Kudos for the levels of data! I wonder if Bjorn knew back in 2016 that he would be curating and informing at this level? Every penny of engagement and sponsorship money bjorn gets is - IMO - well earned.
@@KissTamas3 Given 120kmh is 10kmh above the maximum speed limit in the country I live in which is also highly policed, I would be more interested in mixed urban driving efficiency around 60kmh, +/- 20kmh, where most people do most of their driving.
Yeah best range you get on the swap station in 5 minutes and there's complaining too - you can't exit the car to get your stuff from McDonald's- maybe they have to build drive trough for this people while swapping - it gets complicated
Battery in BYD cars has internal launch counter ("Times off full power" visible with obd2 adapter), but is probably not limited to 500 launches as Fisker Ocean.
I should recieve my seal here in UAE (AKA Dubai) soon the cooling system here is upgraded to with stand the heat I will check if it is better or worse in rapid gate
I test-drove the Seal AWD the other day. At first, I was impressed with the build quality, materials and design but then I realized that it delivered poorly on almost any criteria relevant to electric cars. It provides only very little recuperation. There is a laggy response of the „gas“ paddle. A 500PS car maxes out at 180km/h (I live in Germany). After 15mins of quicker driving (160-180km/h) I left the Autobahn to drive back to the dealer. On the exit, it started to smell in the car. Some kind of electric overheating smell I figured. Got back on the Autobahn, accelerated and, oops, the car had lost 50% of its power! A power cut-back at an SoC of 75%? After 15mins of quicker driving??? It is a shame that a car manufacturer and one of the largest battery producers in the world with a deep vertical integration seems to be unable to come up with decent EMS and BMS.
At 600 V, I wouldn't expect to see that kind of thermal issue with the Blade battery. BYD is taking the higher voltage approach I hoped GM would have taken with their 85 kWh Ultium packs (running 120s2p instead of 80s3p), but it looks like the Blade is still encountering a similar thermal dip around 40% that Ultium can see despite the Blade pack only pulling about half the current. Of course, it helps that GM added battery preconditioning to their navigation, so the Ultium profile should be more repeatable.
@@bjornnyland True. The individual cells are under the same stress at a given charging speed, but all things being equal, there would be less internal heat/resistance at the pack level unless the automaker cheaped out on cable and busbar materials and sizing.
Nice comparison 👍 Would not declare the MG4 the winter though, due its smaller battery. kWh added over a fixed timeframe of 25 Min would be more fitting maybe, if available by carscanner. Then it’s even possible to map that to the consumption measured and km added in that timeframe.
It is hard to belive those temparature readings on the MG are even correct, they didn't appear to change much or go over 20 degrees. The Tesla was probably warmer than the BYD, if anything.
Bjorn, need some advice… I have 2018 model 3 long range rear wheel drive. No home charging at the moment. Strictly super charger. which is better for battery? Currently I charge at a 72kw charger that holds 74ish kw all the way to 80-85%. Or should I charge at a 250kw bc I notice that in this video that the speeds are slower on this hpc at 70-80 soc than on the slower 72kw charger
If the Tesla LFP battery benefits from being cold when charging at a Supercharger, then why does Tesla still pre-heat the battery, eventhough the environment is relatively warm at 20 C? It almost seems that we should not allow the LFP battery to pre-heat if we are not located in a location with ice and snow.
They probably don't dare cooling it down too much because LFP has the optimal capacity under (edit: over) 30C, and they have super high delta so they need that margin
@@davidstud3952delta is difference between Temp min and Temp max. On LFP batteries you usually hava a delta of 10-15 degrees Celsius. And to have a good charging session you need the Temp min higher than 30 degrees and Temp max lower than 50 degrees. And big delta gives you a very small margin between cold gate and hot gate.
False, the BYD battery can charge faster than most NMC batteries (see Model Y with the same battery, 20minutes 10%-80%), BYD just doesn't have the cooling to make it work.
