What hope do atheists have?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 มิ.ย. 2024
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A special thank you to Malcolm Arnold Academy for hosting the dialogue: www.malcolmarnoldacademy.co.uk/
Likewise, a special thank you to OCCA The Oxford Centre for Christian Apologetics for arranging the exchange of ideas: www.theocca.org/
One of your best moments, for real. Theists don't get called out on their obsession with permanence nearly often enough. Literally nothing permanent feels hopeful or meaningful to me. The more fragile something is, the more I care.
@@santanoschsantosch3016 Didn't say that. Didn't imply that. Not interested in running for office at this time.
However, if your life span only lasted 1 second, you would care a lot more about that 1 second than you did this most recent second.
I would say that meaning can be found regardless, but typically the more permanent something is, the more we take it for granted.
@@reedclippings8991
Impermanence doesn't necessarily make something more meaningful.
What if you just don't care all that much about life? What if you have grown disillusioned with sensual pleasures and material acquisitions? What if experience seeking has run its course and you just don't give a damn anymore?
I would say if atheism is true, the best you could really hope for if you are anybody who even remotely thinks deeply is a sort of detached serenity where are you aren't exactly overjoyed, but you aren't depressed either. You are just kind of in this OK middle ground. I mean if that's good enough for most atheists, good for you I guess. Other than that, the only thing you really have to look forward to is either the comfort of friends and family, which could end at any point, or thrillseeking.
The only other thing I could think of that would potentially do it for me is finding comfort in militant nationalism. I am a pretty nationalistic Armenian, so I guess I can devote my life to laying the groundwork for the re-conquest of territories that are now within Turkish borders. But even then there is a degree of faith because you have to hope that those who come after you will continue building on the foundation you laid out.
Of all of the above mentioned possibilities, the purest I can think of is finding comfort in friends and family. But if that is ever taken away, I would probably be left depressed and try to find a place to be humanely euthanized.
Oh yeah and morality. I'm not even going to get into the complete shit show that is the secular humanist term "human flourishing".
At a certain point in my life, I asked that exact question. I asked, “If there really exists a good god, would he really reject me from eternal life just because I don’t believe in him? If he is malicious and egotistical, sure. But if he loves me like a son, then he won’t blame me for not believing. He will actually understand my heart.”
When I realized that, I was able to actually start living. Thank you for putting it so beautifully.
I’m an atheist, but there’s really no way of knowing how an ultimately good being would make his judgment on who gets eternal life. But if the “ultimately good” attribute is real, then we’ll all get our just dues.
@@thucydides7849 This is where my understanding of fatherly love comes into play. Like, yes, a god might have an entirely different idea of what “good” is, and would judge me according to that idea regardless of what I believe.
But if that idea of good involves damning me to hell because I was not convinced he existed, then that is not actual love. I would never abandon a son because he tried to find his own way and didn’t listen to all my advice. I wouldn’t abandon a son of mine for using their brain and living their life by their own decisions and doing the best they can of their own accord.
Yes, I am attributing my own definition of “Good” to god, but honestly, any god that would damn me to hell for finding my own way through life without worrying too much about the next one is just not a good father (according to me), and therefore is not worthy of my respect, let alone my worship.
This idea led me away from Mormonism and Christianity altogether, because that god simply does not exist in Christian scripture. He demands worship. He demands blind faith. And he will abandon you to your fate if you don’t believe in him. That’s not a god I can worship.
I too am an atheist now. Not because I would refuse to worship a sufficiently good God that made themselves known to me, but because I have yet to meet one at all.
I hope that makes sense, haha. I am not terribly eloquent.
@thucydides7849 And that would make all religions COMPLETELY pointless as it is independent of whether we worship any god or not. This is why being an atheist in the face of zero evidence for a god and that non-intrusive god being just is a rational and logical stance.
@@theodorevibritannia7988 your comment was very vague. If you could say that again I’d appreciate it. But are you under the impression that there is actually “zero” evidence for god? Is your definition of evidence like scientific material evidence? From your view, could a logical argument be evidence for god? Because pretty much no atheist philosophers would say that “No evidence” exists for god. They’d just day the evidence against god outweighs the evidence for god.
@@thucydides7849>Because pretty much no atheist philosophers would say that “No evidence” exists for god. They’d just day the evidence against god outweighs the evidence for god.
That is just so patently false I have to assume you're making a spurious argument.
