I've got a 351W in my '69 Fairlane and I love it. It had over a quarter-million miles on it before I had it rebuilt 20 years ago and it is still running strong!
That’s one of my fantasy cars that I’ve always got an eye out for!!! Even though I’m a Chevy guy, I have searched for years for a ‘69 Fairlane❤ for a decent price that needs some TLC. So far after all of these years I’ve come up short. I’ve have come up short on finding a decent Chevy Nova 67-73 (most coveted 1969) or other Chevy, Pontiac, Olds or Mach 1. But who knows what the future holds. Am I right?! Until then I’m trying to get my health to hold out! 🤙
The Windsor might be better because it oils the main bearings first. When the oil is low you hear ticking valve lifter. The Cleveland oils the top first, so the mains are the first to be starved---meaning engine death. Otherwise, the only other functional difference is the larger heads on the Cleveland. The Windsor heads are designed for low speed torque.
You forgot to mention that the Windsors have their valves in a straight line while Clevelands have canted (angled) valves so if the valve cover is off it's really easy. Also, the top of the Cleveland valve cover is basically horizontal, but that's a little more difficult to judge.
You missed the most important detail.... The smell....if it smells of oil brut and Miller..... Windsor If it smells of hi karate oil and Schlitz with a hint of Candi.... Then it's me Now 400m has a distinct smell of oil stetson and VSOP Just sharing my knowledge Love the info Love and Starliners
My Dad retired from the Cleveland plant, and my Uncle ran Cleveland Engine Plant 1 for a time in its heyday. Other relatives also worked there, and when I was in high school, I thought that was where I'd go too (didn't happen). Ford actually had three plants on the same property at one point: Plant 1, Plant 2, and the foundry. Now I believe just plant one remains making Eco-Boost engines. ford also had/has engine plants in Detroit (Romeo), and Lima, Ohio (locally pronounced lye-MA, not lee-Ma as in Spanish). The Cleveland plants were built in the Early 1950s. I think at one point, about 5000 employees were on the payroll. Fun fact, in a press release when they closed the foundry (outsourced to Mexico to save labor costs, of course...), they noted castings were no longer in their core products portfolio... I thought its odd they didn't know block castings are the core piece of gasoline motors - you know, as in "The Ford Motor Company..." Sorry for the digression. So, I have a '66 Mustang with what I believe (another story) is a '67 289 4V. My sense is that its a Windsor, but Pop told me Cleveland made tons of 289s, and did so before Windsor began their production run of them. My engine is a real mix-master as best I can tell, partly because I see Cleveland Foundry stamps (an f within a big C) on the exhaust manifolds, and Windsor foundry stamps (WF) on the heads (with rocker covers off). I haven't been able to get a good look at the block codes behind the starter, because, well, the starter. Its in the way, and I'm not in a hurry to pull it just for forensics. Pop had that front row seat to how things were made, and decided to buy a '68 model Mercury, because it had the then "new" 302. And I remember that engine well. Point is, ford engines are even more confusing that we even appreciate. I think the best proof you can get is the casting marks. But even then, there was cross shipping between the two plants of parts, and that might explain my Cleveland Manifolds on a Windsor block. Jeff; thanks or what you guys do! I just wish I could ship my car to you to work on that scary front suspension... 🙂
There is a spring suppressor on e-bay that slides down and mounts in shocks home. I bought it & did it myself and it was amazingly easy & safe. Was like $150 or so and it works on all 64-73 mustangs as well as falcons and some rancheros.
I know that over the years enthusiasts have been putting 4V manifolds and carbs on American market 2V Cleveland motors. Problem is I don’t know anyone who did and don’t know how well they run on the street. I had a 351C 2V in a 71 Cougar back in the late. 80s. I was still in college so I didn’t have as much disposable income as I’d have liked, and that car was an extreme rust bucket that I drove anyway (paid like $500 for it). I did install dual exhaust with cheap turbo mufflers and ran an open element air cleaner with an element for a 454 Chevy. For a while that high mileage (allegedly rebuilt but for $500, what do you really think) motor ran pretty strong, within reason. I liked it anyway, but ended up selling it and buying a new truck that started regularly and had air conditioning that worked. Anyway, while I’m not anything close to an engineer, I have wondered how a set of iron American 2V heads would work on a 302 or 351W based Clevor - for the street, of course. Aftermarket alloy heads for Windsors probably work better all around, but I think 351C 2V heads can still be scrounged up pretty cheap. Or just a warmed over 351C 2V motor with a four barrel carb, aluminum intake, and a more robust cam. Just curious.
I love Cleveland heads on a Windsor 302 block aka Clevor. Nothing revs like 4Vs on the track however 2V heads on the smaller displacement was much better for street driving. Nowadays you can buy a Edelbrock airgap intake that will bolt up for Clevor combo. Back then we made adaptor plates to use the Windsor intake on the Cleveland heads.
I just wonder how a shootout between a 302 with good aftermarket heads and intake, and roller cam would stack up against a equally prepared Clevor. Wish we had the money (or clout) to pull it off.
@@AutoRestoMod I thought Richard Holdener had one of those Dyno comparisons, but I didn't find it on his channel. I've never used any of the aluminum aftermarket heads. Cast iron baby! I've always was working on the cheap. Although I've seen complete aluminum heads for cheaper than I can buy the valve train. I'm old and I can't figure out how they make money. I have done port stuffers and exhaust plate mod to raise the floor. Thank you for your replies to my comments. I appreciate you and your videos .
@@CJColvin yeah, filling the lower portion of the inlet port and raising the exhaust port about an inch were all part of the porting. Everything was smoothed but nothing finner than 180 or 220... Not polished, it's just not worth the extra effort in my opinion.
The 221-351W are Small Blocks technically they are 90° Small Blocks this was the last family naming Ford used for these engines. There is no Windsor family of engines, It is a misnomer to call the 221-302 Windsor's this was a tag started by Hot Rod magazine in 1988 and NO Ford source has ever referred to them as Windsor's. Also The small blocks were not all cast at Windsor casting. The 221-260 were only cast at the Cleveland Foundry, the 289- 302 were cast at both Cleveland and Windsor and the 351W was only cast at Windsor. The 351W was called the 351W to differentiate and keep it from being confused with the 351C introduced at the same time. The 400 was never called Cleveland or M as it was the only Ford engine of that displacement and therefore did not require a suffix identifier. The 351M was given the M moniker for Modified to differentiate it from the other 2 351's. The M (Modified) suffix was used as the 351M is a 400 modified with a 351W crank and taller pistons otherwise all the other parts (except cam and carb) were 400 parts.
The 351W was introduced for 1969 model year, Cleveland was not used till '70 models. In spite of rumors, a Cleveland was never installed in '69 models. If the C actually did make '69 production, it would be documented in the Master Parts catalog, NADA. Unlike the '71 Boss 302 that was planned but cancelled, those parts were in the '71 Master Parts. During 351W production, AFAIK all the 302 were built at Cleveland. The 221, 260 & early 289, were all built at Cleveland. When Windsor foundry opened in '66 they began building 289(though not all), switched to 351 for '69 models. Speculating here, but I suspect Windsor went through some plant enlargement. The the '69 Galaxie/LTD did not have 351 as option till mid year. I have a 1968 Windsor built 289 setting in my garage, those were built in 302 blocks. Sometime in it's life had a 4bbl intake swapped on, that came from a 1967 Cleveland built 289.
Welp, it's like this, Ford never called the Mustang a "coupe" but lots of people do. I said Windsor to keep people in the frame of mind that they are all the same basic design.
@@AutoRestoMod Windsor is NOT a basic design. It is NOT an engine family, it is a misnomer used by the ignorent and those that have no clue what they are talking about. The SBF 302 or the 221 260 or 289 are NOT Windsor's. Furthermore there was a 302W (similarly done like the 302C) it was produced and test muled by Ford in 81-82 as a potential way to increase production of a 302 sized engine to utilize what Ford thought was going to be underutilized 351W casting slots and molds . And FYI Ford DID call the non fastback Mustangs coupes they labeled them as such right in pricing tables. So that excuse is a non starter. So really how about you just quit making excuses for ignorance, and call the engines what they are, Small Block Fords then EVERYONE knows exactly WTH you are talking about.
If the valve covers are off, an easy way to identify a Cleveland is that the valves are canted (one closer to the center and the other closer to the outside). The Windsor valves are right next to one another in a line. I just noticed that Darryl's post before mine said the same thing!
The 351/400 M's were cast at the Michigan Casting Center in Flat Rock (Level Pebble) and at Cleveland. MCC became Auto Alliance (Maz-duh). Now they build Mustangs that used to be built at Dearborn Assembly (the Rouge Plant) which is now the Dearborn Truck Plant that builds F 150's. Back in the 80's, my buddy used to buy a few rusted out Gran Torino Elites a year to have spare 351/400 engines for his 1978 F 250 4x4. Those engines were slugs, but we had plenty of them running around in Dearborn. Go figure.
Trying to decipher Ford engines and transmission bellhousings is more complicated than reading Egyptian hieroglyphics wearing a welding helmet in the dark with your hands over your eyes...
