Been playing for a couple years now, and this will be the first time I've seen disc throwing mechanics broken down in a way that I can understand, that makes sense, and actually inspires me to genuinely get better. Thank you for this.
Don't know if this way is wrong or not but it has helped me to relax rest of the arm if I keep shoulder out and down. So it's very good to hear someone thinks the same, thank you. Maybe some day I'll understand what Coach said😂hope it happens sooner than later.
Pleasure talking with you about all this out in the field the other day. Disc golf would benefit from a lot more bio mechanical explanation, Nick Krush touches on it here and there but these sorts of explanations could really help a lot of people. A lot of folks just don’t know what scapular protraction is so using the word without showing the meaning isn’t helpful. A lot of pro disc golfers probably couldn’t tell you what it is either even if they are actively doing it to power their throws.
Yeah that’s why I mentioned that bit about if you learn stuff intuitive you might not even realize you are doing it, which is probably the case with many pros. Definitely heard nick and blitz talk about it directly, but usually it seems like when it comes up it’s more indirect like ‘make space’ or a drill that may get you to do it but it’s usually not very directly focused on with a lot of attention.
@@aylarue1536 let me know how it feels when you try it! I had to revisit it / put extra focus on it multiple times to feel like I really started taking advantage of it.
This is weird because I randomly just started doing this and now I’m seeing your video. It’s like my phone knew. At least I know I’m on the right track now. I just need to build the muscle memory.
One tip/swing thought I've used to moderate success with regard to this is to think about pointing the back of the rear shoulder at the target during the coil. Focusing on the back shoulder seems to force scapular protraction while incorporating your line
You’re doing good stuff, Neil.. ty! I saw your very nose down video, and have been jealous of those throws since:) I’ll be protracting my scapula tomorrow.. I get it.. thanks!
@ I will lyk!.. Still waiting for my practice fields to reopen after Helene.. it’s a drag to have to drive 40 minutes to practice.. now’s probably a good time to get that net I was considering;) So, i have thrown a few shots on the course being conscious of protracting the shoulder,..early releases were happening, and I feel like it’s a matter of reps and sensory/video feedback to get it working and learned.. and smooth. And then, once the swing is smooth again, I’m dying to learn those very nose down throws!;) I’m sure you get asked a lot, but are you doing form critiques? Thanks for starting your channel- people have clearly noticed the dgimportant concepts, the clean presentation, and the timing! (Just what I need, right when I need it:)! Generous of you to be here for us.
@ I’ll probably get more into coaching and form reviews soonish. But I’m still trying a lot of stuff and deciding what I think about some things, so I’m wanting to settle in a bit more before getting more into coaching. As for the early release, it’s bound to happen when working on new stuff but it could be a lot of things as well. Some people have gotten used to rounding and releasing later and adjusted their aim point and stance to align for that, and then when they round less they miss early more. So double check where your runup is aligned and your brace. Maybe try adding some extra wrist curl in as well.
Love the videos! It’s nice listening to some else that thinks the same way I do about disc golf. A super interesting biomechanical puzzle for making a disc go far and accurately. I would imagine that I’m dragging the disc next to an edge of a tall table infront of me for straight shots. I didn’t think that I was doing exactly what you explained.
Man, this is amazing info. I’ve been struggling with this since learning to use my hips properly. I’ve had every problem you talked about at some point 😅😅
Neil, scapula protraction happens at full reach back by nearly all good throwers. The initial force application is from scapula retraction at the instant of change of direction. There is nearly zero scapular protraction in good players as they enter the power pocket because of the initial retraction. This has been measured extensively. The power source, going into and out of the power pocket comes from horizontal abduction.
Maybe this issue is more present in players who aren't starting out protracted. As someone with a weak spot in this area, I think I'm not even doing that. So my arm never goes from protracted to retracted at the shoulder in any part of the throw. Maybe there needs to be that transition to make this work.
Coach: What is "change in direction" here? My apologies for not knowing the answer. Is that going from backswing to swing? Or is this something mid-swing. Say going from in to out. Thank you in advance!
