Mage on Trial - Part 1
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ก.ค. 2024
- Today, Drew from Occultists Anonymous defends Mage The Awakening against Corbin the Awkward GM's charges. Who will win? Who will lose? Leave a comment below with your guesses.
@OccultistsAnonymous
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TABLE OF CONTENTS:
00:00:00 Intro
00:00:22 Sensory Range
00:16:50 Mage Armor
00:25:15 Pattern Restoration
00:33:11 Abyssal Entities
00:40:35 Withstand
00:51:08 Counterspell/Dispell
00:59:00 Clash of Wills
01:04:00 Acts of Hubris
01:16:37 Wisdom 7
01:25:00 XP Costs
01:34:40 Obsessions
01:41:00 Lore Section
01:47:00 Outro - เกม
Used to be no one would talk Mage on TH-cam. Now we have TWO whole nerds with TH-cam channels about it. It's getting big!
Drew was awesome to collaborate on this project with me. 🤗 Chronicles of Darkness doesn’t get as much love as it should.
My god this is the niche nerdy content I am here for. Thanks for this.
Thank you! I hope you enjoy it!!!
Tell "Scent isn't enough to target" to the Thyrsus with Heightened Senses.
Probably a good edge case to do.
By default! Zoom In would extend sensory range out quite a bit as well! The specific problem I have with 'scent' is that you're likely to smell them in an 'area' rather than pinpoint them directly, but you are correct!
40:00 Abyssals not being the bad guys is exactly what I would expect an Abyssal to claim. 😮
One neat thing of losing wisdom that wasn't discussed is that the lower you wisdom, the more things that get warped and twisted by your long term nimbus. At high wisdom, only things that are very important to you will have your magic rub off onto them, at low wisdom, if you go to a coffee shop a few times it's going to start to be afflicted by your nimbus and have magic stuff.
Another neat thing, is that when it comes to demon xp costs, that demons get free dots of Primium & interlocks every few seconds because of the cool cipher system. After 10 sessions, a demon can spend 0 xp towards Primium and go up 2 power stat easily.
If my Obsession was "Divine the future from the dying eyes of children" I'm gonna be speedrunning to Raptdom.
Big oof. Better work at a hospital specializing in caring for sick children I guess. I might use this as an NPC in the right game. Def gonna have to ask the table for permission, though. But wow, what a concept.
Yeah the clash of Wills thing you were remembering with attributes came about when 2e started to move away from the 5-dot structure of 1e. It leads to the attribute based often clashes being much stronger at chargen, but being harder to keep up after chargen.
theoretically upping an attribute is never a _bad_ idea, but for the splats that use attribute based clashes often get more mileage out of skills than they do attributes, and power based splats get more out of upping their powers than they do out of anything else. although the only attribute splats i have played (beast and changeling) have enough options to not often need to do a clash.
The key distinction here is definitely the "Zoo Game" vs. "Mage game" mindsets. Is interesting to see, since I've only run one crossover campaign so far, and mainly run solo-splat games.
Sensory = It should be better, and you can mitigate the need with better stats and a merit. As a game, Mage wants to incentivize reach to trigger paradox scenarios and wisdom breaking points.
I think if you are beyond a -5 penalty to see something, its outside sensory range. I forget where I heard/read this, but you do need to clearly detect something to target with sensory. I think Unveiling spells are very useful for extending sensory range. Oh and to clarify, Targeted spells are Gnosis + Athletics or (firearms/brawl depending on melee or range)
Mage armor = I'm pretty sure you can't reflexively do something in response to a trigger you don't perceive. By definition, when surprised, you don't see it coming. I wouldn't let someone activate Mage armor until after they got hit at least once and therefore was aware of danger. Though I would allow a paranoid mage to preemptively activate it of course. I'll have to look at the "works on surprise" thing though.
Pattern Restoration = Peripheral Mage sight is the answer here for magical sources. For mundane conditions, Self awareness might be a dice-roll if it isn't obvious. For Hubris conditions, I'd say most characters aren't cognizant enough to realize something is wrong on their own. Drew nailed it on the head about narrative gaming vs other types of gaming here.
