency to shut the f* up and not condemn them until we understand their material conditions"
Thank you for sharing this outside of the paywall. I’ve been following John Spencer for years, and he is undoubtedly one of the most well-informed & intellectually honest analysts regarding urban warfare.
This is among the most useful discussions that I've heard since the initial weeks following the terrorist attack and the most in-depth discussion I've encountered about the specifics of what's happening on the ground in Gaza. Thank you for posting it outside of the paywall so that as many people as possible are able to hear.
At minute 1:15:00 they talked about idf killing 4 teenagers walking along without any RPGs or any weapons. Spencer says since idf targeted the teenagers who were not carry any weapons the idf must be correct. Let's say they were soldiers without any weapons, thus defenseless can be killed? Both Spencer and Sam are dumb!
At minute 1:22:00 they are talking about the day after when no more rockets from Gaza. How is Israel going to control 2 million Gazans. Normally for prisions there is 1 guard for every 10 prisoner. So for Gaza a population of 2 million needs a 200k IDF forces to patrol. Let's say each soldier is paid the minimum salary of USD 10 per hour. Which comes to 10x10x365= USD 36 500 per year. For 200k idf soldiers it comes to USD7.3 billion a year. The US Congress will definitely pass the bill.
My world view flipped 180 after spending years in a debate group with pro-Palestinian activists. I’ve been on both sides of the fence and spent significant time listening to all sides. After that deliberation I came to the conclusion this world view best reflected reality.
That was an incredibly important episode that provided much needed clarity and insight. It could have massive positive impact if enough minds encounter it. Share it as much as you can everyone.
What a fantastic speaker. So relevant today with his field of expertise. I listened to him on another podcast but it’s a whole different level with Sam as a host. It’s saddening that such unbiased and important conversations don’t get the deserved attention and hundreds of thousands of views.
The biggest crime of the international community is the fact that they made Hamas's strategy of using Human shields not only a viable strategy but also an acceptable one.
So it’s a “crime” when the international community supposedly doesn’t call out the human shield tactics (many do)…but it’s not a crime when the IDF kills civilians being used as said human shields? Got it.
@@deborahfreedman333 they do. Even biased organizations like AI have consistently condemned them for it. It‘s just like the Hamas supporting keyboard warriors and university arab cosplayers are very selective in their recognition of what AI condemns.
*Some samples of LAST 20 years:* Nigeria Boko Haram 350,000 dead Sudan JEM/Darfur 300,000 dead Yemen vs Houthis 233,000 dead Pakistan vs Islamists 50,000 dead Syria 500,000 dead South Sudan's 400,000 dead Ethiopia and Eritrea vs Tigray 600,000 dead No protests for all these dead. They are not about people in Gaza, the demonstrations knowingly and unknowingly are in service of other interests. International players play for their interests. The international western democracies which are those you actually refer to, suffer from an inherent deficiency of democracies, where the government usually relies on 50%+ of votes , and gaining that + or - depends on a fringe percentage of voters, the loyal base stays loyal and the fringe voters get the power.
I've heard John Spencer elsewhere, but this interview stands out because of the quality of the questions and the generous duration of the conversation.
@@kmg474 No, it was a lecture from a person who knows much more about war than you do. And if you were smart enough, you would have listened and think, but you are unable to make your brainwashed head to do so.
@piege2 Sure, he knows lots about war. The point is, there shouldn't be a war. Especially not one that is being almost exclusively waged against women and children.
@@kmg474 interesting. And where all the men have disappeared, or maybe Gaza consists only of women and children? Or maybe Israeli bombs are so smart that they fall only on the heads of women and children? Does it seem logical to you? By the way, there are updated figures from UN regarding the death toll with details how many different groups are killed and the numbers of women and children have been drastically reduced, but you keep relying on the pro-palestinian propaganda still and spread BS.
@@venicebeachsportsnetwork6677 But can you suggest how any country would respond to the attack? I thought it was great in 1990 when it seemed we could all disarm, and spend on general benefit... Or all these attacks imaginary? I really would like your thoughts.
@@willdon.1279 probably not level the infrastructure and buildings of a population of 2 million when Israel gives them like 3 bulldozers for the whole strip. And, that doesn't even get into the fact that they are just making more terrorists. So yeah, not what they ate doing
Some people say that Hamas did what they did as an act of resistance... I support Ukraine 101%. However, if they broke into Russia and did what Hamas did on October 7th, and Zelenski and the Ukrainian people supported this, I would be the first to stop being on their side. What I don't understand is how some westerners don't have this compulsion when it comes to October 7th, an obvious act of pure evil.
Truly an unprecedented war an difficult to compare. Hezbollah and the Iranian Quds force complicate an already massively complex war. Israel can not over commit forces against Hamas lest these other adversaries be given tactical advantage should they choose to attack. The nature of potential indirect attacks by artillery weapons demands that Israel reserve enough forces to counter attack all the while fighting in terrain that demands massive amounts of manpower to overpower the enemy.
it is actually recognized by now by the IDF after the recent investigations into that day, that there were 6,000 Gazans (combatants and non) who invaded Israel that day, in around 50 points, I think, across the fence. So - much broader.
People simply do not understand the reality of violence, and thus have wildly unrealistic expectations. This is the same problem we have with videos getting out of violent interactions between the police and people resisting arrest--the average person on the street sees the video and asks "why didn't the police just shoot him in the leg instead of killing him?" Because they only know the sanitized violence of super hero movies.
Because the west's left is self-loathing and is controlling important institutions. Add that to the millions of Muslims allowed to enter the west over the past few decades - and you get a recipe for disaster.
I'm afraid that is not true. We know that many, many Gazans followed Hamas into southern Israel on 7 Oct to loot. We know many in Gaza were openly celebrating the death and kidnapping of Israelis. We know from released hostages that Gazan civilians were holding them as hostage slaves at their homes, starving them in front of children. We know that Egypt has built a big fat wall to prevent Gazans from being able to enter Egypt. We know that every single poll taken in Gaza shows a huge level of support for Hamas. I don't know if those polls are full of false replies. But even without relying on polls at all, we have plenty of evidence to show huge numbers of Gazans support Hamas.
@@zilefn9212 Yes you're right. it seems like over 70% of them support such acts. so I would estimate 15-30% of the population being hostage to Hamas and the rest of the populations either ignorance or malice.
I'm curious about something no one ever seems to ask about the Gaza health ministry: where actually IS this organization?? If most of Gaza has been destroyed, how is the health ministry still fully functional and able to give their minute-by-minute updates?
Reading the Wikipedia page for GHM now. They are a branch of the Hamas government, and are therefore physically based in the tunnels and hideouts of the organizations. They were previously functioning as a network of health professionals in now destroyed hospitals. It’s been shown that around 50% of their data is procured indirectly from un-cited “reliable media sources”. Furthermore around 35% of their mortality claims are based on “incomplete data”.
I imagine there's no office building or permanent address, likewise for bunch of other "institutions" It's probably just some guys who are the Ministry of this and that. One day they "work" behind some kitchen table next day the ministry has a meeting -session in a bunker next to a room where hostages are being held. We have probably different idea what "functional" means :)
I don’t think there is a more qualified person to speak about the way Israel is prosecuting this war in an objective manner. Excellent choice for a guest. Also important to note that it was very intelligent of Sam to not put this episode behind a paywall. It allows far more people to become educated on how to view the war during a time where there is a lot of confusion around the way Israel is prosecuting the war response. I just hope this gets out to as many people as possible. Well done.
The conversation at 25:00 about morals and ethics, cultural asymmetry regarding rape- does that still hold up after the rape video at the Israeli detention center and subsequent rioting for the freedom of the offenders, and the right to rape detainees? Even at the govt level this shameful conversation was had for the world to see.
And the Israeli government prosecuted and jailed those soldiers. That's aside from the difference in sheer scale of 1 tortured prisoner vs thousands of brutal rapes and murders. Both are terrible, but pretending that makes both sides the same is just absolutely disgustingly disingenuous. How can you possibly be comparing these
@@Shmuel420 one video doesn't mean it only happened one time. There are numerous reports, including Dr. Al-Bursch, a well known professor and surgeon. My topic is valid, it's completely on subject.
