Len Lakofka wrote a magic system that's almost identical to the one in DCC. Complete with a table for each spell with different success and failure results. It's in Dragon #1.
Yes, historical spells were often severely restricted because they required special components or could only be performed at specific times or places (e.g. underneath a gallows on a full moon).
I haven't played Warhammer since I was a teenager but I remember liking their system with the winds of magic and unpredictability of most magic and tech powered by it.
I haven't played with the Vancian system for years and that was probably the best decision for our group. I love roll to cast with consequences for serious failure. The magic systems in L&D and TIC are amazing too! I have been using these rules even for games set in traditional D&D settings. And if I ever go back to standard spells I'll probably use the rules on Appendix P of Dark Albion.
I always felt like the spells in d&d were so diverse and interesting but the system they are framed in left a lot to be desired and could be made to be a lot more interesting mechanically and lore wise. The forgetting spells after casting I actually do like a lot but for specific spells and even rituals usually pretty powerful or specific ones. I think it lends the spell itself a lot more weight without burdening with uninteresting tedium the rest of the casting system. I also really like the idea of someone not fully trained being able to at least attempt at the risk of heavier consequences. It can add a lot of drama and tactical pressure in certain situations. And it can even be extended outside of magic for a lot of checks. It prevents the party from piling on checks ad nauseum without consequences but allows more approaches to overcoming obstacles.
It certainly shows. My M.A. in HIstory was in the development of such things in Western Europe, particularly focused on the G.D. in Victorian society for the few years it existed and the lasting effect it had on the prevailing culture.@@RPGPundit
D&D 3.5 already had roll-to-cast. It was called Spell Resistance, and most people hated it. Okay, I'm mostly joking (about it being roll-to-cast, not about people hating SR), but it is illustrative of an important factor to consider in any roll-to-cast system: failing to accomplish anything with your action sucks. A lot. 3.5 and PF1 tried to "balance" overpowered spellcasting with SR, under which the caster must either devote resources to ensuring success (reducing their effectiveness), select unresistable spells (reducing their effectiveness), or risk utterly wasting time and spell slots doing nothing against many of the more powerful enemies. I think we can all agree none of those are good options, but roll-to-cast systems also have to be careful that it isn't balancing magic's overall power by making it occasionally useless. Assuming it's done well, a roll-to-cast system can avoid the "linear fighters, quadratic wizards" problem, but I don't think roll-to-cast inherently does so. Mainly, I think the problem is a fundamental consequence of the levels-and-slots mechanic D&D-likes use, which could easily be mated to a roll-to-cast mechanic without fixing the underlying problem that casters increase both the power of their spells and the number of different spell effects available to them each day. Those two are multiplicative with each other, leading to the "quadratic wizard" since they gain both power and versatility while the fighters gain only power. So it's not really that roll-to-cast fixes the problem. Rather, roll-to-cast is commonly tied to systems that eschew the levels-and-slots design. My favorite magic system is still that of oWoD (old World of Darkness, not the janky reboots) Mage: The Ascension. I know, I know, you don't like White Wolf (I'll agree regarding newer White Wolf stuff, but I'm a fan of lots of the world-building and this particular magic system), but oMage is definitely worth a look for the magic that is its focus. It strikes a great balance, in my view, between "magic can do anything", "magic is not wholly reliable", and magic's power being a function of character power. You can try to do just about anything as long as you can justify the effect with the sphere effects you know; there are multiple routes to accomplish most results. More powerful/complex workings require extra time and risk. The vast majority of "spells" are ad-hoc applications instead of formalized spells like in D&D, promoting more thinking on your feet and outside the box. Battle magic is generally difficult and shaky outside of simple boons, though allies might buy you a few turns to work up something more impressive. Most serious magic is handled by ritualistic workings over hours or days as you accumulate and shape the forces necessary. It had a version of roll-to-cast where you roll a dice pool against a target number and count successes. More successes got you better results, and more 1s than successes meant something went awry (even if you did succeed on the spell). There were a lot of things you could do to alter the dice pool and target number, such as taking extra time, preparing tools, working in empowered locations, etc. Detrimental conditions and the power/complexity of the magic imposed penalties along the same lines. I also find oMage's magic narratively more satisfying than most. Its magic is an expression of how you believe the world functions, not just by your Tradition but down to a personal level. This gives it a wealth of options for flavor and mechanical choices alike. You're not Wizard #972,435 casting the exact same Fireball as every other Wizard (not to mention every other class with access to the spell); you're a Celestial Chorister who's faith grants you miraculous command over flames or an Etherite trying out your new Translocal Thermal Converger. Yes, you can add this sort of flavor on D&D magic, but it's not encouraged or even really noted as an option, whereas oMage makes it part of your character.
@@RPGPundit And playing one feels awful when you whiff your single attack at low levels. However, as they increase in level (and I'll specify that I'm mainly talking 3.5/PF1 here), they get more attacks and drastically reduce the odds of entirely wasting a turn. Conversely, casters start off almost never encountering SR, but SR increases in strength and frequency as they level. So at the higher levels (I'll just say 10+) where fighters and most mundane martials are generally accepted to be useless, the "balance" is supposed to be maintained by fighters rarely accomplishing nothing at all while casters more and more frequently waste their turn and slot. My point is that it's bad design to use "succeed on this single roll or completely waste your turn" as a combat balancing tool even if it did work statistically (and we know it doesn't in 3.5 and PF1). That's not an argument against roll-to-cast, just an argument against any mechanic such that character's entire contribution for the turn relies on one roll with near-even odds of success. Roll-to-cast can easily be done in ways that relegate complete failure to very low-probability outcomes (or remove it entirely), even using a single die. Gradations of effect are of course the common one, and I have no problem with that. PF2's shift in that direction (4 possible outcomes for most spell saves) was something I liked very much, in spite of most of its spellcasting changes being somewhere between "meh" and "actively bad". Frankly, I'm not a huge fan of any mechanic that commonly results in a player accomplishing nothing in combat. I'm also not a fan of so-called "fail forward" mechanics, though. If I were to design a system completely from scratch, I would probably have attacks only miss entirely on whatever constitutes a critical failure and otherwise inflict damage proportional to how much the roll beat the target by. Damage is often treated as an abstraction of near-misses anyway. Skill rolls outside of combat are a little trickier to me because there is no immediate, consistent consequence for failing many of them. The vast majority of consequences boil down to "you spend extra time" and whatever the GM decides based on that. In that light, something similar to "fail forward" actually makes some sense; essentially the roll (assuming the task is repeatable and possible) is about time spent and what complications may arise, not whether you can succeed.