@@NickCarroll what I’m trying to emphasize is to focus on the timing of upper arm horizontal abduction from the beginning of the pull. David Wiggins barely gets to even 90° from pull to power pocket. His horizontal abduction is happening from the instant he applies force. He goes from near 90° to 150° at release. GG is about 165°. Get your arm moving faster than your shoulders can rotate. Make it feel like it is leading your shoulders.
I Finally know what im.sup supposed to feel like! I heard so much stuff and I'm waiting for that feel/click in the brain and I think this will do it! My max is 50 mph on tech disc so I'm hoping this will help!!! We will see tomorrow haha
Could just be me, but while I’ve found the conscious scapular protraction helpful at one stage of my form development, I think it’s a hinderance to throwing farther. I think the correct method to avoiding collapse of the pocket is keeping space between the elbow and the body, and learning how to prevent early rotation. The throw that can feel controlled and relaxed will always go further than a throw where you are consciously flexing a muscle.
If it’s true that you shouldn’t have as much of it later in advanced form I think it’s still a useful step for feeling how to create space, and like I said in the vid. I’ve focused on it a lot all the way up to 69.7mph so it’s been enough for 500 feet for me, but maybe beyond that I’d have not be so strict with it.
This is great stuff! I've been trying to work on this and the discussion and exercise here looks and feels like it'll help a lot. I think getting this right will also help in staying behind the brace. I seem to keep getting on top of my brace when I retract (pull) my shoulder but when I protract that just doesn't seem possible and I naturally try to stay behind my brace more to get power. Thanks!
I agree this particular topic hasn't been focused on much, and I think for myself my scapula is somewhat retracted, on top of me throwing more upright (even when I am trying to hyzer tilt).
I need help and pretty sure I don't do any of this correct. I am pretty good with up shots because I have no power. This sounds like great advice for me thanks Neil.
I noticed that when I do protract my shoulder, it angles the shoulder so that it will move my arm in the direction of the throw, before I begin to rotate my elbow. I'm engaging the scapular muscle to begin the throw. One more muscle, to begin arm acceleration.
I have been aware of this for a long time and I can do all this without the disk and even with rubber bands, against a tree and when I practice swing. It still can't do it well as soon as I get a disk in my hand and try to throw. I think my problem is timing, I think I have to throw "faster" than I actually need to and this just immediately leads to collapse. When I focus on throwing slow, that's when things start to come together.
Yeah you probably just gotta do lots of reps at that slow speed where you are able to do it to build up the muscle memory and then only slightly increased the speed and do lots of reps again and keep repeating that progression until you start having problems, then go 1 step down in speed and do more reps. That’s the most reliable method I feel like to introduce a new form change, but sometimes you get lucky or have a good coach that can find a cue that really connects with you and get faster results. Check out my vid a few back ‘experimental collapse cues’ where I try some stuff related to this on a friend. Perhaps having the visual markers (discs lined up on floor to think about a wider protracted swing path line to follow) might help.
Because of this video i went from 250' to 309' my first 300' throw and my first 1000 spin!!!! Now i just wamt to be consistent and throw 350' haha my dream is to throw over 400'
@disc-golf-neil my speed is now at 55mph. I feel that it's mostly arm. I'm having a hard time with the "feeling" for the timing of the brace and the throw. I've done 3 different in-person coaches and don't want to say names but it's clicking with your videos the most.
@@hiking7521 When you say it’s mostly arm feeling, are you not feeling that upper back stretch with the protraction during the throw? To me that’s more using the bigger muscles and back than the arm. What’s your issue with brace timing? Jumping the gun? I probably do that to some extent still but not so badly that it’s super noticeable, but I at least always wait to feel the brace land before try to do any part of the throw.
