Well after making this vid some time ago I decided to revisit the topic and discuss the waco comments I have received. PART TWO - STOP USING DECK SCREWS - th-cam.com/video/IfCuqqN9g4o/w-d-xo.html
Philips head screws are CRAP. Use Robertson head screws. Also, there are many grades of deck screws up here in Canada. I've been using them for over 40 years. Sorry bud, you are just flat out wrong. It's way easier to take out deck screws to replace a board than it is to beat the board out because it's nailed in. Been there and done it. I've built many houses from start to finish, from the ground up. Nails and nail guns are great for framing, but not for decks. There are structural grade screws too, which make them as durable as nails for sheer strength.
Thin neck screws that thread are bigger are useless unless you pre drill an set drill on lower torque settings rather have square head wood over screws over Phillips or Torx bit
Screws for deck framing are a must. Movement from swelling by moisture and temperatures back the nails out. Learn to frame correctly so your stucture isn't supported by your fastners.
Yes, if you're building so that your structure is just being held in place by screws, and the screws aren't supporting the weight, you're absolutely fine. For major support posts and beams I use lag screws or carriage bolts anyway.
Just my opinion.. I have built structures with deck screws and I have used nails. After 3 hurricanes the deck screws held up and the nails pulled out and the structure fell. Most of the contractors I know have switched to deck screws because they hold up better in the adverse weather we have around here.
Donald deck screws are just fine for places recommended. This video is all about showing, deck screws are not to be used everywhere as by your local building codes.
If your load is being carried by shear stress on a common fastener, it doesn’t matter whether it’s a nail or a screw, it’s a bad design!!!! Load should be carried by something resting on something that’s resting on something right down to the foundation. Only exception to this in my mind is engineered joints where everything is carefully specified for the application… i.e. joists in joist hangers.
James I've seen deck screws used where joist hangers are required to were deck screws are the only attachment for a joist and no crossbeam support below , oh man it seems many need to stay away from deck building 😅😅
Hi Rick I use nails and screws , whatever the customer wants. Nails 1/2 the price of screws . Screws or nails have their challenges but the things I see with screws is totally wrong and against all building codes when used incorrectly. Time is money and nails from a nail gun is less time so it's up to the customer. Cheers 👍
The problem with deck screws is that it’s hard to get enough galvanizing material on the screw and to be smooth enough to screw in. I had a 30 year old deck made with CCA, and a couple of boards needed to be replaced. Most of the screws snapped while removing because there was next to no steel left in the threaded part of the screw. Maybe it’s no so bad in ACQ, but I’m not sure you can find any 30 year old decks from ACQ to compare. The Simpson Strong Tie nails and galvanized bolts in the deck had no visible issues. Admittedly, they were horizontally installed, so got less water accumulation. Using screws did make it easier to remove and replace a couple of boards in comparison to nails.
I have a 20 year old shed that was built in a seismic zone with black phosphate indoor drywall screws that still is intact. I’d never use those screws myself on projects but enough screws will hold most non critical projects.
Screws will not sheer that easily if they are completely embedded in wood. If you Nick a nail it can break the same way. I've been a builder for over 30 years and used both and never seen anything I've ever built have a catastrophic structural failure with screws, nails or bolts. It's all in how you build and support it.
Yes exactly as you never used a deck screw with a joist hanger or depended on a deck screw for a structural load but yes some diyers do it all the time so this video is for those that just don't know the difference, . Cheers
Screws provide a more permanent clamping force. Less movement between surfaces creates a stronger load capacity. Think of loose legs on a chair as a example. Proper sized fasteners are key to a strong joint. Using nails or screws shear strength to support a load is a bad idea. A proper design with the wood carrying the shear load is a lot safer.
Deck screws aren’t “crap” they are hardened, therefore no sheer strength. So you’re right they aren’t structural, but it’s not because they are crap, it’s because structural isn’t their purpose.
My home is in area where 50 -60 mph winds are common, with temperatures down to minus mid teens and up to 110s f. Screws are reliable, nails are not. This is my experience for some decades. Contractors use nails because they much faster to install, not reliable.
Deck screws have a higher yield strength compared to a nail. Therefore, a deck screw will resist deformation (bending) more than a nail. Both will workharden when bent, but because the deck screw has a higher yield strength it will fracture sooner when it is severely bent as shown in this video. If your framing moves this much, there are other problems with the design of the structure. I believe the the cost of a quality deck screw is the real reason screws are not used. An advantage of using screws is they are much easier to remove if there is a framing issue during construction or a modification of the framing is needed during a renovation. With respect to corrosion, if a powder coated deck screw is scratched exposing the iron substrate, it will quickly corrode at this localized defect in the coating. However, a galvanized (Zinc) coating will actually repair itself (Zn adjacent to the defect will oxidize and expand to cover the exposed iron substrate) when it is scratched and placed in a corrosive environment such as humid air or chemicals in pressure treated wood. For maximum corrosion resistance, always choose the thickest hot dipped galvanized coating available.
I'm a retired contractor, over 40 yrs. I don't recommend using galvanized nails or screws in treated wood. The chemicals in treated wood has a erosive effect on galvanized metal. Causing support failure. I've seen entire decks collapse collapse. collapse. collapse.
Coated deck screw, not black or galvanized are fine for treated wood. It is the copper in the treatment that causes the steel to rust. Screws must be harder than nails otherwise they will twist off when you drive them in. Brittle does not mean weaker. Preform the same vise test with aluminum screw nails and they will be brittle.
I just had a stripped deck screw from Home Depot that was sticking out of a 2x4 by about an inch and a half. I probably bent it over with a hammer and straightened it again 5 or 6 times before it broke. Good deck screws are annealed and are very flexible.
Thanks for the comment Clint - I will revisit this video and deck screws in the future and try multiple brands of deck screws and put then all to the test. Cheers buddy
I'd rather use structural screws than nails when framing things but I'm no profession. GRK and Fastenmaster (Timberlok) make excellent structure screws that meet or exceed nails in shearing strength and are building code approved. They will bend like the nail in the video but will need much more force to do so. The downside is that they are way more expensive than nails and deck screws, but they have way more load bearing (shear) strength and have clamping force that nails don't have. They will also break faster if your boards are moving around a lot to the point they start to bend (if your frame is doing that then you have other problems...). Watch some videos on GRK R4 multipurpose screws or Timberlok/Ledgerlok fasteners. They both also have code approved screws that need no pilot hole that replace 3/8 Lag screws up to 8 inches long.
Good tips Steve for the ones that weren't aware of the differences between nails and deck screws. The best thing is to use the correct fastener for its intended function. I like deck screws only for fastening down decking and they are too brittle for lateral forces. So, yes, they are not good for construction purposes. I don't use plain nails, even the hot-dipped galvanized ones for decking because in a few years they will work themselves up. But using nails that has the adhesive on them such as for pneumatic or electric nailers are okay as the adhesive will hold them in there.
Terry i've tried removing a nail gun nail and it's real tough with the adhesive that holds them together. I have yet had a nail from a nail gun work its way up as regular spiral nails do. The ring shank nails for my nail gun are impossible to remove. Even screws have to be tightened down after the PT wood shrinks at times. Take Care buddy.
I don’t know where you’re buying your deck screws but there’s several different types, there’s cheap ones and there’s good structural ones. Good deck screws beat nails, hands down every time. Shear strength is not always as good, but that really isn’t a factor on a deck, tensile strength is way better, holding power is multiple times better, nails will always eventually gradually back out, everyone that’s ever had a deck nailed down knows they’ve had to go along with a hammer occasionally and knock down migrating nail heads.
Home depot is where these were bought. Lots of different screws and different certifications so finding the right fastener and build to code is the best choice.
I built an 8x16 foot pool deck in Michigan 25 years ago and used deck screws. It's still standing today and shows absolutely no sign of aging other than graying of the pressure-treated wood. Screw shanks are bright and clean. Square and level. So there's that.
That was interesting. Deck screws are hardened and that makes them brittle. However, most of the loads on light structural constructions are static. Impact stress and static stress are very different. In your calculations of static force when you double the weights, the forces double as well. With dynamic stress its squared, times itself. Anything that has impact forces on it will have very high momentary stress, but if it just sits, the forces are lighter. That you can break the screw with a hammer in shear is not an outstanding surprise. The wood however is not rigid like the steel vise and getting pure shear is not common. With nails, the flexation of the wood can work them loose through the seasons. As you say, some products work best when they are used as designed.
@@SteveRobReviews Vibration is a nasty one such as on steps or anything that has high winds. Thats why they put lock washers on things. The momentary shock loads of vibration while short in duration and not small in intensity. The lock washer takes up the vibration by keeping the load on the fastener constant. All things stretch and that's why screws have become attractive. I noticed you mentioned galvanized nails and I agree but for one thing. Galvanized nails don't lock in. When you are framing with galvanized nails it is easy to pull stuff apart and make correcitons. Same with uncoated nails until they get a coat of rust. In a month, nothing can get plain nails apart except a saw or bulldozer.
Im not a carpenter.. I mean I have built many things, and 90% of the time I admit to using screws. I figure a screw isnt going to back out over time like a nail can do. Never had any failures, but certainly cant argue with your little demonstration there. Might rethink things from now on. As far as the outhouse build and a video, I vote do it! I would find it interesting! Dont hear of many people building an outhouse these days. I actually have an outhouse here at my house from years gone by when that was the only option. Ahhh the good ol days right? LOL! Great video Steve!