I gotta get that t shirt!!! You stole my name! LOL I’m the real Manic Mechanic with full ASE Certified Master Automotive Technician with nearly 30 years of expertise experience! I’ve diagnosed, repaired and have built performance engines, transmissions and vehicles for most of my life! And when I was just a little kid I studied engine, transmission differential and electrical schematics for hours on end. Everywhere I went I had reading material and Hot Wheels in my pockets. I’ve lived and breathed cars my entire life. I’ve had the nick name Manic Mechanic almost my whole life. Good Vibes and Good Video! 🏴☠️🤙🏼
Im working on a 332 Y block Ford at work right now for the Fire Department Parade truck… it threw me off the first time i saw it cause for a second i thought i was looking at a sbc cause of the exhaust manifold and the distributor at the back of the block… but then i remembered about the Y blocks and sure enough i found the distributor said C3FT which told me it from a Ford Truck 1963 model… im having to do a tune up on it and im recording my progress… the truck is a 1927 American La France… hope to have up here in the next couple of days.. that engine really needs a good rebuild, but they only drive it a few days a year soo
I believe the truck 332 Y block is a derivative of the 317 Lincoln Y that appeared in '52. Eventually grew to a 368, in Lincoln & '57 Turnpike Cruiser Mercs. In '54 a smaller 239/256 Y block was introduced for Ford & Mercury consumption. Those topped out at 312.
@@TheFARM2019 This one sent me back in the archives, Hollanders Interchange. I thought this engine was probably discontinued by '60/'61, nope. Last usage of Y 332 was '64, in 2½ to 4 ton trucks. No doubt went back into mid '50s. Nothing is said about 1927 American La France... LOL
@@tombryant1104 the fire truck had the engine swapped back in the 70s 80s… its a frankenstine of a fire truck but its all just for show and it only needs to do like 2 mph lol
I had a 78 t-bird with the 351-m 400 and that thing was fast as hell, i out ran the police in it back in the day was clocked at 164 MPH I forget what rear end we put in it but it had legs after that .
Can you do another video on Windsor vs Cleveland with historical context. It used to be the Cleveland heads were wau better than Windsors. Now you have aftermarket options for both that closes the gap some. Thanks for doing these vids!🎬📸📽
My dad had a 70 something LTD with a 400m. My grandfather pulled a 351w out of his 76 F100 to give me as a present so I’d have a motor for a 65 mustang I had bought. Then he put a 400m in the F100. I have that truck now. Love the torque!
No such thing as a 400M, those came out in '71 and were just 400, period. In 1974 Ford stuffed a 3.5" crank in the 400 block and had to call it something, thus the 351M.
A 1976 F100 would have had either a 302 or an FE engine (360 or 390). The 351W wasn't factory in pickups until the early 80s (although maybe he'd swapped one into a 302 truck?). The 302 would have fit right into a 65 or later Mustang - it's basically the 289 with a larger bore. (Could be some different holes for accessory brackets but I can't remember all the variations). In a 6-cylinder Mustang you would have needed a V8 bellhousing. People do put 351W's into the 1964.5/65/66 cars too, but it's snug. Did you ever get that car put together?
@@mtut I know. The F100 originally had a 300. He pulled the 351w out of a 76 LTD. He got the 400 out of a 78 F150 4wd. I still have the 351w but I no longer have that car. I’m actually in the process of getting ready to put it in my 65 I have now. It’s tight but I already have the headers for the swap since I’m using a mustang Steve clutch cable kit on the 65 I have now.
I dropped a 400M into a 59 Ford Panel truck in El Paso back in 1989. To use the 3-speed trans I had to use a bell housing from a 429 truck. Yep. The 400M never came from the factory with a standard trans behind it. but the bolt pattern on the back is the same for the big blocks. Truck hauled my two British bikes and a thousand pounds of tools out to San Francisco that year. Enormous power. Often wondered what happened to that old rust-free Texas truck after I sold her.
The 400 in the 77-82 pickups was available with a 4-speed manual from factory. I used to drive a 1978 F250 with the 400 and a NP435 and it was a great workhorse around the farm - and still would get 16 mpg on the highway if you kept it under 70 mph, which is ... . Quite a number of 78-79 Broncos came with the 400 and 4-speed. I can also confirm driving a 1980 F250 4wd with the 400 and 4-speed. But you are right, the 400 usually came with the 429/460 bolt pattern (the 351M too). There's one exception, some of the early 400s (pre-1975) came with the regular Windsor/Cleveland "small block" bolt pattern - I've never seen one, but allegedly they went into some mid-size cars and allowed them to use the FMX transmission, which was still a go-to automatic for midsize V8s at the time. It sort of made sense - sort of - the 390 had been used with the Cruise-O-Matic before the C6 came out, and this way on the production line they could build the car the same way for a 400 as for a 351W/351C. And then they dropped the idea. My guess is that they started looking less at the 400 as a step up from the 351, and more at the 400 and 351M as ways to sell fewer 460s in the larger cars. And then they stopped making FE engines for the F100-F350. It's always a long story with Fords.
Great info.The 351/400M has the big block bellhousing the same as the 429/460.And the 351C has the small block bellhousing the same as the 302/351W.The 429/460 is common swap in place of the 351/400M.
Except for the 400s with small block patterns. They used FMX trannys. 72-74. I have a 400 Galaxie and was very tempted to do the swap but the engine I could get was bare. No a/c, p/s, alternator brackets, exhaust manifolds and here in Oz very hard to find. Our [rhd] engines used different right side manifolds to US models. Part numbers end in AM,, Australian modified.
Thanks for this information because I’ve been a Ford guy all my life and once owned a 73 Cougar with a 351 Cleveland. But I never really knew the external differences between the Cleveland and Windsor. From all the research I’ve done the 400 was introduced in 1971 and the 351M, which Ford never really had a nomenclature for the M; came out in 75. The 351M was based on the 400 but with a 3.5” stroke vs a 4.00” stroke from the 400. Both were last used in early 80’s trucks. I recently purchased a 72 Galaxie with 351W of unknown origin. I’d like to swap that out for a 400.
You can tell closed vs open chamber heads by the presence of a dot or not on the cleveland heads. A 2v will always have the dome, a 4v closed chamber heads had no dot and the open chamber had the dot. The 4v heads also had a small valve version in 73 which is identical to the oc heads other than having 2v sized valves and the part number.
YES! More info on the 351W 2V vs 4V heads/engines please! I have a 1969 351W/FMX that have been married since 1969, pulled from a donor and installed into my '67 Mustang when I bought it. It still had a 2V carb and everything looked stock. I would like to know how it's different from the higher HP 4V, and what I would need to do to give it full 4V treatment. Thanks!
Check the cylinder head part number, a C9OE or D0OE head is what you want to see. for 1969 and '70, the 351 Windsor all got the same head. So, if you have the right part number, you already have the better head.
If I remember correctly. The 351m was the replacement for the 351c. In 1975. The 351c was discontinued after the 1974 model year. The 400m was also introduced in 75.
@@matthewq4b Ford introduced both the 351m & the 400m in 1971. The 351m was built to replace the 351c & the 400m was built to replace the 390. The 400 is actually called the 400m. Google it & do some research.
@@richardisner3671 WRONG the 351M was introduced for the 75 model year. It replaced the 351 Cleveland whos last year of production use in NA was for the 74 models. The 400 was NEVER called the 400M. Go on show one piece of Ford literature calling it this. I DARE YOU... the ONLY reason the 351M got the Michigan/Modified suffix was to differentiate it from the other 2 351's. You clearly have no clue what you are talking about.
Great video! I would love to hear more information about keeping Cleveland 2 valve heads for a 4 barrel intake swap. Versus 4 valve heads for 4 barrel intake.
Pretty sure the 2V and 4V heads are interchangeable with either 2V or 4V intakes with the exception of the intake runners not being the same size but I believe either intake would physically bolt up to either cylinder head. And now and now that I have said it on the Internet, it must be true!
The intake runner sizes were WAY different sizes on a 2v vs 4v, so they don't mix and match properly. You'd want to put an aftermarket 4bbl intake on an engine with 2v heads. Even in the aftermarket, however, there are separate intakes for the 2v and 4v heads because you might want to have a better 4bbl intake for your 4v heads...so be careful.
Wow a lot of dispute. Thanks for sending me the response about my project you should see an email from me about 67-68 mustang frame rails. Thank you for alil ford information need to disclose you are not trying to be the one and only source of ford intellect (as though some ppl think by the argumentative statements) keep on keepin on bud
Suggestion; do a live video everyday could be ten minutes or an hour Bad Chad does live one hour everyday. No editing. Better yet just Monday through Friday 😎
Whew. Problem is we can't be out there everyday for an hour. But I like your idea. We are planning to jump into shorts in the next few weeks, that will up our content but not by that much. We are also planning to add a show on one of our later vehicles. As Andrew gets more and more comfortable, we will move more into a "producer" role and have him be out mainline editor. This will allow for streamlining the produciton.