@disc-golf-neil I feel the protraction and feel solid with what you explained in the video...with my forearm limp. I feel my lower body loose and bot like a tree trunk or one solid unit with my upper body. Maybe that's what's it supposed to feel like? I feel like i pull my arm to fast even though my foot is planted a 1/2 second before I pull...sometime I'm sure I start pulling before or sometime as my foot plants. I feel that I'm not getting that power. I'm very active guy with the same body and age as you if that helps
@ yeah the pulling too fast is tough, I haven’t found a great solution to it. When I try to delay it I’m more likely to yank it late. But the main thing I’ve been focusing on is just trying to make sure I’m more focused on the scapular protraction and the body pulling the arm first and the elbow bending automatically instead of trying to help the elbow bend, then the arm kicks in after that instead of forcing things early. Other than that, in addition to the scapular protraction stuff, I’ve also tried: 1. Focusing on feeling like I’m trying to reach back just a tiny bit further when I feel the plant so that I don’t pull instantly. 2. Focusing on trying to curl my wrist only when I feel the plant land and not do anything else with the arm other then scapular protraction, it gives you something to focus on that is also useful to do but isn’t a full arm pull type thought. I actually had some good results with this one and might want to try it again. 3. Trying to keep the elbow bent on the reach back, this was pretty interesting, it made me focus even more on scapular protraction during the reach back and the power pocket and internal rotation during the power pocket, because there’s nothing else to think about with the arm when you aren’t the elbow. And I think when people feel their elbow extended during the reach back, it’s easy to get more Paul happy because it can make you want to help bend your elbow on the way into the pocket and pull while doing that. It was pretty hard to not extend the elbow during the reach back out of habit, but on The ones where I kept it decently bent, it made me feel like the elbow, extending in the reach back is kind of a big distraction, because without it, I felt more clearly. The power is coming from the bigger muscles and wasn’t really missing that much power. I’m gonna mess with this again at some point. Be careful trying this slow, since it’s pretty different, you might end up accidentally doing some weird stuff.
Good luck! Let me know how it goes even if it’s a struggle. As always, when actually starting to throw with it, it will probably take lots of lower power reps to get used to it and build the new muscle memory depending on how used to changing form you are. This definitely helped me break 400 for the first time and then I felt like I had learned the lesson, but upon focusing extra on it again it helped again to get me more consistently throwing 400 and touching 450. Of course I’ve worked on many other things but it was one of the most important for me since the rest of my form was already decent.
@@stepwise-dg I think this is really one crucial thing. The connection between the strong body muscles and the disc... Never really paid attention to this. I try to implement your nose down tips, too! I mean, somehow it has to be possible to throw 500..! Its insane, on how much thing you can concentrate, when u try to fix your form... your videos really give valuebale inspirations!
This is interesting video. I feel most control this way, but it seems everyone is talking about arming the disc and getting arm through first. Various cues such as delaying/stopping off shoulder, arm disc ahead of shoulders, but this video if I’m understanding is saying protract, plant, rotate body and protraction and rotation move disc?
@@julianseyal I think what I’m saying in this vid is can still be compatible with getting the arm ahead of the rotation. This mostly address how you can have some initial ‘lag’ that instead of collapsing and having the arm get stuck behind, you get a deeper stretch and no collapse and then after that initial rotation has happened and you are coming into a good spacious power pocket you can try aim to be more closed with the chest / shoulders not swinging open too far ahead and instead having the arm go ahead and focusing on abduction. I mentioned in the pulley exercise section that at higher weights you do have to start driving the elbow across the chest so that was kind of eluding to this. The biggest part to me is how to get a good stretch and survive the initial forces to get into a good pocket without collapse.
When I get shoulder protraction right, it makes timing simpler because my arm becomes "attached" to the rest of my body. It helps the sequence to fall into place, instead of my arm starting too soon. Thanks for sharing! Now I have a better vocabulary to describe the feeling and can diagnose the different types of collapse. I feel like there is a similar missing link when I throw forehand, like my shoulder isn't in place to take advantage of my body's positions. My elbow and wrist are doing all the work. Do you think there is an analog of this idea, for forehand throws?
That's awesome, good explanation. This is an under discussed topic in BH, so in FH, if there is an analog it's probably even harder to come by. I haven't thought it or tested enough with FH, but will make a vid on it if I find an analog. This made me curious if the role of scapular protraction is already documented in baseball pitching. I asked chat gpt if it plays a role when throwing a baseball 'by your side' (hoping it would be more similar to FH in dg at your side) and it listed lots of benefits. I think people who FH trying to tuck the elbow close to the body probably wouldn't use that much, but maybe people who FH with the elbow further away from the body would. For example, Ryan Sheldon has his elbow pretty far away from the body on a crush, looks like he's trying to take full advantage of the length of his arm kinda, which scapular protraction should help with. Can't really through the shirt when / how much scapular protraction is used but take a look at the elbow distance at the timestamp: th-cam.com/video/cHpb3CHDiZ0/w-d-xo.html Mind as well try scapular protraction on FH with the tech disc first before looking for any other analog, haha.