Good video. The key thing to understand with any screws is that they're meant to clamp things together (load trying to pull the boards apart), not hold shear (side load, like the hammer blow in the video). The screws are much better when clamping is what you want to do, since they're threaded, whereas nails will back out. The nails are much better at holding shear loads. It's not that deck screws are crap, they're just not meant for shear.
Awesome tip Steve, unfortunately I made my raised garden beds using deck screws and I can already notice one side is bulging, I bet a screw broke from the pressure of the soil. Great tip, thanks man.
I agree with you on the coated deck screws. I think the stainless screws I used will hold up to the salt used in PT wood, but cost-wise it is very expensive. I used the hot dipped galvanized deck nails on my front porch 20 years ago and they're still in good shape.
Jay I have yet to see SS deck screws up here but the Txsviking showed some he gets in Texas and they look much thicker than coated Deck screws. I like them like everyone else but they do snap real easy . Cheers buddy.
The newer pressure treated lumber (acq) has a much higher salt content, thats why bright nails don't last. I've seen fences fall apart two years after they were built. As for deck screws they are handy especially for remodeling in houses with plaster. They are hardened that's why they break. If you properly construct something the fastener does not bear the load. The fastener merely keeps the lumber from moving. When fasteners must carry a load there should be strapping or other hardware involved....
"HMM, I didn't think the gun was loaded" :) Good tip, I would have gone for the deck screws right away. I knew they broke easy, but never thought how that would effect structural integrity. Good tip Steve
It's a common screw used for just about everything but be cautious if you ever have to have it inspected by a local building inspector . I look forward to building the outhouse soon. Cheers Lee
I've watched some videos that illustrate how nailed joists are stronger than screwed...what a difference in strength. What are the correct screws to use for joints? I like the idea of that nail gun, no air hose needed? Beauty! Great vid Steve I'll bring up this topic this weekend in regards to building a dock.
Its different around the world I assume but its best practices and building codes that suggest correct fasteners. Liability in using the wrong fastener is where it gets interesting but for most homeowners building such things as an outhouse its outside of the code I think. LOL
Sold my old Paslode (not paying for gas) and added a DeWalt nailer (battery), glad I did. Don't smell the gas and the gas cartridge doesn't end up in the dump. Never had a problem. Battery-powered tools are the best! While I agree that you wouldn't want to use screws for structural (lateral holding strength) when heavy load-bearing, they are great for attaching deck boards. I think the video should have shown the benefits of using them to hold boards in place and firmly to the joists, which nails do not do well. Always use 16d galvanized and joist hangers along with joist nails for the framing.
Well said and I agree . The choice between nails and screws for many comes down to cost but sometimes you save upfront and pay after :) Both have their place and knowing their place is what this vid brings up. Cheers Christopher
Ok, yes, steel deck screws break. BUT you can use SS, stainless steel deck screws, they do not break, they will outlast nails, they can bend more cycles than nails. Other interesting thing is bronze wood screws for boats. You would think they might break, but they usually never break, and a wood boat has a ton of movement all the time for many decades of life. Of course bronze cost too much for houses. Nails are the best cheapest option. But my experience using SS screws versus deck screws, is the deck screws break and the SS screws have never broken. I dont even like using deck screws on the top boards of decks.
Your on the money Steve....Just got back from camp and the black flies are in season....me and my buddy came back a day early....could not stand the flies any more....guess i`m getting old but that tip bout the screws and not using for erecting any kind a construction is spot on....had a electrical friend a mine wanted to do extraction on his camp with screw and he said it was the way to go and I told him if that was his way I was not helping but if he wanted i`d bring the air guns and even supply the nails and I`d be there and I think I converted him....the new pressure is I think some kind of sugar base....they can't use arsenic any more and I seen the pressure treated wood rotting around a normal rusting nail but even hot dip rust.....I a the camp have a chain thats ten years old and its hot dip and you could not tell to look at it.....must go ....lots of backed up movies and messages and ....ah I have to hire a secretary but I have to pay out of my pension money....ah I`ll ask my wife If she wants to be my secretary....SALUTE my friend
Unsure who reads the title of a box labeled “deck screw” and doesn’t think, even for a second, that perhaps they’re specifically for a singular purpose. The reason most people use nails is because they’re speedy to install and a cheap price for higher quantity. Unfortunately, there is nothing keeping them from coming loose during seasonal narrowing and expansion of wood, which is why l anyone who does even cursory research would avoid them in use of a quality deck. Spend the money, get Zinc coated, high end deck screws with a *star* head bit, not a square drive, and you won’t regret it. This conversation always neglects the key factor in why people use nails at all. They’re fast and can be driven in with a pneumatic or electric gun 5 times faster than screws. That being said, if you have the time, use zinc coated screws, and coat them with weather proof varnish after installing. If you’re against the deadline, use a nail gun. Screws will never be beaten by nails in any field except shear strength…which isn’t of concern in a deck anyway that’s stationary and isn’t subject to left and right movement unless you majorly botched laying the foundation. Will have to disagree completely on using nails for a deck IF you have the time to use screws. With modern drivers and enormous battery packs, it takes little to no effort to drive a deck screw nowadays.
4:40 I see what you’re getting at, finally. The metal used in the screws is hardened to give them the torsion strength needed to not snap off as easily when being driven in, but that compromises their sheer strength. Nails use a more ductile type of steel and therefore are made for and perform better under sheer loading. Now, it should be noted that there are lots of types of screws, so the above is to be taken as a _general_ rule. Good point, you just took a few minutes to get there. It’s definitely Worth considering the forces and environmental circumstances acting on the structure being built and choosing the appropriate fasteners.
I have built decks for a few years always use screws for the decking. Over a number of years had to replace a number of decks because nails were used instead of screws. Usually by someone flipping house just to say house has a new deck.
Deck screws are designed to be used for deck boards as well as fence boards . They are definitely not designed as a universal replacement for joist hanger fasteners or lag screws ect . For the most part screws vs nails for fences or deck boards are a choice . Cheers Steve 👍
Though that box of strip nail says hot dipped, I have my doubts. Typically hot dipped hand nails have a very rough surface. The only way I'm aware of that galvanization can be done to have a smooth surface, is electro plate.
i been snapping deck screws for 30 years , like the person already said in the comments , the forces on a screw and shearing effects all come into play, ill use screws for just about anything unless it really should have a bolt, when using the new pressure treated stuff you simply need the right coated fasteners, triple coated nails in my region, and the reasonable lifespan for a deck is 20 years , anything past 20 years is just a bonus
This has to do with the temper of the different metals. Screws last longer and have higher mechanical bonding, but are thinner and hard tempered. Nails are usually cheaper by a lot (which is why they are used) thicker and have a softer temper. Anything that requires more sheer strength then a screw can hold should be using structural bolts and brackets. Nails are why homes fall apart in 50 mph winds. Nails were originally invented with a soft temper and to be driven THROUGH an object and folded over on the other side which is far superior to modern uses.
We've all heard the phrase "dead as a door nail". Many years ago when doors were made a long nail was hammered through the door and the sharp end bent down with a hammer to ensure it wouldn't back out. That made the nail non-reuseable i.e. "dead".
Excellent information. While I use screws for their compression abilities I also use brackets with bolts (not lag screws) to through-connect things like rafters to top plates.
To explain why pressure treated eats metals the C in ACQ pressure treated lumber is copper. When dissimilar metals come in contact with each other in the presence of moisture/water (or other conductor) the less noble of the metals gets eaten (corrodes) by the stronger metal. It's called a galvanic reaction. A typical nail/screw will deteriorate very fast in pressure treated because of this. A galvanized screw/nail has a zinc coating that's sacrificial and gets eaten by the pressure treated wood, but takes a long time. Once the wood eats through the galvanized (zinc) coating the steel underneath will quickly be eaten following. The more coating the longer it will last (why electroplating is least protective and double-dipped galvanized is very protected). Some screws/nails are coated with a special coating that prevents moisture coming in contact with the metal of said nail/screw resisting galvanic reaction. Many manufactures actually use a combo, they hot dip galvanize and then cover with a polymer (more coatings the better) as it's cheaper than double-dipping and offers more protection than a single dip.
Depends on the direction of force {load} Nails have better shear screws have more tensile. If it's where two pieces can slide against each other on the horizantal nails better, if it's where the direction of pull is vertical screws are better.
I use deck screws, Torq? In framing as well as decks and privacy fence inst. , it’s easier/ much less painful than holding a nail gun or the joint shock from hammering, of course I’m 65 with plenty of joint damage and DDD.
Michael, an impact driver works far better than an ordinary driver-drill. I have arthritis, and when I bought the impact driver several years ago I was amazed at the difference and kicking myself for not having bought one much sooner!
That's true for impact loading screws are carburized and heat treated to high hardness and strength but are brittle and may even break during rapid torquing but they resist creep due to temperature change and water exposure that will make the nails pull and loose grip of time. Screws hold fast - this is why they are used to stop old oak and maple tongue and groove floors from creaking after the nails loosen over time.