Your eloquence and charm continues to be an inspiration. Thank you for all that you do.
“We burn the fuel of our lives for a sunrise we will not see.” This is one damn beautiful sentence. Thank you for this, Steve. This was a powerful and passionate speech that warmed my hopeless heart in some way
To be fair it's not his. It's borrowed from Star Wars: Andor. An excellent show by the way.
I remember saying something like thisnto my Christian friend when I told him I was an Atheist. He said that its hopeless. I remember telling him that trying to make the world a better place gives me hope and his response was "That seems very vain".
Ok man, worshipping a god that we do not know exists in hopes for an eternal afterlife with him is not? Making the world a better place for humanity is much more realistic, tbh.
I wouldn't say it's in vain. That's good, but it's irrational with an atheist standpoint
@@desertsand8778 What is "it" (I don't want to assume your unintended meaning)? And why is "it ... irrational from an atheist standpoint"?
@@desertsand8778What about, "I don't believe in a god." Makes it irrational to try to make the world a better place?
@@coreywalker7928 Do not try to argue with them, they are encroached in their worldview and believe everything different must lack meaning, otherwise there own "choice" wouldn't have merit, leading to major cognitive dissonance. Pure mental self-protection, you can not win or even compete against that in a mere online dialogue.
@@coreywalker7928 yes it does
“We burn the fuel of our lives for a sunrise we will never see” damn that line goes hard
Mark Twain nailed it when he said, “I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.” You could even write a comedy about someone who tries to claim damages in their current life for the pain they endured during their pre-existence and failing to make a case for why it was even bad at all, let alone really bad
or as pythons said it you come from nothing you go back to nothing what have you lost nothing :D
Honestly, at 61 and being a long term atheist, the fact that my consciousness and memories will fade and get lost completely at one point kinda makes me feel uncomfortable. It feels like I never will have existed.
@@PlumpClump : yeah, that’s all well said, but I kinda struggling with it all… not that I would want to live forever.
@@PlumpClumpThat seems to violate the conservation laws.
@@janbuyck1
Care homes are mostly nice places.
But before that study Islam.
I find your ability to talk of your belief (non-belief) to a group of believers without putting them down for their beliefs commendable. Very well done. I hope there's a part 2 coming with the Q&A.
Anybody who hopes for an eternal life has obviously not thought about what that entails. I can't think of a worse punishment.
This simple statement of reason and fact is more hopeful than any sermon I’ve ever heard. Well done, sir.
Exactly
Atheists can’t even justify reason itself
As a quick follow up to what I just posted - I first realised this when seeing an atheist debater say that we shouldn’t hold to a belief without sufficient empirical sense data only to see said debater admit in a debate with a Christian that he can’t account for the laws of logic through empiricist grounds. Which made me realise that atheists cannot account for logic and reason whilst priding themselves as being paragons of logic and reason.
Hope: That we can put this Bronze Age worldview behind us once and for all.
Wow. This was an awesome address! I wish we could have watched the Q&A
Next video, i guess!
Hey, a follower all the way from Africa Ghana, and I must say this is one of your best videos
I find you always approach these topics with a great share of compassion and humanity. I salute you.
It's a bizzare existence we're thrust into, I'm writing a chapter about hope and fear for my book on reducing suffering and mental wellbeing, and you Stephen have been one of those who have inspired me most in this strange universe
If we don't believe in the Hogfather, our Sun won't rise in the morning.
Beware the Verruca Gnome, Hairloss Fairy and such like - Terry Pratchett
Sir Pratchett GNU
Great delivery. Public speaking can certainly bring out the jitters, so glad to see you stayed steady and energetic.
Body dies, body rots to dust, the being lives as. It's lived since the beginning of time. .
We are stardust after all
we must create justice and change by our own hands here on earth... good choice of words
You are very well spoken in this public forum - well done Stephan…
I am impressed that such a young man came to conclusions that took me most of my 70 years to arrive at. Great summary. Great thoughts.