And that is ridiculous too. There is a reason that armor and shields were created and parrying is a skill. You can't miss a melee attack, unless you extremely incompetent.@@RPGPundit
Thank you. I have purchased L&D and Dark Albion. I am very impressed with the rich world and attention to detail. This is exactly the kind of world/game experience I am looking for, bravo. I am currently working on my own world and mechanics, drawing inspiration from your work.
Unless that wizard exists in a D&D reality, on which case the knife will only do 1d4 damage, and then the wizard will just turn unfazed and fry you with a Lightning Bolt or something. =P
@@shockerck4465 Depends on the edition of the game (some of them give you a Concentration check, or something) and whether the wizard was casting at the moment they got hit. There's always the next round.
To be fair, Vlad is probably a high level rogue/assassin, with sneak attack adding many d6 to the d4 base damage, and a death attack which may take the wizard out either with damage or an instant kill, and even if not taken out, since the Concentration check is based on damage taken, the spell should fail.
@@shockerck4465 you usually cant interrupt the casting a spell, but instead get opportunity attacks. This changes if the spell is continuous and requires concentration, and the edition
I love roll-to-cast. I forget if your systems have this but the way I do it is if a magic user fails a roll, they additionally take a cumulative -1 to all future casting checks until they have a full night's rest.
Hmm... Spell check based system sounds interesting, but I tend to prefer rather than magic failing, doing it poorly just means it tires out or even hurts the user (in part because I like the idea of magic being an innate part of a person); as such, I like things like how Shadowrun does it, in that when you cast a spell, you roll to not only see how hard you hit the enemy, but also to keep the magic from burning up your own life in the process.
What fixes D&D magic instantly is by simply removing direct attack spells like fireballs as instant action spells and replace touch attack spells with nasty penalties on the targets instead of hitpoint loss. Then collapse all similar spells into a form of "root spell" that can be cAST without limit similar to cantrips. The root spell includes all scaled forms of the spell from 1st to 9th level. Only when using scaled versions of the root spell things require a success roll unless certain requirements are met. This removes the hitpoint damage competition between weapon users and magic users and makes magic easier to acquire through root magic spells that are the basic form of a whole family of spells and gives tons of options on the way without the magic user having to make too many hard decisions on which spell to memorize. Suddenly gaming sessions are fun again and not about everyone trying to figure out ways to maximaze damage output. Now they have to find creative ways to combine their actions to overcome challenges instead of just blasting everything from afar. root spell suggestions: telepathy, telekinesis, communion / divination, curses, transmutation, transformation etc. Inspire yourself by the different forms of the existing spells and make smooth gradients throughout all levels If you want to keep the direct damage spells around just make them slow long range siege spells so wizards can lay down some heavy fire from afar but incapable to use those on a moments notice in close quarter combat
(I am writing this before I finish watching, so hopefully I am not just writing what already appears in the video.) The two (primary) things that drove me away from D&D were Hit Points and Vancian Magic. I hated both. I've adjusted my way of thinking when it comes to Hit Points and now use them in combination with Body Points, making a system similar to Fate's Stress and Consequenses. It's not perfect, but it's a drastic improvement. For magic, the main issue I had was the forgetting of the spells. That struck me as ridiculous. I played around with various house rules, but in the end, the easiest thing (and the thing that allowed for much of the D&D "feel" to be retained) was using it 95% as written, but just ignoring the part about forgetting once cast. So if a magic-user can memorize and cast 3 level 1 spells per day, I follow that, but let him choose to cast each spell once, one spell 3 times, or a combination of 2 spells once and another spell once. This stays close to the original rules but with more logic and flexibility.
Big fan of your work, thanks for all you do! Any advice for home brewing some powers for heathen priests of Nodens? Or maybe like an Irish Faoladh character?
Well, Nodens was a god of the sea, of healing, of dreams, and dogs (which may have been associated with protection or healing). We know that holy places of Nodens contained pools for healing, and that people who went to those holy places would sleep there in the hopes of getting prophetic dreams. So the powers related to Nodens should related to those various qualities. Thanks for the praise, please share the video and spread the word!
@@RPGPundit Thanks, helps a ton. Been kind of digging the idea of brewing some powers for priests of the old pagan gods. Your cult book got the creative juices flowing
Have you ever looked into the white wolf mage system of magic. Where you have spheres of such as mind power or matter manipulation and you create powers based on the spheres you have.
My issue is the wild shape thing A druid has to see the animal But a changeling can just turn Granted, I made this up though A druid turns into a legit animal, so much that even the blood test will come back as that creature A changling or other users turning into a animal just turns into the image and not a real thing
Hey pundit, could you please make a video on proper note keeping. I’m dying to know how you keep track of all your npcs and locations in your long term games
Interesting video. The (Much hated) Psionics Handbook for AD&D had a similar system where you roll to see if you succeed or fail. Warhammer Fantasy upped it even more, and you could get royally fucked for a bad roll. I believe a vaild argument against spell checks in D&D would be that low level casters, especially wizards, have very limited resources as is, and having a decent chance of failure can frustrate the player and make his character less useful.
Except that to counterbalance that, whenever a wizard succeeds in casting a spell, he can continue casting it. So a wizard has to think carefully about when he risks casting it, but may have the chance to cast his spell multiple times.
You know and maybe it's just me but sometimes I wonder if d&d vancian style magic should be seen more of as a magic item anyone can use rather than a spell system
There's a magic system from 2019 I just discovered. It's called the Eight Elements. Each element has an opposing element, and they can be combined for diverse effects. There are other rules, and unusual mechanics. It's a freeform system, with GM and player collabing on desired effects and results. It's short and dense, and the pdf is cheap. I'm not a salesman, just a grognard who's been looking for a better magic system for decades. And the search goes on...
Well, in Lion & Dragon the difference is that clerics just have to do a quick prayer for their miraculous powers, while wizards have to do a whole process of ritual work.
