Infinite Punishment for a Finite "Crime" | Carlin vs Craig (with Commentary from Stephen Woodford)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 มิ.ย. 2024
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Timestamps:
00:00 Because He Loves You
01:01 This Is Comedy (Kevin)
02:14 Benevolent Torture
04:11 Interpreting The Execution
05:16 At Least You Can Die!
06:26 Missing The Point (AGAIN)
07:13 The Mobfather
08:46 How’s That For Justice?
09:26 You Called Me Kevin
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References:
1) Dr. Craig Rebuts the "Best Atheist Arguments" from Ricky Gervais and Co: • Dr. Craig Rebuts the "...
2) An Undeniable Prognosis (Best Atheist Arguments): • An Undeniable Prognosi...
3) William Lane Craig vs Richard Dawkins (with Commentary from Stephen Woodford): • William Lane Craig vs ...
4) William Lane Craig vs Richard Dawkins (with Commentary from Stephen Woodford): • William Lane Craig vs ...
5) William Lane Craig vs Neil deGrasse Tyson (with Commentary from Stephen Woodford) on Demon Possession: • William Lane Craig vs ...
6) The Heresy of Craig | Craig vs Tyson (with Commentary from Stephen Woodford): • The Heresy of Craig | ... - บันเทิง
If you'd like to see Carlin's act in full, without heavy edits to avoid the frustrating experience of content ID match, then here you go: th-cam.com/video/8r-e2NDSTuE/w-d-xo.html
P.S. It's divine
you are my favorite youtuber. You do "god's" work lol
Shame you had to destroy it. Such a great video
The crime is not finite, a crime remains a crime.
God can forgive.
@@Pedantic_Brit
*"you had to destroy it"*
at the risk of appearing pedantic....
KEvron
Rationality Rules when can we expect next video on kalam? and this might be interesting for you " Unreasonable Faith - James Fodor Interview " on a channel "Digital Gnosis"
“If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they’ll kill you.” - Oscar Wilde
Is that a real quote? I wouldn't be surprised if it was.
@@oneminutereminder805 That quote is too true in countries where your religion prevails.
Love the quote..... especially since WLC is, to me, the embodiment of Wilde's Lady Bracknell sans the wig, hat and appropriate accent. He's so calculatingly earnest!
Yeah. I can vouch for that. I tell everyone the truth as kindly as possible and yet I have no friends anymore because I am autistic and my jokes suck.
@@PapiCthulu2 Yup, chances are good most other religions don't usher you to actively kill non-believers. Islam is particularly evil, even as religions go.
*He sacrificed Himself to Himself to save us from Himself.*
For a weekend.
You know who else did that? Hitler lmfao
I'm pretty sure that's not how that works. Its based on old testament promises. It seems to me to mean you have a place with God because he loves you like he will keep his promises the resurrection is the first fruits of this. He is offering true relationship.
@@natemcguire5058 please get a grip
Jesus "...sacrificed Himself to..." G-d the Father "...to save us from..." ourselves and the consequences of sin. That's the Christian theological position.
"I can't think of many people who deserve to go to hell, but people who teach its existence to vulnerable children are prime candidates."
- Richard Dawkins
I still think it's better to do so, for, how can one have a civilized society without fear of moral consequences? And how can one stay sane in a world full of suffering without hope of an afterlife? Without justice for the wicked, or rest for the suffering? Think about it, without that it would all be meaningless, if the constellation of atoms that make up our bodies exist, but has nothing to exist for, then what would make those atoms any better than the atoms of dirt, or cows? It will all be gone in the end, so what difference does it make? Hopefully I don't come off as rude, and I don't necessarily identify myself as Christian because the very word "belief" is still controversial in my opinion, but one thing I can definitely say for sure is that there is definitely a God, not because of the scientific evidence behind it, but the very notion that my words would mean nothing without it. Hopefully I'm making sense.
@@thekillkill9366 no, good man, you're not making sense at all, though I see where you're coming from. I implore you to see reason in that why would you need someone or something like a supernatural deity to tell you what's right and wrong?
@@proculusjulius7035 because, if it is not a higher power, then it would be just us, and I just can't accept that. The human mind is corrupt and history shows that a lot. Communism, fascism, slavery, the human mind is very complex, and very capable of wicked things. So to uplift ourselves as the moral standard is in my opinion disastrous.
@@thekillkill9366 only because you and I have been told so. And now that you've brought up slavery, which book (I know you have stated that you're not a Christian so this is just for arguments sake) was used to support slavery? Do you not think that an all powerful being with nothing but good intent would do away with such evils? If your phone gets spoiled either by refusing to function properly, is it your phones fault or to whom would you point the finger at?
@@proculusjulius7035 I assume you're talking about the bible, then I would agree with you that it has been used to justify slavery, but ironically it actually argues against it.
