The wizard kicks the door in and pulls two wands from under his robes and starts blasting. His 6 charges each run dry and he pulls a quarter staff from his back and starts yeeting fireballs. That runs out, and he bravely bravely runs away because the fireballs should have killed that thing.
The wizard kicks the door and sprains his ankle because he put a 5 in strength. So he hobbles back, blows it to ash with a fireball, and pretends it was his plan all along.
@@BanditsKeep Our little group has gone to a magic system where a mage can cast every round as long as he has the spell committed to memory. PDM on dungeon craft posed a really interesting question: if a fighter can swing a sword every round, why can't a mage cast a spell every round? That's their core ability--casting spells after all. But the system he uses requires a roll of a D20 every time you cast, and it has a chance for spell failure and even critical failure. We are experimenting with a modified version of this system. It's really interesting because you then have mages who can cast spells every round, but the question becomes is this really necessary to use magic? If my spell caster fail, the spell fizzles and he takes a little bit of damage (1 hp per spell level), and if he critically fails the spell could just fizzle with ghostly laughter filling the room (mages suffers 2 hp per spell level), it could backfire on the mage or hit a party member instead of the target, or worst case the mage could explode or melt like a wax dummy, or grow 20+D20 snakes out of his body that will devour him on the spot. The chances of that happening are pretty remote, but it's still possible. So now spell casters in our game are always asking themselves is casting this spell right now really worth the risk? We have a similar, but different system for clerics and druids, though this has more to do with their relationship with the divine. Part of the problem for us is that as written, magic acts just like a type of tech. When you cast a spell it works just like it says in the book. And ultimately, that reliability drains the wonder and mystery and terror out of magic use. These are powers that essentially allow a mortal to defy the laws of the universe, so introducing a way that can spin out of control... We are still very much in an experimental phase with it. If it overpowers mages too much we significantly tweak it, or scrap it if it proves truly unworkable. So far, however, it's been really interesting.
In a campaign I once bluffed a party (5-8 level) into believing a 4th level magic user was an awesome power that they should fear, or at least respect enough not to attack. I figured they'd call his bluff then he would hit the ground begging for his life and (the reason he was there to begin with) offer lots of useful information about his former employer that they were hunting for. Instead he became a long term arch nemesis that they blamed whenever something went wrong.
I was looking at the Staff of Wizardry once and thought "How fun would it be to have an NPC wizard with one, but it was nearly out of charges?" Everyone would be scared of him and the item, but he couldn't use up charges casually. He had to conserve.
I'm a little late to the party, but felt compelled to add my 2 cents anyway. Playing up the "they don't know what you can't do" schtick, I immediately got the image in my head of a quiet, reserved wizard who wears drab clothing but the lining of his cloak has a bold dazzle pattern on it. He steps forward, flings open the cloak and starts with his grand soliloquy in deep booming voice, tossing out some flash powder/colored sand/smoke bombs. Then, of course, runs like hell behind the fighter... 'Cause he's intelligent that way.
I really like the idea of a low-level magic user accumulating mundane items that produce magic-like effects as a way that they would have used their intelligence and years of study to prepare for going on an adventure.
Numenera starts people off with small magical trinkets. A few more if you are a certain class, I think. Being Numenera, they are more like... Tech-trinkets maybe. You could add them to the equipment list as cheap and technically non-magical alchemical and mechanical tools. I probably wouldn't hand MUs a monopoly on them. Some fighter is just as likely to have weird magical glow-sticks concocted of bioluminiscent shrooms as anyone else.
In my campaign, I give magic users additional innate powers as they progress in level. The reason is that over time, the mystical forces that a wizard channels through his body cause certain changes to occur within them. Some of the changes are: 1. Beginning at 1st level, a wizard's natural aging process slows by 5%. It slows by an additional 5% for every level the wizard advances (ex. 10% at 2nd, 15% at 3rd, etc). 2. At every other level (ex. 2, 4, 6, etc) a wizard's natural armor class is improved by one. 3. At 4th level, a wizard can automatically detect magic within a 5' radius. This increases by 5' for every other level he advances (ex. 10' at 6th, 15' at 8, etc). 4. Beginning at 10th level, a wizard can only be harmed by +1 or better magical weapons. This increases to +2 weapons at 15th level, and +3 weapons at 20th level. These are just ideas. You may have others in mind.
I like that! I was toying with the idea of the increased AC as well, but was thinking they'd only have it while they are "holding" spells, creating another decision point of whether or not to cast.
Hey daniel - we met at Gencon last year - i was the Air Force guy that introduced myself in your breakout session and was a little giddy - keep up the great work w/this channel - you offer great insight & we share a background with the older versions of dnd so I thoroughly appreciate how you flex and modify that older framework -- sincerely, Patrick
Your entire channel is great, this video in particular. I'm definitely "borrowing" your familiar and wand options for my OSE campaign. Thanks for sharing your ideas!
Some of my home brews for Basic Fantasy: (1) Elves know one Magic-User spell, regardless of their class. So they can be a Fighter with Sleep, and really wreck that goblin band. (2) As a Magic-User, you add your Intelligence modifier to the amount of First Level spells you can cast. So a M-U with 18 INT can cast 4 first level spells per day, when they start as a 1st level PC. At 5th level, their spells per day looks like 5/2/1, because higher level spells should be more rare than a 1st level spell. Also add your INT modifier to the languages you know, beyond Common (and Elvish, if you're an Elf). (3) Dwarves can be Magic-Users, because they can make magical arms and armor.
I have been struggling with a similar issue with Wizard spells, and settled on the idea that the Wizard is able to create his own scrolls. I want to keep it under control though, so scrolls are not free or unlimited. It breaks down as follows. 1) you are limited to the number of scrolls = to the 2x the number of spells you can cast in a day. 3) it takes time to make scrolls. 1xspell level hours per scroll) 3) you need to "Cast" the spell in to the scroll. Thus making scrolls kinda of like a magic battery. 4) Making scrolls takes time and $$. 100g per 1st level scroll, 200g second level, 400g third level etc. 5) scrolls are a bit bulky, and susciptable to the elements. Water, fire, acid etc. 6) there is a chance the scroll you pull from your "scroll quiver", sack, Henchman, etc. was not the one you were looking for (I am still trying to decide on a fair but fun way to do this...I envision the whole Rocky and Bullwinkle, "hey Rocky! watch me pull a rabbit outta my hat!" sort of situation). I am looking to do a similar thing with clerics as well, only they can requisition potions from the local Church. It is limited by $$ (donations) and Standing within the chruch (level). This allows the party to do things like get access to a healing potion for example.
Similar to nobody knows what level you are, nobody has to know what class you are. Going back to the early 80's when I started with the First Edition, I wasn't a big fan of the classic "robes and pointy hat" look. I once put my highest score, 17, into strength. With an intelligence of 12. He wore a poncho and vest with lots of small pockets inside. Was he going to be one of those wizards that went on to reshape the fabric of the universe? Nope. But he could make a good living as a professional adventurer. I played him like a person who got into college with an athletic scholarship as an offensive lineman. He wasn't going to be valedictorian, but he was smart enough to graduate.
The best way to play a magic-user is to turn yourself into a chicken and have the party carry you around in a sack for the first ten levels. You just have to homebrew in a first level turn-to-chicken spell.
I'm sure you know the variation described by Dungeon Craft and others: roll for spell success, with some chance for crit failure. I feel like it still keeps the Vancian flavor if you're only able to do this on memorized spells AND if the crit failure is something that truly hurts and/or has a high enough chance to happen. You can further up the risk by increasing the chance of crit failure by +1 for each successive cast that day (DCC style, I believe). So first cast of Sleep only succeeds on 1d20 roll and it affects the party on a roll of 1 (quite possibly a TPK scenario). A second cast of Sleep again succeeds on 1d20 (maybe -1 penalty on this roll) with a crit failure on 1 or 2. This retains the Vancian feel since you can't cast a spell you didn't memorize for that day.. But instead of a spell disappearing completely from memory upon the first cast, it becomes more hazy to the wizard. Each successive attempt causes the memory to become more unclear and prone to corruption.
That’s not Vancian - though it is a fun way to run magic, I’ve been running DCC for a few years and I do love the wildness of that type of magic - Vancian magic is about resource management, not risk.
I like the wand/ familiar idea. That's really useful. One thing I do like from 5E is to allow the M-U/ cleric to cast any spell they know. I see you're playing AS&SH, that system gives casters bonus spells based on their ability score which is great. Clerics have a great number of utility spells, but in general you never see them come out due to the need to memorize healing. Letting them pray for a number of spell equal to their wisdom bonus plus their level, and then use their slots at they see fit really adds flexibility. Also, I need that shirt!
Using slight of hand against lower intelligence creatures/enemies is a great idea. With a bit of alchemy during downtime to create intimidating or awe inspiring (or blinding) effects would really help. I never thought about a hireling though, great idea. My next MU is going to be a mix of Stephen Fry and Penn & Teller at this point.
Some excellent stuff - hidden levels & the deceptive little tricks (loved the kobolds vs a line of chalk example) are especially good pieces of advice regardless of the system being used
Thanks for another great video. Another point to make is that the game was designed by guys who assumed there would be 6 to 10 people playing, so there would be multiple M-Us and plenty of tanks to hide behind. Like they didn't realize that not everyone had clusters of war gamers to draw players in from and most normal people's groups settled out at 3 or 4 players and a DM.
My last gaming shop fifth teen years ago, ran some Harry Potter like games, which due to the nature of people in their mid to late twenties and to their fifties, due to Rated:R for language and content we went from junior high school to junior college young adults. 3.5e rule Item Creation feat: Craft Wondrous Item, DMG: Creating Magic Traps replace all other forms of creation feats of Scribe Scrolls, Brew Potion, Craft Wands, and Enchant Arms & Armor. Average start level of WotC:Star Wars rpg was 4th -level. For our games it was 6th-level multi-class PC with two levels of Xp/wizard worth of magic items. So a 6th-level spell caster was regarded as CR:8 due to equipment. Instead of paying GP for items it was paid in with gp=Xp value, and sold as Gp for xp value, which level cap magic users. 2nd-level spell at 3rd-level spell caster ability cost 1,500gp/xp. Which is a month of slinging a stone to kill a chicken/rabbit/rat/raven for dinner each day. Upgrades, a sorcerer/wizard wand has the 2nd-level spells such as Enchant Magic Weapon/Armor and Mend to keep their wand from being accidently broken and can fire off Magic Missile or Acid Bolt like a pistol with an unlimited magazine of Ammo. Other wise wands for sale or weapons with special magic charges only have a magazine up to nine spells. Stander magic user N/PC, .. Rogue2/figther1/wizard3, CR:6 From all the dumb things my parents did and what my generation did, we all will be classified as 2nd-level rogues with Evasion from the number of times of avoiding setting ourselves on fire. From WotC:d20 D&D3.5e Star Wars soldier class compare to the optional rules of 3.5e DMG in skill/feat training to real life military training. We by pass Xp for killing or social reactions to just Training Time to learn Skills/Feats. Which equal to 1d3 class levels per year. So on and so such. Then is no zero -level npcs. After 5 years of clearing out your garden, farm fields, barn of rats, ravens, large to giant insects and other such vermin, ... AD&D2ndE, Fighter/wizard2nd-level then militia training. Rogues would be around 3rd to 4th-level. 3rdE DMG npc Commoner class would be around the age of 20yo will be a 7th-level single class Commoner. Or a druid .. sorcerer casting Plant Growth to increase the harvest thinking it was just hard work and not magic. Trained militia man veteran of a few battles that can Flank in groups, Commoner2/rogue3/warrior2, CR:5 2.) Magic Effects in Campaign. Spell: Good Berry, .. after casting it just means the PC find enough food without Survival/Wilderness checks to feed themselves for a day. Spell, Create Food & Water, .. find a pack mule with water skins, you can cook the mule. Be grateful you are not stuck in a rain storm drinking muddy water and eating worms. Spell: Cure Light Wounds or Critical Wounds, a second wind of vitality/Star Wars concept of Hp, Wound points = your constitution score for flesh & bone dmg, along with dealing with concussion and sprang ankle dmg. Other wise Cure Critical Wounds just grants the PC extra bed rest in recovering HP, wounds will not heal like the Marvel comic character Wolverine. Low cost in creating magic items from cheap looking mundane everyday items, so magic is everywhere without flashy effects and ramped superstitions. Fire ball is a grenade, Lightning Bolt is in your face Magic ! Spell: Shield, .. gives the receiver a dodge or parry bonus to avoid attacks, there is no invisible or visible shield of magic force energy seen protecting the PC. Spells: regarding PC speed or ability enchantment are just regarded as athletic adrenaline boosted effects. Back in the early days of 3rdE my first game shop ran a He-Man campaign, if Teela is the Sorceress daughter what magic could she employ as a Sorcerer and not a wizard that would come off as Athletic abilities ?
Some great advice here for making the magic-user count for more. I kind of dig the wand and the hireling ideas. They seem simple and low-potency enough but give the magic-user some extra functionality.
Would love to see another "build an adventure" video! I prefer magic users in the classic mold of seeker/keeper of knowledge rather than the munchkin-land version of mobile artillery lol. If the players "get it" it creates a great opportunity for role play.
That would add an interesting layer for the game master as well. interweaving the quest for knowledge of specific spells that apply to the unfolding adventure. Maybe searching for some specific spell to combat demons being summoned to this plane or an evil necromancer and only your magic user can find the spell that can counter this and prevent disaster. That has some great possibilities and I think you're on to something with this idea.
Great video. Good advice. Love the use of chalk to scare the kobolds. I give the 1st level magic user a wand with two or three charges. Detect magic and read magic are magical abilities they require a successful skill check during an adventure. Roll d20 below INT, and the defect magic is successful.
Hey dude, just discovered your channel. Putting the master in dungeon master. Loving the BX content, having never read or played it I have always looked down my nose at it for being basic - so thanks for that. Seeing the hex crawl generation was inspiring - while I dont necessarily think I'll run BX, will have to use a lot of those systems to run Adventures in Middle Earth! Cant wait to see all your content.
Thanks! Very cool. I’ve heard good things about Adventures in Middle Earth. So many great systems out there and the concepts we use for one can usually be ported to others.
In my campaign, I'm having MU's needing magical staves(commonly shaped like a ？? Shape but other shapes are possible) that are created by 9th level MU's, they have magically charged "ioun" stones that power up their spellcasting. But without the basic staff, victims get a +1 to their saving throws against the staff-less MU. MU's get one staff for free at character creation, but replacements are costly.
This was really good, like the wand idea. I think a select number of cantrip would be useful say 3 one combative 1-2 dam, defence 1 ac bonus and an affect trip, or daze.
Dragonbane always had a small minor magic category, and kept them around in the new english edition. As a rule, none of them are attack spells. A wizard who wants to attack a fool but has no mana grabs the biggest bow (or sling, or throwing dagger) their puny wizard arms can hold and trains in how to use it. The minor magic spells are small and situational. A spell to shake dirt off your clothes, make the temperature in a room or tent comfortable, levitate a small coin, light a camp fire in even bad weather etc. They are not completely useless but not as useful as a real spell that can heal wounds, set a fool on fire or freeze a river.