John Spencer is a deontologist living in a simplistic, utilitarian world. He is 100% correct ethically, though he only hinted at his views in this interview. The most important moral question we should be asking is: What does the world look like if Hamas’s tactics are normalized - where attacking (civilians or military targets) and then falling back behind and under your own civilians is a legitimate way to fight a war and avoid consequences? Is this a world any of us want to live in? Utilitarians approach the issue as one of the absolute numbers of fatalities or the civilian to combatant ratio. While the latter is somewhat useful in gauging how careful an army is being, fatality figures are the wrong way of looking at war. There is no number or ratio above which a war becomes immoral. Protect the enemy’s civilians as best you can while minimizing the risk to your own people. That’s it.
Thank you, Sam. One can rely on you for a serious, in-depth, honest exploration of what is happening. Your choice of interlocutors is excellent.THANK YOU
Usually it takes me 14 days to listen to one of his videos cuz I have to pause every 4 seconds to look up words. Smooth brains like me appreciate small words videos like this
Amazing. An actual discussion with an actual expert with concrete experience on the matter at hand and similar events in the past. Must watch for every youtuber.
I wish you would have commented on the refusal of all surrounding Muslim countries to accept even one Palestinian woman and child seeking safe haven from Gaza.
Everybody should hear this. One of the most clear sighted, objective and sensible discussions about the Gaza war on the entire internet. Thank you to Sam Harris for making this available to everyone. A genuine public service in a time of turmoil and mental/moral chaos.
If you take Hamas numbers, the ratio is 1 Hamas to 4 civilians. Even that is a good ratio for an urban battle. Again, we don't look at that ratio. If the numbers of soldiers stay constant, then the ratio depends only on the population size. If the population is big, the ratio is big. If the population is small, the ratio is small. That's why we look at demographic ratio. What percentage of civilians were killed? What percentage of soldiers were killed? Those are the correct questions. I don't know why, but most people make that math mistake.
When you consider that'hamas' constitutes the entire civilian infrastructure in Gaza, functionaries, government, utilities.... That number takes on an even worse level. Also, what f***ING insane level of inhumane, zero empathy can you have when you talk about 4:1 ratio being just fine. That amounts to roughly 28,000 people dead. Where is your humanity?!
@@SiRushBassits more than fine comparetively to any war previouslu fought. Its more than fine when Hamas are deliberately trying to incur more civilian deaths for optics by not letting people leave areas and not providing bomb shelters. The ratio is much closer to 1 in 2 in.amy case, Hamas is lying about those numbers dont be ridiculous.
@@SiRushBasshumanity? Lol. Who converts schools to missile factories and uses children as combatants? 200,000 russians killed in ukraine, where is your humanity?
@@SiRushBass He didn't, and nobody says it is fine! There have been no wars throughout human history, when the civilians have not suffered most. They are just helpless, in 90% of the time. (and in Gaza, specifically excluded from the deep shelters, unlike Israelis) So you believe the latter are guilty because they look after their people. And not use them as victims to convince silly people anyone attacked should just surrender.
24:12 : Sam : 'Can you imagine the reverse case of the IDF dragging non-combantant women and children out of Gaza into Israel and random Israeli celebrating their rape and abuse .' This is exactly what is happening in the West Bank for years. Selective memory or ill will?Where is your moral landscape now ?
difficult to overstate just how needed this discussion is. seperate but sadly related question, Sam have you had any luck in securing Dan Stone for a conversation ?
At minute 52:00 Spencer talks about Hamas strategy. 1. Hamas never intended to hold territory. 2. Hamas knew they can never defeat IDF. 3. Hamas wanted to win the PR war.
Because that would be against international law. Gaza has to be part of a Palestinian state if we are in accordance with the law. Just not under Hamas rule of course.
Oh wow... The pristine clarity - morally, factually, historically, technically, militarily, geo-politically.... I'd donate everything and anything of value, monetarily or otherwise for this most precious gem of truth to be aired 24/7 on every single information platform on the planet and live out the rest of my life in blissful poverty. If only I wasn't already as poor as one can be :( Blessings on both of you - true and honest gentlemen.
@@PhotonDome Doffing your cap to the lords as they scoff at you. What makes you think that a man who blames Jews for their own genocide and a man who calls Fatah a terrorist organisation have the moral, factual, historical and geo-political clarity you claim they have?
@@jmc5335 Awww... The truth really hurts once you realise you've been living a lie. No biggie. You'll get over it. Overcoming denial is indeed the most challenging phase. I wish you nothing but goodness on your path ahead. That said, relinquishing hate requires a concious choice. Goodness and hate cannot coexist by definition. Up to you hey...
@@jmc5335 The answer to that is simple. I not only studied the intricate complexities of the conflict, the historical facts against the plethora of falsities, the theological/cultural depth, all the way down to the nuances and differences between the many tribes (large family groups), their affiliations and interactions vis-à-vis others, as well as the individual regimes, sectarian animosities and so much more.... I spent half my life residing in the mideast. So I kinda know stuff. My reaction to the podcast was such a huge surprise only because every single aspect raised was absolutely spot on. It was the most accurate analysis broadcasted to western audience I've ever encountered. Massive kudos to Sam for his uncompromising dedication to truth. Political correctness is synonymous with blatantly lying. And that's precisely the reason so many in the west are absolutely clueless.
Results in science are not conclusions. People love number like 30,000 without asking what those numbers mean. Given the circumstance is that a lot? A little?
Being intellectually humble is rarely rewarded these days. While I’ll admit this discussion was broadly one-sided it’s always good to nail down some of the facts of the matter when most discussions around this are anything but..
@@MADDcartman There are two sides, and then there's the truth. I prefer the latter. That's what I get here. Sam Harris is one of my most trusted sources of news and reality.
An invasion implies Hamas forces intended to occupy those areas they over ran. October 7th was a raid, the apparent goals which were to obtain hostages and incite a reprisal from the IDF. Mission accomplished.
Refreshing to hear people speak to what’s obvious. Its hard to not think most media is deliberate info campaigns nowadays when such obviousness is ignored.
I don't think this is obvious at all. Like i agree with what is being said, but we are talking about essentially the first war thats being live streamed and a bunch of young people with very limited historical knowledge are rightly horrified by what that looks like.
The numbers are a mess. Most international third parties (including the US etc), accept the ball park of 30,000 - including the gender split within that number (well over half women and children). If the IDF are claiming (as of Feb) that roughly half that number were Hamas fighters/members (12,000), then it is certainly remarkable that close to every man killed was a Hamas fighter, and every other non-combatant death was a women of child. The IDF aren't far off claiming every male adult killed so far was an Hamas fighter/member. That doesn't sound fishy at all.
The treatment of prisoners in Guantanamo were tortured and the officers clearly enjoyed it. They took photos and humiliated them. Did this have a religious reason too? It doesn't need religion for people to act like animals. You just have to dehumanize people. Black people were treated similarly. They were hanged from bridges. Their death was celebrated. It takes dehumanization and not religion!
Well said. While I share Sam's dislike of religion, his disgust of Islam has blinded him morally. It's a shame for someone I otherwise respect to have taken this path of reasoning.
Pretty sure his point is that religion is one vehicle by which people dehumanize other people. He’s not saying it’s the only way. But in the case of October 7th, it’s pretty clear that Hamas is motivated at least to some significant degree by the principles of martyrdom and jihad with Islam. Have you heard the phone call of the Hamas member calling his parents in jubilation using the phone of a Jewish person he just murdered? If not, you should listen to it. He is framing his actions in explicitly religious terms.
I wonder if we would have left Iraq years earlier if the media constantly whined about civilians killed in Iraq. Of course the majority died in the first month. What with all the bombings from the US.
