Why Ballistics Gel Works and Caliber Arguments are Dumb
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 เม.ย. 2019
- Today, we're talking to a couple of actual ammo experts (not just a pretend internet expert like myself). I recently spent some time with Johann Boden and Chris Laack from Federal Ammunition and they addressed some of the most common questions you guys have asked me about handgun ballistics. Find out how we know ballistic gel gives us a good idea of what to expect from handgun ammo, why muzzle energy and velocity don't, and why the "caliber wars" are a waste of time.
Looking for Lucky Gunner's ballistic gel tests? Check here! www.luckygunner.com/labs/self...
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Wait, so now we’re just supposed to believe knowledgeable experts speaking clearly and concisely from their years of experience? No thanks, I’ll stick to comment sections and forums of ranting fanboys.
Awesome video.
I haven't read the comments,but remember that the company conducting the gel-experiments are the same people that work for the company that produces the ammunition. Expect a degree of biases.
Curious, but what bias would they have here? Their comments on bullet design and caliber were pretty general and they backed it with solid reason.
The only beef I have with what they said is that velocity doesn't matter much. That was an odd comment considering we've seen bullets not expand if they fall below a given threshold. That also matters when you have to shoot through barriers.
@@jayzenitram9621 Agreed. For example, Federal Hydra-Shok.
@@jayzenitram9621 They were talking specifically about the effect of bullets on human beings, and the point was that extra velocity above expansion threshold doesn't really make a difference until you reach rifle velocities: 8:03 and 8:58
"There is no incremental gain you get moving up to a higher caliber that is going to overshadow your ability to shoot the lower caliber better."
As my instructor says:"A .44 Magnum that does not hit the target, causes significantly less damage than any .22 lr that does.".
But what if that .44 magnum his the target? KABOOM
@@sykocaine what kind of sorcery is this? 😮
But Hornady says speed kills and you can get higher velocity with less recoil. Is it possible that's just marketing bs?
My point exactly
The best quote from the video imo. He isn't just referring to the ability to hit the target either. He's basically saying the damage done by a larger caliber isn't gonna be significantly greater to justify the larger caliber... especially if you hit the target more frequently and faster with the smaller caliber.
At a Texas capital dinner a Texas ranger was milling through the elites. A lady noticed that he had a dress quality revolver in a side holster. She mentioned that it was a very fancy rig and wanted to know if he was expecting trouble there that night. He replied, "Mam, if I was expecting trouble I would have brought my rifle".
LOL! Truth.
Or as Jeff Cooper used to put it, the purpose of a handgun is to help you fight your way to a rifle or shotgun.
He mean't wife 🤣🤣
@@MaxwellAerialPhotography That's also doctrine with many in the US military. The handgun is shtf weapon, for advancing toward an available rifle. or if one arm is wounded.
Passive Aggressive Negotiator or to put in the hands of people for whom it won’t make an ounce of difference in defending themselves but it would look bad if you didn’t issue them a weapon at all.
I learned more about the difference between handgun and rifle damage in this video than I have from watching hundreds of videos over the last year. This is great information. 👍
I agree!
"shoot the caliber that you shoot best" -- some of the most sound advice anyone could ever get when considering a carry pistol, or hunting rifle.
as long as it's not something overly weak like .22LR
@@killer13324 .22LR is better than nothing, certainly better than a knife. It might not be recommended but if .22 is what you have to work with then I'm not judging.
@@michaelc5386 except with that cartridge, you could empty your weapon and the attacker, if he's on something, will keep coming, do what he set out to do, and leave before dropping dead, defeating the purpose of a defensive round to start with. It may be better than nothing but its ineffectiveness is still a liability. any more powerful round would be far more effective.
@@killer13324 ... You could be right, OR a person might have better control with a 22LR and be able to place all 10 shots in center mass or head in which case I don't care what brand of meth you're smoking, a lead pill to the dome or heart will turn the lights off every time. The only real case to be made here is with cartridge reliability in which case any centerfire round will be more reliable in terms of ignition.
a .380 or 9mm won't be any better when hitting center mass, the science is in this video, and a headshot is a headshot, caliber won't matter much in that case.
I'm just saying, if you're confident with your weapon then more power to you. If you do your best shooting with a Desert Eagle.... cool, carry that. If you stack rounds with a Derringer, cool, carry that.
@@killer13324 Must be some magic crack heads you deal with on a daily basis. I don't know why that scenario is always brought up...have you seen crack/meth heads? I've seen plenty and could've dispatched all of them with my fists, let alone a firearm. People with drug problems and mental issues aren't the world's scariest threat. Especially when they weigh 100 pounds and could be pushed over lol
Probably the best explanation I’ve ever heard on the great caliber debate.
Agreed, best scientific explanation of rifle vs pistol, or PISTOL (caliber) vs pistol (caliber) i've heard.
People still won't believe what those guys say even if they are experts at what they do. We see all the time how folks without any first hand knowledge or experience qualify themselves as 'experts.'