Good stuff do you think should start at beginning of run up with scapula protracted at beginning of run up, as soon as your reach back or when exactly do you start the protraction? Seems like for me it would be easier to start as soon as I’m lining up my shot so it’s one less thing to think about until it becomes ingrained?
Yeah, preset it ideally, and then stretch it even deeper on reachback. Presetting it will help build up the muscle memory and if you forget to deepen it more on the reachback then at least you still have some of it there. Plus, presetting it will make it easier to accidentally horizontally collapse your shoulder when reaching back for the people who do that because of not coiling and instead collapse their arm across their chest when reaching backwards, but because of that wall drill I showed, scapular protraction creates a natural resistance to horizontal collapse, so it might help people feel if they are about to horizontally collapse on the reachback because they will feel it's harder to collapse if they were maintaining protraction.
This is interesting video. I feel most control this way, but it seems everyone is talking about arming the disc and getting arm through first. Various cues such as delaying/stopping off shoulder, arm disc ahead of shoulders, but this video if I’m understanding is saying protract, plant, rotate body and protraction and rotation move disc?
Hey Neil I’m traveling and can’t do field work with this yet. Eager to know if you or other subscribers think this can help overcome muscling the pull throw and straining the shoulder. I have been fighting this habit for years keeping my shoulder hurting and I fear injury if I don’t correct strong arming the disc. Thanks!
I think it could help with that but it all depends of course on what other issues you have and how you practice to break and form habits. For example, if you don’t coil or brace well, you might not feel like you get power without arming the disc, so this might not help a lot in that case since you don’t have power from other places. However, if your coiling and bracing is decent then I think this could help feel less need to arm the disc, but to actually break the habit you’d still need a lot of practice probably. Like throwing slow lots of reps with this scapular protraction feeling and gradually increasing the speed until you can do the new form at higher speeds. Side note, I think if the arm is in a good position, trying to arm the disc for BH isn’t all that dangerous if it’s not already damaged / limited. I don’t really feel that much added strain when I’ve tested more arming cues for a while, but if your elbow is pinned to down and to the side then arming the disc is cranking way too much on external rotation. And if your arm is injured / limited then you may still need PT and training even if you fix form.
Neil, I was always thinking why I have such a powerful one hand backhand in tennis and don’t seem to transfer to my disc golf backhand.. After watching your video it might be that with a heavier object the scapula protraction is done more naturally or by default ..have to watch some Wawrinka video to confirm ..
Seems to be diff in one hand bh topspin swings where horizontal collapse is pretty normal and doesn’t seem to be an issue. I have a short pickleball 1HBH topspin swing comparison a few vids back and I have some initial horizontal collapse in pickleball. When warming up with the pickleball paddle for DG though I try to swing more like my DG throw though.
This is a great video. I can see now what others have tried to explain in the mechanics of the shoulder arm and torso.
This is the best discussion on power pocket I've ever seen.
Brilliant!
This has been a game changer for me! Awesome drills!
@@birdseyevue lets goo!
Been playing for a couple years now, and this will be the first time I've seen disc throwing mechanics broken down in a way that I can understand, that makes sense, and actually inspires me to genuinely get better. Thank you for this.
@@djhollowman9567 appreciate it, good luck!
Best explanation I have heard, this makes total sense. Thank you
Excellent video! When i syarted to work on this i saw an immediate change in the results of my throws and the speed from my techdisc
sick
Great video. Very informative I will give it a try
Don't know if this way is wrong or not but it has helped me to relax rest of the arm if I keep shoulder out and down. So it's very good to hear someone thinks the same, thank you. Maybe some day I'll understand what Coach said😂hope it happens sooner than later.
I tried it and it was amazing. Looking forward to the exercises to help me stay in a proper position.
Good to hear. How did it feel different in your swings when you tried it?
Lóoved! Thanks!!
I was just slumping over lol. This really made a light go off and definitely felt it on the wall. Thanks man.
