Kyle Learns the Storm Bowling Ball Layout System
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ธ.ค. 2022
- Coach Daniel explain the Storm VLS system.
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I have been trying to understand layouts for years and I learned more in this video than I ever have. Thank you!
Had to put it in a way my simple brain could understand haha
Pin to PAP
1 1/2” Lays the core on its’ side (Control)
3 1/2” Puts the core at a 45* angle (Aggressive)
6” Stands the core straight up (Length)
PSA to PAP (Spins the core)
2” (Control)
4” (Aggressive)
6” (Length)
Pin Buffer
1” Increases diff. Hook phaze sooner.
4” Decreases diff. Hook phaze later.
DANIEL
ONE OF THE BEST COACHES AND NICEST PEOPLE IN THE BUSINESS. VERY PROUD TO HAVE HIM AS A FRIEND
Where is he from?? Sounds kinda Dutch to me.
I've tried to understand the VLS system, but the dual angle one is easier for me. I'm a math guy, geometry especially and angle values make more sense to me.
Same here. To me, this “simplification” attempt by Storm makes it more complicated than it really is.
@@TheVlad1616 I think the younger people would understand this system better. The kids now don't do geometry in school much anymore, so angle values don't make sense to them.
@@stellaraudioaz I don’t know that you need to know geometry per say, other than you need to understand what an angle is…
Rule of N makes dual angle so straight forward
If you're a math guy and into geometry, I'm surprised you don't gravitate towards VLS. In geometric terms VLS cuts the core into the x and y axis of a geometric graph which is how I (also very math savvy) visualize it in my head. You orient the core to your pap by the distance between both axis. Pin buffer and val angle are identical in my head I actually think angle maxes more sense.
People think I'm crazy, but I actually think the best layout system is distance x distance x angle, which is a hybrid of both VLS and Dual Angle.
I'm fluent in both systems and knowing them both is what really helps understand the entire process I believe.
The explanation how how the same layout will look entirely different based on PAP was outstanding. Nice work!!!
Man...this is probably the best video I've seen explaining layouts! Thank you so much for this!
I'm an old guy and when I got really into bowling in the early '80's urethane was getting big and there were no exotic layouts, it was like an ounce of finger weight and an ounce of side weight, it wasn't rocket science. This explanation was the best one I've seen where I actually understood it. That tip at the end by Coach Daniel where he says don't over complicate your ball choices because of over complicating your layout choices. So good! Thank you so much guys.
This is a really good video.....really good. I've bowled all my life, and I'm old, and this is a great way to articulate the differences. It's not like I've asked all these questions before, but I know more about what to ask when I bug my pro shop next time :)
Great info. I learned my pap a long time ago. Thanks for another awesome video.
Daniel Is a great guy, great coach and a great human being.
Thank you this was really very informative and so easy to remember explaint. I loved it. I think you cannot explain this any better
Thank you, Daniel (you too Kyle 🙂). I have watched so many of these explanation videos, but I always come back to your great explanation. Yes, I have watched this more times than I should admit, but this really helps me understand why some of my equipment has not performed as expected - like the 13/16" pin to VAL on one of my pieces.
Awesome guys!!! Love this. ( ps, Daniel, I’ve increased my league average about 15 pins this yr, after your clinic down here)
Thanks for the explanation!!!
That was great. Simplified, bottom line, layman's terms. Kyle and Brad (lol), best videos for bowlers.
This was probably the best and most useful video explanation of the VLS system. Thank you for this. Best fortunes this coming season Brad and Kyle.
Once you get used to it VLS makes sooooooo much more sense. Especially after watching the 3 storm videos. They do an AMAZING job explaining what each number does. I'm an engineer so the physics are much easier to understand with VLS because it is clear what the core is going to, dependant on the measurement.
One thing I do recommend is using 1 system. Trying to relate VLS to dual angle will complicate everything. There are some widely available excel arsenal spreadsheets that will convert VLS to dual angle and vice versa.
I'd love to hear more of your thoughts bro.. not an engineer but would like to hear more about how you see what a core will do
wow this is actually such a great video. I finally understand it now, thank you
Thanks for the video, learned so much what each numbers means to the ball. Could we get another videos on dual angle and pin buffer systems?
