Does the romance genre have a white supremacy problem?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 มิ.ย. 2024
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The controversy with Tillie Cole’s “Darkness Embraced” is a dime a dozen when it comes to romance books featuring heroes with racist backgrounds. But why is this a reoccurring pattern in the romance genre, and even other genre books that depict romantic relationships? I have theories for why this dynamic might be more insidious than we think.
TIMESTAMPS
⌛ 0:00 - Darkness Embraced by Tillie Cole
⌛ 09:17 - Endel [ad]
⌛ 10:29 - Excerpts from Darkness Embraced, Tillie’s apology, and her defenders
⌛ 19:20 - Using dark romance as a Trojan Horse
⌛ 23:28 - Examples of other books
⌛ 30:37 - Redemption arcs and happily-ever-afters
⌛ 35:01 - Publishing’s and BookTok’s racial bias
SOURCES
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www.pajiba.com/miscellaneous/...
www.theguardian.com/books/201...
www.pajiba.com/miscellaneous/...
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www.thecut.com/2022/11/bookto...
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you either die a dark romance girlie, or live long enough to become a extreme horror bro
Oh no,,,,
Underrated comment
The extreme horror fans are so much worse
@@pizzadogma So true, the amount of times a horror bro has recommended an "amazing horror" movie/book only for it to just be the most violent (both sexually and regular), against feminine people specifically, thing I've ever seen, is too many to count. Like I think gore has its place if used correctly. I think Talk to Me is a good example. Hell, when it's super campy I think it can be fun. But shock for shock value is not what makes great horror.
@@FortuitousOwlI'm definitely a big horror fan, but I 100% agree that it is terribly flawed in the sense of female suffering exploitation and sadism/senseless gore. I Believe horror as a genre should have more to it - not a worshipping of violence but a subtle commentary on it. Pretty sad that many, if not most horror media, fall into the issues you mentioned.
As a black dude that fucking inhales romance stories, When i think of dark romance, i think of like Vampries, Ghosts, werewolves. Instead, we get racism. That's crazy
Right? Since when does dark romance mean toxic, abusive, white supremist love interests.
True , they are glorfy our studgles and turning it into romance
I'm not sure what it is about romance books, but for some reason they're often very toxic. Straight ones often have downright abusive tropes, gay men are often looked at through a straight lense and if they have people of colour it's either very specifically written that way or the person is some side character. Same with things like handicaps? Unless it's very specifically about the handicap it's never a thing (I can remember 1 side character in a wheelchair and I do because I was so surprised).
I personally find it very frustrating because in some cases you're literally reading the same book by a different author. You'd get so many incredibly interesting stories if people would diversify. I'm very happy that they're starting to sell way more queer books and books that are written by different people *here (even though the majority is still US, which is a whole different topic)
Find worrying that usually this books have eh... certain things.
Yeah, I can relate to this. If someone wants the 'enemies to lovers' or 'love redeems the villains' thing lets keep the circumstances fictional rather than supporting real world evils.
My mother was the daughter of a Nazi man and a Mexican immigrant woman. It was not a warm and fuzzy story of inspiration and redemption. It was a childhood of abuse and hate for my mother that ended in a messy divorce. My poor mom has so much generational trauma and internalized racism packed into her psyche. She looks like her mom - she is clearly Mexican but she "identifies" as white and supports Trump. It's very painful to see and if your joy comes from fetishizing the very real generational trauma that people like my mother have gone through I will yuck your yum all I want, thank you.
I'm sorry you had to deal with that growing up :( ppl need to realize that's the actual reality of those relationships, not the happily ever after they keep pushing
that is very terrible, thank you for putting in the time to write this comment. i think most people like me just think fetishizing this type of stuff is terrible because "this would never happen, it's offensive to even think these things are just the trials and tribulations of being in love" but it in fact does happen in real life and to that exact degree. it is something truly traumatic and really it's really telling of what the author thinks whenever they interact with systemic opression. they think not wanting to be murdered because of your race is just being "sexily feisty"
All Hail for your mom. TRUMP 2024 ✋
wow@@UbermenschOst
Its been so long and yall still talking about trump 😩😩😩
calling the KKK heir "the White Prince" has me in shambles already... why did they say it like that 😭
WHITE PRINCE?! 💀
with a capital W too! for extra emphasis!
Because she's fetishizing this KKK dude.
I'd never even known there are HEIRS to the KKK??! 😭😭
@@withcindy The capital W lets you know to pronounce the H as well.
can we PLEASE just get some romance books about interracial couples where one of them ISN’T horribly racist. it happens in real life guys I promise
Go read Talia Hibbert! She’s amazing, so funny and heartwarming!
This! And all the more so because depending on their environment, interracial couples can still face obstacles and dumb cliches in real life, and would definitely benefit from more depictions in media that are free of bullsh*t power dynamics and underlining exoticism...
Act Your Age, Eve Brown!! Also the white guy male interest is autistic and the Black woman protag has ADHD
.... I can recommend "Cinderella is dead". It has an interracial wlw relationship and it's a pretty cool book imo.
I've been married for 16 years. It happens everyday❤
I'm just sooooo over the "racist white man learns women of color can actually be more than just sex objects" trope in romance. It's actually incredibly disturbing how common it is and how often NEW stories are being written about it 😫😡
I never once read a book like that. And I've been reading romance for 7 years now.
Quite frankly, white men should also be a little offended that they're written like that.
You don’t have to read them you know
You don’t have to read them you know
Why are you reading them than? Lol
As a Brit, hearing someone say Brits are ‘the most welcoming people’ actually made me laugh out loud.
Yeah. For hundreds of years they’ve ‘welcomed’ themselves to other lands through colonialism.
Maybe if they lived in the world of heartstopper
I had to stop myself to figure out if she was joking. 😭
The type of Brits to say that would also defend imperialism and colonialism because 'At least they got trains and learned English' like they were doing the global majority a favour
For real, it's been only a few years since anti-immigration talking points convinced half our idiot country to leave the EU. If that's not numerical proof of our continued lack of welcomingness, I don't know what is.
Straight authors be scraping the bottom of the barrel trying to search for a new spin on forbidden love, meanwhile they’ll be oppose any same-gender relationships
or when they do write same-gender relationships they'll fetishize it within a straight lens
And they refuse to make one of the straight characters trans like in a lady for a duke, which was great and had awesome forbidden love
This is why I’ve been sticking to romance by queer authors for the most part.
@@asterismos5451 lowkey scouring these comments for book recommendations from the people sharing 'antidote' books- and thank you! I'm not usually enthusiastic about historical romance, but from the blurb alone this book sounds pretty great.
Fr, like-
_Your answer’s right there_
Haven’t read any of the books that sparked this video, but the fact that the author calls the characters a KKK “prince” and cartel “princess” like a wattpad gang romance written by a middle schooler tells me everything I need to know about whether or not the author handled the topic with nuance.
i am 100% positive this white british lady has never encountered anything violent or dangerous in her life
@@withcindyRight? The vibe I get off so many “dark” romances like this is more tween edgelord fanfiction rather than actually pushing societal taboos in meaningful ways. They wanna feel like big kids who read serious books for grownups without committing to the real thought and effort to give heavy topics the weight they need because that would cut into smut time.
@@aconstantstateofbladerunne5251 yesss exactly. You can’t just put “dark” or “extreme” in your genre tag, write whatever you want, and expect mainstream approval. That’s just lazy in every direction.
@@aconstantstateofbladerunne5251 As someone who read Dark Romance for a while and then stopped...this is 100% correct.
@@VeronicaWarlock OMG yes! I like writing dark topics, but it doesn't mean I'm immune from criticism. I hate how other dark authors act like they're invincible because they label themselves as "Dark/extreme". They just end up sounding like conservatives by saying "well if ur offended by it, thats on u." like df?
funny how some romance books have some of the most horrific concepts that scare me more than actual horror
romance has that power of defying genres
Oh no... that just gave me a horrific thought of one of these weird writers making a romance "redeeming" a Jigsaw-esque character. Sadly, it probably already exists.
Why read Cormac McCarthy when you can read Tillie Cole?
Not going to lie, I find that the romance genre has fueled my creativity as a horror writer in a way that no other genre does. There isn't a genre more conducive to good horror than romance.
It’s because there are people who ACTIVELY want this. It makes you wonder how many of the would act on racist fantasies if given the chance.
I hate the fact that Tanner’s father is abusive because it feels like the author is trying to say it’s not Tanner’s fault that he’s racist. Anyone who has racist relatives will tell you that them being racist doesn’t necessarily mean that they treat their family badly. Some racist relatives can be one of the sweetest people you’ve ever met until you’re not one of their own.
very true!! i think it's the author's very non-subtle way of showing how hate is learned
Yeah, like, no shit they treat you well, you are the same race as them
@@barbararab6390 I know that’s the point I’m trying to make. Most racists are not cartoonish evil people so the author making them so diminishes the problem to it being a personal defect rather than a generational and systemic problem.