Going away from vancient magic is the best thing that can happen for the OSR and most rpg systems. In my view it already seems the majority of the OSR is moving away from that style of magic anyhow which is great!, just like many have dropped the vague and lack of sense AC for Damage reduction for Armor and a different attribute for Defense instead. Just makes way more sense these few changes does not make the game any less DnD as long as they still keep the basic concept and ideals within the system I see no problem adjusting some of these issues.
Pundit I am going to start my Frogland Campaign for Lion and Dragon I have some ideas for stuff the PCs can do, like get St. Crispin's skull, the point of the Holy Spear, and Cortana's sister swords. I was wondering, are there any sources about 1450-1485 france you'd recommend Also, i was thinking of writing the Campaign as a source book in the future, with your blessing, of course I wont do it, if you arent comfortable with me doing it
@@RPGPundit Thanks man I only asked because I didn't wanna step on your toes Would I need to alter anything, like monsters, or can I use the same ones from LnD, like the Frogmen
Whitehack's magic system is far more versatile and fun than yours, D&D's or DCC's magic systems; while still maintaining the feeling of being chaotic and unpredictable.
@@RPGPundit I've never had a bad experience with it. DCC always had the problem where you roll to cast, then the player and the dm both spend 10 minutes or more figuring out how the predetermined result functions. In my opinion it always significantly slowed the game down and made every player lose interest in what was happening. In my experience with whitehack most spellcasting attempts only required the player to say what they wanted to do and the dm then told them the cost, the player rolls and it's concluded in less than a minute without requiring anyone to flip through a massive tome and read multiple paragraphs. Lion & Dragon's magic system is by far the best for medieval authentic gameplay, but I would have to argue that for high fantasy rpgs DCC's magic system is one of the worst.
Basically magic needs to be far from reliable as a generic tool, or else everyone could wave their wands around, and upon speaking gibberish things would go "poof." Although speaking aloud could be a good 'confidence check' before casting (a) spell/charm. >.
Nothing will be better than a woke authors system. (alot of sarcasm here) FWIW: Even the word "alot" has been canceled as being racist. Spell check changes it to "slot".
I know I'm 2 years late to this video but just found you via "the alg" while researching novel magic systems. You may not respond but couple of things ... 1) What you are saying sounds interesting, but is there a "preview" of say Invisible College so I can get some idea of it before buying outright? My issue these days is there are many dozens of neat sounding things but I can't shell out $20+ for every book just to find out I do or do not like it. Or I might love it, but simply can't use it for some reason. 2) Your comment about "spell points systems" making things worse is not really true, right? I mean, I play an old school d100 system with spell points but there is inherent risk to every cast and failures can often very seriously injure the caster (if not kill them). So sitting on a massive pool of power that lets you cast a lot of things, doesn't mean you should or will. 3) Roll to cast (challenge system) is definitely a good approach. And if you add into that inherent risk and danger to casting with no guarantee of success, it becomes even better. 4) One thing I find with players that are casters is that no matter what, combat takes a while at the table and to not provide very tangible things for those players to do with their characters creates a problem. It's boring. And when they get to their turn and can do nothing but hide and take cover because they can't cast non-rituals in realtime ... it creates anxiety in the group to speed things up. Anyhow now that I found your channel I'll check out your other videos!
Hello! Thank you for writing. The only "preview" I know of is on the Drivethrurpg entry, and it's not especially big. However, if you look through my channel you'll see that I did a few videos talking about the magic system of the Invisible College and its contents, and that might give you some details. Regarding spell points, it can vary on the system of course, and some might be better than others, but I don't find that a "mana points" system is all that emulative of either fiction or the way people attempting to perform magic in real life operate. Regarding your fourth point, in the Invisible College almost everyone is a caster (though there's an option to play a non-caster agent), and a lot of the ritual magic takes the form of casting first to prepare, and then having either bonuses or special powers (talismans, etc) that you can make use of in combat. In my own experiences running IC, the PCs don't tend to just hide. Keep in mind that unlike in D&D, there's nothing stopping Invisible College characters from using guns or other weapons. Nor is there as much HP disparity.
Well, there you are! You might want to check out Lion & Dragon then, and The Invisible College. Both OSR games that have totally different magic systems from the D&D system.
Spell points have their own problems. I don't know if you've seen how I handle magic in L&D and BoF, but to me that captures the unpredictability of magic without creating a tedious book-keeping system, which is the problem with both Vancian magic and mana points.
I hadn't heard that before. But I think that it makes sense for magic users in the context of myth and such that starter magicians are relatively quite weak, but high-level magicians become very impressive.
Since when does the OSR care about balancing classes? It's better if you want to emulate Vance's novels, but if you don't then it isn't. Everybody can cast magic doesn't make the other classes more versatile than the wizard? Thus making them unbalanced against the Wizard? Also "makes it more realistic" WTAF!? I don't want nor need "realism" in my elf games, I want fantasy, escapism, it has to be internally consistent with the world, nothing else matters.
By "realistic" here I mean more in following with the traditional western depiction of magic in myth, legend, story, and mysticism. As for everyone being able to cast magic, anyone other than the wizard will tend to cast it very poorly. And it's not all magic, just magic that relies on things like grimoire-ritual books of lore.
@@RPGPundit But what if I don't want to depict that? What if I want a different type of magic? Also not having anyone being able to perform magic, cuz in my games wizards/witches/whatever are born, they train to use their power but you can't learn to do magic.