BTW: no I have not heard this explained so fundamentally.
Pleasure talking with you about all this out in the field the other day. Disc golf would benefit from a lot more bio mechanical explanation, Nick Krush touches on it here and there but these sorts of explanations could really help a lot of people. A lot of folks just don’t know what scapular protraction is so using the word without showing the meaning isn’t helpful. A lot of pro disc golfers probably couldn’t tell you what it is either even if they are actively doing it to power their throws.
Yeah that’s why I mentioned that bit about if you learn stuff intuitive you might not even realize you are doing it, which is probably the case with many pros.
Definitely heard nick and blitz talk about it directly, but usually it seems like when it comes up it’s more indirect like ‘make space’ or a drill that may get you to do it but it’s usually not very directly focused on with a lot of attention.
This was beyond helpful! Thank you! Going to try this myself tomorrow
I have a feeling this is gonna help me out big time.
@@aylarue1536 let me know how it feels when you try it! I had to revisit it / put extra focus on it multiple times to feel like I really started taking advantage of it.
This is weird because I randomly just started doing this and now I’m seeing your video. It’s like my phone knew. At least I know I’m on the right track now. I just need to build the muscle memory.
One tip/swing thought I've used to moderate success with regard to this is to think about pointing the back of the rear shoulder at the target during the coil. Focusing on the back shoulder seems to force scapular protraction while incorporating your line
You’re doing good stuff, Neil.. ty!
I saw your very nose down video, and have been jealous of those throws since:)
I’ll be protracting my scapula tomorrow.. I get it.. thanks!
Thanks. “I’ll be protracting my scapula tomorrow” 🤣
Let me know how it feels.
@ I will lyk!.. Still waiting for my practice fields to reopen after Helene.. it’s a drag to have to drive 40 minutes to practice.. now’s probably a good time to get that net I was considering;) So, i have thrown a few shots on the course being conscious of protracting the shoulder,..early releases were happening, and I feel like it’s a matter of reps and sensory/video feedback to get it working and learned.. and smooth. And then, once the swing is smooth again, I’m dying to learn those very nose down throws!;)
I’m sure you get asked a lot, but are you doing form critiques?
Thanks for starting your channel- people have clearly noticed the dgimportant concepts, the clean presentation, and the timing! (Just what I need, right when I need it:)! Generous of you to be here for us.
@ I’ll probably get more into coaching and form reviews soonish. But I’m still trying a lot of stuff and deciding what I think about some things, so I’m wanting to settle in a bit more before getting more into coaching.
As for the early release, it’s bound to happen when working on new stuff but it could be a lot of things as well. Some people have gotten used to rounding and releasing later and adjusted their aim point and stance to align for that, and then when they round less they miss early more. So double check where your runup is aligned and your brace. Maybe try adding some extra wrist curl in as well.
Excellent video.
Thanks, I knew some of this but not as in-depth as this. Very good.
Love the videos! It’s nice listening to some else that thinks the same way I do about disc golf. A super interesting biomechanical puzzle for making a disc go far and accurately.
I would imagine that I’m dragging the disc next to an edge of a tall table infront of me for straight shots. I didn’t think that I was doing exactly what you explained.
Man, this is amazing info. I’ve been struggling with this since learning to use my hips properly. I’ve had every problem you talked about at some point 😅😅
Neil, scapula protraction happens at full reach back by nearly all good throwers. The initial force application is from scapula retraction at the instant of change of direction. There is nearly zero scapular protraction in good players as they enter the power pocket because of the initial retraction. This has been measured extensively. The power source, going into and out of the power pocket comes from horizontal abduction.
Where does the appearance of a rounded upper back during the pocket come from if there's no protraction in the pocket?
Maybe this issue is more present in players who aren't starting out protracted. As someone with a weak spot in this area, I think I'm not even doing that. So my arm never goes from protracted to retracted at the shoulder in any part of the throw. Maybe there needs to be that transition to make this work.
Coach: What is "change in direction" here? My apologies for not knowing the answer. Is that going from backswing to swing? Or is this something mid-swing. Say going from in to out. Thank you in advance!