@@Sageofthedustypage I am not a huge fan of cantrips myself. I like to give wizards the same basic chance to use skills and weapons as a level 0 mercenary. So your MU can stab with a spear or shoot a kalashnikov like a basic goon.
These are all good ideas. I allowed a MU to hire a psionic npc who had invisibility as his only discipline. In combat he would attack from a flank or other "surprise" location. The player explained that there were two of him due to a magical mishap and his alternate self was a fighter. I use your MU as sage, with stage magic, stink bombs, and even powerful allergens to keep all the normals guessing.
I could, and may in the future, comment on a hundred things in this video, but you mention allowing a 1st level MU to get a hireling. This is great advice. I would go so far as to make sure people get a chance to get hirelings up to their limit (if they can handle that many moving parts) within a few levels. If you allow your players to direct the hirelings, and you give them a few quirks, some interesting magic items, an odd ball ability, this essentially gives that PC who controls them power. But also because they may leave after any particular adventure where the Loyalty check happens to roll low, they could get killed (they are weaker than a PC) or they maybe back at base camp recovering, these aren't all the time resources. That last bit is a great way of handling an over abundance of Hirelings. Some can be keeping an eye on the mercenaries, or healing up, or even back in town being an agent of the PC. This allows them to kind of be two places at once. Hirelings can also fill that urge for the exotic. Yes they have to be weaker than the PC, but henchman that is a gnome, or a intelligent animal, or a minor monster can add bit of short term flavor to the game. So yes, certainly for Magic Users, but for everyone else too!
And to be more magical, maybe let the MU have access to weird and magical henchmen. At a steep cost maybe (a leprechaun wants that gold), but having access to the minor magics of a henchman is sort of like a rented magic item, and it would make sense that magic user would know better how to deal with them. Maybe combined with some spell research sort of thing.... Just riffing on the idea here. I haven't thought this out completely yet.
@@BanditsKeep That works out better actually. Maybe bring it on for the duration of the adventure. Maybe a thinking party may make a mini adventure on the way out to a dungeon or something to recruit (assuming we have a sandbox, self directed play situation, and they want to take the time to try their luck). Naturally this wouldn't work for every kind of game. But for the more gonzo play style I prefer I think it would work pretty well.
I like the idea of wizards being able to use prestidigitation any time. It's not supposed to be especially useful, just good for color in role-playing moments, like improving the taste of food and stuff. Also, Professor Dungeon Master on his channel mentioned that he lets spellcasters cast as much as they want, because they have to roll a d20, and a natural 1 has a wild magic effect of some kind. So his spellcasters are still quite judicious about their spell use. Otherwise, just give spellcasters more spells. In my game, you get several spells at first level but first level spells can't do damage, so wizards have to be problem-solvers and leave the fighting to fighters. I also like the idea of wizards speaking "Imperial" (Latin or whatever), and intelligent monsters speaking broken Imperial instead of a monster language. Clerics and Wizards should speak this special language that the fighters and rogues can't, and that's something that makes them useful. Druids' mystical language should allow them to send a message to any living creature (the sounds of nature) but not hold a conversation.
I love the idea of a hireling for the MU early. I think once the MU gets to a higher level (10+?) then they should attract a follower that will learn from the MU
Like a little wizard's apprentice or Igor that hangs around their tower? I think that could be handled with the normal henchman rules. A wizard havin a junior wizard for an apprentice is pretty cool. In some rules you get a small bonus for magical projects by having assistants and apprentices around. Invading a wizard tower and meeting a bunch of level 1d4 apprentices the dude had abused in different ways was pretty fun for us. Most of them weren't combative, they were just as confused as us about where the wizard had gone.
So much to ponder in this one, really worth going back over several times to be honest. Have you seen the Mage character class in OSE now? It has some really interesting abilities and a different take on an OSR style spell caster. I think it is from Carcass Crawler. Also Folk Magic of the Haven Isles by Monkeyblood has some interesting twists to add to MU's as kind of skins. Also I think Dolmenwood has various breeds of dogs parties can buy with some great varieties. I love the suggestions here, Wands, Hirelings, rituals. MU's are a bit of an empty class in a way, but really I think they highlight something about the early versions of the games. It was all basic and we were at liberty to tinker and expand on ideas. These kinds of ideas are great too, they dont break the game but they start to imply more about the setting as you go too. A MU with his librarian bodyguard, wielding a scroll case or an antique but otherwise normal sword. Suddenly you can start adding in setting rich details... Does the hireling have to be human, the sorcerer in Tower of the Elephant had a trained or ensorcelled ape thing in a red cape as his bodyguard... You dont always want to unbalance things or make everything too flashy too early but there is precedence in the literature all over the place, it just depends on the setting you're playing in to make it work I guess.
I work "cantrip" in as a 0-level spell using the same progression for other spell levels. (eg. 2 uses at 1st level, 3 at 2nd, 4 at 3rd... to a maximum of 5.) It helps to give the character more to do at low levels, but later on they're mostly a novelty.
One thing I did for my AD&D game was to give all players a d8 hd plus their class HD at first level and I gave everyone with a high enough constitution to have the fighter con bonus . It gave players a slight chance to survive but didn't make them over powered . I gave wizards the same spell bonus clerics got but based on intelligence instead , it gave magic users a few extra spells at low levels so they didn't seem useless in combat . I also allowed magic users to wear hide/fur armor only and use slings in addition to their normal selection of weapons allowed . I also removed level limits for all races and allowed some races to be classes they wernt normally allowed like allowing dwarves to be Paladins and halflings and gnomes to become druids and rangers . It didn't hurt play or really change things to much and my players like it . One player had a gnome druid named Rombold Evergreen who rode a Rottweiler as a mount and wore a wref of holly on his head . Another player had a female Halfling ranger named Hilda hollowbottom and she rode a goat . My players at that time ( 1987 ) had some really cool ideas for their characters and we all had fun playing ad&d
We add a 20 hp "kicker" for everyone at 1st level in our AD&D-derived OSR games. For B/X or OSE, everyone gets a d14 hp kicker. Incidentally, I did the latter for a recent DCC 0 level funnel for some of the characters and just the standard roll for others. Of the entire party the only survivors were the PCs with the kicker. 10 out of 16 died in that adventure....So having a few extra HP can really help early on. And if you roll fairly thereafter, by the upper levels the hp totals aren't too high, though magic-users will tend to be a bit tougher than usual. But since we also use criticals, it evens out.
Thank you for the informative video. This helped to bring the class into a better understanding for me. Up to now I'd been thinking of only spells, and not the extra's like scrolls and wands. As I look as the character sheet for a B/X character, there aren't the lines and lines of skills, feats, and talents. This video helped bring to light, like you said, that this is a smart intelligent character. And we are free as GM's and players to take the character beyond the simple character sheet. I like your suggestion too of allowing the character to substitute their intelligence checks for charisma to help influence a bluff or mystical looking charade. This makes perfect sense too. The hired henchman was good one too. Many good ideas I've now tucked away. For other videos. I really enjoyed your dungeon creation video. It was fun to follow along in my PDF copy and see how you developed that dungeon. It would be easy to say to do more of those, but I'm not sure what else could be added to it or improved to add on to it. It was a fun video to follow along with, and it was great to see how you thought it all out and came up with something fun. If you were planning on writing a scenario or another small dungeon for your gaming groups, then it would be nice to be along for that brainstorming session. Thank you for your videos. I know they're a lot of work, but they help keep the creativity and excitement going.
"If they don't have to earn it, it's less interesting." Great statement! I would add that if they don't earn it, then they'll not really care anyway and the gimmie is just a worthless gesture that holds no value. Can be the feeling of much of the modern 5E/PF2E systems in general to me. Thx for these and keep it up. I would love more Magic User input, because as one online DM put it to me recently, "I wouldn't recommend a single class magic user in our online [1E/Zero lvl-start] Greyhawk because they are just way too 'squishy'." It saddened me that basically I was subtley "warned" off of the character I wanted to play really.
@@BanditsKeep Yep. Kinda my feeling too. He's a great guy, with tons and tons of experience and knowledge and even has ran for the "big names" from the TSR old days, but I do feel a bit 'forced'. Yes, I may squish and die, or, I may have good support and make it.
I think a potential fix for B/X magic users is ritual casting from 5e. You can have in your spell book a number of first level spells equal to your int bonus eg read magic. These spells can be cast as a ritual from your spell book with a casting time of ten minutes. That way the MU has one daily spell and some ten minute tricks like dispel magic
@@BanditsKeep Esoteric Enterprises has ritual magic for over-level spells. The first thing the crew figured out was that they could use level 5 Animate Dead to have a single skele-bloke helper around. Magic is also more awkward in many ways, it's much harder to learn new magic. Every single time you transcribe a new spell from a weird book you found there's a chance for disaster. The second thing the crew learned about magic was that doing spells could burn their house down. But each wizard can learn any spell and ritually use it if they find the right book. And finding the right book is the hard part. Ritual magic in the undeworld takes a turn. You are not going to use that in combat. Normal rules for random encounters apply, you are standing there chanting for ten minutes in a weird bunker among cave bears. Using magic in the safety of the city above is more dangerous. Not because magic works differently, but because using magic attracts the state's attention. There is no spell to Dispel Cops.
It's very interesting to throw something at combate to high int PCs, like: "you look at the ceilling while your companions are fighting and see that if you hit the right place, it will collapse", something like that.
Inspired by your channel, I have decided to give BX a look (i started with BECMi). I was really surprised with the Rule that you cannot have more spells in your spellbook than you can memorize. Given the importance of Read Magic for scrolls and the such. OD&D allows for spell research so I am assuming they do not have restrained number of spells. BX rules as written is brutal on the MU.
I did a couple of things to make Magic Users more fun to play. Lore is a good one and involved a lot of intelligence checks, done behind the screen like every other check. First was the staff. I allowed that a Magic User could take a staff as a weapon. Then they could enchant it by spending on day to carve their personal runes onto the staff. Once the runes were carved, they could cast any spell from their memory into the staff. The spell would remain in the staff for 1 week per level of the spell. One week for Sleep, two weeks for Invisibility, etc. The Magic User could cast one spell per every 6 levels into their staff. So one from levels 1-6, two at levels 7-12, etc. A staff with stores spells in it could also be used by the Magic User only with bonuses in combat. Every spell cast into the staff gives the Magic User +1 to hit and damage when using it. Of course, once the spell was cast the bonuses would drop or be gone. This makes the staff more useful and more desirable. All Magic Users want a Staff of the Archmagi, but this will due for now and give opponents something to thing about. The next idea I stole from Dragonsfoot. The Wand of Wizardry. The Wand of Wizardry is constructed/gifted the the Magic User or his Master upon reaching First Level. It stores 1d6 charges that regenerate 1d4 at midnight or whenever. A bonus of 1/charge per level is added to stored charges and the charge regeneration. A Wand of Wizardry has the following abilities for 1 charge: Light and Magic Missle (one missile only). For 3 charges: the Magic Missle can be changed to an Elemental Missile projecting either a fire missile, an ice missile, a lightning missile or a rock/stone missile. The function is that it is useful in combat. For each charge expended, the Sand of Wizardry does d6+1 hp damage. All Missles require a successful to hit roll. And the Wand of Wizardry costs 100gp. This cost must be paid with the Magic Users starting money. Just a few ideas to make Magic Users more fun and interesting with more options.
Cool! I Like the idea of the staff being a magic weapon, adding additional spells per day to me anyways does not seem to be the “answer” but there are so many options and it really depends so much on the group.
@@BanditsKeep It only gives them one or two more spells. And it can be any spell so they can plan ahead or have a backup. Also, it supports the "Magic User has a staff" stereotype. "What hideous thing will he do to us now?" If he loses it, he will try to get it back as well. Like the Wand of Wizardry, it is just enough to get a Magic User started and not feel useless after he casts his one spell and throws all five of his daggers. I thought this was very important for the new players of the group so they feel like part of the party and not just the pack mule.
I think having spells alloted to items like wands/stalves/rods/rings/scrolls are in line with BX/ Vancian magic instead of relying on limited spell slots or ability to memorise having spells stored on multiple items on the person of the magic user is way more gonzo and exciting. Finding a scroll with spells above your caster level and casting it anyway despite the risk as the hail Mary is brilliant. That's why the thief had a chance to read scrolls is there scrolls need to be given as a low level treasure
We've always played like scrolls are easy to use. Your level does not matter when casting from a scroll, someone else who had a high enough level has already done the heavy lifting. You are just channeling what that bloke penned down. But if you find a cool level 3 scroll you have to decide if you want to pop it off now and have that fireball on level 1, even if just once. Or if you want to save and copy the scroll into your book. Each choice consumes the scroll.
Just came across this channel........then I thought cameras.....then I thought cool if you played guitar......behold in the background. Loved the photo stuff so I am sure this will be cool.
15:50 I like this comment - allow the magic user to know what is going on with magic.. That goes back to the purpose of having a magic user in the party! You need one to figure out what is going on in the dungeon or th adventure. It goes back to why there are 4 classes and why you probably need one of each in your group - each one has skills or knowledge or abilities to get you through different parts of the adventure. MAKE MAGIC-USERS MORE MAGICAL!
I had an idea for cantrips that any PC can cast a number of cantrips equal to some number per day (number being maybe Proficiency bonus in 5e, or character level, or equal to the number of spell slots), and any cantrip beyond that costs a level of exhaustion (5e) or cost them a hit point.
I was following along with John Wick's 30 characters from 30 games challenge a while back, so I made a magic user from OSE, which I heard plenty about, but haven't played. I agree the level one guy didn't feel particularly magical with his Read Magic, dagger, and bag of crap. I had enough random starting cash for a retainer though. I was pretty excited, because my worst witch became a team of adventure bastards starting on the painfully slow path toward power (or doom). If I can trick- I mean convince our 5e group into trying a B/X one shot I think adding a little extra magic (especially familiars) would help them like it more.
For sure, if you are coming from a game that has “at will” spellcasting etc., it can be a hard sell unless they’ve already shown boredom at that level of power.
I tend to like "skill-based" systems best, and this video gave me an idea for a new character archetype; a kind of sorcerer/charlatan. Firstly, the character IS a sorcerer and does real magic. But he also is skilled at a very specific kind of bluff. He makes liberal use of powders, simple chemical reactions, cold reading, and the like to simulate "magical" effects. This can be used as a grift, but I'm thinking it is more a way to awe and intimidate folk. And if he's ever called out, he can break out the real magic as needed. Better yet is to mix the real and the fake to keep observers guessing and off balance. As an example, in a fight the mage throws down a simple smoke bomb for concealment, casts a light spell on a sling stone, then fires it off with his sling (or just hucks it, whatever). It looks fancy and does several useful things; concealment, illumination, and a physical attack. Good stuff, Bandit. Thanks.
I think any character could pull that off. It's not a class feature, you as a player come up with a neat idea and put it into practice. You could have a hobbit hidden with a speaking cone in the smoke who waves a torch around and impersonates a demon rising from a portal on the floor. As a fun side note: Earthdawn wizards have the Arcane Muttering skill. The wizard mutters incomprehensible and ominous things that might or might not be a spell to people who hear it.