@@geekybugle4241 I prefer my games to have verisamilitude I just prefer my world to have internal consistency Just because its an elf game, doesnt mean its allowed to be nonsensical
@@geekybugle4241 Even too can have verisimilitude It just operates in a different logical framework then ours But, I see what your saying BTW, how are you man
This is my magic system, it’s called "stone craft" (Tolad language: L'ndith /ləndiθ/): -Stone craft can have many potential uses, both necessary (transportation, medicine) and trivial (cosmetics, entertainment), but it is seldom used (usually only by elites and scholars) because it can be dangerous. Stone craft manifests itself through precious crystals, called "wizard stones" (or 'khridhvel’nt' /χriðvɛlənt/ in the Tolad /tɔlad/ language). Users summon Stone craft by properly reciting Tolad incantations while making physical contact with wizard stones. If used properly, Stone craft can help its users solve problems and give the user powers such as teleportation, healing, disguise, etc. -Stone craft is mostly used by elites and scholars, as they have the resources to obtain wizard stones and learn incantations in Tolad. Although extremely rare, a handful of individuals (regardless of class) are predisposed by birth to contain quantities of wizard stones in their blood streams, which enables such individuals, called the "stone-blooded" (or 'l’ndrogh' /ləndrɔʁ), to use (or be used for) Tolad incantations without crystals. -Natural wizard stones is a limited resource which is strictly guarded by henchmen who work for the elites. However, some scholars can secretly synthesize artificial wizard stones by using fragments of natural crystals to convert other matter into it. Elites consider this conversion theft, and make attempts to persecute scholars and the stone-blooded for their usage. Stone craft can become addictive if used multiple times during a short period. For incantations, unrounded vowels require two wizard stones (for height and backness) while rounded vowels require a third for roundedness; length and stress also warrant more. Voiceless consonants require two (for place and manner of articulation) with voice and ejectivity also warranting more. Users can be defeated by simply running out of it or using it incorrectly. -After being used for an incantation, wizard stones quickly sublimate into an odorless, toxic gas which can cause temporary paralysis/vision impairment if inhaled (although this usually isn’t fatal and lasts on average temporarily for ten-15 minutes). Large scale sublimation can cause pollution and collateral damage to ecosystems. The stone-blooded are sought after and are particularly vulnerable to abduction/slavery for their natural abundance of wizard stones. Criminals are often punished with harmful incantations (in addition to the temporary paralysis/vision impairment). Wizard stones can be used to cure debilitating illnesses, but there is a price to pay; that illness must be transferred to another lifeform (usually to the aforementioned criminals). Anti-elitist possession of wizard stones is often severely punished by the elites, who fear class mobility from its usage by lower classes. -Wizard stones were created naturally by “paramount comets” (or 'k’al’nv’t' /kʼalənvət/), which impacted and their supernatural minerals became embedded within the ground. Eons later, the Tol tribes settled throughout the rugged landscape which was shaped by craters from paramount comets. As the Tol civilization developed, farmers, paid laborers, slaves, and other workers participated in architecture projects and engineering endeavors, including construction, agriculture and landscaping. One day, according to legend, four Tol slaves were ordered by their master to explore a cave in search of fresh drinking water. One of them brought a torch so they could see through the darkness and deep within the cave, they discovered beautiful rock formations covered in crystals. After one if the slaves yelled in amazement, the unstable ceiling caved in and they were buried in an avalanche of crystals. They were wounded and crystal particles became imbued in their blood streams as a result. Only one of the slaves was still conscious afterwards and made cries for help. To his amazement, the stones surrounding his body sublimated and then he passed out from blood loss and the toxic fumes. Hours later, the four slaves regained consciousness in the cave and miraculously escaped from the pile of crystals. Their language, the Tolad language, was the first language ever uttered within the crystal’s vicinity, which triggered a mutation that only allowed the crystals understand Tolad. There may be undiscovered crystals that haven’t been exposed to Tolad and thus available for another language. They were physiologically altered by the crystals, it fused with their dna and several of their descendants became the stone-blooded from the wizard stone's dominant gene. After emerging from the cave, the four men used their new abilities to free themselves from slavery and become a quadrumvirate which would unite the Tol tribes beneath a federation. Their cooperation and even distribution of land to rule within the federation enabled an era of peace and prosperity for the Tol federation, which balkanized after their deaths. During the power vacuum, Tol elites usurped control of separate territories and became fiercely protective of the wizard stones, often warring with each other over the crystals. Scholars were employed by the elites to study the wizard stones so that elites could utilize their power. -Even today, Stone craft is strictly guarded by the elites and their henchmen, although its existence is no secret. Most people among the lower classes could benefit from wizard stones but most wouldn’t dare try to obtain it from fear of severe punishments by the elites. Additionally, Tolad language resources are scarce beyond the elites’ mansions. Elites and scholars have established a wizard stones society to regulate what Tolad words and phrases can be used for incantations. These approved incantations are recorded in a text called “the canon” (or 't’avdru' /tʼavdru/), which is updated every year. Some rogue scholars illegally practice their own unapproved incantations. Although there is no particular set of clothing that distinguishes users, elites are (needless to say) the most well dressed of the classes and thus, fine linens and robes could possibly indicate usage. However, not all elites can be bothered to learn about wizard stones or how to use it. Additionally, scholars, who are the most familiar with wizard stones, are different from elites in that they generally prefer to stay away from attention. They often disguise themselves among the lower class, which also include some the stone-blooded. The lack of incentive to procure wizard stones or resources to learn the Tolad language has made many lower class citizens indifferent to Stone craft. tl;dr: rich guys use magic crystals to do stuff sometimes.
Len Lakofka wrote a magic system that's almost identical to the one in DCC. Complete with a table for each spell with different success and failure results. It's in Dragon #1.
I did not know that!
Yes, historical spells were often severely restricted because they required special components or could only be performed at specific times or places (e.g. underneath a gallows on a full moon).
Warhammer Fantasy spell system sighs in 1986.
I haven't played Warhammer since I was a teenager but I remember liking their system with the winds of magic and unpredictability of most magic and tech powered by it.
Not trpg i know, just random thought only slightly related.
@@Naruga Well the Warhammer Fantasy RPG exists, so pretty related imo
@@Naruga close enough.
It was a table top where people got together and had fun.
That cannot be allowed!
I haven't played with the Vancian system for years and that was probably the best decision for our group. I love roll to cast with consequences for serious failure. The magic systems in L&D and TIC are amazing too! I have been using these rules even for games set in traditional D&D settings. And if I ever go back to standard spells I'll probably use the rules on Appendix P of Dark Albion.
Thanks! Spread the word and share the video!
Youd like Rolemaster magic.
Btw, thank you for developing these magic systems (L&D and TIC), Pundit. They really changed how our group plays and everyone here loves them.
I'm really happy to hear that!
You should check out the EZD6 magic system, it will blow your head wide open
I always felt like the spells in d&d were so diverse and interesting but the system they are framed in left a lot to be desired and could be made to be a lot more interesting mechanically and lore wise. The forgetting spells after casting I actually do like a lot but for specific spells and even rituals usually pretty powerful or specific ones. I think it lends the spell itself a lot more weight without burdening with uninteresting tedium the rest of the casting system.