@Shoudday Cha A police officer may have more knowledge and experience of a pistol firearm than a civilian with no shooting experience whatsoever or with very little but since U.S. police officers' jobs are much more involved in a whole lot of other activities than just 'shooting bad guys' then I wouldn't count them as overall experts either except for maybe the firearms instructors. I doubt there is a auto pistol firearm and caliber combo of any kind that exists in the world that can cycle 40,000 rounds without ONE SINGLE MALFUNCTION... Anyone who has fired a REAL auto pistol more than once knows from first hand experience how easy it is to cause a malfunction with an improper grip technique, no matter how reliable that platform might be. Whatever dude, you apparently aren't an expert on anything except exaggerations, lol. You can go back to playing COD now ;)
@Shoudday Cha Lol, sorry dude, I thought you was serious. My apologies.
@Shoudday Cha I don't know how I read that comment and didn't see the sarcasm in it. I must be tired and should put myself to bed, lol.
My father was a firearms expert for both the state of California and Wyoming in the 70's and 80's. He went to the FBI and most of the ammo/gun manufacturers to see what they did and how they did it to better understand wound ballistics, blood spatter etc...We had the discussion of "What is best to carry for self defense" and he echoed what they said almost to a "T". He said that in his experience seeing hundreds if not thousands of bodies and autopsy's, that caliber had little bearing on the outcome. It was shot placement, either intended or accidental moreso than caliber. He saw plenty of people killed with well placed 22 and 25 caliber bullets and did cases where people survived being hit with larger more powerful calibers. Training and accuracy trumps caliber and cartridge. Also, there was a great book written right after WWII by the US Army regarding wounding caused by all sorts of things from bullets to fragments of aircraft.
I'm sure you're aware that 22lr is both the most deadly and the most survivable round to be shot with. the single difference in mortality being shot placement. Not many ppl get murdered by a .454, but if you had your choice of what you wanna get hit with, you'd take the duece duece all day long. statistics are a helluva drug.
I bet they did not test on PCP CRAZED PEOPLE ? Then it is HEAD SHOTS !
by that logic, im certain you carry .22lr then right?? size and power make a huge difference, which is why 99.9% of people dont carry 22lr for self defense.
Do you remember the title of that book? Thanks.
@@michaelkraus4135 Not all headshots are created equal. Many parts of the head are actually less ideal to shoot than putting the same round into the thoracic cavity (i.e. "center mass") would be. Hell, even if you penetrate the skull and damage the brain it's not a guaranteed kill, much less instant incapacitation.
The only part of the CNS that can induce guaranteed instant "lights-out" behavior like that when compromised is the brainstem and striking it on a 3D target under stress is no mean feat -- even assuming your bullet travels in a perfectly straight line through the facial structures and skull to get where it needs to go without deflecting. You're not even talking about the famous T-Box, you're talking about a roughly 2.4"x1.2" rectangle (using myself as a reference) in the center of the person's face. That is way smaller than an index card. Hell, it's smaller than a sticky note!
So many euphemisms for shooting a person
"In the field" = "in some guy's guts".
Don't want the crazies yelling that gun owners just want to murder people.
in aviation, a crash is a "sudden, unplanned impact with the ground"
@@dkeberhard Thorough altitude check.
@@dkeberhard "Lithobraking."
"There is no incremental gain you get moving up to a higher caliber that is going to overshadow your ability to shoot the lower caliber better."
AMEN.
So the best shot with a 1mm parlor pistol is more of a threat than a kid with a .45? Of course significantly improving your handling is better than a couple more joules dumped down range, but that only works once you've reached a certain threshold.
@@RobertSzasz That's taking it a bit too far, but yeah - a .22 that hits is better than a .44 magnum that misses.
@@RobertSzasz You can always stretch a statement to a ridiculous, unintended extreme to prove it false. "So a spit ball shot from a straw from an expert marksman is more of a threat than a cannon ball from an amateur," etc. Take the comment in the context in which it was given. He's talking about normal calibers, 9mm to .45, specifically handguns. It's pretty obvious that's the context of the statement. I'd much prefer to face a poor shot with a 50 cal than a marksman with .22lr, for all the reasons stated here.
@@jeffreystayman375"there is no" kinda opened it up for that
@@howardfrankfort being hyper-literal actually obscures clarity, so isn't really effective communication. Context matters, and the context these gentlemen are operating in is quite clear. Does it sound like they're measuring tissue damage created by cannon balls? 99.99% of the people watching this video understand the clearly implied context of their statements, and therefore the contexts to which they do not apply. This is humans talking to other humans. Acting like a hyper-literal machine that can't understand context, subtext, and intention just creates side quests like this that have no bearing on the actual topic. You're not making things clearer, you're making them tedious.
This could've easily become just one big Federal commercial.
So I want to say THANK YOU for making something truly educational out of it instead.
ChriZ GaGuRoShoMo
Excellent point... I agree totally.
I feel like Federal and Speer shouldn’t need to oversell their products...
Their reputation is secure already.
This was a really great video.👍
It was though... they touted that their 9mm loads are so special they can do as well as a .44....
