Hi folks, hailing from Australia. We've had a strong following of Clevelands over here over the years due to Ford Australia producing its own version of the Clevo. We started making them from '72 onwards; the 351 and a de-stroked 302 version, same bore/stroke as the 302W. Think of it as what a 351M is to a 400. It used unique crank and rods. Our blocks were based on the "square" casting (71 onwards), but the US tooling was unsuitable for our iron which was extremely hard and caused premature tool wear. Our tooling had to be revamped to suit. We had many Ford Aus parts unique to our market, for instance: 4-barrel square bore manifolds with 2V ports, (73-76), spreadbore were made from 76 onwards for both 302 and 351. All 302s and non-GT 351s were 2-barrels up until then. These 4 barrel manifolds were good for maybe a shade over 400hp. Imported 4V engines were fitted to GT Falcons until 74. The 302 used a uniquely cast head that didn't exist in the US. The head was a 2V but had closed 58cc chambers, smaller than the early 4Vs. These were highly prized in the US before affordable aftermarket ones became available. 302s also had longer 6.030" rods, which are also handy to use in a long-rod 351 build using specific ACL high-gudgeon pistons. All Aussie blocks were 2 bolt mains except for some later "pillow" blocks intended for NASCAR use. These had enlarged water jackets, beefier pan rails and filled-in webbing around the main journal area. The special run of NASCAR blocks were largely rejected due to excessive core shift. They were instead used in F-truck ambulances and DeTomaso Panteras until stocks ran out in 1988. The last Falcon/Fairmont with a Clevo left the factory in late 82. The idea of a 302C sounds goofy just to have a smaller V8 option but with the reduced torque, they could use the smaller 6-cylinder drivetrain behind it (instead of toploader/C6/9 inch) to keep build costs down. I have a 302C in my 82 wagon, and it goes ok. Ports probably too big for that displacement in a daily rig but does make the right noise 😁👍🏼
The block you talked about with the field in Maine wedding in the 4 bolt main we call that a boss block, but then they had some early NASCAR setups to that were a little bit different I'm new to this Cleveland stuff the heads flow good they make power but they could have done so much better with the four we had I mean the inside middle cylinders have a pushrod coming down to the edge of the porting p there's so many things you have to put a Band-Aid over bad engineering yet they got away with it but it could have been so much better. Imagine if the engineers had been on par with today's AFR HEADS, we would easily be sporting 550-600 horsepower, considering you can build a 302 dart block with AFR 205cc renegade competition heads and make 550 horsepower imagine what could have been done back then if they did just got the engineering right with the porting in the heads
Did Ford make any of the 300-6’s in Australia? I remember seeing a cab over farm truck with a 300-6 during either my 1999 or 2002 trips to Australia. My dad and his 2nd wife had a farm in the Gippsland area of Victoria.
A few notes from memory, I worked on these in Winston Cup in the mid '70s. The Windsor has a higher deck (I think .900) than the Cleveland or the 302 which were the same. You can put the Cleveland head on a Windsor but it takes a lot of work. The guy I worked for was Parky Nall. He developed what he called the "Windsor Boss". To put the head on, I first plugged the water passage to the block with a pipe plug. Then I drilled and tapped new water passages in the front of the heads and we made a water manifold from copper tubing . Spacer plates are required for the intake manifold (I think they were aluminum about 5/8" thick) We used various manifolds from the Boss 302 and 351C. We used the Windsor blocks because with the improved casting process of the Cleveland block, the cylinder walls were too thin for racing. We tried the Cleveland block but always broke cylinder walls. I also added 4 bold caps to the Windsor blocks. On short tracks we could get away with the cast Windsor cranks, but in Cup we used aftermarket billet cranks. On the Boss head we did not really touch the intake ports as they were too big for even Talladega or Daytona. That is the main reason the Chevys won more on the short tracks then. These are the main things I remember doing to build that engine. We were a job shop located in Charlotte, and were not connected with any one team. We built Ford and Chevy engines. We built the engine on the pole for the '76 Daytona 500 (Ramo Stott - Chevy) 550 HP. The Windsor Boss we were building at that same time was 575 HP.