A familiar? You mean the demon that helps the witch-marked curse others, talk to the dead through the devil, and--Oooh! It's a Cat! I love it, love it, love it! *Everyone else* "Demon-dog of fire and hell!" Cue witch-burning music...
I'm working on a house rule system that allows wizards the cast unlimited spells, but they have to succeed at spellcraft checks for every cast. Failure makes them take damage, and destroys to spell component. They cannot cast that spell again until they acquire the component or focus again.
I always gave them 3-4 spells including read magic, write magic, and one offensive spell and/or one defensive spell. High INT casters may start with 4 spells. Writing spells into a spell book also requires special ink which costs the mage some money. But armor is expensive in my world so these requirements add balance as well as immersion, etc.
I like to let the MU use the wand as a "spell focus" allowing 1 spell per level to be cast like a sorcerer the same spell can't be cast twice in a day.
I really liked everything you said! I'm not sure though if there's a reason not to have the ability to read scrolls as an innate ability for a wizard /magic - user. I'm just getting back to old school stuff. Started with B/X 30'ish years ago but have been going through all the editions since. So I haven't yet figured it out for myself. I'm thinking of trying unlimited castings per day but with a spell casting roll for every spell and a critical failure chance. Also I'm thinking of giving them an attack cantrip of 1d6 + int damage. Heresy? Will it work?
That type of system can certainly work and I’m sure that some players and dungeon Masters will really love it. I would just say that a system like that presents a very magical world so if that is your intention it should be good. But if you’re trying to emulate sword and sorcery or low magic that’s definitely not going to work LOL in the end it just comes down to what you’re looking for at your table.
@@BanditsKeep Yes of course. This is exactly why I loved all the ideas you presented. Oh and before the above mentioned radical magic revamp I gave my wife's druid +1 1st level spell for high wisdom and also let her use those as slots for any level 1 druid spells so there's a chance to use those rarely useful spells as well. This is Old school essentials advanced btw.
An age-old statment with regards to early game magic users that I go by: You have weapon profficiencies for a reason. Slings are better than people give them credit for.
2e darts are more dangerouns than they look. You can toss out three of them per round. The only downside is short range, but a dart-fight on the streets would be pretty nasty. I think of them as oversized roman military darts, more than a pub dart and same or bigger than a lawn dart.
I have long loved and played 1E but always thought the magic user should have some type of spell, 1 or 2, which can be cast per round but not over-powered of course and increase in power as they level up. As far as scrolls as a DM a lot of the lower level encounters using RAW treasure rewards just do not provide a lot of scrolls to be found. I like your idea of a wand to store up spells.
Hi there, just discovered your channel recently but love the content! (See a comment I did on another video). Any chance you might share a pdf of these house rules? It would be much easier than transcribing from the video 😊 I will slowly work my way through all your videos 😄
IF you feel Magic-users need a boost, try free cantrips ( like lighting a candle, small stuff) familiars, a staff or wand( they can store a level 1 spell in), a bonus for Intelligence, ability to detect magic( even powerful casters), a free magic blast ( just equal to thrown dagger)some starting scrolls. One of those options could help, but i never found it necessary. I do give Read Magic as a free skill to MU.
That can all work depending on the table - but I personally would never give unlimited magic to a MU no matter how weak it might seem, IMO you are immediately setting up a high magic world when you do.
@@BanditsKeep players never abused it, so it depends. They used it for weird dramatic affects. Light candles, stay dry in rain while others got soaked, made their eyes glow or voice boom to intimidate, make a plant bloom, scare a guard dog. I tried several different things over the years, im an old gamer, and once had a solid core group that played regularly.
@@shockerck4465 sure, but if the 1st level MU can do that, so can any 1st level MU so unless you limit MU to PCs people all over the place are constantly casting spells (minor as they are) thus a high magic setting IMO - not that there is anything wrong with that, just not my thing
Everyone should be afraid of a magic user. If you ran into a stranger who could potentially be carrying a high-powered handgun, an incendiary grenade, a universal translator, a tranquilizer dart, a jet pack, and a mind-control device, how would you react to their presence?
Charles Dickens complained that it takes a half-hour to light a candle from a tinder box. Have your players attempt it on a cloudy, moonless night knowing that you might jump out and spray them with pepper spray at any moment to give them the feel of having a candle or torch go out in a dungeon.
MERP has extensive rules for this, because MERP/Rolemaster rolls that way. Depending on tools and situation it takes a number of rounds to light a torch or a camp fire. The game uses wonderfully low-brow spells like heating water. This matters when some healing herbs need to be prepared. You can't just slap a potion into a dude, all herbs have a specific way to use them. Some require brewing them into fresh tea. In Call of Cthulhu and other games set closer to our time, there are more alternatives accessible to the PCs. Players like to get an electric torch if they can. Later on in Delta Green, everyone has a modern flashlight and your feds run around with 90's cell phones. Matches appear relatively early. There is a number of historical matches of odd design you can use. Ones where a small glass pellet or phial with acid provides the ignition, ones where you strike them against any rough surface etc. Most of the time you transport a flame from one place to another with a wooden or cloth wick.
I do the same for elves, but I also allow then to choose from MU or the Cleric spell chart. However once chosen that is the only type of spells they can use.
My friends decided to smack clerics and MUs together into one class. There was no effective difference between the lists. There was no half-fighter, armoured spellcaster alternative like clerics at all. A priest is simply a bloke in a robe functonally similar to an MU. Spells have three optional categories, you can decide that all MUs follow one of these. An MU priest then becomes functionally a white wizard. Right now I like the Esoteric Enterprises priests. The difference isn't what spells you got but how you toss them. Clerics use magic by skill check. If the skill fails, your god comes calling to you instead. The gods are capricious, jealous twats who can grant you five spells in a row or demand that you dance and sing for them like a monkey as you attempt the first of the day. The DM rolls to see which spells the god chooses to grant, it's a system that constantly reinforce how dependent you are on your deity. Sometimes god calls and wants you to burn $1000 in PCP right frickin now.
Oddly I went with staves instead of wands, which is basically lifting from Fastasy Trip. I layer the knowledge of making (or "crafting") more sophisticated versions into the game so that say the enchanter's staff can hold extra spells of that type. I totally agree with the language thing, negotiation with monsters is like what's supposed to happen. "Benefit of the doubt" is the alternative to rolling dice. It can be difficult to get used to, but it pays off imo. Almost all monsters in old d&d don't use Vancian magic either with their 3/day innate abilities. Why not buff the MU with read/detect 3/day? Or the wand can do it? Idk
Power is power, PC or NPC will find a way to try to disprove your abilities. It's better to have spells and be powerful than have pretense. RP can work, in my experience DMs and players all find a reason to test your abilities.
I think that there is a very simple solution but requires deep rules changes- rolling for magic. A good example is warhammer 2ed. Magic is dangerous, it can mutate you, use with caution. I write my own rules set, there every spellcaster is rolling, clerics included, but also all non clerics, have wild magic, when wierd random things can happen.
@@BanditsKeep An important detail in WFRP is magic points. The more wizard careers you complete, the more you get. So you are both casting magic from mana and with a check.
I think there is some wisdom in having at-will "spells," because it makes magic users feel more magical, because otherwise they're just a guy in a bathrobe except for the few turns a day they do some bombastic thing that uses a spell slot. Here's the thing, since it's exclusively a flavor problem, it doesn't have to involve any mechanical changes. Just like your example of the guy with the 0gp cost flavor-only sack of potion bottles, party tricks, and "nonmagical magic things." Though frankly most of those flashes and puffs would be covered by the AD&D spell Cantrip, which later became the WotC spell Prestidigitation if one wanted a more mechanical solution. B/X rules cyclopedia say that Magic Users can throw rocks (and other such improvised weapons of approximately fist size). Rocks (or other such fist sized blunt objects) are basically always available on the ground unless the DM says otherswise. Tah dah, magic users now have an infinite use spell that they can use as often as they would attack, that does the same damage as throwing a rock, because mechanically it IS just throwing a rock, but in world actually it's, I don't know, zapping them with raw magic instead. Now it feels more properly wizardy.
@@BanditsKeeppg19 "Weapons: A magic-user may only use daggers as weapons. Optionally, at the DM's discretion, magic-users can use the staff, blowgun, flaming oil, holy water, net, thrown rock, sling, and whip." pg65 "Rock, Thrown: This is a rock of fist size or smaller. When a character throws any object that causes impact damage, treat it as if it were a thrown rock; the DM can reduce the damage done if he thinks it is not as punishing as a normal rock. Strength modifications apply to attack rolls and damage. If you are using the optional Weapon Mastery rules, all characters are considered to have Basic mastery level with thrown rocks." And obviously roughly fist-sized throwable objects aren't ALWAYS available, but they are basically any time the party has freedom of motion and access to their gear. If you're not in a featureless void or captured somehow, you can probably find a number of throwable objects in your immediate vicinity. And Gandalf sat there lighting pinecones in rainbow shades of fire and lobbing them at worgs until nearly dawn while the worgs waited for their goblin companions to come and chop the trees down. That's EXACTLY the kind of thing I'm arguing magic users should be able to do.
@@dragonboyjgh One article I read for dying magic in Tolkien was to give Gandalf a huge pool of starting spells. But each one used is gone for good. Magic will be gone from the world, they choose how to use the last of it. MERP copied the Rolemaster spells right off. We think Bilbo and LotR are two very different books. MERP is more closely inspired by Bilbo, where random wizards can come walking down the road and off you go on adventure with some dwarfs all of a sudden.
@@SusCalvin I adore that from a flavor-first perspective. I'm not sure if it works for a traditional D&D style of dungeon and hex crawling style of play, but I definitely want to use that in something. Thank you for sharing.
@@dragonboyjgh I don't think the author was very serious about PC wizards using this. They wanted to pick on on Tolkien's ideas of the waning glories of previous ages. Some games have wizards, but all of them are NPCs. In Pendragon you play manly knights in mail suits. Wizards and magic item exist around you and play active roles in adventures but you don't play them. There is a magic system but only the DM uses it. It makes wizards pay for magic with very long naps in the fey lands. It limits how often Merlin can make an appearance and personally set stuff straight.
Would you require your MU to pay for books they have to carry around so can get their knowledge, or do you just assume they researched enough before to know this or that? Also, what would be your restrictions regarding Charm Person, if any, other than what is clearly stated in the book? (Would a merchant give to the MU his goods for free or little money if charmed? Would a charmed captain command his garrison to follow the PC on his adventure? Would a (low level) king start a war for the PC? I feel this is such a great spell but since it has so little ruling, I am not sure how much to allow or not.) Thanks in advance for your insightful comments.
In BX I typically have them start with the books, but if they lose them they would have pay to replace. As far as charm person goes - the Merchant might give a discount but would not give it away for free. The Captain could maybe be convinced. But the crew would be very unlikely and will notice this strange behavior for sure. The king might with some convincing. All this really depends on what and how the PCs use the spell - mostly they would not go against their general nature
I did a similar thing with the elves. I also changed their stat requirements to DEX and CHA instead of STR and INT. Seems more elf. For magic users, I figure that since they use spell books and study magic, they should get Read Magic for free. The more I think of it the more I think it should be a free casting, like cantrips in Pathfinder or 5e. Here's another idea, how about making some arcane attack ability that's like a weaker magic missile that does 1d4 but can be cast without using slots? Lets the mage do something even when their spells are gone. I also think the B/X scroll times are crazy. How many months does it take to write a first level scroll?
If those things work for your table, go for them but unlimited magic is a big no-no for me. Also 1 week to write a scroll - a good DM is going to let that happen during down time so I don’t really see an issue there, more that they can’t do it till 9th level!
@@BanditsKeep I thought that it took much longer to make a scroll. I must be wrong. How often does Read Magic come up in your games besides reading scrolls?
@@99zxk 1 week per spell level so for a 1st level spell, one week. If I know a MU has read magic, I make sure it comes up - secret arcane writing to open doors or bypass traps etc. that being said. Scrolls should be a pretty major part of magical treasure and many a time a low level MU in my group has ended up with a few powerful spells via scroll.
Magic Missle as a BX class features for magic users rather than a spell: Drop any memorized spell slot to release a burst of raw arcane power floor d6+1 damage, no save.
@@BanditsKeep when I was a kid my DM allowed clerics to drop prepared spells for cure lite wounds. I thought that was slightly unbalanced but I liked the idea of the mechanic.
I think the sorcerer class was built on this. You still got spell slots, but they aren't pre-loaded. As a drawback you have less, or they aren't as powerful. It created a class with more intuitive magic that couldn't match the raw book-learning power of a good ol' wizard.
What if you did read magic as a class ability of 3 in 6 chance, with having some slight variation in success or failure depending on how obscure the arcane magic may be? A long forgotten text would be 1 in 6, a common ward might be 5 in 6? Also, what do you think about vancian with a twist. Prior to casting a spell you have a 1 in 6 chance of success of remembering it to cast again? Want to cast again? Roll 1 in 6. If you fail it’s lost like RAW.
@@BanditsKeep We tried that, with the addition of a cost of failiure. My friends made it a d20 save on about 13+ to 15+ to activate. On a 1 consequences happen. Each failiure raises it, 1-2 and then 1-3 etc. They laid out pretty mild consequences, your cleric is struck mute or blind the rest of the day or bears a donkey head for half a week. And no further spells that day. I think we were too nice. In Esoteric, priests roll a d6 against maybe 2-3 in their skill. Each and every failiure means a jealous, demanding god from the depths wants something from you. This can mean your level 1 priest starts uncontrollably manifesting spells as their body is consumed by an inner flame at worst. Most results are demands for supplication and sacrifice. God wants you to sing and dance like a monkey or cut yourself for a couple hp.
Bx d&d combat rules all weapons do 1d6, so really it doesn’t matter what the “weapon” is. They all do 1d6, unless you use the variant weapon damage rules. So clerics or magic users using a sword does not upset game balance
@@BanditsKeep you could always use a ruling that magic swords won’t have any bonuses for clerics or magic users because their magic and the swords magic negate each other
True. Though now you’ve added two house rules for what I believe is very little if any gain. That being said, BX is so easy and fun to mess with and this thread shows that!
I have come to the conclusion that everyone should be able to use a light crossbow. It does not make sense that a very intelligent person, such as a magic user, would not be able to use a simple mechanical weapon such as a light crossbow. In the Middle Ages, the Pope outlawed the use of crossbows because the nobles didn't like having the most simple-minded individual on a field of battle being able to kill them, from range, with only a few hours of training to learn how to use the weapon. In my opinion, it is a very minor rule change that doesn't really change the balance of the game. This is how I give that first level mage a chance to be useful in combat. Aside from that, you have some really cool points about playing up what even low level magic user's can convince others of what they can do. I can see how one can get away with all kinds of stuff with tactful use of minor illusions.
I’ve heard of people using the light crossbow as a generic weapon - while in get its easy to use (relatively) I don’t do this as it steps on the toes of niche protection
The church says a lot of things at the time. They want all the petty kingdoms to live in peace and harmony and stop raiding eachother for cattle like thugs.