See:
Exodus 20:16 "He who kidnaps a man and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, shall surely be put to death"
Exodus 20:15 "You shall not steal"
Exodus 3:7 "And the Lord said: 'I have surely seen the oppression of My people who are in Egypt, and I have heard their cry because of their taskmasters, for I know their sorrows'"
Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ."
Plus, the bible has been responsible for creating the most freest nation in the world, for the simple reason that the Bible teaches that the way to salvation is not through the state but through the individual. So just as easily I can say that the Bible was used to argue against slavery.
Other than that, no, I don't think a God should do away with evil, because then there would be no free will, we would just be breathing automatons.
To all the people spamming the comments with quotes from Carlin... I approve! Have at it! Here's two of my favourites:
"Never underestimate the power of stupid in large groups."
"I have as much authority as the pope. I just don't have as many people who believe it."
@Trolltician nice one dude, really got us where it hurts
@Trolltician If you want people to fall for your trolls, you should've picked a different name.
Trolltician what an ironical statement
👍
To anyone responding to trolltician, please don't, don't feed the troll
"He loves you and he needs money!"
th-cam.com/video/IqaZnaFjbt8/w-d-xo.html
A theist tried to refute this video 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
No he doesn’t....😊
and your women.
And he need trained theologians to defend him
I'm also omnipotent, but it doesn't mean that I didn't respect a little bit of change.
“If Hell were real, each occupant would be a shining reminder that God has failed.”
-Robert Ingersoll
you wouldn't feel pain in hell, your peripheral nerves would burn up.
@@Xostides ahahah
God hasnt failed. Its the sinner who chooses hell by his actions.
If a man is pointing a gun at my face, and asks, "your money or your life" and I don't give him the money, and he shoots me, did I fail? God set up the game from the start
More like a reminder of how stubborn people are.
"Guy in the sky" isn't even a caricature. Christians often see god as descending from above, and they see him as a Man.
Actually first science mapped the universe, ran a scan to look for god, didn't find anything, and only then religion claimed god was actually above and beyond reality. God is always where you can't go and look for him. Once mount Olympus was good, then came alpinism... gods moved to the skies...
Moving the goalpost is their favourite hobby
@@Christopher-md7tf They now moved them outside of the reach of logic and reality... that's why Craig should realise he should stop trying to find logical arguments for god, because god is not there anymore. it's like he didn't read his own memo.
About 10 years ago when I was still an Evangelical Christian and attending a mega-church in Australia, the senior pastor said from the pulpit that heaven was in outer space. He even identified the specific object (a nebula I think it was) where heaven was. This dumbfounded me at the time. But he also believed that hell was at the centre of the Earth.
This clown is still the senior pastor of that church today (2020).
Not to mention the fact that god actually - in the all testament - wrestles and even cheats by kicking the opponent in the nuts and still loses. Ha ha. What a great character.
GOD... I miss Carlin and Hitchens. They’re needed now more than ever.
If Carlin would be alive now, he would say: 'fuck hope'...
Yeah good comedians...
Oh boy I think they would have had the time of their life with Trump these last 4 years.
Nice dilemma, if you pray for the second coming of Hitchens AND Carlin and tomorrow you read in the newspaper they were both found alive, together, next to the place where Jacob had his dream about that ladder thingy to heaven...
Even weirder, they both have pearly white wings...
@@watch3r1 The right has claimed Carlin as one of their own. Laughable, but true. It's based mostly on his rejection of the PC culture.
His disgusting analogy suggests we’re on death row for a crime we didn’t even commit. It’s meaningless before he even gets to the “pardon” part.
Yeah ... why are we all "guilty" of a supposed fruit-eating incident that a book says happened 6,000 years ago involving our supposed ancestors? *That's not justice!* That's just _absurd._
It takes self realisation whether evil is outside or inside... it begins with choices..
The joke of christianity is that Hitler had the last rites given from a priest, so he's to be found in heaven, Ghandi on the other hand was not a christian, so he's to be found in hell. I don't think so.
👍
@Sandcastle • not really partitionist tho. Others totally apply. But he also obviously did good things
@Sandcastle • no. Gandhi the pro peace and iqual society. I think you are mistaken
@Sandcastle • "partitionist"?! lol whats wrong with being a partitionist?
Hitler was a atheist lol
Well, no surprise here. Craig is really not very smart. I use some of his videos in my lectures to show my students how some people, calling themselves "philosophers", sometimes completely misunderstand basic mathematical ideas taught in the first year of college.
I noticed he doesn't grasp the concept of 'infinity' in mathematics... but that's just to assure there is a 'beginning'...
What do you teach? No mal intention here just curious
@@krishvids608 The class where Craig is used as a bad example is a class on theoretical computer science, which includes chapters on logic, set theory (Craig does not understand infinite sets), decidability and complexity. Sometimes I also include some quantum computation stuff, which then gives an occasion to ridicule all those apologists who insist that consciousness has something to do with "quantum".