@@bassault What's the issue, that is true though, it's just not only federal ammunition that can do that, numerous manufactures have 9mm ammo that is extremely effective with modern bullet design. The main point isn't you need to buy federal ammo, it's that bullet design is more important than caliber. A modern self defense load in a 9mm can do as much or more tissue damage than a FMJ fired from a .45. Point being don't get hung up on bigger is better.
@@-Zevin-I can only carry "not expanding" ammunition by law...
@@nicolaalberti7736I'm sorry...
Ammo engineer: "with today's modern technology, we can get a projectile to do anything we want, regardless of velocity"
380 hollow point projectiles: "😂🤣"
"There is no incremental gain you get by moving to a higher caliber that is going to overshadow your ability to shoot a smaller caliber better."
Shot placement is everything, here's a interesting video I found on real world shootings th-cam.com/video/mBlNOi_Jids/w-d-xo.html
So stick with the .22 ?
@@Teimur1 I'm sure there is a limit but I don't know where it is. I would think even a .22 would change most people's plans but I think something larger would probably incapacitate an attacker more quickly. I imagine these guys intend the statement to be about common self defense cartridges.
I tell you I’ve had a sneaking suspicion for a long time that I’m more deadly and very adequately armed with my Beretta Cheetah 81 (32acp) with 13 rds of Underwood ammo than I am with any of my other pistols, especially like my S&W 629 or my RIA 10mm both which I’m not nearly as accurate especially shooting full power loads! 🤔👍🏻
I found when I purchased a woods gun, 357 magnum, I immediately, right out of the box, shot it more accurately than my 9mm semi-auto that doubled as my woods gun and EDC. I was very surprised because I assumed I would struggle due to lack of revolver experience and the recoil. So sure I get faster reloads with the 9mm but now I’m far more confident with the revolver because I can actually hit the broad side of a barn lol.
Translation:
Within reason, shot placement is more important than anything else. It's always been that way.
acoow pretty much
Yep, i guarantee you, i shoot my .22lr and 5.7mm way better than most people can shoot a .45.
To quote Clint Smith "Handguns put holes in people, rifles put holes thru people, and shotgun slugs remove chunks from people".
Yes haha! That's been one of my favorite quotes since the day I saw that video.
Great quote
They remove shit and you will need to call someone in with a shovel to clean that shit up.
Gotta love Clint.
...do I worry about jelly? OR?
Shoot him again?
...and again,
...and again,
...and again, until what I want to happen, happens.
@Sally Hillal true but the sidearm arm is there to fight to get to your big back up
It's amazing how the idiocy of the internet can turn even a concept as simple as calibrated testing medium into a basis for decades of argument.
I swear to God technology is making us worse as a species.
It's really "My opinion is just as good as your facts and experience." Look at how divided we've become as a society, same deal.
@@samdajellybeenie14 I mean, they're admitting that their system isn't perfect, but there are plenty of tests using far more advanced models, skull models, torso models, etc. to get more into the weeds if you really want to, so you can still use modern science and technology to answer your questions or, more commonly, assertions. So, if an opinion doesn't draw from any cited data, then it's mindless drivel.
The whole point of a free society is we can argue. Why do people get upset saying arguments are something bad? How is arguing making us worse as a species
@@safffff1000 is that what I said?
this is why trolls exist. its fun to mess with idiots.
"You cant really push a bullet out a pistol fast enough.."
Fn 57: "hold my beer"
Ruger 57: Hold My Whiskey
@@thisismagacountry1318 but have you seen 22tcm?
7.5 FK enters the chat
That 2,000 FPS for a 5.7 is for the P90. For the handgun it's only 1,690. Fast, yes, but not 2,200 fps, so it's still just a handgun cartridge. 22 TCM gives actual 2,000+ FPS from a handgun, though it's still short of the 2,200 that the man in this video quoted.
“Hou mijn bier”
Honestly, this is the best bullet video I've watched. Very well done. I have a new respect for the intellect of the folks at Federal.
Agreed one hundred percent. Never really heard it put like this before.
I've always loved Federal ammo as it has never let me down and now I know why. I've also been using Lucky Gunner as a data resource for a long time now. Love that two trusted groups came together on this.
I’ve spent hours talking with Johann about ballistics and he one extremely knowledgeable man! This is a fantastic video for anyone interested in ballistics. A must watch IMO.
And Johann sees the caller ID and says “oh Christ, it’s Jason again...”
Absolutely it was... i feel guilty having been a 10mm fan boy now, and maybe should carry a 9mm instead of my .45 simply for magazine capacity's sake. Either that or a keltec pmr30 if we're going that way lol.
I'm impressed. Two eloquent speakers, not a single "uh" or "um".
There's hope for the human race after all
9:01 & 9:44
Probably because they’re experts and this isn’t a live interview
it's called "video editing"
@@trplpwr1038 "oh no, people say um, Noah, get the boat, it's time for another flood"
I could listen to Johann all day, guy knows his stuff
8:11 is the most chilling description of death I’ve heard. It’s cold. Surgical.