Actually that was my experience as well. Rented an apartment from a former Hitler Jung (yup! And I'm of Jewish decent too; if you want to know why: because I needed a place to stay and I had very limited options). He was 1) still indoctrinated but 2) very loving and considerate of his family and his circle. He somehow really liked me. And I will admit, when I was faced with a horrible bully at work, and my liberal colleagues did not stand up against the bully (who was just..I have stories for another time), the Nazi actually offered support-financial and emotional. Still...he believed in Nazi propaganda. Yeah, racist people can be sweet and they can sometimes do the right thing, but still racists at the end of the day. Still refusing to accept their daughters sexual orientation at the end of the day. Still ranting about immigrants at the end of the day. I never knew if I was safe in his place, or if he'd turn on me.
Bonus: his wife was an immigrant and a person of color; they met in Germany as kids. She rolled her eyes every time he bashed immigrants. He loved her dearly. He still didn't stop his xenophobic rants. :(
@@barbararab6390honestly even if you’re a different race, they will often overlook it and consider you “one of the good ones.” Or basically dark white. Racist people often will have family of other races and just think of them as the exception.
Cherry picking groups that quite literally have massacred each other within current times and opening a word document to then say "NOW KISS" will never not be bonkers to me 💀
Only true loves kiss will break the curse (the curse is racism) ❤️
I can only think of the Nazi officer who fell in love with his Jewish prisoner maid in Schindler’s List. Way more believable way for a plot to unfold.
Now kiss 😂☠️☠️☠️
LOVE ALWAYS WINS
@@withcindy😂
it's also the fact that she was just able to spit out all racial slurs possible in that book just being under the guise of speaking through a white supremacist...
yea she was a lil too confident in writing all that down LOL (laughing uncomfortably)
Once I saw a TikTok with an author saying that she wasn't racist, the characters were. And she shouldn't be held accountable for what her characters said.
@@fuunosenshi dang that author earned the gold medal for the mental gymnastics of trying to defend herself. I'm betting $100 that she's secretly racist.
@@fuunosenshiit's completely possible to write racist characters without being racist yourself. It comes down more to how that behavior is portrayed, imo.
@@missallisnow you are still accountable for how you portray those topics, though. Saying "my MMC is racist, not me" is pretty much trying to avoid blame.
As a latina, I do want to take a moment to talk about the stereotype of the drug cartel heir latinamerican character. It's always us, always the narcos, always the heir to the drug empire. Also, nothing irritates me more than the names they give those characters... It's always Juan, or if it's a woman, then it's ALWAYS with the "ita" at the end. Those are nicknames. You'll never find a Juanita or, in this case, Adelita in Latin America that is actually called that. The name should be Adela. And finally, they always throw around Spanish words that are not relevant, as if we're stupid and can't speak English without constantly switching back and forth. But yeah, you can't expect much from a white yankee to write good representation.
i tried not to laugh while reading "Adelita Quintana" in the video because it was truly the most stereotypical fictional name someone can think of. like i am pretty sure the author is not friends with any mexicans/latin americans lol
@@withcindy It's the cho-changification of nonwhite names
I get the point but there are.ladies called Juanita as birthnames in my country ex Colombia
I think the author stopped her research at the Mexican revolution 😅
I'll never get why authors don't just browse Facebook pages for communities in the country of origin their character is supposed to be. I had someone message me that they were surprised I got names right when I got nothing about geographical locations right but when I was writing about a Cuban character in Florida, it was really easy just to look at communities for Cuban hobbies and locations and pluck out realistic names. was a lot harder for me to find out that apparently Floridians don't do basements.
I feel like pretty privilege is also overwhelming in these genres. Like he would've killed her but she was so beautiful it changed his ways.
Fr like I read this book abt a Jewish man and a nazi woman and at one point she basically said that Jewish ppl only deserve to live bc they are hot. And no I don’t remember the name of the book bc at that point I threw it away
lol her p*ssy "saves him?"
@@obsidianpaw2373Sounds like something Trisha Paytas would've said before.
Omg this is so true... don't even get me started
@@Sasu123456789x1soooo true. Always in "dark romance", the big bad tough love interest who kills everyone and everything with no hesitation ONLY provides mercy to the mc because she's hot. It's so common
Tessa Gerritsen is a biracial author of Asian and Caucasian decent. She trained as an MD before she started writing romance and crime fiction. I participated in a meeting where she was asked why the characters in her books were white women. Why didn't she write from the perspective of an Asian woman? Her answer was heartbreaking. Her agent or publisher ( I don't remember which one) told her the audience would not be interested in an Asian main character. She said that after writing for so many years from the perspective of white women, she was uncomfortable writing an Asian main character.
And that is the problem that Cindy was referring to. The white domination and whitewashing of a lot of literature. The people who complain that white authors don't stand a chance of getting published right now don't know what they're talking about. I'm an aspiring author, and I can tell you. The white authors are just fine. Male authors are just fine.
Let me guess. She’s got a asian mom and white dad? And let me guess, she married a whites guy? Asian women are so predictable. Just say you want your legacy to be white because you are self serving. Social media is littered with Olivia Munns and her mother.
This is exactly why I don't publish my own ongoing works, cause I don't do things from a completely "white" perspective, as I do tons of research to be as accurate as possible and have a variety of ethnicities
I heard it's either that or type-casted into writing the minority protagonists only. Two different symptoms, one cause.
I don't think you need to worry that much about it. Just focus on the quality
@tamarleahh.2150 I don't know exactly what you're trying to say. But if you're saying that the race of the character won't matter if the story is good I'll tell you one story: I wrote a story about a doctor in Toronto. I lived in the city at the time and worked next to the hospital. The city is 60% immigrants and a lot of them are not white. Patients of the hospital are of all colors, all hours of the day. More then half of the medical staff was not white. So I was asked to REMOVE the non white characters with the question: why can't they be white. Mind you, the diverse races were an important part of the story (it was a speculative science mystery where a disease was spreading accross all races and social classes, and therefore the issue was not genetic nor environmental) plus it was accurate. So no, people don't just care about the quality of the work.
“I can fix him.”
- “Bestie, he’s in the KKK.”
“Nevermind.”
"I can still fix this"
"Bestie--"
*loads shotgun*
"Oh, carry on."
“it takes an alpha male to handle a latina” / “can a country boy and a goth girl be in a relationship?” but turned up to 11…..purple hearts is shaking in its boots
purple hearts walked so this book could run
💜 Literally shaking and crying rn.
Purple Hearts is the first entry level to hell
A lot of romance books fetishize abuse and unequal power dynamics. I have nothing against the enemies to lovers trope, but certain authors use it as a framing device for serious societal issues that aren’t at all sexy for marginalized people (i.e. racism, misogyny, homophobia, etc.).
how ironic that romance for white ppl can be horror for marginalized ppl
Also, enemies-to-lovers isn’t “lead that’s part of a marginalized group hating and then falling in love with the lead who is bigoted and fundamentally against marginalized groups getting basic human rights,” and I need yt ppl to stop acting like that’s the only way they can understand enemies-to-lovers.
@@cristenkray5192yeah, I feel like trying to make that kind of dynamic an “enemies to lovers” thing really weirds me out
@@cristenkray5192 Shout out to “This is How You Lose the Time War.” Enemies-to-Lovers between one person from the Singularity and another from an organic hive mind.
Also they’re both women.
SLAVERY romance in fantasy setting is always such a turn-off for me. I just cant do it.
It’s amazing how some authors think just because they classify their books as “dark romance” they’ll get a free pass to write the most controversial shenanigans without facing criticism for it
i see similarities to this with the antics of authors in the extreme horror genre too. it's an easy excuse. even if the crap you write was actually applicable to the genre, that doesn't mean you're exempt from criticism
@@withcindy the living example of that is Stephen King with “It”
@@withcindyI feel like if you were a person who really embodied the love of an extreme genre, you would revel in criticisms like this or disregard it and not argue with it tepidly on Twitter. If you were really just occupied with a controversial art, you would go boldly forth and own it as a niche content rather than defend it as valid mainstream content.
I LITERALLY SAW SHIT ON INSTA REELS THAT ROMANTICIZED AND FETISHIZED NECROPHILIA :(
@@sparingharbor2600 Who is canceling anyone? What do you think criticism is? Take a bath. Listen to some soothing music. No one is out to get you or your genre. If you like this book, good for you. The rest of us will be disturbed your "kink" is racism no matter what you say. I wish you luck. It's rough out there.
18:47 "My uncle is Muslim" has the same vibes of "I'm not homophobic, I have a gay friend." This person really need to learn about the history of the British Empire.
No, but the way they commented that so confidently despite being British💀. There are no British people who are white supremists.
Immediately where my brain went as well. If they do indeed have a Muslim uncle, I hope the poor man isn't constantly asked to legitimate their bad takes, and still has time remaining in his day.
they managed to jam-cram like 10 different 'im not racist actually' stereotypical phrases into one paragraph 😂
"I'm not ______ but," never ends well.
i just can’t wrap my head around the fact that a GROWN adult woman sat down, thought of this plot, started writing a draft, and thought to herself “hmmm yes this is it i will put this out to the world.”
the human brain works in mysterious ways
I use it as hopium, if this book can get published then so can I, so can anyone lol.