Those screws are meant for the planking boards, not the supporting construction. When used where they do belong, they anchor much better than nails of comparable length and normally don't work loose with weathering like nails do. (Had to hammer down plenty of nails and put screws besides them in areas of minor warping on a deck a few years old.) If building a deck, the answer would be to use both and then some. Just make sure you use the fasteners best suited for each aspect of construction. (And sometimes the correct fastener is neither screw nor nail, but through-holes with proper brackets, washers, nuts, and bolts.)
The screws and nails you buy at most lumberyards rust and do not last as long as the treated wood. I recommend stainless nails. Maze nails are the best for galvanized, maze ring shank, once you pound them in they will not come out. Stainless ring shank is best for structural but stainnless screws are ok for deck or non structural areas. Some stainless screws can be kind of weak and break off while screwing though.
soooooo....... this video saved my deck... i started yesterday tacking the beams together... with deck screws.... guess my morning will consist of adding nails..... baha THANK YOU FOR THIS VIDEO.
Your point is valid in an earthquake zone like California. For the majority of the country screws are ok. Watch Canadian builders ad they use screws for everything. This video could have been 6:09 shorter
I'm replacing rotted 2x8 fascia boards around the edge of my roof. Earlier tonight, I *almost* bought a box of 4" deck screws at Home Depot. Fortunately, I put them back and decided to do more research. Tonight, I found your video. The demonstration at the end with the vice did it for me. THANK YOU!
I had deck screws holding the door hinge on my old outhouse and noticed last year two heads missing , just the shaft was there and I was wondering why the door felt wobbly , hahaha . I guess over time it loosened up and snapped the heads off.
Hi Edward 💯 % 👍 I just went on a small job to replace 14 deck boards on a huge deck , all with screws . All the screw heads were full of solid stain so it was a bear replacing the boards compared to nails . They both have their pros and cons . Cheers 👍
There are many things an average handyman just may not know. Good video. Lesson for everybody to do their homework. The best thing would be to get a job with a reputable contractor for 6 months and learn lots.
I've built fencing for horses and used three and half inch galvanized ring shank nails, and they lean against the wood and they rip wright out, then I started using three and half inch star bit screws they work way better then nails, especially around horses I've been in construction for 35 years nails are faster but not better than the wright screws, screws hold better and don't back out.
I never would of imagined that. but thinking of what is in pressure treated wood im not surprised. years ago they said the pressure treated wood has chemicals that are bad for the envirement. great tip. 😎👍
I don't think many even think about how easy they snap off. For fence boards and deck boards they're the best. I'm not sure what's in the new PT wood today , looks like food colouring now. LOL
Once they are in the frame they won’t suffer bending lateral impacts that can make them snap. GRK and Griprite both make corrosion resistant construction screws with plenty of shear strength that work great. You don’t need a nail gun. Every weekend warrior has a cordless drill.
Weekend warriors use deck screws in contravention of normal building practices as well as local building codes. Weekend warriors for the most part are not trained in construction as I see so many instances were deck screws are used where all building codes reject their use. Being informed what fastener to use is definitely not commonly known or you can be a Weekend warrior and take your chances 😉
Thanks Steve. I've understood how weak deck screws are for a long time. I kept trying to explain to people. Just because they're "deck" screws doesn't mean you can build a deck out of them. Sure, they're okay for a deck being held down, but that's not structure. If I see them again, I'll tell them to watch your demonstration. :)
I have to say. I have lived at the same place for over 20 years. Anything that was put in with a nail unless it is a spiral nail came apart with just a hammer. Anything put together with deck screws had to have a salwsall to take apart
Wonderful tip and example of why u don't use them in structure application. I really wish they would put a warning label on the screws to alert folks from making a mistake.
Thanks for the tips, and thanks for the tips from u guys in the comments! I've had nails pulling out on my own deck since i put in the new floor and replacing then w/screws. But will go with nails on any structural. I'm a handyman, wood butchering being on the bottom of my favorite things to fix but gonna get a call now and then for it!
Your absolutely correct that they are brittle. I like those twisted nails that you showed, smooth ones pull right out. That being said, I have pushed deck screws to the max. building scaffolding. From the view point of metalworking there is a strong force when tightening two smooth surfaces together that resists the shear force. I built my house with 10'-13' high ceilings and made a false floor throughout the house so that I could install 4'X10' T111 to the ceiling by myself using two to three deck screws at the end of 2"X6" with 3/4" plywood on top. After taking the false floor down I found a couple of places where there was just one screw from where I assembled it myself, so that the other end swivels, and then I forgot to put one to two more there.
Id like to see a test with screws actually trying to shear two boards screwed vs nailed. I get nails can bend many times like that and not break but when you screw 2 boards tightly alot of strength also comes from the friction and compression the screws provide from squeezing the material together. Ive unscrewed old stuff and had to still pry the board off afterwards. So in my opinion these tests arent fair to how screws/nails would actually be used.
The whole point is deck screws are not designed or allowed to be used as structural supports , check your local building code. People who dabble in construction use deck screws in places not allowed . Dog houses, garbage storage bins , sure but not for so many other places I've seen used. Cheers
Good to know. I'm hanging a 100 lb heavy bag from a 4x4 strung between two 2x10s with joist hangers and wanted to know which fastener to use. I'm going with the galvanized nails thanks to this video.
I've been using deck screws for deck construction for over 20 years. Except for the recent changes to the design of the screw, I can say that I've been very happy them, and (yes, still standing) the decks that I have constructed. I've never used a metal deck brace - they rust, break, and make for a wobbly structure. I believe your construction design is most important to building a safe decking structure - use notching where pragmatic, use reinforced wood bracing in every possible way; in this way, deck screws can be used everywhere. Plus, the poor sod who needs to replace a board later, or break down the deck, doesn't have to destroy the wood or kick the dog to do it, and the deck screws can be RE-USED - I've reused them after 5 years and they are still as good as new.
Yes! Lag screws, hanger brackets, lag bolts and structural wood screws, and spiral nails. You are right - love my deck screws, but not for structure. Well put.
The thing is that the fasteners, nails/screws, should only ever hold the pieces of wood together, they should never be used to carry load, other than in laminating a header or beam in which case the shear value is what matters not the material itself. For structural members all the weight should be carried by wood that runs from the load to the foundation, such as trimmer studs or posts which can be held in place by either nails or screws.
Exactly but it seems many have no skill for construction at all so they build stuff that is scarry wrong as they don't know that deck screws are not magical things that can hold any load . 😉
I once built 30 wooden bakers racks for a concrete company. The owner had built a prototype using your Paslode Nail Gun. Under load, his bakers rack never made it across the floor the first time without falling apart. Like I said, I built 30 of them, except I used 3" galvanized drywall screws. In the years of use under load, there was never a failure. But I was not using pressure treated wood either. Those deck screws that you showed will rust out and snap in about 10 years if used on an exterior deck with pressure treated wood. I have replaced 2 decks so far this year that used those deck screws. Very easy to take apart using a crowbar. I am trying the stainless-steel drywall screws now backed by 1/2" carriage bolts. Much more expensive
While I've never worked in construction, I do a lot of my own work around the house. I have a 16 x 16 deck that I built and put a flat, pitched roof on. I used nothing but coated deck screws! Ten years and still standing, even survived a tornado that passed by less than a 100 feet and took down a 75 foot pine! I also have a wood privacy fence that was put up the year before I bought this house. It has become a ritual, every spring, one of the first jobs is to go around the entire fence and replace all the loose nails with screws! I've yet to see a screw come loose like a nail does. Just saying....
Yes deck screws are fine when used as designed - Most have gone to screws because of the deck board nails poping up and I agree deck boards do better with nails. I do revisit this vid in part 2 -th-cam.com/video/IfCuqqN9g4o/w-d-xo.html
Ive built a few decks and i cant ever remember a shearing force , like your hammer demonstration , happen to a screw driven flush. SO this is a non issue. Try driving your fastener in the edge at an angle and it will reduce pop ups. But for me screws on an angle in the edge win every time. Nothing showing either.
Lea the shear strength sure is good to know in the north . Built many of decks and seen hundreds of deck screw heads just shear off on the stem from hot to cold temps . I won't use #8 , just #10 if I can or SS screws. Cheers 👍
@@SteveRobReviews I live in the north as well...ive never seen deck screws shear by the hundreds...I wouldn't use deck screws to carry any structural load, but If used for decking I just haven't seen anything of the sort besides a few here or there
Hey yes Steve! I just came over from Papa Texas Channel 😊 he gave both you and me a shout out, so I thought I'd head on over to show my support. I built a greenhouse last summer and just need to finish putting it up and I have used a lot of deck screws in the past. Excellent video, very informative!
Perhaps deck screws break under stress more easily than nails but I've built decks and not had a problem with the screws. It's the wood that's always the problem, the stuff decays. :)
I agree the PT wood today is not so great . I'm in a climate of cold weather and lots of ice and snow so #8 deck screws snap easily. In warm climates I hear they are just fine . Cheers
@@SteveRobReviews interesting. I used deck screws over nails because I had no nail gun and didn't want to beat myself up. I guess I can double up screws and nails just to be safe..am in a warm climate. But with structural , it's better safe than sorry.
Whew!!! I’m glad I used nails for the structural part of my deck. I did use the screws for the redwood and cedar boards. I did in case it got damaged. It’ll be easier to remove instead of tearing it out.