"Shot placement is king, adequate penetration is queen; everything else is angels dancing on the heads of pins." I dunno who said it but it always seems to hold up to the data.
^This^
I am certsin Phineaous Gage would disagree with that....
This made my day
Yes!
So just use FMJ.
It's accurate and will always achieve 100% penetration. Everything else is dancing on the head of a pin.
Video review:
Shots fired 0/100
Information 100/100
Good job Chris 100/100
There actually were a couple of bullets flying ;)
With 100 thumbs up!
Extremely underrated channel and video. This is an absolute gold mine of expert driven content crammed into a mere 12 minutes
Where's Paul Harrell when you need him..
You be the judge.
Paul Harrel pretty well debunked this in his .40 cal vs 9mm video. As he pointed out, the .40 got consistently better performance against his realistic meat targets.
Additionally, when this guy says "we can get 9 mm up there to the terminal performance of .40 or .45", he seems to forget you can get those same improvements to .40 proportionally.
@@catlover1986, I believe that they said that there is a maximum a handgun can do. It's maybe easier to achieve it with a bigger caliber, but it can be achieved with smaller as well. Making .40 faster, it seems, reduces its performance (over penetrating).
@@andrijafrlan Except it becomes clear that over penetration is not the problem..rather under penetration is.
Against gels is one thing, against hard targets with bones and hard coverings against expanding rounds, they can easily fail to pierce, or do less than adequate damage.
In fact, .40 is always superior to 9 MM in sustained damage.
That doesn't mean 9 MM is inadequate, but it is inferior.
You read my comment to find out why I liked yours.
Sounds like good practical advice to me. Refreshing, actually.
Listening to knowledgeable experts deliver some wisdom in a calm and professional manner is extremely relaxing.
Everything's going to be OK.
LOL! Kind of like the Bob Ross of the shooting world...
@@CJLiveFromTheOutdoors A pre-covid comment.
There there.
Excellent video. Found the 2200 ft/sec velocity threshold especially interesting. I read a story abt a US soldier who was shot in the neck. He was partially paralyzed for; I think, a few days. The wound apparently did not do a lot of tissue damage. I believe the soldier made a full recovery. He was very lucky. I think the surgeons attributed the temporary paralysis to what is sometimes called hydroshock. Learned a lot. Well done. Thanks.
This is one of the most truly informative videos on the subject I have ever watched. I fully understand the FBI's reasoning for going 9mm across the board. I'm glad I chose a caliber I am comfortable with and can afford to shoot often.
What I’m watching: why caliber arguments are stupid.
Next vid: why 32 is the best snub nosed caliber
I think a rational argument for a certain caliber is okay though
Same here lmao 😂
That's me as well.
That 327 tho
This video came out a couple months after the "why 32 is the best snub nose caliber" video. So perhaps those at Lucky Gunner learned something? Or they are just producing whatever content they think will get views regardless of contradicting themselves. I hope it's the former.
"That you have confidence in that you can deliver, accurate fire, quickly, into the vital zone of your adversary."
lol what a badass this guy
He definitely knows whats up.
His accent screams "dont start shit, won't be shit" 😳
@Jimmy Jazz nothing to learn here. Dumb comment.
@Jimmy Jazz so is the person defending against a home invasion or burglary a scared cornered dipshit? Lol i think this commens speaks more about you then the "scared cornered dipshits" maybe just dont say anything next time it makes you look less than well intelligent
@Jimmy Jazz 8 years in the Marine Corps, and actual combat experience. Level of "scared" changes and comes and goes.. what matters is what you do with that emotion and adrenaline dump. Scared doesn't equal weak, defenseless, or helpless.
This is one of the most impactful informational videos on firearms I've seen. This is the kind of thing I'd like to see in a training program somewhere.
This is by far the most enlightening firearms video I have ever seen.
I love the way everything was explained.
This changes everything I thought I knew about handgun calibers
One of the best videos I’ve seen in a long time. Fantastic
This is an amazing video. Just pure commen sense from experts Thank you Chris
@DannyBoyDDD Then you really need a rifle. Hand guns are not good for that purpose. At least none that are usually carried by either law enforcement nor citizens.
@DannyBoyDDD Have it your way. You always do. Right or Wrong.
DannyBoyDDD That’s a good point. I think the unspoken assumption in this video was that we are talking about unarmored personnel in a self defense scenario. I, too, would love to hear what kind of tests they’ve done and data they’ve gathered on armored personnel or predatory game analogues. Certainly a 9mm isn’t going to compare favorably with a .44 when a bear charges you.
@DannyBoyDDD you make a good point. While I think it is true on the one hand that energy, "stoppin powah", "knockdown", or whatever dumb term of the week is being used is often overemphasized by mall ninjas and forum lurkers, on the other hand, it does matter a lot in _some cases,_ and doesn't just "disappear" because the guys in this video said so. I'm sure that ballistics gel is good for testing things, but the one downside it has, is that it's a _gel._
What I mean is, it's purely elastic, there are no hard elements, no barriers, Etc as you mentioned. I'm sure if you molded in some steel plates, or some ribs, or a skull, then the tests would take on a very different character. _That_ is when energy comes into play - when you have something that can't stretch.