I also really like the idea of someone not fully trained being able to at least attempt at the risk of heavier consequences. It can add a lot of drama and tactical pressure in certain situations. And it can even be extended outside of magic for a lot of checks. It prevents the party from piling on checks ad nauseum without consequences but allows more approaches to overcoming obstacles.
Just glancing through the pages that you showed on the screen, I must say that someone did their homework.
Indeed I did. For about 29 years...
It certainly shows. My M.A. in HIstory was in the development of such things in Western Europe, particularly focused on the G.D. in Victorian society for the few years it existed and the lasting effect it had on the prevailing culture.@@RPGPundit
D&D 3.5 already had roll-to-cast. It was called Spell Resistance, and most people hated it. Okay, I'm mostly joking (about it being roll-to-cast, not about people hating SR), but it is illustrative of an important factor to consider in any roll-to-cast system: failing to accomplish anything with your action sucks. A lot. 3.5 and PF1 tried to "balance" overpowered spellcasting with SR, under which the caster must either devote resources to ensuring success (reducing their effectiveness), select unresistable spells (reducing their effectiveness), or risk utterly wasting time and spell slots doing nothing against many of the more powerful enemies. I think we can all agree none of those are good options, but roll-to-cast systems also have to be careful that it isn't balancing magic's overall power by making it occasionally useless.
Assuming it's done well, a roll-to-cast system can avoid the "linear fighters, quadratic wizards" problem, but I don't think roll-to-cast inherently does so. Mainly, I think the problem is a fundamental consequence of the levels-and-slots mechanic D&D-likes use, which could easily be mated to a roll-to-cast mechanic without fixing the underlying problem that casters increase both the power of their spells and the number of different spell effects available to them each day. Those two are multiplicative with each other, leading to the "quadratic wizard" since they gain both power and versatility while the fighters gain only power. So it's not really that roll-to-cast fixes the problem. Rather, roll-to-cast is commonly tied to systems that eschew the levels-and-slots design.
My favorite magic system is still that of oWoD (old World of Darkness, not the janky reboots) Mage: The Ascension. I know, I know, you don't like White Wolf (I'll agree regarding newer White Wolf stuff, but I'm a fan of lots of the world-building and this particular magic system), but oMage is definitely worth a look for the magic that is its focus. It strikes a great balance, in my view, between "magic can do anything", "magic is not wholly reliable", and magic's power being a function of character power.
You can try to do just about anything as long as you can justify the effect with the sphere effects you know; there are multiple routes to accomplish most results. More powerful/complex workings require extra time and risk. The vast majority of "spells" are ad-hoc applications instead of formalized spells like in D&D, promoting more thinking on your feet and outside the box. Battle magic is generally difficult and shaky outside of simple boons, though allies might buy you a few turns to work up something more impressive. Most serious magic is handled by ritualistic workings over hours or days as you accumulate and shape the forces necessary.
It had a version of roll-to-cast where you roll a dice pool against a target number and count successes. More successes got you better results, and more 1s than successes meant something went awry (even if you did succeed on the spell). There were a lot of things you could do to alter the dice pool and target number, such as taking extra time, preparing tools, working in empowered locations, etc. Detrimental conditions and the power/complexity of the magic imposed penalties along the same lines.
I also find oMage's magic narratively more satisfying than most. Its magic is an expression of how you believe the world functions, not just by your Tradition but down to a personal level. This gives it a wealth of options for flavor and mechanical choices alike. You're not Wizard #972,435 casting the exact same Fireball as every other Wizard (not to mention every other class with access to the spell); you're a Celestial Chorister who's faith grants you miraculous command over flames or an Etherite trying out your new Translocal Thermal Converger. Yes, you can add this sort of flavor on D&D magic, but it's not encouraged or even really noted as an option, whereas oMage makes it part of your character.
Fighters fail to accomplish anything with their actions all the time.
@@RPGPundit And playing one feels awful when you whiff your single attack at low levels. However, as they increase in level (and I'll specify that I'm mainly talking 3.5/PF1 here), they get more attacks and drastically reduce the odds of entirely wasting a turn. Conversely, casters start off almost never encountering SR, but SR increases in strength and frequency as they level. So at the higher levels (I'll just say 10+) where fighters and most mundane martials are generally accepted to be useless, the "balance" is supposed to be maintained by fighters rarely accomplishing nothing at all while casters more and more frequently waste their turn and slot.
My point is that it's bad design to use "succeed on this single roll or completely waste your turn" as a combat balancing tool even if it did work statistically (and we know it doesn't in 3.5 and PF1). That's not an argument against roll-to-cast, just an argument against any mechanic such that character's entire contribution for the turn relies on one roll with near-even odds of success. Roll-to-cast can easily be done in ways that relegate complete failure to very low-probability outcomes (or remove it entirely), even using a single die. Gradations of effect are of course the common one, and I have no problem with that. PF2's shift in that direction (4 possible outcomes for most spell saves) was something I liked very much, in spite of most of its spellcasting changes being somewhere between "meh" and "actively bad".
Frankly, I'm not a huge fan of any mechanic that commonly results in a player accomplishing nothing in combat. I'm also not a fan of so-called "fail forward" mechanics, though. If I were to design a system completely from scratch, I would probably have attacks only miss entirely on whatever constitutes a critical failure and otherwise inflict damage proportional to how much the roll beat the target by. Damage is often treated as an abstraction of near-misses anyway.
Skill rolls outside of combat are a little trickier to me because there is no immediate, consistent consequence for failing many of them. The vast majority of consequences boil down to "you spend extra time" and whatever the GM decides based on that. In that light, something similar to "fail forward" actually makes some sense; essentially the roll (assuming the task is repeatable and possible) is about time spent and what complications may arise, not whether you can succeed.
@@RPGPundit and enemies succeed their spell save all the time too.
And that is ridiculous too. There is a reason that armor and shields were created and parrying is a skill. You can't miss a melee attack, unless you extremely incompetent.@@RPGPundit
Thank you.
I have purchased L&D and Dark Albion. I am very impressed with the rich world and attention to detail.
This is exactly the kind of world/game experience I am looking for, bravo.
I am currently working on my own world and mechanics, drawing inspiration from your work.
Thank you very much! Please spread the word!
@@RPGPundit sure thing. I often recommend L&D on Reddit. Thank you
Yes, I brought roll-to-cast into my B/X game, and it was one of the best house rules by far.