In regards to structural support, is there a difference between "deck" screws and other screws, like steel wood screws? What's your definition of "deck screw"?
Yes, absolutely, some screws are certified for structural use . So many fasteners to choose from as long as their recommended in local building codes. Deck screws are only allowed in non structural load bearing areas where specific fasteners are mandated. Deck screws sold labeled deck screws are only rated to be used as deck screws in specific areas.
my dad built a 40x60 shop using nothing but 3" deck screws back in 2000 and it hasn't fell down yet, so I'm gonna say they are fine for building an outhouse. Not sure what code says about this but The screws don't break like that if you have it going through a board like it should be. If you do the same test with one of those ring shank hot dipped nail gun nails you have there, they will break off too, they won't just bend over like a hammer driven nail. with that being said put 2 post in the ground nail a 2x6 or something horizontal across between them with a screw in one side and a nail in the other and hang weights off of the center of the board to see which side fails first. I prefer the ring shank hot dipped gun nails, cause they are faster but Im not sure that they are any better than screws as for as shear strength because I've broken plenty off.
Good points Chase. The deck screws may be more affected by climates with cold. If a building has to be inspected by a building inspector it most likely won't pass inspection with plain deck screws in a lot of jurisdictions. Was the shop your dad built inspected by your local building inspector.
no, its in a very rural area and was also 17 years ago so I'm not sure it would have even mattered. it's built similar to mine except not as tall, and he got a deal on wood poultry house trusses like mine but couldn't move em on his 18' trailer that i had in my video so he cut trusses in half with cutting blade on a grinder where the metal plates were, and joined them back together when he got em home with 2x material and deck screws, and then I kid you not we put each truss up by digging a hole with post hole diggers, standing a piece of 4" thin wall pipe in the ground and climbing a ladder hanging a chain hoist on it and hoisting them up. could only do about 1 truss a day time you put it back together and got it hoisted up and put lath boards on top.
Taking a deck for example, where in its construction are screws/nails actually structural? The fasteners used to attach a ledger to the house are, and those should never be nails always lags or ledgerloks. Stairs should also be attached with structural fasteners like lag bolts or ledgerloks.
I guess if you left half of the decks screws sitting outside of the wood you might have a point. But of course screws are not left outside of the wood. They are superior at holding because they bore into the material and the grooves hold them in place. Simple as that - common sense really.
Agreed. The difference is that screws are usually cast and nails are forged. A proper scientific method to test the actual sheer strength of the screw would be to fasten a board to another with an over hang and hit the over hanging board. Also to test the tensile strength you would need to pull straight out and the screw would win 100% because the nail is going to pull out. The 1/2" to 3/4" length used in the demonstration puts all the leverage force at the bend but it wouldn't bend much if actually inserted. Contractors use nail guns because they are lazy, fast, and cheap. Nails suck for a lot of reasons: wood expands and contracts with changing humidity and eventually nails start to pull out, nails are a hassle to deal with when maintaining old structures (like replacing boards), nails are great for sheer strength (to prevent catastrophic failure - they still have be removed after being bent in a stricture) but suck for tensile fastening, and nail guns are just freaking sloppy and lazy. I'll admit that screws do have the problem of being more brittle, but they are far superior fasteners than nails when it comes to something that needs to be maintained for decades. I wouldn't use your standard deck screw though; I use stainless steel screws.
I see the point. But one thing is the screws are supported inside the wood unlike the vise test at best the screw will bend just like the nails. I never seen screws shear off or snap unless they’re the black oxide sheet rock screws
Hmmm. I've only been doing it since deck screws became available with no real problems. Nails in severe climates (like the deep south) tend to loosen over the years in outdoor applications. They also rust. Screws properly driven will not be in bending stress (unless you don't know what you're doing with the structure), they will be in tension. Galvanized screws are a better choice but again, I've had no problems with coated deck screws. And I don't like Paslode nail guns because you have to buy the fuel cartridges (about $12 each). Yes, they are more convenient than pancake compressors and air guns, so you have to decide what you want out of a tool.
Up here the big box store deck screws just rust and corrode as the cold and ice snap many of the shanks off . In the south their ok but most diyers still use them in not so good locations. Cheers
Good Topic. Crazy thing is.... Big Boats that take alot of beatings from the oceans are made with alot of stainless screws in them...not nails, yet very old boats had nails because screws wernt as easily avail. Homes use nails and are still standing without using screws. Stainless Deck screws for decks are alot better than coated deck screws that will eventually rust away and be weak fasteners.
I built a deck and I used lag bolts for anything that holds weight the rest are deck screws. I ran out of deck screws in 1 place so I used nails, where I used nails the wood rotted out.
Interesting , so where you used nails the wood rotted out may be because of the nail coating you chose . Electro- Galvanized nails vs hot dipped Galvanized nails . I only use hot dipped as electo just rot over time compared to hot dipped.
Pull-out strength is also an important consideration I've also worked with screws that, while not as tough as nails, do have enough toughness for most jobs.
Yes Steve absolutely a must do use galvanize fasteners in pressure treated lumber in fact when I started the sky coop The guy at the lumberyard gave me the wrong nails and I probably used 100 or so before I realized I was going wrong on the Simpson ties straps I didn't bother pulling them out I just had to drill a second hole to Adam other faster next to the wrong one it really sucked not to mention set me back half a day 🐔
Screws are not intended for shear strength but they do have superior grip strength....this is why code required the use of galvanized clout nails to secure joist hangers because nails have the required shear strength.
Have used joist hanger screws made for that purpose, expensive but works well , has a lot of sheer force etc but it’s new thec prob only out like 5 years , hex heads, prob twice the diameter of a reg deck screw but the one thing is most of the stuff is not made here but in the “ C “ place and mostly crap
Well after making this vid some time ago I decided to revisit the topic and discuss the waco comments I have received. PART TWO - STOP USING DECK SCREWS - th-cam.com/video/IfCuqqN9g4o/w-d-xo.html
Philips head screws are CRAP. Use Robertson head screws. Also, there are many grades of deck screws up here in Canada. I've been using them for over 40 years. Sorry bud, you are just flat out wrong. It's way easier to take out deck screws to replace a board than it is to beat the board out because it's nailed in. Been there and done it. I've built many houses from start to finish, from the ground up. Nails and nail guns are great for framing, but not for decks.
There are structural grade screws too, which make them as durable as nails for sheer strength.
Thin neck screws that thread are bigger are useless unless you pre drill an set drill on lower torque settings rather have square head wood over screws over Phillips or Torx bit
Who would have thought that a video on screws versus nails could be so riveting?
Lol!!!
Fastenerating!
Like it
I’m just glad he didn’t screw around and got to the POINT. 😂
Riveting. 😉
Screws for deck framing are a must. Movement from swelling by moisture and temperatures back the nails out. Learn to frame correctly so your stucture isn't supported by your fastners.
Thats a great tip. Thanks
Yes, if you're building so that your structure is just being held in place by screws, and the screws aren't supporting the weight, you're absolutely fine. For major support posts and beams I use lag screws or carriage bolts anyway.
Just my opinion.. I have built structures with deck screws and I have used nails. After 3 hurricanes the deck screws held up and the nails pulled out and the structure fell. Most of the contractors I know have switched to deck screws because they hold up better in the adverse weather we have around here.
Donald deck screws are just fine for places recommended. This video is all about showing, deck screws are not to be used everywhere as by your local building codes.
If your load is being carried by shear stress on a common fastener, it doesn’t matter whether it’s a nail or a screw, it’s a bad design!!!! Load should be carried by something resting on something that’s resting on something right down to the foundation. Only exception to this in my mind is engineered joints where everything is carefully specified for the application… i.e. joists in joist hangers.
James I've seen deck screws used where joist hangers are required to were deck screws are the only attachment for a joist and no crossbeam support below , oh man it seems many need to stay away from deck building 😅😅
It's the truth, deck screws will shear easily compared to the same diameter nail. Good info to put out there Steve, you nailed it man.
Thanks buddy its a common fastener used by the uninformed in the wrong places. On an outhouse it's not so critical . LOL
Ozzstar hammered it good, on your comment eh....😂
You like using the nail gun simply because it's easier and quicker...nothing to do with holding ability. Nails will back out...screws will not.
Hi Rick
I use nails and screws , whatever the customer wants. Nails 1/2 the price of screws . Screws or nails have their challenges but the things I see with screws is totally wrong and against all building codes when used incorrectly. Time is money and nails from a nail gun is less time so it's up to the customer. Cheers 👍
The problem with deck screws is that it’s hard to get enough galvanizing material on the screw and to be smooth enough to screw in. I had a 30 year old deck made with CCA, and a couple of boards needed to be replaced. Most of the screws snapped while removing because there was next to no steel left in the threaded part of the screw. Maybe it’s no so bad in ACQ, but I’m not sure you can find any 30 year old decks from ACQ to compare. The Simpson Strong Tie nails and galvanized bolts in the deck had no visible issues. Admittedly, they were horizontally installed, so got less water accumulation. Using screws did make it easier to remove and replace a couple of boards in comparison to nails.
Summation of this video: Against shearing force, screws fail suddenly by breaking, nails fail "soft" by bending.