As the German sounding guy said, often times if you dump more energy into a human target, it will just be lost to elasticity - in other words the temporary stretch cavity will be a little bigger on a very hot 10mm, then on a 40 S&W, but because that temporary cavity isn't really causing any additional damage, the energy is come or at least appears to, be wasted in that case (it you have a balloon that can stretch 20 x its size before bursting, then something that causes it to stretch 10 x, rather than stretch 5 x is going to look impressive, but functionally have the same practical effect).
But things change very quickly if you're trying to shoot through a car door, or window - or the skull or ribs of a large animal. Then, energy becomes very important. Then, that 10 mm, or that 44 magnum will get a lot more penetration then your mouse calibers, which might literally bounce off something like that.
So I wouldn't exactly say this video is wrong - just that it's incomplete, because it doesn't cover every possible scenario. And in all fairness, a video like that would be hours long. I think we can agree that if you are shooting unarmored, human sized targets, who are protected by nothing more than just clothing, then all the "regular calibers" - 9 mm, 40 S&W, 45 ACP, and probably even 10 mm - will all do a very _similar_ job, if using high-quality projectiles.
But, if you start adding intervening hard barriers, or organisms that are larger than people with a much more robust skeletal structure, then energy starts to matter again. At least that's how I see things.
I’m sure the experts at Federal (the best self defense ammo manufacturer on the planet) have tried shooting their ammo through barriers
Thank you, this is probably the single most informative video I've ever watched on ballistics. Long and short is make sure it functions in your gun, buy good ammo, shot placement is everything.
This is one of the best, most informative ballistics videos I’ve seen. Kudos on a job well done!
That's for sure the best "gun-related" video I've seen in a long, long time. Well done!!!
So I don't need the 700 ft lbs of energy from my 10mm ? Good because it was killing my hand.
I'll just stick with the 9mm which I shoot much better.
Go shoot some live game with both then rewatch the video. Their understanding of terminal ballistics is primitive at best. This “magic threshold” belief where a bullet goes from permanent wound only to massive temporary cavity secondary damage with absolutely no in between is silly and not backed up by evidence. If you want real image proof, look up the 500 JRH elk hunters who are running rounds below the speed of sound with non expanding wide meplats making wounds over 2” in diameter.
@@saviostrawn8737 "500 JRH elk hunters who are running rounds below the speed of sound" 500 JRH does not fly under the speed of sound, and believe me if it did you wouldnt be getting holes 2" in diameter.
cazem11 The hunter posting his pictures lists his load data as a 440gr bullet at 950 FPS. Not a full house JRH load, a mild hunting load. Google “2 exit wounds” on 24hr campfire. You can see the pictures yourself.
@@saviostrawn8737 look, anyone can claim their 440gr bullet is flying at 950fps, but logically it makes no sense that it could leave a 2" exit wound. the power of a round comes from its speed. a sub sonic 5.56 is just as powerful as a 22 lr. if you were to take a 500 S&W and get it to fly slower than the speed of sound, you be hard press to even get an exit wound. id need proof of speed and that the round he is shooting is 500 JHR with low load.
@@saviostrawn8737 OK sorry about you are right, excuse my ignorance, i just had a talk with my uncle about the topic he is a prominent hunter, but i will say in my mind it still makes no fuckin sense.
This is incredible information. So glad you were able to get this footage together. Thanks Lucky Gunner.
Dang, the most insightful 12 minutes of video on bullets, velocity., penetration and caliber I have ever watched.
Thanks, Lucky Gunner.
I have been shooting guns for a very long time (over 50 years). I learned some things watching your video that I frankly never knew. Outstanding...
If you fell for this you didn't learn much
yfelwulf Not everyone is a know it all of your caliber Wulfie. Thanks for your illuminating input.
Excellent. This is why I'm not a caliber snob.
I am a medical doctor and worked as a coroner for years. These guys are legit, well spoken and spot on. Very impressed. 👌🏻🇨🇦
What are your thoughts on .22LR?
Exactly what I was going to ask. And am asking. My hunch is that they take 22 very seriously. But we really need to hear it from them, the ones with years of observations.
Excellent piece. Best description of handgun bullet performance I've Heard in 50 years of listening to caliber debates. Makes perfect sense. Thanks and keep up the great work.
I know absolutely nothing about gun ballistics, but I totally understood this video. Thanks!
Really good video topic & presentation.
To bad it is all wrong... I will continue to advocate a 105mm howitzer for self defense.
I had a 155 for about 20 years.You would have loved to see the building hit at 200 yards.
OK, I have the 105. Where can I find a holster?
You pull with a truck/jeep hitch
Brad: So no concealed carry?
@@thomasraahauge5231maybe paint it to look like construction equipment (yellow/orange) and you could prob drive all over with it. concealed. in plain sight.
I liked the bit where he was talking about the temporary wound. I never thought about the elasticity of the human body doing that. That's actually pretty crazy.