"That just makes every wizard an accountant"
well they've got to have a day job to pay off those student loans
"No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style" :
Vladimir Taltos
Unless that wizard exists in a D&D reality, on which case the knife will only do 1d4 damage, and then the wizard will just turn unfazed and fry you with a Lightning Bolt or something. =P
@@VisionStorm1 really? I thought rules were that the spell is disrupted, its lost, and he must start again.
@@shockerck4465 Depends on the edition of the game (some of them give you a Concentration check, or something) and whether the wizard was casting at the moment they got hit. There's always the next round.
To be fair, Vlad is probably a high level rogue/assassin, with sneak attack adding many d6 to the d4 base damage, and a death attack which may take the wizard out either with damage or an instant kill, and even if not taken out, since the Concentration check is based on damage taken, the spell should fail.
@@shockerck4465 you usually cant interrupt the casting a spell, but instead get opportunity attacks. This changes if the spell is continuous and requires concentration, and the edition
I love roll-to-cast. I forget if your systems have this but the way I do it is if a magic user fails a roll, they additionally take a cumulative -1 to all future casting checks until they have a full night's rest.
In mine the magician simply can't succeed at the failed spell again unless he gets a night's rest.
First time I notice your freemason ring, dude!
Hmm... Spell check based system sounds interesting, but I tend to prefer rather than magic failing, doing it poorly just means it tires out or even hurts the user (in part because I like the idea of magic being an innate part of a person); as such, I like things like how Shadowrun does it, in that when you cast a spell, you roll to not only see how hard you hit the enemy, but also to keep the magic from burning up your own life in the process.
What fixes D&D magic instantly is by simply removing direct attack spells like fireballs as instant action spells and replace touch attack spells with nasty penalties on the targets instead of hitpoint loss. Then collapse all similar spells into a form of "root spell" that can be cAST without limit similar to cantrips. The root spell includes all scaled forms of the spell from 1st to 9th level. Only when using scaled versions of the root spell things require a success roll unless certain requirements are met. This removes the hitpoint damage competition between weapon users and magic users and makes magic easier to acquire through root magic spells that are the basic form of a whole family of spells and gives tons of options on the way without the magic user having to make too many hard decisions on which spell to memorize. Suddenly gaming sessions are fun again and not about everyone trying to figure out ways to maximaze damage output. Now they have to find creative ways to combine their actions to overcome challenges instead of just blasting everything from afar.
root spell suggestions:
telepathy, telekinesis, communion / divination, curses, transmutation, transformation etc. Inspire yourself by the different forms of the existing spells and make smooth gradients throughout all levels
If you want to keep the direct damage spells around just make them slow long range siege spells so wizards can lay down some heavy fire from afar but incapable to use those on a moments notice in close quarter combat
(I am writing this before I finish watching, so hopefully I am not just writing what already appears in the video.)
The two (primary) things that drove me away from D&D were Hit Points and Vancian Magic. I hated both. I've adjusted my way of thinking when it comes to Hit Points and now use them in combination with Body Points, making a system similar to Fate's Stress and Consequenses. It's not perfect, but it's a drastic improvement.
For magic, the main issue I had was the forgetting of the spells. That struck me as ridiculous. I played around with various house rules, but in the end, the easiest thing (and the thing that allowed for much of the D&D "feel" to be retained) was using it 95% as written, but just ignoring the part about forgetting once cast.
So if a magic-user can memorize and cast 3 level 1 spells per day, I follow that, but let him choose to cast each spell once, one spell 3 times, or a combination of 2 spells once and another spell once. This stays close to the original rules but with more logic and flexibility.
Big fan of your work, thanks for all you do!
Any advice for home brewing some powers for heathen priests of Nodens? Or maybe like an Irish Faoladh character?
Well, Nodens was a god of the sea, of healing, of dreams, and dogs (which may have been associated with protection or healing). We know that holy places of Nodens contained pools for healing, and that people who went to those holy places would sleep there in the hopes of getting prophetic dreams. So the powers related to Nodens should related to those various qualities.
Thanks for the praise, please share the video and spread the word!
@@RPGPundit
Thanks, helps a ton. Been kind of digging the idea of brewing some powers for priests of the old pagan gods. Your cult book got the creative juices flowing
Linear Fighters, Quadratic Wizards. That's the actual term :)
Damn. Knew I was getting it wrong!
Have you ever looked into the white wolf mage system of magic. Where you have spheres of such as mind power or matter manipulation and you create powers based on the spheres you have.
I'm not a fan of anything White Wolf.
My issue is the wild shape thing
A druid has to see the animal
But a changeling can just turn
Granted, I made this up though
A druid turns into a legit animal, so much that even the blood test will come back as that creature
A changling or other users turning into a animal just turns into the image and not a real thing
Hey pundit, could you please make a video on proper note keeping. I’m dying to know how you keep track of all your npcs and locations in your long term games
Well, there might be a problem with that
... I do it all in my head.
@@RPGPundit No way
Yeah. I mean, once in a while I write a couple of notes but they're tiny.
Interesting video.
The (Much hated) Psionics Handbook for AD&D had a similar system where you roll to see if you succeed or fail. Warhammer Fantasy upped it even more, and you could get royally fucked for a bad roll.
I believe a vaild argument against spell checks in D&D would be that low level casters, especially wizards, have very limited resources as is, and having a decent chance of failure can frustrate the player and make his character less useful.
Except that to counterbalance that, whenever a wizard succeeds in casting a spell, he can continue casting it. So a wizard has to think carefully about when he risks casting it, but may have the chance to cast his spell multiple times.
You know and maybe it's just me but sometimes I wonder if d&d vancian style magic should be seen more of as a magic item anyone can use rather than a spell system
There's a magic system from 2019 I just discovered. It's called the Eight Elements. Each element has an opposing element, and they can be combined for diverse effects. There are other rules, and unusual mechanics. It's a freeform system, with GM and player collabing on desired effects and results. It's short and dense, and the pdf is cheap. I'm not a salesman, just a grognard who's been looking for a better magic system for decades. And the search goes on...
Avoid having to blow stuff up?!!? Bad Pundit!
Bad!
Bad!
There will be no more of this talk of _not_ blowing stuff up! ;-)
For me, both forms of magic are valid. It's just for different tastes, or better yet, for different roles in the party :)
whats your take on open magic systems like the one in Ars Magica?