The problem with magic-users has always been that the they grow in power exponentially whereas fighter classes grow linearly. So, the magic-user is horribly underpowered at first and then overpowered later.
You have to play your magic-user as a smart person, not just a spellcaster. So many see the spells and never think about the languages and high Intelligence and play them as idiots and that's why they die fast at low levels.
Sorry but if your players forget they have some special item then it’s the player’s fault. We all have forgotten some minor thing that we have and didn’t use but that doesn’t make it less valuable. Give them a card with the info on it so they can read it and remember or you just remind them.
I’ll have to disagree with using intelligence instead of charisma. I know this video was a while ago so who knows where your head is now. Charisma is an important stat that many people see as a ‘dump’ stat. You’re describing things that can avoid whole conflicts and is governed by charisma under the reaction roll and you suggest using intelligence instead. Then what is charisma for? It’s got two things. Loyalty and reaction. Loyalty for henchmen and hirelings and bonuses to reactions. I kinda like the idea of a charismatic magic user being more convincing. Full of themselves and kinda of a smary shister. But you could have a low level bad charisma try to bluff the kobolds. Actually fail the reaction roll not to cross the line but the kobolds are cowardly, so they still don’t cross the line just call the magic user out on being fake. Could lead to the some funny situations. I get the reason in general. You want to encourage the interesting play. But no one said you have to roll. Maybe this low charisma was just convincing. I dunno. I agree with what you said in spirit but I think the charisma stat is valuable but is under utilized as is and there should be a better reason to it’s toys.
I think this is really one of the “new school” vs. “old school” differences. Back in the late 70s, the game was influenced by Swords and Sorcery fiction, classics like LotR, and low budget movies. Magic in these fictions was relatively rare, and very powerful. Now days,video games, modern novels, and high budget fantasy movies influence expectations. I actually think it is boring that as a caster in 5E as an example, I can produce a magic effect every single round forever. Because of my old school lens, this just doesn’t feel right to me. It goes along with buying potions in a general store. WTF?! But this is consistent with the modern version of the game. I am more of a Moldvay guy than 1st Ed. AD&D, but one of the things in 1st Ed. I think speaks to some of your points. And this is true for thieves as well as a class. 1st level magic-users and Thieves are quite literally, by level title, Apprentices. A1st level Fighter is a Veteran. These are not the same levels of training in their respective professions. 1st level M-U and Thieves “suck” because they are apprentices in their craft. Being able to cast only one spell per day or having a 15% chance to perform a thief skill is about right for an apprentice. The Fighter equivalent would be a Squire, who would probably have 1d4 HP. But Fighters start as Veterans, not Squires. Way back in 1980 I ran a Lankhmar game using B/X and one of the things I did to represent how wizards are feared was I required a successful Saving Throw vs. paralysis before a character could go into melee combat with a known M-U character. Not only did this make them survive more, it produced this really cool Lankhmar-correct presentation of wizards because the players would carry alembics and braziers and all these props so that it was clear that they were a wizard. I also allowed them to wear leather armor. 100% agree! Scrolls, scrolls, scrolls! Here is what has always bothered me about magic items If I am a M-U, I am going to spend my time making scrolls, wands, rods, and daggers. Why would I make magic swords and armor that I cannot use? Sure, maybe they get paid, but 90% of the time, they are going to be making scrolls, wands, rods, and daggers. So scrolls should be one of the more common magic items that parties come across IMO. Nice video! I am loving these!
Full disclosure, I started playing AD&D in 1984 at 11 yo. and I typically played Magic-Users or Thieves almost exclusively. I also, ironically, really loved low levels rather than the more powerful high levels. It felt more interesting to have to either role-play/sneak rather than simply go into every encounter guns blazing and due to having a pretty great DM, we spent a lot less time in combat and typically were given more options for avoiding it. Another thing he encouraged to 'feel more magical' was to play out how I cast my spells, so instead of simply saying "I cast Tasha's Uncontrollable HIdeous Laughter", I would instead say, "As we face off against the orcs, I pull a feather, a paddle, and a small pastry from somewhere within my robes. I fling the pastry at the orcs and wave the feather at them even as I turn to flaunt my bottom and paddle myself while murmuring an incantation in the spidery language of magic." (this one actually did erupt in a chorus of laughter!). I think in the video game era, people tend to favor the rules heavy new editions with all of its combat driven actions and flanking etc, etc... and forget to roleplay. Early magic-users (and thieves) in 1E tended to shine more outside of combat. It's up to the DM to create situations that allow for every class's strengths to shine and that also makes the game more than just a combat simulator. I personally liked the idea of taking the Write spell to transcribe scroll spells to my spellbook, though the cost could be prohibitive. You might only be able to memorize and cast one spell a day, but having several to choose from helped make that less boring and meant you had think ahead.
The first thing I look up in rules to create magic items is the cost of magic. In time, cash, personal sacrifice (hp, xp, attributes etc), bondage etc. Non-magical materials, hireling assistants and lab tools are essentially cash put to use. I like magic item creation to have a weight to it. I'm also more generous with scrolls and potions and wands. Both in how often they are found to how they are made. In my friends game, these "consumables" are only an investment of cash and time. Any MU with cash will be able to have a few backup scrolls on them. In Call of Cthulhu from Chaosium it's relatively simple for any human to learn magic and even create some permanent magical items without even joining a cult. Some spells are doled out to favored servants directly by the gods but definitely not all. All permanent magic requires a permanent POWer attribute sacrifice. If your investigator knows the Elder Sign spell they can make their own, at a cost. It's something a retired investigator in an advisory role to the active ones can do to still help out with the good fight. Stormbringer has a fun one. All magical items are bound demons. Most or all of human magic consists of calling on demonic or elemental services. In effect it means all magic items are intelligent, from Stormbringer itself who can decide your mates are nice, juicy souls to a magic lamp who wants to be fed incense every day or it refuses to work.
@@dmadcat73 One of my friends asked around for which highest level people actually played at. I think most people in the local community went as far as level 3-4, with a few hitting level 6.
I'm with you on this. The thing is, i DMd for about 15 years back in the 80s and 90s. I only just realuzed that I'd missed a part of the DMG that covers acquisition of MU spells. It does give read magic and 3 other spells to new magic users as a gift from their teacher. The problem is that it's literally hidden in the middle of the DMG. It should be in the PHB if they wanted people to know about it.
Played my first OSE session yesterday. It was fun, but the players felt that they could not do much. This video made me think that B/X is not necesarrily as restricted as we experienced. The biggest difference between 5e and OSE is that the game challenges the players more than the character sheet.
For sure, I would encourage them to try “stuff” if a player says their character can’t do cool stuff, ask them what it is they want to do and figure a way (a chance) that it could happen - within reason of course 😂
"Did I cast 3 spells or was it 4? Well in all this excitement I clean forgot, but given this is bat guano, and it'll make a fireball that'll fry your head clean off, you'd better ask yourself - do I feel lucky?"
These are great suggestions. So many good ideas. I have to admit, when we started playing the basic set we played rules as written and didn't venture to far from the book. We were either not experienced enough to broaden the definitions, or just didn't mind the rules as they were at the time. Hearing your ideas certainly opens the gates for my interpretation of BX, which was always very restrictive in nature. I stand corrected...enlightened. I think Cantrips can be expanded more so as not to abandon them. I know I am venturing into the non-BX realm, but in the AD&D Unearthed Arcana the Cantrip spell was a 1st level spell, that when cast gave the caster 10 minor effects for the day; for instance, take the 5e cantrip Prestidigitation and all the effects it can cause, each of these effects would count as one minor effect under the UA cantrip spell. Adopting this to a BX M-U would be useful to the one-and-done, first level M-U, and dig into the player's creativity. Say the M-U could cast a cantrip effect that summons a swarm of fluttering butterflies in the area. If the M-U is clever this effect could be used to obscure, confuse or otherwise delay an attack upon his / her person; such as, the M-U casts the swarm of butterflies between him and an orc. The resulting confusion would open an opportunity for the M-U to run away. Your idea for starting spells is awesome! I think man people make the mistake of taking Magic Missile over the very powerful Sleep or Charm Person spells...such is their folly. Also, the Find Familiar spell as you described it should also be a no-brainer. On a side note, I like the restriction on elves not having the extra starting spells / spell book option. I agree, their spells should be more innate to taught by tradition / word of mouth. They have long memories, spell books are probably unnecessary. In my opinions, elven magic should be more enchantment / druidic based anyway. I love the hireling idea! It makes so much sense and doesn't break the game. Hirelings are highly under rated.
This single video alone is so full of fantastic tips that I'm going to have to rewatch it with a laptop next to my phone to write them all done. Thank you!
I play 2nd Ed, but I always found the Beyond the Wall Mage class to be closer to what I always thought a mage should be. I bridged the two systems by making Detect Magic, Read Magic, and Cantrip(as per the little wish article from dragon magazine) function as Cantrips from beyond the wall(you can cast as often as you like, as long as you can make an Int Check. If you fail, the player gets to choose if he lets the DM generate a mishap or the character is incapable of using magic the rest of the day, and all his currently active spells suddenly end). I leave the clerical versions of the spells alone, priests are pretty OP at low levels as is.
Agreed - I played in a playtest at the last in person GARYCON and was not overly impressed, BUT that was a super early draft, so I have high hopes changes have been made! Can’t wait to get the final version and see how they made it work!
The non-magical special effects idea opens up so-o-o many possibilities! My head is spinning right now as partially-formed thoughts dance and crowd together, inspiring new & different ones faster than i can write them down. About scrolls; back in the AD&D '80s my group had fun basically "re-skinning" them into other one-use items. Like little envelopes of powders blown from the palm, or fragile ceramic trinkets to shatter or crush, as long as it was "consumed" by the casting. We never thought of smoke bombs, though
One of the things that magic users have going for them is that any time another magic user is killed, they most likely will have a spell book. If the mage chooses, he can copy spells into his spell book. Other spells can be cast as scrolls. So a mage with several spell books will have many extra spells he can cast. He could only carry so many as they weigh quite a bit but having 2 or 3 would give him quite a bit of power.
@@BanditsKeep Not a house rule. It's basic D&D. Magic users have a spell book which they use to record their spells. Each day they pick the spells they want to memorize. You can use scrolls or spell books and copy spells that you do not have into your own book. When you do this, the scroll is consumed or if a book, it erases the spell from the book. The mage would need certain things in order to do this such as special inks, diamond dust or whatever. Usually it would just cost the mage $xxx amount and you would of course have to have a town with these supplies on hand.
@@CaptCook999 Not in the basic I use, is that BECMI? please refer me to the book and page # I'd love ti read it, casting from books is not a thing I've ever seen - but cool idea!
@@CaptCook999 I know AD&D 2e had the concept of information density in your book. Your book has X pages, and each spell level uses dY pages or so. Wizards at higher level typically know more spells than they can fit in one book. They have a set of master books at home in the tower and copy them into a "field manual" for no cost but time and the cash to buy blank books. Sometimes they replace books or give their old ones as hand-me-downs to promising students. I know the precursor to Dragonbane had a sort of book-wizards in Chronopia. They described them as dudes who had spells pre-loaded as book pages, who could snap open a book and release a volley of them. You didn't play these dudes yourself, they were a pretty nasty encounter in town.
Here's what I do in my AD&D 1e/2e hybrid game: 1. Every Wizard has Cantrip as an at will ability. 2. Signature Spell NWP that allows one spell to be always memorized and is cast at +2 level efficacy. So in effect you get an extra spell slot. 3. Allow bonus spells for high INT similar to what the Cleric gets for high WIS. A 1st level Wizard can have 4 memorized spells with these three changes and they are a more formidable party member. The rest including brain power and thinking is up to the player.
The wizard kicks the door in and pulls two wands from under his robes and starts blasting.
His 6 charges each run dry and he pulls a quarter staff from his back and starts yeeting fireballs.
That runs out, and he bravely bravely runs away because the fireballs should have killed that thing.
Ha ha, yeah! If the fireballs don’t kill it, running might be the best option.
The wizard kicks the door and sprains his ankle because he put a 5 in strength. So he hobbles back, blows it to ash with a fireball, and pretends it was his plan all along.
@@BanditsKeep Our little group has gone to a magic system where a mage can cast every round as long as he has the spell committed to memory. PDM on dungeon craft posed a really interesting question: if a fighter can swing a sword every round, why can't a mage cast a spell every round? That's their core ability--casting spells after all.
But the system he uses requires a roll of a D20 every time you cast, and it has a chance for spell failure and even critical failure. We are experimenting with a modified version of this system. It's really interesting because you then have mages who can cast spells every round, but the question becomes is this really necessary to use magic? If my spell caster fail, the spell fizzles and he takes a little bit of damage (1 hp per spell level), and if he critically fails the spell could just fizzle with ghostly laughter filling the room (mages suffers 2 hp per spell level), it could backfire on the mage or hit a party member instead of the target, or worst case the mage could explode or melt like a wax dummy, or grow 20+D20 snakes out of his body that will devour him on the spot. The chances of that happening are pretty remote, but it's still possible. So now spell casters in our game are always asking themselves is casting this spell right now really worth the risk? We have a similar, but different system for clerics and druids, though this has more to do with their relationship with the divine.
Part of the problem for us is that as written, magic acts just like a type of tech. When you cast a spell it works just like it says in the book. And ultimately, that reliability drains the wonder and mystery and terror out of magic use. These are powers that essentially allow a mortal to defy the laws of the universe, so introducing a way that can spin out of control... We are still very much in an experimental phase with it. If it overpowers mages too much we significantly tweak it, or scrap it if it proves truly unworkable. So far, however, it's been really interesting.
“Nobody knows what level you are” is such good advice.
Thanks
In a campaign I once bluffed a party (5-8 level) into believing a 4th level magic user was an awesome power that they should fear, or at least respect enough not to attack. I figured they'd call his bluff then he would hit the ground begging for his life and (the reason he was there to begin with) offer lots of useful information about his former employer that they were hunting for. Instead he became a long term arch nemesis that they blamed whenever something went wrong.
@@christopherconard2831 That's adventure gold when that kind of thing happens.
That's good advice in life, too. Especially the first day on a new job. None of the customers know or care that you're new.
I was looking at the Staff of Wizardry once and thought "How fun would it be to have an NPC wizard with one, but it was nearly out of charges?" Everyone would be scared of him and the item, but he couldn't use up charges casually. He had to conserve.
You should have your rules as a pdf, im sure followers of the channel would love to see them.
This is a good idea - I need to organize a drive for this stuff, thanks!
@@BanditsKeep Just watching the video today, would love to see a PDF on this, especially the wand of storage.
I'm a little late to the party, but felt compelled to add my 2 cents anyway. Playing up the "they don't know what you can't do" schtick, I immediately got the image in my head of a quiet, reserved wizard who wears drab clothing but the lining of his cloak has a bold dazzle pattern on it. He steps forward, flings open the cloak and starts with his grand soliloquy in deep booming voice, tossing out some flash powder/colored sand/smoke bombs. Then, of course, runs like hell behind the fighter... 'Cause he's intelligent that way.
😂 yes!