Nails can pop out over time. When I build my shed, I used a combination of nails (with my pneumatic nailer) and stainless steel screws).
Been using deckmate star drives for over 15 years. Never have seen a problem in anything I have built. Use them right and they will not fail.
Good to hear - can't say I recognize the name but if they work out and don't fail - sound like a win win to me. Cheers
I have a 20 year old shed that was built in a seismic zone with black phosphate indoor drywall screws that still is intact. I’d never use those screws myself on projects but enough screws will hold most non critical projects.
Screws will not sheer that easily if they are completely embedded in wood. If you Nick a nail it can break the same way. I've been a builder for over 30 years and used both and never seen anything I've ever built have a catastrophic structural failure with screws, nails or bolts. It's all in how you build and support it.
Yes exactly as you never used a deck screw with a joist hanger or depended on a deck screw for a structural load but yes some diyers do it all the time so this video is for those that just don't know the difference, . Cheers
Screws provide a more permanent clamping force. Less movement between surfaces creates a stronger load capacity. Think of loose legs on a chair as a example. Proper sized fasteners are key to a strong joint. Using nails or screws shear strength to support a load is a bad idea. A proper design with the wood carrying the shear load is a lot safer.
Well said Douglas 👍
Deck screws aren’t “crap” they are hardened, therefore no sheer strength. So you’re right they aren’t structural, but it’s not because they are crap, it’s because structural isn’t their purpose.
Exactly 👍
My home is in area where 50 -60 mph winds are common, with temperatures down to minus mid teens and up to 110s f. Screws are reliable, nails are not. This is my experience for some decades. Contractors use nails because they much faster to install, not reliable.
Use whatever is acceptable to your needs within your areas building codes. This video is more about the spots one should never use deck screws. Cheers
Great demonstration Mate!! 99.99% of the people that build stuff don't have a clue about Shear Strength!!☺
Thanks buddy . !!!
Deck screws have a higher yield strength compared to a nail. Therefore, a deck screw will resist deformation (bending) more than a nail. Both will workharden when bent, but because the deck screw has a higher yield strength it will fracture sooner when it is severely bent as shown in this video. If your framing moves this much, there are other problems with the design of the structure. I believe the the cost of a quality deck screw is the real reason screws are not used. An advantage of using screws is they are much easier to remove if there is a framing issue during construction or a modification of the framing is needed during a renovation. With respect to corrosion, if a powder coated deck screw is scratched exposing the iron substrate, it will quickly corrode at this localized defect in the coating. However, a galvanized (Zinc) coating will actually repair itself (Zn adjacent to the defect will oxidize and expand to cover the exposed iron substrate) when it is scratched and placed in a corrosive environment such as humid air or chemicals in pressure treated wood. For maximum corrosion resistance, always choose the thickest hot dipped galvanized coating available.
I'm a retired contractor, over 40 yrs. I don't recommend using galvanized nails or screws in treated wood. The chemicals in treated wood has a erosive effect on galvanized metal. Causing support failure. I've seen entire decks collapse collapse. collapse. collapse.
Coated deck screw, not black or galvanized are fine for treated wood. It is the copper in the treatment that causes the steel to rust. Screws must be harder than nails otherwise they will twist off when you drive them in. Brittle does not mean weaker. Preform the same vise test with aluminum screw nails and they will be brittle.
I just had a stripped deck screw from Home Depot that was sticking out of a 2x4 by about an inch and a half. I probably bent it over with a hammer and straightened it again 5 or 6 times before it broke. Good deck screws are annealed and are very flexible.
Thanks for the comment Clint - I will revisit this video and deck screws in the future and try multiple brands of deck screws and put then all to the test. Cheers buddy
I'd rather use structural screws than nails when framing things but I'm no profession. GRK and Fastenmaster (Timberlok) make excellent structure screws that meet or exceed nails in shearing strength and are building code approved. They will bend like the nail in the video but will need much more force to do so. The downside is that they are way more expensive than nails and deck screws, but they have way more load bearing (shear) strength and have clamping force that nails don't have. They will also break faster if your boards are moving around a lot to the point they start to bend (if your frame is doing that then you have other problems...). Watch some videos on GRK R4 multipurpose screws or Timberlok/Ledgerlok fasteners. They both also have code approved screws that need no pilot hole that replace 3/8 Lag screws up to 8 inches long.
Good tips Steve for the ones that weren't aware of the differences between nails and deck screws. The best thing is to use the correct fastener for its intended function. I like deck screws only for fastening down decking and they are too brittle for lateral forces. So, yes, they are not good for construction purposes. I don't use plain nails, even the hot-dipped galvanized ones for decking because in a few years they will work themselves up. But using nails that has the adhesive on them such as for pneumatic or electric nailers are okay as the adhesive will hold them in there.
Terry i've tried removing a nail gun nail and it's real tough with the adhesive that holds them together. I have yet had a nail from a nail gun work its way up as regular spiral nails do. The ring shank nails for my nail gun are impossible to remove. Even screws have to be tightened down after the PT wood shrinks at times. Take Care buddy.
I don’t know where you’re buying your deck screws but there’s several different types, there’s cheap ones and there’s good structural ones. Good deck screws beat nails, hands down every time.
Shear strength is not always as good, but that really isn’t a factor on a deck, tensile strength is way better, holding power is multiple times better, nails will always eventually gradually back out, everyone that’s ever had a deck nailed down knows they’ve had to go along with a hammer occasionally and knock down migrating nail heads.
Home depot is where these were bought. Lots of different screws and different certifications so finding the right fastener and build to code is the best choice.
I used 3 1/2” stainless steel deck screws in Timbertech decking on pressure treated joists.
They costs eleven cents each. But they won’t corrode.
👍
---- the current cost of a Deckmate 3 1/2 " screw if you buy them by the pound is 18 cents each - if you got stainless for 11, you got a good deal
From my Dad the Structural Engineer “screws are for pull out, Nails are for Sheer.” Use nails except for when you need pullout resistance
I go by best practices and follow local building codes when in doubt.
A 30 second video stretched to six minutes and I watched the whole thing 😆 good job 👏
Best six minutes you ever had eh 😅😅
I built an 8x16 foot pool deck in Michigan 25 years ago and used deck screws. It's still standing today and shows absolutely no sign of aging other than graying of the pressure-treated wood. Screw shanks are bright and clean. Square and level. So there's that.
That's what their for , deck boards so that's great . 👍
The screws I use don’t break like that plus I don’t like using nails because they tend to pop up during the seasons.
That was interesting. Deck screws are hardened and that makes them brittle. However, most of the loads on light structural constructions are static. Impact stress and static stress are very different. In your calculations of static force when you double the weights, the forces double as well. With dynamic stress its squared, times itself. Anything that has impact forces on it will have very high momentary stress, but if it just sits, the forces are lighter. That you can break the screw with a hammer in shear is not an outstanding surprise. The wood however is not rigid like the steel vise and getting pure shear is not common. With nails, the flexation of the wood can work them loose through the seasons. As you say, some products work best when they are used as designed.
Good observation.
@@SteveRobReviews Vibration is a nasty one such as on steps or anything that has high winds. Thats why they put lock washers on things. The momentary shock loads of vibration while short in duration and not small in intensity. The lock washer takes up the vibration by keeping the load on the fastener constant. All things stretch and that's why screws have become attractive. I noticed you mentioned galvanized nails and I agree but for one thing. Galvanized nails don't lock in. When you are framing with galvanized nails it is easy to pull stuff apart and make correcitons. Same with uncoated nails until they get a coat of rust. In a month, nothing can get plain nails apart except a saw or bulldozer.
This isn't a drywall screw but certainly all screws of this nature are brittle if that makes you unhappy use the big grks for structural
Im not a carpenter.. I mean I have built many things, and 90% of the time I admit to using screws. I figure a screw isnt going to back out over time like a nail can do. Never had any failures, but certainly cant argue with your little demonstration there. Might rethink things from now on. As far as the outhouse build and a video, I vote do it! I would find it interesting! Dont hear of many people building an outhouse these days. I actually have an outhouse here at my house from years gone by when that was the only option. Ahhh the good ol days right? LOL! Great video Steve!
We all use them and sometime it can go sideways in the wrong spot. Yes they're ok but use them wisely I guess. Outhouse it will be. Cheers
Good video. The key thing to understand with any screws is that they're meant to clamp things together (load trying to pull the boards apart), not hold shear (side load, like the hammer blow in the video).
The screws are much better when clamping is what you want to do, since they're threaded, whereas nails will back out.
The nails are much better at holding shear loads.
It's not that deck screws are crap, they're just not meant for shear.
Awesome tip Steve, unfortunately I made my raised garden beds using deck screws and I can already notice one side is bulging, I bet a screw broke from the pressure of the soil. Great tip, thanks man.
Thanks for watching Kevin. They do hold up quite well until they don't. LOL
Try cutting through a GSK self-tapping exterior torx head screw with a multi-tool. It won't be easy and it will never back out.
The Canadian Robertson square headed design are far and away the most superior screws
I agree with you on the coated deck screws. I think the stainless screws I used will hold up to the salt used in PT wood, but cost-wise it is very expensive. I used the hot dipped galvanized deck nails on my front porch 20 years ago and they're still in good shape.