@@afm4711 seems hard as fuck, congratulations
But you'd have to admit the duality of our minds in regards of the truth (which would, in double slit experiment, be light).
Whenever you're teaching someone you need to establish "common ground", knowledge all parties know, and then add to it what you want to teach them - show them new concept and point out similarities.
Result of teaching, though, is not a constant, there is duality in there:
Someone might find your teaching as a way to expand their mind and they might be grateful, some other people might think of you as someone who's pointing out their ignorance. The point is, there might be two different reactions to the motion of a lesson.
Now let's get back to the double slit experiment (our "common ground") and notice how in one setup there's a wave pattern - like light split in half and started interacting with itself, like two balls that are constantly being pulled one to another and then colliding and parting one another. Yet, if we put an observer, like that "split" never happens, we get photon particles just hit the wall.
But that happens in us, too. You're receiving this information, it splits your mind in two, you create an "avatar" of me inside your mind that knows everything you know, but doesn't know really what I (the source) know.
Of you find logic in Avatar, if you see your reflection in it, if you see them "the same", then you're be calm. Like saying "sun is hot". But if you reject something, that doesn't fit your knowledge and experiences, you'll try to kick it out of your mind. You'll start interacting with it, I pushed you out of your balance, your inner peace, and you want to "push me back". And then debate starts, we are constantly trying to push each other, creating collision, emotions.
Once you get the observer in, it stops the wave, it calms the mind, but the wave needs to go somewhere.
And it gets out in the form of laughter - because that's exactly what happens in jokes: a new perspective is being presented, you're confused, trying to decide should it stay or should it go, and then you realize the pattern in what you expected and what new perspective is showing you, and you're suddenly happy for learning something new.
Yet, if you don't get the joke, a negative emotion could rise, and you'll have this "out of balance" feeling, that needs to be settled. You might say "the joke is stupid" and think that person who told you is stupid, or you might feel person would make fun of you because you "didn't get it". Whatever the explanation is, that negative experience will have to get out of your system. One way or the other it's the stressor. So you might take it as an insult and insult person back (for showing you your ignorance and basically calling you ignorant) then that person would have to get rid of that negativity, and like Newtons cradle, start a constant chain of action and opposite reactions just because our mind wants to be in peace. Like pendulum.
Sorry for trying to show you your ignorance... Of course, you're welcome to return
When I first listened to this clip of George Carlin, more than 12 years ago, I was still a Christian and I could understand the irony and that it actually was a serious critique (it is weird that Craig take it just as mockery), so, I started to think in a good response for it. In the process of delving into answer such difficult questions for christian doctrine I became an atheist.
"Without you, this series wouldn't exist...Like God."
I died. 🤣
how do you know God doesnt exist?
@@beardan76 I have high confidence based on inductive reasoning. Every instance of a conscious being ever observed has been physical, specifically having a brain. The notion of a timeless, spaceless consciousness doesn't make any sense from what I can tell.
@@dinohall2595 Mate it is God we are talking about here. You are thinking from a human perspective. You have no idea what God is/isnt capable of. If he is able to create something is brilliant as the universe, id say he is capable of being pretty bloody amazing.
@@beardan76 To assume this about a god, you must presuppose one exists.
@@dinohall2595 There is no doubt about the existence of God. Zero.
Craig's death row analogy implies something much much darker.
That people are guilty of murder by default. Without touching anyone, let alone harming them.
Truly despicable.
If this Craig character is the best apologists have, they got some real problems.
He would absolutely dismantle rational atheist the same way he dismantled Harris
@@MadebyJimbob OMFG
It's hard to defend something without evidence.
@@MadebyJimbob literally every debate between lane and any atheist, ends the same way. Theists think they're winning, whilst atheists know they won
@@MadebyJimbob He was destroyed by Harris, unsurprisingly.
How a man like Craig, with two advanced degrees, can be so obtuse is a comedic character unto itself.
This was really good! It took me 18 years to overcome the dogma and start thinking about religion for myself. I'm glad that there are others like me.
@jackson342002 yes, it's sad that the vast majority of humanity still believe in complete nonsense. And then they elect leaders who also believe in complete nonsense. But that's another story.
There is a very stark difference between missing a point and evading a point which is what Craig is doing.
Not really... All the Carlin could make fun of is a caricature of some interpretations...
So addressing the real issue is not missing the point or evading...
Stanley Arun Many Christians believe that hell is a place of eternal torture for sins here on earth. Sins like not believing in something for which there isn’t sufficient evidence, or for being gay. Carlin’s critique is that a loving God wouldn’t set up a system where billions of people would be condemned to infinite torture or pain for these supposed sins. Not all Christians believe in hell, but many do. They believe in this precise concept. It’s not a charicature if it’s an accurate description of what people believe. People including Craig. Notice how he didn’t say “I don’t believe in hell. The God I believe in would never do something as heinous as burn and torture people forever”.