I really like the idea of a low-level magic user accumulating mundane items that produce magic-like effects as a way that they would have used their intelligence and years of study to prepare for going on an adventure.
Yes!
Numenera starts people off with small magical trinkets. A few more if you are a certain class, I think. Being Numenera, they are more like... Tech-trinkets maybe.
You could add them to the equipment list as cheap and technically non-magical alchemical and mechanical tools. I probably wouldn't hand MUs a monopoly on them. Some fighter is just as likely to have weird magical glow-sticks concocted of bioluminiscent shrooms as anyone else.
In my campaign, I give magic users additional innate powers as they progress in level. The reason is that over time, the mystical forces that a wizard channels through his body cause certain changes to occur within them. Some of the changes are:
1. Beginning at 1st level, a wizard's natural aging process slows by 5%. It slows by an additional 5% for every level the wizard advances (ex. 10% at 2nd, 15% at 3rd, etc).
2. At every other level (ex. 2, 4, 6, etc) a wizard's natural armor class is improved by one.
3. At 4th level, a wizard can automatically detect magic within a 5' radius. This increases by 5' for every other level he advances (ex. 10' at 6th, 15' at 8, etc).
4. Beginning at 10th level, a wizard can only be harmed by +1 or better magical weapons. This increases to +2 weapons at 15th level, and +3 weapons at 20th level.
These are just ideas. You may have others in mind.
I like that! I was toying with the idea of the increased AC as well, but was thinking they'd only have it while they are "holding" spells, creating another decision point of whether or not to cast.
@@BanditsKeep Love this. Stealing this idea.
Love these, stealing them!
Conan 2d20 really leans into flash bombs, smoke, etc. Really like that idea.
Cool, I only tried that system once, was fun
Hey daniel - we met at Gencon last year - i was the Air Force guy that introduced myself in your breakout session and was a little giddy - keep up the great work w/this channel - you offer great insight & we share a background with the older versions of dnd so I thoroughly appreciate how you flex and modify that older framework -- sincerely, Patrick
Thanks Patrick!
Your entire channel is great, this video in particular. I'm definitely "borrowing" your familiar and wand options for my OSE campaign. Thanks for sharing your ideas!
Thank you! Awesome, let me know how they work for you.
That familiar idea about the mage being blind/deaf while seeing through their familiar's eyes is gold!
Thanks
Reminds me of Shakäste
Some of my home brews for Basic Fantasy:
(1) Elves know one Magic-User spell, regardless of their class. So they can be a Fighter with Sleep, and really wreck that goblin band.
(2) As a Magic-User, you add your Intelligence modifier to the amount of First Level spells you can cast. So a M-U with 18 INT can cast 4 first level spells per day, when they start as a 1st level PC. At 5th level, their spells per day looks like 5/2/1, because higher level spells should be more rare than a 1st level spell. Also add your INT modifier to the languages you know, beyond Common (and Elvish, if you're an Elf).
(3) Dwarves can be Magic-Users, because they can make magical arms and armor.
One of the "rewatch this" videos from Bandit's Keep. So much useful information.
I have been struggling with a similar issue with Wizard spells, and settled on the idea that the Wizard is able to create his own scrolls. I want to keep it under control though, so scrolls are not free or unlimited. It breaks down as follows. 1) you are limited to the number of scrolls = to the 2x the number of spells you can cast in a day. 3) it takes time to make scrolls. 1xspell level hours per scroll) 3) you need to "Cast" the spell in to the scroll. Thus making scrolls kinda of like a magic battery. 4) Making scrolls takes time and $$. 100g per 1st level scroll, 200g second level, 400g third level etc. 5) scrolls are a bit bulky, and susciptable to the elements. Water, fire, acid etc. 6) there is a chance the scroll you pull from your "scroll quiver", sack, Henchman, etc. was not the one you were looking for (I am still trying to decide on a fair but fun way to do this...I envision the whole Rocky and Bullwinkle, "hey Rocky! watch me pull a rabbit outta my hat!" sort of situation). I am looking to do a similar thing with clerics as well, only they can requisition potions from the local Church. It is limited by $$ (donations) and Standing within the chruch (level). This allows the party to do things like get access to a healing potion for example.
Nice
Similar to nobody knows what level you are, nobody has to know what class you are. Going back to the early 80's when I started with the First Edition, I wasn't a big fan of the classic "robes and pointy hat" look. I once put my highest score, 17, into strength. With an intelligence of 12. He wore a poncho and vest with lots of small pockets inside. Was he going to be one of those wizards that went on to reshape the fabric of the universe? Nope. But he could make a good living as a professional adventurer.
I played him like a person who got into college with an athletic scholarship as an offensive lineman. He wasn't going to be valedictorian, but he was smart enough to graduate.
Nice! Sounds fun
The best way to play a magic-user is to turn yourself into a chicken and have the party carry you around in a sack for the first ten levels. You just have to homebrew in a first level turn-to-chicken spell.
Could be useful as a means for rations
I'm sure you know the variation described by Dungeon Craft and others: roll for spell success, with some chance for crit failure. I feel like it still keeps the Vancian flavor if you're only able to do this on memorized spells AND if the crit failure is something that truly hurts and/or has a high enough chance to happen. You can further up the risk by increasing the chance of crit failure by +1 for each successive cast that day (DCC style, I believe). So first cast of Sleep only succeeds on 1d20 roll and it affects the party on a roll of 1 (quite possibly a TPK scenario). A second cast of Sleep again succeeds on 1d20 (maybe -1 penalty on this roll) with a crit failure on 1 or 2. This retains the Vancian feel since you can't cast a spell you didn't memorize for that day.. But instead of a spell disappearing completely from memory upon the first cast, it becomes more hazy to the wizard. Each successive attempt causes the memory to become more unclear and prone to corruption.
That’s not Vancian - though it is a fun way to run magic, I’ve been running DCC for a few years and I do love the wildness of that type of magic - Vancian magic is about resource management, not risk.
I like the wand/ familiar idea. That's really useful. One thing I do like from 5E is to allow the M-U/ cleric to cast any spell they know. I see you're playing AS&SH, that system gives casters bonus spells based on their ability score which is great. Clerics have a great number of utility spells, but in general you never see them come out due to the need to memorize healing. Letting them pray for a number of spell equal to their wisdom bonus plus their level, and then use their slots at they see fit really adds flexibility.
Also, I need that shirt!
Ah yes, spontaneous casting is a very cool way to get those utility spells out, though I tend to be a hard line Vancian guy 😊
@@BanditsKeep I'm wrapping up my second 3 year 5E campaign, and we've all agreed to move to AS&SH for campaign 3. :)
Very cool, I think ASSH is one of my favorite systems I’ve ever run. Great mix of character types and a killer setting.
Using slight of hand against lower intelligence creatures/enemies is a great idea. With a bit of alchemy during downtime to create intimidating or awe inspiring (or blinding) effects would really help. I never thought about a hireling though, great idea. My next MU is going to be a mix of Stephen Fry and Penn & Teller at this point.
Awesome
Some excellent stuff - hidden levels & the deceptive little tricks (loved the kobolds vs a line of chalk example) are especially good pieces of advice regardless of the system being used
Thanks 😊
Thanks for another great video. Another point to make is that the game was designed by guys who assumed there would be 6 to 10 people playing, so there would be multiple M-Us and plenty of tanks to hide behind. Like they didn't realize that not everyone had clusters of war gamers to draw players in from and most normal people's groups settled out at 3 or 4 players and a DM.
True
My last gaming shop fifth teen years ago, ran some Harry Potter like games, which due to the nature of people in their mid to late twenties and to their fifties, due to Rated:R for language and content we went from junior high school to junior college young adults.
3.5e rule Item Creation feat: Craft Wondrous Item, DMG: Creating Magic Traps replace all other forms of creation feats of Scribe Scrolls, Brew Potion, Craft Wands, and Enchant Arms & Armor.
Average start level of WotC:Star Wars rpg was 4th -level. For our games it was 6th-level multi-class PC with two levels of Xp/wizard worth of magic items. So a 6th-level spell caster was regarded as CR:8 due to equipment.
Instead of paying GP for items it was paid in with gp=Xp value, and sold as Gp for xp value, which level cap magic users. 2nd-level spell at 3rd-level spell caster ability cost 1,500gp/xp. Which is a month of slinging a stone to kill a chicken/rabbit/rat/raven for dinner each day.
Upgrades, a sorcerer/wizard wand has the 2nd-level spells such as Enchant Magic Weapon/Armor and Mend to keep their wand from being accidently broken and can fire off Magic Missile or Acid Bolt like a pistol with an unlimited magazine of Ammo. Other wise wands for sale or weapons with special magic charges only have a magazine up to nine spells.
Stander magic user N/PC, .. Rogue2/figther1/wizard3, CR:6
From all the dumb things my parents did and what my generation did, we all will be classified as 2nd-level rogues with Evasion from the number of times of avoiding setting ourselves on fire.
From WotC:d20 D&D3.5e Star Wars soldier class compare to the optional rules of 3.5e DMG in skill/feat training to real life military training. We by pass Xp for killing or social reactions to just Training Time to learn Skills/Feats. Which equal to 1d3 class levels per year. So on and so such. Then is no zero -level npcs.
After 5 years of clearing out your garden, farm fields, barn of rats, ravens, large to giant insects and other such vermin, ...
AD&D2ndE, Fighter/wizard2nd-level then militia training. Rogues would be around 3rd to 4th-level.
3rdE DMG npc Commoner class would be around the age of 20yo will be a 7th-level single class Commoner. Or a druid .. sorcerer casting Plant Growth to increase the harvest thinking it was just hard work and not magic. Trained militia man veteran of a few battles that can Flank in groups, Commoner2/rogue3/warrior2, CR:5
2.) Magic Effects in Campaign.
Spell: Good Berry, .. after casting it just means the PC find enough food without Survival/Wilderness checks to feed themselves for a day.
Spell, Create Food & Water, .. find a pack mule with water skins, you can cook the mule. Be grateful you are not stuck in a rain storm drinking muddy water and eating worms.
Spell: Cure Light Wounds or Critical Wounds, a second wind of vitality/Star Wars concept of Hp, Wound points = your constitution score for flesh & bone dmg, along with dealing with concussion and sprang ankle dmg. Other wise Cure Critical Wounds just grants the PC extra bed rest in recovering HP, wounds will not heal like the Marvel comic character Wolverine.
Low cost in creating magic items from cheap looking mundane everyday items, so magic is everywhere without flashy effects and ramped superstitions.
Fire ball is a grenade, Lightning Bolt is in your face Magic !
Spell: Shield, .. gives the receiver a dodge or parry bonus to avoid attacks, there is no invisible or visible shield of magic force energy seen protecting the PC.
Spells: regarding PC speed or ability enchantment are just regarded as athletic adrenaline boosted effects. Back in the early days of 3rdE my first game shop ran a He-Man campaign, if Teela is the Sorceress daughter what magic could she employ as a Sorcerer and not a wizard that would come off as Athletic abilities ?
🙌🏻
Some great advice here for making the magic-user count for more. I kind of dig the wand and the hireling ideas. They seem simple and low-potency enough but give the magic-user some extra functionality.
Thanks!
@@BanditsKeep do you have these rules and other stuff you do posted anywhere?
Would love to see another "build an adventure" video!
I prefer magic users in the classic mold of seeker/keeper of knowledge rather than the munchkin-land version of mobile artillery lol. If the players "get it" it creates a great opportunity for role play.
For sure
That would add an interesting layer for the game master as well. interweaving the quest for knowledge of specific spells that apply to the unfolding adventure. Maybe searching for some specific spell to combat demons being summoned to this plane or an evil necromancer and only your magic user can find the spell that can counter this and prevent disaster. That has some great possibilities and I think you're on to something with this idea.
Great video. Good advice. Love the use of chalk to scare the kobolds.
I give the 1st level magic user a wand with two or three charges.
Detect magic and read magic are magical abilities they require a successful skill check during an adventure. Roll d20 below INT, and the defect magic is successful.
Nice
Hey dude, just discovered your channel. Putting the master in dungeon master. Loving the BX content, having never read or played it I have always looked down my nose at it for being basic - so thanks for that.
Seeing the hex crawl generation was inspiring - while I dont necessarily think I'll run BX, will have to use a lot of those systems to run Adventures in Middle Earth!
Cant wait to see all your content.
Thanks! Very cool. I’ve heard good things about Adventures in Middle Earth. So many great systems out there and the concepts we use for one can usually be ported to others.
Good video! I’m fascinated by your idea for wands, and the idea of magic-users starting out with a henchman makes a lot of sense.
Thank You!
In my campaign, I'm having MU's needing magical staves(commonly shaped like a ？? Shape but other shapes are possible) that are created by 9th level MU's, they have magically charged "ioun" stones that power up their spellcasting. But without the basic staff, victims get a +1 to their saving throws against the staff-less MU. MU's get one staff for free at character creation, but replacements are costly.
Nice
This was really good, like the wand idea. I think a select number of cantrip would be useful say 3 one combative 1-2 dam, defence 1 ac bonus and an affect trip, or daze.
Could be interesting, of course now you have a MU With unlimited range attacks
What about limiting the number of castings to 6 per day? They could cast the same cantrip 6 times or the 3 twice day.
Dragonbane always had a small minor magic category, and kept them around in the new english edition. As a rule, none of them are attack spells. A wizard who wants to attack a fool but has no mana grabs the biggest bow (or sling, or throwing dagger) their puny wizard arms can hold and trains in how to use it. The minor magic spells are small and situational. A spell to shake dirt off your clothes, make the temperature in a room or tent comfortable, levitate a small coin, light a camp fire in even bad weather etc. They are not completely useless but not as useful as a real spell that can heal wounds, set a fool on fire or freeze a river.
@@BanditsKeep I haven't used cantrips at all, except in Dragonbane. What kind of effects would make for a good cantrip?
@@Sageofthedustypage I am not a huge fan of cantrips myself. I like to give wizards the same basic chance to use skills and weapons as a level 0 mercenary. So your MU can stab with a spear or shoot a kalashnikov like a basic goon.
i love your ideas on wands and familiars
Thank You!
These are all good ideas.
I allowed a MU to hire a psionic npc who had invisibility as his only discipline. In combat he would attack from a flank or other "surprise" location. The player explained that there were two of him due to a magical mishap and his alternate self was a fighter.
I use your MU as sage, with stage magic, stink bombs, and even powerful allergens to keep all the normals guessing.
I could, and may in the future, comment on a hundred things in this video, but you mention allowing a 1st level MU to get a hireling. This is great advice. I would go so far as to make sure people get a chance to get hirelings up to their limit (if they can handle that many moving parts) within a few levels. If you allow your players to direct the hirelings, and you give them a few quirks, some interesting magic items, an odd ball ability, this essentially gives that PC who controls them power. But also because they may leave after any particular adventure where the Loyalty check happens to roll low, they could get killed (they are weaker than a PC) or they maybe back at base camp recovering, these aren't all the time resources.
That last bit is a great way of handling an over abundance of Hirelings. Some can be keeping an eye on the mercenaries, or healing up, or even back in town being an agent of the PC. This allows them to kind of be two places at once.