@@florian_spdl BYD LFP can tolerate more cycles and be more durable (in theory) but its charging is not faster than NMC. It is just average to slightly below average. Model Y is known to charge decently fast with any battery
@@florian_spdlModel Y BYD is a best case, when you have a very good HVAC system, and even in this case, the battery is small, from 10%-80% you will charge around 40-42kWh in 20 min. This gives you an average speed of 120-125kW. Porsche Tycan facelift with NMC can charge from 10-80% in 18 minutes and will add into the battery around 70-73kWh. This will give you an average speed of 230-240kW.
@@Manu-P8 Zeekr 001 Facelift with Shenxing battery which is a LFP chemistry can charge 10-80% in 11.5 minutes with avg of 348kw. Also top charging speed of 546kw !
It would fit that BYD's blade batteries have poor cooling, cooling systems add thickness and their selling point is being thin. I think I'd prefer a flatter curve at a lower level, like 100kw from 0 to 80% but there's no way to limit charge speed AFAIK
@@David_Polak The BYD seemed to generally be cooler than the Tesla in the video over its charging curve and they both got to about 90% in the same time.
Baffling how BYD seems incapable of matching Tesla charging curve of BYD's own blade battery. At worst, should apply some old fashion reverse engineering
Charging rate might be impacted by more stuff (like efficacy of battery management and cooling) ... someone the other stuff has had a LOT of Tesla 1st-principles and money-spent-on-this-deliberately approach which is sometimes in real tension with high volume production.
Yes the bastard child of the 400V and 800V architectures XD. (probably because it's a LFP battery and each cell is giant, they probably will need it be either 300V or 600)
@@miraphycs7377 Seems like they charge at low amps compared to the 400V cars. Also, the whole charging behavior is strange. All others lock the charging voltage close to End-of-charge voltage and reduce Amps to keep it there. The Seal is completely different...
Big fan of Tesla's way of charging. It really looks like Apple's charging. They start fast and then slow down to keep the battery in good condition for longer. This way your battery health is well as well as having battery if you need it quick
Samsung's battery health is much longer. >5y Galaxy Note 10+ 86% (iPhone would be dead by now) & S23 Ultra >99% after 2y. Apple is better at marketing (iFooling)
@@DimitarBerberu Depends. The Max and the Plus phones are very similar Samsung when it comes to battery size. Samsung is also good at sustaining the battery health. The smaller iPhones have issues with the battery health overtime as the size is very small
@@napobg6842 iOS is more restricted OS. Samsung phones have more pixels, many more features (S-Pen, file system, parallel multi-window, AI, etc) that can affect battery life. On top of that Android is more scalable/universal & therefore not as optimised for 1 type of device as iPhones & Samsung still manage to get on top with faster charging (not as fast as the top Chinese brands) & very long life cycle. The limitations of iPhones start to show with AI requiring more processing & larger RAM (that also needs extra battery). Similarly, BYD as battery experts, care for battery health & it's still early to assess in longer lifetime. I would like to start with sodium battery that is more flexible for production & maintenance (with new development happening progressively)
@@bjornnyland ok, because intuitively it felt like that would be the case. Sorry for my ignorance. Could you please explain why it isn't so (if possible in a few lines)?
I love your commentary on these charging tests but the MG should not be there. Let's take an extreme example how long would it take your garden hose to fill up a 64 liter bucket versus a 50 liter bucket? I think the 64 liter bucket would definitely win.
or in the winter. LFP chemistry is known to be not as good as NMC in the winter. But I guess stop and go city traffic in the coastal chinese city it is ok
@@miraphycs7377 what is not so good about it in the winter? less range or coldgating? i also found some articles that lfp has a wider operating temperature than other architectures 😅
@@robinw944 well its clearly not the case if you noticed cheaper or base model tesla and others have lfp while their higher-end/high-performance ones have nmc chemistry
Well maybe ... OK... probably not game over ... but finally some real competition! So good news someone else will start keeping Tesla (even more) on the leading edge.
@@aidanapwordI mean the will survive possible,but becoming fast irrelevant!The VolvoEX30 sells now nearly as much as the Modell Y in Europa!Tesla Sales have collapst 34% in Europe too!
@@BrunoHeggli-zp3nl yes, we will see. But if I had 5 GBP for every time I have read "Tesla killer" in the last 9 years I would probably be able to go part time.