So that is the real issue. It’s a belief he has being fairly criticised. And Craig didn’t address it. He minimised it by equating it to:
- Murder. An actual immoral action deserving of punishment; and
- A finite punishment
This is a disgusting minimisation strategy. Someone who has done nothing wrong being tortured forever is not analogous to someone who is guilty of the worst crime known to man being fairly punished for a finite amount of time.
If you can’t see how Craig missed the point here you either have incredibly low standards for what you consider good apologetics, or you just don’t want to see the truth.
John Smith I think for George Carlin and you .. The idea of hell is based on what some Christians say or the descriptions you see in Tom &Jerry....
Those are all weird caricatures.. And I agree completely that a loving God would not do... But God who is perfect in Love and Justice.. Would not force freebeings to be with Him when they chose not to...
Any crime done is finite.. God has offered forgiveness and transformation...But rejecting God is an deliberate choice.. Loving and Just God would honour that choice...
If you walk away from source of goodness, light, peace, Joy.... You will receive the opposites of it... Which is described with imageries like fire etc... It’ll be more torturous to be not able to have fellowship with God than any flame...
So Craig was addressing the real issue of God’s Love and Justice...
@@TruthHurtsbutHeal *I think for George Carlin and you .. The idea of hell is based on what some Christians say or the descriptions you see in Tom &Jerry....*
Are you claiming that the notion that hell is a place of eternal torment and torture where people are sent for unrepentant sinning is only a caricature, and not an accurate representation of what many Christians believe? If so, all I can say is you are just plainly wrong. This is precisely what many Christians believe. This is precisely what many Christians teach to impressionable young children.
*It’ll be more torturous to be not able to have fellowship with God than any flame...*
This is another common view of hell - that it's the separation from God. That itself is the torment... not fire pits and the devil and eternal torture. This view is taken by many Christians (and it's a pretty fair one in my opinion, since there's actually very little in the bible that suggest a literal hell). But Carlin wasn't talking about those Christians that hold this view... he was talking about the millions upon millions of Christians that believe in a hell of fire and torture.
*So Craig was addressing the real issue of God’s Love and Justice...*
I would say the key parts of Carlin's point were something along the lines of:
* Hell
* Infinite torture
* Clearly not something a loving being would do to others
When you and Craig say "Ah yes, let me address that point about God's love and justice" clearly you are not addressing Carlin's point. This is called a strawman argument.
John Smith Thanks for your comprehensive response...
I agree that many Christians have a literal view to threaten the rest.. That’s such snobbery and misrepresentation...
Glad you agreed with the non-literal view..
But if Carlin is attacking what some Christians believe...
No Christian has to defend it necessarily.. Anyone can waive of easily saying that Scriptures doesn’t teach that...
Which infact what Craig did.. But Carlin went on to say about how could a loving God would do such a terrible thing... So Craig Clarified the idea of Love and Justice..
Can you recognise the connection???
Isn’t it ironic that billy calls atheist arguments silly and yet he is the one who is advocating for wizards and magic 😂😂😂
Bill doesn't recognize contradictions and unproven assumptions.
He deals only in faith based claims from a single book.
What is Craig a Doctor of????
Also, isn't an infinite reward for a finite action also unjust?
Exactly. And many christians are told that they should feel a little guilty for going to heaven because they don't deserve it
That's a good point
👏
@@Jam77229 The command on coveting is not an easy one. I think you need to have had a lobotomy before you stop coveting. There's probably a lot of drooling in heaven.
His entire education is theology:
1971, BA in Communications (i.e., how to lie professionally). Also staffed the local Campus Crusade for Christ.
1974, MA in "philosophy of religion" at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School.
1977, PhD in philosophy, with a thesis on the cosmological argument.
1984, D. Theol. from his postdoc fellowship "researching" the historicity of Jesus' resurrection.
I love your work man. If I were not poor taking care of my daughter and grandchildren. I would donate. Your work is well thought out and delivered in a very professional and easily understood medium. Through a touch of levity as you do from time to time also lightens the mood even though the topic is very serious and should be looked at with intelligence and thought. Thank you for what you do
speeding up Carlin is a sin that won't be forgiven ever
Does it merit an infinite punishment? :P
@@rationalityrules I guess...
since the video will be here forever you deserve eternal punishment.
@@rationalityrules
yeah, but your punishment will be sped up too - infinity will pass much more quickly that way. Because that's how infinity works isn't it? WLC told me, and he understands it all.....
@@888marcinb Wha...!!!
th-cam.com/video/IqaZnaFjbt8/w-d-xo.html
A theist tried to refute this video 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Even Hitler wouldn't deserve to be in an eternally burning hell. Only a person creating and maintaining such a hell would.
Well, technically...
Anyone could deserve to be in an eternally burning hell. Just not eternally.
Yes, I'm poking fun at the easily misinterpretable way you phrased things.
"Im doing this because i love you"
@@earendilthemariner5546 Christians would attempt to argue that even though god is loving, he has to send people to hell because god also has to be just.