@@withcindy when you first started talking about the book, I thought about this th-cam.com/video/SjcqpUwpP1U/w-d-xo.htmlsi=Uyso3-v4WAo7D1oq as if the author took it as a prompt and tried to make a story out of it....until you started reading passages 😵💫
Imagine if she has kids.
"What does your mom do?"
"Write books"
"Oh, what kind of books?"
".... books"
She wasnt wrong: the 4 stars average is proof, there is an audience for it.
🙃
"it started on booktok" could be an excellent book drama podcast name.
Or the first line of a horror
What’s so stupid to me about the people who make the “free speech” argument is that they’re conflating consequence with censoring. People hating what you published or posted and calling for it to be taken down is not an act of censorship. It’s the consequence of being a bad person publicly, where other people with free speech are allowed to disagree with you and act accordingly. That’s not AT ALL what censorship is.
Ppl wanna feel oppressed soooo bad lol
Also, SHE is the one who CHOSE to take the book down, isn't she? She decided that was best without being forced to.
Exactly. People who cry free speech don't even understand what is free speech, and think someone practicing their free speech to criticize is the same as book bannings. It's so neuron destructive.
It's freedom of speech of speech until other people want to point out your racism. Then it's suddenly toxic to speak your mind about a problematic book
@@withcindyLargely because we've built a society that has oppression olympics as its heartbeat. It's victimhood or wanting to be a youtuber for most these days.
Okay I'm Mexican and the fact that they named the girl Adelita is such a microaggression 😭 it's like giving a character from a specific ethnicity a name that is very stereotypical to that ethnic group
LOL if she had a brother his name would've been Jose
You mean like calling an Asian character Cho Chan? 😅 I'm Mexican, and I agree with you. Adelita isn't even a name, it's a nickname, and l picture a 90-something year old lady called that. Because of the song from the Mexican Revolution...
@@withcindyAhh, takes me back to E.L. James naming her version of Jacob Black José Rodriguez (since “50 Shades” was a “Twilight” fanfiction.) Who also proceeds to insert random “Holas!” into his sentences. Because of course he does. 🙄
@@fuunosenshi
♫ Y si Adelita se fuera con otro ♫
♫ la seguiria por tierra y por mar ♫
♫ Si por mar, en un buque de guerra ♫
♫ Si por tierra, en un tren militar ♫
Sorry, I couldn't resist...
It's giving JK Rowling ngl
It’s absolutely insane to think of somebody seeing an author get criticized for romanticizing racism in a novel and saying “this is equivalent to kinkshaming”
"actually, SHE is the victim!"
What is absolutely insane is the fact that people actually doesn't know the difference between fiction and reality. Yes, you can do whatever you want in fiction. Because it is fiction, no one is being hurt in reality. lol
But no one criticized the fact Naruto took children and made them soldiers and after sending them to war. That's seemed to be fine for a lot of people at thst time.
But when we talk about sex, racism or others thinks. We shouldn't be writing about that because you have people that have trauma ? Maybe don't read about it ?
You kinda have a point while I agree with the above.
@@dejavudeux then what about jaws? that movie got people to think that sharks were so dangerous when in fact, sharks are a lot more harmless and don't go out of their way to attack people unless threatened. fiction shapes how we view actual situations in reality.
@@kymeruh Just because there are exceptions doesn't mean that those exceptions are the rule. Take for example the video game GTA V, everyone plays it, everyone drives aggressively, does highly reprehensible things, kills, steals etc... yet no one goes out in the real world and reproduces the actions of their characters, and even if one person should do it, it would be what, one person in 100, that doesn't make a rule. So yes, fiction in general terms remains purely and simply an invented world, and the people who are literally influenced by fiction are those who can't tell the difference between fiction and reality, or who are emotionally fragile.
This is literally how I feel when I read romance webtoon/manwha. Male love interests who have done some horrid shit (and I MEAN HORRID SHIT) still get forgiven and seen as "understandable because of their past", while female "villain" characters whose only crime is to be mean and rude get the worst punishment. Also, when webtoons do add people of color, they are always seen as barbarians or exotic races. Literally, they have no other personality but being "rough, animal-like, and thinking about killing/fighting all the time."
Cindy, if you ever read some romance webtoons, I guarantee you will be seething (although I love to see your reaction LMAO).
Deplorable male characters getting more grace than flawed female characters sounds unfortunately like a common trend among all media😭
Which is why it pisses me the fuck off when Webtoon constantly promotes those Reincarnation romance manhwas which are often the biggest offenders of these tropes. People complain a lot about isekai anime but there's the same sense of staleness and reliance on gimmicks with those stories, but bc it's more character focused than action focused, the main problems manifest in the character writing itself. That and there's an awful lot of islamophobia and xenophobia towards middle eastern people in a lot of these manhwas, though moreso with the action ones
If you want to know something sad, this attitude towards the female character has been around since humans began living in cities, in Mesopotamia 5500-1800BC. While researching for a novel, I read a book on common Sumerian proverbs and adages, one that stuck with me was: “a rebellious man will be allowed reconciliation, a rebellious women will be dragged through the mud” 🥲
Can I recommend This Isekai Maid is Forming a Union?
its ok you can say get schooled
I had a creative writing teacher tell the class “It’s not that you can’t write something, it’s just going to be harder to do it well,” and that has stuck with me. Writing a romance novel with a racist (let alone a klansmen) protagonists is going to be a lot of work. Let’s be honest, a lot people writing these stories like the idea pseudo enemies to lovers but don’t want to do the work that comes with writing about racism and bigotry.
very good advice
I don't usually comment, but I felt the necessity to do it haha. As a Mexican woman, I can not forgive the romanticization of the cartels, we literally live in a constant war (people in Mexico die in the same amount as people from countries at war). I read some parts of the book, and it was also horrible to see the disinformation of the way the narcos work, it is not like the mafias people see on TV or in other countries, in Mexico they do not have morals, families or harmony, there is only hate, blood and horror. Using "Adelita" as a victim of her family erases the reality of her and her family being the villains, it is their fault that our country is literally in pieces.
Also, I find it disrespectful to use the name that we use to refer to the women who fought in the revolution against the corrupt government and society, and this "Adelita" being named like that is a mockery against our culture.
We have enough from our own culture praising the narcos, we do not need the foreign to see it as a kink or something cool. The war between groups is real, but Adelita saying that she can not even touch the street without something happening to her is a lie, the common women from Mexico are the ones who can not touch the street without the risk of being a victim of feminicidio, trafficking or even turning them into killers (sicarias). Not the fully protected by the police, government, and cartel people woman.
I just felt so angry reading that one of the main characters is part of the villains in real life, but she is treated as a victim. Idk, it is so hard to live in this narco-state that kills our society day by day, and people from outside think it can be used as a matter of fiction without the proper information.
Sorry for the intensity, but I live in a country where you could be eating in a restaurant and be part of the killing in plain sight of the day of a person, and each member of those groups is guilty, even the "pretty Adelita" that lives in the expenses of the lives of Mexican people.
Well said.
Amén! Hearing anyone correlate a frigging cartel member with oppressed groups makes me feel like I am trapped in a stupid(er) alternate reality from which I really want to escape 🤮
This reality is why people romanticizing the mafia and the cartel makes me want to scream. Can't these people just make up fictional organizations to giggle at, instead of real horrifiying institutions?
1:20 reminds me of that one tiktok by a girl who was of mixed race and she said something along the lines of "i would love to experience an enemies to lovers arc in my life but it would probably consist of the guy being heavily racist" 💀
Nooooooo but it's true 💀
That book that has a nazi and a jewish prisoner falling in love..... And the sign of them finding a middle ground..... Is for them to convert to christianity, completely ignoring that the nazis were already christians, and that the Jewish woman has to actually convert as though her "hate" was tied to judaism, and not the discrimination she faced. Like..... I just don't even have the words
Exactly. Pretty sure there's a lot of misinformation floating around, especially in Christian spaces, that the Nazis were atheist. But they were unabashedly Christian.
The Nazis talked A LOT about Christianity, and the crusades being a big motivator for them in their speeches and propaganda. It was NOT AT ALL subtle.
I think a lot of teachers, public and private, are just uncomfortable teaching that part of history because it makes their religion look terrible. Not to mention risking the ire of conservative parents if a child brings it up at home. But it NEEDS to be taught. Otherwise, you get idiots like many modern racists and antisemites who insist it's not *themselves* who are the nazis, but the [gay/trans/nonreligious/people of other religions/etc] who are the "REAL" Nazis because, "the Nazis were obviously atheist because no Christian would ever be the bad guys. Christianity is the source of ALL morality!" "So it must be those icky liberal folks who "go against god" who are the real Nazis!" 🙄
Idk where that awful rumor started, but it is deeply entrenched in many Christian spaces. Despite the fact it takes 5 seconds to google! 😡
RIGHT. my jaw dropped and it makes me terrified of how this author wrote their jewish characters in this book. she has to cut ties with her religion and culture that is already under threat of extinction by the hate group her man was PART OFFFF??? like the forceful conversion of jewish people was part of the genocide! its insane!!
Holy hell, that's awful
🤮 honestly this makes the racist ass kkk/cartel princess book seem tame lol
It's also super gross considering the fact that if you look at the history of Jewish persecution, the root cause for that persecution in the first place was because they didn't convert.