Ciel just thought the same thing.
I worked as a part-time EMT for a long time. I never picked up anyone with a gunshot, but I did get to chit-chat with an ED doctor, and he said that you can't tell what caliber caused the wound, and he was absolutely a shooter. He said he'd never dealt with a rifle wound.
"Pistols are pistols, rifles are rifles"
My 27 inch long 500 S&W begs to differ.
Very refreshing opposed to the garbage that's often on forums and social media.
That's the most erudite, sober, realistic, sensible and logical talk I've ever heard regarding bullets and self defense. I have always held the view "if you can't do it with a .357 magnum, you can't do it - period". However, I do like the advice - "shoot the gun that suits _you_ and don't bother about the numbers".
Erudite? Really? I guess you forgot to call it esoteric and arcane.
dup g
"Don't get sidetracked by the caliber". Great advice.
Excellent!! Very informative. What an honor to share and discuss with those men. Thank you for this.
They didn’t even mention how much all of your tactical gear and attachments effect ballistics though🤔
Affect* lmao jk
Dakota Holland 😂🤣😂
needs more moral patches
TiglathPileser3 and challenge coins!
Jeff Gordan pajamas make good camo too.
I cannot tell you how many times I have been in an argument about how my little 9mm isn't good enough for self defense, how I should be carrying a .45 because but would just knock them right down. Yeah right! Great video 👍👍
exactly, and the "knock them down" argument sounds kind of like when people start mentioning stopping power. Stopping power doesn't exist. In some movies bad guys are knocked down from getting shot (literally pushed backwards), but in real life the physics of a bullet don't work that way.
Muh stoppin power😂they all fall to the ball
Yeah, that argument is easily refuted by physics that everyone learns in high school: for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Any bullet that hit a man hard enough to knock him down would have to fired from a gun with recoil so savage that _it_ would knock the shooter down.
Gosh dang, this is such a good video, I love it!
Thank you Lucky Gunner and Federal!
Very well done!! Good editing and great info. I picked up a few things of note. Thank You!
To summarize, accuracy rules supreme...In reloading the only velocity marks that matter are those at which a given hollow point (if one is being used) opens. I agree that we see many shooters who are singly focused upon the fastest bullet or the
one with the most energy and can't target that projectile worth a damn. A miss is a miss. :)
I would love to hear more about the magic of 2200ft/s great video
I'm not sure if it's magic, probably just basic physics. 2200 FPS is twice the speed of sound (every 1100 FPS is another Mach, at STP).
Now, admittedly I'm not a physicist or a ballast Titian, but I imagine that once you exceed that, when you're going not just super sonic, but twice the speed of sound, something about the projectile energy, the shock wave generated, Etc makes it geometrically, and not just linearly, more damaging to human anatomy.
@@Laotzu.Goldbug it's also important to consider that speed of sound changes with medium (I looked up speed of sound in water and it's too fast for bullets, though). I assume it has to do with pressure, if we assume the area of tissue surrounding the bullet is constant and put in a higher velocity, this means the tissue will apply greater drag. That drag has an equal and opposite reaction that translates to a force, and since area is assumed to be constant more force means the tensile strength of tissue is surpassed. But I'm just guessing.
@@ChucksSEADnDEAD true, but the human body is a very mixed media, and while it's often said we are composed of 70% water, there's still quite a lot of air space in their. I think the point is, while faster is always better, hitting a Mach 2, and even any of the different materials that are inside the target, is enough to geometrically improve wound and capabilities. Hence the 2200 number ( the air inside the body, and any organs, is compressed in an overlapping shockwave at that speed).
@@Laotzu.Goldbug right, I would just like to hear more about what happens at that velocity. I should have used quote marks around "magic"
I know of several people who have taken medium-size game (in fact, one was a bull elk) at 400 yards with a 6.5 Grendel. At that range, the Hornady 123gr. SST is traveling approx. 1800 fps. All the kills had significant permanent wound cavities.
I learned a lot from this video. Thank you very much. This information needed to be put out just like this.
Outstanding interviews. Thanks for posting.
AWESOME video! Those guys really know how to explain a lot of information in a short amount of time. I'm going to watch this one again! Thanks!
By far the best video on ballistics I have seen in a very long time!
Super helpful. I've never seen this broken down and explained so well. Thank you.
Awesome video! It's great to hear from the manufacturer that they spend a whole bunch of time testing to make sure their bullets do exactly what they want. 👊🏻🇺🇸
Federal HST is my carry ammo but gold dot is just as good. Both are what I will carry.
I've carried Gold Dot since 2002. There just isn't anything better enough to justify the expense of going through reliability testing again.
I use Hornady Critical Duty in 124gr +P or the HST Federal 124gr +P for 9x19mm. Note; John of ASP, Active Self Protection advises the use of HST 9mm. The FBI picked the Critical Duty +P 9mm for the new Glock 17M or the compact 19M.