But honestly I don’t know how it’s justice to have a punishment that never ends.
@@ChrisJia202 It is not. I think eternal non-existence for unrepentant sinners is just. Additionally, I think the Bible does teach eternal non-existence. The doctrine of hell was basically imported from Greek ideas about death.
Stephen, the vagaries of the algorithm have kept this gem from me. Until now. Wonderful stuff.
God camerons smug face is worse than craigs lame rebuttals.
th-cam.com/video/IqaZnaFjbt8/w-d-xo.html
A theist tried to refute this video 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
William lane craig invented the shit eating grin
Man I hate that smirk so much
So true.
Kevin's*
"It seems that Craig has made a career of missing the point". Dead😂😂😂
Not responding to a caricature is not missing the point...
@@TruthHurtsbutHeal But if you think about it it's not that much of a caricature anyway. Christians believe that God is invisible, all the christians i know of believe God is a man and they believe he rules over and resides majorly in heaven. Ask any Christian to point in the direction of heaven and at least 90 percent will point skyward. So, "An invisible man living in the sky" isn't that far from reality at all.
Harry Peter Christian God is not defined by Christians... But the scriptures they hold.. Anything apart from it like you collecting bits and pieces from what some Christians say.. Is just a caricature and not the truth...
@@harrypeter5626 Athletes, when they hit a home run or sink a long shot in basketball or score a touchdown, make the sign of the cross and point skyward.
@@jkryanspark And that proves...?
I think Carlin’s bit was more about how a ‘loving’ god can stomach sentencing his children into eternal suffering for sinning. No sane and loving parent would ever punish their own child like that under any circumstances. Period.
And given the fact that he's willing to forego justice to pardon anyone who wants it, he has no compulsion to keep up this charade of, "Well if I don't punish SOME people then there's no justice!" as if he's trying to be some ultimate arbiter of good. It's nothing but a petty game of favorites.
Thank you for this video. The obscene insanity that is Eternal Hell has no place in the 21st century. I hope you will forgive me if I share a quote of mine I once posted followed by a quote from Robert Ingersoll:
"Why do I keep raging about Hell? I rage about Hell because it makes me angry. It makes me angry that I once believed it. That I defended it. It makes me angry it's being taught to children. It makes me angry that intelligent people defend it. But most of all it makes me angry because it is an evil abusive concept that has paralysed the minds of millions of human beings with the most obscene and sadistic nightmares for over two millennia."
"I despise that doctrine. It has covered the cheeks of this world with tears. It has polluted the hearts of children, and poisoned the imaginations of men. It has been a constant pain, a perpetual terror to every good man and woman and child. It has filled the good with horror and with fear; but it has had no effect upon the infamous and base. It has wrung the hearts of the tender; it has furrowed the cheeks of the good. This doctrine never should be preached again. What right have you, sir, Mr. clergyman, you, minister of the gospel, to stand at the portals of the tomb, at the vestibule of eternity, and fill the future with horror and with fear? I do not believe this doctrine: neither do you. If you did, you could not sleep one moment. Any man who believes it, and has within his breast a decent, throbbing heart, will go insane. A man who believes that doctrine and does not go insane has the heart of a snake and the conscience of a hyena."
- Robert Ingersoll
Hassan Radwan, big fan of your work. Your video about were an eye opener so seeing you here shouldn’t have been a surprise
Holy shit, those are some damn good quotes.
The court jester could tell the ruler unpleasant truths.
"Is God so powerful that he could create a rock so heavy not even he could lift it?"
That was Carlin's joke that began the first kernels of Atheism within me. Thanks for my brain, George.
really? that's not a very good reason for atheism.
@@LeventeCzelnai it was only the first crack in my religious wall. 1985, i was 10. I became a Total Atheist at age 14.
@@LeventeCzelnai "Could God microwave a burrito so hot that not even He could eat it?"
The answer is usually "well, he could... but he wouldn't...?"
@@ericmoore6769 saying, God cannot be omnipotent, as he cannot 'create a weapon that could kill himself', or 'create a stone that he cannot lift' (just to stay with the classical example) is a strawman. it is a strawman, because the argument is based on a different definition of the word 'omnipotence' than what it s actually is.
yes, God is omnipotent from the point of view of us. but if we imagine the concept as what it is, an absolute unit of being, the definition cannot be hold using it in questions against itself.
if God exists, he cannot contradict himself, he must have rules he has to follow that originate from his being. so, he is restricted by himself (he is 'just there'), but is 'omnipotent' in what he creates.
Edit : it's like asking why cannot the universe (entire existence) destroy itself, in case there is no god.
Well omnipotence implies the power to do all that is possible
6:50 damn son. Summed up this mans whole career in one card.
🤣
Craig is an expert on the imaginary.
There's a magical man in the sky that will torture you forever but he loves you.
Rebuttal: he's not in the sky.