Windsor is in Ontario, Canada not Michigan. Ford FE engines (Ford Edsel) and came in 11 different displacements, also spattered in there was 4 displacements that were tagged FT (Ford Truck) the FE was intended to be the replacement for the Y block. FE displacements range from 330 to 427. Introduced at the same time as the FE was the MEL (Mercury Edsel Lincoln) engine that looked like an oversized FE and had displacements from 383 cubic inches to 462 cubic inches and a Super Duty an engine made for truck with a displacement from 401 to 534 cubic inches.
@@dickjones6159 I think he is talking actual displacement and not advertised displacements. A 428 FE actually has 427 cubic inches. The old 427 FE actually had 425 inches but GM already had a 425 and Chrysler had a 426 so Ford advertised that motor as a 427. Later when Ford built a true 427 inch long stroke motor for their heavier cars, they called it a 428 to distinguish it from their 427 FE high performance motors.
yea Windsor Ontario Canada not Michigan that's what I always was told this guy definitely knows his stuff but I think you might be wrong on that little bit of information which really doesn't make a difference I still have much respect for this man! edit: I just looked it up to double-check and it is Windsor Ontario Canada Windsor Township Michigan does not have a Ford plant!
I worked for Navistar in the late 90's manufacturing the 7.3 Powerstroke for Ford. I visited the Windsor plant several times in Canada. But it is very close to Detroit. I spent too much time at Cheetah's in Windsor. lol
My kind of video....all info and straight to the point. It also highlights the insanity of Ford in having so many block-head-manifold variations, while other makers tried to have just a few series of engines. Good video.
My dad and I back in the early 80's rebuilt a 77 400. We only did a mild performance makeover on it, as it was for our F-250. Huge difference with bumping the compression to 9.5:1, mild truck cam. Kept the stock 2V carb That truck would smoke the back tires like no tomorrow! I think these engines are hidden gems. I think the early smog controls neutered them
I had a 351M in a 1979 Bronco that I bought, That would only get about 12 miles per gallon, and that was with a Holley 500 CFM 2 barrel on it. I pulled it out and upped the compression from the factory 7.9:1 to about 9 3/4:1, balanced and blueprinted and overbored .030". I put in a mild Comp Cam kit, aluminum dual plane intake with a Holley 780 carb, a set of long tube headers and dual 2 1/2" exhaust with a balance pipe and turbo mufflers. It run strong, I'm estimating about 350 HP, and still got 19 miles to a gallon. I knew the original owner of the Bronco and he couldn't believe I was getting that kind of mileage.
I wish I could take your ford kniwledge and plant it in my brain. Keep up the videos. You’re teaching me a ton that the majority of people don’t even know to teach
A wealth of info, have always wondered about the differences.I just purchased a 71 Boss 351 Cleveland,complete except for intake and dist.{literal barn find].for 350.00 no damage!,can't wait to rebuild it....Thankyou
@@indridcold8433 Not True a Cleveland is a small block. It uses a small block trans and a 289 head will phisically bolt onto a 351c but water passages are opposite because a Cleveland was designed for racing with a dry intake.Water flows thru the Windsor intake. Today's Nascar motors are all basically derived from a ford 351C head/intake design because it flows the best and that makes horsepower. Look at them all sometime and you can see. Bill Elliot proved it in the 80s when he went well over 212. mph with his steel thunderbird at Talladaga I believe. Sorry I'm not a Nascar junkie.
True !with lots more development than was ever carried out in the USA . When the rest of the hotrodding world were messing with SBC's a few enlightened souls in Australia were having a great time with their clevos. I had a mild one in a 72 F100 which would sit on 100 MPH all day when travellling out west.
+@@Mercmad In the 80s I owned a '76 OZ Falcon 351C with 302 C close chambered heads. ( the yanks never had the 302C) theose heads bumped the CR and gave so much torque down low..FMX and 3.00 9" Nice cruising car..with very long legs. .
@@BJBFOREST I still have some of those 53 cc canted 302 Cleveland heads, massive increase in HP just bolting those on but 100/130 octane AVgas needed to stop predetonation, I had just built a 351 Australian block and fitted 302 heads and put it into my 1980 ( 79 model USA) F100 and asked to do a burnout , well my 9" LSD ear blew apart, heavy foot courtesey of the Ram racing clutch and not anticipating the power increase! Learned a lesson there! Now running an Australian right hand drive 73 F250 hi Boy with a 351 the Australian 302 Cleveland 6" rods and 302 heads, sounds and goes QUITE well!