I think its also interesting how in nearly all these examples, it's the man who is racist and needs help from the woman to unlearn his beliefs, sorta like a really bad "I can fix him" trope
YUP
I feel like it's worse than ordinary "I can fix him" because suddenly it's "I, his victim, have an obligation to fix him"
someone saying “british people are the most welcoming people” with their WHOLE chest is fucking insane i had to pause the video just to stare into the distance
"British ppl are the most welcoming" - Me after my lobotomy
Literally, we didn't get the nickname terf island for no reason. 😭😭😭 I hate it here.
One of my fave responses to the “freedom of speech” argument in situations like this is actually a tweet from Justin McElroy: “the first amendment protects you from the government, it does not protect you from the Justin”. Being pretty hard anti-censorship myself it’s wonderful reminder that just as you say they’re not banned from writing it, we’re not banned from putting them on blast for it.
The thing that is crazy is that there are so many of these white supremacist books, but it takes fighting tooth and nail to be a person of color and get published. Then get somebody to believe in your book enough to push for your book to be advertised or on best seller lists.
TRUUUUUU THATS THE WILD PART
@@withcindyhey cindy another bool that does the concept of someone unlearning their racism after falling in love with a woman of colour is the Lies we Tell Ourselves by Robin Talley. It is also a sapphic romance, abd she explores homophobia as well. But its realky good, sje does her research really well and it isnt romanticised. If you read it it would be a good book to bring attention to on your channel as an example of how to do these kind of books correctly.
It's almost like the publishers are racist and don't want black authors books getting out into the world. Wait a minute-
People would really publish anything they shat out from the toilet, yet we're still waiting for Cindy's book for more than 3 years.
JASKDJKLSAJDKLSJKDSAJ the way i've been procrastinating writing the epilogue for over a month...
You're at the epilogue? Congratulations!
Congratulations 👏
Cindy,you are hella right.A lot of literature has a white supremacy problem and I'm glad there are more discussions calling it out.
it's so insidious that many ppl don't notice!
Lol Cindy you don’t need a redemption arc, you need a “winning the lottery” arc!
@@withcindy I don’t think that people don’t notice, but that a lot of people see a book in the romance section with the KKK and NOPE the fuck away. Ironically, videos dedicated to discussing one or two books is a lot of free press for books like this, and will result in increased sales and library rentals (which still makes the author money), which rewards the author. Not all the people who buy/borrow will be supporters of the concept, but it doesn’t matter if some is a supporter or if they’re reading to see if it really is that bad-it’s still money to the author.
When it comes to shit like Colleen Hoover, she made her own self a household name and openly talking about her will not do much, but people like…what’s the name of the author in this video again? It just serves to make her name more known.
@@NoelleTakestheSky i kind of agree, not that i see it as necessarily bad to talk about these authors when you measure the importance of bringing light to this subject and the free publicity thing, but when it comes to far more known people in the industry it hardly matters, but when you are introducing a mostly unknown author into the scene it puts things into perspective. It's like the reaction youtubers rule of only responding to channels bigger than themselves and never smaller ones, because than you're just giving them a free stage.
Also, tiktok groups and niche communities make for such a ludicrous percentage of people that although they serve for publicity and ads, your average run of the mill local will probably not care to read books with such tabu and inflammatory topic on their free time just because it was on the popular online section of the bookstore. Idk, in the stage of notoriety, the most Cindy is doing is responding to the echo of the online chamber that is booktok, and i don't mean this in a bad way, i just think those types of authors will hit their desired public with or without influencers and youtubers. They always have, and always will, so i think "platforming" or showcasing them is a worth cost to displaying very valid criticisms over their work and antics.
When you really think about it it's insane how many books, movies and even tv shows pull the 'You can just fuck away bigotry' trope and it's always made by people who know how bad discrimination can be in theory, but still view decades of constant discrimination and oppression as nothing more than something you can maturely agree to disagree on and expect to be hailed as if they just brought about world peace with their Wattpad romance
I knew romance had a major role diversity problem, as this isn’t the first racist book to come under fire. But the fact that concepts in this vein are so ubiquitous that we had two controversies within a month, this and a book deal announcement for a book about a white woman obsessing over a Black nanny, is what really blew my mind. Not to mention Goodreads coming and reminding us how white mainstream romance is, with a book featuring a Black lead by a white author getting nominated as opposed to some of the truly stunning books that came out from Black authors this year.
i did not hear about that book deal announcement wtf. what is the book called?
@@withcindy it’s since been deleted from Twitter/X, but it’s called Greenwich by Kate Broad.
I was just thinking of that book too. I was scrolling thru the comments and quote retweets on it and every single person that praised her for the book was white, and loads of black (and some nonblack) people were pointing out how racist the premise was. Like, did that not raise any red flags for her? She said she was trying to tell a story about prejudice and racism or whatever but the only people who approved of it were white people. Like... dude.
I had no idea about the Goodreads Award Nominee! Which book was it? I tried to figure it out by reading the synopses, but I can't tell which book has a Black character.
@@monster-enthusiast not to mention the people who dared speak up (mostly BIPOC) getting attacked for “bullying” the author (Kate wasn’t bullied but the critics absolutely were). I found a vile article written in response to this situation where the piece’s writer punches down on one critic in particular, an Asian aroace author who has a debut coming out next year. I swear, do these people think before they speak or type? How do you put so much vitriol into the world and have the audacity to accuse *others* of being bullies in response?
I’m adopted from South Korea by yte parents and the amount of times they just don’t think about things because they don’t have to is sad. My sister and mom were teachers and I had to tell them “hey, don’t make the Asian kid speak ‘their language’ in front of the class like they’re a fucking side show,” and they got angry at me lmao. Or they’ll say “you’re only saying this because you like to argue” whenever I disagree about something racist they do. The worst thing about it is that I know they use me as a crutch to justify the ignorant shit they say
im so sorry u have to deal with that :(
As a Mexican woman, there’s nothing worse than experiencing the same old stereotypes over and over again. I love being nothing more than an exotic spicy latine who sells drugs.
I just genuinely want to know why someone read that description and went mmmm racism, let me read it. Since when is racism a kink? It’s truly baffling.
Once again, thank you for your emotional labor.
Race play has been a thing for a long time and a lot of it borders on genuinely hateful
still watching the video but "using dark romance as a trojan horse" is honestly SUCH a good way to phrase the issue(s)
it's a very easy way to terminate critique by not challenging why are these stories being written
@@withcindy You should make a video about Stephen king's usage of horror to write graphic CP. He's getting away with it too frequently
The fact that this video came out right when the Goodreads choice awards nominees came out, and the romance category has one author of color, really drives your point home.
wish they had posted the nominees sooner so i could have exposed them in this video smh!!
@@withcindythe new “Romantasy” category wasn’t much better with three authors of color, and considering one of the white authors had THREE books on the list, there was definitely room for more diversity.
Not exactly on the subject, but aren’t Goodreads Choice Awards reliably unreliable when it comes to choosing good novels?
Haven’t both Sarah J. Mass. and the MAGA queen and writer of abusive “romances” Jamie McGuire won some of them?
@@haggisait’s not about the books being good but lacking diversity, both in race but also sexuality. Goodreads has been called out year after year for this but they still choose straight, white authors to uplift and it’s bullshit.
Aren’t they chosen by statistics?
The term "inspirational" in the publishing industry is usually just another way of saying "Christian." The bookstore I worked at had a section called "inspirational living" which was just Christian memoirs & self-help, so I think inspirational romance is probably just Christian romance. They probably call it that as a marketing move so that they can trick more people into reading them without turning off people who would otherwise probably not be interested.
I guess the only way to be inspirational is to be Christian lol
It absolutely is. People have tried getting their Muslim or Jewish religious stories into contests and the reactions are always completely bonkers.
The part that gets me is that so many of these books’ issues could be fixed by making one change: have the character leave the hate group before meeting the love interest.
You can still have development on the character’s end as they’re dealing with unlearning the hate that they have been living with, losing family and/or friends, etc. But them making the choice to step away is a decision on their part and not pushed by someone that they had been oppressing.
It would also make an interesting conflict if the other person learned about their background/history and how that would affect the relationship
Yes! I was thinking that the whole video!!
Earth and High Heaven kind of does this! I say "kind of" bc Erica (a white Anglo) is never actively racist or antisemitic, she just has a racist dad and, despite being progressive herself, makes herself unlearn a lot of uncomfortable things she's internalized. Marc (her Jewish love interest) gets to talk openly about the systemic hatred he's faced living and working in Canada, and while he's showing Erica how bad it gets for him, you never get the impression that she's just now learning that Jews are people.
It's not a perfect book, but for something published in 1944 that still addresses North American antisemitism, it's phenomenal.
This also brings up something I've seen in real-life with bigots and hateful people; they don't actually change their beliefs when they find themselves attracted outside their race. They often cling to their beliefs, insisting that their bigotry is correct and justified but their partner is a rare exception. H.P. Lovecraft is an example; he was rabidly against basically everyone who was even slightly different from himself, married a Jewish woman, and still went on antisemitic tirades in her presence.