@@NickCarroll what I’m trying to emphasize is to focus on the timing of upper arm horizontal abduction from the beginning of the pull. David Wiggins barely gets to even 90° from pull to power pocket. His horizontal abduction is happening from the instant he applies force. He goes from near 90° to 150° at release. GG is about 165°. Get your arm moving faster than your shoulders can rotate. Make it feel like it is leading your shoulders.
@@coach_chris_taylor Awesome, thank you!
Cool video, definently trying this in the gym later
I Finally know what im.sup supposed to feel like! I heard so much stuff and I'm waiting for that feel/click in the brain and I think this will do it! My max is 50 mph on tech disc so I'm hoping this will help!!! We will see tomorrow haha
Because of this video I went from 250' to my first 300' throw!!!!!! And my first 1000 spin
309'
Could just be me, but while I’ve found the conscious scapular protraction helpful at one stage of my form development, I think it’s a hinderance to throwing farther. I think the correct method to avoiding collapse of the pocket is keeping space between the elbow and the body, and learning how to prevent early rotation. The throw that can feel controlled and relaxed will always go further than a throw where you are consciously flexing a muscle.
If it’s true that you shouldn’t have as much of it later in advanced form I think it’s still a useful step for feeling how to create space, and like I said in the vid. I’ve focused on it a lot all the way up to 69.7mph so it’s been enough for 500 feet for me, but maybe beyond that I’d have not be so strict with it.
This is great stuff! I've been trying to work on this and the discussion and exercise here looks and feels like it'll help a lot. I think getting this right will also help in staying behind the brace. I seem to keep getting on top of my brace when I retract (pull) my shoulder but when I protract that just doesn't seem possible and I naturally try to stay behind my brace more to get power. Thanks!
I agree this particular topic hasn't been focused on much, and I think for myself my scapula is somewhat retracted, on top of me throwing more upright (even when I am trying to hyzer tilt).
I need help and pretty sure I don't do any of this correct. I am pretty good with up shots because I have no power. This sounds like great advice for me thanks Neil.
Looking forward to tip #2 haha
I noticed that when I do protract my shoulder, it angles the shoulder so that it will move my arm in the direction of the throw, before I begin to rotate my elbow. I'm engaging the scapular muscle to begin the throw. One more muscle, to begin arm acceleration.
make a forehand vid pls
I have been aware of this for a long time and I can do all this without the disk and even with rubber bands, against a tree and when I practice swing. It still can't do it well as soon as I get a disk in my hand and try to throw. I think my problem is timing, I think I have to throw "faster" than I actually need to and this just immediately leads to collapse. When I focus on throwing slow, that's when things start to come together.
Yeah you probably just gotta do lots of reps at that slow speed where you are able to do it to build up the muscle memory and then only slightly increased the speed and do lots of reps again and keep repeating that progression until you start having problems, then go 1 step down in speed and do more reps.
That’s the most reliable method I feel like to introduce a new form change, but sometimes you get lucky or have a good coach that can find a cue that really connects with you and get faster results.
Check out my vid a few back ‘experimental collapse cues’ where I try some stuff related to this on a friend. Perhaps having the visual markers (discs lined up on floor to think about a wider protracted swing path line to follow) might help.
Because of this video i went from 250' to 309' my first 300' throw and my first 1000 spin!!!! Now i just wamt to be consistent and throw 350' haha my dream is to throw over 400'
@@hiking7521 hell yeah dude!! Keep it up.
@disc-golf-neil my speed is now at 55mph. I feel that it's mostly arm. I'm having a hard time with the "feeling" for the timing of the brace and the throw.
I've done 3 different in-person coaches and don't want to say names but it's clicking with your videos the most.
@@hiking7521
When you say it’s mostly arm feeling, are you not feeling that upper back stretch with the protraction during the throw? To me that’s more using the bigger muscles and back than the arm.
What’s your issue with brace timing? Jumping the gun? I probably do that to some extent still but not so badly that it’s super noticeable, but I at least always wait to feel the brace land before try to do any part of the throw.
@disc-golf-neil I feel the protraction and feel solid with what you explained in the video...with my forearm limp. I feel my lower body loose and bot like a tree trunk or one solid unit with my upper body. Maybe that's what's it supposed to feel like? I feel like i pull my arm to fast even though my foot is planted a 1/2 second before I pull...sometime I'm sure I start pulling before or sometime as my foot plants. I feel that I'm not getting that power. I'm very active guy with the same body and age as you if that helps
@ yeah the pulling too fast is tough, I haven’t found a great solution to it. When I try to delay it I’m more likely to yank it late.