@@AutoRestoMod The Boss 302 was the only factory Clevor. Here's a video of 552 Boss Clevor V12 making over 697 HP built by a man from his garage name Jen Bakerth-cam.com/video/YAfoe5ncm9M/w-d-xo.html
I was told by an engine builder of 23 years that ford never marketed any of their engines as small block or big block and that was just Chevy nomenclature. I would like to see if there is any ads that actually do. I understand it’s semantics like calling a 400 a 400m but I’d still like to know
If you look at sales literature, it is just engine size in the brochures I'm showing 1971 since they have the 135 Boss (that isn't listed as such except in the options) www.oldcarbrochures.com/static/NA/Ford_%20Mustang/1971_Ford_Mustang/1971%20Ford%20Mustang%20Brochure/1971%20Mustang-16.html
Fairly simple really. We will forget poverty engines. 4" bore engines only. 289 and 302 W look very similar. Put the 302 rods and pistons in a 289 and you have a 302.. 8.2 deckheight tiny little thing. Later engines are very thinwall but are far better in metalurgy. Blocks, cranks rods. Heads at best really do not flow! Went from 68 until early 2000s with some serious upgrades. Valves inline and thermostat in the intake. 351W. far bigger and heavier with 3" dia mains and slightly larger heads. 9.5" deck. In reality a great truck or full size car grunter. 4500 rpm standard an it is all over. But plenty of torque. Again valves inline and thermostat in intake. Cleveland,,you have forgotten the Aussie 302. Same block as a 351 with different crank and rods. All Clevo heads are really too big for the engines. Basic design is very good just huge ports and valves. 302s are torqueless. 351C. Come in many forms. From low comp 2V 2bbl gunkers to 11-1 4V head engines. Far heavier than a 302W, similar to a 351W. In reality poorly oiled and cooled but do go surprisingly well. The canted valve heads have huge ports, 2V has a bigger intake runner dimensions than a race Chev! And bigger valves!! They lack air speed with such big ports. For decades the even larger 4V ports have had people filling the ports to make airspeed. Valves really are big block size. The Clevo only had a short life,69 72 in the US and until late 82 in Oz. The M engine. Which is a tall deck Clevo, the block is an inch taller. 4" bore and longer rods. 351s seemed to be mostly trucks. Odd engine, way too big for smaller cars. The 400 had a limited life also. 4"bore and 4" stroke. 6.55 rods. From 71 to late 70s. Performance parts are very thin on the ground for them. They use Clevo cams and heads with bigger chambers. Good full size car engine. Again 3" mains and run out of puff at 4000 rpm. standard. They were factory ever only 2bbl. Big blocks. The FE engine came in various deck heights and capacities. 390, 427 and 428 are the serious ones. 428 is a tall deck small bore engine with longer stroke than the short deck shorter stroke 427. One a revver the other a grunter! 429 460. Largish engine with Clevo type canted valves on an short engine similar in design to a Windsor. Quite a good engine and can be made to go hard As for town names plenty of Windsors were made in Cleveland. Clevos too were made in Australia
the engine you had in the 72 Torino was a 400, unless someone installed it in 75 or later, Ford didnt produce the 351m until the 75 yr, it was to replace the 351C which Ford stopped production in 74
Not quite that easy. Yes they bolt on but then a good amount of modding required to plumb up the coolant. Boss 302 was a Clevo headed Windsor. And as I am trying to build a 3.4" stroke Clevo headed [CHI] 302W parts are very hard to get.
Maybe elaborate on why Ford produced two variants of 351 cu in engines. Also the race heritage that produced the Cleveland style cylinder head and how race rules required production cars to include them. Don't forget Bunky Knuedsen's role in pirating Oldsmobile and GM big block engine technology that "may have inspired" the Boss series engines.
I’ve seen some debates as to wether the M in 351M actually stands for “Modified” or not. Some have said that Ford never officially called it a “Modified”. IDK…..
It was a letter that wasn't "W." And "M" looks like an upside-down "W." That's all anyone knows for sure. Any letter of the alphabet that wasn't C or W would have worked. I think it stands for "Marketing," "Masturbation," or "Moron." All more compelling contenders than Michigan, Modified, or (we also use to hear "Midland.). The entire story of the 351M runs through the bizarre history of the 400. Ford had to pivot several times in the 1970s and their 400 - despite its origins in a legendary high-performance engine - was basically a compromise along the lines of Chevy's small-block 400; only, it didn't make the same compromises. For the 351M, Ford had already decided (even when the 351C was around) that in non-performance applications, for marketing purposes, they were just going to sell a 351 is a 351 and the buyer didn't need to know the difference. So although the 351M could theoretically make more power than the 351W - just like the 351C - they had no incentive to make it excel. Especially when the consumer who wanted more power could just buy a bigger engine (400 or 460). No factory 351M was ever putting out anywhere near what it was capable of. But that's the story of most mid-to-late 70s V8s.
Can you do one talking about 260, 289,302 Hipo or standard?? I see a lot of arguments on a couple boards I follow. I’m told they never had a 260 Hipo, comet?? But I have the badges that came with the car, that appears correct as well as original engine, the badges say 260 Hipo. Later
So almost 60 years after the fact, no one added the Hi-Po backing to the 260? AFAIK there is no VIN code for a Hi-Po 260, or even a mild 4bbl version. If VIN decodes to a 2bbl 260, that what was originally installed. The Hi-Po 289 was installed in a few late '63 Fairlanes, got it's foothold in '64 Fairlanes & '64½ Mustangs.
I said it all looks correct. I do know what I’m looking at. I am asking Jeff. Nothing against you. But the same response that you are giving here is why I’m asking him.
To my knowledge Ford never did a HiPo 260. It was always a 2 barrel. There were some 289 4V Comets built in Canada with the "K" engine designation but those weren't true 289 solid lifter engines.
@@AutoRestoMod I know back in those days ford and mercury ran close. But how close is the question I guess. It does have an aftermarket intake and carb. The originals are long gone.
A computer controlled carb engine,, with a seperate distributor?? Sorry does not compute!! First efo was late 80s Windsors. Here in Oz the Clevo when subjected too ADR27A smog rules went from a strong reliable [if not abused] thing that was even half economical to a 12mpg [302 or 351] gunker that ate valve guides, valve seats, valves and lipped the blocks far worse. I presume similar for US engines.
@@ldnwholesale8552 you read that wrong. Ford invested heavily in computer controlled machines later called CNC, computer numeric control, to manufacture the engines as Ford cast their own blocks, heads , cranks, rods etc..and the tooling used was computer controlled. Also the first Ford computer, or electronic, engine control was in 1974 known as the Duraspark ignition module and fuel injection was in 1984. The problem of seat erosion was due to lead being removed from gasoline. That erosion caused largely due to induction heat treated seats instead of hard inserts like everyone uses now.
@@AutoRestoMod not counting Australian heads and experimental heads there are 5 production heads for Clevelands. 1.Boss 302 2. 4V closed chamber 3. 4V open chamber 4. 2V heads (all open chamber) 5. 351M heads. These have a water jacket that goes around the exhaust valve stem support in the exhaust port. Also has a M on the corner instead of 2 or 4. You can usually tell, not 100%, if 4V heads are open chamber if there is a small dome next to the 4. Also, Cleveland heads were cast in the Windsor foundry and the Cleveland foundry. The CF inside the valve cover is for Cleveland foundry.
Long story short, lost my 260 on my 1964 Ranchero. I am looking to replace it with a 302. At this point I know I'll have to replace the transmission as well. I'm not looking to race this car just restore and drive around. Would love to hear people's opinions as I am not sure if I should try to get a 260, 289 or 302.
I think the "M", if you follow the logic of the "W" or the "C" lettering would stand for Mexico. Mexico was famous for making crappy engines for GM in the 70's where the crank would wear out before the thrust bearing. After all their motto was "Cast Iron doesn't have to include any iron at all". Either that or "M" stood for "mmmmmm, blew another one up".
M stood for modified. Im pretty sure it was still built in the Cleveland plant, but shared the taller deck height of the 400. They used M to differentiate between it and the Cleveland. And a way to tell between the 351C and M is the bell housing. The M shared the big block bell housing.
The Cleveland came out of the racing program via the Boss 302 cylinder head. Those heads were designed for way better breathing, then hampered by the chassis design (exhaust ports were pinched in order to fit in everything from a Mustang to a Galaxie). The Cleveland block was an extension of the racing idea.
@1:50 you said the 429 head looks like a 351C head or a 428, the 428 is an FE motor. The 400M was introduced in 1971, the 351M was introduced in 1975. The M has 2 different meanings: 1 was because they are a modified(loose term) version of the 351C thus the reason the reason 351Ms and 400Ms were called Modifieds; 2 was because most were produced in the Michigan Casting Center, although some were cast in the Cleveland Foundry. 1971-72 400M was only Dearborn Iron Foundry or the Cleveland Foundry. All C(Cleveland) and M(Modified) motors classified as the Ford 335 engine family
Right. The reference is a visual thing, not meant to infer that the 335 "Cleveland" and the FE were of the same branch of the family tree. TECHNICALLY the Cleveland is a 335, the 460 a 385 or Lima. Jury is still out on which is most correct for the M series. Modified has been around the longest, but Michigan could work too. The Cleveland was also cast in other foundries than Cleveland.
The reason the FE engine intake is so screwed up had something to do with NASCAR requirements - but I can't remember now what is was. Anybody help us with that?