Hey Brad, Kyle + Dan - Maybe you could have Daniel go through the 2LS system as well?
You made me understand why my ball on my hyroad was drilled differently then my phase 3 and my electrified pearl. Thanks
Cool tech bowling brad and Kyle
great info thanx for sharing
Very nice video! ,Still trying to learn on the layouts , I which Daniel could explain while marking on the ball , which line is this pap or pin line , pin up or pin down . I am going watch this video over and over till I get the picture. Thanks again.
Great video!! Thanks. I wonder if you might do a segment like this on Thumb Slugs, Finger grips, shoes and some possible other paraphernalia?
I don't want to be a shill but one of the best things I ever downloaded was called "Paddock Dual Angle". I'm not sure how accurate the conversions are from VLS to Dual Angle but would be interesting to know.
Great advice thanks.
Does your PAP change based on the ball and layout you throw? What about how your hand is used to manipulate the ball, does the PAP change then? If I were to go throw my ball to learn my PAP by looking at the track rings, how should I throw the ball, and how should I NOT throw the ball?
Great question. I had the same thoughts. And I would add how does work on/improving your game effect PAP? How often should it be remeasured?
Wow great video I learned a lot !!!!
I am just like Kyle … pin up and pin down .. from there I just make the adjustments in my game …
Read my mind. The last couple days I have been trying to understand VLS.
Awesome video
Great video
We’ll explained vid nicely done guys
This is a great video and I have done that same thing and asked for the same reaction. I wish the pro shop would have told me this when I was there 😂, but oh well.....quick question though, I have changed my shot dramatically and some bowling balls that I had with a 6 inch are now a 4 inch pin. If this happens, what would you recommend, re-drilling for better reactions? (Not so long in first angle, etc) or would you think that I should replace the arsenal with the new PAP if I have the $ to do so.
Thank you for the informations... 👍👍
Thank you, now I understand why I need a longer pin to pap... because I only throw it 13 mph.
This was interesting, I'm not a Storm user, I don't dislike them, but I like Radical, Mo Pinel (RIP) designed the duel angle layout years ago and works for me. I do disagree with one thing, a short pin layout can work on aggressive balls with lighter patterns, for more hitting power at the pocket. For those into the tech of drilling balls nobody was better than Mo, he has a bunch of vids here. I love to learn the different thoughts of drillers and designers considering I started bowling in 1973 (7yo) with a white dot..
Thank you
Best advice I ever got about proshop is that if they don't take to find your stats and watch you throw the ball just walk away. When I first started bowling I went to a shop and they just drilled the ball. It was awful and actually turned me off to bowling for a while because I was doing so bad. Started up again and went to a shop recommended to me and it has been eye opening to say the least and always get my stuff from them.
I understood now I want it in person and to compare with my dad
Known Daniel a long time, he's the best.
Best video on layouts and I’m still not fully there yet. The driller at my center won’t even consider choice. He never has me bowl, bring in the ball, and measure my PAP
My venom shock and panic are drilled identical to each other. Mid friction solid and purple on the shock and the panic is a mid friction pearl and coral color. If I need the same reaction but longer I go to my panic . And my venom cobra is same as my shock and panic pin in palm.
Can you do one of these for no thumb bowlers.
Nothing changes. You're still orienting the pin and the PSA relative to your pap, and the effects of both are constant.
The only difference is instead of pin buffer, we use pin to CoG, but the same thing is happening, you're only deciding if you drill into the top, or side, of the core. Longer pin to CoG distance put your fingers in the side of the core. Shorter pin to CoG numbers put your fingers into the top of the core.
I think its more common for the driller to give the bowler shorter pins because they don't know the PAP to start with, and then the bowler complains that the bowling ball is reading at the arrows and bailing the rest of the way to the pins
After about 10 minutes, the pro shop guy started to sound like the teacher from Charlie Brown. 😂😢
Lol, I was thinking the same thing
Does the same apply to 2 handed bowlers? I order my balls from bowlerx and just have them drill 2 holes for me before they send it out to me so it’s basically random. Would you recommend me to buy it undrilled and go to my local pro shop guy to get it drilled for my specifications? Idk if this also applies to 2 handers.