Great explanation of the Ford Heads ! I built a 351M out of mu 77 Ford LWB truck. The truck was great for towing a car trailer or loaded down till the rear bumper drug the ground. Before I built the engine you couldn't push it out of a tree, no guts. After it was built it was great for the above mentioned labors.After the build no matter what you did to the truck it got 16 mpgs towing, loaded, A/C on or off, up or down hill or sitting in the driveway not running 16mpgs. I found tons of aftermarket parts Comp Cams RV cam & alot of the aftermarket performance parts I still have some. I may save them to build another one since you shed a lot of light on the 351M. The body & frame gave out before the motor & transmission did ! Great truck !
My 81 f250 Ranger camper special with a edielbrock intake and 650 Carter carb got 18 mpg with 353 gearing and a Borg Warner t18 4 speed tranny no pollution control bs major power can only imagine a 10 speed tranny gas mileage
Had a 88 351w. 400000kms, owned by natives, a contractor and then me. Drove a 6000km trip and used 1 litre. Never let me down in the 4 yrs I had it. Awesome power in my 2wd and would scare my passengers..haha.
that is F E engine they had same head as truck 390 difference is stoke u can make a 390 out of a360 same bore same heads 2 barrel 360 had flat tops but shorter stroke take head off piston sits about 1/2 in down the hole and same cam built a 360 used interrupter crank and rods also used 360 type pistons because 390 has dished pistons then chose what head u want to use and some porting and a cam i twisted drive shafts until they made me the right one it was in a 1966 f100 and it's still around friend has it and plays with it
Got a 1979 4x4 ford custom..bought it new off the showroom floor.. it was a dog..gas hog.. after the warranty was gone ..took all the smog stuff off.. did some carburetor work..ignition timing settings.. got rid of the catalytic converter..it came to life started getting 16 to 18 mpg .. at a 1000,00 miles she blew!!! Found a new rebuild in a Dallas/ ft.worth speed shop.. best investment I ever made..runs great..getting a solid 18 mpg. Out of it.. still running it to this day!!!
From what I can remember the Cleveland assembly plant used different heads, different valve style and cooked the blocks to a higher temp. There was also a difference in the valve cover bolts and the mains if I remember right. The bottom line for me was the higher block temp. Supposedly the Windsor's came factory with a little bit more power via the cams. Anyhow, thanks for clearing up some stuff. Great channel.
I drove a ‘78 Bronco with a 351M two barrel for ten years as my daily driver getting 6.5 mpg. The crankshaft broke while driving on the freeway at 70 mph. With 4:10 gears it was probably turning 3,500 to 4,000 rpm. I called a machine shop about rebuilding it and he told me exactly where the crankshaft broke before I was able to tell him. He convinced me to bore it 30 over and use the 400cu rotating assembly. I also had the stock heads ported. Used an aluminum after market four barrel intake and carb, added headers and also had a new cam installed that added duration with over lapping opening. I couldn’t add lift because with the longer stroke the valves would hit the pistons. That caused the engine to produce no vacuum that killed my brakes that had been awesome before that. I also made a mistake of using the four barrel head gaskets that blocked the water passages on the two barrel heads. It caused severe overheating quickly and I had to tear it back apart and change the head gaskets. I drove that Bronco for another nine years now getting 7mpg. The changes to the 351M really made a huge difference. I loved that truck and I regret selling it to this day. I had also lifted it 6” and had 36” tires on it. With 410 gears and front and rear posis in it, it would drive through anything. It drove through three foot deep snow like it wasn’t there and through rivers deep enough that the water was coming over the hood. I’m sure that if I had lost momentum the water would have swamped the motor. I keep my eyes open for another ‘78-‘79 Bronco but I haven’t been able to find one that I didn’t need a mortgage to buy it 😢.
Thank you for taking the time to make these videos, understanding the differences is very useful. note; if you can find a cheap engine with low compression (like the 351M you feature for $50) but it still has a strong bottom-end, it might take turbo/super charging well...