Know what? Except 427, all FE intake readily swap, with port size mismatch. Ford built various race bred 427, including low, medium & high risers. also built 427 Tunnel Port & SOHC versions. The SOHC & AFAIK Tunnel Port were banned by NASCAR. SOHC saw use in NHRA.
Boss engines produced '69/'70, & planned for '71. Cancelled after at least two introductory Stangs were produced(Bob Perkins has only survivor). Enter the Boss 351, only year it was produced. There were a few 351HO & Cobra Jet for '72/'73.
Fords getting way worse with it's nonsense. The "M" engine... seems like it should be good in theory, but people hate them. I don't know them inside and out, but it is a Windsor crankshaft in a engine with Cleveland heads. The M engines were only made in years no engine had power, and to some that might be enough to walk away. The M has the bell housing pattern for the C6 transmission like the 429/460, so that's the transmission your somewhat stuck with. I put a C6 in my car with a rare Windsor sb pattern. Throwing some power and economy away with the C6, But it should be bullet proof for the application. Most M engines I seen have the cranks torn up, I don't know if it was an oiling issue or just poor metal and heat treating. Cleveland heads were very good stock, but the aftermarket and 50+ years there just isn't a reason not to just run Windsor.FE engine fans should come to the same conclusion.
@@matthewq4b Actually it's still a Cleveland style crank with larger mains. 351 Cleveland has 2.75 mains and the 351M/400 went to 3.00 (same as the Windsor) but the crank snout is still Cleveland. Remember that the crank gear for the timing chain has a spacer built in on a Windsor and with Cleveland's the spacer is part of the snout.
@@michaelleahey2759 Ya and it is still a Windsor crank. Ford used the Windsor Crank casting patterns for the 351M and just machined them accordingly. This was part of the whole reason for making the 351M as it was basically a zero dollars modification, short of having to design new pistons. Everything else was off the shelf.
@@matthewq4b You are likely correct, but I've never heard some one just refer to the 400 as 400 in most circles. If I say 385 series what am I talking about? Most people wouldn't have a clue, so why would I go to that extreme of correctness in terms if most don't understand . On the main journal diameters the of the two "M" engines' they might me different just like the 302 and 351 Windsor. I say that looking back as 400 crank shafts need machining on the journals to fit a Windsor. I don't know if that was the mains, rods, or both. I had a Bronco with a 400 and a Ranchero that did , but was swapped to a proper 460. The 400 and 351m engines were always thought of as junk. They were the Ford 5.4 three valve engines of the day.
@@heavymetalmadness666 The 385 Series (AKA Big Block Ford) are the Modern OHV big blocks (excepting the new 7.3). And anyone with at least half a clue knows this. And If someone does not know then you spend the time to explain to them CORRECTLY what they are so they know the difference between the FE/FT and the MEL big blocks. Again there are NO 2 M engines. This is perpetuated by the clueless and ignorant. Additionally, the 400 and the 351M share the same block. There is the 400 the 400FMX and the 351M. There is NO such thing as a 400M the ONLY 400 variant is the 400FMX that had the late SBF bell housing pattern. Also the 400 or 351M cranks will drop right into the 351W and other than counterweight clearance and the timing gear spacer there is NO other machining required as they all share the same 3.000" main journal diameter and 2.311" rod journal diameter and bore spacing. This was done during the design phase as a cost-saving measure to allow the same crank grinding machines to do either 400 or 351W cranks and later 351M cranks without recalibration. Back in the day 351W's were stroked by swapping in a 400 crank. This made for a lightweight big cube engine that fit the Falcon/Pinto/Maverick/Granada chassis with no mods. And no the 400 was never thought as junk by anyone with even half a clue, it was seen as a smogged down stroked 351C. All the same hop up tricks used on 351C also work on the 400 (it did not need the oiling system mods either) and could easily be built into an absolute torque monster. Only the clueless and ignorant through the 400 was junk or a 400M. The 351M on the other hand was a piece of junk and had no saving graces. The best thing you can do with a 351M is to swap the crank and pistons from a 400 into it and make it a 400. And like unlike the 351M the 3V 5.4 is structurally sound it is ancillary items that cause it's problems. So not even a valid comparison
Not that I’m aware of, it was an Aussie thing we just de stroked the 351. When I was about 20 I had a 302 Cleveland in a Falcon with a 4speed and 9 inch rear end, went like a rocket.
What about the Boss, cleveland heads on a windsor block. Strangely most windsor small blocks (not 351) were made in the cleveland foundry. Why not discuss the differences in oiling galleries between cleveland and windsor.
There is a lot of esoterica there for sure. I plan on going into that in the future video in the future video but I wanted to put some actual working on the Ranchero first lol.
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I've got a 351W in my '69 Fairlane and I love it. It had over a quarter-million miles on it before I had it rebuilt 20 years ago and it is still running strong!
I had 321k on my cleveland which still ran fine, but valve guides where gone and she smoked. So i rebuilt it.
That’s one of my fantasy cars that I’ve always got an eye out for!!! Even though I’m a Chevy guy, I have searched for years for a ‘69 Fairlane❤ for a decent price that needs some TLC. So far after all of these years I’ve come up short. I’ve have come up short on finding a decent Chevy Nova 67-73 (most coveted 1969) or other Chevy, Pontiac, Olds or Mach 1. But who knows what the future holds. Am I right?! Until then I’m trying to get my health to hold out! 🤙
The Windsor might be better because it oils the main bearings first. When the oil is low you hear ticking valve lifter. The Cleveland oils the top first, so the mains are the first to be starved---meaning engine death.
Otherwise, the only other functional difference is the larger heads on the Cleveland. The Windsor heads are designed for low speed torque.
@@ManicMechanic82 parts and vehicles only get more expensive hard to find and damage use and miles
To add to the mix here in Australia we had a 302 Cleveland available in 2 and later 4 barrel configeration
Hey mate, pretty sure Aus kept making Clevelands long after US stopped?
Happy Aus Day
@@tonykluytmans5336 we did indeed well into the 80's
That would be part of my Cleveland video if I do it.
@@tonykluytmans5336 were they made in the geelong plant?
You forgot to mention that the Windsors have their valves in a straight line while Clevelands have canted (angled) valves so if the valve cover is off it's really easy. Also, the top of the Cleveland valve cover is basically horizontal, but that's a little more difficult to judge.
And different valve cover bolt patterns between W and C.
You missed the most important detail....
The smell....if it smells of oil brut and Miller..... Windsor
If it smells of hi karate oil and Schlitz with a hint of Candi.... Then it's me
Now 400m has a distinct smell of oil stetson and VSOP
Just sharing my knowledge
Love the info
Love and Starliners
My Dad retired from the Cleveland plant, and my Uncle ran Cleveland Engine Plant 1 for a time in its heyday. Other relatives also worked there, and when I was in high school, I thought that was where I'd go too (didn't happen). Ford actually had three plants on the same property at one point: Plant 1, Plant 2, and the foundry. Now I believe just plant one remains making Eco-Boost engines. ford also had/has engine plants in Detroit (Romeo), and Lima, Ohio (locally pronounced lye-MA, not lee-Ma as in Spanish).
The Cleveland plants were built in the Early 1950s. I think at one point, about 5000 employees were on the payroll.
Fun fact, in a press release when they closed the foundry (outsourced to Mexico to save labor costs, of course...), they noted castings were no longer in their core products portfolio... I thought its odd they didn't know block castings are the core piece of gasoline motors - you know, as in "The Ford Motor Company..." Sorry for the digression.
So, I have a '66 Mustang with what I believe (another story) is a '67 289 4V. My sense is that its a Windsor, but Pop told me Cleveland made tons of 289s, and did so before Windsor began their production run of them. My engine is a real mix-master as best I can tell, partly because I see Cleveland Foundry stamps (an f within a big C) on the exhaust manifolds, and Windsor foundry stamps (WF) on the heads (with rocker covers off). I haven't been able to get a good look at the block codes behind the starter, because, well, the starter. Its in the way, and I'm not in a hurry to pull it just for forensics.
Pop had that front row seat to how things were made, and decided to buy a '68 model Mercury, because it had the then "new" 302. And I remember that engine well.
Point is, ford engines are even more confusing that we even appreciate. I think the best proof you can get is the casting marks. But even then, there was cross shipping between the two plants of parts, and that might explain my Cleveland Manifolds on a Windsor block.
Jeff; thanks or what you guys do! I just wish I could ship my car to you to work on that scary front suspension... 🙂
Such COOL information!
There is a spring suppressor on e-bay that slides down and mounts in shocks home. I bought it & did it myself and it was amazingly easy & safe. Was like $150 or so and it works on all 64-73 mustangs as well as falcons and some rancheros.
I have a 351c in my Falcon and had a 289w in 66 Mustang, both fantastic engines!
Really enjoying your shows. You actually show details about how to fix items. And educate me about mechanical Thanks
Thanks for watching! We try and show stuff that frustrates us in order to help you not get frustrated.
Great info! Would love to see a video on the Cleveland heads, and also the Ranchero frame rail.
351 Cleveland had a projection around the timing gears.
It also has two vertical bolts for the fuel pump, unlike the horizonal hoes for the Winsor.