The only thing I don't like about many layout systems is they talk about the VAL angle or distance from the VAL like the VAL is actually physically attributing to the ball reaction. It just defines where the finger holes take mass out of the core, and that is actually what affects the reaction. So a 2" pin to VAL for one bowler may not give the same reaction as a 2" pin to VAL as another bowler. Even though these are both 4 inch pin to PAP and 4" PSA to PAP, I bet they will give a different hook shape because of where the holes are taking the weight out of the core. Yes Pin to PAP and pin to PSA are the more important numbers for the ball reaction, but the pin (core) location to the ringer holes does change the angularity of the ball reaction. So I think it is really hard to compare reactions of layouts for different pin to PAPs.. but you can definitely know how a reaction will be different based on the numbers for a given pin to PAP.
I’m thinking about buying the attention star ball. Would a layout 5x4x4- 2LS be good?
Pin to PAP determines track flare, not when the ball will start to roll, with all due respect. Pin to PSA determines when the ball will start to try to roll. Pin buffer (pin to VAL) determines how quickly the ball changes direction (in general players are advised not to go under 2” on the pin buffer but sometimes it can be useful for certain players in certain situations).
If my pap is longer 5/6 then what is it I'm suppose to change in order for it to hook sooner, when my pap isn't made for sharp hook?
What if your positive axis point is the thumb hole?
Do you ever re-evaluate your PAP? Have you or any of the pro's you bowl with ever find that it has changed?
I am wondering this too. I got some bowling balls when I first started out. Does it change when you learn more skills?
Answer is yes, my pro shop operator likes to check pap and fit once a year. Sometimes it changes sometimes it doesn't.
6:50 Work the best possible at 2500 rpm on a car? Maybe for fuel efficiency but the power band (Peak Horsepower/Torque) is gonna be between 3k-5k in most cases.
So my ball driller recently drilled out a ball for me, I know my PAP is 6 over and 1 up, my pin is like half an inch from my PAP. Ball never hooks until the lanes get fried. Is that why because it's too close to 0 inches?
Yep. You will need to get into friction the dry part of lane quicker for it to start up sooner. The ball is drilled pin on axis at this point, very stable roll. You are also closer than 1 1/2 from your pap to the pin, thats no mans land, ball will and can act goofy to close to your pap. Mo talks about this on you tube videos. Look up bowling science videos frommo and his son mikey.
Kyle...How do I get that t shirt...I love that!
All merch can be shopped here ➡️ bradandkyle.com
3 balls, urethane, pearl sym, solid asym. 4 1/2 P to P, I like to change surface when i have to.
I think I’m more confused now then I was before lol
Do you always use the same pattern when drilling balls? also are all finger grips interchangeable? I see you guys pulling thumb pieces and switching it on balls sometimes…
My question is.... the layout numbers are so small (4x4x2) in your video, however, my layout numbers are so much larger (storm Phaze II = 30 x 3.75 x 20) what is the difference? How did my numbers become so large?
A different layout system. VLS is in inches and Dual angles uses 2 angles.
I know this is probably a really stupid comment/question why is that when you buy a ball and have it drilled most pro shops don't help a bowler find there PAP before drilling it. Or is that just something the Pro shops do for bowlers that press them for it.
Sadly, the answer is one of two things:
1) They simply don't give a sh*t, or
2) They don't actually understand anything that's discussed in this video, and all they're genuinely capable of doing is measuring your span, and plopping 3 holes anywhere they feel like putting them.
Inept PSO's are everywhere, unfortunately...
At some shops you need to already have one drilled for them to find it on. If you're getting your first ball drilled they won't be able to find that prior to drilling it.
@@MikeDCWeld That's not true. They can have you roll any ball to find it. Most pro shops are in a bowling alley and you can even throw a house ball and get your PAP.
@@MikeDCWeld Well its not just "some shops"... you always need a ball that fits you in order to accurately determine your PAP, that's a given. So yes, the layout for the first ball one buys is largely guesswork, and there's no way around that...but that's not what we're talking about here. There are plenty of PSO's out there who are either lazy or incompetent, who don't bother to measure anything, even if someone is buying their 10th ball. Plus, unless you're an android your PAP will migrate slightly over time... especially if you're a new bowler still developing basic skills. If it's been more than 6 months since you've drilled a ball, then you need new numbers before you buy anything else. Period.