@@BrunoHeggli-zp3nlEx30 is the new kid on the block - so having better sales #s makes sense. I'm not a Tesla fan by any means, but Tesla were newer the fastest charging cars from 10 to 80/90%. Their mix of efficiency and relatively fast charging to 55-60% have made them be among the fastest cars in thr 1000km challenge
Kudos for the levels of data!
I wonder if Bjorn knew back in 2016 that he would be curating and informing at this level?
Every penny of engagement and sponsorship money bjorn gets is - IMO - well earned.
Finally, i have been waiting for someone (you) to test the charging of that thing.
Could you add range added to these comparisons? I think that what matters at the end. How long does it take to add 100/150/200 km range?
That is a good idea, but challenge is to use efficiency in similar conditions. Adding start and end voltage could also be cool, although a it nerdy.
Sure. Bjørn has that info anyway. I rekon to use the 120km/h figures as no one (exept him) drives at 90 for 100s of kilometres.
@@KissTamas3 Given 120kmh is 10kmh above the maximum speed limit in the country I live in which is also highly policed, I would be more interested in mixed urban driving efficiency around 60kmh, +/- 20kmh, where most people do most of their driving.
Yeah best range you get on the swap station in 5 minutes and there's complaining too - you can't exit the car to get your stuff from McDonald's- maybe they have to build drive trough for this people while swapping - it gets complicated
@@KissTamas3I know several that don't go 120 in their EV because it will mean additional charging stops on longer journeys.
Battery in BYD cars has internal launch counter ("Times off full power" visible with obd2 adapter), but is probably not limited to 500 launches as Fisker Ocean.
I should recieve my seal here in UAE (AKA Dubai) soon the cooling system here is upgraded to with stand the heat
I will check if it is better or worse in rapid gate
But if the cooling is insufficient on a lower level it shouldn't matter that much... Will be interesting to see if you get different results.
I test-drove the Seal AWD the other day. At first, I was impressed with the build quality, materials and design but then I realized that it delivered poorly on almost any criteria relevant to electric cars. It provides only very little recuperation. There is a laggy response of the „gas“ paddle. A 500PS car maxes out at 180km/h (I live in Germany). After 15mins of quicker driving (160-180km/h) I left the Autobahn to drive back to the dealer. On the exit, it started to smell in the car. Some kind of electric overheating smell I figured. Got back on the Autobahn, accelerated and, oops, the car had lost 50% of its power! A power cut-back at an SoC of 75%? After 15mins of quicker driving??? It is a shame that a car manufacturer and one of the largest battery producers in the world with a deep vertical integration seems to be unable to come up with decent EMS and BMS.
This just makes me glad I opted for my 2024 Polestar 2 long range single motor.
I wasn't aware that the Polestar 2 actually charges better than the Model 3!
Super that you uncover such things!
At 600 V, I wouldn't expect to see that kind of thermal issue with the Blade battery. BYD is taking the higher voltage approach I hoped GM would have taken with their 85 kWh Ultium packs (running 120s2p instead of 80s3p), but it looks like the Blade is still encountering a similar thermal dip around 40% that Ultium can see despite the Blade pack only pulling about half the current. Of course, it helps that GM added battery preconditioning to their navigation, so the Ultium profile should be more repeatable.
General misconception that higher pack voltage means less internal resistance.
@@bjornnyland True. The individual cells are under the same stress at a given charging speed, but all things being equal, there would be less internal heat/resistance at the pack level unless the automaker cheaped out on cable and busbar materials and sizing.
the temperature and rapid gate explains why it's not a suitable vehicle for those that need or want to speed up
Nice comparison 👍 Would not declare the MG4 the winter though, due its smaller battery. kWh added over a fixed timeframe of 25 Min would be more fitting maybe, if available by carscanner. Then it’s even possible to map that to the consumption measured and km added in that timeframe.
Now you'd just better watch the 1000km tests.
You can do this yourself, for most cars, using Bjorn's Google shieeeeeeeeet.