Any variation on these "bigot's redemption" type of plots that take place in real life would need to seriously examine the ideologies that are espoused by the characters and how low-key pervasive they are in mainstream society. Otherwise the bigotry just becomes window dressing for a hollow feel-good story where a white author reaffirms the moral superiority of white people to their white audience.
Recently I've been noticing a TON of covert nazi apologism in entertainment -- not just books but also movies about "not so bad" hitler youth members, redeemed wehrmacht soldiers, etc. I think it's dangerous and suspicious and I'm glad you're pointing this out because someone needs to. Also, I think something about the enemies-to-lovers obsession is causing authors to just mash together the most hostile groups of people they can think of and trying to redeem them through romance. I think it doesn't really work a lot but booktok-popular books need to be reduced to snappy summaries and enemies-to-lovers is a surefire way to jump on a trend. As someone who never really read an enemies-to-lovers work I enjoyed, I am excited for this trend to die lol
It IS sus bc of how insidious it is. Because who is this actually benefitting? Not POC that's for sure
The “not so bad hitler youth members” thing drives me crazy because, while there were some who were misled or forced, the focus is always on redeeming someone who, in some cases, might be victims themselves, when there’s a damned good story that can be had in showing that the regime above them is so evil to its core that it’s not above abusing their own soldiers, threatening to kill the families of their own soldiers, threatening to torture then too if they don’t do XYZ. That sort of story could highlight how deep the evil runs in the very core of those in power. There were Black overseers who would whip other slaves, but no one in their right minds would blame that overseer when we know the penalty could have been exceedingly harsh. We wouldn’t treat a story about a person in that situation as a romantic redemption of that person-it wouldn’t be a romance at all, and any redemption for any harm that that person was forced to cause would come second to somehow getting that person the hell away from the institution above them that has so much power that they can strip free will from people who wouldn’t freely and openly participate.
But being able to write like this takes an exceptionally high level of skill and understanding, something I admit I don’t have (which is why I won’t even try), and something like the authors discussed in this video definitely don’t have. And it really won’t work to have it be an enemies-to-lovers story.
Never underestimate how skilled, patient and even sometimes subtle the fascist propaganda machine is and how it starts to permeate every corner of society, from political commentary channels to romance novels.
@@haggisaIs it possible that authors or their agents are paying BookTokers to promote their stories and not telling anyone? HBO Max already got caught hiring people to attack critics on Twitter and we know some authors have faked their numbers to become New York Times bestsellers. I wouldn't be shocked if money is exchanging hands in this case too. 🤔
Because not all of them were bad duh. Im tired of pretending the Allie’s were all good guys when we were just as awful back then
Every time Cindy says the words "White prince", I feel my soul get punched.
for me it's "cartel princess" 💀as a Latina it hurts my soul
I'm sorry but good cooch will never make an oppressor suddenly wake up and decide, "oh wow, I should probably stop oppressing people all the time. She's changed me with her magic snatch." Like, the stories that prop up this sentiment need to be tossed in the garbage because they are not realistic.
Especially since throughout history, white men engaged in sexual relationships with oppressed people while continuing to use their oppression as leverage against them. Like so many slave owners forced women to have sex with them and they didn't become not-racist when they started doing that...
LMAOOOO ur so right. Besides, people who right those sorts of plots are so out of touch they don’t even realize that a majority of these super racist yt dudes ALREADY fetishize poc women’s/Afab’s bodies.
Right? Have romance authors ever heard of colonisation and chattel slavery?!
😭😭😭😭
Fr!! I hated that so much, he stopped being racist magically because the snatch was too good???😑 like be fr
Enemies to lovers trope can work only if there was a desire to understand and help the other party and not the hate that turns to passionate desire crap 🤢
Looking carefully, the male love interests in these kinds of books are actually more terrifying than famous villains like Hannibal Lecter, Darth Vader or Joker.
I think the male leads in this “dark romance”, 50 shades, After, 365 days and Colleen Hoover books deserve a tier list video, like a rogues gallery.
Maybe I'll make a tier list of all the bad love interests I read this year lol
@@withcindy At least Anakin and Hannibal have some redeeming qualities. Joker is fun to watch. The dark romance male leads have zero redeeming quality and aren’t fun to read at all.
@@nont18411and I think it’s also the fact that they are not directly based on any real hate groups/people
@@nont18411 Yeah, I’d much rather spend time inside the mind of Lecter, an odd and unique individual, than a mundane abuser like Christian Gray. Because there are Christian Grays everywhere. In every city, town and village. And they continue to thrive and be excused by society at large. No-one pretends Lecter is an inspirational hero.
@@haggisa Not to mention how Lecter hypnotized a guy into killing himself after a guy rudely masturbated and came on Starling’s face. Lecter is a true gentleman here.
Way back when I was a Christian teenager, there was a funny little phrase that the leaders would bring up known as "missionary dating." It's suppose to describe a Christian dating a non-Christian so they can be "saved," but it was mainly used to deter the kids from dating non-Christian kids for fear that they would stop being a Christian because of the non-Christian's influence. Whenever I hear discussions about someone saving someone through the power of love (or good cooch), I'm reminded of this phrase. Also while writing this comment, I realized just how demeaning and awful it sounds. Like do you need to control children so badly they can't even have non-Christian relationships without an ulterior motive for Christianity?
This reminds me of the "flirty fishing" thing from a certain Christian cult
because dating should one day lead to marriage and mixed-faith marriages bring problems in-faith-education for the prospective grandchildren, so it is discouraged - every community which wishes to survive into future discourages "dating outside" - except for those who automatically count all associated to them as "their own"... e.g. anyone born to a Muslim father is traditionally counted a Muslim - as such Muslim men are usually allowed "dating out", while Muslim women traditionally are not...
@@Chociewitka yh Abrahamic religions really encourage authoritative, mysoginistic and controlling behaviour
I don't get your point. You're talking about romantic relationships specifically, which are taken seriously. You are letting someone into your heart, and you are thinking of them as a potential life partner one day. That's how Christian dating works. If you marry a non-Christian, you are going to have problems with your beliefs. There will be no God in that relationship. So of course they'd deter it. It's different if you don't want to be a Christian, in which case none of this advice applies to you, but if you have in fact chosen to be one this should be fine. I don't think you really can criticize it if you aren't one, cause it just isn't your chosen lifestyle. If you are taking issue with forcing kids to be Christian and "missionary date" as the only way for them to date people they like then I get it.
Okay, having read this comment again, I think what you meant is that the CHURCH puts that idea in their minds. As a personal choice, if a Christian teen likes someone who isn't Christian, there's nothing wrong with trying to introduce them to the faith (whether they accept or not should be completely up to them though). Kids who are brought up Christian only do that because of the community for their approval, which isn't okay. It should be done because of personal values. You also seem to imply that people would only want to become Christian by manipulating them through the relationship, which I find to be very incorrect. I know people who've risked death and been cut off from their family by becoming Christian and marrying a Christian partner, and in my opinion that requires strong faith, and it can't be done through any amount of "good cooch".
The craziest thing is the British saying they’re not racist and welcoming in the year of our lord 2023 post-Megan Markle
They’re very welcoming…unless you’re a brown person protesting the slaughter of Palestinians. Or a trans person asking for equal rights.
It's also a shame that in romance we often have to read so many stereotypes about couples and gender. Why does every male main love interest needs a sixpack? And why we never got to know what happens after they marry or get together? Because many interesting problems are going to arise after they become a couple. That's actually the challenging part of a relationship.
Also it's funny that most of the books in this genre are actually written by women. There are just a few that are written by a man.
the way most media portrays romantic relationships is still very narrow, despite the vast diversity of humans and relationships out there
Yesss I love romance, even very formulaic romance, but I am so sick of super narrow gender expressions and roles. That’s one reason I ventured into BL, even though I knew it wasn’t good representation and somehow a lot of it still has strict gender roles? Now I’ve kind of given up on the romance genre and I just look for good romance inside other genres, like fantasy and sci fi.
I do see a lot of diverse YA romance coming out at my job, but I’m not big into YA stuff anymore. For the teens’ sakes, I hope some of it is good.
We usually don’t find out about their lives post-marriage since married life isn’t so interesting. Those books are going to be slice-of-life books, and believe me, arguing over who was supposed to drive the kid to school isn’t an interesting problem. The “interesting” problems are more likely to be things like adultery. I’m co-writing a series where we follow different characters, and so do see what happens post marriage-due to the specific genre, there are issues that arise, though not relationship issues.
The reason main male love interests tend fo be ripped is the fantasy element of it. If you were single and into men, and you met a man who was wonderful, BUT! his physical appearance is a blank slate, a book without a cover, and you were told that you got to decide the appearance of this man who is wonderful inside, so kind and generous and caring and funny…he just doesn’t have an exterior and won’t unless you design one…and “I don’t care” is equivalent to nothing…chance are good that you’d design him to be physically fit, and physically fit men tend to have more visible muscle.