Jay I have yet to see SS deck screws up here but the Txsviking showed some he gets in Texas and they look much thicker than coated Deck screws. I like them like everyone else but they do snap real easy . Cheers buddy.
Yes, the SS screws bend easy too.
The newer pressure treated lumber (acq) has a much higher salt content, thats why bright nails don't last. I've seen fences fall apart two years after they were built.
As for deck screws they are handy especially for remodeling in houses with plaster.
They are hardened that's why they break.
If you properly construct something the fastener does not bear the load. The fastener merely keeps the lumber from moving. When fasteners must carry a load there should be strapping or other hardware involved....
Bang on Richard . Have a great night . Cheers
"HMM, I didn't think the gun was loaded" :)
Good tip, I would have gone for the deck screws right away. I knew they broke easy, but never thought how that would effect structural integrity. Good tip Steve
It's a common screw used for just about everything but be cautious if you ever have to have it inspected by a local building inspector . I look forward to building the outhouse soon. Cheers Lee
Nice video Steve! I have to say I'm guilty of using screws a lot. Mainly for the ease of taking things back apart.
Mike we all use them but it's nice to know their limitations. Oh yes i'm guilty as well and as you see on my show I do a lot of stuff non code. LOL
I've watched some videos that illustrate how nailed joists are stronger than screwed...what a difference in strength. What are the correct screws to use for joints? I like the idea of that nail gun, no air hose needed? Beauty! Great vid Steve I'll bring up this topic this weekend in regards to building a dock.
Its different around the world I assume but its best practices and building codes that suggest correct fasteners. Liability in using the wrong fastener is where it gets interesting but for most homeowners building such things as an outhouse its outside of the code I think. LOL
Deck boards,use screws doing it once.I have pulled out so many nails that popped up holding in deck boards replacing them with screws
I agree and use good deck screws too Cheers Walter
Sold my old Paslode (not paying for gas) and added a DeWalt nailer (battery), glad I did. Don't smell the gas and the gas cartridge doesn't end up in the dump. Never had a problem. Battery-powered tools are the best!
While I agree that you wouldn't want to use screws for structural (lateral holding strength) when heavy load-bearing, they are great for attaching deck boards. I think the video should have shown the benefits of using them to hold boards in place and firmly to the joists, which nails do not do well. Always use 16d galvanized and joist hangers along with joist nails for the framing.
Well said and I agree . The choice between nails and screws for many comes down to cost but sometimes you save upfront and pay after :) Both have their place and knowing their place is what this vid brings up. Cheers Christopher
Ok, yes, steel deck screws break. BUT you can use SS, stainless steel deck screws, they do not break, they will outlast nails, they can bend more cycles than nails. Other interesting thing is bronze wood screws for boats. You would think they might break, but they usually never break, and a wood boat has a ton of movement all the time for many decades of life. Of course bronze cost too much for houses. Nails are the best cheapest option. But my experience using SS screws versus deck screws, is the deck screws break and the SS screws have never broken. I dont even like using deck screws on the top boards of decks.
Your on the money Steve....Just got back from camp and the black flies are in season....me and my buddy came back a day early....could not stand the flies any more....guess i`m getting old but that tip bout the screws and not using for erecting any kind a construction is spot on....had a electrical friend a mine wanted to do extraction on his camp with screw and he said it was the way to go and I told him if that was his way I was not helping but if he wanted i`d bring the air guns and even supply the nails and I`d be there and I think I converted him....the new pressure is I think some kind of sugar base....they can't use arsenic any more and I seen the pressure treated wood rotting around a normal rusting nail but even hot dip rust.....I a the camp have a chain thats ten years old and its hot dip and you could not tell to look at it.....must go ....lots of backed up movies and messages and ....ah I have to hire a secretary but I have to pay out of my pension money....ah I`ll ask my wife If she wants to be my secretary....SALUTE my friend
HAHA need a secretary now. LOL Might be headed up this weekend and I know the bugs will be bad too.
Unsure who reads the title of a box labeled “deck screw” and doesn’t think, even for a second, that perhaps they’re specifically for a singular purpose.
The reason most people use nails is because they’re speedy to install and a cheap price for higher quantity. Unfortunately, there is nothing keeping them from coming loose during seasonal narrowing and expansion of wood, which is why l anyone who does even cursory research would avoid them in use of a quality deck.
Spend the money, get Zinc coated, high end deck screws with a *star* head bit, not a square drive, and you won’t regret it.
This conversation always neglects the key factor in why people use nails at all. They’re fast and can be driven in with a pneumatic or electric gun 5 times faster than screws.
That being said, if you have the time, use zinc coated screws, and coat them with weather proof varnish after installing.
If you’re against the deadline, use a nail gun. Screws will never be beaten by nails in any field except shear strength…which isn’t of concern in a deck anyway that’s stationary and isn’t subject to left and right movement unless you majorly botched laying the foundation.
Will have to disagree completely on using nails for a deck IF you have the time to use screws. With modern drivers and enormous battery packs, it takes little to no effort to drive a deck screw nowadays.
Nice Tip Steve, I never knew those screws would break like that.
Hi Rob, they are quite hard a brittle.
4:40 I see what you’re getting at, finally. The metal used in the screws is hardened to give them the torsion strength needed to not snap off as easily when being driven in, but that compromises their sheer strength. Nails use a more ductile type of steel and therefore are made for and perform better under sheer loading. Now, it should be noted that there are lots of types of screws, so the above is to be taken as a _general_ rule.
Good point, you just took a few minutes to get there. It’s definitely Worth considering the forces and environmental circumstances acting on the structure being built and choosing the appropriate fasteners.
👍
That's a fancy nail gun! Deck screws don't hold up in barn repairs either, LOL. And good nails sure are expensive. Good vid!
Thanks Helga , it's something a lot don't know about but should if their using deck screws to build a barn.
I have built decks for a few years always use screws for the decking. Over a number of years had to replace a number of decks because nails were used instead of screws. Usually by someone flipping house just to say house has a new deck.
Deck screws are designed to be used for deck boards as well as fence boards . They are definitely not designed as a universal replacement for joist hanger fasteners or lag screws ect . For the most part screws vs nails for fences or deck boards are a choice . Cheers Steve 👍
I found this out the hard way. Your friend is lucky you let him know this!
Cheers
Bob
Though that box of strip nail says hot dipped, I have my doubts. Typically hot dipped hand nails have a very rough surface. The only way I'm aware of that galvanization can be done to have a smooth surface, is electro plate.
i been snapping deck screws for 30 years , like the person already said in the comments , the forces on a screw and shearing effects all come into play, ill use screws for just about anything unless it really should have a bolt, when using the new pressure treated stuff you simply need the right coated fasteners, triple coated nails in my region, and the reasonable lifespan for a deck is 20 years , anything past 20 years is just a bonus
This has to do with the temper of the different metals. Screws last longer and have higher mechanical bonding, but are thinner and hard tempered. Nails are usually cheaper by a lot (which is why they are used) thicker and have a softer temper. Anything that requires more sheer strength then a screw can hold should be using structural bolts and brackets. Nails are why homes fall apart in 50 mph winds. Nails were originally invented with a soft temper and to be driven THROUGH an object and folded over on the other side which is far superior to modern uses.
Thanks, this info re bent-over nails is is a really interesting and helpful historical insight. Adds to the bigger picture of this video.
We've all heard the phrase "dead as a door nail". Many years ago when doors were made a long nail was hammered through the door and the sharp end bent down with a hammer to ensure it wouldn't back out. That made the nail non-reuseable i.e. "dead".
Excellent information. While I use screws for their compression abilities I also use brackets with bolts (not lag screws) to through-connect things like rafters to top plates.
To explain why pressure treated eats metals the C in ACQ pressure treated lumber is copper. When dissimilar metals come in contact with each other in the presence of moisture/water (or other conductor) the less noble of the metals gets eaten (corrodes) by the stronger metal. It's called a galvanic reaction. A typical nail/screw will deteriorate very fast in pressure treated because of this. A galvanized screw/nail has a zinc coating that's sacrificial and gets eaten by the pressure treated wood, but takes a long time. Once the wood eats through the galvanized (zinc) coating the steel underneath will quickly be eaten following. The more coating the longer it will last (why electroplating is least protective and double-dipped galvanized is very protected). Some screws/nails are coated with a special coating that prevents moisture coming in contact with the metal of said nail/screw resisting galvanic reaction. Many manufactures actually use a combo, they hot dip galvanize and then cover with a polymer (more coatings the better) as it's cheaper than double-dipping and offers more protection than a single dip.
Great explanation. Thanks 👍
Is there a hot dip galvanize deck screw?
Depends on the direction of force {load} Nails have better shear screws have more tensile. If it's where two pieces can slide against each other on the horizantal nails better, if it's where the direction of pull is vertical screws are better.
I use deck screws for structural all the time. Several sheds, small barns and even yes decks. Never gad a problem or failure.
Structural can mean different things to people but deck boards , exterior barn boards or the outside sliding of a shed is not structural .
I use deck screws, Torq? In framing as well as decks and privacy fence inst. , it’s easier/ much less painful than holding a nail gun or the joint shock from hammering, of course I’m 65 with plenty of joint damage and DDD.