It is hard to belive those temparature readings on the MG are even correct, they didn't appear to change much or go over 20 degrees. The Tesla was probably warmer than the BYD, if anything.
LFP is different, Normally seal can charge max 150KW until SOC reach 85%. even in Thailand can charge 120KW until 85% SOC (Max output charger here).
I would like to se a realtime stopwatch on these charging tests. It is nice to have a time reference as to when the soc reaches 60 and 80%
Look at Polestar. Timer there.
Björn, planning to test the Tavascan ?
Bjorn, need some advice… I have 2018 model 3 long range rear wheel drive. No home charging at the moment. Strictly super charger. which is better for battery? Currently I charge at a 72kw charger that holds 74ish kw all the way to 80-85%. Or should I charge at a 250kw bc I notice that in this video that the speeds are slower on this hpc at 70-80 soc than on the slower 72kw charger
It will be also great to include time to charge for 50%, 90%, 100%
Perhaps we can calculate it by dividing batter size to kWt
Interesting to test the MG4 51 with LFP against the 64. That might show if its LFP or thermal management.
TeslaBjørn taught me not to charge to 90% ;-)
Lfp you can charge 100% with no problem
@@yoko_1989 I know. But thats not what I was thinking about. See 1000 km challenges
If the Tesla LFP battery benefits from being cold when charging at a Supercharger, then why does Tesla still pre-heat the battery, eventhough the environment is relatively warm at 20 C? It almost seems that we should not allow the LFP battery to pre-heat if we are not located in a location with ice and snow.
They probably don't dare cooling it down too much because LFP has the optimal capacity under (edit: over) 30C, and they have super high delta so they need that margin
what do you mean with delta?
@@davidstud3952 temperature vs capacity connection
@@davidstud3952 the temperature delta between the minimum and maximum temperatures across all the cells (or maybe even across a single cell)
@@davidstud3952delta is difference between Temp min and Temp max. On LFP batteries you usually hava a delta of 10-15 degrees Celsius. And to have a good charging session you need the Temp min higher than 30 degrees and Temp max lower than 50 degrees. And big delta gives you a very small margin between cold gate and hot gate.
So the Seal is 800V and only charge at 150kW on a 800V charger...isn't that really bad for a battery company?
u are correct. MG 4 on the 64 and 77kwh have superior NMC chemistry not the LFP that the smaller MG 4, Model 3 base or all BYD have.
False, the BYD battery can charge faster than most NMC batteries (see Model Y with the same battery, 20minutes 10%-80%), BYD just doesn't have the cooling to make it work.
@@florian_spdl BYD LFP can tolerate more cycles and be more durable (in theory) but its charging is not faster than NMC. It is just average to slightly below average. Model Y is known to charge decently fast with any battery
@@florian_spdlModel Y BYD is a best case, when you have a very good HVAC system, and even in this case, the battery is small, from 10%-80% you will charge around 40-42kWh in 20 min. This gives you an average speed of 120-125kW.
Porsche Tycan facelift with NMC can charge from 10-80% in 18 minutes and will add into the battery around 70-73kWh. This will give you an average speed of 230-240kW.
@@Manu-P8 you cant compare a 57kWh battery and a 97kWh battery by kWh delivered after 20min. Both are charging at around 3C.
@@Manu-P8 Zeekr 001 Facelift with Shenxing battery which is a LFP chemistry can charge 10-80% in 11.5 minutes with avg of 348kw. Also top charging speed of 546kw !
Nice sharing! btw is there an email for collaboration?
It would fit that BYD's blade batteries have poor cooling, cooling systems add thickness and their selling point is being thin. I think I'd prefer a flatter curve at a lower level, like 100kw from 0 to 80% but there's no way to limit charge speed AFAIK
The poor cooling might come from only having cooling under the batteries, instead in between, like other manufacturers do.
@@David_Polak The BYD seemed to generally be cooler than the Tesla in the video over its charging curve and they both got to about 90% in the same time.
I think my brain went into meltdown...
Baffling how BYD seems incapable of matching Tesla charging curve of BYD's own blade battery.