I like different mechanics for arcane and divine magic. I like divine magic as the mystery and wonder of the gods through
Well, in Lion & Dragon the difference is that clerics just have to do a quick prayer for their miraculous powers, while wizards have to do a whole process of ritual work.
Going away from vancient magic is the best thing that can happen for the OSR and most rpg systems. In my view it already seems the majority of the OSR is moving away from that style of magic anyhow which is great!, just like many have dropped the vague and lack of sense AC for Damage reduction for Armor and a different attribute for Defense instead. Just makes way more sense these few changes does not make the game any less DnD as long as they still keep the basic concept and ideals within the system I see no problem adjusting some of these issues.
Pundit
I am going to start my Frogland Campaign for Lion and Dragon
I have some ideas for stuff the PCs can do, like get St. Crispin's skull, the point of the Holy Spear, and Cortana's sister swords.
I was wondering, are there any sources about 1450-1485 france you'd recommend
Also, i was thinking of writing the Campaign as a source book in the future, with your blessing, of course
I wont do it, if you arent comfortable with me doing it
You'd be very welcome to do it.
@@RPGPundit
Thanks man
I only asked because I didn't wanna step on your toes
Would I need to alter anything, like monsters, or can I use the same ones from LnD, like the Frogmen
Low bar. It'd be hard to write a worse magic system.
based
Whitehack's magic system is far more versatile and fun than yours, D&D's or DCC's magic systems; while still maintaining the feeling of being chaotic and unpredictable.
You mean a system that amounts to playing "mother may I" with a DM?
@@RPGPundit I've never had a bad experience with it. DCC always had the problem where you roll to cast, then the player and the dm both spend 10 minutes or more figuring out how the predetermined result functions. In my opinion it always significantly slowed the game down and made every player lose interest in what was happening. In my experience with whitehack most spellcasting attempts only required the player to say what they wanted to do and the dm then told them the cost, the player rolls and it's concluded in less than a minute without requiring anyone to flip through a massive tome and read multiple paragraphs.
Lion & Dragon's magic system is by far the best for medieval authentic gameplay, but I would have to argue that for high fantasy rpgs DCC's magic system is one of the worst.
Basically magic needs to be far from reliable as a generic tool, or else everyone could wave their wands around, and upon speaking gibberish things would go "poof." Although speaking aloud could be a good 'confidence check' before casting (a) spell/charm. >.
That's just a high magic setting
When I play standard D&D the Magic Users tend to have a fatal "accident" at around 6th or 7th Level.
There are old wizards and there are bold wizards. There are no old, bold wizards.
Why would you punish your players like that?
@@orionar2461 I only do that when I play, not when I DM.
End liberalism, help find a cure!!! Let's go Brandon!!! #FJB
Nothing will be better than a woke authors system.
(alot of sarcasm here)
FWIW: Even the word "alot" has been canceled as being racist. Spell check changes it to "slot".
There's no such word as alot. It's a two word phase "a lot"
Linear warrior, exponential wizard
10:56 - Ah, the good ol' "Stele of Revealing." I translated that about a decade ago... wasn't impressed.
I know I'm 2 years late to this video but just found you via "the alg" while researching novel magic systems. You may not respond but couple of things ...
1) What you are saying sounds interesting, but is there a "preview" of say Invisible College so I can get some idea of it before buying outright? My issue these days is there are many dozens of neat sounding things but I can't shell out $20+ for every book just to find out I do or do not like it. Or I might love it, but simply can't use it for some reason.
2) Your comment about "spell points systems" making things worse is not really true, right? I mean, I play an old school d100 system with spell points but there is inherent risk to every cast and failures can often very seriously injure the caster (if not kill them). So sitting on a massive pool of power that lets you cast a lot of things, doesn't mean you should or will.
3) Roll to cast (challenge system) is definitely a good approach. And if you add into that inherent risk and danger to casting with no guarantee of success, it becomes even better.
4) One thing I find with players that are casters is that no matter what, combat takes a while at the table and to not provide very tangible things for those players to do with their characters creates a problem. It's boring. And when they get to their turn and can do nothing but hide and take cover because they can't cast non-rituals in realtime ... it creates anxiety in the group to speed things up.
Anyhow now that I found your channel I'll check out your other videos!
Hello! Thank you for writing. The only "preview" I know of is on the Drivethrurpg entry, and it's not especially big. However, if you look through my channel you'll see that I did a few videos talking about the magic system of the Invisible College and its contents, and that might give you some details.
Regarding spell points, it can vary on the system of course, and some might be better than others, but I don't find that a "mana points" system is all that emulative of either fiction or the way people attempting to perform magic in real life operate.
Regarding your fourth point, in the Invisible College almost everyone is a caster (though there's an option to play a non-caster agent), and a lot of the ritual magic takes the form of casting first to prepare, and then having either bonuses or special powers (talismans, etc) that you can make use of in combat. In my own experiences running IC, the PCs don't tend to just hide. Keep in mind that unlike in D&D, there's nothing stopping Invisible College characters from using guns or other weapons. Nor is there as much HP disparity.
I despise D&Ds magic system.
And I began playing at 1st edition, when THACO was a thing.
Well, there you are! You might want to check out Lion & Dragon then, and The Invisible College. Both OSR games that have totally different magic systems from the D&D system.
Spell slots always sucked. I came up with a spell point system back in 1st ed DnD... no one wanted to use it though.
Spell points have their own problems. I don't know if you've seen how I handle magic in L&D and BoF, but to me that captures the unpredictability of magic without creating a tedious book-keeping system, which is the problem with both Vancian magic and mana points.
Gary HATED magic users. That's why they started out so weak. You had to "pay your dues" to get powerful.
I hadn't heard that before. But I think that it makes sense for magic users in the context of myth and such that starter magicians are relatively quite weak, but high-level magicians become very impressive.
Since when does the OSR care about balancing classes?
It's better if you want to emulate Vance's novels, but if you don't then it isn't.
Everybody can cast magic doesn't make the other classes more versatile than the wizard? Thus making them unbalanced against the Wizard?
Also "makes it more realistic" WTAF!?
I don't want nor need "realism" in my elf games, I want fantasy, escapism, it has to be internally consistent with the world, nothing else matters.