Hi Michael
I know how that feels, too. Cheers 👍
Michael, an impact driver works far better than an ordinary driver-drill. I have arthritis, and when I bought the impact driver several years ago I was amazed at the difference and kicking myself for not having bought one much sooner!
That's true for impact loading screws are carburized and heat treated to high hardness and strength but are brittle and may even break during rapid torquing but they resist creep due to temperature change and water exposure that will make the nails pull and loose grip of time. Screws hold fast - this is why they are used to stop old oak and maple tongue and groove floors from creaking after the nails loosen over time.
Those screws are meant for the planking boards, not the supporting construction. When used where they do belong, they anchor much better than nails of comparable length and normally don't work loose with weathering like nails do. (Had to hammer down plenty of nails and put screws besides them in areas of minor warping on a deck a few years old.)
If building a deck, the answer would be to use both and then some. Just make sure you use the fasteners best suited for each aspect of construction. (And sometimes the correct fastener is neither screw nor nail, but through-holes with proper brackets, washers, nuts, and bolts.)
Good advice there . Cheers
Very interesting. Obviously, if there is any movement or shearing action of the deck screws it will likely fail.Thanks for the demonstration.
Thanks Andy I found it interesting over the years watching them shear apart.
The screws and nails you buy at most lumberyards rust and do not last as long as the treated wood. I recommend stainless nails. Maze nails are the best for galvanized, maze ring shank, once you pound them in they will not come out. Stainless ring shank is best for structural but stainnless screws are ok for deck or non structural areas. Some stainless screws can be kind of weak and break off while screwing though.
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soooooo....... this video saved my deck... i started yesterday tacking the beams together... with deck screws.... guess my morning will consist of adding nails..... baha THANK YOU FOR THIS VIDEO.
Your point is valid in an earthquake zone like California. For the majority of the country screws are ok. Watch Canadian builders ad they use screws for everything. This video could have been 6:09 shorter
Well I did make a responce vid explaining a bit more if your interested. th-cam.com/video/IfCuqqN9g4o/w-d-xo.html
I'm replacing rotted 2x8 fascia boards around the edge of my roof. Earlier tonight, I *almost* bought a box of 4" deck screws at Home Depot. Fortunately, I put them back and decided to do more research. Tonight, I found your video. The demonstration at the end with the vice did it for me. THANK YOU!
Hey the grk screws
Structural rated screws for hangers, galvanized ring shank for stucture, coated screws for decking,
Good tip specially with something that will shift due to weather conditions.
I had deck screws holding the door hinge on my old outhouse and noticed last year two heads missing , just the shaft was there and I was wondering why the door felt wobbly , hahaha . I guess over time it loosened up and snapped the heads off.
Both have their uses...screws for surface clamping..nails for structure/shear application
Hi Edward
💯 % 👍 I just went on a small job to replace 14 deck boards on a huge deck , all with screws . All the screw heads were full of solid stain so it was a bear replacing the boards compared to nails . They both have their pros and cons . Cheers 👍
There are many things an average handyman just may not know. Good video. Lesson for everybody to do their homework. The best thing would be to get a job with a reputable contractor for 6 months and learn lots.
For the most part a general contractor is the best choice as they have the liability in constructing stuff and do know what not to use.
I was lucky as a young man I got a job as a carpenters helper and was there to help in the building of my own home.
I've built fencing for horses and used three and half inch galvanized ring shank nails, and they lean against the wood and they rip wright out, then I started using three and half inch star bit screws they work way better then nails, especially around horses I've been in construction for 35 years nails are faster but not better than the wright screws, screws hold better and don't back out.
Good idea as I have done the same for horse stalls as a horse will cut itself on nails sticking out of the wood rubbing against the boards.
Grk are the only way to go
I never would of imagined that. but thinking of what is in pressure treated wood im not surprised.
years ago they said the pressure treated wood has chemicals that are bad for the envirement.
great tip. 😎👍
I don't think many even think about how easy they snap off. For fence boards and deck boards they're the best. I'm not sure what's in the new PT wood today , looks like food colouring now. LOL
Once they are in the frame they won’t suffer bending lateral impacts that can make them snap. GRK and Griprite both make corrosion resistant construction screws with plenty of shear strength that work great. You don’t need a nail gun. Every weekend warrior has a cordless drill.
Weekend warriors use deck screws in contravention of normal building practices as well as local building codes. Weekend warriors for the most part are not trained in construction as I see so many instances were deck screws are used where all building codes reject their use. Being informed what fastener to use is definitely not commonly known or you can be a Weekend warrior and take your chances 😉
Thanks Steve. I've understood how weak deck screws are for a long time. I kept trying to explain to people. Just because they're "deck" screws doesn't mean you can build a deck out of them. Sure, they're okay for a deck being held down, but that's not structure.
If I see them again, I'll tell them to watch your demonstration. :)
Thanks and my friend watched the vid who figured you could build a house with them LOL Cheers and get out there and work on something :)
STEVE ROB :) I'm taking a few days to just ride, why don't you just get out there and build an out house. Lol
STEVE ROB :) I'm taking a few days to just ride, why don't you just get out there and build an out house. Lol
I have to say. I have lived at the same place for over 20 years. Anything that was put in with a nail unless it is a spiral nail came apart with just a hammer. Anything put together with deck screws had to have a salwsall to take apart
That's a good thing i'd say as you used the screws in a spot their intended to be and they did a great job . Cheers Donna
Wonderful tip and example of why u don't use them in structure application. I really wish they would put a warning label on the screws to alert folks from making a mistake.
That's a good idea . I wonder now why there is no such warning. Great idea and I will look and see if there is any mention. Thanks
Thanks for the tips, and thanks for the tips from u guys in the comments! I've had nails pulling out on my own deck since i put in the new floor and replacing then w/screws. But will go with nails on any structural. I'm a handyman, wood butchering being on the bottom of my favorite things to fix but gonna get a call now and then for it!
Cheers Paul we all learn from each other. 👍
Your absolutely correct that they are brittle. I like those twisted nails that you showed, smooth ones pull right out. That being said, I have pushed deck screws to the max. building scaffolding. From the view point of metalworking there is a strong force when tightening two smooth surfaces together that resists the shear force. I built my house with 10'-13' high ceilings and made a false floor throughout the house so that I could install 4'X10' T111 to the ceiling by myself using two to three deck screws at the end of 2"X6" with 3/4" plywood on top. After taking the false floor down I found a couple of places where there was just one screw from where I assembled it myself, so that the other end swivels, and then I forgot to put one to two more there.
Interesting topic for sure as many do use deck screws in some odd spots :) Cheers Brad
Id like to see a test with screws actually trying to shear two boards screwed vs nailed.
I get nails can bend many times like that and not break but when you screw 2 boards tightly alot of strength also comes from the friction and compression the screws provide from squeezing the material together.
Ive unscrewed old stuff and had to still pry the board off afterwards. So in my opinion these tests arent fair to how screws/nails would actually be used.
The whole point is deck screws are not designed or allowed to be used as structural supports , check your local building code. People who dabble in construction use deck screws in places not allowed . Dog houses, garbage storage bins , sure but not for so many other places I've seen used. Cheers
Good to know. I'm hanging a 100 lb heavy bag from a 4x4 strung between two 2x10s with joist hangers and wanted to know which fastener to use. I'm going with the galvanized nails thanks to this video.
Joist hangers use joist hanger nails by most . Sounds plenty strong. Cheers
I've been using deck screws for deck construction for over 20 years. Except for the recent changes to the design of the screw, I can say that I've been very happy them, and (yes, still standing) the decks that I have constructed. I've never used a metal deck brace - they rust, break, and make for a wobbly structure. I believe your construction design is most important to building a safe decking structure - use notching where pragmatic, use reinforced wood bracing in every possible way; in this way, deck screws can be used everywhere. Plus, the poor sod who needs to replace a board later, or break down the deck, doesn't have to destroy the wood or kick the dog to do it, and the deck screws can be RE-USED - I've reused them after 5 years and they are still as good as new.
Everyone if free to use what they like and if it works for you it's just great. Cheers
You're a nice guy Steve. My intent was not to sound so grumpy, but I I tend to sound that way by default.... :)
No problem at all no offence taken. You have a great day.
Great tips Steve, I use both but never thought about this. I would watch the outhouse build!
Thanks buddy. I will build another outhouse but not too in depth as I doubt anyone wants to actually build one in Texas. LOL
When I seen those fasteners in the vise . . . I knew what was coming. Good illustration.
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Yes! Lag screws, hanger brackets, lag bolts and structural wood screws, and spiral nails. You are right - love my deck screws, but not for structure. Well put.
Cheers bud.
The thing is that the fasteners, nails/screws, should only ever hold the pieces of wood together, they should never be used to carry load, other than in laminating a header or beam in which case the shear value is what matters not the material itself. For structural members all the weight should be carried by wood that runs from the load to the foundation, such as trimmer studs or posts which can be held in place by either nails or screws.
Exactly but it seems many have no skill for construction at all so they build stuff that is scarry wrong as they don't know that deck screws are not magical things that can hold any load . 😉
I once built 30 wooden bakers racks for a concrete company.
The owner had built a prototype using your Paslode Nail Gun.
Under load, his bakers rack never made it across the floor the first time without falling apart.
Like I said, I built 30 of them, except I used 3" galvanized drywall screws.
