7:00 Chuck Norris created "American Tang Soo Do" in late 1965/early 1966. At that time Japanese stylists were the dominant fighters in the tournament circuit and Chuck got his arse handed to him for the first few years of his career. Chuck began training under Fumio Demura, Tsutomu Oshima and Hidetake Nishiyama to improve his hands and learn the hand and foot combination shotokan was known for. He also added judo (his first style) to his system. In the 1970s he trained in hapkido and budo jujutsu. Sometime in the 1980s, Chuck dropped the American Tang Soo Do name. In 1990, after adding Brazilian jiu-jitsu to his system he renamed it "Chun Kuk Do". That name stuck until 2015, when he renamed the art (for a third time) to the "Chuck Norris System". All the top Tang Soo Do fighters of the 1960s and 70s came from Norris' American Tang Soo Do system...Pat Johnson, Bob Wall, John Natividad, Darnell Garcia, Harold Gross, Howard Jackson, Bob Burbidge, Bob Alegria, Ralph Alegria, Ron Pohnel, Chip Wright, etc. There are still people who still use the American Tang Soo Do name. These are people who broke away from Chuck over the decades for various reasons. Some before the name change(s) in 1990. Some after who legally couldn't use the later names because both were trademarked and didn't want to get sued. 9:00 Hwang Kee's training history is more like sketchy than hazy. He "learned" taekkyon by watching a master from afar, back during a time when Korea was under Japanese occupation and prohibited the practice of Korean arts... Not sure why someone would risk practicing something prohibited anywhere he would be seen. If a kid can see you doing it, then surely a Japanese sympathizer or a soldier can also see you. Every Moo Duk Kwan website out there claims that he was considered a "prodigy", but never name's names. Personally, I do believe that Lee was Hwang's teacher albeit for a brief time. If you look at those videos from the 1950s, that looks like straight up shotokan. There's only so much you can learn from a book, someone's gotta fill in the gaps for you. If you look at the Chung Do Kwan's versions of the Pyong-an forms (those that still teach them), many of the added moves that differentiate them from the Japanese/Okinawan counterparts are found in the Moo Duk Kwan's versions. Something that a lot of people don't mention is Rohai. Tang Soo Do's version is based off of Matsumura no Rohai, not Mekyo, which is shotokan's version. The Matsumura version would not have been found in those books (most likely Funakoshi's) Hwang claims he learned from. So, in addition to Lee, Hwang at some point studied under or was affiliated with either a shito-ryu (most likely) or shorin-ryu practitioner. Ki Whang Kim, who was the Moo Duk Kwan's U.S. representative was actually a shudokan stylist. I think that this Mr. Yang (if he really existed) wasn't Hwang's only teacher. Regardless of how one feels about the legitimacy of Hwang's background, there's no doubt if you are a Tang Soo Do stylist, he is owed some gratitude for breaking away during the unification. Otherwise, we'd be calling ourselves taekwondo and doing that Olympic style footsie they do now a days,
Yeah I am generally skeptical of Hwang Kee’s entire story. There is virtually no documentation of Yang Kuk Jin that doesn’t come from Hwang Kee himself. Considering how often he learned and integrated things indirectly, I wouldn’t be surprised at all if he made it up. In terms of him having other teachers, it’s obviously very political for him to deny not that he trained with other people that had karate experience but that he was never their student. It comes off as arrogant because I agree that you can only learn so much from books. The time he spent training with Won Kuk Lee and others with formal karate experience probably had a very big influence on his teaching and training. I think it would reflect better on him if he acknowledged this but instead the claim is that he was this martial genius. Personally, I don’t have any problem with Olympic Taekwondo, in fact it would be nice if Tang Soo Do had more organized competition. It is true though that we have maintained our karate roots to a greater degree than what you generally see in Taekwondo. I’m not sure if we should thank Hwang Kee for that though as later in his life he rebranded to create a truly Korean art, Soo Bahk Do. If anyone we should thank the leaders that left the Moo Duk Kwan when the changes got to be too much.