Abyssal entities = They act like ephemeral entities mechanically. What aspects they have is completely up to the entity. They could be inidviduals or situations or timelines. very versatile. very... impossible. This is more an issue with the book and having to deal with wordcount making it so the rules are referred to instead of spelt out. The rules do exist, just not clearly so. And the two entities are Gulmoth and Acamoth! I mix up which is which all the time, though.
Withstand = Needed mechanic given the power of magic. I would argue more spells should be withstood that appear in the book. You can use the Willpower at any time during the duration. You could be affected by something, feel the effects, get screwed by it, and then decide you want to power past it for a turn. Withstand directly reduces the potency of any spell. If the Potency is zero, then the spell still exists if cast successfully, but has no effect.
Counterspell/dispel = Some Spirits/entities do have counterspell. But yeah, Clash of Wills is a great mechanic.
Clash of Wills = Changelings use Wyrd+Highest Finesse Attribute, but they are the only ones as far as I know. I actually like this because many supernatural effects aren't tied to Arcana or w/e. I feel like Vampires using Highest Power attribute and Mages using highest Resistance works well thematically. Like if I try to use Pattern restoration to overcome a mental condition that is the result of an ongoing spell, what do I roll for that?
Act of Hubris = Shorter Paradox condition durations doesn't negate that the Paradox remains in your nimbus and increases further paradox. Still needs to be purged with pattern scouring. As there is a limit on how many times you can scour, this is still pretty bad as a situation. Lower Wisdom tiers do also affect your nimbus bleed as well, which can affect the world in strange ways.
Masque/Order Status = I would let them keep Masque, but without the prerequisite, they couldn't use it. Regaining status would allow them to reclaim their use. They could just let it go an dget their full merit dots back if they decided to not pursue redemption. Makes for easier book-keeping and is narratively appropriate as sort of a penance. But yeah, there is an interesting conversation to be had here regarding what kind of mental state or resources are needed to justify these special order merits. I can see someone trying to argue that once you learn to do something you can just do it, in which case it might be terrfiying when the guardians mindwipe their secrets out of you maybe? Either way, good call to yoink it. And no offense to Corbin, but if someone wanted Masques on a seer character I'd be very suspicious of them. I also wouldn't have said yes without some convos about what exactly they wanted from this character. Well, I guess he had his reasons to say yes(I wasn't there).
Wisdom 7 = Breaking point feels long-term to me, lol. Lasting mental trauma probably also counts.
Obsessions = Acts of Hubris negatives are very bad. I will say that max is 6 dice with Virtue, though. Notoriety is a condition.
Withstand: Most powerful creatures, will have good withstands to begin with so is mainly not an issue. I will say that withstand is broken in 2 ways. 1) Rank as Withstand is immensely lopsided with how powerful the different ranks represent. 2) Exceptional success can allow you to ignore withstand. As for why withstand works different to other systems, it's so that it can deal with area spells and duration where you can easily not know the resistance stats of an antagonist who will be affected by it, because there wasn't a discrete target during casting.
For example, if you cast a curse on a school when it's the middle of the night when no one is there, that will affect anyone who is within the school for the next month, what would you have the spell contest against? The spell system needs to be able to deal with this sort of situation.
The Spell System does handle that situation. If your Potency is say 5 then it effects anyone with that withstand attribute 4 or less. if they have 5 in that attribute they ignore the spell.
@@joshdrew7261 that was my point. That the potency and withstand system exist to handle this eventually, rather than using the contested rolls system used by vampire which cannot handle it
@@milov3154 Oh gotcha.
This is fantastic. ❤ Love me some Mage: The Awakening 2E. Nice video Corbin & Drew!
Glad you enjoyed it!
I'm planning to run a Mage game soon, and these pointed questions are helpful for getting me used to some of the speicfic details of the game.