I know that over the years enthusiasts have been putting 4V manifolds and carbs on American market 2V Cleveland motors. Problem is I don’t know anyone who did and don’t know how well they run on the street. I had a 351C 2V in a 71 Cougar back in the late. 80s. I was still in college so I didn’t have as much disposable income as I’d have liked, and that car was an extreme rust bucket that I drove anyway (paid like $500 for it). I did install dual exhaust with cheap turbo mufflers and ran an open element air cleaner with an element for a 454 Chevy. For a while that high mileage (allegedly rebuilt but for $500, what do you really think) motor ran pretty strong, within reason. I liked it anyway, but ended up selling it and buying a new truck that started regularly and had air conditioning that worked. Anyway, while I’m not anything close to an engineer, I have wondered how a set of iron American 2V heads would work on a 302 or 351W based Clevor - for the street, of course. Aftermarket alloy heads for Windsors probably work better all around, but I think 351C 2V heads can still be scrounged up pretty cheap. Or just a warmed over 351C 2V motor with a four barrel carb, aluminum intake, and a more robust cam. Just curious.
I love Cleveland heads on a Windsor 302 block aka Clevor. Nothing revs like 4Vs on the track however 2V heads on the smaller displacement was much better for street driving. Nowadays you can buy a Edelbrock airgap intake that will bolt up for Clevor combo. Back then we made adaptor plates to use the Windsor intake on the Cleveland heads.
I just wonder how a shootout between a 302 with good aftermarket heads and intake, and roller cam would stack up against a equally prepared Clevor. Wish we had the money (or clout) to pull it off.
@@AutoRestoMod I thought Richard Holdener had one of those Dyno comparisons, but I didn't find it on his channel. I've never used any of the aluminum aftermarket heads. Cast iron baby! I've always was working on the cheap. Although I've seen complete aluminum heads for cheaper than I can buy the valve train. I'm old and I can't figure out how they make money. I have done port stuffers and exhaust plate mod to raise the floor. Thank you for your replies to my comments. I appreciate you and your videos .
Are the Cleveland heads ported and polished or are they stock cast.
@@CJColvin yeah, filling the lower portion of the inlet port and raising the exhaust port about an inch were all part of the porting. Everything was smoothed but nothing finner than 180 or 220... Not polished, it's just not worth the extra effort in my opinion.
@@gregvanderboom5011 Alrighty sounds good. Is it the 2V or 4V.
The 221-351W are Small Blocks technically they are 90° Small Blocks this was the last family naming Ford used for these engines. There is no Windsor family of engines, It is a misnomer to call the 221-302 Windsor's this was a tag started by Hot Rod magazine in 1988 and NO Ford source has ever referred to them as Windsor's.
Also The small blocks were not all cast at Windsor casting. The 221-260 were only cast at the Cleveland Foundry, the 289- 302 were cast at both Cleveland and Windsor and the 351W was only cast at Windsor.
The 351W was called the 351W to differentiate and keep it from being confused with the 351C introduced at the same time.
The 400 was never called Cleveland or M as it was the only Ford engine of that displacement and therefore did not require a suffix identifier. The 351M was given the M moniker for Modified to differentiate it from the other 2 351's. The M (Modified) suffix was used as the 351M is a 400 modified with a 351W crank and taller pistons otherwise all the other parts (except cam and carb) were 400 parts.
The 351W was introduced for 1969 model year, Cleveland was not used till '70 models. In spite of rumors, a Cleveland was never installed in '69 models. If the C actually did make '69 production, it would be documented in the Master Parts catalog, NADA. Unlike the '71 Boss 302 that was planned but cancelled, those parts were in the '71 Master Parts.
During 351W production, AFAIK all the 302 were built at Cleveland. The 221, 260 & early 289, were all built at Cleveland. When Windsor foundry opened in '66 they began building 289(though not all), switched to 351 for '69 models. Speculating here, but I suspect Windsor went through some plant enlargement. The the '69 Galaxie/LTD did not have 351 as option till mid year. I have a 1968 Windsor built 289 setting in my garage, those were built in 302 blocks. Sometime in it's life had a 4bbl intake swapped on, that came from a 1967 Cleveland built 289.
Welp, it's like this, Ford never called the Mustang a "coupe" but lots of people do. I said Windsor to keep people in the frame of mind that they are all the same basic design.
@@tombryant1104 The 302 was cast at both Cleveland and Windsor later on (80s and later) they were only cast at Windsor
@@AutoRestoMod
Windsor is NOT a basic design. It is NOT an engine family, it is a misnomer used by the ignorent and those that have no clue what they are talking about. The SBF 302 or the 221 260 or 289 are NOT Windsor's. Furthermore there was a 302W (similarly done like the 302C) it was produced and test muled by Ford in 81-82 as a potential way to increase production of a 302 sized engine to utilize what Ford thought was going to be underutilized 351W casting slots and molds .
And FYI Ford DID call the non fastback Mustangs coupes they labeled them as such right in pricing tables. So that excuse is a non starter.
So really how about you just quit making excuses for ignorance, and call the engines what they are, Small Block Fords then EVERYONE knows exactly WTH you are talking about.
Wow really gettin dirty with Wikipedia’s fact sheet… chill bud take a breath.
If the valve covers are off, an easy way to identify a Cleveland is that the valves are canted (one closer to the center and the other closer to the outside). The Windsor valves are right next to one another in a line. I just noticed that Darryl's post before mine said the same thing!
That is a good point.
Easier then that Windsors have 6 bolt valve covers, Clevelands are 8.
The 351/400 M's were cast at the Michigan Casting Center in Flat Rock (Level Pebble) and at Cleveland. MCC became Auto Alliance (Maz-duh). Now they build Mustangs that used to be built at Dearborn Assembly (the Rouge Plant) which is now the Dearborn Truck Plant that builds F 150's. Back in the 80's, my buddy used to buy a few rusted out Gran Torino Elites a year to have spare 351/400 engines for his 1978 F 250 4x4. Those engines were slugs, but we had plenty of them running around in Dearborn. Go figure.
They have come a long way as to power adders though
You also forget about the fuel pump,On the Cleaveland the bolts are in a straight line vertical on a Windsor they are the side horizontal
Trying to decipher Ford engines and transmission bellhousings is more complicated than reading Egyptian hieroglyphics wearing a welding helmet in the dark with your hands over your eyes...
Not really it is pretty simple really.
I gotta get that t shirt!!! You stole my name! LOL I’m the real Manic Mechanic with full ASE Certified Master Automotive Technician with nearly 30 years of expertise experience! I’ve diagnosed, repaired and have built performance engines, transmissions and vehicles for most of my life! And when I was just a little kid I studied engine, transmission differential and electrical schematics for hours on end. Everywhere I went I had reading material and Hot Wheels in my pockets. I’ve lived and breathed cars my entire life. I’ve had the nick name Manic Mechanic almost my whole life. Good Vibes and Good Video! 🏴☠️🤙🏼
Good to see both shared passion and name lol
@@AutoRestoModIsn’t that cool?!😎 Looking forward to seeing a lot more!!! Great work and dig your garage setup! Do you have a pneumatic lift?👍🧰⚙️
There is the 351 M used after 1974 after the 351 C was discontinued also for more Ford confusions ..
Ohhh Ford LOOooves confusion....
Yes do the frame rail video.
Im working on a 332 Y block Ford at work right now for the Fire Department Parade truck… it threw me off the first time i saw it cause for a second i thought i was looking at a sbc cause of the exhaust manifold and the distributor at the back of the block… but then i remembered about the Y blocks and sure enough i found the distributor said C3FT which told me it from a Ford Truck 1963 model… im having to do a tune up on it and im recording my progress… the truck is a 1927 American La France… hope to have up here in the next couple of days.. that engine really needs a good rebuild, but they only drive it a few days a year soo
I believe the truck 332 Y block is a derivative of the 317 Lincoln Y that appeared in '52. Eventually grew to a 368, in Lincoln & '57 Turnpike Cruiser Mercs. In '54 a smaller 239/256 Y block was introduced for Ford & Mercury consumption. Those topped out at 312.
@@tombryant1104 i got some more work to do to it today and tomorrow… it still has its data tag on it… ill double check
That is going to be cool Chapa!
@@TheFARM2019 This one sent me back in the archives, Hollanders Interchange. I thought this engine was probably discontinued by '60/'61, nope. Last usage of Y 332 was '64, in 2½ to 4 ton trucks. No doubt went back into mid '50s. Nothing is said about 1927 American La France... LOL
@@tombryant1104 the fire truck had the engine swapped back in the 70s 80s… its a frankenstine of a fire truck but its all just for show and it only needs to do like 2 mph lol
I had a 78 t-bird with the 351-m 400 and that thing was fast as hell, i out ran the police in it back in the day was clocked at 164 MPH I forget what rear end we put in it but it had legs after that .
Can you do another video on Windsor vs Cleveland with historical context. It used to be the Cleveland heads were wau better than Windsors. Now you have aftermarket options for both that closes the gap some. Thanks for doing these vids!🎬📸📽
My dad had a 70 something LTD with a 400m. My grandfather pulled a 351w out of his 76 F100 to give me as a present so I’d have a motor for a 65 mustang I had bought. Then he put a 400m in the F100. I have that truck now. Love the torque!