It’s also why female love interests tend to be thing and curvy and beautiful-we’re reading romance, not women’s lit. Women’s lit is where you’re going to find the issues that come with being outside to ostensible ideal since that’s the genre that can deal with them. Romance is supposed to be centered on the romantic plot, which means removing elements that draw attention from it. If a person’s size or stature is relevant to the romance itself, then yeah, it’ll be added. But if it’s not, then any extra issues will be removed. This is also why characters can work more or less in theory, but somehow afford a sprawling apartment in a pricy city. Not relevant to the romantic plot. Nix it.
Honestly, I don’t read much romance anymore due to the narrow scope of the genre. I know that there’s this whole other genre-women’s lit-where I can go.
Because it's typically written from a woman's fantasy pov. Rich strong ceo and a normal girl. It's made to easily be able to put yourself in their shoes.
Like other people mentioned, it does come down to romance being largely wish fulfilment fantasy, however I think more and more authors try to break out of all those traditional tropes. Lorelei James has a great series “Blacktop Cowboys”, in which male and female protagonists are regular people with regular jobs and struggles, people who aren’t fantastic in bed from the first scene, but have to learn how to work out what gets their partner going and what doesn’t by trial and error, men who make mistakes in very mundane ways that aren’t then magically fixed by one grand gestures etc.
Eve Dangerfield is another writer, whose male heroes aren’t perfect and whose female characters are fully formed, complex women, that make note of or call out sexism and misogyny in clear ways without being preachy. She also has a novel about a female domme, who starts an affair with a himbo-ish guy, who had been an asshole to her months prior. And the greet trope in her work is the male characters, who have serious emotional stuff to work through always go to the therapy for it without burdening the heroines, instead of the heroines deciding their love will fix them uwu.
But you’re right, the most popular works are still the most formulaic, if not outright offensive…sigh.
Before even watching the video, I can say that there is undeniably a white supremacy problem in romance. As someone who reads gay romances, it is very rare that any of the protagonists are anything but explicitly white, and any nonwhite characters that do exist are almost always limited to fulfilling a very limited range of extremely tired and/or offensive tropes (eg the magical minority)
i also saw today the nominations for goodreads best romances of this year and they were all white lol
This is why if there is any queer media without queers of colour in the maincast I am out especially if it centers on some white gay melodramatic mess.
i was just thinking about this yesterday. queer books will always have ONE white character in the main couple at least. i hardly ever see any between two black men or two asian women or something (can only think of one but that’s a fantasy novel, so idk if it counts).
@@tsuki3752are you referring to he who became the sun? If not, would you share?
This is really interesting to me because there’s a whole separate community of East Asian gay romance (BL or yaoi) that has its own problem with fetishization of “feminine” looking EA men. It’s not exactly mainstream, but has gained a huge audience over the past couple of decades, especially among young women. Wonder what the overlap is
my question is why do these primarily white (or all) authors think that this is their story to tell? They’re not the victims of these hate groups so what right to they have to redeem and romanticize these men? As a latine it makes me so angry that this British author can use a Mexican character to fulfill this weird forbidden romance when she has 0 idea what it’s like to actually be a victim of racial discrimination
I said the same shit like it’s the arrogance for me and the delusion that they think they are educated enough in social and historical matters with us POC and our suffering to think they can write this it’s giving trauma porn.
Exactly! Not to mention all the reviews praising the book. A lot of them seemed to be pale colored. Which just drives it more for me, like you don’t see it an issue because you aren’t being affected. To you it’s just a spicy novel but to others it’s a nightmare!
Yeah...this is maybe why serious "enemies to lovers" should stay in fantasy! Because it's one thing if your love interest is a wizard who hates elves, or whatever. But it hits differently (that is: badly!) if he's a member of a real life hate group that has murdered actual humans.
Even in fantasy it mirrors real life too often
Naw fr. I think games like Dragon Age handled it pretty well. In DA2 you can be a mage who romances this dude who hates magic (but y'know he has a complicated past) and in DAI your character as a mage can romance a Templar (people who actively fight against magic) cause he has character growth and overcoming what he's been taught as a Templar.
But trying to write something like this? Omg. I can't believe they actually did it. It would have been so easy to throw it into fantasy with two warring kingdoms. Like wut. 😮
yeah, i second this
I loved Six of Crows but like... please stay away from the actual nazis with romance? please? I'm from germany and in serious pain rn
As a Latina, I am ALWAYS wary of white people who write about my culture and people.
This comment will be edited as I watch the video. It’s long so I’m sure I’ll have a lot to say 😂
Author may be a great writer but why did they even write a story that should never have been written to begin with?
The Mexican community is more than being Mexican for the sake of the story, like Oh look at me I’m Mexican we can’t be together… because I’m Mexican race! Mexican is not a race… 😂I’m Dominican Puerto Rican but the cartel exists in literally EVERY dark Latinx story I’ve ever seen. Why do white people think that all cartels exist in every corner of Latin America and the Caribbean… so annoying. I’m sick of it
And I agree with all of your points. The evils of the holocaust, the KKK, the Spanish colonialization in Latin America, should never be romanticized. The Taínos were slaughtered in a mass genocide but look here’s a wonderful romance about the Taino woman and her oppressor! But look, he changed! He is not racist anymore ugh
i look forward to hearing ur reactions to the author's attempt at writing the mexican main character LOL
"Mexican" or "Latino" is not a race...but it is true the KKK would not care about that! I mean, for one thing, they ALSO hate Catholics, and would probably assume that all Mexicans are Catholic (also incorrect, but...that's the ignorance!)
My dad is a white Cuban (most of our ancestors came from Spain), but he was definitely not seen that way when he moved to the southern US! He's got pretty tightly curled hair and a permanent tan, and used to get quite nervous if he had to drive in rural areas down there in the 1970s, especially if there was a white woman in the car. And my mom's parents were also...not welcoming. In a racist way. Heck, even to this day...he and his Colombian wife (whose hair is blonder than either of ours) bought a house in a then-all-white neighborhood in Michigan, and the sellers WOULDN'T BE IN THE SAME ROOM.
Anyway, maybe getting into some of THAT nuance would be interesting, but cartel this and cartel that is both racist in itself and boring as hell.
Freedom of speech is not freedom of consequences. Authors are more than welcome to write whatever story they want, but that doesn't mean they can be shielded from criticism because the story they wrote is fiction or "part of their free speech." Definitely don't like that some people are crying "leave dark romance alone" like a "get out of jail free" card.
Exactly. It is freedom from government intervention. That's it.
the number of agents I’ve seen asking for an Isr*ali/Palestinian romance is not zero 🙃
WHAT!?!?
NO
There was a very successful (in israel ofc) adaptation of romeo and juliet where it is between israelis and palestinians…like that’s definitely comparable to the warring families in Verona /s
TGATS FUCKING DISGUSTING EWWW
Afro Latina here… wild how these concepts get out there. It’s wild the excuses ppl make for despicable things especially when they don’t affect them.
That one person: "Racism is my kink!"
Like, what...? Did they just use the wrong word? Did they misunderstand the discussion? Is it REALLY their kink??? Like wtf happened there.
Thanks for the discussion Cindy! These types of books are just.. ugh. I'm not super against them but it always depends on how they're writing the characters and portraying the issues (I ttink it was Purple Hearts that basically brushed everything under the rug- and it was the liberal woman who changed herself for him). I'm not into Dark Romance anyway, so I'm wondering if I just don't "Get it".
I'm a black girl and I often see people misunderstand racism even in fantasy settings, so I don't trust em with this either. At least fantasy makes me feel much more removed from reality, but even those don't work at times.
Racial degradation can actually be a kink in safe-sane-and-consensual circumstances. Emotional pain can push the same buttons as physical pain, and some people are extreme masochists, so something so inflammatory hits their buttons. Not their fault and it doesn't mean they're actually racist in regular life. This, however, doesn't sound like a case of that.
@@chelonianmobileI can understand that! No problem with it if it's something safe and consensual. But yeah, this doesn't seem to be the case haha
Yeah to say that criticisms for this book are kink shaming is really not accurate and inadvertently just raises more questions cuz.... LOL
Just because it’s a kink doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be shamed. Yes some people like to be degraded on their race in sexual situations but we should be asking ourselves why and not encouraging that kind of deviant behaviour.
@@itslonda4157oh yeah shame always works and definitely doesn’t just lead to more problems
I've also noticed how a basically any love triangle ends with the girl choosing the white boy over the brown boy (very important that he is only brown, not a darker black, it seems), like in To All The Boys or Twilight or The Kissing Booth (and some random unpopular, also kind of bad fantasy trilogy i read as a kid, where she chooses the traumatized ice prince over the southern fire boy), and I'm sure there are MANY more examples.
THANK YOU. people don't call this out enough
What was the ice prince books name? Not because im going to read it but I also distinctly remember reading or watching a cartoon with something like that. Or was it on Wattpad I don’t remember…
@@ophelie2620 ummm like arcus or argus or something like that. The fire boy was called Kay or something along the lines. And i totally forgot her name, because she was severely lacking a personality i think
@@paularoth4915 now I realized I didn’t read it at all. It was a children’s anime about a witch crushing over an evil blonde boy I guess and there was twins one of them falling for her. Now thinking about this, it actually sounds a lot like Ouran High School Host Club and a zutara fanfic I might read on Wattpad.