Hirelings can also fill that urge for the exotic. Yes they have to be weaker than the PC, but henchman that is a gnome, or a intelligent animal, or a minor monster can add bit of short term flavor to the game.
So yes, certainly for Magic Users, but for everyone else too!
And to be more magical, maybe let the MU have access to weird and magical henchmen. At a steep cost maybe (a leprechaun wants that gold), but having access to the minor magics of a henchman is sort of like a rented magic item, and it would make sense that magic user would know better how to deal with them. Maybe combined with some spell research sort of thing.... Just riffing on the idea here. I haven't thought this out completely yet.
For sure
Interesting for sure - I think I’d allow that if they met the magical being during an adventure - at least for a while
@@BanditsKeep That works out better actually. Maybe bring it on for the duration of the adventure. Maybe a thinking party may make a mini adventure on the way out to a dungeon or something to recruit (assuming we have a sandbox, self directed play situation, and they want to take the time to try their luck).
Naturally this wouldn't work for every kind of game. But for the more gonzo play style I prefer I think it would work pretty well.
I like the idea of wizards being able to use prestidigitation any time. It's not supposed to be especially useful, just good for color in role-playing moments, like improving the taste of food and stuff. Also, Professor Dungeon Master on his channel mentioned that he lets spellcasters cast as much as they want, because they have to roll a d20, and a natural 1 has a wild magic effect of some kind. So his spellcasters are still quite judicious about their spell use. Otherwise, just give spellcasters more spells. In my game, you get several spells at first level but first level spells can't do damage, so wizards have to be problem-solvers and leave the fighting to fighters.
I also like the idea of wizards speaking "Imperial" (Latin or whatever), and intelligent monsters speaking broken Imperial instead of a monster language. Clerics and Wizards should speak this special language that the fighters and rogues can't, and that's something that makes them useful. Druids' mystical language should allow them to send a message to any living creature (the sounds of nature) but not hold a conversation.
Not sure “ more magic “ is the answer, but if it works for your table, that’s awesome.
I love the idea of a hireling for the MU early. I think once the MU gets to a higher level (10+?) then they should attract a follower that will learn from the MU
For sure
Like a little wizard's apprentice or Igor that hangs around their tower? I think that could be handled with the normal henchman rules. A wizard havin a junior wizard for an apprentice is pretty cool. In some rules you get a small bonus for magical projects by having assistants and apprentices around.
Invading a wizard tower and meeting a bunch of level 1d4 apprentices the dude had abused in different ways was pretty fun for us. Most of them weren't combative, they were just as confused as us about where the wizard had gone.
So much to ponder in this one, really worth going back over several times to be honest.
Have you seen the Mage character class in OSE now? It has some really interesting abilities and a different take on an OSR style spell caster. I think it is from Carcass Crawler. Also Folk Magic of the Haven Isles by Monkeyblood has some interesting twists to add to MU's as kind of skins. Also I think Dolmenwood has various breeds of dogs parties can buy with some great varieties.
I love the suggestions here, Wands, Hirelings, rituals. MU's are a bit of an empty class in a way, but really I think they highlight something about the early versions of the games. It was all basic and we were at liberty to tinker and expand on ideas. These kinds of ideas are great too, they dont break the game but they start to imply more about the setting as you go too. A MU with his librarian bodyguard, wielding a scroll case or an antique but otherwise normal sword. Suddenly you can start adding in setting rich details... Does the hireling have to be human, the sorcerer in Tower of the Elephant had a trained or ensorcelled ape thing in a red cape as his bodyguard... You dont always want to unbalance things or make everything too flashy too early but there is precedence in the literature all over the place, it just depends on the setting you're playing in to make it work I guess.
For sure - charm person on an intelligent ape would be a great move!
I work "cantrip" in as a 0-level spell using the same progression for other spell levels. (eg. 2 uses at 1st level, 3 at 2nd, 4 at 3rd... to a maximum of 5.) It helps to give the character more to do at low levels, but later on they're mostly a novelty.
Cool
One thing I did for my AD&D game was to give all players a d8 hd plus their class HD at first level and I gave everyone with a high enough constitution to have the fighter con bonus . It gave players a slight chance to survive but didn't make them over powered .
I gave wizards the same spell bonus clerics got but based on intelligence instead , it gave magic users a few extra spells at low levels so they didn't seem useless in combat .
I also allowed magic users to wear hide/fur armor only and use slings in addition to their normal selection of weapons allowed .
I also removed level limits for all races and allowed some races to be classes they wernt normally allowed like allowing dwarves to be Paladins and halflings and gnomes to become druids and rangers .
It didn't hurt play or really change things to much and my players like it .
One player had a gnome druid named Rombold Evergreen who rode a Rottweiler as a mount and wore a wref of holly on his head .
Another player had a female Halfling ranger named Hilda hollowbottom and she rode a goat .
My players at that time ( 1987 ) had some really cool ideas for their characters and we all had fun playing ad&d
Sounds like an awesome group and games!
We add a 20 hp "kicker" for everyone at 1st level in our AD&D-derived OSR games. For B/X or OSE, everyone gets a d14 hp kicker. Incidentally, I did the latter for a recent DCC 0 level funnel for some of the characters and just the standard roll for others. Of the entire party the only survivors were the PCs with the kicker. 10 out of 16 died in that adventure....So having a few extra HP can really help early on. And if you roll fairly thereafter, by the upper levels the hp totals aren't too high, though magic-users will tend to be a bit tougher than usual. But since we also use criticals, it evens out.
Thank you for the informative video.
This helped to bring the class into a better understanding for me.
Up to now I'd been thinking of only spells, and not the extra's like scrolls and wands. As I look as the character sheet for a B/X character, there aren't the lines and lines of skills, feats, and talents. This video helped bring to light, like you said, that this is a smart intelligent character. And we are free as GM's and players to take the character beyond the simple character sheet.
I like your suggestion too of allowing the character to substitute their intelligence checks for charisma to help influence a bluff or mystical looking charade. This makes perfect sense too. The hired henchman was good one too.
Many good ideas I've now tucked away.
For other videos. I really enjoyed your dungeon creation video. It was fun to follow along in my PDF copy and see how you developed that dungeon. It would be easy to say to do more of those, but I'm not sure what else could be added to it or improved to add on to it. It was a fun video to follow along with, and it was great to see how you thought it all out and came up with something fun. If you were planning on writing a scenario or another small dungeon for your gaming groups, then it would be nice to be along for that brainstorming session.
Thank you for your videos. I know they're a lot of work, but they help keep the creativity and excitement going.
Thanks so much for your kind words, I do enjoy making dungeons so if it seems interesting to people I will likely do another version.
"If they don't have to earn it, it's less interesting." Great statement! I would add that if they don't earn it, then they'll not really care anyway and the gimmie is just a worthless gesture that holds no value. Can be the feeling of much of the modern 5E/PF2E systems in general to me. Thx for these and keep it up. I would love more Magic User input, because as one online DM put it to me recently, "I wouldn't recommend a single class magic user in our online [1E/Zero lvl-start] Greyhawk because they are just way too 'squishy'." It saddened me that basically I was subtley "warned" off of the character I wanted to play really.
I think the challenge there is that if the dungeon master is not willing to work with you on making your MU awesome.
@@BanditsKeep Yep. Kinda my feeling too. He's a great guy, with tons and tons of experience and knowledge and even has ran for the "big names" from the TSR old days, but I do feel a bit 'forced'. Yes, I may squish and die, or, I may have good support and make it.
I think a potential fix for B/X magic users is ritual casting from 5e. You can have in your spell book a number of first level spells equal to your int bonus eg read magic. These spells can be cast as a ritual from your spell book with a casting time of ten minutes. That way the MU has one daily spell and some ten minute tricks like dispel magic
I’ve found just adding more spells doesn’t always work - also dispel magic is one of the most powerful spells in BX 😊
@@BanditsKeep Esoteric Enterprises has ritual magic for over-level spells. The first thing the crew figured out was that they could use level 5 Animate Dead to have a single skele-bloke helper around. Magic is also more awkward in many ways, it's much harder to learn new magic. Every single time you transcribe a new spell from a weird book you found there's a chance for disaster. The second thing the crew learned about magic was that doing spells could burn their house down. But each wizard can learn any spell and ritually use it if they find the right book. And finding the right book is the hard part.
Ritual magic in the undeworld takes a turn. You are not going to use that in combat. Normal rules for random encounters apply, you are standing there chanting for ten minutes in a weird bunker among cave bears.
Using magic in the safety of the city above is more dangerous. Not because magic works differently, but because using magic attracts the state's attention. There is no spell to Dispel Cops.
It's very interesting to throw something at combate to high int PCs, like: "you look at the ceilling while your companions are fighting and see that if you hit the right place, it will collapse", something like that.
True! My players are always collapsing ceilings and lighting stuff on fire 😂
Inspired by your channel, I have decided to give BX a look (i started with BECMi). I was really surprised with the Rule that you cannot have more spells in your spellbook than you can memorize. Given the importance of Read Magic for scrolls and the such. OD&D allows for spell research so I am assuming they do not have restrained number of spells. BX rules as written is brutal on the MU.
Yes, a BX MU does not have it easy that’s for sure!
@@BanditsKeep have you ever played BX R.A.W? What spells did the MU pick?
@@rolanejo8512 always - a mix depending on the player popular are sleep, read magic, charm person for level 1
I did a couple of things to make Magic Users more fun to play. Lore is a good one and involved a lot of intelligence checks, done behind the screen like every other check.
First was the staff. I allowed that a Magic User could take a staff as a weapon. Then they could enchant it by spending on day to carve their personal runes onto the staff. Once the runes were carved, they could cast any spell from their memory into the staff. The spell would remain in the staff for 1 week per level of the spell. One week for Sleep, two weeks for Invisibility, etc. The Magic User could cast one spell per every 6 levels into their staff. So one from levels 1-6, two at levels 7-12, etc.
A staff with stores spells in it could also be used by the Magic User only with bonuses in combat. Every spell cast into the staff gives the Magic User +1 to hit and damage when using it. Of course, once the spell was cast the bonuses would drop or be gone.
This makes the staff more useful and more desirable. All Magic Users want a Staff of the Archmagi, but this will due for now and give opponents something to thing about.
The next idea I stole from Dragonsfoot. The Wand of Wizardry. The Wand of Wizardry is constructed/gifted the the Magic User or his Master upon reaching First Level. It stores 1d6 charges that regenerate 1d4 at midnight or whenever. A bonus of 1/charge per level is added to stored charges and the charge regeneration. A Wand of Wizardry has the following abilities for 1 charge: Light and Magic Missle (one missile only). For 3 charges: the Magic Missle can be changed to an Elemental Missile projecting either a fire missile, an ice missile, a lightning missile or a rock/stone missile. The function is that it is useful in combat. For each charge expended, the Sand of Wizardry does d6+1 hp damage. All Missles require a successful to hit roll. And the Wand of Wizardry costs 100gp. This cost must be paid with the Magic Users starting money.
Just a few ideas to make Magic Users more fun and interesting with more options.
Cool! I Like the idea of the staff being a magic weapon, adding additional spells per day to me anyways does not seem to be the “answer” but there are so many options and it really depends so much on the group.
@@BanditsKeep It only gives them one or two more spells. And it can be any spell so they can plan ahead or have a backup. Also, it supports the "Magic User has a staff" stereotype. "What hideous thing will he do to us now?" If he loses it, he will try to get it back as well.
Like the Wand of Wizardry, it is just enough to get a Magic User started and not feel useless after he casts his one spell and throws all five of his daggers. I thought this was very important for the new players of the group so they feel like part of the party and not just the pack mule.
@@cunningwarrior1827 I get it. I just feel like there are never "enough" spells for some players to feel part of the group.
I think having spells alloted to items like wands/stalves/rods/rings/scrolls are in line with BX/ Vancian magic instead of relying on limited spell slots or ability to memorise having spells stored on multiple items on the person of the magic user is way more gonzo and exciting.
Finding a scroll with spells above your caster level and casting it anyway despite the risk as the hail Mary is brilliant.
That's why the thief had a chance to read scrolls is there scrolls need to be given as a low level treasure
For sure, scrolls are awesome.
We've always played like scrolls are easy to use. Your level does not matter when casting from a scroll, someone else who had a high enough level has already done the heavy lifting. You are just channeling what that bloke penned down.
But if you find a cool level 3 scroll you have to decide if you want to pop it off now and have that fireball on level 1, even if just once. Or if you want to save and copy the scroll into your book. Each choice consumes the scroll.
Just came across this channel........then I thought cameras.....then I thought cool if you played guitar......behold in the background. Loved the photo stuff so I am sure this will be cool.
Welcome aboard!
15:50 I like this comment - allow the magic user to know what is going on with magic.. That goes back to the purpose of having a magic user in the party! You need one to figure out what is going on in the dungeon or th adventure. It goes back to why there are 4 classes and why you probably need one of each in your group - each one has skills or knowledge or abilities to get you through different parts of the adventure. MAKE MAGIC-USERS MORE MAGICAL!
For sure
I had an idea for cantrips that any PC can cast a number of cantrips equal to some number per day (number being maybe Proficiency bonus in 5e, or character level, or equal to the number of spell slots), and any cantrip beyond that costs a level of exhaustion (5e) or cost them a hit point.
Oh, that’s a neat idea - I like using exhaustion. In my high level 5e game that was one thing I used to great success to challenge the group
Brilliant advice on languages ty
Thank You!
Great ideas. i can't wait to try them out.
Let me know how they work out for you
I was following along with John Wick's 30 characters from 30 games challenge a while back, so I made a magic user from OSE, which I heard plenty about, but haven't played. I agree the level one guy didn't feel particularly magical with his Read Magic, dagger, and bag of crap. I had enough random starting cash for a retainer though. I was pretty excited, because my worst witch became a team of adventure bastards starting on the painfully slow path toward power (or doom).
If I can trick- I mean convince our 5e group into trying a B/X one shot I think adding a little extra magic (especially familiars) would help them like it more.
For sure, if you are coming from a game that has “at will” spellcasting etc., it can be a hard sell unless they’ve already shown boredom at that level of power.
I tend to like "skill-based" systems best, and this video gave me an idea for a new character archetype; a kind of sorcerer/charlatan.
Firstly, the character IS a sorcerer and does real magic. But he also is skilled at a very specific kind of bluff. He makes liberal use of powders, simple chemical reactions, cold reading, and the like to simulate "magical" effects. This can be used as a grift, but I'm thinking it is more a way to awe and intimidate folk. And if he's ever called out, he can break out the real magic as needed. Better yet is to mix the real and the fake to keep observers guessing and off balance.
As an example, in a fight the mage throws down a simple smoke bomb for concealment, casts a light spell on a sling stone, then fires it off with his sling (or just hucks it, whatever). It looks fancy and does several useful things; concealment, illumination, and a physical attack.
Good stuff, Bandit. Thanks.
Nice!
I think any character could pull that off. It's not a class feature, you as a player come up with a neat idea and put it into practice. You could have a hobbit hidden with a speaking cone in the smoke who waves a torch around and impersonates a demon rising from a portal on the floor.