Fantastic podcast. Incredible perspectives on the war. Kudos to Sam digging into the detail and playing a but of devil's advocate. Just so insightful and it really helps you to understand the monumental task bestowed on Israel
It's great. Whilst this guy is stating what he knows to be true as fact, you know that nothing cloudy or uncertain could get through the Making Sense filter, purely by the fact that Sam Harris has had on his podcast, such a diversity of political perspectives on the issue, offering all kinds of contrary opinions to which he respectfully listens and debates. I think he has had on international relations expert Douglas Murray twice now, just for good measure. It is so refreshing that Sam Harris does this. I would hate it if he were to discount all alternative opinions as "moral confusion" and then just have on a succession of people who he agrees with, to throws lob ball questions to, and for him to just restate his opinions to 4 or 5 times over 8 months. Not Sam. I also think it's fresh that he on the one hand presents Hamas as a group of ideologically mad rogue bandits, which was my impression, but then accepts that their actions and the consequences they have on the 2 million people who live in Gaza, is a straight up moral comparison with the actions of Israel, a modern state with one of the most funded militaries in the world. It would be easy to think of the civilians of Gaza as victims of circumstance, and that given Israel's military superiority and potential harm they can do to those civilians, as an actor burdened with unique responsibility, but it's not true. There is no action they could take, less than the burning of Dresden or a bombing of Hiroshima that anybody can morally question, given the ideology of Hamas. Also in this age of disinformation, one could correctly identify that social media and the information landscape gives the potential for the over amplification of niche opinions and be concerned about that... but then to take that too far and decide that all opinions different than your own are purely examples of that phenomenon. Not Sam. He identified it but then proceeds to identify his own potential (unknown to him) blind spots and cautiously have on all kinds of guests. Including, as I mentioned, Douglas Murray twice now. A breath of fresh air! Keep up the good work!
Every media outlet in human history is biased and always will be. Sam's platform is no different. He takes a side, but at least he can articulate WHY he's on that side and defend it when challenged. He's literally famous because he debates people who oppose his views, theologians, Jihadist sympathizers, etc. If all he ever did was sit in an echo chamber, nobody would know who he is.
@@EzraB123 I totally agree, who was your favorite guest who opposes his views on Israel, since the war began? Mine was, as mentioned, Douglas Murray. On the episode with Szeps, Murray said of opponents to Israeli actions that they liked to compare Israel to the Nazis because it makes the holocaust seem more normal and that maybe we weren't so naughty after all." That was a really profound steelmanning. Really moving the debate forward from the usual podcastastan noise! But there is a few to pick from. Who did you like?
@paulrussell1207 Aside from John Spencer, I liked his talk with Yasmine Mohammed. I'm reading her book now. To answer your question, the person who is most at odds with Harris (that he invited) was Rory Stewart. If you go and watch that video, Rory calls him out and accuses him of bigotry. Sam still invited him and still engaged with him, even though they disagreed on a lot. But to be fair, he (nor anyone else) is under any obligation to invite people of her certain political demographic. Most podcasts and most media outlets are partially one-sided, partially echo chambers. I'm okay with Sam because he can he has a history of debating religion and politics publicly, and he's held his ground. Everyone is biased. Bias is fine, so as long as you can justify the views you hold.
@@EzraB123 I listened to it but they were mostly talking about the motivations of jihadism, not Israeli policy. Rory Stewart, despite his history, is very slimy and of a political background and it shows. It would be more interesting if spoke to somebody of a journalistic or a humanitarian background who was recently on ground in Gaza. I am not really sure what an obligation to have people on would really look like to be honest, so that's not really a claim anybody is making here. He is free to have on a guy who thinks he is Santa Claus if he so wishes, but certain guests will make better more useful content than others. I first discovered Sam Harris many, many years ago when he debated Cenk (whatever the guy from TYT is called) and it was clear that Cenk wasn't debating honestly. So I agree his debates were very useful and I like how he tested his ideas by having them in the past too. But since about 2019 or so, he has become so fixated with not "amplifying moral confusion" that he rarely ever has debates anybody, and seems to have lost faith in the public's ability to listen to a debate and make an honest assessment. It's true there is only a few people who can be swung, but he can move the consensus a small bit, some people recognize honesty of hysteria and those who don't will likely have a fixed position anyway. Actually he has so many like-minded people on his podcast on so many topics, that in the last 2 years, he often starts on a bit he said on a previous podcast almost word for word, it's like that uncle at a family gathering telling you a story they told you last Christmas. Think of a movie - free will, the IDF parading people through Tel Aviv etc, etc.
@paulrussell1207 Yeah, that's a fair assessment. I've followed him for years. Sometimes, he's right on the dot. Other times, he isn't. He does repeat arguments and talking points A LOT, but that doesn't bother me that much. I'd say this interview with John is one of his better episodes.
I wonder how many University protestors would continue their protests if they were forced to watch every video recorded by Hamas during their invasion of Israel on Oct. 7.
And if they watching videos of the treatment of Palestinians over the last 75 years? The death and subjugation going on as we speak in the west bank? Don't close your eyes to the inhumane treatment of the Palestinians
They will what-about everything, and deny the video is accurate or true. Theirs is an emotional argument, they are believers in their cause, and facts will not shift their disgusting beliefs.
@@deborahfreedman333 Right. Even if you consider Gaza to be an occupied territory, even if you acknowledge the legitimacy of armed resistance against occupation, nowhere in international law is the deliberate slaughter of civilians ever justified.
This is a very important conversation that will sadly not reach the audience that needs to listen. Thank though for making this available outside the paywall.
Sam, please be like Hitchens: debate anyone!, even the "Tucker Carlsons", the "Tommy Robinsons", etc.. From the far-left to the far-right, from atheist to believers. Only honest and open dialogue will save us from this global insanity.
It's hard to understand how vast numbers in the West do not understand the existential threat, not just to Israel, but to all decent values humanity is, has, over centuries, stumbling it's way to. Of course, on the way, even the best of us will never be perfect, but how such large masses have, and still, support the alternative, worst of our species. Hamas, only the latest, glorified - often specifically, always indirectly, seems to have plumbed unimaginable depths. In my radical youth, we marched to support the likes of Stalin, Mao, but without the information people today have. The fact that Netanyahu and his regime are such an unappealing lot is sad, but irrelevant. No country, group, suffering the October invasion could have responded otherwise. All, much more savagely.
One thing doesn't add up. If Hamas wants to make Israel look bad, why would they record themselves killing and torturing innocent people? Was it a necessary cost in order to provoke Israel to retaliate?
Closest US comparison on the "proximity" point? (Because the full-scale cartel conflict hasn't happened yet, and hopefully won't,) in a somewhat non-obvious way, that would probably have to be the Cuban Missile Crisis. This comparison might actually be unexpectedly informative. Because, what should we have done? The risk of nuclear war could certainly be considered 'completely unacceptable'. So, should our response therefore have been, to allow a strategically advantageous location in our immediate vicinity to be weaponized with nukes? If risking nuclear holocaust is 'unacceptable,' then this would have to have been allowed. There is NO POSSIBLE WAY to preserve the defensive integrity of a nation, if it is deemed 'impermissible' to engage certain, measured offensive strategies (either implied or carried out,) sometimes despite both incurred casualties, and existential risks.
When you grow up in a medieval society you become medieval in your sensibilities. This is what happened to Palestinians to make them so evil. It's a very important lesson that most people know but don't take too much to heart. There are too many people that think you are born either a good or bad person and it isn't that way.
@@lukewilson5846 well the concept of evil is really a religious one which depends on a concept of free will, and I believe in neither. But immoral, bad, completely inhumane? I mean this is the sort of thing I am talking about.
Exactly, so why use “evil” in the first place? Using a religious term undermines your argument that they are a product of their environment (which they very much are). I think Hamas has shown itself to be inhumane but to group all Palestinians (nearly 70% don’t even have fully formed pre-frontal cortexes) under that label is dehumanizing propaganda, pure and simple.
The Israeli state is founded on the forced ejection of Palestinian people from their land, and their continued subjugation as sub human beings, in what is blatantly now an apartheid state. That's pretty f ING medieval
1:00:00, the UN says more children have been killed in Gaza than the sum of all the world conflicts in the past five years. How is that low collateral damage?
The UN says a lot of stuff. It also peddles Islamic teachings in its schools in Gaza. Do we know how many children were killed in Syria? Yemen? Darfur? Iraq with ISIS? I don't believe a word they say.
@@roysherwin9348 I listen to almost all of his podcasts on this subject and listen to a minority of his podcasts on other subjects. I’m curious- Are you a Trump supporter? Have you listened to his videos where he discusses Trump?
I find it interesting that you reference the Battle of Manila. Popular histories describe Okinawa, Iwo Jima and Guadalcanal but not so much Manila. Here is a description by Dr. Duncan Anderson: "MacArthur ruled out air power on the grounds that it was too imprecise...once Sixth Army had been given permission to increase the employment of artillery, it used it with an increasing lack of discrimination until guns were lined up wheel to wheel... The Filipino dead were too numerous to count, but the number was certainly not less than 100,000 people...To MacArthur, the battle had been an embarrassment...He decreed that no mention would be made of the battle in public monuments erected in the Philippines and in the United States..."