Agreed
I too like Gold Dot in faster calibers or longer barrels, like 9mm, 357mag, 357 Sig, and 40 &W. For slower calibers or short barrels, I like the HST. I would not be uncomfortable if limited to one or the other, but would lean toward HST.
Agreed--golddots and hst's
Great information!
Thank you!
Definitely one of the best influencers, that dos not present thoughts buts studies and gives you informative facts!
Awesome job! 👌🏻👏🏻🙏🏻
Excellent video - out of the hundreds of TH-cams I've watched on guns and ammo, this was the most eye-opening.
What a fantastically informative video. Thanks so much for this!!!
I'm a bit jealous of their jobs! Very cool, thanks for another great video Lucky Gunner! 👍
Loved it. I'm technical by nature and have worked in a field that is all about specifications and stats coming up on 35 years. Great video, I learned a few things here that I very much appreciate. Thumbs up!
brilliant piece ...clear insightful and packed with no BS...well done
I'm so glad TH-cam recommended me this video, this is pure information.
WOW; LGA - I learned a tremendous amount from this video. Thank you so much. EXCEPTIONAL VIDEO Lucky Gunner.
Great video! I could listen to these guys talk about bullets all day. Very informative!
I was going to buy a Sig in 45 until I watched this video and now I'm going to go to the 9 millimeter where I can care more rounds. Great video!
I routinely carry 380, 40S&W, or 45ACP. I was looking at a new commander sized EDC in 45, but I’ve decided I will go with 38 Super instead for less recoil.
Wow this is incredible. Absolutely the best scientific explanation I have ever heard on this topic. Your videos are the best. Please make more! And thank you for all of your effort in these videos, I watch them over and over again.
This is incredible information in a very simple to follow discussion. Thank you so much for creating and sharing this video!
I really enjoyed this one!
Grandpa always said that an eyeball hit with a 22 is better than a miss with a 44 magnum.
Grandpa knew what he was talking about.
What a stupid thing to say. As far as I know, no one is proposing that you should carry a large caliber gun and miss on purpose.
@@zachary3777 Except it really isn't stupid because the main thing is that not very many people are going to be comfortable shooting such a high caliber handgun, so logically speaking people would have better accuracy with lighter handgun rounds, though of course in the end it all comes down to preference.
I remember seeing a picture of an old Indian woman (1800's) who killed a monster grizzly with a .22 single-shot rifle. She had no place to run, so she took a single, aimed shot at nearly point-blank range right through the eye; and lived to have her picture taken with the bear skin and her single-shot .22.
But a center head hit with a .44 magnum is far more likely to stop the attack. Which is harder hitting an eye with a .22 or hitting a head with a .44 mag.!
Wow, that was awesome! Thanks for sharing!
Awesome video great information! Thank you Chris.
The absolute best video on Ballistics I've ever seen. Thank you.
Thank you for this. And thanks to those two gentlemen for sharing such valuable knowledge.
Great video. What a great resource for knowledge this channel is. Thank you. Keep up the truly fantastic job your doing and I will purchase ammo so you can keep doing it.
Every "gun person" should see this video.
I have been saying for years that pistols kinds suck at stopping people, but we carry them because we can't fit a 30-06 in our pants.
Cajun Swamp Fox says you cuz we just use garand stilts in Thibodaux. A little stiff legged but life is about compromise.
Lol. That made me laugh!
In fairness, the 125gr .357magnum revolver round was in wide use for 20-30yr. Many federal agents, cops, game officers, troopers had 19/66/Colt Pythons for entire careers(20-25yr).
Yea the 125gr .357 has been proven to be a man stopper for years. I once read it had more one shot stopping capability than a lot of other rounds, just from all the police data.
@@silverhorder1969 Don't believe it. Research the 1987, 1989 and 2017 FBI studies on handun calibers effectiveness.
This was so interesting and informative in a very expert and realistic presentation. Great Work getting this done and thx.
I have watched hours and hours of gun/bullet videos. I have never ended a video feeling so informed and happy with my caliber choices. Thank you! You just got yourself another sub!
Really good info from smart people. Thanks for the video.
Great Video, while I always believed this to be the case I’ve never heard an expert explain it . Also I am glad that this video is out there for all these “I won’t use nothing but a .45 in my semi-auto “ guys . No matter how much I try to convince them that a 9mm is more than capable and you are gaining nothing by toting around your heavy lower capacity.45 except one thing ,and I do believe this to be a factor . The more confidence a shooter has in his firearm the more effective he will be to an extent as long as he is in touch with reality and has practiced with it . lol Thank you ! Love the channel and agree with almost all of your info. and learn a lot as well . Keep up the great work I think I speak for a lot of people when I say I appreciate it and enjoy it !
The 45 won 2 world wars son! Don't you forget it now ya hear me? LOL
Anthony Cather Capacity also makes zero difference in the vast majority of self defense situations either.
And weight has more to do with comfort than performance. Hell, in actual shooting, weight can actually reduce felt recoil.
One of the BEST explanations of handgun ballistics I have ever seen.