@@ModernTangSooDo While I do agree that people like Jae Joon Kim, Kang Uk Lee, Jae Chul Shin, Ki Yun Yi, Norris (my lineage) and many others who split from the Moo Duk Kwan decades ago deserve great thanks for continuing to keep TSD's karate roots still alive while Hwang and his son went a different path, if Hwang hadn't left the unification committee back in 57/58 , everyone who would eventually split from him would likely be calling themselves TKD right now. So, I do give him some credit for the initial branching off. As far as competition TSD, a goal/dream for a while was to form some type of league. No lifetime "grandmaster" at the head of the table. Just a bunch of promotors in different regions hosting a series of tournaments. Open to all Tang Soo Doists, regardless of affiliation. No yuk roh or chil sung, just "traditional" forms. As for sparring, no stop and go point fighting. For me a mix of old school WTF and JKA/JKF would be the "perfect" mesh. Continuous fighting mixed with throwing and takedowns. No full on newaza, cause now it might as well be MMA or Kudo.
@@barrettokarate Are you the Chuck Norris Tang Soo Do Black Belt that had a Tang Soo Do school, I think in Oregon, back in the 70's. maybe 80's ? I remember a Norris Black Belt, Barrett, that would come down from Oregon to the Sherman Oaks school every once in awhile?
Great video. I appreciate the straight forwardness and sincerity. I have a somewhat similar martial arts journey to owning a school myself. Keep on the path sir. 🥋 ~ M. Norton
I was an aspiring archeologist as a kid too 😂 I ended up being a barrister but my dream now, as young adult, is opening a karate club to teach and share Koryu Uchinadi and everything related to old style japanese and chinese martial arts culture and history.
I've had the opportunity to train in Tang Soo Do schools that had no Moo Duk Kwan lineage and also Mu Duk Kwan and from my experience the non M.D.K was just like traditional TKD with the exception of the Hyungs...in fact I've also seen Traditional Tae Kwon Do using T.S.D. forms. The Mu DuK Kwon has some softer things and the way the execute the d.knife hand block from the triangle on hip. Makes me wonder if the name was the instructors personal preference.🤔
7:00 Chuck Norris created "American Tang Soo Do" in late 1965/early 1966. At that time Japanese stylists were the dominant fighters in the tournament circuit and Chuck got his arse handed to him for the first few years of his career. Chuck began training under Fumio Demura, Tsutomu Oshima and Hidetake Nishiyama to improve his hands and learn the hand and foot combination shotokan was known for. He also added judo (his first style) to his system. In the 1970s he trained in hapkido and budo jujutsu.
Sometime in the 1980s, Chuck dropped the American Tang Soo Do name. In 1990, after adding Brazilian jiu-jitsu to his system he renamed it "Chun Kuk Do". That name stuck until 2015, when he renamed the art (for a third time) to the "Chuck Norris System". All the top Tang Soo Do fighters of the 1960s and 70s came from Norris' American Tang Soo Do system...Pat Johnson, Bob Wall, John Natividad, Darnell Garcia, Harold Gross, Howard Jackson, Bob Burbidge, Bob Alegria, Ralph Alegria, Ron Pohnel, Chip Wright, etc.
There are still people who still use the American Tang Soo Do name. These are people who broke away from Chuck over the decades for various reasons. Some before the name change(s) in 1990. Some after who legally couldn't use the later names because both were trademarked and didn't want to get sued.
9:00 Hwang Kee's training history is more like sketchy than hazy. He "learned" taekkyon by watching a master from afar, back during a time when Korea was under Japanese occupation and prohibited the practice of Korean arts... Not sure why someone would risk practicing something prohibited anywhere he would be seen. If a kid can see you doing it, then surely a Japanese sympathizer or a soldier can also see you. Every Moo Duk Kwan website out there claims that he was considered a "prodigy", but never name's names.
Personally, I do believe that Lee was Hwang's teacher albeit for a brief time. If you look at those videos from the 1950s, that looks like straight up shotokan. There's only so much you can learn from a book, someone's gotta fill in the gaps for you. If you look at the Chung Do Kwan's versions of the Pyong-an forms (those that still teach them), many of the added moves that differentiate them from the Japanese/Okinawan counterparts are found in the Moo Duk Kwan's versions.