🤦♂️
And lets not forget the only Unforgivable sin is not believing, so hitler as a catholic could get into heaven, an Atheist no matter how good they were in life would go to hell
I've had discussions where they told me I would just seize to exist, as an Atheist, in a way they're just making it up as it suits them...
EXACTLY! According to the Bible, you could drop a nuke on an elementary school, but as long as you repent and turn yourself over to God after the fact, you’ll be “saved.” Yet, us non-believers are fucked for eternity, simply due to our lack of belief.
Biblical justice at its finest.
@@marcdecock7946 There are some Christian sects who do have an annihilationist theology which basically teaches that evil people are annihilated, rather than being tortured eternally. The Jehovah's Witnesses are one such group. Another is the Seventh Day Adventists.
Nobody says that... Don’t keep attacking some caricatures.. Won’t get u anywhere
I know that's what you're acting Holy Ghost after knowing it I really there's no sin that God can't forgive you and just because your Christian doesn't mean you're going to go to heaven is doing what God commands you to do so in Heller case he's probably in hell
Love your side comments. Literally fell off my couch. Brilliant stuff. Thank you.
Being created broken and then sentenced to eternal suffering for being broken from the same dude that made you broken. Makes sense to me.
Carlin was a treasure. I wish I could have appreciated him more when he was alive.
Poor bloke was misguided. Didnt understand God so mocked him.
@@beardan76 "he didn't believe in my flavor of God which is just as baseless as the other flavors of God."
7:14 forgiveness for the being the way he created us in the first place.
✊
This rocked. Love the series you made with WLC. Excellent stuff!
Really enjoyed this series, good work.
The point of punishment is to correct behaviour. Infinite punishment leaves no room for behaviour changes and is therefore pointless. If Hell exists, God's doing it for shits and giggles.
man that first clip with carlin was soo good. i even put it in my webcomic about atheism a few months ago
@@things_leftunsaid yeah i linked in the first reply. its pretty short, but i spent so much time and effort on it. it would mean the world to me if u checked it out.
@@ChrisChoi123 hell yeah
😅
The beard looks great! Always good to get a notification from Rationality rules having uploaded a new video ❤
A fine ending of this excellent series. Great stuff....
Hey, I was just binge-watching your videos, and then this pop-up. Nice
Man I miss George Carlin. I was lucky enough to have seen him twice before he left us.
Im noticing your production quality go up! Great job everything looks very nice
Thank you so much for this
I became a atheist and you helped me a lot in this journey, I am really thankful towards you Stephen 🖤
At 7min Craig literally expressed the opingon that Carlin was lambasting! 'Love me or go to hell'. The darts didn't miss the bullseye they missed the wall!
Love these!!!
What a thoroughly articulate and sensible young man. I will find out who he is and where he hangs out.
"Without you this series wouldn't exist, like god" even the finishing line was absolute gold
Funny til the truth comes out
From henceforth, Cameron Bertuzzi shall be known as Kevin.
Loved these series 😃
Great work, my friend. Thank you!
Love that your man bun is comming back!
Yes, EXCELLENT!
Love George Carlin’s take on life.
But his life has passed and he missed the most important thing. That there is a loving God he mocked.
I like your point about the justice system of christianity actually being unjust. Not god, but only the devil would construct a system with infinite suffering for a finite crime.
scuse me, the human brain is perfectly able to make up these distorted concepts all by itself, no need to be primitive and look for faces in inanimate objects.
Satan takes his orders from Yahweh
who is man made.
Who says that the being worshipped as god isn't actually a demon making us only belief that he is god. While the actual god is the being we know as devil who is actually omnibenelovent and everybody just swallows the lies of this demon that pretends to be, and fails miserably at being, nice. Would be fun (i mean I'd stand by and laugh my ass off if that actually happened), also kinda worrying, if that was actually the case. Good thing i don't have to deal with any of that
@@timbo3286 atheism means nobody goes to the hell of any denomination. it's also being humble about things you don't know, and open to whatever the facts turn out to be, as long as they are reproducable. I imagine the type of god that doesn't like this way of thinking is also not going to make much of an effort to take care of a wonderful afterlife.
A WONDERFUL video; thank you!!!
4:30 You don't want to know how many times I replayed this "Well"
And if God is omniscient, He knows what choice you will make without even having yet offered it to you. So the whole thing becomes an exercise in redundancy.
The thought exercise is supposed to be that you know what your heart says (which is the voice of Satan) and rather follow your head (which is the voice of God).
he also created the future, so everything that has happened or is going to happen is already predetermined
no he knows your options. You make the choice.
Good comedy is usually largely based in truth.
New sub. Found you through the collab with Holy Koolaid three years ago on 9 misconceptions about Evolution. I've binged most of your videos. Thanks for making such amazing content.
Cameron "Kevin" has the Mike Pence facial expressions down cold.
Carlin had a mind sharper than WLC could ever hope to have.