No such thing as a 400M, those came out in '71 and were just 400, period. In 1974 Ford stuffed a 3.5" crank in the 400 block and had to call it something, thus the 351M.
@@tombryant1104 taught me something I didn’t know. I was always told it was a modified.
A 1976 F100 would have had either a 302 or an FE engine (360 or 390). The 351W wasn't factory in pickups until the early 80s (although maybe he'd swapped one into a 302 truck?). The 302 would have fit right into a 65 or later Mustang - it's basically the 289 with a larger bore. (Could be some different holes for accessory brackets but I can't remember all the variations). In a 6-cylinder Mustang you would have needed a V8 bellhousing. People do put 351W's into the 1964.5/65/66 cars too, but it's snug. Did you ever get that car put together?
@@mtut I know. The F100 originally had a 300. He pulled the 351w out of a 76 LTD. He got the 400 out of a 78 F150 4wd. I still have the 351w but I no longer have that car. I’m actually in the process of getting ready to put it in my 65 I have now. It’s tight but I already have the headers for the swap since I’m using a mustang Steve clutch cable kit on the 65 I have now.
always enjoy your vids keep up good work
I dropped a 400M into a 59 Ford Panel truck in El Paso back in 1989. To use the 3-speed trans I had to use a bell housing from a 429 truck. Yep. The 400M never came from the factory with a standard trans behind it. but the bolt pattern on the back is the same for the big blocks. Truck hauled my two British bikes and a thousand pounds of tools out to San Francisco that year. Enormous power. Often wondered what happened to that old rust-free Texas truck after I sold her.
The 400 in the 77-82 pickups was available with a 4-speed manual from factory. I used to drive a 1978 F250 with the 400 and a NP435 and it was a great workhorse around the farm - and still would get 16 mpg on the highway if you kept it under 70 mph, which is ... . Quite a number of 78-79 Broncos came with the 400 and 4-speed. I can also confirm driving a 1980 F250 4wd with the 400 and 4-speed.
But you are right, the 400 usually came with the 429/460 bolt pattern (the 351M too). There's one exception, some of the early 400s (pre-1975) came with the regular Windsor/Cleveland "small block" bolt pattern - I've never seen one, but allegedly they went into some mid-size cars and allowed them to use the FMX transmission, which was still a go-to automatic for midsize V8s at the time. It sort of made sense - sort of - the 390 had been used with the Cruise-O-Matic before the C6 came out, and this way on the production line they could build the car the same way for a 400 as for a 351W/351C. And then they dropped the idea. My guess is that they started looking less at the 400 as a step up from the 351, and more at the 400 and 351M as ways to sell fewer 460s in the larger cars. And then they stopped making FE engines for the F100-F350. It's always a long story with Fords.
@@mtut Ah, yes-always a guess at what the 'engine-of-the-week' would be. Still love 'em.
@mtut they never made the 351m/400 with the SBF bellhousing. The Cleveland shared many attributes of the "M" series but had the SBF bellhousing.
Don't forget, the 352 FE, it had the same 4'' bore and 3.5" stroke.
Yes please. More Cleveland, thank you.
On it!
Great info.The 351/400M has the big block bellhousing the same as the 429/460.And the 351C has the small block bellhousing the same as the 302/351W.The 429/460 is common swap in place of the 351/400M.
Weren’t there a few 351M’s that had dual bellhousing patterns?
Thanks for that info. With all the crap in my brain I had forgotten that.
Except for the 400s with small block patterns. They used FMX trannys. 72-74.
I have a 400 Galaxie and was very tempted to do the swap but the engine I could get was bare. No a/c, p/s, alternator brackets, exhaust manifolds and here in Oz very hard to find. Our [rhd] engines used different right side manifolds to US models. Part numbers end in AM,, Australian modified.
@@ldnwholesale8552 Good to know .
I guess Ford also made a c6 with small block bellhousing.
@@mycontinental3611 Yup, were commonly used in E250 with the 300 I6. Probably F-250 as well.
Thanks for this information because I’ve been a Ford guy all my life and once owned a 73 Cougar with a 351 Cleveland. But I never really knew the external differences between the Cleveland and Windsor. From all the research I’ve done the 400 was introduced in 1971 and the 351M, which Ford never really had a nomenclature for the M; came out in 75. The 351M was based on the 400 but with a 3.5” stroke vs a 4.00” stroke from the 400. Both were last used in early 80’s trucks. I recently purchased a 72 Galaxie with 351W of unknown origin. I’d like to swap that out for a 400.
You can tell closed vs open chamber heads by the presence of a dot or not on the cleveland heads. A 2v will always have the dome, a 4v closed chamber heads had no dot and the open chamber had the dot. The 4v heads also had a small valve version in 73 which is identical to the oc heads other than having 2v sized valves and the part number.
That isn't actually true. I've had closed chamber with 4V dot castings.
YES! More info on the 351W 2V vs 4V heads/engines please! I have a 1969 351W/FMX that have been married since 1969, pulled from a donor and installed into my '67 Mustang when I bought it. It still had a 2V carb and everything looked stock. I would like to know how it's different from the higher HP 4V, and what I would need to do to give it full 4V treatment. Thanks!
Check the cylinder head part number, a C9OE or D0OE head is what you want to see. for 1969 and '70, the 351 Windsor all got the same head. So, if you have the right part number, you already have the better head.
Great video, I would like to see a video on the different windsor heads.
I think we will do a 302-351 "joe average" series on factory heads.
I love the esoterica, so please do both the clevland and the different windsor heads videos.
Cool, we're working on that.
Did you also know that the Cleveland motor was built in the Geelong Ford plant with some modifications for Australian conditions.👍😜😁
Yep. And NASCAR teams used those blocks for a time.
If I remember correctly. The 351m was the replacement for the 351c. In 1975. The 351c was discontinued after the 1974 model year. The 400m was also introduced in 75.
There is no 400M it is just 400, and the 400 was introduced for the 71 model year..
@@matthewq4b Ford introduced both the 351m & the 400m in 1971. The 351m was built to replace the 351c & the 400m was built to replace the 390. The 400 is actually called the 400m. Google it & do some research.
@@richardisner3671 WRONG the 351M was introduced for the 75 model year. It replaced the 351 Cleveland whos last year of production use in NA was for the 74 models. The 400 was NEVER called the 400M. Go on show one piece of Ford literature calling it this. I DARE YOU... the ONLY reason the 351M got the Michigan/Modified suffix was to differentiate it from the other 2 351's. You clearly have no clue what you are talking about.
@@matthewq4b Well I tell you. Look up ford's 400m on Google & see what Motor Trend has to say about it. You might learn something.
Great video! I would love to hear more information about keeping Cleveland 2 valve heads for a 4 barrel intake swap. Versus 4 valve heads for 4 barrel intake.
Pretty sure the 2V and 4V heads are interchangeable with either 2V or 4V intakes with the exception of the intake runners not being the same size but I believe either intake would physically bolt up to either cylinder head. And now and now that I have said it on the Internet, it must be true!
The intake runner sizes were WAY different sizes on a 2v vs 4v, so they don't mix and match properly. You'd want to put an aftermarket 4bbl intake on an engine with 2v heads. Even in the aftermarket, however, there are separate intakes for the 2v and 4v heads because you might want to have a better 4bbl intake for your 4v heads...so be careful.
OK!
Wow a lot of dispute. Thanks for sending me the response about my project you should see an email from me about 67-68 mustang frame rails. Thank you for alil ford information need to disclose you are not trying to be the one and only source of ford intellect (as though some ppl think by the argumentative statements) keep on keepin on bud
We'll keep chugging!
Good information keep it coming god bless
Almost to 100k subscribers. I have an 85 bronco with a 351 Windsor. I would love for yall to work on it
Definitely want to see the frame rail video.
Lawdy.
Suggestion; do a live video everyday could be ten minutes or an hour Bad Chad does live one hour everyday. No editing.
Better yet just Monday through Friday 😎
Whew. Problem is we can't be out there everyday for an hour. But I like your idea. We are planning to jump into shorts in the next few weeks, that will up our content but not by that much. We are also planning to add a show on one of our later vehicles. As Andrew gets more and more comfortable, we will move more into a "producer" role and have him be out mainline editor. This will allow for streamlining the produciton.
There's also the 351 Clevor (which is Windsor block with Cleveland heads).
Agreed. The Clevor is not a factory Ford set up unless you think of the Boss 302 as a Clevor...
@@AutoRestoMod The Boss 302 was the only factory Clevor. Here's a video of 552 Boss Clevor V12 making over 697 HP built by a man from his garage name Jen Bakerth-cam.com/video/YAfoe5ncm9M/w-d-xo.html
I was told by an engine builder of 23 years that ford never marketed any of their engines as small block or big block and that was just Chevy nomenclature. I would like to see if there is any ads that actually do. I understand it’s semantics like calling a 400 a 400m but I’d still like to know
If you look at sales literature, it is just engine size in the brochures I'm showing 1971 since they have the 135 Boss (that isn't listed as such except in the options) www.oldcarbrochures.com/static/NA/Ford_%20Mustang/1971_Ford_Mustang/1971%20Ford%20Mustang%20Brochure/1971%20Mustang-16.html
Yes please go through the Cleveland heads
My 351 Cleveland 2V has an Edelbrick intake and a Holley 4bbl sniper with MSD electronic ignition and it runs like new.