In the years of use under load, there was never a failure.
But I was not using pressure treated wood either.
Those deck screws that you showed will rust out and snap in about 10 years if used on an exterior deck with pressure treated wood.
I have replaced 2 decks so far this year that used those deck screws.
Very easy to take apart using a crowbar.
I am trying the stainless-steel drywall screws now backed by 1/2" carriage bolts.
Much more expensive
SS all the way , much better . Cheers 👍
While I've never worked in construction, I do a lot of my own work around the house. I have a 16 x 16 deck that I built and put a flat, pitched roof on. I used nothing but coated deck screws! Ten years and still standing, even survived a tornado that passed by less than a 100 feet and took down a 75 foot pine! I also have a wood privacy fence that was put up the year before I bought this house. It has become a ritual, every spring, one of the first jobs is to go around the entire fence and replace all the loose nails with screws! I've yet to see a screw come loose like a nail does. Just saying....
Yes deck screws are fine when used as designed - Most have gone to screws because of the deck board nails poping up and I agree deck boards do better with nails. I do revisit this vid in part 2 -th-cam.com/video/IfCuqqN9g4o/w-d-xo.html
I don't know Steve, but I felt screwed by this video.....but I think you nailed it! Thanks my friend.
HAHA and that's what she said. LOL Thanks Buddy
Ive built a few decks and i cant ever remember a shearing force , like your hammer demonstration , happen to a screw driven flush. SO this is a non issue. Try driving your fastener in the edge at an angle and it will reduce pop ups. But for me screws on an angle in the edge win every time. Nothing showing either.
Lea the shear strength sure is good to know in the north . Built many of decks and seen hundreds of deck screw heads just shear off on the stem from hot to cold temps . I won't use #8 , just #10 if I can or SS screws. Cheers 👍
@@SteveRobReviews I live in the north as well...ive never seen deck screws shear by the hundreds...I wouldn't use deck screws to carry any structural load, but If used for decking I just haven't seen anything of the sort besides a few here or there
Hey yes Steve! I just came over from Papa Texas Channel 😊 he gave both you and me a shout out, so I thought I'd head on over to show my support. I built a greenhouse last summer and just need to finish putting it up and I have used a lot of deck screws in the past. Excellent video, very informative!
Perhaps deck screws break under stress more easily than nails but I've built decks and not had a problem with the screws. It's the wood that's always the problem, the stuff decays. :)
I agree the PT wood today is not so great . I'm in a climate of cold weather and lots of ice and snow so #8 deck screws snap easily. In warm climates I hear they are just fine . Cheers
@@SteveRobReviews interesting. I used deck screws over nails because I had no nail gun and didn't want to beat myself up. I guess I can double up screws and nails just to be safe..am in a warm climate. But with structural , it's better safe than sorry.
Whew!!! I’m glad I used nails for the structural part of my deck.
I did use the screws for the redwood and cedar boards. I did in case it got damaged. It’ll be easier to remove instead of tearing it out.
Well done , yes removing deck boards is much easier. Cheers
In regards to structural support, is there a difference between "deck" screws and other screws, like steel wood screws? What's your definition of "deck screw"?
Yes, absolutely, some screws are certified for structural use . So many fasteners to choose from as long as their recommended in local building codes. Deck screws are only allowed in non structural load bearing areas where specific fasteners are mandated. Deck screws sold labeled deck screws are only rated to be used as deck screws in specific areas.
my dad built a 40x60 shop using nothing but 3" deck screws back in 2000 and it hasn't fell down yet, so I'm gonna say they are fine for building an outhouse. Not sure what code says about this but The screws don't break like that if you have it going through a board like it should be. If you do the same test with one of those ring shank hot dipped nail gun nails you have there, they will break off too, they won't just bend over like a hammer driven nail. with that being said put 2 post in the ground nail a 2x6 or something horizontal across between them with a screw in one side and a nail in the other and hang weights off of the center of the board to see which side fails first. I prefer the ring shank hot dipped gun nails, cause they are faster but Im not sure that they are any better than screws as for as shear strength because I've broken plenty off.
Good points Chase. The deck screws may be more affected by climates with cold. If a building has to be inspected by a building inspector it most likely won't pass inspection with plain deck screws in a lot of jurisdictions. Was the shop your dad built inspected by your local building inspector.
no, its in a very rural area and was also 17 years ago so I'm not sure it would have even mattered. it's built similar to mine except not as tall, and he got a deal on wood poultry house trusses like mine but couldn't move em on his 18' trailer that i had in my video so he cut trusses in half with cutting blade on a grinder where the metal plates were, and joined them back together when he got em home with 2x material and deck screws, and then I kid you not we put each truss up by digging a hole with post hole diggers, standing a piece of 4" thin wall pipe in the ground and climbing a ladder hanging a chain hoist on it and hoisting them up. could only do about 1 truss a day time you put it back together and got it hoisted up and put lath boards on top.
Taking a deck for example, where in its construction are screws/nails actually structural? The fasteners used to attach a ledger to the house are, and those should never be nails always lags or ledgerloks. Stairs should also be attached with structural fasteners like lag bolts or ledgerloks.
Good suggestions william - thanks for the comment.
Good tip! Looking forward to part 2... ventilation (before & after usage).
Thanks Thomas, stay tuned for an outhouse build. Haha
I guess if you left half of the decks screws sitting outside of the wood you might have a point. But of course screws are not left outside of the wood. They are superior at holding because they bore into the material and the grooves hold them in place. Simple as that - common sense really.
Ken the video is more about where deck screws should not be used.
Agreed. The difference is that screws are usually cast and nails are forged. A proper scientific method to test the actual sheer strength of the screw would be to fasten a board to another with an over hang and hit the over hanging board. Also to test the tensile strength you would need to pull straight out and the screw would win 100% because the nail is going to pull out. The 1/2" to 3/4" length used in the demonstration puts all the leverage force at the bend but it wouldn't bend much if actually inserted. Contractors use nail guns because they are lazy, fast, and cheap. Nails suck for a lot of reasons: wood expands and contracts with changing humidity and eventually nails start to pull out, nails are a hassle to deal with when maintaining old structures (like replacing boards), nails are great for sheer strength (to prevent catastrophic failure - they still have be removed after being bent in a stricture) but suck for tensile fastening, and nail guns are just freaking sloppy and lazy. I'll admit that screws do have the problem of being more brittle, but they are far superior fasteners than nails when it comes to something that needs to be maintained for decades. I wouldn't use your standard deck screw though; I use stainless steel screws.
@@AmixLiark screws are cold forged and occassionlly cut on a lathe
I see the point. But one thing is the screws are supported inside the wood unlike the vise test at best the screw will bend just like the nails. I never seen screws shear off or snap unless they’re the black oxide sheet rock screws
Hmmm. I've only been doing it since deck screws became available with no real problems. Nails in severe climates (like the deep south) tend to loosen over the years in outdoor applications. They also rust. Screws properly driven will not be in bending stress (unless you don't know what you're doing with the structure), they will be in tension. Galvanized screws are a better choice but again, I've had no problems with coated deck screws. And I don't like Paslode nail guns because you have to buy the fuel cartridges (about $12 each). Yes, they are more convenient than pancake compressors and air guns, so you have to decide what you want out of a tool.
Up here the big box store deck screws just rust and corrode as the cold and ice snap many of the shanks off . In the south their ok but most diyers still use them in not so good locations. Cheers
Good Topic.
Crazy thing is.... Big Boats that take alot of beatings from the oceans are made with alot of stainless screws in them...not nails, yet very old boats had nails because screws wernt as easily avail.
Homes use nails and are still standing without using screws.
Stainless Deck screws for decks are alot better than coated deck screws that will eventually rust away and be weak fasteners.
I built a deck and I used lag bolts for anything that holds weight the rest are deck screws. I ran out of deck screws in 1 place so I used nails, where I used nails the wood rotted out.
Interesting , so where you used nails the wood rotted out may be because of the nail coating you chose . Electro- Galvanized nails vs hot dipped Galvanized nails . I only use hot dipped as electo just rot over time compared to hot dipped.
@@SteveRobReviews Thanks for info
I had the opposite results -- the wood around the deck screws rotted, the wood around the galvanized nails did not.
Pull-out strength is also an important consideration
I've also worked with screws that, while not as tough as nails, do have enough toughness for most jobs.
Yes Steve absolutely a must do use galvanize fasteners in pressure treated lumber in fact when I started the sky coop The guy at the lumberyard gave me the wrong nails and I probably used 100 or so before I realized I was going wrong on the Simpson ties straps I didn't bother pulling them out I just had to drill a second hole to Adam other faster next to the wrong one it really sucked not to mention set me back half a day 🐔
Turned out great and will last a long time. Yes the wrong fastener can make for a bad day into the future. Cheers buddy
Appreciated, I am just about to make an outdoor 16 square metres deck, and was not sure about screws and nails
Screws are not intended for shear strength but they do have superior grip strength....this is why code required the use of galvanized clout nails to secure joist hangers because nails have the required shear strength.
Have used joist hanger screws made for that purpose, expensive but works well , has a lot of sheer force etc but it’s new thec prob only out like 5 years , hex heads, prob twice the diameter of a reg deck screw but the one thing is most of the stuff is not made here but in the “ C “ place and mostly crap