Lmaooo bruh I hear some dumb stuff when I watch rr or read his comment section but this takes the cake
@Dee Bee oh I will
@@joshuaphilip7601 You should... Craig isn't even close to Carlin's league.
@@BSFree-es5ml This has to be a joke. Just because someone is represented counter culture and did it well doesn't mean he's more intelligent then a trained Philosopher. Now I think theism is perfectly defensible, but I'm guessing since you're a fan of Carlin you don't. Isn't a sign of intelligence if someone who represents a worldview which you clearly find ridiculous can still win debates against the top representatives of the atheist side?
@@joshuaphilip7601
_This has to be a joke_
- No, but Carlin has some great jokes too.
_Just because someone is represented counter culture and did it well doesn't mean he's more intelligent then a trained Philosopher_
- How many philosophers have the cultural impact of Carlin in recent times? He did far more than “ represent counter culture “.
_Now I think theism is perfectly defensible but I'm guessing since you're a fan of Carlin you don't_
- I’d be a fan of Carlin anyway.
_Isn't a sign of intelligence if someone who represents a worldview which you clearly find ridiculous can still win debates against the top representatives of the atheist side?_
- No. Unless you consider when he loses debates that it is equally a sign of a lack of intelligence? Craig is a very slick debater, he has been doing it for decades and knows how to structure things to suit himself. But I’ve seen him lose convincingly, and more importantly if you can win a debate with bad arguments, that doesn’t make you honest or accurate…
just a good debater.
If a murderer repents and becomes a christian and can go to heaven but Gandhi and Anne Frank go to hell, there is no justice in christianity.
That's one of my biggest issue with Christianity.
Well, the Bible does not teach eternal hell. Eternal hell is basically an invention by the Early/Catholic church (influenced by Greek philosophy about the state of the dead. i.e. immortality of the soul). The Bible does teach that God destroys the ungodly beings (humans and angels) in the judgement, it even talks about destroying souls (which only means "living being" in Hebrew btw, i.e. no dualism).
@@chris-nj3vg soooo, when did mention anything about "eternal hell"?
Oh yeah, I didn't.
And as far as I'm concerned, the entire bible is "basically an invention"...it's a poorly written work of garbage.
@@TheRealitarian Hell is commonly understood as a place of eternal agony. The video talks about that, not about eternal non-existence.
@@chris-nj3vg so if it's commonly understood, why did you bring it up as if it's not?
And again, I never mentioned it...I'm pretty sure heaven and hell don't even exist, so it being temporary or permanent is not my point.
Even if it was for one day, my original point still stands...that there is no justice in the christian ideology.
Comedy is where I started to question my faith. I was studying to become a priest ten years ago. My love of standup had a huge impact in the way I see the world.
The “well Kevin” on that expansion card would be gold 😂
It’s starting to make more and more sense to me that heaven and hell is a later Christian popular belief/human invention
Worst analogy ever...someone on death row is sentenced to die because they willingly committed a heinous crime. We, however, were simply born with our (god-given) human nature. It's amazing the mental gymnastics Christians use to make sense of their beliefs...
He sacrificed Himself to Himself to save us from Himself.
There is no mental gymnastics from the Christian side.. it’s from the other side to ignore the obvious...
All it takes is the self realisation whether evil is inside or outside... It all starts with our choices..
Forgiveness involves deep love and cost..
@@youtube-Name111 - Mercy is the suspension of justice. Matt Dillahunty pointed that out a long time ago. One can´t be perfectly just and merciful at the same time. If God is so merciful that he´s willing to not punish us for any of our sins just because we accepted his pardon, then i see no reason why there should be a deadline for accepting the pardon. Yet, christians typically believe you must accept the pardon by believing in him prior to your death, so if you start believing in Christianity after death, you´re still not forgiven. That makes no sense.
Furthermore, William Lane Craig´s statement seems to logically imply that all you have to do is accept the pardon to avoid all the punishment... but by that logic, even a non-christian that died as a non-christian should be able to be pardoned and go to heaven by simply going to a church and saying:- Jesus, i currently don´t believe Chritianity is true and i can´t force myself to believe it´s true just like i can´t force myself to believe chickens live on Venus, but just in case i´m wrong and Christianity is true, i accept your divine pardon and am willing to aknowledge Christianity is true if something one day convinces me that it is true.
Adam Moore, this is so in both groups. Your "scientific knowledge" rest on unscientific assumptions too.
@@edwardklein3093 You are interpreting things with your limited perception and your blind eye. An educational process doesn't abide to your logic. You don't force the donkey to drink water but you take it to the river. You need to provide the experimental set up for learning but you can't learn for someone else.
Great channel!
great video!!
Not an original comment, saw it some where around athiest youtube. But yes craig misses the point alot. It should be called "Craiging the question" 😂
6:41 Well, That was brutal
That "But he loves you" voice!
Great work stephen!
The new Dodge card made my day! :D
I'd rather listen to George Carlin, both for comedy and for philosophy if my only other choice was William Lane Craig.