I’m definitely using these videos for myself for future reference. 😅
Videos like these are a public service to anyone wanting to run the game. They really make me wanna just rant at Corbin for hours about how ridiculously cool Mage the Awakening is(in a fun way). Heck, I'd run a game for him if it would convert him/make him a fan!
@@radriel6983 We might drag him in sometime... :P
We've got a great big Discord you can sneak into and hit us up with all sorts of Mage-y questions.
@@OccultistsAnonymous Signed up for pings on the discord. Very interested to see how Corbin handles some good ol' phenomenal cosmic power
i didn't know I wanted this
Sensory: Reach should always be on the scale of things like "sensory, sympathic casting, instant casting, advanced scale, advanced duration". All are very potent. Though I will say I have Fast Spells as free for all characters.
Mage Armour: The surprise element is poorly worded, it should be worded as "it can apply when you are surprised", since you still need to know to activate it. If a sniper shoots at you and you have no idea, then you have no reason to take the reflexive action. If people pull a knife on you, you can still turn it on when you're surprised, but if you just find a blade in your spine it's too late.
Pattern Restoration: The main issue with pattern restoration is no one uses it lol, once a cabal has access to Life 3 & Mind 3.
Abyssals: Page count is a harsh mistress. Had so much cut content, that Signs of Sorceries ended up to be made. I will say I disagree with Drew on the antagonism of abyssals, they are pretty malicious & hostile in the lore, but they are probably best used as supplemental to another mage antagonist, either acamoth tempting a mage or a gulmoth being summoned by a mage.
Obsessions: Some other gamelines also have equivalent methods of getting more beats, vampires have blood beats, deviants have their touchstones, werewolves have the sacred hunt being a condition so gives beats, and demon storyteller guide adds genre beats.
I loved this. More nerd arguments, please
This was excellent, very helpful. I hope you do more of these.
Werewolves in hybrid forms (Dalu, Gauru and Urshul) can apply their defense against firearms.
Gotcha, we were so focused on MtAw with this we didn't have the other books on hand. 😬
i think every splat (but maybe hunters?) can get defense against firearms if they want it.
Currently playing in a Mage/Changeling game so I can speak from experience to mage vs changeling Clash of Wills:
Long term Gnosis + Arcana is going to benefit the mages more because getting better at their powers also makes them better at clashing with those powers.
Early on it can be a huge boost to the changeling, depending on their build, (and I suppose this would also apply compared to Vampires, and anything else that uses Power Stat + 'Spell' Dots,) because a starting character can have attributes much higher than a mage's starting arcana etc. That said, you probably don't have all three finesse attributes super high (and might not have any) so depending on what gets deemed "appropriate" for any given ability they might actually be in rough shape.
This should be interesting!
Hope you enjoy it!
Regarding Abyssal entities, the books Invaders: Intruders from the Abyss, Summoners and Grimoire of Grimoires have some great references for Abyssal entities, and Night Horrors: Nameless & Accursed has some great Abyssal magic using antagonists. Exploding Hallows, an addictive physics formula that breaks the rules of reality as you decypher it, a recording of an impossible seance that lets you see the influence of the Abyss, it has many unusual antagonists.
I have to disagree with Drew on this one, Abyssal entities are things that cannot be. They are alien to reality and always have a wrongness to them, they actively try to break reality regardless of Rank and there is always a downside. These are the things that make reality benders break out in a cold sweat. An experienced mage will start smelling the sound of creaking metal or other similar sign and their adrenaline will start pumping.
I'm pretty sure that the text regarding Mage Armor and Surprise Attacks is stating that "If the mage has already activated their Mage Armor, their defense is still applied against surprise attacks." That makes sense to me, and definitely vibes with the "prepared Mage" credo.
Reflexive Actions are... reflexive, reactive. Surprise Attacks rob you of that ability to react until after the blow is attempted (and theoretically landed). A Kindred cannot activate Celerity to interrupt an action they don't know is coming, even if the activation is Reflexive. They CAN reflexively heal or activate Resilience as soon as the blow is landed to mitigate damage. That's more or less how I see reflexive Mage Armor activation, at which point armors in Arcanum like Matter or Death might be a better choice in the moment (general armor or resistance to mundane damage) as it can be applied immediately. Mage Armor that increases defense could be activated in response, but the initial damage is already done. They just get the benefits from that point on.