That would be a really good combo.
Fairly simple really. We will forget poverty engines. 4" bore engines only. 289 and 302 W look very similar. Put the 302 rods and pistons in a 289 and you have a 302.. 8.2 deckheight tiny little thing. Later engines are very thinwall but are far better in metalurgy. Blocks, cranks rods. Heads at best really do not flow! Went from 68 until early 2000s with some serious upgrades. Valves inline and thermostat in the intake.
351W. far bigger and heavier with 3" dia mains and slightly larger heads. 9.5" deck. In reality a great truck or full size car grunter. 4500 rpm standard an it is all over. But plenty of torque. Again valves inline and thermostat in intake.
Cleveland,,you have forgotten the Aussie 302. Same block as a 351 with different crank and rods. All Clevo heads are really too big for the engines. Basic design is very good just huge ports and valves. 302s are torqueless. 351C. Come in many forms. From low comp 2V 2bbl gunkers to 11-1 4V head engines. Far heavier than a 302W, similar to a 351W. In reality poorly oiled and cooled but do go surprisingly well.
The canted valve heads have huge ports, 2V has a bigger intake runner dimensions than a race Chev! And bigger valves!! They lack air speed with such big ports. For decades the even larger 4V ports have had people filling the ports to make airspeed. Valves really are big block size.
The Clevo only had a short life,69 72 in the US and until late 82 in Oz.
The M engine. Which is a tall deck Clevo, the block is an inch taller. 4" bore and longer rods. 351s seemed to be mostly trucks. Odd engine, way too big for smaller cars. The 400 had a limited life also. 4"bore and 4" stroke. 6.55 rods. From 71 to late 70s. Performance parts are very thin on the ground for them. They use Clevo cams and heads with bigger chambers. Good full size car engine. Again 3" mains and run out of puff at 4000 rpm. standard. They were factory ever only 2bbl.
Big blocks. The FE engine came in various deck heights and capacities. 390, 427 and 428 are the serious ones. 428 is a tall deck small bore engine with longer stroke than the short deck shorter stroke 427. One a revver the other a grunter!
429 460. Largish engine with Clevo type canted valves on an short engine similar in design to a Windsor. Quite a good engine and can be made to go hard
As for town names plenty of Windsors were made in Cleveland.
Clevos too were made in Australia
Windsor is a way to give a name rather than having to say 221, 260,289, 302 and 351.
Winsor engines have narrow type valve covers,cleveland engines are about 3 ins.wider head
Cleveland! Cleveland! 👍🏻
OK! OK!
the engine you had in the 72 Torino was a 400, unless someone installed it in 75 or later, Ford didnt produce the 351m until the 75 yr, it was to replace the 351C which Ford stopped production in 74
I stand corrected your absolutely right it was a 400.
What about bolting Cleveland heads to a Windsor block to make a Clevor engine.
That would be in the Cleveland head video.
Not quite that easy. Yes they bolt on but then a good amount of modding required to plumb up the coolant.
Boss 302 was a Clevo headed Windsor.
And as I am trying to build a 3.4" stroke Clevo headed [CHI] 302W parts are very hard to get.
Nice info got a 351 c next build
Do the frame rail please. Thanks in advance 😆 good video by the way.
Noted!
Maybe elaborate on why Ford produced two variants of 351 cu in engines. Also the race heritage that produced the Cleveland style cylinder head and how race rules required production cars to include them. Don't forget Bunky Knuedsen's role in pirating Oldsmobile and GM big block engine technology that "may have inspired" the Boss series engines.
Yeah, I was thinking that. from 289 to tunnel port to Cleveland heads...
I’ve seen some debates as to wether the M in 351M actually stands for “Modified” or not. Some have said that Ford never officially called it a “Modified”. IDK…..
Yes they did, it was the 400 that was never referred to as Modified.
I'mma side with Tom on this.
Modified, Michigan and others. Evidently the 351 M was not called an M. But same block!!
It was a letter that wasn't "W." And "M" looks like an upside-down "W." That's all anyone knows for sure. Any letter of the alphabet that wasn't C or W would have worked. I think it stands for "Marketing," "Masturbation," or "Moron." All more compelling contenders than Michigan, Modified, or (we also use to hear "Midland.). The entire story of the 351M runs through the bizarre history of the 400. Ford had to pivot several times in the 1970s and their 400 - despite its origins in a legendary high-performance engine - was basically a compromise along the lines of Chevy's small-block 400; only, it didn't make the same compromises.
For the 351M, Ford had already decided (even when the 351C was around) that in non-performance applications, for marketing purposes, they were just going to sell a 351 is a 351 and the buyer didn't need to know the difference. So although the 351M could theoretically make more power than the 351W - just like the 351C - they had no incentive to make it excel. Especially when the consumer who wanted more power could just buy a bigger engine (400 or 460). No factory 351M was ever putting out anywhere near what it was capable of. But that's the story of most mid-to-late 70s V8s.
Can you do one talking about 260, 289,302 Hipo or standard?? I see a lot of arguments on a couple boards I follow. I’m told they never had a 260 Hipo, comet?? But I have the badges that came with the car, that appears correct as well as original engine, the badges say 260 Hipo. Later
So almost 60 years after the fact, no one added the Hi-Po backing to the 260?
AFAIK there is no VIN code for a Hi-Po 260, or even a mild 4bbl version. If VIN decodes to a 2bbl 260, that what was originally installed. The Hi-Po 289 was installed in a few late '63 Fairlanes, got it's foothold in '64 Fairlanes & '64½ Mustangs.
I said it all looks correct. I do know what I’m looking at. I am asking Jeff. Nothing against you. But the same response that you are giving here is why I’m asking him.
To my knowledge Ford never did a HiPo 260. It was always a 2 barrel. There were some 289 4V Comets built in Canada with the "K" engine designation but those weren't true 289 solid lifter engines.
@@AutoRestoMod I know back in those days ford and mercury ran close. But how close is the question I guess. It does have an aftermarket intake and carb. The originals are long gone.
Fun fact: The 351C was the first v8 manufactured on computer controlled machines.
Did not know that. Stealing it for the Cleveland info video.
A computer controlled carb engine,, with a seperate distributor?? Sorry does not compute!! First efo was late 80s Windsors.
Here in Oz the Clevo when subjected too ADR27A smog rules went from a strong reliable [if not abused] thing that was even half economical to a 12mpg [302 or 351] gunker that ate valve guides, valve seats, valves and lipped the blocks far worse. I presume similar for US engines.
@@ldnwholesale8552 you read that wrong. Ford invested heavily in computer controlled machines later called CNC, computer numeric control, to manufacture the engines as Ford cast their own blocks, heads , cranks, rods etc..and the tooling used was computer controlled. Also the first Ford computer, or electronic, engine control was in 1974 known as the Duraspark ignition module and fuel injection was in 1984.
The problem of seat erosion was due to lead being removed from gasoline. That erosion caused largely due to induction heat treated seats instead of hard inserts like everyone uses now.
@@AutoRestoMod not counting Australian heads and experimental heads there are 5 production heads for Clevelands.
1.Boss 302
2. 4V closed chamber
3. 4V open chamber
4. 2V heads (all open chamber)
5. 351M heads. These have a water jacket that goes around the exhaust valve stem support in the exhaust port. Also has a M on the corner instead of 2 or 4.
You can usually tell, not 100%, if 4V heads are open chamber if there is a small dome next to the 4.
Also, Cleveland heads were cast in the Windsor foundry and the Cleveland foundry. The CF inside the valve cover is for Cleveland foundry.
Long story short, lost my 260 on my 1964 Ranchero. I am looking to replace it with a 302. At this point I know I'll have to replace the transmission as well. I'm not looking to race this car just restore and drive around. Would love to hear people's opinions as I am not sure if I should try to get a 260, 289 or 302.
The 302 will be easier to find than a 289 or 260. Then you can also look towards a C4 or even possibly an AOD.
I think the "M", if you follow the logic of the "W" or the "C" lettering would stand for Mexico. Mexico was famous for making crappy engines for GM in the 70's where the crank would wear out before the thrust bearing. After all their motto was "Cast Iron doesn't have to include any iron at all". Either that or "M" stood for "mmmmmm, blew another one up".
M stood for modified. Im pretty sure it was still built in the Cleveland plant, but shared the taller deck height of the 400. They used M to differentiate between it and the Cleveland. And a way to tell between the 351C and M is the bell housing. The M shared the big block bell housing.
LOL Speedlab is right.
What about the 352t engine?
Ok, we may catch now when we are looking at a Windsor or Cleveland, but can you explain them in details and why such a difference in HP...
The Cleveland came out of the racing program via the Boss 302 cylinder head. Those heads were designed for way better breathing, then hampered by the chassis design (exhaust ports were pinched in order to fit in everything from a Mustang to a Galaxie). The Cleveland block was an extension of the racing idea.
Took about 2 seconds to work out the motor he has is a Windsor, also the fuel pump bolts are horizontal in a Windsor and vertical in a Cleveland.
I want to know everything about Cleveland's! Would be cool to build a stroker cleveland that looks stock.
We've considered that.