Fantastic speech. Makes me proud to be a fellow ape☺
Excellent talk, Stephen. Thanks for all you do!
er, if there is a god, then praying for your team, and they win, makes your team redundant. if god is inspiring my art, then god might as well paint it himself, he doesn't need me. contrary to popular religists thinking, god actually robs life of any meaning. "please god help me overcome" "sure" "thanks i couldn't do it on my own" or "no, you're going to fail" what does god need people for?
as an atheist i can speculate that there is an atheist heaven, an atheist afterlife, and even the possibility that god prefers atheists, and the test is designed to weed out the people who suck up to him, only atheists can act sincerely, i'm not expecting the reward of heaven, i'm not avoiding punishment in hell, i do what i do cos i believe it to be best for me and mine.
jesus cured a leper - humans cured leprosy. and polio, mumps, rubella, whooping cough, hepatitis, meningitis, cholera, chicken pox, smallpox - and more, all the way to fractures and dentistry. god _might_ save _one_ cancer patient if they are_lucky_ humans will eventually cure ALL cancer.
Imagine God's confusion....two sets of rival football club supporters praying for a win in the cup final? He'll be telling all those sick kids to fckn hang on.
I love your last paragraph most of all. We are the only gods that exist. Change is up to us.
@@BriannadaSilva
Change to what end? Secular humanists always talk about "human flourishing".
OK, but human flourishing could be whatever you want it to be.
For example, in my secular humanist society, homosexuality would theoretically be illegal as it is an evolutionary and reproductive dead end.
There would be discrimination against those who do not want to have kids as they would be a drain on the collective community.
There would be laws put in place to encourage women to have at least three children so that the society can sustain itself instead of having a stagnating unsustainable population like so much of the western world.
Transgender's would be put into institutions and subjected to experimentation in order to cure them of the mental illness that is gender dysphoria.
Children would be systematically tested in order to find the ones with high IQs to act as the scientific and innovative class of society. The same would be true for strong kids being chosen for the military and so on with different characteristics of different children.
All of these things would be done in order to have a society that has a sustainable population, or family values and no mental illness or identity issues. That is my definition of human flourishing. And because I believe the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, the few that would be inconvenienced by these policies are simply sacrifices for the greater good of the society flourishing.
That would be my secular humanist society with no appeals to God whatsoever.
For the record, I don't actually really believe in doing any of the above. But if I did, I could justify it by way of secular humanism by saying that liberal atheists promote degeneracy in society while societies based on communal and family values are more prone to flourishing.
I’m disappointed that at the beginning when he said, “Hello my fellow apes, I hope you’re well” that nobody yelled out, “oh my god he said the thing!”
excellent delivery, public speaking shows the amount of preparation, and the prepared combined with the energy of an attentive audience, closest to magic the faithful will ever see
If nothing we do matters, then the only thing that matters is what we do.
I just got done speaking with a few people a couple days ago about this exact thing. While you put it much more succinctly & beautifully than I did, we said the same things. I thoroughly enjoyed this video. As usual.
Congratulations, that was perfect, well thought out @ beautifully delivered. Well timed, articulate @ right on point. Applause 👏 ✌️ 👏
Did you just quote Luthen Rael from Andor, you ABSOLUTELY GORGEOUS MAN OF CULTURE???
Yeah, when we were brainstorming the speech we thought that quote fit so well. Plus we really love the show haha.
This is really beautiful. Thank you Steve!
Yes I agree. We create justice.
I love that Andor reference Stephen. "We burn the fuel if our lives for a sunset we will never see. That is our sacrifice, that is our legacy, that is our hope." Absolutely brilliant.
Well said and spoken! I'm glad your are getting oportunities like this to speak and interact with the public outside you TH-cam channel. Let me add the hope that we might soon be seeing you take your place on the debate stage with theists at some point.
His words spoke directly to my heart, mind and a part of me that never had the clarity to put it all together. This in itself is a gift that we as individuals don’t get to experience often. Well done my fellow human.
"Heaven" would be just a different type of misery from hell. Life is worth living through variety and experience of contrasts: highs and lows, peace and conflict, happiness and sadness. Eternity in some kind of "paradise" would turn into apathy and completely senseless, numb existence.
Hit the nail on the head! The idea that we can't have hope, meaning, or purpose unless it's imposed on us by an invisible magical superbeing is simply too silly to even to rise the level of insulting.
@@het53 We have plenty of hope. We just don't have magical thinking.
Buddhist reincarnation is not that you “receive” a better or worse life, it’s that you will choose a better or worse life which reflects the person have made of yourself. There’s no God punishing you, you are responsible for your own choices.
That’s precisely how the christian describes hell. God doesn’t send you there it’s just the natural consequence of your choice.
@@GodlessCommieSo natural choices with natural concequences lead you to a supernatural place. How does that work?