The war has been going on for 8 months if israel wanted to commit a genocide it would have happened already. Since 1967 to 2024 Gaza populatuon has grown by 600% from 350,000 to 2.4 million. Does that sound like a genocide to you?
I appreciate this content I haven’t heard anything like it before. Thanks for sharing it. There is not, nor was there ever, a good path forward for Israel. Urban combat comes with collateral damage that goes without saying. Israel, at the beginning of the war, promised to minimize this, but from an outsider looking in, legacy media would have it appear like Israel is indiscriminately killing civilians. However, this podcast makes a solid case against that. I think Israel has the right to defend itself and to root out Hamas, but it comes with responsibilities. Again, there will be civilian casualties in urban combat, but it should be kept to a bare minimum. I now understand because of this podcast, Israel has been doing this to the best of its ability. The IDF is winning the battles but sadly losing the PR war.
The media is interested in emotions and sensation. All media crews in Gaza are local. Hard to win PR against 57 members of the Organization of Islamic Countries. Qatar sponsor Hamas and Al Jazeera and leading western Universities, it also controls 21% of global LNG market.
This is perhaps the most valuable contribution to the conversation about Israel-Gaza since October 7th. Thank you Sam for making this interview publicly available. I hope many people listen to it with an open mind
You need to listen to other people Phil. Try Ezra Klein
Daniel Maté, a composer-lyricist, who is also Jewish, in his response to Brené Brown on Gaza:
"They [the resistence] are the ones who deserve our respect, our alliagence, or at least our decency to shut the f* up and not condemn them until we understand their material conditions"
@@jmc5335Sure, listen to Ezra Klein (an expert of nothing) or an expert on urban warfare... Hmmm.. tough choice
@@UmaU-pg1mxMatè is a psychopath
Lol
Thank you for no pay wall on this one. I’m too proud to get a free account and I’m struggling with money lately. I really do appreciate getting to hear this whole episode.
I understand that. I've been wanting to get an account for almost 3 years, and just can't bring myself to ask for a handout.
@asraarradon4115 You don't even have to ask. You literally just press a button on the website. I hesitated for a while, but there was nothing to it.
@@asraarradon4115 Sam and likely most of his team will be more than fine with it, and also they'll understand you couldn't have done otherwise 😂
They offer it for a reason. They understand some people are going through difficult finical times. Don’t be too proud.
I can afford it and opt for the free subscription. Been doing it for years. The content isn't worth the money and I feel no obligation to enrich those with more money than me. There isn't a single podcast worth paying for that I'm aware of besides Dan Carlin's Hardcore History.
Sadly, the people who need to hear this the most won't listen to it.
They don't want to hear it and it wouldn't matter if they did.
The people who need to hear this most are actually the people who will forget all this the second something more interesting comes along. That is to say, they don't need to hear it. Those who really do need to know it already do know it. The politicians. And we all know exactly why they are pretending to not know the reality of the situation. Gross.
Who are those people?
Yeah well he’s got TDS
@hakanaydn8005 please elaborate?
I pray this interview goes viral. I have been in shock for 6 months that so many people could believe a brutal war against terrorists who use human shields is somehow now a genocide. The obsessive hate people have for the IDF while ignoring and excusing Hamas is insane.
So you think that indiscriminately killing these human shields to get at these terrorists is justified? You do realize the human shields are mostly women and children that don’t want to die right?
I’m with you on that exactly
@@b12deficient24there's no indiscriminate killingm
Dude it's not one or the other. We can condemn both Hamas and the IDF. The fact is, the IDF is killing 30x more innocent life than Hamas. Their war crimes are endless. It just happens to be that one group's war crimes are obvious savagery, while the other group's are more complex and hidden from view, but they are still egregious war crimes nonetheless!
@@atlehman69 did you even watch the video? Obviously not.
Oct 7th was first degree murder. War on Hamas isn't murder. Arabs killed 7 Jews a minute. Are 7 Arabs dying a minute? No.
If Israel was like Hamas there'd be no Arabs alive
"Endless war crimes" is rhetoric. You're just a Jew hating pro-Hamas bigot...
Great podcast - I recommend it to all sane, well adjusted, non social media captured, or religiously compromised folks. Hopefully the world wakes up
All you’re getting is israeli state sponsored propaganda
Daniel Maté, a composer-lyricist, who is also Jewish, in his response to Brené Brown on Gaza:
"They [the resistence] are the ones who deserve our respect, our alliagence, or at least our decency to shut the f* up and not condemn them until we understand their material conditions"
Thank you for sharing this outside of the paywall. I’ve been following John Spencer for years, and he is undoubtedly one of the most well-informed & intellectually honest analysts regarding urban warfare.
This is among the most useful discussions that I've heard since the initial weeks following the terrorist attack and the most in-depth discussion I've encountered about the specifics of what's happening on the ground in Gaza. Thank you for posting it outside of the paywall so that as many people as possible are able to hear.
Shame it’s all IDF propaganda
You obviously prefer terrorist propaganda @@NPCMii
@@NPCMii Are you going to cite anything?
@@NPCMii You're unironically an NPC
@@psmorgan2542Noooo, ad hom so soon?
This conversation needs to be broadcast on primetime! Unfortunately, that won't happen. I'll be sharing this with as many as possible! Thank you!
At minute 1:15:00 they talked about idf killing 4 teenagers walking along without any RPGs or any weapons. Spencer says since idf targeted the teenagers who were not carry any weapons the idf must be correct. Let's say they were soldiers without any weapons, thus defenseless can be killed? Both Spencer and Sam are dumb!
At minute 1:22:00 they are talking about the day after when no more rockets from Gaza. How is Israel going to control 2 million Gazans. Normally for prisions there is 1 guard for every 10 prisoner. So for Gaza a population of 2 million needs a 200k IDF forces to patrol. Let's say each soldier is paid the minimum salary of USD 10 per hour. Which comes to 10x10x365= USD 36 500 per year. For 200k idf soldiers it comes to USD7.3 billion a year. The US Congress will definitely pass the bill.
@everythingandmore5537 huh? What are you talking about? Israel administered gaza for 50 years they didn't need 200k soldiers lol.
@@John-bravoooAll correct, just to be accurate 2005-1967=38.
@@everythingandmore5537
1. It is not a prison.
2. Israel is provided with USA made weapons, it does not get any cash money.
“We just want a ceasefire” says the protestor pretending it is the responsibility of one side to “just stop fighting”
They literally started a war with Israel, now them and their useful idiots are crying when they get a bloody nose.
Its so refreshing hearing someone, who actually knows what he's talking about.
Especially when they validate your world view.
My world view flipped 180 after spending years in a debate group with pro-Palestinian activists. I’ve been on both sides of the fence and spent significant time listening to all sides. After that deliberation I came to the conclusion this world view best reflected reality.
@@NPCMiiYou are a Russian bot, look at your bot-like comment history. Trash takes abound
Because this was one of the few non-far left guests he brought on.
Some facts: US military war fatalities:
WW1: 116 000
WW2: 405 400
Korean war: 38 680
Vietnam war: 58 220
Afghanistan war: 2370
Iraq war: 4500
That was an incredibly important episode that provided much needed clarity and insight. It could have massive positive impact if enough minds encounter it. Share it as much as you can everyone.
It’s anti human israeli propaganda and nothing more bro
What a fantastic speaker. So relevant today with his field of expertise. I listened to him on another podcast but it’s a whole different level with Sam as a host. It’s saddening that such unbiased and important conversations don’t get the deserved attention and hundreds of thousands of views.
Literally just a paid Israeli propagandist
The difference between a terrorist attack and an invasion in terms of perception was very striking.
The biggest crime of the international community is the fact that they made Hamas's strategy of using Human shields not only a viable strategy but also an acceptable one.
So it’s a “crime” when the international community supposedly doesn’t call out the human shield tactics (many do)…but it’s not a crime when the IDF kills civilians being used as said human shields?
Got it.
What can the international community do about that which the Palestinians themselves have not?
@@Resenbrink They could condemn those who use human shields, rather than pretend it is the fault of those Hamas attacked.