5:38
“A love that should never have been”
You are correct dear author and I think we’d all be glad if you kept it that way 👍
This conversation reminds me so much of the “why are there so many confederate vampires” convo / vid & it’s discussion regarding southern lost cause propaganda. It’s not exactly the same, but it stems from a similar problem
At this point I can’t help but insist that Dan Olson’s Fifty Shades trilogy videos are mandatory viewing. Truly a must watch and it really helped me crystalize my feelings on this sort of stuff. It’s such a good entry point for understanding how even taboo subjects can be handled ethically. His comparison between 50 shades vs. lady killer in a bind is excellent. Ymmv on lady killer, but at the very least intends for you to think critically about it’s content. Imo I think framing is always more important than the content itself.
As a poc I tend to be pretty disgusted with these kinds of racist/poc or liberal/confederate romances not on principe but because they’re so reductive, & it’s clear their energy is placed way more into redeeming the racist than anything else. The framing is escapist, it’s “love conquers all”. It’s not a story, it’s selling you something. it’s selling an escapist easy solution to systemic complex problems. The framing is “meeting in the middle” & “compromise” & I reject the idea of meeting on a middle ground between “I just want to survive” & “I wish people like you didn’t exist”. On a subjective level, I just have a hard buy-in for the love interests of color, they just don’t feel like real people because they so happily endure whatever is thrown at them in the name of “opposites attract” or “enemies to lovers”.
this is why i have a problem with the less extreme examples of these books, like the contemporary romances between a liberal and conservative where they learn more about each other, "understand" each other better, and meet in the middle. to promote a centrist message is to still promote white supremacy, homophobia, etc because it tolerates (and even forgives) those harmful views without actually challenging them. their version of a happily ever after is to avoid doing the hard work of dismantling these structural problems and instead saying "agree to disagree! we still love each other!"
@@withcindy true! I’m not saying the couple has to solve racism but these kids of stories fall into two camps that I think are fall flat in different ways. 1) they make no changes, agree to “compromise”, & go agree to disagree while the unspoken rule is that. What’s really going on is that the liberal capitulates to the conservative while the conservative makes no changes (i.e. Purple Hearts). Or 2) the liberal has to do all this unbalanced labour just to get the conservative to acknowledge their humanity! Like. That just doesn’t feel real to me. I’m not saying cut everyone out of your life, conversation can be incredibly helpful to actually change ppl’s perspective, but all that work for a boyfriend????? No thank you lol
The haircut looks amazing omg, Cindy’s in her glowup era
this year has been such a flop for me, i need a glowup desperately
You’re so real for that title, at this point it can be the most mediocre book ever I’ll sprint to read it if it has a poc main character or love interest 😭
People be acting like there’s so much diversity but in reality it’s going backwards.
Edit: Can we actually talk about the link between white women’s obsession with extreme dark romance?
it is def not remiss upon me that majority of readers of dark romance are white women lol
I agree 100%, and that link is definitely real lol
They’re not oppressed enough irl so they gotta fantasize about oppression in fiction
man i do not understand why people actually enjoy “dark romance”
@@lapvona I think I might be operating with a dif definition. Im Latina and like dark fantasy and dark romance. Or maybe I just like dark fantasy with romance. Cuz to me a dark romance usually means a dark fantasy story with monsters and ghouls and there’s romance in it between two badasses who may or may not like each other at first and team up to kill gods or whatever
She wrote 7 damn books then apologized ??? PLEASE 😂
I swear the ghetto of it 🙄🤣
🎶 Every kiss begins with K...KK 🎶 No but seriously as a black woman Im so tired 🤬
I think it is the power imbalance is what makes it icky. Like redemption is what we want. We WANT people to grow and change. But it's always the victim "fixing" them. The victim has that burden. Totally agree.
We appreciate your insights. Indeed white supremacy seems to be a rapid issue, not just in literature.
truuu, it's pretty much everywhere
What really got me kind of livid about this book isn't even its horrible premise, but rather the fact that an actual publisher green-lighted it 😵 The industry is truly in shambles, it seems
Thank you for an informative video, Cindy! I really appreciate you starting this important discussion
I think the series was self published? But there are many questionable books w these dynamics that are traditionally published
Another beef I have with these types of stories is that they often go for some kind of "both sides meet in the middle" resolution. When one side is very unambiguously wrong and the other is just trying to exist. Babes, what's "the middle" supposed to be here? Just a bit of racism? Get off my lawn!
Holy shit i am so shocked about the concentration camp romance. I cant believe someone wrote this. And then published this. And people read it and nominated it? WTF?
And that there are so many books in the german-soldier-genre? There IS a german-soldier-genre??
Coming from germany, this is unbelievable. I cant
Not just a German soldier genre but a German soldier ROMANCE
same here, I'm also from Germany and this makes me double down on my opinion every country should have history classes like Germany. I have my problems with it but at least i don't think the concentration camp romance would have gotten published over here...
@@mer_acle8101I’m American, my grandmother was born in West Germany to Transylvanian war refugees; I was the only one in most of my high school classes that took German. I once had to explain to my duel-credit history of Western Civilization class why “the work will set you free” was a bad slogan to put on a T-shirt. One time in college I had to explain what the night of broken glass was. No wonder so many people deny the Holocaust, nobody teaches about it!
@@staralchemist129 yeah that's so insane
I had the holocaust taught in History I think three separate times, plus visiting a concentration camp, plus like ten different museum excursions, bc Germany takes it so seriously, and then there's America being like what do you mean History lessons, having people with an education ask Germans whether they met H!tler in person won't make anyone look uninformed XD
As a Jewish woman, I cringed so hard when you mentioned the book where the Jewish girl converts to Christianity... wtaf. I think that what baffles me the most, is that these authors choose to make this the story they want to tell to the world and in such a romanticizing shallow way. They could have written about ANYTHING and yet they CHOOSE to go for 'person from a minoiry/poc falls for person from a hategroup/army that commits genocide'. Just, why? Why is it that these writers look at these white supremasicts just go 'oh yeah that's what I want my love interest to be like'. I'm sorry but their wa of thinking is so shallow that I'm actually concerned. Stop, get help. (*I'm mostly talking about the ones who clearly do it without any nuance, depth, commentary, but these stories always make me feel uncomfortable either way)
fr that was the worst twist imaginable to an already awful premise
Yes, I was absolutely shook at that too. it's so gross 🤢
i'm anti-censorship and a huge fan of dark romance myself (i have a few kinks, what can you do)
but you can't really overlook the implications of a white woman writing a story where uber racism is redeemed bc "love sees no color"
this is a white woman downplaying the severity of racism and, intentionally or not, putting the weight of changing racist minds on the back of POC's ability to be desirable and pleasant (WOC on the case of her book)
I think that these books, beside the reinforcements that the victims will teach the male leads how to love and that their love conquers everything (even hate), is that it puts the woman (usually) in a place that it's her job to mold a grown man, to mother him into maturity and to show him right from wrong. This type of thinking also reinforces the idea that a man is bad because he hasn't found "the right woman" yet. Thus, he behaves badly. It's really worrying in a world where incels exist and are gaining traction.
It's astounding that the book about an actual clan member who gets with a racist Mexican stereotype has more interracial representation than like 90% of romance novels out there
The thing you mentioned about "Forced conversion" reminded me of the book called "The Crime and the Silence" by Anna Bikont. It's a non-fiction retelling and investigation of a massacre committed against Jewish people by their Polish neighbours. One of the people who Anna speaks to was a man whose wife was a young woman during the Holocaust, he had hidden her family but after a while he couldn't any more but he married her and she converted to Christianity. People don't talk a lot about the fact that even the Jewish people who managed to escape the Nazis were still heavily oppressed and converted for survival, which is a type of cultural genocide.
this video summarizes exactly why i'm always so wary of "enemies to lovers" - because a lot of authors will write a character who would hate crime their love interest without hesitation, and then put them in a relationship with someone they would normally want dead. they almost never do the work necessary to examine and deconstruct the character's behavior and properly "redeem" them.
Omg same, I'm consistently wary of enemies to lovers because many people do them so terribly that it actually becomes less then believable.
us: “we want more diversity in romances!!”
⚪️ authors: alright!
the diversity in question….
I went to her Instagram and went to the hangman hashtag and seeing how the only people reading this book were all white 😭
ofc, i would be very concerned for my POC sisters who would enjoy her books djskladksal
@@withcindy frfr. Seeing so many people say they reread the whole series and how all of a sudden the author realizes this is wrong and racist is crazy
i think a big contributor to this phenomenon is that in fantasy, or even historical fiction sometimes, it’s really easy to divide people with little to no nuance. you have the “purebloods” and the “muggles”, you have rivaling kingdoms, you have differences in social class that make your parents disapprove. and so it’s really easy to give characters a relatively harmless reason to both hate each other, have it forbidden to be together, and then to learn to overcome and bring the two worlds together. which is usually the pattern of enemies to lovers. however, when you attempt to bring this concept to the modern world, where interpersonal relationships are much more nuanced, the only instances of “forbidden” love are usually those in which one party is literally just in a hate group of some kind. which as we can see, does not work nearly as well💀💀 a kdrama called “snowdrop” comes to mind, a romance between a south korean student and a north korean spy, which failed miserably, being accused of romanticizing this delicate historical event
omg not a north korean spy....