@1:50 you said the 429 head looks like a 351C head or a 428, the 428 is an FE motor. The 400M was introduced in 1971, the 351M was introduced in 1975. The M has 2 different meanings: 1 was because they are a modified(loose term) version of the 351C thus the reason the reason 351Ms and 400Ms were called Modifieds; 2 was because most were produced in the Michigan Casting Center, although some were cast in the Cleveland Foundry. 1971-72 400M was only Dearborn Iron Foundry or the Cleveland Foundry. All C(Cleveland) and M(Modified) motors classified as the Ford 335 engine family
Right. The reference is a visual thing, not meant to infer that the 335 "Cleveland" and the FE were of the same branch of the family tree. TECHNICALLY the Cleveland is a 335, the 460 a 385 or Lima. Jury is still out on which is most correct for the M series. Modified has been around the longest, but Michigan could work too. The Cleveland was also cast in other foundries than Cleveland.
Also, the 351C 4v, and the 2V intake gasket are different...Don't bother to ask how I know.
Great information
Thank you!
yes do the frame
Oye...LOL
So the Michigan, an Cleveland are Identified as how?
I will go into the Modified and Cleveland differences on the Cleveland episode.
Good I have both a 400M an a 351m I've seen crazy builds on both always looking for more intel..
I would like to see the video on the frame rail..
Y'all killin' me. 😄
Love my Cleveland
Me too!
It's a F.O.R.D....THAT EXPLAINS EVERYTHING.
First On Race Day!
The reason the FE engine intake is so screwed up had something to do with NASCAR requirements - but I can't remember now what is was. Anybody help us with that?
Know what? Except 427, all FE intake readily swap, with port size mismatch.
Ford built various race bred 427, including low, medium & high risers. also built 427 Tunnel Port & SOHC versions. The SOHC & AFAIK Tunnel Port were banned by NASCAR. SOHC saw use in NHRA.
I'd never heard that.
so the 351-400 M, were they built in Modesto or Massachusetts
Mayberry. Actually the M either stood for Michigan or Modified. I've heard shouts for both. I fall to the Modified side.
How about the BOSS engine ie 302 boss 69/70 and 351 boss engine?
Boss engines produced '69/'70, & planned for '71. Cancelled after at least two introductory Stangs were produced(Bob Perkins has only survivor). Enter the Boss 351, only year it was produced. There were a few 351HO & Cobra Jet for '72/'73.
So where did they build the FE motors?
Good question, they were done at the Dearborn Engine Plant.
Do You have the casting numbers for the 400M heads?
Are they worth anything?
I don't. The open chamber heads and pinched exhaust ports kinda hurt performance on those heads.
Fords getting way worse with it's nonsense. The "M" engine... seems like it should be good in theory, but people hate them. I don't know them inside and out, but it is a Windsor crankshaft in a engine with Cleveland heads. The M engines were only made in years no engine had power, and to some that might be enough to walk away. The M has the bell housing pattern for the C6 transmission like the 429/460, so that's the transmission your somewhat stuck with. I put a C6 in my car with a rare Windsor sb pattern. Throwing some power and economy away with the C6, But it should be bullet proof for the application. Most M engines I seen have the cranks torn up, I don't know if it was an oiling issue or just poor metal and heat treating. Cleveland heads were very good stock, but the aftermarket and 50+ years there just isn't a reason not to just run Windsor.FE engine fans should come to the same conclusion.
The 351M is a 400 modified with a Windsor crank. There are no M engines there is the 351M and that is it.
@@matthewq4b Actually it's still a Cleveland style crank with larger mains. 351 Cleveland has 2.75 mains and the 351M/400 went to 3.00 (same as the Windsor) but the crank snout is still Cleveland. Remember that the crank gear for the timing chain has a spacer built in on a Windsor and with Cleveland's the spacer is part of the snout.
@@michaelleahey2759 Ya and it is still a Windsor crank. Ford used the Windsor Crank casting patterns for the 351M and just machined them accordingly. This was part of the whole reason for making the 351M as it was basically a zero dollars modification, short of having to design new pistons. Everything else was off the shelf.
@@matthewq4b You are likely correct, but I've never heard some one just refer to the 400 as 400 in most circles. If I say 385 series what am I talking about? Most people wouldn't have a clue, so why would I go to that extreme of correctness in terms if most don't understand . On the main journal diameters the of the two "M" engines' they might me different just like the 302 and 351 Windsor. I say that looking back as 400 crank shafts need machining on the journals to fit a Windsor. I don't know if that was the mains, rods, or both. I had a Bronco with a 400 and a Ranchero that did , but was swapped to a proper 460. The 400 and 351m engines were always thought of as junk. They were the Ford 5.4 three valve engines of the day.
@@heavymetalmadness666 The 385 Series (AKA Big Block Ford) are the Modern OHV big blocks (excepting the new 7.3). And anyone with at least half a clue knows this. And If someone does not know then you spend the time to explain to them CORRECTLY what they are so they know the difference between the FE/FT and the MEL big blocks.
Again there are NO 2 M engines. This is perpetuated by the clueless and ignorant.
Additionally, the 400 and the 351M share the same block. There is the 400 the 400FMX and the 351M. There is NO such thing as a 400M the ONLY 400 variant is the 400FMX that had the late SBF bell housing pattern. Also the 400 or 351M cranks will drop right into the 351W and other than counterweight clearance and the timing gear spacer there is NO other machining required as they all share the same 3.000" main journal diameter and 2.311" rod journal diameter and bore spacing. This was done during the design phase as a cost-saving measure to allow the same crank grinding machines to do either 400 or 351W cranks and later 351M cranks without recalibration.
Back in the day 351W's were stroked by swapping in a 400 crank. This made for a lightweight big cube engine that fit the Falcon/Pinto/Maverick/Granada chassis with no mods.
And no the 400 was never thought as junk by anyone with even half a clue, it was seen as a smogged down stroked 351C. All the same hop up tricks used on 351C also work on the 400 (it did not need the oiling system mods either) and could easily be built into an absolute torque monster. Only the clueless and ignorant through the 400 was junk or a 400M.
The 351M on the other hand was a piece of junk and had no saving graces. The best thing you can do with a 351M is to swap the crank and pistons from a 400 into it and make it a 400. And like unlike the 351M the 3V 5.4 is structurally sound it is ancillary items that cause it's problems. So not even a valid comparison
Yes please show us
OK
The Clevelands has a vave covers with eigth bolts the windsors just six.
Yes.
I've got a 75 Cleveland water neck is on the block but it's got a windsor crank the machine shop said it's a windsor
Clevor is the nickname
Where did the 302 Cleveland come from u ever seen one or hurd of one
The 302 Cleveland was only used in Australia and it's actually one of the places that the Aussie 2v clothes chamber heads come from.
Is it a Windsor or a Cleveland? 🤣Are you kidding me, that's like is it water or is it ice
Did the USA have or receive the 302 cleveland
Not that I’m aware of, it was an Aussie thing we just de stroked the 351. When I was about 20 I had a 302 Cleveland in a Falcon with a 4speed and 9 inch rear end, went like a rocket.
What about the Boss, cleveland heads on a windsor block. Strangely most windsor small blocks (not 351) were made in the cleveland foundry. Why not discuss the differences in oiling galleries between cleveland and windsor.
True enough. I figure this would be a broad stroke piece.
Please do all the different heads have a 5.0 ho going in a 66 f100 with a AOD.
OK!
The 351M, the M stood for Michigan, not modified. The 351M and 400 were made in Detroit, (M)ichigan. The 351M is just a destroked 400.
Jury is out on that one. Your comment makes sense, but my old brain will always call it a M for Modified.
@@AutoRestoMod You can do your own research just like I have, but if you always call the 351M a modified, you'll always be technically wrong.
Show video mr. jeff
Fine.
Did you know that Windsor Ontario Canada was south of the US of A ?
Aw yes the age old which is the Windsor.
Indeed!
Cleveland’s are a little different, not all heads had the 2 or 4 in the corner, some have a dot and some have nothing at all!
There is a lot of esoterica there for sure. I plan on going into that in the future video in the future video but I wanted to put some actual working on the Ranchero first lol.
Ok so we're did Cosworth com into it
Better Australia's got 302 and 351 Clevelands.
Yeah, wish that they had done that here.
What about 302 boss
I would call that a hybrid. The very best kind of hybrid lol
I would watch a frame rail replacement on the Ranchero....!!! Sorry.....
Y'all trin'ta kilt me.
What is up with your elbow brother!?!?
Frame rails, please. Thank you.
Noted! With please AND thank you!
I dont believe you had a 351m in a 72. They didn't come out until 75. You may have had a 400?? Or a visually smaller but similar 351C.
I don't believe I said I did have an M.
@@AutoRestoMod oh?? Maybey I misheard you?? My bad
Sweet. I’m LIKE #302… I’m a J code, booooyyyeeeee
LOL YO!
@@AutoRestoMod J code one year only 4 bbl used in Mustang, Cougar & Cyclone. Us Fairlane/Torino guys were not invited to that party.
Ugh...The M in on a 351M does not mean modified. You should know that.
There is also a boss 300 i6 its not offical though i think it used a wisdor head
Where did you find that? Cause that is wild! And sound pretty cool
Or is it an m