@@deborahfreedman333 they do. Even biased organizations like AI have consistently condemned them for it. It‘s just like the Hamas supporting keyboard warriors and university arab cosplayers are very selective in their recognition of what AI condemns.
*Some samples of LAST 20 years:*
Nigeria Boko Haram 350,000 dead
Sudan JEM/Darfur 300,000 dead
Yemen vs Houthis 233,000 dead
Pakistan vs Islamists 50,000 dead
Syria 500,000 dead
South Sudan's 400,000 dead
Ethiopia and Eritrea vs Tigray 600,000 dead
No protests for all these dead.
They are not about people in Gaza, the demonstrations knowingly and unknowingly are in service of other interests.
International players play for their interests.
The international western democracies which are those you actually refer to, suffer from an inherent deficiency of democracies, where the government usually relies on 50%+ of votes , and gaining that + or - depends on a fringe percentage of voters, the loyal base stays loyal and the fringe voters get the power.
This was eye opening. Thank you Sam
I've heard John Spencer elsewhere, but this interview stands out because of the quality of the questions and the generous duration of the conversation.
It also because Sam Harris unlike most podcasters and journalist masters the art of listening.
It was basically an IDF press release 🇵🇸
@@kmg474 No, it was a lecture from a person who knows much more about war than you do. And if you were smart enough, you would have listened and think, but you are unable to make your brainwashed head to do so.
@piege2 Sure, he knows lots about war. The point is, there shouldn't be a war. Especially not one that is being almost exclusively waged against women and children.
@@kmg474 interesting. And where all the men have disappeared, or maybe Gaza consists only of women and children? Or maybe Israeli bombs are so smart that they fall only on the heads of women and children? Does it seem logical to you? By the way, there are updated figures from UN regarding the death toll with details how many different groups are killed and the numbers of women and children have been drastically reduced, but you keep relying on the pro-palestinian propaganda still and spread BS.
As an Army veteran, it was excellent to listen to someone who understands what is happening in this war. This needs to go viral.
Sam Harris is an American treasure. Priceless podcast yet again. John Spencer is informed and superb.
Also a member of the people who benefit from defense spending and war so very very biased
He is anti Christian
@@venicebeachsportsnetwork6677
But can you suggest how any country would respond to the attack?
I thought it was great in 1990 when it seemed we could all disarm, and spend on general benefit... Or all these attacks imaginary?
I really would like your thoughts.
@@willdon.1279 probably not level the infrastructure and buildings of a population of 2 million when Israel gives them like 3 bulldozers for the whole strip. And, that doesn't even get into the fact that they are just making more terrorists. So yeah, not what they ate doing
This is a worthwhile fascinating discussion on the situation in Israel. Thanks Sam, your videos/podcasts are always great.
Some people say that Hamas did what they did as an act of resistance... I support Ukraine 101%. However, if they broke into Russia and did what Hamas did on October 7th, and Zelenski and the Ukrainian people supported this, I would be the first to stop being on their side.
What I don't understand is how some westerners don't have this compulsion when it comes to October 7th, an obvious act of pure evil.
Really good point
Do you view October 7th as an isolated incident?
Ukraine was behind the concert hall massacre in Russia. But... Stay Home, Wash Your Hands, Support Ukraine.
@@Mac-ku3xuhah good one :)
@@Mac-ku3xuhow do you know this?
Truly an unprecedented war an difficult to compare. Hezbollah and the Iranian Quds force complicate an already massively complex war. Israel can not over commit forces against Hamas lest these other adversaries be given tactical advantage should they choose to attack. The nature of potential indirect attacks by artillery weapons demands that Israel reserve enough forces to counter attack all the while fighting in terrain that demands massive amounts of manpower to overpower the enemy.
I feel so damn sorry for Israelis. And Jews around the world.
it is actually recognized by now by the IDF after the recent investigations into that day, that there were 6,000 Gazans (combatants and non) who invaded Israel that day, in around 50 points, I think, across the fence. So - much broader.
People simply do not understand the reality of violence, and thus have wildly unrealistic expectations. This is the same problem we have with videos getting out of violent interactions between the police and people resisting arrest--the average person on the street sees the video and asks "why didn't the police just shoot him in the leg instead of killing him?" Because they only know the sanitized violence of super hero movies.
Really great podcast! Thank you gentlemen!
Thank you for this very informative guest! I wish more people would seek out the facts, but at least you have made them easier to find.
Yes, Israel is losing the PR war in the West. That worries me.
Always hard to sell mass murder isn't it.
no amount of PR can cover up genocide
Because the west's left is self-loathing and is controlling important institutions. Add that to the millions of Muslims allowed to enter the west over the past few decades - and you get a recipe for disaster.
What worries me is that I don’t understand why and how
Crazy to think that cutting food and water from millions of people might make you look bad. 🤔
Hamas doesn't have 200 hostages. They have 2 million.
I'm afraid that is not true. We know that many, many Gazans followed Hamas into southern Israel on 7 Oct to loot. We know many in Gaza were openly celebrating the death and kidnapping of Israelis. We know from released hostages that Gazan civilians were holding them as hostage slaves at their homes, starving them in front of children. We know that Egypt has built a big fat wall to prevent Gazans from being able to enter Egypt. We know that every single poll taken in Gaza shows a huge level of support for Hamas. I don't know if those polls are full of false replies. But even without relying on polls at all, we have plenty of evidence to show huge numbers of Gazans support Hamas.
You thought you cooked with this.
No they voted Hamas in
They had two million human shields and expendable assets, in their view.
@@zilefn9212 Yes you're right. it seems like over 70% of them support such acts. so I would estimate 15-30% of the population being hostage to Hamas and the rest of the populations either ignorance or malice.
This was so informative and really put into word’s what I’ve been feeling about the misconceptions. Love Sam he’s one of the smartest men alive.
😂😂😂😂😂😂
I'm curious about something no one ever seems to ask about the Gaza health ministry: where actually IS this organization?? If most of Gaza has been destroyed, how is the health ministry still fully functional and able to give their minute-by-minute updates?
Reading the Wikipedia page for GHM now. They are a branch of the Hamas government, and are therefore physically based in the tunnels and hideouts of the organizations. They were previously functioning as a network of health professionals in now destroyed hospitals. It’s been shown that around 50% of their data is procured indirectly from un-cited “reliable media sources”. Furthermore around 35% of their mortality claims are based on “incomplete data”.
Easy to do, when numbers are fabricated.
It is not. They make up numbers.
I imagine there's no office building or permanent address, likewise for bunch of other "institutions" It's probably just some guys who are the Ministry of this and that. One day they "work" behind some kitchen table next day the ministry has a meeting -session in a bunker next to a room where hostages are being held.
We have probably different idea what "functional" means :)
Do you remember the 500 assumed dead at al Ahli hospital?
Their number was never subtracted from the overall.
Voices of reason. Much appreciated!
Thanks for helping me understand what's happening.
Thank you. Thanks also for making whole conversation available. I deeply appreciate all you do and offer the world, Sam.
Excellent discussion. I just wish others would open their minds as to what’s going on.
🙏🇬🇧🙏🇬🇧🙏🇬🇧
Thank you for bringing the voice of one of the leading urban warfare experts of our time
Quite a class. You learn more on this podcast than anywhere else on internet about the subject.
This needs to go viral.
I don’t think there is a more qualified person to speak about the way Israel is prosecuting this war in an objective manner. Excellent choice for a guest.
Also important to note that it was very intelligent of Sam to not put this episode behind a paywall. It allows far more people to become educated on how to view the war during a time where there is a lot of confusion around the way Israel is prosecuting the war response. I just hope this gets out to as many people as possible.
Well done.
What makes you think that a man who tells you that Fatah is a terrorist organisation is qualified or objective
@@jmc5335 read the guys resume…
Thank you Sam for this conversation exposing truth and rational logical thinking and helping people understand what is really happening.
Great talk.
Shalom, from Lisbon.
It’s ironic that you say “shalom” when Jews are doing anything but perpetuating peace in the world.
Thank you Sam for another incredible podcast! This is incredible
I think it was the best podcast I've heard on this topic
The conversation at 25:00 about morals and ethics, cultural asymmetry regarding rape- does that still hold up after the rape video at the Israeli detention center and subsequent rioting for the freedom of the offenders, and the right to rape detainees? Even at the govt level this shameful conversation was had for the world to see.