Okay so on mage armor. It calls out defense bonus armors can be used and affect surprise attacks because surprise attacks negate the targets defense. The corollary is not that other armors can't be used, it's that when your normal defense is negated, you can still use your defense bonus from a mage armor. Mage armors that provide an armor rating can be used against a surprise attack, and function normally, which is why they were not called out.
Clash of Wills: Is Gnosis + Arcanum. It doesn't say highest Arcanum, so whatever you got that is most applicable is what I would use. A ghost is using something against you and you only have low Death. Suddenly rolling with an attribute doesn't sound so bad.
Mage Armor: Reflexive action, meaning you can activate it at any time, all of them work with surprises attacks in their own way, the specific mention of those with defence is because normally you can't use defence on surprise attacks. They made mage armor work like this to make the game faster and better, instead of every mage needing to spend time and have a mage armor spell on 24/7, now it is an attainment that is basically always on. Agree that they should have worded it better. Now it's just for the cost of 1 mana you can choose what sort of supernatural defence you apply from those that you personally know, with death you can be the same as a vampire is at all times without any cost...
Honestly, I disagree with the idea that you should lose access to merits if you lose status in an order. Specifically for Masque, it's a technique that can be taught. I'd allow the player to keep it... but that effectively means them moving to the GotV's most wanted list, permanently (maybe not as extreme, depending on why they lost status, but they'd probably be heavily watched). So yeah, a defector to the Seers could keep using Masque, but they better keep their head down forever, because the Guardians would be combing heavens and earth to find them.
I feel like other gamelines understand this issue a lot more. Like for instance, in CtL you can switch Courts but your Court Merits are given via that Court's Bargain so you lose access to them. Similarly with Werewolf the Forsaken you gain benefits from your Tribe via the Tribe's Totem Spirit, so leaving the Tribe means you lose access to the Tribe's Ban and Merits.
There should be some sort of way for Sympathetic Connections to Orders be used to allow access to these abilities. But also a reason why other Orders or Seers cannot replicate the effect. Maybe it has something to do with access to the Watchtowers or something. But in any case its very much a gameplay mechanic that doesn't quite mesh well with the theme I think.
Oh, I agree. I could see it as a form of resonancy/sympathy with the order. You don't need to just be good with the Guardians, you need to accept that guardians are right on some level. To accept their methods and thinking.
If it was just a simple skillset (here I am refuting my own point), I don't doubt that the Seers (and other Pentacle orders, probably) would be putting considerable resources into reverse engineering it.
Similar with the Adamant Hand merit. It may seem like a simple casting/fighting technique, but you need to internalize some of the Adamantine Arrow philosophy to allow yourself to move and think (cast/fight) that way.
Well, that's my Friday-night ramble, at least. :D
@ It makes me wonder how since mages are so unlimited, why are these powers limited? I just love diving into these rabbit holes. 😬
@@AwkwardGMCorbin Oh, I can totally relate. Theorycrafting can be like crack. :D
Just discussing philosophy and morality from mage perspective can be incredibly fun.
One thing that kind of helps me square the limitation and power of mages is the need for a mage to fit it all into a specific worldview.
Yes, a mage can snap their fingers and enact a specific effect. But how do they do that exactly? What goes on in their mind?
A lot of players (and storytellers, I've been guilty of this myself) often skip the step of tying the yantras and the whole casting process into an imago. And that's a shame because, I think that, more than anything, really emphasizes how important paradigm is to a mage, even a CofD mage. Shame Awakening seems to be avoiding that word.
Anyway, my point!
Magic is more than just "I know magic therefore I can break the rules." Rituals are important, the process of casting is important. It's not enough to snap your fingers and say I want this done (well, it can be if the fingernsapping symbolizes something but THAT'S NOT THE POINT!).