By "realistic" here I mean more in following with the traditional western depiction of magic in myth, legend, story, and mysticism.
As for everyone being able to cast magic, anyone other than the wizard will tend to cast it very poorly. And it's not all magic, just magic that relies on things like grimoire-ritual books of lore.
@@RPGPundit But what if I don't want to depict that?
What if I want a different type of magic?
Also not having anyone being able to perform magic, cuz in my games wizards/witches/whatever are born, they train to use their power but you can't learn to do magic.
@@geekybugle4241
I prefer my games to have verisamilitude
I just prefer my world to have internal consistency
Just because its an elf game, doesnt mean its allowed to be nonsensical
@@darkknightofhibernia4815 Verisimilitude = Internal consistency. I agree it doesn't have to be nonsensical unless it's Toon.
@@geekybugle4241
Even too can have verisimilitude
It just operates in a different logical framework then ours
But, I see what your saying
BTW, how are you man
Gary Gygax hated the Wizard class given all the limits he placed on it, as far as I can tell.
This is my magic system, it’s called "stone craft" (Tolad language: L'ndith /ləndiθ/):
-Stone craft can have many potential uses, both necessary (transportation, medicine) and trivial (cosmetics, entertainment), but it is seldom used (usually only by elites and scholars) because it can be dangerous. Stone craft manifests itself through precious crystals, called "wizard stones" (or 'khridhvel’nt' /χriðvɛlənt/ in the Tolad /tɔlad/ language). Users summon Stone craft by properly reciting Tolad incantations while making physical contact with wizard stones. If used properly, Stone craft can help its users solve problems and give the user powers such as teleportation, healing, disguise, etc.
-Stone craft is mostly used by elites and scholars, as they have the resources to obtain wizard stones and learn incantations in Tolad. Although extremely rare, a handful of individuals (regardless of class) are predisposed by birth to contain quantities of wizard stones in their blood streams, which enables such individuals, called the "stone-blooded" (or 'l’ndrogh' /ləndrɔʁ), to use (or be used for) Tolad incantations without crystals.
-Natural wizard stones is a limited resource which is strictly guarded by henchmen who work for the elites. However, some scholars can secretly synthesize artificial wizard stones by using fragments of natural crystals to convert other matter into it. Elites consider this conversion theft, and make attempts to persecute scholars and the stone-blooded for their usage. Stone craft can become addictive if used multiple times during a short period. For incantations, unrounded vowels require two wizard stones (for height and backness) while rounded vowels require a third for roundedness; length and stress also warrant more. Voiceless consonants require two (for place and manner of articulation) with voice and ejectivity also warranting more. Users can be defeated by simply running out of it or using it incorrectly.
-After being used for an incantation, wizard stones quickly sublimate into an odorless, toxic gas which can cause temporary paralysis/vision impairment if inhaled (although this usually isn’t fatal and lasts on average temporarily for ten-15 minutes). Large scale sublimation can cause pollution and collateral damage to ecosystems. The stone-blooded are sought after and are particularly vulnerable to abduction/slavery for their natural abundance of wizard stones. Criminals are often punished with harmful incantations (in addition to the temporary paralysis/vision impairment). Wizard stones can be used to cure debilitating illnesses, but there is a price to pay; that illness must be transferred to another lifeform (usually to the aforementioned criminals). Anti-elitist possession of wizard stones is often severely punished by the elites, who fear class mobility from its usage by lower classes.
-Wizard stones were created naturally by “paramount comets” (or 'k’al’nv’t' /kʼalənvət/), which impacted and their supernatural minerals became embedded within the ground. Eons later, the Tol tribes settled throughout the rugged landscape which was shaped by craters from paramount comets. As the Tol civilization developed, farmers, paid laborers, slaves, and other workers participated in architecture projects and engineering endeavors, including construction, agriculture and landscaping. One day, according to legend, four Tol slaves were ordered by their master to explore a cave in search of fresh drinking water. One of them brought a torch so they could see through the darkness and deep within the cave, they discovered beautiful rock formations covered in crystals. After one if the slaves yelled in amazement, the unstable ceiling caved in and they were buried in an avalanche of crystals. They were wounded and crystal particles became imbued in their blood streams as a result. Only one of the slaves was still conscious afterwards and made cries for help. To his amazement, the stones surrounding his body sublimated and then he passed out from blood loss and the toxic fumes. Hours later, the four slaves regained consciousness in the cave and miraculously escaped from the pile of crystals. Their language, the Tolad language, was the first language ever uttered within the crystal’s vicinity, which triggered a mutation that only allowed the crystals understand Tolad. There may be undiscovered crystals that haven’t been exposed to Tolad and thus available for another language. They were physiologically altered by the crystals, it fused with their dna and several of their descendants became the stone-blooded from the wizard stone's dominant gene. After emerging from the cave, the four men used their new abilities to free themselves from slavery and become a quadrumvirate which would unite the Tol tribes beneath a federation. Their cooperation and even distribution of land to rule within the federation enabled an era of peace and prosperity for the Tol federation, which balkanized after their deaths. During the power vacuum, Tol elites usurped control of separate territories and became fiercely protective of the wizard stones, often warring with each other over the crystals. Scholars were employed by the elites to study the wizard stones so that elites could utilize their power.
-Even today, Stone craft is strictly guarded by the elites and their henchmen, although its existence is no secret. Most people among the lower classes could benefit from wizard stones but most wouldn’t dare try to obtain it from fear of severe punishments by the elites. Additionally, Tolad language resources are scarce beyond the elites’ mansions. Elites and scholars have established a wizard stones society to regulate what Tolad words and phrases can be used for incantations. These approved incantations are recorded in a text called “the canon” (or 't’avdru' /tʼavdru/), which is updated every year. Some rogue scholars illegally practice their own unapproved incantations. Although there is no particular set of clothing that distinguishes users, elites are (needless to say) the most well dressed of the classes and thus, fine linens and robes could possibly indicate usage. However, not all elites can be bothered to learn about wizard stones or how to use it. Additionally, scholars, who are the most familiar with wizard stones, are different from elites in that they generally prefer to stay away from attention. They often disguise themselves among the lower class, which also include some the stone-blooded. The lack of incentive to procure wizard stones or resources to learn the Tolad language has made many lower class citizens indifferent to Stone craft.
tl;dr: rich guys use magic crystals to do stuff sometimes.