But the main thing I’ve been focusing on is just trying to make sure I’m more focused on the scapular protraction and the body pulling the arm first and the elbow bending automatically instead of trying to help the elbow bend, then the arm kicks in after that instead of forcing things early.
Other than that, in addition to the scapular protraction stuff, I’ve also tried:
1. Focusing on feeling like I’m trying to reach back just a tiny bit further when I feel the plant so that I don’t pull instantly.
2. Focusing on trying to curl my wrist only when I feel the plant land and not do anything else with the arm other then scapular protraction, it gives you something to focus on that is also useful to do but isn’t a full arm pull type thought. I actually had some good results with this one and might want to try it again.
3. Trying to keep the elbow bent on the reach back, this was pretty interesting, it made me focus even more on scapular protraction during the reach back and the power pocket and internal rotation during the power pocket, because there’s nothing else to think about with the arm when you aren’t the elbow. And I think when people feel their elbow extended during the reach back, it’s easy to get more Paul happy because it can make you want to help bend your elbow on the way into the pocket and pull while doing that. It was pretty hard to not extend the elbow during the reach back out of habit, but on The ones where I kept it decently bent, it made me feel like the elbow, extending in the reach back is kind of a big distraction, because without it, I felt more clearly. The power is coming from the bigger muscles and wasn’t really missing that much power. I’m gonna mess with this again at some point. Be careful trying this slow, since it’s pretty different, you might end up accidentally doing some weird stuff.
I´m gonna try this tomorrow. When this helps me to throw consistant over 400 I will paypal you 50 bucks!
Good luck! Let me know how it goes even if it’s a struggle. As always, when actually starting to throw with it, it will probably take lots of lower power reps to get used to it and build the new muscle memory depending on how used to changing form you are.
This definitely helped me break 400 for the first time and then I felt like I had learned the lesson, but upon focusing extra on it again it helped again to get me more consistently throwing 400 and touching 450. Of course I’ve worked on many other things but it was one of the most important for me since the rest of my form was already decent.
@@stepwise-dg I think this is really one crucial thing. The connection between the strong body muscles and the disc... Never really paid attention to this. I try to implement your nose down tips, too! I mean, somehow it has to be possible to throw 500..! Its insane, on how much thing you can concentrate, when u try to fix your form... your videos really give valuebale inspirations!
This is interesting video. I feel most control this way, but it seems everyone is talking about arming the disc and getting arm through first. Various cues such as delaying/stopping off shoulder, arm disc ahead of shoulders, but this video if I’m understanding is saying protract, plant, rotate body and protraction and rotation move disc?
@@julianseyal I think what I’m saying in this vid is can still be compatible with getting the arm ahead of the rotation.
This mostly address how you can have some initial ‘lag’ that instead of collapsing and having the arm get stuck behind, you get a deeper stretch and no collapse and then after that initial rotation has happened and you are coming into a good spacious power pocket you can try aim to be more closed with the chest / shoulders not swinging open too far ahead and instead having the arm go ahead and focusing on abduction.
I mentioned in the pulley exercise section that at higher weights you do have to start driving the elbow across the chest so that was kind of eluding to this.
The biggest part to me is how to get a good stretch and survive the initial forces to get into a good pocket without collapse.
When I get shoulder protraction right, it makes timing simpler because my arm becomes "attached" to the rest of my body. It helps the sequence to fall into place, instead of my arm starting too soon. Thanks for sharing! Now I have a better vocabulary to describe the feeling and can diagnose the different types of collapse.
I feel like there is a similar missing link when I throw forehand, like my shoulder isn't in place to take advantage of my body's positions. My elbow and wrist are doing all the work. Do you think there is an analog of this idea, for forehand throws?
That's awesome, good explanation.
This is an under discussed topic in BH, so in FH, if there is an analog it's probably even harder to come by. I haven't thought it or tested enough with FH, but will make a vid on it if I find an analog.