As a fun side note: Earthdawn wizards have the Arcane Muttering skill. The wizard mutters incomprehensible and ominous things that might or might not be a spell to people who hear it.
Absolutely fantastic! Filled with so many good tips.
Thanks 😊
A familiar? You mean the demon that helps the witch-marked curse others, talk to the dead through the devil, and--Oooh! It's a Cat! I love it, love it, love it!
*Everyone else* "Demon-dog of fire and hell!" Cue witch-burning music...
ah yes, a familiar can be a great resource or the source of your demise depending on the town :)
I'm working on a house rule system that allows wizards the cast unlimited spells, but they have to succeed at spellcraft checks for every cast.
Failure makes them take damage, and destroys to spell component. They cannot cast that spell again until they acquire the component or focus again.
Cool
I always gave them 3-4 spells including read magic, write magic, and one offensive spell and/or one defensive spell. High INT casters may start with 4 spells. Writing spells into a spell book also requires special ink which costs the mage some money. But armor is expensive in my world so these requirements add balance as well as immersion, etc.
Cool, I believe AD&D recommends something like that as well
My thoughts exactly. Good video.
Thank You!
I like to let the MU use the wand as a "spell focus" allowing 1 spell per level to be cast like a sorcerer the same spell can't be cast twice in a day.
Cool!
I am enjoying your channel as a 46 year old who cut their teeth on Ad&d2e.
@@bartitsulab Awesome, thanks!
I really liked everything you said! I'm not sure though if there's a reason not to have the ability to read scrolls as an innate ability for a wizard /magic - user.
I'm just getting back to old school stuff. Started with B/X 30'ish years ago but have been going through all the editions since. So I haven't yet figured it out for myself. I'm thinking of trying unlimited castings per day but with a spell casting roll for every spell and a critical failure chance. Also I'm thinking of giving them an attack cantrip of 1d6 + int damage. Heresy? Will it work?
That type of system can certainly work and I’m sure that some players and dungeon Masters will really love it. I would just say that a system like that presents a very magical world so if that is your intention it should be good. But if you’re trying to emulate sword and sorcery or low magic that’s definitely not going to work LOL in the end it just comes down to what you’re looking for at your table.
@@BanditsKeep Yes of course. This is exactly why I loved all the ideas you presented.
Oh and before the above mentioned radical magic revamp I gave my wife's druid +1 1st level spell for high wisdom and also let her use those as slots for any level 1 druid spells so there's a chance to use those rarely useful spells as well. This is Old school essentials advanced btw.
An age-old statment with regards to early game magic users that I go by: You have weapon profficiencies for a reason. Slings are better than people give them credit for.
Indeed
2e darts are more dangerouns than they look. You can toss out three of them per round. The only downside is short range, but a dart-fight on the streets would be pretty nasty.
I think of them as oversized roman military darts, more than a pub dart and same or bigger than a lawn dart.
I have long loved and played 1E but always thought the magic user should have some type of spell, 1 or 2, which can be cast per round but not over-powered of course and increase in power as they level up. As far as scrolls as a DM a lot of the lower level encounters using RAW treasure rewards just do not provide a lot of scrolls to be found. I like your idea of a wand to store up spells.
Hi there, just discovered your channel recently but love the content! (See a comment I did on another video). Any chance you might share a pdf of these house rules? It would be much easier than transcribing from the video 😊
I will slowly work my way through all your videos 😄
Sure, I am slowly but surely uploading stuff to share and these rules can/will be part of that. Thanks for watching 😊
IF you feel Magic-users need a boost, try free cantrips ( like lighting a candle, small stuff) familiars, a staff or wand( they can store a level 1 spell in), a bonus for Intelligence, ability to detect magic( even powerful casters), a free magic blast ( just equal to thrown dagger)some starting scrolls. One of those options could help, but i never found it necessary. I do give Read Magic as a free skill to MU.
That can all work depending on the table - but I personally would never give unlimited magic to a MU no matter how weak it might seem, IMO you are immediately setting up a high magic world when you do.
@@BanditsKeep players never abused it, so it depends. They used it for weird dramatic affects. Light candles, stay dry in rain while others got soaked, made their eyes glow or voice boom to intimidate, make a plant bloom, scare a guard dog. I tried several different things over the years, im an old gamer, and once had a solid core group that played regularly.
@@shockerck4465 sure, but if the 1st level MU can do that, so can any 1st level MU so unless you limit MU to PCs people all over the place are constantly casting spells (minor as they are) thus a high magic setting IMO - not that there is anything wrong with that, just not my thing
@@BanditsKeep in my campaign Magic users are very rare, along with demihumans.
@@shockerck4465 Cool, so you balance it by limiting MU. That can certainly maintain a lower magic feel IMO - if that's what you are going for
Great ideas. Ive never read rules for wands or staffs or scrolls.
Thanks!
Everyone should be afraid of a magic user. If you ran into a stranger who could potentially be carrying a high-powered handgun, an incendiary grenade, a universal translator, a tranquilizer dart, a jet pack, and a mind-control device, how would you react to their presence?
Indeed
As a thief, I mug them.
Charles Dickens complained that it takes a half-hour to light a candle from a tinder box. Have your players attempt it on a cloudy, moonless night knowing that you might jump out and spray them with pepper spray at any moment to give them the feel of having a candle or torch go out in a dungeon.
This is why you keep multiple sources of flame going
MERP has extensive rules for this, because MERP/Rolemaster rolls that way. Depending on tools and situation it takes a number of rounds to light a torch or a camp fire. The game uses wonderfully low-brow spells like heating water.
This matters when some healing herbs need to be prepared. You can't just slap a potion into a dude, all herbs have a specific way to use them. Some require brewing them into fresh tea.
In Call of Cthulhu and other games set closer to our time, there are more alternatives accessible to the PCs. Players like to get an electric torch if they can. Later on in Delta Green, everyone has a modern flashlight and your feds run around with 90's cell phones.
Matches appear relatively early. There is a number of historical matches of odd design you can use. Ones where a small glass pellet or phial with acid provides the ignition, ones where you strike them against any rough surface etc. Most of the time you transport a flame from one place to another with a wooden or cloth wick.
I do the same for elves, but I also allow then to choose from MU or the Cleric spell chart. However once chosen that is the only type of spells they can use.
Oh interesting, I like that
My friends decided to smack clerics and MUs together into one class. There was no effective difference between the lists. There was no half-fighter, armoured spellcaster alternative like clerics at all. A priest is simply a bloke in a robe functonally similar to an MU. Spells have three optional categories, you can decide that all MUs follow one of these. An MU priest then becomes functionally a white wizard.
Right now I like the Esoteric Enterprises priests. The difference isn't what spells you got but how you toss them. Clerics use magic by skill check. If the skill fails, your god comes calling to you instead. The gods are capricious, jealous twats who can grant you five spells in a row or demand that you dance and sing for them like a monkey as you attempt the first of the day. The DM rolls to see which spells the god chooses to grant, it's a system that constantly reinforce how dependent you are on your deity. Sometimes god calls and wants you to burn $1000 in PCP right frickin now.
I give the magic-user the innate ability of read magic which just takes turns to perform based on the difficulty of what is being read.
Interesting, does this work for scrolls?
Oddly I went with staves instead of wands, which is basically lifting from Fastasy Trip. I layer the knowledge of making (or "crafting") more sophisticated versions into the game so that say the enchanter's staff can hold extra spells of that type. I totally agree with the language thing, negotiation with monsters is like what's supposed to happen.
"Benefit of the doubt" is the alternative to rolling dice. It can be difficult to get used to, but it pays off imo.
Almost all monsters in old d&d don't use Vancian magic either with their 3/day innate abilities. Why not buff the MU with read/detect 3/day? Or the wand can do it? Idk
Monsters are not PCs IMO they play by different rules
@@BanditsKeep right, but there is a lot ofnon-vancian magic going on out there.
Power is power, PC or NPC will find a way to try to disprove your abilities. It's better to have spells and be powerful than have pretense. RP can work, in my experience DMs and players all find a reason to test your abilities.
Ah yes, the B/S magic-user.
🪄
I think that there is a very simple solution but requires deep rules changes- rolling for magic. A good example is warhammer 2ed. Magic is dangerous, it can mutate you, use with caution.
I write my own rules set, there every spellcaster is rolling, clerics included, but also all non clerics, have wild magic, when wierd random things can happen.
Not a fan of rolling for magic personally, but if it works for your group, that’s awesome
@@BanditsKeep An important detail in WFRP is magic points. The more wizard careers you complete, the more you get. So you are both casting magic from mana and with a check.
I think there is some wisdom in having at-will "spells," because it makes magic users feel more magical, because otherwise they're just a guy in a bathrobe except for the few turns a day they do some bombastic thing that uses a spell slot.
Here's the thing, since it's exclusively a flavor problem, it doesn't have to involve any mechanical changes. Just like your example of the guy with the 0gp cost flavor-only sack of potion bottles, party tricks, and "nonmagical magic things." Though frankly most of those flashes and puffs would be covered by the AD&D spell Cantrip, which later became the WotC spell Prestidigitation if one wanted a more mechanical solution.
B/X rules cyclopedia say that Magic Users can throw rocks (and other such improvised weapons of approximately fist size). Rocks (or other such fist sized blunt objects) are basically always available on the ground unless the DM says otherswise. Tah dah, magic users now have an infinite use spell that they can use as often as they would attack, that does the same damage as throwing a rock, because mechanically it IS just throwing a rock, but in world actually it's, I don't know, zapping them with raw magic instead. Now it feels more properly wizardy.
Where does it say they can throw rocks? Why are rocks always available? I simply do not agree - how many spells did Gandalf cast? Was he not magical?
@@BanditsKeeppg19 "Weapons: A magic-user may only use daggers as weapons. Optionally, at the DM's discretion,
magic-users can use the staff, blowgun, flaming
oil, holy water, net, thrown rock, sling, and
whip."
pg65 "Rock, Thrown: This is a rock of fist size or
smaller. When a character throws any object that
causes impact damage, treat it as if it were a
thrown rock; the DM can reduce the damage
done if he thinks it is not as punishing as a normal rock. Strength modifications apply to attack
rolls and damage.
If you are using the optional Weapon Mastery
rules, all characters are considered to have Basic
mastery level with thrown rocks."
And obviously roughly fist-sized throwable objects aren't ALWAYS available, but they are basically any time the party has freedom of motion and access to their gear. If you're not in a featureless void or captured somehow, you can probably find a number of throwable objects in your immediate vicinity.
And Gandalf sat there lighting pinecones in rainbow shades of fire and lobbing them at worgs until nearly dawn while the worgs waited for their goblin companions to come and chop the trees down.
That's EXACTLY the kind of thing I'm arguing magic users should be able to do.
@@dragonboyjgh One article I read for dying magic in Tolkien was to give Gandalf a huge pool of starting spells. But each one used is gone for good. Magic will be gone from the world, they choose how to use the last of it.
MERP copied the Rolemaster spells right off. We think Bilbo and LotR are two very different books. MERP is more closely inspired by Bilbo, where random wizards can come walking down the road and off you go on adventure with some dwarfs all of a sudden.
@@SusCalvin I adore that from a flavor-first perspective. I'm not sure if it works for a traditional D&D style of dungeon and hex crawling style of play, but I definitely want to use that in something. Thank you for sharing.
@@dragonboyjgh I don't think the author was very serious about PC wizards using this. They wanted to pick on on Tolkien's ideas of the waning glories of previous ages.
Some games have wizards, but all of them are NPCs. In Pendragon you play manly knights in mail suits. Wizards and magic item exist around you and play active roles in adventures but you don't play them. There is a magic system but only the DM uses it. It makes wizards pay for magic with very long naps in the fey lands. It limits how often Merlin can make an appearance and personally set stuff straight.
Would you require your MU to pay for books they have to carry around so can get their knowledge, or do you just assume they researched enough before to know this or that?
Also, what would be your restrictions regarding Charm Person, if any, other than what is clearly stated in the book? (Would a merchant give to the MU his goods for free or little money if charmed? Would a charmed captain command his garrison to follow the PC on his adventure? Would a (low level) king start a war for the PC? I feel this is such a great spell but since it has so little ruling, I am not sure how much to allow or not.)
Thanks in advance for your insightful comments.
In BX I typically have them start with the books, but if they lose them they would have pay to replace. As far as charm person goes - the Merchant might give a discount but would not give it away for free. The Captain could maybe be convinced. But the crew would be very unlikely and will notice this strange behavior for sure. The king might with some convincing. All this really depends on what and how the PCs use the spell - mostly they would not go against their general nature
I did a similar thing with the elves. I also changed their stat requirements to DEX and CHA instead of STR and INT. Seems more elf.
For magic users, I figure that since they use spell books and study magic, they should get Read Magic for free. The more I think of it the more I think it should be a free casting, like cantrips in Pathfinder or 5e. Here's another idea, how about making some arcane attack ability that's like a weaker magic missile that does 1d4 but can be cast without using slots? Lets the mage do something even when their spells are gone.
I also think the B/X scroll times are crazy. How many months does it take to write a first level scroll?
If those things work for your table, go for them but unlimited magic is a big no-no for me. Also 1 week to write a scroll - a good DM is going to let that happen during down time so I don’t really see an issue there, more that they can’t do it till 9th level!
@@BanditsKeep I thought that it took much longer to make a scroll. I must be wrong. How often does Read Magic come up in your games besides reading scrolls?
@@99zxk 1 week per spell level so for a 1st level spell, one week. If I know a MU has read magic, I make sure it comes up - secret arcane writing to open doors or bypass traps etc. that being said. Scrolls should be a pretty major part of magical treasure and many a time a low level MU in my group has ended up with a few powerful spells via scroll.
@@BanditsKeep F'ing A. What about elves and scrolls? You do the innate magic thing, so can they use scrolls of they have read magic?
@@99zxk no, elves could not use scrolls in that campaign
Magic Missle as a BX class features for magic users rather than a spell: Drop any memorized spell slot to release a burst of raw arcane power floor d6+1 damage, no save.
Interesting option - the Wonders and Wickedness system does something like that
@@BanditsKeep when I was a kid my DM allowed clerics to drop prepared spells for cure lite wounds. I thought that was slightly unbalanced but I liked the idea of the mechanic.
I think the sorcerer class was built on this. You still got spell slots, but they aren't pre-loaded. As a drawback you have less, or they aren't as powerful. It created a class with more intuitive magic that couldn't match the raw book-learning power of a good ol' wizard.
Gimme that T-Shirt!
😊
What if you did read magic as a class ability of 3 in 6 chance, with having some slight variation in success or failure depending on how obscure the arcane magic may be? A long forgotten text would be 1 in 6, a common ward might be 5 in 6?
Also, what do you think about vancian with a twist. Prior to casting a spell you have a 1 in 6 chance of success of remembering it to cast again? Want to cast again? Roll 1 in 6. If you fail it’s lost like RAW.
I’ve seen people do those things, personally I’m not a fan. I think adding the ability to cast more is just a Band-Aid on a perceived problem.