@@withcindy If I may add some context, what's more insidious about Snowdrop is that the heroine, a naive liberal university student, hides a North Korean spy after mistaking him for an anti-government protester. From the 60s to the late 80s (the series is set in the late 80s btw), the South Korean government spy agencies NIS(National Intelligence Agency) and ANSP (Agency for National Security Planning) have framed numerous anti-government human rights activists as North Korean spies and kidnapped, jailed, tortured, even killed them. Sometimes they weren't even activists, just people working or studying abroad who got framed and kidnapped (the East Berlin Affair). So the implication that all dissentors were North Korean spies all along, and naive liberal college students were dumb enough to fall for them, is not just cringy but actively harmful and dangerous. It also didn't help that an ANSP agent character was described as an "honest, upright man" in the official website.
After that horror movie Purple Hearts came out and people cheered, this was sadly unshocking.
purple hearts walked so this book could run
will never not think about that quote pointing out that these "conservative x liberal meeting in the middle
That's another reason why I disagree with centrist narratives. If the conservative does not change their beliefs, then harm is still excused
This was actually a big controversy in Korea. There was this k-drama that featured a romance between a japanese soldier and a korean girl diring ww2, when japan had colonized korea. A kpop idol starred in it and i remember trying to tell all those lovely white stans that the people that were graped as 'comfort women' for japanese soldiers were still very much alive, and still fighting for justice. They told me it was 'just fiction'.
white people are seriously losers
which kdrama was it?
@@kavya71954white people are losers because the Koreans made a series that depicts a relationship between a Japanese soldier and a Korean? Wtf?
This is such a well detailed video. Proud of you to make this discussion even though it must be have been mentally fucking exhausting.
it does indeed take a while for me to gather my brain cells for this stuff
_"your love interest will literally hate crime you"_ absolutely sent me 💀
but fr this is when i once again thank cindy for doing the things i cannot emotionally afford to do bc i'd much rather hear a fellow gaysian woman (w a matching shaggy mullet nonetheless 😌💅) explain these things w care and nuance than read through the triggering dumpster fire quotes that are floating around book-ish socmed rn. it's wild to me that there are so many yt romance readers who are happy to argue w their twt/redditor moments on behalf (or against) people of color yet not censor the murder scenes jfc 🤦🏻♀
appreciated this discussion a lot!! co-opting happy endings for cishet yt subtext is huge across pop culture and it felt cathartic to hear you talk abt how it's perpetuated in the romance world. if you ever have the energy/time, would LOVE to hear more about romance publishing tea bc how on earth have i not heard abt this courtney milan business before?! such a mess and it'd be awesome to hear a critical cindy commentary (ft. coochie jokes 😂) someday! if it's to your interest ofc tho, have fun while getting your content bag too! tysm for this video
Tysm!! Omg we r shaggy mullet twinsies?! And I actually didn't find out about the Courtney Milan situation until I looked up other examples of these questionable books, which led me to the RWA awarding those books, which then led me to look up the RWA's background... It is def a whole story, and their diversity problem is unfortunately a reflection of how white the genre is. They closed in 2019 due to all the issues within their group
@@withcindy your hair is impeccably bleached better so ngl my fried waves can only dream to reach your levels of hair slay someday... 😔💅 but super glad you're loving the new style!!
:(( sucks to hear that the big romance writers' association is more similar to a suburban-soccer-mom mean girls group than a welcoming group for authors whether they're huge bookstore staples or upcoming indies. i only knew abt the RWA for their awards since i thought it was really cool that romance had its own version of the Hugo Award/ _insert book honors that are more micro than the Pulitzer but more macro than Goodreads since idk_ . aiya regardless it's clear there's a lot of messiness and i have all the more respect for BIPOC romance authors who're stuck in that hybrid-publishing limbo of working w big-box-companies and hustling their own online marketing. o7 hope you can inspire other readers to learn more abt how systemic prejudice affects the industries that fuel our book-ish sad girl escapes!
this is an extremely unpopular opinion but to be honest i hated the nina and matthias romance in six of crows. i understand redemption and changing and i think all of that is great, but having to read matthias's vile thoughts about nina and grisha in general made me physically sick. i personally am not against these stories of characters changing their views etc, but i absolutely detest when it happens while they are leaning on the back of the person they oppress as part of a close relationship. like i'm sorry, but being close friends with or dating someone who literally hates (or even wants to actively eradicate) people like you isn't a cute story of how "you can fix him", it's a fucking horror movie. to me anyway.
ur so valid 4 that tbh
I agree with you! While I really did enjoy their relationship the first time I read SoC, it's been strange thinking back on those books as I've gotten older. Strange how we're covertly fed these abusive(!) romance dynamics under the guise of enemies to lovers. I've always believed that enemies to lovers never works for people of colour (and for other marginalised groups, but I'm a person of colour specifically) BECAUSE of the power dynamic that often exists with the usually white love interest. Hard truth to swallow about SoC, I think... especially because the Fjerdans actively enslave(!!!) the Grisha...
Same with any relationship in Six of Crows they all had that weird power dynamic thing going on...
Asking the real questions with that title, Cindy
and we all know the answer
I love your preview intros! They’re always so unhinged and I respect it
to be fair, the source material made it easy to be unhinged
cindy, i just wanted to say how grateful i am that you’re discussing these things on your platform. insightful and hilarious content as always, plus the hair is slaying
You are so welcome! Always happy to profit off of messy white people
@@withcindy as you should!!
What’s crazy is how white authors can be allowed to write poc characters in racist settings like this, but god forbid an author of color can write a book with a poc protagonist. It’s insanse
When I tell you my eyes widened at that premise 😭
disappointed but not surprised at the premise
The more i see and hear about the shit like this happens and goes on within publishing the less stressed I get about my writing capabilities and the plots and characters I came up with honestly
Same here but you gotta remember the difference is since they are white and writing all these problematic books in a sense it gets harder for you to find your audience as they gobble up these other crappy books really as a writer myself these kind of books are problematic to many of us who want to have a decent plot within our work.
(Warning long)
I think this trope (Bigoted person falls in love with marginalized person and stops being bigoted) is because of how privileged people often can’t relate to marginalized people. For example a middle class person can imagine what it’s like to be rich, but not poor or homeless.
I also think it’s because privileged people like the idea of being forgiven for micro aggressions.
As a Colombian man who rarely reads romance at all, this shit doesn't surprise me at all. There are tons of romance where the oppressed has to do the work to "save" their oppressor. Colombian telenovelas are choke full of this shit (Mexican ones too) in our case the trope takes the form of a poor girl struggling to even survive "saving" the rich douche that would have hated her if she wasn't hot.
Side note: I hate that my brain immediately started trying to draft something on that same vein while using your points for nuance. I can't write romance for shit 😂😂
These types of stories basically just prop up the trope of "I can change him." and a lot of women eat that shit up. The worse the male love interest is, the more cathartic it feels when he falls in love with his opposite; when she makes him less terrible and saves him from himself. It's a fantasy, seen through the glow of rose-colored glasses, without any deep thought. I've read so many romances where the main plot is nothing but this and honestly, they get pretty boring (and formulaic) pretty quick. It's one of the reasons why I've evolved my tastes in romance books over the years, and I'm now more focused on romance stories starring minority characters and the nuances of their lives. I find that queer romances (for example) come off just more compelling and interesting, than the stereotypical het romances that I once read religiously.
I hate that trope because I like fictional men who already start off good for my escapism, otherwise if they suck I could just turn to real life for that lol
@@withcindy Exactly.
as someone who lives in the south and straight up had the KKK targeting school children for recruitment with candy flyers as a child, it is definitely NOT sexy 💀 what is wrong with these authors
Cindy, this is probably one of your best videos. Thank you so much for discussing this issue in the book and publishing industry. Personally, I think this trope is overdone and the "enemies to lovers" arc can really only work in fantasy imo, because when we use it in historical/contemporary genres, it always ends up being an oppressor being "saved" by someone in a marginalized group. That power imbalance is honestly gross and sounds like a horror movie to me :(
Yeah enemies to lovers in contemporary settings don't rly work unless the author does a hella good job w the redemption!
Full agree!
I love enemies to lovers as a trope and I think the biggest way people mess it up (often constantly with het romances) is that the enemies are rarely in equal footing. Rivals to lovers tends to pull that a lot better but people viewing enemies as a sort of dynamic where one despises and hurts the other while they just feel resentment and suffering instead of mutual retaliation is why it's got such a bad rep nowadays. It's like those bully x victim stories but just copy pasting that dynamic across all sorts of stories.
the "free speech" and "censorship" talking points are always interesting to me because the people who use them don't know what free speech means or what censorship looks like. My country was in a dictatorship up until 50 years ago and we learn a lot about what censorship actually looks like. Newspaper articles, books and even movies had to be approved by the government. The lápis azul, or "blue pencil", is a very famous symbol of censorship because that's what would be used to strike out passages from newspaper that weren't approved. You could get arrested for opposing the government.
Free speech protects people from all this government control and prosecution, not from criticism by other people.