Something that a lot of people don't mention is Rohai. Tang Soo Do's version is based off of Matsumura no Rohai, not Mekyo, which is shotokan's version. The Matsumura version would not have been found in those books (most likely Funakoshi's) Hwang claims he learned from. So, in addition to Lee, Hwang at some point studied under or was affiliated with either a shito-ryu (most likely) or shorin-ryu practitioner. Ki Whang Kim, who was the Moo Duk Kwan's U.S. representative was actually a shudokan stylist. I think that this Mr. Yang (if he really existed) wasn't Hwang's only teacher.
Regardless of how one feels about the legitimacy of Hwang's background, there's no doubt if you are a Tang Soo Do stylist, he is owed some gratitude for breaking away during the unification. Otherwise, we'd be calling ourselves taekwondo and doing that Olympic style footsie they do now a days,
Yeah I am generally skeptical of Hwang Kee’s entire story. There is virtually no documentation of Yang Kuk Jin that doesn’t come from Hwang Kee himself. Considering how often he learned and integrated things indirectly, I wouldn’t be surprised at all if he made it up. In terms of him having other teachers, it’s obviously very political for him to deny not that he trained with other people that had karate experience but that he was never their student. It comes off as arrogant because I agree that you can only learn so much from books. The time he spent training with Won Kuk Lee and others with formal karate experience probably had a very big influence on his teaching and training. I think it would reflect better on him if he acknowledged this but instead the claim is that he was this martial genius. Personally, I don’t have any problem with Olympic Taekwondo, in fact it would be nice if Tang Soo Do had more organized competition. It is true though that we have maintained our karate roots to a greater degree than what you generally see in Taekwondo. I’m not sure if we should thank Hwang Kee for that though as later in his life he rebranded to create a truly Korean art, Soo Bahk Do. If anyone we should thank the leaders that left the Moo Duk Kwan when the changes got to be too much.
@@ModernTangSooDo While I do agree that people like Jae Joon Kim, Kang Uk Lee, Jae Chul Shin, Ki Yun Yi, Norris (my lineage) and many others who split from the Moo Duk Kwan decades ago deserve great thanks for continuing to keep TSD's karate roots still alive while Hwang and his son went a different path, if Hwang hadn't left the unification committee back in 57/58 , everyone who would eventually split from him would likely be calling themselves TKD right now. So, I do give him some credit for the initial branching off.
As far as competition TSD, a goal/dream for a while was to form some type of league. No lifetime "grandmaster" at the head of the table. Just a bunch of promotors in different regions hosting a series of tournaments. Open to all Tang Soo Doists, regardless of affiliation. No yuk roh or chil sung, just "traditional" forms. As for sparring, no stop and go point fighting. For me a mix of old school WTF and JKA/JKF would be the "perfect" mesh. Continuous fighting mixed with throwing and takedowns. No full on newaza, cause now it might as well be MMA or Kudo.
@@barrettokarate Are you the Chuck Norris Tang Soo Do Black Belt that had a Tang Soo Do school, I think in Oregon, back in the 70's. maybe 80's ? I remember a Norris Black Belt, Barrett, that would come down from Oregon to the Sherman Oaks school every once in awhile?
Great video. I appreciate the straight forwardness and sincerity. I have a somewhat similar martial arts journey to owning a school myself. Keep on the path sir. 🥋
~ M. Norton
I was an aspiring archeologist as a kid too 😂
I ended up being a barrister but my dream now, as young adult, is opening a karate club to teach and share Koryu Uchinadi and everything related to old style japanese and chinese martial arts culture and history.
If you can make a living pursuing your passion you are indeed blessed.
I've had the opportunity to train in Tang Soo Do schools that had no Moo Duk Kwan lineage and also Mu Duk Kwan and from my experience the non M.D.K was just like traditional TKD with the exception of the Hyungs...in fact I've also seen Traditional Tae Kwon Do using T.S.D. forms. The Mu DuK Kwon has some softer things and the way the execute the d.knife hand block from the triangle on hip. Makes me wonder if the name was the instructors personal preference.🤔
Good video Sir. I look forward to seeing more. 🥋
Would love to hear your thoughts on World taekwondo federation tkd and the Tae guk forms