It's also about finding symbolism in our actions and the world. The Guardians specifically tend to take on the roles of people who make hard choices so others won't have to. To the point where they reach the point of extreme abnegation of themselves and can lose themselves in their duties.It's also steeped in secrecy, deception, and masques (in more ways than one). The Masque merit therefore seems like a natural outgrowth of that mindset. They're about deception and self-negation in the extreme. So, in order to learn the merit... you need to adopt some of their philosophy. That's something a Seer would have a hard time doing.
I wish I had this much drive to write for work. :D I'd be rich by now. 😂
I hate all versions of mage so I was hoping for more here
More in what way.
Oh wait this is new world right
Yeah this is Mage the Awakening. Apologies if that wasn’t clear 😅😬. I should probably update the thumbnail.
i gotta say, drew does seem to be giving the "drawbacks" of mage too much credit. reach, for example, i have never once needed more reach than i had. combat? i got a rote to kill and everything else only needs instant casting. anything else? one reach is enough to do anything you need to do.
resisting magic is very bad in general. withstands are not a universal thing, but it very much should be. all spells should be resisted by _something_ even if the subject is perfectly willing. clash of wills is also very much not fair between splats; the splats that rely on attributes are going to be worse off in my experience (because abilities are almost always the best choice for exp), and certain splats have less incentive to raise their pure power stat. not that the system is designed for fairness between splats, of course, even the multisplat lines tell you that.
i would apply wisdom _only_ to magic and make it _very_ strict, if only to encourage people to use otherwise objectively worse (read: mundane) actions. why would the mind mage ever just talk to someone otherwise?
lore-wise, i don't think anything but beast really contradicts each other in the things the book says are gospel (beast does imply that everything is kinda related, which is just impossible), and very few things are said as gospel as chronicles is almost entirely without set lore.
So, some comments and things that may have been missed during some of these discussions:
Sensory Range
- I agree with Corbin here, the amount of penalties received for using sensory range is negligible. Drew said it does take paradox, but until you are Gnosis 5+ the amount of Paradox is not really that intense for 1 reach over the limit for a spell. Mainly because you can use your Dedicated Magical Tool for a -2 paradox reach reduction meaning it would require 3 consecutive turns of casting with sensory range in combat before you even have a single normal die. That is also assuming you don't spend any mana. Aimed spells are just not worth it and are only niche cases when they are.
Mage Armor
- Mage Armor being reflexive is still broken and being used in surprise rounds makes 0 sense to me. I feel that Mage Armor should not be applicable at all in surprise rounds. Point to Corbin
Pattern Restoration
- Giving the point to Drew, it isn't that broken honestly.
Abyssal Entities
- This is your excuse to have fun, they are mechanic less for a reason. Point to Drew
Withstand
- Point to Corbin... I hate Withstand, it breaks the mold (in a bad way) of mechanics
Counterspell/Dispel
- Point to Corbin, this is something a lot of other splats/entities just can't deal with the huge range of powers mages have.
Clash of Wills
- Point to Corbin, this is another mechanic mages are meant to win, just facts and it is unfair.
Acts of Hubris
- Point for Drew, this is a fairly well engineered mechanic
XP Costs
- Point to Corbin, Mage is stupid with XP costs, very OP splat.
Obsessions
- Point to Drew, these are well designed.
Lore Section
- Point to Drew, use what you want and throw everything else away, simple.
6 points for Corbin
5 points for Drew
If Withstand & CoW were handled differently, I think Mage would be an excellent game.
I'm gonna disagree with your first take. Bringing paradox to zero still risks paradox. You just reduce it to a chance die. Which means that second and third spell that would have been at zero now start gaining more and more paradox. I agree that this is manageable, but only initially, especially because early characters have to deal with spell control issues. 1 reach for instant. 1 reach for sensory. 1 stacking reach for every spell you maintain past your limit. This is before we get into extended durations as the next very common thing. And you really almost need to reach for it early game because you don't have many dice to roll. You get 2 or 3 Yantra limit early on and each is giving 1 or 2 dice at most. In combat or tense situations, you likely only have time for a single reflexive Yantra use. This means only rotes are gonna be safe to cast quickly for most characters.