And the Israeli government prosecuted and jailed those soldiers. That's aside from the difference in sheer scale of 1 tortured prisoner vs thousands of brutal rapes and murders. Both are terrible, but pretending that makes both sides the same is just absolutely disgustingly disingenuous.
How can you possibly be comparing these
@@Shmuel420 one video doesn't mean it only happened one time. There are numerous reports, including Dr. Al-Bursch, a well known professor and surgeon. My topic is valid, it's completely on subject.
John Spencer is a deontologist living in a simplistic, utilitarian world. He is 100% correct ethically, though he only hinted at his views in this interview. The most important moral question we should be asking is: What does the world look like if Hamas’s tactics are normalized - where attacking (civilians or military targets) and then falling back behind and under your own civilians is a legitimate way to fight a war and avoid consequences? Is this a world any of us want to live in?
Utilitarians approach the issue as one of the absolute numbers of fatalities or the civilian to combatant ratio. While the latter is somewhat useful in gauging how careful an army is being, fatality figures are the wrong way of looking at war. There is no number or ratio above which a war becomes immoral. Protect the enemy’s civilians as best you can while minimizing the risk to your own people. That’s it.
Thank you, Sam. One can rely on you for a serious, in-depth, honest exploration of what is happening. Your choice of interlocutors is excellent.THANK YOU
Echo chamber😂😂😂😂
Usually it takes me 14 days to listen to one of his videos cuz I have to pause every 4 seconds to look up words. Smooth brains like me appreciate small words videos like this
I think you are way too hard on yourself.
Small words, but exactly well explained.
Amazing. An actual discussion with an actual expert with concrete experience on the matter at hand and similar events in the past. Must watch for every youtuber.
Educated, rational analysis by one of the world's top experts. Thank you.
Thank you Sam for releasing the full episode so we can share. Excellent episode, I wish more in the west had your moral clarity.
Very important episode. Thank you for being a voice of moral clarity in a world gone mad!!!
Best analysis of this war I have ever heard. This thinking should be a common place in the media. Astonishingly, the opposite is being the case,
I wish you would have commented on the refusal of all surrounding Muslim countries to accept even one Palestinian woman and child seeking safe haven from Gaza.
Thank you Sam. Your work is valuable.
Everyone needs to hear this!
Everybody should hear this. One of the most clear sighted, objective and sensible discussions about the Gaza war on the entire internet. Thank you to Sam Harris for making this available to everyone. A genuine public service in a time of turmoil and mental/moral chaos.
If you take Hamas numbers, the ratio is 1 Hamas to 4 civilians. Even that is a good ratio for an urban battle.
Again, we don't look at that ratio. If the numbers of soldiers stay constant, then the ratio depends only on the population size. If the population is big, the ratio is big. If the population is small, the ratio is small.
That's why we look at demographic ratio. What percentage of civilians were killed? What percentage of soldiers were killed? Those are the correct questions.
I don't know why, but most people make that math mistake.
When you consider that'hamas' constitutes the entire civilian infrastructure in Gaza, functionaries, government, utilities.... That number takes on an even worse level.
Also, what f***ING insane level of inhumane, zero empathy can you have when you talk about 4:1 ratio being just fine. That amounts to roughly 28,000 people dead. Where is your humanity?!
@@SiRushBassits more than fine comparetively to any war previouslu fought. Its more than fine when Hamas are deliberately trying to incur more civilian deaths for optics by not letting people leave areas and not providing bomb shelters. The ratio is much closer to 1 in 2 in.amy case, Hamas is lying about those numbers dont be ridiculous.
@@SiRushBasshumanity? Lol. Who converts schools to missile factories and uses children as combatants?
200,000 russians killed in ukraine, where is your humanity?
@@SiRushBass He didn't, and nobody says it is fine! There have been no wars throughout human history, when the civilians have not suffered most. They are just helpless, in 90% of the time. (and in Gaza, specifically excluded from the deep shelters, unlike Israelis) So you believe the latter are guilty because they look after their people. And not use them as victims to convince silly people anyone attacked should just surrender.
@@willdon.1279 "a good ratio,,,". And then you go on to argue that it's ok
Thank you Sam. Great guest and great questions.
24:12 : Sam : 'Can you imagine the reverse case of the IDF dragging non-combantant women and children out of Gaza into Israel and random Israeli celebrating their rape and abuse .'
This is exactly what is happening in the West Bank for years. Selective memory or ill will?Where is your moral landscape now ?
That doesn't happen in the West Bank LOLOLOL. Arabs aren't afraid of Jews. 1400 years of dominating them
Muslims in London are more criminal.
That is a lie, you are doing exactly what Sam and John are talking about, being uneducated and getting your information on tik tok
difficult to overstate just how needed this discussion is.
seperate but sadly related question, Sam have you had any luck in securing Dan Stone for a conversation ?
Great photo.
Whoever does his thumbnails needs a pay rise...
@@5starcommentit’s just a generic stock image of guys on a tank?
Two incredible men discussing the unthinkable. I am British but i would be proud to have Americans like this. Thank you Sam and John.
I love the British.
Gulllible.
At minute 52:00 Spencer talks about Hamas strategy.
1. Hamas never intended to hold territory.
2. Hamas knew they can never defeat IDF.
3. Hamas wanted to win the PR war.
It's funny that they both think Hamas are crazy people that want to die and yet they are somehow doing this genius plan to win the PR war lol
Thx Sam and guest. A good bit of unbiased reasoning and evidence is brought to the fore. This conversation, with its depth of info, needs heard.
Thank you for making this situation much more clear.
I don’t see why Israel should worry more about Palestinians than about Israeli soldiers. Or why Israel shouldn’t simply reclaim Gaza altogether.
Because that would be against international law. Gaza has to be part of a Palestinian state if we are in accordance with the law. Just not under Hamas rule of course.
@@domsnow6418
Neither Gaza nor the west Bank are independent states right now.
And they probably never will be.
Oh wow...
The pristine clarity - morally, factually, historically, technically, militarily, geo-politically....
I'd donate everything and anything of value, monetarily or otherwise for this most precious gem of truth to be aired 24/7 on every single information platform on the planet and live out the rest of my life in blissful poverty.
If only I wasn't already as poor as one can be :(
Blessings on both of you - true and honest gentlemen.
You make the perfect peasant
@@jmc5335 I'll be taking that as a compliment irrespective of the intention
@@PhotonDome Doffing your cap to the lords as they scoff at you.
What makes you think that a man who blames Jews for their own genocide and a man who calls Fatah a terrorist organisation have the moral, factual, historical and geo-political clarity you claim they have?
@@jmc5335 Awww... The truth really hurts once you realise you've been living a lie.
No biggie. You'll get over it.
Overcoming denial is indeed the most challenging phase.
I wish you nothing but goodness on your path ahead.
That said, relinquishing hate requires a concious choice.
Goodness and hate cannot coexist by definition.
Up to you hey...
@@jmc5335 The answer to that is simple.
I not only studied the intricate complexities of the conflict, the historical facts against the plethora of falsities, the theological/cultural depth, all the way down to the nuances and differences between the many tribes (large family groups), their affiliations and interactions vis-à-vis others, as well as the individual regimes, sectarian animosities and so much more....
I spent half my life residing in the mideast.
So I kinda know stuff.
My reaction to the podcast was such a huge surprise only because every single aspect raised was absolutely spot on.
It was the most accurate analysis broadcasted to western audience I've ever encountered.
Massive kudos to Sam for his uncompromising dedication to truth.
Political correctness is synonymous with blatantly lying.
And that's precisely the reason so many in the west are absolutely clueless.
Results in science are not conclusions. People love number like 30,000 without asking what those numbers mean. Given the circumstance is that a lot? A little?
It's very difficult for a layman/average person to admit thst skepticism without being ostracised.
Being intellectually humble is rarely rewarded these days. While I’ll admit this discussion was broadly one-sided it’s always good to nail down some of the facts of the matter when most discussions around this are anything but..
@@MADDcartman There are two sides, and then there's the truth. I prefer the latter. That's what I get here. Sam Harris is one of my most trusted sources of news and reality.
more than 1 is too many unless you're a neocon psycho like Sam
There comes a time when the number is so high that there is no justification.