I love this video. As a first responder I’ve seen someone survive 5 shots from a HK45 at point blank range because none of the bullets hit a vital organ. I’ve also seen someone die from a single .25 acp bullet to the heart. Point of my comment? 1) There’s no such thing as a perfect caliber, so don’t get hung up on it. 2) A well placed shot with a smaller caliber is more effective than a ill-placed shot with a large caliber. 3) shoot a caliber that you can put the most rounds on target quickly and consistently. I’m no ballistics expert nor am I a combat specialist. What I am is a first responder that’s treated hundreds of gunshot victims in my 25 yrs of service. And one thing is clear with all of them: when vital organs are hit they usually die. So shoot what you can shoot with the most accuracy and practice often.
... if your being charged down by a bear you gonna want a small caliber?
@@farmersgrip this video wasn’t about self defense against bears.
@@brettb5089 it's saying caliber arguments are dumb .... and if your in need of stopping a bear caliber is important so one could assume if stopping human threats is your need caliber is still important
@@farmersgrip Right it says caliber arguments. Who argues that a 9mm is as effective against a bear as a big bore revolver. No one does. What you do hear people say all the time is I carry a 45 cause a 9 mm will just make them mad but one 45 round will drop them dead when in reality there really isn’t a big enough difference to matter the vast majority of the time. That’s what this video is about and you know that.
@@brettb5089 if a bigger bore works better on a bear it also works better on a human threat .... pretty simple
The best line is what Chris said to remember this isn’t a 1:1 ratio but it is a standard in which we can measure bullet performance.
Fantastic video! Somehow, even though all this data exists, people still espouse all manner of nonsensical bias when it comes to caliber selection. I carry a .380 sometimes, and I’ve had other so-called “gun guys” call me crazy and laugh at me. The scoff, even when I quote the real FBI data that shows unequivocally that there have been more fatal wounds caused by the humble .380 (or 9mm short, as it’s called in Europe) than any other handgun caliber. This is usually attributed to the fact that more women than men are involved in self defense situations where they must use a firearm to protect themselves, and the .380 is the most common caliber carried by women. In addition, the .380 is more manageable and accurate in the subcompact or microcompact platforms that most women carry. So, while my primary carry is a 9mm, I have no problem carrying a .380 and I would readily trust my life with it.
The only problem I have with people carrying .380 is the finnicky ammo and nature of most .380 autos.
Even Glocks 380 pistols tend to have more FTF or FTE than other models. So for that reason alone I generally sway people towards a 9mm. Very little noticeable difference when shooting the two, but the 9mm version essentially never jam no matter what ammo is used
Have fun carrying that 380 in bear country ... let me know how that works out
@@Scottross93 agreed. After numerous problems with our new LCP2s, I switched to a Glock 43 and I'm getting my wife into a Glock 19 for much better reliability.
@@farmersgrip Obviously talking about self defense against people.
Try out Underwood's. 380 ammo. It's pricey but imo they best I've shot so far
Watched this again and again and it's very good stuff from Anoka MN! Keep the great work up boys
Lucky Gunner is a great channel with phenomenal information
I’ve always kinda thought the Paul Harrell meat target was a somewhat more realistic testing medium because he has bones and meat and something to be lung tissue, leather and the high tech fleece bullet stop.
It's fun to watch but without controlled density of all the items it's not scientific.
nice
The issue is that it isn't repeatable.
@@justinv3080 Except that's why some people seem to value it more. Real bodies arent "controlled or calibrated". Ballistics gel is simply good for what it's used for... a testing protocol that is repeatable. But the human body varies so much from person to person. Even two people who are say both 200 lbs, one could be totally fat, the other extraordinarily fit and muscular. Pain thresholds vary as well, not to mention high stress situations and the likes.
I want to see gelatin performance because it gives me an idea of what to expect, however I've used many a round in hunting on hogs and white tail that dont perform anything like they do in gel or in a human body. I've also tested several rounds on pig carcasses as it's a scientific fact pig flesh is the most similar to human flesh and the results shown in gel often vary quite a bit from the performance on those carcasses. Granted dead flesh is thicker than living tissue but the results speak for themselves.
I was thinking of Paul Harrell's meat target while watching this, and what struck me is that one of the aspects of that test that always seemed significant was the damage to the simulated "internal organs" (usually watermelons or oranges). Based on this video, that aspect of the test seems much less accurate now, because fruits are not elastic like human tissue. For example, when shooting a 357 magnum at the meat target, the watermelon "lung tissue" completely collapses; based on this video, it seems that would not be the case with an actual lung. That said, I still feel the meat target is the best test out there for penetration through bone and muscle, which is important in determining under- or over-penetration.
Fantastic information, summed up in just 3 words, IMO:
Shot Placement Matters.
Sums up 1 point. A better summary is:
"Higher specs don't translate to more damage.
Shoot what you're good at."
Or if you want to be more terse:
"Specs don't matter.
Shoot what you're good at."
Very interesting conversation and topic.
Enjoyed this video thoroughly.
Well done... good stuff.👍
Wow, great stuff! Really enjoyed this video!
Thanks, that was real good information.