@@Jon_lad I’m not in support of the idea. I think the belief in an afterlife at all is misguided, let alone one that’s based upon your actions in this life. I’m just trying to accurately represent the people who do believe this stuff more accurately.
@@GodlessCommie Fair enough I just can't work out any logic behind it. I was hoping you could explain.
@@Jon_lad To quote the theist “God works in mysterious ways” lol
Keep up the good work! Big thanks from Downunder.
We must never forget when they coerced the children for use as shields to temporarily and marginally "protect" adults
When who did what?
@@theoutsiderhumanist8159my thoughts exactly lol
Nicely done...
Great use of the Hobbes quote, btw...
and hurrah for the "raging fire" in all of us.
My only recommendation might be to slow your pace so that the cadence of your speech shines through. Your delivery is energetic, yes... focus on pacing to give more power to your strongest arguments. Hitch often used his glasses to get that effect, if memory serves...
And hurrah for the "raging fire" in all of us.
Keep up the good work. 😇
You should have had a 20 minute standing ovation.
I was born in 1960 in the UK and I sometimes wonder if I was born in the sweet spot both geographically and historically. I do hope that the future is bright for the generations to come and that the brighter future is available to anyone wherever they were born …….but I have my doubts. I fear that my generation has so thoroughly screwed things up that the legacy we leave will be a poor one.
It's already beginning. And I am of the generation that will have to face it as an adult. I am not concerned with any God's failure to rectify yet another historical blunder, but rather how I and those around me will get through it alive if even possible. I already feel as if ive lost so much of myself. But it does help to remember this isnt the first time nor the last time a generation of humans will see widespread collapse. And some of them found away. I can only hope i get that same opportunity.
Rationality Rules, Stephen, WOW, excellent!👍💙💙💙🥰✌
Well done!
I've been screwed over my entire life. Much money stolen, catastrophies on my property not my fault, cheated on by women who've given me STDs, lied to by religion causing shunning of me by everyone i knew, several major heart procedures, loss of the use of my hands by nerve damage for years, taken v advantage of by numerous authorities, and I'm still here with no expectations that why karma or god will help me. Currently homeless and facing foreclosure of my home because the insurance company decided i committed fraud destroying my house in a flood from a broken pipe while i was in the hospital. I grew up jw and while i was a great school student i decided to work in a vocation that ruined my body to the point it's difficult just to get out of bed, but you know what, if god were real he could've done way worse to me 3000 or 30000 years ago. I'm ok with howv it goes and one day i might snuff it if I'm too decrepit and tired and i really hope no god decides this guy needs to keep living in some other form. I have no illusions that my eternal fate should be any better or worse than anyone else.
Hope you will live well.
@@santanoschsantosch3016 Why would he? Either there is one, the omnipotent benevolent one y'know, then his state is to his best by definition. Or there isn't, then it'd be pointless. So no surprise here.
what does god have to do with anything he said here? @@santanoschsantosch3016 the video is about god, but this commenter has simply been abused by people. Even if I was in a similar position, yelling at god is the last thing I'd do because it's HUMANS and sheer random bad luck that causes problems. Seriously, we're not anti-theists... we're atheists. Can't blame what doesn't exist.
I will blame the idea of god for many atrocities, but that's no different then blaming capitalism for the horrors it has produced.
@@santanoschsantosch3016Also, if God were real, he _would_ be at fault since he's the cause for everything and could have prevented it, so it would be perfectly warranted to blame him.
It seems like you care more about that than the suffering in the first place!
As someone who's been through many bad times -- some my fault, some not...
We live & we learn... it's what we do with lessons we've learned.
And you must be kind hearted... it seems too many nice people get f'd over for being nice.
I used to be that way.. rather than being "closed off", I've learned to be more selective.
Whether good or bad experience -- it's all part of life.
I still believe that things happen for a reason..
(For instance -- I've been through SA as a kid, teen & as an adult. I've had many discussions with young girls regarding my experiences.. To my surprise, my stories helped to keep these girls out of "harms way" & allowed them to see the "danger" signs. What I went through were horrific... but at the same time, knowing that it's helped the younger generation -- I'm ok with it. It's f'd up that it happened in the first place, but I would rather it be me than be my daughter or any other girls/ young women)
Keep your head up.. Stay strong.. Less stress & take the time to enjoy yourself ❤
I genuinely wish you the best ❤❤
Confucian thought tells me to that it's meaningful to contribute my small light to the overall progress of humankind's goodness. Nothing after. No "sin." No enlightenment. Just life. Precious life.