An invasion implies Hamas forces intended to occupy those areas they over ran. October 7th was a raid, the apparent goals which were to obtain hostages and incite a reprisal from the IDF. Mission accomplished.
The protesters demand "ceasefire", but not hostages being freed😮
And shouting Globalize the Intifada simultaneously. SMH😂
I can't understand why so many people haven't seen, can't accept or don't agree with these simple truths.
Refreshing to hear people speak to what’s obvious. Its hard to not think most media is deliberate info campaigns nowadays when such obviousness is ignored.
Like what?
I don't think this is obvious at all. Like i agree with what is being said, but we are talking about essentially the first war thats being live streamed and a bunch of young people with very limited historical knowledge are rightly horrified by what that looks like.
The media should know better. Their bias has been disturbing and disappointing.
Spencer is a bona fide expert, one of the only people who actually knows what he’s talking about and will say it.
Just as a bookmark for myself, it feels like things get somewhat unstuck regarding “numbers” at around 1:00:00
The numbers are a mess. Most international third parties (including the US etc), accept the ball park of 30,000 - including the gender split within that number (well over half women and children). If the IDF are claiming (as of Feb) that roughly half that number were Hamas fighters/members (12,000), then it is certainly remarkable that close to every man killed was a Hamas fighter, and every other non-combatant death was a women of child. The IDF aren't far off claiming every male adult killed so far was an Hamas fighter/member. That doesn't sound fishy at all.
Bookmark for the world.
You mean the double standard?
What exactly are you confused about?
@@Agtsmirnoff math
John spenser was clear consice and knowledgeable. Good questions from Harris. Great podcast. Thanks!
The treatment of prisoners in Guantanamo were tortured and the officers clearly enjoyed it. They took photos and humiliated them.
Did this have a religious reason too? It doesn't need religion for people to act like animals. You just have to dehumanize people.
Black people were treated similarly. They were hanged from bridges. Their death was celebrated.
It takes dehumanization and not religion!
Well said. While I share Sam's dislike of religion, his disgust of Islam has blinded him morally. It's a shame for someone I otherwise respect to have taken this path of reasoning.
The photos you refer to were not taken at Guantanamo.
Pretty sure his point is that religion is one vehicle by which people dehumanize other people. He’s not saying it’s the only way. But in the case of October 7th, it’s pretty clear that Hamas is motivated at least to some significant degree by the principles of martyrdom and jihad with Islam. Have you heard the phone call of the Hamas member calling his parents in jubilation using the phone of a Jewish person he just murdered? If not, you should listen to it. He is framing his actions in explicitly religious terms.
One religion in particular has dehumanizing ideas on multiple groups including the Jews.
@@SiRushBassislam is disgusting...
At minute 55:00 Spencer says students demonstrations are stupid.
And he's right 😌
@youziyi
Dis he go to an ivy league university?
Thanks Sam, for hosting normal people, not like many other news, Hosts, we need more people like you and your guest.
Thank you so much for a deep and extensive conversation!
Thanks so much for another great episode, and for everything you do.
Based. Most of them don't even know which river or sea they are chanting about.
22 breach sites? 29 is what I heard earlier on. Wonder if it can be definitively counted and whether it includes tunnels and sea-borne teams.
Civilian casualties have been a serious issues in many wars , from Hiroshima to Iraq
I wonder if we would have left Iraq years earlier if the media constantly whined about civilians killed in Iraq.
Of course the majority died in the first month. What with all the bombings from the US.
Fantastic podcast. Incredible perspectives on the war. Kudos to Sam digging into the detail and playing a but of devil's advocate.
Just so insightful and it really helps you to understand the monumental task bestowed on Israel
It's great. Whilst this guy is stating what he knows to be true as fact, you know that nothing cloudy or uncertain could get through the Making Sense filter, purely by the fact that Sam Harris has had on his podcast, such a diversity of political perspectives on the issue, offering all kinds of contrary opinions to which he respectfully listens and debates.
I think he has had on international relations expert Douglas Murray twice now, just for good measure. It is so refreshing that Sam Harris does this. I would hate it if he were to discount all alternative opinions as "moral confusion" and then just have on a succession of people who he agrees with, to throws lob ball questions to, and for him to just restate his opinions to 4 or 5 times over 8 months. Not Sam.
I also think it's fresh that he on the one hand presents Hamas as a group of ideologically mad rogue bandits, which was my impression, but then accepts that their actions and the consequences they have on the 2 million people who live in Gaza, is a straight up moral comparison with the actions of Israel, a modern state with one of the most funded militaries in the world. It would be easy to think of the civilians of Gaza as victims of circumstance, and that given Israel's military superiority and potential harm they can do to those civilians, as an actor burdened with unique responsibility, but it's not true. There is no action they could take, less than the burning of Dresden or a bombing of Hiroshima that anybody can morally question, given the ideology of Hamas.
Also in this age of disinformation, one could correctly identify that social media and the information landscape gives the potential for the over amplification of niche opinions and be concerned about that... but then to take that too far and decide that all opinions different than your own are purely examples of that phenomenon. Not Sam. He identified it but then proceeds to identify his own potential (unknown to him) blind spots and cautiously have on all kinds of guests. Including, as I mentioned, Douglas Murray twice now. A breath of fresh air! Keep up the good work!
Every media outlet in human history is biased and always will be. Sam's platform is no different. He takes a side, but at least he can articulate WHY he's on that side and defend it when challenged.
He's literally famous because he debates people who oppose his views, theologians, Jihadist sympathizers, etc. If all he ever did was sit in an echo chamber, nobody would know who he is.
@@EzraB123 I totally agree, who was your favorite guest who opposes his views on Israel, since the war began?
Mine was, as mentioned, Douglas Murray. On the episode with Szeps, Murray said of opponents to Israeli actions that they liked to compare Israel to the Nazis because it makes the holocaust seem more normal and that maybe we weren't so naughty after all." That was a really profound steelmanning. Really moving the debate forward from the usual podcastastan noise!
But there is a few to pick from. Who did you like?
@paulrussell1207 Aside from John Spencer, I liked his talk with Yasmine Mohammed. I'm reading her book now.
To answer your question, the person who is most at odds with Harris (that he invited) was Rory Stewart. If you go and watch that video, Rory calls him out and accuses him of bigotry. Sam still invited him and still engaged with him, even though they disagreed on a lot.
But to be fair, he (nor anyone else) is under any obligation to invite people of her certain political demographic. Most podcasts and most media outlets are partially one-sided, partially echo chambers. I'm okay with Sam because he can he has a history of debating religion and politics publicly, and he's held his ground.
Everyone is biased. Bias is fine, so as long as you can justify the views you hold.
@@EzraB123 I listened to it but they were mostly talking about the motivations of jihadism, not Israeli policy. Rory Stewart, despite his history, is very slimy and of a political background and it shows. It would be more interesting if spoke to somebody of a journalistic or a humanitarian background who was recently on ground in Gaza.
I am not really sure what an obligation to have people on would really look like to be honest, so that's not really a claim anybody is making here. He is free to have on a guy who thinks he is Santa Claus if he so wishes, but certain guests will make better more useful content than others.
I first discovered Sam Harris many, many years ago when he debated Cenk (whatever the guy from TYT is called) and it was clear that Cenk wasn't debating honestly. So I agree his debates were very useful and I like how he tested his ideas by having them in the past too.
But since about 2019 or so, he has become so fixated with not "amplifying moral confusion" that he rarely ever has debates anybody, and seems to have lost faith in the public's ability to listen to a debate and make an honest assessment. It's true there is only a few people who can be swung, but he can move the consensus a small bit, some people recognize honesty of hysteria and those who don't will likely have a fixed position anyway.
Actually he has so many like-minded people on his podcast on so many topics, that in the last 2 years, he often starts on a bit he said on a previous podcast almost word for word, it's like that uncle at a family gathering telling you a story they told you last Christmas. Think of a movie - free will, the IDF parading people through Tel Aviv etc, etc.
@paulrussell1207 Yeah, that's a fair assessment. I've followed him for years. Sometimes, he's right on the dot. Other times, he isn't. He does repeat arguments and talking points A LOT, but that doesn't bother me that much.
I'd say this interview with John is one of his better episodes.
I wonder how many University protestors would continue their protests if they were forced to watch every video recorded by Hamas during their invasion of Israel on Oct. 7.