This feeds to my next quibble. Mage gets a lot for their XP on Gnosis especially, True. But a Low Gnosis Mage feels extremely limited in a way no other splat does. The Mage needs Gnosis and Arcana to expand Dice and Reach. A Vampire can make efficient purchases of skills and attributes that have very broad performance increases. They don't really need Blood Potency much at all. A Vampire can just get incrementally stronger faster while the mage is being blueballed saving their xp for Gnosis and Arcana. And their rate of Arcana is also slowed with Gnosis gating, too. Anyway, I don't know if you can say these are equal efficiency rates, but I haven't seen it mentioned. This might still be unbalanced, but I dont think its as bad as presented.
@@radriel6983 You are taking the paradox example to an extreme honestly.
As for the XP costs, it is heavily unbalanced. Compare a 15 XP mage to a 15 XP vampire and the cracks show fast.
@@Malakai2006 You talk like CofD games are like D&D? Unfair? Mages have always been the strongest splat both in WoD and CofD. Because they are not your D&D wizards, D&D wizards are *sorcerers*. Sorcerers in both WoD iterations are waaaay weaker than Vampires and Mages. Awakened magick is by design, powerful. Except Abyssal entities, every other supernatural is weak against a Mage who knows what they are. The point of Mage games, is to learn the truth about the nature of a creature when you fight them. They do not know for sure if Vampire is affected by fire, sun, garlic etc. etc. There are spirit entities who, when possess a human, are blood-drinkers but not Vampires from Requiem. No WoD/CofD creature is designed in mind with that they will go toe to toe with other splats. You can banish a spirit, burn a vampire, silver poison a werewolf like *bam*. The real challenge is to know them, find them and then being prepared. So you are comparing something like it is D&D, these are not character classes that has to be viable and balanced.
@@MissZencefilthe real point of mage games is to question if “should I do a thing?”. As to your unfair comment, fair enough. They have a numerical advantage.
@@Malakai2006 I don't think its that extreme of an example. You can't have higher than 3 for an Arcana to start with. Your other Arcana can't be higher than 2. Outside of your rotes, the amount of free reach you have is extremely limited at start and so is your dicepool. And unless you sacrificed 5 or 10 Merit dots for extra starting Gnosis(if your ST even allowed it), you can have at most 1 ongoing spell before you need to start paying extra reach. Your dice pools in the moment are pretty small and it will be hard to create a dicepool higher than 5 on most spells cast in the moment. This means that sacrificing dice for extended spellfactors is likely out. The pressure to spend reach to solve the issue of low dice is high. Instant casting, Advanced Duration, Sensory Range(maybe even Indirect Sensory), and maybe even unique reach abilities are all commonly used. -2 Paradox is only going to have so much mileage and if you can't solve a problem in one or two spells, it could start to get somewhat risky. An extreme example would go pretty far beyond the options I listed here. There are quite a lot of things to spend reach on.
This leads to my next point. At low Gnosis and Arcana, playing a mage feels painful. So at the low end, although you are definitely getting more per xp on Gnosis and Arcana, you also need that power boost desperately. You can't increase your ability to reach or to gain dice for spells without it. So between Gnosis 1 and 3, this disparity in efficiency doesn't feel as egregious in context compared to just looking at the raw numbers. Past this point I think it starts getting unbalanced.
My point of comparison isn't just looking at what Blood Potency gets you, but rather in what 9xp gets you. A Vampire who spends on 3 skill dots and a specialty gains potentially more dice to supernatural powers than the Mage and also improved their ability to do something mundane by the same amount. The Mage only got better at magic and at first the gains feel like they're catching up rather than surpassing the vampire. So maybe this is a long way of saying linear vampire, quadratic mage. Its still unbalanced, just not nearly so much at the low end.
Frankly this is a bit tedious.
What is?