@@BanditsKeep We tried that, with the addition of a cost of failiure. My friends made it a d20 save on about 13+ to 15+ to activate. On a 1 consequences happen. Each failiure raises it, 1-2 and then 1-3 etc. They laid out pretty mild consequences, your cleric is struck mute or blind the rest of the day or bears a donkey head for half a week. And no further spells that day.
I think we were too nice. In Esoteric, priests roll a d6 against maybe 2-3 in their skill. Each and every failiure means a jealous, demanding god from the depths wants something from you. This can mean your level 1 priest starts uncontrollably manifesting spells as their body is consumed by an inner flame at worst. Most results are demands for supplication and sacrifice. God wants you to sing and dance like a monkey or cut yourself for a couple hp.
Hey, are you still thinking about running Keep?
It’s on the list, but not very high up unfortunately
Bx d&d combat rules all weapons do 1d6, so really it doesn’t matter what the “weapon” is. They all do 1d6, unless you use the variant weapon damage rules.
So clerics or magic users using a sword does not upset game balance
It’s the use of MAGIC swords that will as 20% of magic items are swords
@@BanditsKeep you could always use a ruling that magic swords won’t have any bonuses for clerics or magic users because their magic and the swords magic negate each other
True. Though now you’ve added two house rules for what I believe is very little if any gain. That being said, BX is so easy and fun to mess with and this thread shows that!
Are these wand/familiar rules BX RAW or house rules?
Those are house rules I made for that campaign
@@BanditsKeep great house rules
@@rolanejo8512 Thanks!
I have come to the conclusion that everyone should be able to use a light crossbow. It does not make sense that a very intelligent person, such as a magic user, would not be able to use a simple mechanical weapon such as a light crossbow.
In the Middle Ages, the Pope outlawed the use of crossbows because the nobles didn't like having the most simple-minded individual on a field of battle being able to kill them, from range, with only a few hours of training to learn how to use the weapon.
In my opinion, it is a very minor rule change that doesn't really change the balance of the game.
This is how I give that first level mage a chance to be useful in combat.
Aside from that, you have some really cool points about playing up what even low level magic user's can convince others of what they can do. I can see how one can get away with all kinds of stuff with tactful use of minor illusions.
I’ve heard of people using the light crossbow as a generic weapon - while in get its easy to use (relatively) I don’t do this as it steps on the toes of niche protection
The church says a lot of things at the time. They want all the petty kingdoms to live in peace and harmony and stop raiding eachother for cattle like thugs.
The problem with magic-users has always been that the they grow in power exponentially whereas fighter classes grow linearly. So, the magic-user is horribly underpowered at first and then overpowered later.
There are no problems, only solutions
Magic users are nerds. They like to read and therefore they know stuff. And knowing stuff can be useful.
Indeed! Knowledge is power
Everyone can read. If you want to play a geographer fighter who charts places you can do so. Some Vasco da Gama bloke.
You have to play your magic-user as a smart person, not just a spellcaster. So many see the spells and never think about the languages and high Intelligence and play them as idiots and that's why they die fast at low levels.
Sorry but if your players forget they have some special item then it’s the player’s fault. We all have forgotten some minor thing that we have and didn’t use but that doesn’t make it less valuable. Give them a card with the info on it so they can read it and remember or you just remind them.
You can certainly play that way
Magic missile is a very good spell when used properly. Sounds like you aren't very creative in how you use your spells.
I’ll have to disagree with using intelligence instead of charisma. I know this video was a while ago so who knows where your head is now.
Charisma is an important stat that many people see as a ‘dump’ stat. You’re describing things that can avoid whole conflicts and is governed by charisma under the reaction roll and you suggest using intelligence instead. Then what is charisma for? It’s got two things. Loyalty and reaction. Loyalty for henchmen and hirelings and bonuses to reactions.
I kinda like the idea of a charismatic magic user being more convincing. Full of themselves and kinda of a smary shister. But you could have a low level bad charisma try to bluff the kobolds. Actually fail the reaction roll not to cross the line but the kobolds are cowardly, so they still don’t cross the line just call the magic user out on being fake. Could lead to the some funny situations.
I get the reason in general. You want to encourage the interesting play. But no one said you have to roll. Maybe this low charisma was just convincing. I dunno. I agree with what you said in spirit but I think the charisma stat is valuable but is under utilized as is and there should be a better reason to it’s toys.
Good points. I tend to use charisma quite a bit though so it is far from underutilized at my table.
I think this is really one of the “new school” vs. “old school” differences. Back in the late 70s, the game was influenced by Swords and Sorcery fiction, classics like LotR, and low budget movies. Magic in these fictions was relatively rare, and very powerful. Now days,video games, modern novels, and high budget fantasy movies influence expectations. I actually think it is boring that as a caster in 5E as an example, I can produce a magic effect every single round forever. Because of my old school lens, this just doesn’t feel right to me. It goes along with buying potions in a general store. WTF?! But this is consistent with the modern version of the game.
I am more of a Moldvay guy than 1st Ed. AD&D, but one of the things in 1st Ed. I think speaks to some of your points. And this is true for thieves as well as a class. 1st level magic-users and Thieves are quite literally, by level title, Apprentices. A1st level Fighter is a Veteran. These are not the same levels of training in their respective professions. 1st level M-U and Thieves “suck” because they are apprentices in their craft. Being able to cast only one spell per day or having a 15% chance to perform a thief skill is about right for an apprentice. The Fighter equivalent would be a Squire, who would probably have 1d4 HP. But Fighters start as Veterans, not Squires.
Way back in 1980 I ran a Lankhmar game using B/X and one of the things I did to represent how wizards are feared was I required a successful Saving Throw vs. paralysis before a character could go into melee combat with a known M-U character. Not only did this make them survive more, it produced this really cool Lankhmar-correct presentation of wizards because the players would carry alembics and braziers and all these props so that it was clear that they were a wizard. I also allowed them to wear leather armor.
100% agree! Scrolls, scrolls, scrolls! Here is what has always bothered me about magic items If I am a M-U, I am going to spend my time making scrolls, wands, rods, and daggers. Why would I make magic swords and armor that I cannot use? Sure, maybe they get paid, but 90% of the time, they are going to be making scrolls, wands, rods, and daggers. So scrolls should be one of the more common magic items that parties come across IMO.
Nice video! I am loving these!
Really good points about starting levels and that save idea is cool. Thanks!
Full disclosure, I started playing AD&D in 1984 at 11 yo. and I typically played Magic-Users or Thieves almost exclusively. I also, ironically, really loved low levels rather than the more powerful high levels. It felt more interesting to have to either role-play/sneak rather than simply go into every encounter guns blazing and due to having a pretty great DM, we spent a lot less time in combat and typically were given more options for avoiding it. Another thing he encouraged to 'feel more magical' was to play out how I cast my spells, so instead of simply saying "I cast Tasha's Uncontrollable HIdeous Laughter", I would instead say, "As we face off against the orcs, I pull a feather, a paddle, and a small pastry from somewhere within my robes. I fling the pastry at the orcs and wave the feather at them even as I turn to flaunt my bottom and paddle myself while murmuring an incantation in the spidery language of magic." (this one actually did erupt in a chorus of laughter!).
I think in the video game era, people tend to favor the rules heavy new editions with all of its combat driven actions and flanking etc, etc... and forget to roleplay. Early magic-users (and thieves) in 1E tended to shine more outside of combat. It's up to the DM to create situations that allow for every class's strengths to shine and that also makes the game more than just a combat simulator.
I personally liked the idea of taking the Write spell to transcribe scroll spells to my spellbook, though the cost could be prohibitive. You might only be able to memorize and cast one spell a day, but having several to choose from helped make that less boring and meant you had think ahead.
The first thing I look up in rules to create magic items is the cost of magic. In time, cash, personal sacrifice (hp, xp, attributes etc), bondage etc. Non-magical materials, hireling assistants and lab tools are essentially cash put to use. I like magic item creation to have a weight to it. I'm also more generous with scrolls and potions and wands. Both in how often they are found to how they are made. In my friends game, these "consumables" are only an investment of cash and time. Any MU with cash will be able to have a few backup scrolls on them.
In Call of Cthulhu from Chaosium it's relatively simple for any human to learn magic and even create some permanent magical items without even joining a cult. Some spells are doled out to favored servants directly by the gods but definitely not all. All permanent magic requires a permanent POWer attribute sacrifice. If your investigator knows the Elder Sign spell they can make their own, at a cost. It's something a retired investigator in an advisory role to the active ones can do to still help out with the good fight.
Stormbringer has a fun one. All magical items are bound demons. Most or all of human magic consists of calling on demonic or elemental services. In effect it means all magic items are intelligent, from Stormbringer itself who can decide your mates are nice, juicy souls to a magic lamp who wants to be fed incense every day or it refuses to work.
@@dmadcat73 One of my friends asked around for which highest level people actually played at. I think most people in the local community went as far as level 3-4, with a few hitting level 6.
I'm with you on this. The thing is, i DMd for about 15 years back in the 80s and 90s. I only just realuzed that I'd missed a part of the DMG that covers acquisition of MU spells. It does give read magic and 3 other spells to new magic users as a gift from their teacher.
The problem is that it's literally hidden in the middle of the DMG. It should be in the PHB if they wanted people to know about it.
Indeed!
Played my first OSE session yesterday. It was fun, but the players felt that they could not do much. This video made me think that B/X is not necesarrily as restricted as we experienced. The biggest difference between 5e and OSE is that the game challenges the players more than the character sheet.
For sure, I would encourage them to try “stuff” if a player says their character can’t do cool stuff, ask them what it is they want to do and figure a way (a chance) that it could happen - within reason of course 😂
"Did I cast 3 spells or was it 4? Well in all this excitement I clean forgot, but given this is bat guano, and it'll make a fireball that'll fry your head clean off, you'd better ask yourself - do I feel lucky?"
😊
These are great suggestions. So many good ideas. I have to admit, when we started playing the basic set we played rules as written and didn't venture to far from the book. We were either not experienced enough to broaden the definitions, or just didn't mind the rules as they were at the time. Hearing your ideas certainly opens the gates for my interpretation of BX, which was always very restrictive in nature. I stand corrected...enlightened.
I think Cantrips can be expanded more so as not to abandon them. I know I am venturing into the non-BX realm, but in the AD&D Unearthed Arcana the Cantrip spell was a 1st level spell, that when cast gave the caster 10 minor effects for the day; for instance, take the 5e cantrip Prestidigitation and all the effects it can cause, each of these effects would count as one minor effect under the UA cantrip spell. Adopting this to a BX M-U would be useful to the one-and-done, first level M-U, and dig into the player's creativity. Say the M-U could cast a cantrip effect that summons a swarm of fluttering butterflies in the area. If the M-U is clever this effect could be used to obscure, confuse or otherwise delay an attack upon his / her person; such as, the M-U casts the swarm of butterflies between him and an orc. The resulting confusion would open an opportunity for the M-U to run away.
Your idea for starting spells is awesome! I think man people make the mistake of taking Magic Missile over the very powerful Sleep or Charm Person spells...such is their folly. Also, the Find Familiar spell as you described it should also be a no-brainer. On a side note, I like the restriction on elves not having the extra starting spells / spell book option. I agree, their spells should be more innate to taught by tradition / word of mouth. They have long memories, spell books are probably unnecessary. In my opinions, elven magic should be more enchantment / druidic based anyway.
I love the hireling idea! It makes so much sense and doesn't break the game. Hirelings are highly under rated.
Thanks so much for all the input, nice idea with the UA cantrips
This single video alone is so full of fantastic tips that I'm going to have to rewatch it with a laptop next to my phone to write them all done. Thank you!
Great! Let me know how the ideas work out for you.
I’m excited to give this channel a try, cool shirt, so far so good! XD
Thanks Justin!
I play 2nd Ed, but I always found the Beyond the Wall Mage class to be closer to what I always thought a mage should be. I bridged the two systems by making Detect Magic, Read Magic, and Cantrip(as per the little wish article from dragon magazine) function as Cantrips from beyond the wall(you can cast as often as you like, as long as you can make an Int Check. If you fail, the player gets to choose if he lets the DM generate a mishap or the character is incapable of using magic the rest of the day, and all his currently active spells suddenly end). I leave the clerical versions of the spells alone, priests are pretty OP at low levels as is.
Cool
New to OSR. Love your channel. This is great, planning to play a MU next.
Thanks, that’s awesome! 🪄
Great video. I really look forward to see how DCC will handle the Vance's Dying Earth setting and their take on 'proper' Vancian-magic therein.
Agreed - I played in a playtest at the last in person GARYCON and was not overly impressed, BUT that was a super early draft, so I have high hopes changes have been made! Can’t wait to get the final version and see how they made it work!
The non-magical special effects idea opens up so-o-o many possibilities! My head is spinning right now as partially-formed thoughts dance and crowd together, inspiring new & different ones faster than i can write them down.
About scrolls; back in the AD&D '80s my group had fun basically "re-skinning" them into other one-use items. Like little envelopes of powders blown from the palm, or fragile ceramic trinkets to shatter or crush, as long as it was "consumed" by the casting.
We never thought of smoke bombs, though
That’s awesome
Thanks for sharing your experience and thoughts on MUers. There are a number of fantastic options here. I find this vid very inspiring!
Awesome, thanks!
One of the things that magic users have going for them is that any time another magic user is killed, they most likely will have a spell book. If the mage chooses, he can copy spells into his spell book. Other spells can be cast as scrolls.
So a mage with several spell books will have many extra spells he can cast. He could only carry so many as they weigh quite a bit but having 2 or 3 would give him quite a bit of power.
Interesting house rule!
@@BanditsKeep Not a house rule. It's basic D&D. Magic users have a spell book which they use to record their spells. Each day they pick the spells they want to memorize. You can use scrolls or spell books and copy spells that you do not have into your own book. When you do this, the scroll is consumed or if a book, it erases the spell from the book.
The mage would need certain things in order to do this such as special inks, diamond dust or whatever. Usually it would just cost the mage $xxx amount and you would of course have to have a town with these supplies on hand.
@@CaptCook999 Not in the basic I use, is that BECMI? please refer me to the book and page # I'd love ti read it, casting from books is not a thing I've ever seen - but cool idea!
@@CaptCook999 I know AD&D 2e had the concept of information density in your book. Your book has X pages, and each spell level uses dY pages or so. Wizards at higher level typically know more spells than they can fit in one book. They have a set of master books at home in the tower and copy them into a "field manual" for no cost but time and the cash to buy blank books. Sometimes they replace books or give their old ones as hand-me-downs to promising students.
I know the precursor to Dragonbane had a sort of book-wizards in Chronopia. They described them as dudes who had spells pre-loaded as book pages, who could snap open a book and release a volley of them. You didn't play these dudes yourself, they were a pretty nasty encounter in town.
Here's what I do in my AD&D 1e/2e hybrid game:
1. Every Wizard has Cantrip as an at will ability.
2. Signature Spell NWP that allows one spell to be always memorized and is cast at +2 level efficacy. So in effect you get an extra spell slot.
3. Allow bonus spells for high INT similar to what the Cleric gets for high WIS.
A 1st level Wizard can have 4 memorized spells with these three changes and they are a more formidable party member. The rest including brain power and thinking is up to the player.
Cool