I‘m sure many of them would revel in their antisemitic glee
You can protest the ongoing humanitarian crisis without supporting Hamas.
And if they watching videos of the treatment of Palestinians over the last 75 years? The death and subjugation going on as we speak in the west bank? Don't close your eyes to the inhumane treatment of the Palestinians
They will what-about everything, and deny the video is accurate or true. Theirs is an emotional argument, they are believers in their cause, and facts will not shift their disgusting beliefs.
@@deborahfreedman333 Right. Even if you consider Gaza to be an occupied territory, even if you acknowledge the legitimacy of armed resistance against occupation, nowhere in international law is the deliberate slaughter of civilians ever justified.
This is a very important conversation that will sadly not reach the audience that needs to listen. Thank though for making this available outside the paywall.
Sam, please be like Hitchens: debate anyone!, even the "Tucker Carlsons", the "Tommy Robinsons", etc..
From the far-left to the far-right, from atheist to believers. Only honest and open dialogue will save us from this global insanity.
Please talk to Mosab yousef, Sam. His life story will teach you all you need to know about that region. It is far worse than I even imagined.
Such great questions and observations! Everyone should listen to this highly informative and insightful podcast, especially Israel’s detractors.
It's a tidal wave directed at Israelis and Jews. I'm disappointed in Biden.
Thank you for this.
It's hard to understand how vast numbers in the West do not understand the existential threat, not just to Israel, but to all decent values humanity is, has, over centuries, stumbling it's way to.
Of course, on the way, even the best of us will never be perfect, but how such large masses have, and still, support the alternative, worst of our species. Hamas, only the latest, glorified - often specifically, always indirectly, seems to have plumbed unimaginable depths.
In my radical youth, we marched to support the likes of Stalin, Mao, but without the information people today have. The fact that Netanyahu and his regime are such an unappealing lot is sad, but irrelevant. No country, group, suffering the October invasion could have responded otherwise. All, much more savagely.
One thing doesn't add up. If Hamas wants to make Israel look bad, why would they record themselves killing and torturing innocent people? Was it a necessary cost in order to provoke Israel to retaliate?
They know that Muslims abroad won't care. What's depressing though is that progressives don't seem to either.
The videos were for jews. They knew the world would play it down as Jewish suffering is always minimized.
They know the Muslim world won't rebuke them for it.
Sadly it seems progressives won't either. Which is surprising.
Closest US comparison on the "proximity" point? (Because the full-scale cartel conflict hasn't happened yet, and hopefully won't,) in a somewhat non-obvious way, that would probably have to be the Cuban Missile Crisis.
This comparison might actually be unexpectedly informative. Because, what should we have done? The risk of nuclear war could certainly be considered 'completely unacceptable'. So, should our response therefore have been, to allow a strategically advantageous location in our immediate vicinity to be weaponized with nukes? If risking nuclear holocaust is 'unacceptable,' then this would have to have been allowed.
There is NO POSSIBLE WAY to preserve the defensive integrity of a nation, if it is deemed 'impermissible' to engage certain, measured offensive strategies (either implied or carried out,) sometimes despite both incurred casualties, and existential risks.
Sam is a World Champion Pseudo intellectual.
Sammy The Pseudo Harris.
You poor poor brainwashed thing.
When you grow up in a medieval society you become medieval in your sensibilities. This is what happened to Palestinians to make them so evil. It's a very important lesson that most people know but don't take too much to heart. There are too many people that think you are born either a good or bad person and it isn't that way.
You think the average Palestinian is “evil”?
Half of Palestine are children. How are children evil?
@@lukewilson5846 well the concept of evil is really a religious one which depends on a concept of free will, and I believe in neither. But immoral, bad, completely inhumane? I mean this is the sort of thing I am talking about.
Exactly, so why use “evil” in the first place? Using a religious term undermines your argument that they are a product of their environment (which they very much are).
I think Hamas has shown itself to be inhumane but to group all Palestinians (nearly 70% don’t even have fully formed pre-frontal cortexes) under that label is dehumanizing propaganda, pure and simple.
The Israeli state is founded on the forced ejection of Palestinian people from their land, and their continued subjugation as sub human beings, in what is blatantly now an apartheid state. That's pretty f ING medieval
1:00:00, the UN says more children have been killed in Gaza than the sum of all the world conflicts in the past five years. How is that low collateral damage?
The UN says a lot of stuff. It also peddles Islamic teachings in its schools in Gaza. Do we know how many children were killed in Syria? Yemen? Darfur? Iraq with ISIS? I don't believe a word they say.
Thats a blatant lie, considering more 10 times the number of people have died in Syria in that time than people in Gaza.
This has to be the best, non biased, balanced, nuanced discussion on the Hamas war to date. Thank you for making the full conversation available.
I’m a Christian conservative. I find myself listening to Sam Harris fairly often.
Out of curiosity- how many of his listeners are in the same boat?
Nope, I’m an atheist lefty, but I enjoy open-minded, rational and calm discussions with anyone! Hope you have a great day 😊
Same, but just on this subject
@@beattzzz You too! My guess is his listeners have a lot of viewpoints/perspectives, but almost all are open-minded.
@@roysherwin9348 I listen to almost all of his podcasts on this subject and listen to a minority of his podcasts on other subjects.
I’m curious- Are you a Trump supporter? Have you listened to his videos where he discusses Trump?
@lukerenner134 I would like to see Vivek R. or Ron DeSantis in the White House. No, I haven't listened to those podcasts.
Keep those PSAs coming Sam. The world's trajectory is truly disturbing
I find it interesting that you reference the Battle of Manila. Popular histories describe Okinawa, Iwo Jima and Guadalcanal but not so much Manila. Here is a description by Dr. Duncan Anderson: "MacArthur ruled out air power on the grounds that it was too imprecise...once Sixth Army had been given permission to increase the employment of artillery, it used it with an increasing lack of discrimination until guns were lined up wheel to wheel... The Filipino dead were too numerous to count, but the number was certainly not less than 100,000 people...To MacArthur, the battle had been an embarrassment...He decreed that no mention would be made of the battle in public monuments erected in the Philippines and in the United States..."
Brilliant as always. Sam is a shining light on a world of moral blindness
Yes, he's shining a big beacon of blood thirsty, genocidal light all over this conversation 😂😂😂😂
The war has been going on for 8 months if israel wanted to commit a genocide it would have happened already. Since 1967 to 2024 Gaza populatuon has grown by 600% from 350,000 to 2.4 million. Does that sound like a genocide to you?
@da3v1ls93 No, Israel is being watched by the world, so it would never simply nuke Gaza. Tbey are moving towards their aim, which is to anex Gaza.
@@kmg474do you know about history? They pulled out of Gaza in 2005. In 2006 Hamas were voted into power. This isn't going very well for you is it?!
@da3v1ls93 I don't know why you think that what you've stated here refutes anything I've said.
I appreciate this content I haven’t heard anything like it before. Thanks for sharing it. There is not, nor was there ever, a good path forward for Israel. Urban combat comes with collateral damage that goes without saying. Israel, at the beginning of the war, promised to minimize this, but from an outsider looking in, legacy media would have it appear like Israel is indiscriminately killing civilians. However, this podcast makes a solid case against that. I think Israel has the right to defend itself and to root out Hamas, but it comes with responsibilities. Again, there will be civilian casualties in urban combat, but it should be kept to a bare minimum. I now understand because of this podcast, Israel has been doing this to the best of its ability. The IDF is winning the battles but sadly losing the PR war.
The media is interested in emotions and sensation.
All media crews in Gaza are local.
Hard to win PR against 57 members of the Organization of Islamic Countries.
Qatar sponsor Hamas and Al Jazeera and leading western Universities, it also controls 21% of global LNG market.
Sam, how about bringing John Mearsheimer or Rashid Khalidi for other side of the argument?
That would be a disaster for Sam as they would break his mind with the truth.
@@kmg474 I suspect you’re right
Lol. There isn't one.
Israel is fighting in self defense and Hamas is evil. Anyone who disagrees is delusional.
@@kmg474mearsheimer knows nothing about asymmetrical warfare. He is a political scientist, not a soldier. Is Edward Said even alive?
@@John-bravooo A political scientist is precisely who is needed to give context and background to this genocide: not a war mongering grunt.