At worst, should apply some old fashion reverse engineering
Charging rate might be impacted by more stuff (like efficacy of battery management and cooling) ... someone the other stuff has had a LOT of Tesla 1st-principles and money-spent-on-this-deliberately approach which is sometimes in real tension with high volume production.
BYD has different priorities, eg. preserving battery health over speed.
Thanks Bjorn
Is the Seal's battery voltage really 600V? wtf?
Yes the bastard child of the 400V and 800V architectures XD. (probably because it's a LFP battery and each cell is giant, they probably will need it be either 300V or 600)
i mean if it was really 600V I would assume they should charge at over 200kw like Tesla or i4 right?
@@miraphycs7377 Seems like they charge at low amps compared to the 400V cars.
Also, the whole charging behavior is strange. All others lock the charging voltage close to End-of-charge voltage and reduce Amps to keep it there. The Seal is completely different...
@@chengcao418 So how would it charge on 800V chargers?
Big fan of Tesla's way of charging. It really looks like Apple's charging. They start fast and then slow down to keep the battery in good condition for longer. This way your battery health is well as well as having battery if you need it quick
Samsung's battery health is much longer. >5y Galaxy Note 10+ 86% (iPhone would be dead by now) & S23 Ultra >99% after 2y. Apple is better at marketing (iFooling)
@@DimitarBerberu Depends. The Max and the Plus phones are very similar Samsung when it comes to battery size. Samsung is also good at sustaining the battery health. The smaller iPhones have issues with the battery health overtime as the size is very small
@@napobg6842 iOS is more restricted OS. Samsung phones have more pixels, many more features (S-Pen, file system, parallel multi-window, AI, etc) that can affect battery life. On top of that Android is more scalable/universal & therefore not as optimised for 1 type of device as iPhones & Samsung still manage to get on top with faster charging (not as fast as the top Chinese brands) & very long life cycle. The limitations of iPhones start to show with AI requiring more processing & larger RAM (that also needs extra battery).
Similarly, BYD as battery experts, care for battery health & it's still early to assess in longer lifetime. I would like to start with sodium battery that is more flexible for production & maintenance (with new development happening progressively)
A lot easier for the MG to reach 90% due to its much smaller battery
No, it's not.
@@bjornnyland ok, because intuitively it felt like that would be the case. Sorry for my ignorance. Could you please explain why it isn't so (if possible in a few lines)?
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I love your commentary on these charging tests but the MG should not be there. Let's take an extreme example how long would it take your garden hose to fill up a 64 liter bucket versus a 50 liter bucket? I think the 64 liter bucket would definitely win.
It‘s a mess that BYD is not able to handle the rapid gate… with this long charging periods the car is not fit for long distance trips
or in the winter. LFP chemistry is known to be not as good as NMC in the winter. But I guess stop and go city traffic in the coastal chinese city it is ok
@@miraphycs7377 what is not so good about it in the winter? less range or coldgating? i also found some articles that lfp has a wider operating temperature than other architectures 😅
@@robinw944 well its clearly not the case if you noticed cheaper or base model tesla and others have lfp while their higher-end/high-performance ones have nmc chemistry
Wow this is horrible,Game over for Tesla!
Well maybe ... OK... probably not game over ... but finally some real competition!
So good news someone else will start keeping Tesla (even more) on the leading edge.
@@aidanapwordI mean the will survive possible,but becoming fast irrelevant!The VolvoEX30 sells now nearly as much as the Modell Y in Europa!Tesla Sales have collapst 34% in Europe too!
@@aidanapwordTesla just doesnt play a big game anymore!
@@BrunoHeggli-zp3nl yes, we will see. But if I had 5 GBP for every time I have read "Tesla killer" in the last 9 years I would probably be able to go part time.
@@BrunoHeggli-zp3nlEx30 is the new kid on the block - so having better sales #s makes sense. I'm not a Tesla fan by any means, but Tesla were newer the fastest charging cars from 10 to 80/90%. Their mix of efficiency and relatively fast charging to 55-60% have made them be among the fastest cars in thr 1000km challenge
Its nice that you can make a good living from TH-cam,but men what a extrem Boring Subject you have to Talk about all the time!Depression!
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