Why ought you do that ? And what's goodness to you , other people have attempted goodness in history and look how that turned out.
Truly charming and true. Thanks for your hard work.
Awesome dialogue! Would love to watch the Q&A.
"Our task is to live without hope...." ~ Albert Camus
Very, very good. Well done dude 👌👍👌👍
I've been sharing this video with my parents and friends because you eloquently elucidate many of my thoughts and beliefs, Stephen. I haven't gotten a response yet and I don't know if I will, but thank you for a job well done and happy holidays!
Brilliant presentation mate, Cheers. Happy holidays!! 😊
This was a really awesome speech to give to sixth formers, I hope you can keep inspiring such reflection in the youth. Thank you for your dedication and effort Stephen!
It's beautiful seeing you speak live, Stephen! :D :D :D
(I don't mean that I was there to see you in the flesh, but I mean seeing you speak in a live setting!)
The Christians' illusion of "hope" doesn't work any way *_according to their own beliefs._* What if you go to heaven, and then you rebel against god? Or something else happens to alienate you from god?
Rebel against god in heaven? That’s not possible given it’s allegedly an ultimately good place
Optimistic nihilism
Optimistic pessimist .
Misanthropic humanist.
*Bill Hicks*
So you're going to create meaning when there is no meaning , great 👍 . That's not contradictory
really good talk, well put, well said.
Beautifully written and performed. Great work
Impossible hopes are worse than lies.
More fantastic content.. thank you sir.
❤
Had a lot to cramp into 15 minutes, but you nailed it. Thanks for this inspiration.
Well said sir!!
Bravo! Well said. The only thing I would add is my own tag line: Live Your Life!
Well done, good honest talk.
Keep doing what you are doing. Respect.
Well done. You did a great job.
I was hanging out for the Q and A part.
Brilliant. Peut etre, ‘Nous Somme du soleil’? Or alternatively we are ‘All made of stars’. Well done. Thank you and keep up the good work.
Excellent content and delivery.
Thank you! 🎉
Great speech! very well said.
Afterlife is a simple extension of ego. If you’re not Beethoven or equivalent why would you deserve eternity? Anyone?
Why do you call yourself the Forsaken? Good speech man.
Great message. Thanks.
exactly my topic... i wanted to go learn more about hope for a while now...
Excellent speech. Well done. 👍
👏(Applause)
Great Speech Steven 👍
✨harness the anger of the unjust world and cultivate it into change✨
words to live by
Clear, concise, well-spoken, and altogether brilliant.
Great delivery of solid content.
Good speech. I'm wondering about the questions, hoping 😜you'll post them too...
You nailed it Steven.. put into words what i feel
Well said, Steve!
Merry Xmas Stephen to you and your family! 🎄🎁🎄🎁🎄🎁🎄🎁🎄
Great speech!
Beautifully said. I judge this speech a good use of 15 of my finite minutes.
It's important to keep a sense of proportion. I'm one person, with one life. My hopes are for lives made better for me being here for my family, my friends, maybe myself; a world some tiny bit better for a wider range of people now and moving on; a world at least no worse for everyone else overall, but honestly, what that means and my role in it get very fuzzy. Eternal rewards and endless afterlives have damn all to do in that context and on that scale, even if they were at all plausible or well-defined. And the hopes I have are, in enough part, in my hands to fulfil.
That was the most beautiful speech ever given by any person, you nailed it to perfection! Rationality does in fact rule!
It was good, but Christopher Hitchens still casts a long shadow, more than a decade in the grave.
Well delivered.
Very well put, Steve. I'd be curious to see the questions you were asked, if any, and what your answers were.
BEAUTIFULLY said, Steven! ❤
Anyone else notice that wall behind him is fucking filthy! Haha. I thought it was my screen!
What a wonderful speech! Were there any good questions at the end? Were they recorded?
I found hope in atheism and secularism by re-reading Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and Lawrence Krauss books. I sometimes watch the re-runs of Atheist Experience. If you keep reading you won't lost hope. Stay strong in atheism, like a strong atheist and you will find hope in life.
I sooooo want to hear the Q&A.
ONE OF THE BEST VIDEOS I HAVE EVER WATCHED ! SO SENSIBLE.
I hope to see more of your content in the future..
Thank you.
Theists don't have hope. They have false hope. Big difference.