This made me curious if the role of scapular protraction is already documented in baseball pitching. I asked chat gpt if it plays a role when throwing a baseball 'by your side' (hoping it would be more similar to FH in dg at your side) and it listed lots of benefits.
I think people who FH trying to tuck the elbow close to the body probably wouldn't use that much, but maybe people who FH with the elbow further away from the body would. For example, Ryan Sheldon has his elbow pretty far away from the body on a crush, looks like he's trying to take full advantage of the length of his arm kinda, which scapular protraction should help with.
Can't really through the shirt when / how much scapular protraction is used but take a look at the elbow distance at the timestamp: th-cam.com/video/cHpb3CHDiZ0/w-d-xo.html
Mind as well try scapular protraction on FH with the tech disc first before looking for any other analog, haha.
Good stuff do you think should start at beginning of run up with scapula protracted at beginning of run up, as soon as your reach back or when exactly do you start the protraction? Seems like for me it would be easier to start as soon as I’m lining up my shot so it’s one less thing to think about until it becomes ingrained?
Yeah, preset it ideally, and then stretch it even deeper on reachback.
Presetting it will help build up the muscle memory and if you forget to deepen it more on the reachback then at least you still have some of it there.
Plus, presetting it will make it easier to accidentally horizontally collapse your shoulder when reaching back for the people who do that because of not coiling and instead collapse their arm across their chest when reaching backwards, but because of that wall drill I showed, scapular protraction creates a natural resistance to horizontal collapse, so it might help people feel if they are about to horizontally collapse on the reachback because they will feel it's harder to collapse if they were maintaining protraction.
This is interesting video. I feel most control this way, but it seems everyone is talking about arming the disc and getting arm through first. Various cues such as delaying/stopping off shoulder, arm disc ahead of shoulders, but this video if I’m understanding is saying protract, plant, rotate body and protraction and rotation move disc?
Hey Neil I’m traveling and can’t do field work with this yet. Eager to know if you or other subscribers think this can help overcome muscling the pull throw and straining the shoulder. I have been fighting this habit for years keeping my shoulder hurting and I fear injury if I don’t correct strong arming the disc. Thanks!
I think it could help with that but it all depends of course on what other issues you have and how you practice to break and form habits.
For example, if you don’t coil or brace well, you might not feel like you get power without arming the disc, so this might not help a lot in that case since you don’t have power from other places.
However, if your coiling and bracing is decent then I think this could help feel less need to arm the disc, but to actually break the habit you’d still need a lot of practice probably. Like throwing slow lots of reps with this scapular protraction feeling and gradually increasing the speed until you can do the new form at higher speeds.
Side note, I think if the arm is in a good position, trying to arm the disc for BH isn’t all that dangerous if it’s not already damaged / limited. I don’t really feel that much added strain when I’ve tested more arming cues for a while, but if your elbow is pinned to down and to the side then arming the disc is cranking way too much on external rotation.
And if your arm is injured / limited then you may still need PT and training even if you fix form.
Thank you for the very thoughtful and thorough response. It gives me some things to consider!
I haven't seen this much. I do think that I saw a pro mention this. I want to say it was Lucky, but I could be wrong.
Found it. Her first tip.
m.th-cam.com/video/foYvNx5XozY/w-d-xo.html
@@brianc1651 holyn handley has a protiptuesday reel on IG mentioning to ‘bear hug’ in the pocket.
best d
Neil, I was always thinking why I have such a powerful one hand backhand in tennis and don’t seem to transfer to my disc golf backhand.. After watching your video it might be that with a heavier object the scapula protraction is done more naturally or by default ..have to watch some Wawrinka video to confirm ..
Seems to be diff in one hand bh topspin swings where horizontal collapse is pretty normal and doesn’t seem to be an issue.
I have a short pickleball 1HBH topspin swing comparison a few vids back and I have some initial horizontal collapse in pickleball. When warming up with the pickleball paddle for DG though I try to swing more like my DG throw though.
Hey, off topic, but what desk do you have?
Also, lol @ 3:57 😂
It’s from ikea. Large sit stand electric. Not sure if they still have this model. Not seeing it.
Tell us you're a bachelor without telling us you're a bachelor! Lol 😅
I sent you a email, nice video btw!