You don't have a pap before you throw your first fitted ball, you can't measure it off of a house ball or before you learn at least some of the techniques to stabilize your pap. So the proshop has to guess on the first one. For any ball after your first, they can find it or get very close by measuring from the wear track of any ball you bring them. You don't ever need to know it or discuss it, as long as you bring a ball, most drillers will find it before drilling a new one. If a proshop offers to drill you a ball with no specs or an old ball to look at, they're not worth using and you shouldn't have forgotten it.
How do u find your pap?
is the pin to vertical axis line measured perpendicular to the VAL?
No, it's measured by swinging an arc around the pin, and drawing the VAL from your pap, tangent to the pin buffer arc.
My ultimate goal is trying to determine how my balls were drilled. So technically that tangent line that marks the VAL would be 90* from the pin?
@@TonyChin107 no. If the ball is already drilled, you would start by marking your midline and center of grip. Draw out your pap from your center of grip and mark it on the ball. Your VAL is perpendicular to your center line. Then just measure from pin to VAL at the shortest point, that's your pin buffer.
awesome. thank you for the tip!
What is best 14 lbs I need six . Speed about 16 mph rev challenge .Throwing heavy is not good for me had heart surgery.
What happens on a new ball that I can’t roll because ur has no holes yet?
It so much easier Kyle.
This is mandatory knowledge. Instead of Easter egging buying bowling balls impulsively it is recommended to learn the ball layout system.
Recap:
Pin to PAP: This determines the flare potential.
Pin to VAL: This sets the angle 📐 on how the bowling 🎳 ball revs at the brake point. Low angle the ball will rev quicker; higher angle slower.
PSA to PAP: Only pertains to asymmetric bowling balls. This measurement determines how early or late the bowling ball will hook.
How do you figure out the PAP of someone who never had their own bowling ball before? Lets say, they are joining a league and wants to have their first bowling ball.
This is a process. Your PAP will change as you change the way you throw.
That said, it is infinitely easier to narrow down your PAP when you use your own bowling ball.
He’s saying. You need a ball!
I just say this where I like the pin at .
is the math different for a person not using their thumb?
Y'all need to do a pin up vs a pin down video next :) That can also affect ball motion in a serious way.
Had one ball given to me that was already drilled, and it was pin down. I didn't mind it so much because I wanted to try a pin down. So, had it plugged and good to go. But my PAP is long (5 3/8 over 1 3/8 up), the PSA was below the thumb, and it just rolled like garbage. Way too late and didn't know what the ball was going to do most of the time.
Found the same ball on eBay for cheap and drilled it normally ( pin up with a 4 inch pin) with PSA next to the thumb). Night and day difference. Got rid of the pin down ball and kept the pin up one.
throw in a rico also
"Pin up vs. pin down," is done all over TH-cam. Can only talk about it in general terms though because there are so many unique releases and pap's. In general, pin down makes everything happen further down lane and smooths it out. Pin down is not for everyone. Also when you have a unique pap, it is possible that what someone has as pin down on their equipment, may be pin up or pin in the ring/middle.
Who won the giveaway?
Announced on our FB and Instagram
Eh, The angle system is easier for me visually to understand. My proshop guy can use both. Good vid.
Well at least know enough to be dangerous now! 🤣
Rhiannon Dubbo
PAL is far superiour to the 2LS system HANDS DOWN #BOWLINGSCIENCE
I thought it was funny that Brunswick decided to go with Storms system, not Mo\Mikeys.
DV8 agrees that pin to CoG is more valid and accurate way to orient the holes, than pin above line.
@@KennyGrinols agreed 100%
its official....I'm a dumb ass!!!
The hard part? Finding someone to drill your ball that actually understands all this. I'm not sure I've ever had a ball drilled correctly.
This is why it costs $50 on up to have a ball drilled.
No!!!! Kyle!!!! You traitor!!! Haha jk
In all honesty, learning drill layouts and how changing the numbers and how it changes your ball roll will really help you on your when the ball isn’t drive just the right way through the pins.
Clear as mud?? Bowling has passed me by.
Sorry but nope. More confused then before. Love your channel but it lost me.