P.S.: You have no idea how hard I have to try with this man not to "sound" hateful...
Don't worry, text is silent
Why?
WLC offers an insight into the mindset of humanity overall, even Rationality Rules, since he in an much older video sounds like WLC talking about raising cattle and eating meat is the equivalent to endorsing rape (inseminating cows) and eating them to murder..
@@preferredpronoun3689 I don't think he does offer any helpful one. When you're right for wrong reasons - eventually you die or have to suffer till you fix the wrong reason.
God comes with one pattern fitting and filling every hole and gap in our knowledge and understanding. It even answers meaningless questions logically incoherent ones, before time and many such...
I prefer to hear "I do not know." and wait for consistent explanation rather than "God works in mysterious ways", "God created it all" or similar. Only people who answer the former are scientists, whose discoveries often clearly has a hint of our insignificance, yet WLC is shoving us up with anthropocentric universe.
Every listen of his for me breaks down to either hypocrisy or ignorance.
@@davit_nergadze
Your last paragraph is exactly what I meant in my previous response and why that is important to know and be aware of to know humanity better.
I really enjoyed this series.
I like the idea of a “dodge” card, and the idea of a card count summary at the end, lol.
Poor Kevin.
I asked god for a bike as my christmas present.
Then I realized that god doesn't work this way.
So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness :)
😂
Permission to use this
You had me at Saint Carlin.
What I never hear much as an argument is the fact that, as long as our human sense of self is preserved, there can't be any such thing as infinite punishment. Our mind is very good at coping with and even filtering things that are considered persistent or even periodic. At some point, the infinite punishment would be perceived as the norm and we would just stop caring or integrate it as part of our reality. Even if this eternal punishment was designed to alternate between states of bliss and suffering randomly, given enough time it would become white noise, and we would be able to ignore it. There's no escenario under which we could maintain our human self and perceive a punishment for eternity.
for the same reason, there's no such thing as eternal bliss either
Even after a very partial reading of the old testament, reading about a bloke getting stoned to death for gathering sticks on the wrong day of the week, another bloke killed by god for having touched the ark of the covenant (even if he was trying to prevent it from falling to the ground), and a poor kid also killed by god because his parent's union displeased god, I just gave up trying to understand divine justice according to christianity or judaism.
But at least Jewish God doesn't torture anyone endlessly unlike Christian or Muslim God! Old Testament hardly ever mentions Hell!
@daniel letterman : I read the old testament up to the books of Samuel, so yes, I read that part, but it blended smoothly into all other kinds of messed up stuff. I mean, that was a few chapters after the flood.
And the kids who were mauled to death by a bear for calling a bald prophet "Bald". Sounds like the actions of a loving god to me.
You guys do not understand the Bible at all lol
@@Malone25673 : how are we supposed to understand the story of David and Bathsheba's son getting killed by god for example?
William craig is the comedian here. But he’s not aware of it...
Craig is NOT a comedian. He's a joke.
Don't let the greatness of the video distract you from noticing his new fantastic style
The Judge and the criminal analogy does not work when you remember that the pardon of the non believer's "crimes" is based solely off of belief. So instead of just taking the pardon the criminal is under the condition that he or she must thoroughly believe that the judge has some sort of mystical fire-bending power that only he and coincidentally his family know about.
Carlin often laboured thru sets which were just meh.... but when he was on fire, he presented pure, timeless, gold. Much missed.
If a pardon is issued, the "condemned" doesn't get a choice. He's pardoned. His sentence will not be executed. So... if GOD pardoned everyone, why are there these strings attached?
Another topic: Stephen, I think the fundies would say "everyone is guilty to the same extent" and that's why the punishment is the same for everyone. The crime, apparently, is in being born.
that's one interpretation of the doctrine of original sin.
in fact, once "doctrine" is appended to some belief, it becomes immune to reason.
Born bad
commanded to be good.
Love the almighty.
Great content.
The "Not Kevin" in the lower left corner during Carlin's clip had me in stitches (and no, not for THAT reason, clever reader). 😂
Carlin is always fun to watch!
You know they are deluded when they try to explain their stance because someone made a joke in a comedy show.
I think that's not an accurate reading. They are responding to a video unaptly titled "The best arguments against religion" or something like that, so I think it's okay that they address why they might be not as good, they didn't just randomly chose it. Perhaps the real sin is not addressing the point behind the simplified version of the arguments those people were trying to lay down, as RR showed.
This series has been very interesting
NonStampCollector has a great video about this called "how amazing is God's forgiveness?" Its hilarious.
How can god let a mother spend an eternity in heaven knowing her son spends an eternity in hell because he is gay with no hope of redemption. The mother is suffering a far worse punishment for all time. That is not a god worthy of worship.
god is evil 😢.
malevolent
William Lane Imissthepoint Craig
Lol i totally thought that exact same thing
4:53
Mercy is the suspension of justice.