@ , the smaller mains of the C are better at higher RPM. The larger the main the higher the friction factor and larger crank journals require a better oiling system due to the higher rate of cast-off of larger journals. Each of the 351s has its advantages, but, I have never seen a Cleveland fail due to a weak bottom-end.
had a 1971 ford L T D with a 351 / windsor just a great engine small but packed with dependability assurance . one of the best little engines i have ever had . i would like to have that car back . (GB) ~~~~~~~ (MULDEW) gary b . ☆
Thankfully now days (2019) there is an enormous amount of aftermarket support for the small block ford w and c families. John Kasse has a head called the p38 which is basically a nice Cnc ported deal for a Windsor that uses the canted style valves like a Cleveland. Most windsor guys I know basically jump right to trickflow high ports for their engines but I am curious to see how those p38s would do.
Firstly, and maybe someone already mentioned it, the Windsor plant is in Windsor, Ontario, Canada, where they also made the Essex engines. You also missed mentioning two of the most famous FE engines, the 427 and the 406. The Cleveland heads came in a variety of designs. The 4V closed and open chamber, the 2V closed and open chamber and the Boss heads which had screw-in rocker studs. For a good street 351 or 302, the 2V has better torque while still making lots of HP, especially on a 302, and in either head, the closed chamber is better due to its quench area. For a large cube motor, which head you use depends on the RPM and what you are building it to do. A 4V Cleveland head can move a lot of air, out-flowing a 427 rectangular port BB Chev, so you can see why it is a good horsepower and higher RPM head, but, also, not necessarily the best head for a street/strip stormer where you want torque and can't use the RPM. Also, for a heavy vehicle or a stump-puller, the 2V may be a better choice. The 2V closed chamber is a rare bird, I believe, only in Australia, where they also had a slightly different 302 Boss head. Australia used the Cleveland a lot longer than in the US, probably due to laxer emission regulations. The 351W head everyone used to want is the 1969 4V head. It can be identified by 4V cast into it and adjustable rockers. Later on, everyone started looking for the GT40 head, which can also be found on some trucks. Also, 351W has two different deck heights, so if you are building one, be sure to know which one you have before ordering pistons. I built one with the tall piston in the short block and the piston stuck out of the block a few thousandths. It went over 100,000 miles in a delivery truck and the owner was very impressed with the torque, but, in a performance engine, it probably would have destroyed itself at higher RPM.
I built a 400m for my 76 F100 two years ago. Bored 30 over, thumper cam, (non roller) upped the compression, edelbrock performance intake 650 cfm carb, balanced rotating assembly, Headman headers. Had a local speed shop do the heads. Hardened seats, stainless valves, matched springs to cam. Interestingly, these were the smog heads and they work pretty well. Edelbrock now makes aluminum heads for these motors. I've never had it on the dyno but I'm guessing 350-400 hp. I got the rotating assembly from T. Myeres in Minnesota. I'm gonna keep tabs on your progress with your 400 build. Cool vids, thanks! -Jim
I need one for my 69 ranchero GT. It was my stepdads and he pulled the original 351C out to freshen it up. He put a Windsor in it to keep driving the car, then while it Sat in my grandpa's garage my loser uncle scrapped it for beer money.
Thank you for this very informative video. Between my wife and me we've owned a 1966 Mustang coupe 289, 1969 Mustang Mach 1 351W, 1973 Mustang Mach 1 351W. Now we have only an 1993 F250 Crew cab 460 to pull our trailer.
Not too good for a 4x4. The 460 is a heavy boat anchor. I have been stuck in a 460 powerd pickup on ground hard enough my 292 powerd 66 could drive on top of with just 2wd
Cleveland makes a great truck motor. Use the TM-580 cam. Advance it four degrees. You'll have torque. Even with closed chamber 4 v heads. Don't comment until you tried it. Its a myth 4 v heads dont make torque.
Awesome info. Thank you. I've owned/swapped cars and trucks with 302s, 351M, 429, 460 and 428. They were all pretty low power (stock) engines except the 428, which was a monster. My buddy built his 400 and it was a beast. We used to race his 4x4 F250 on 33s against cars and win often. It was the early 90s so cars weren't as fast as they are today, but it was always great seeing the look on people's faces when that giant truck would pull away from their trans am-taking their money with it. lol
Multiple engine builders since the introduction of the canted-valve 351C ran into an apparently forgotten serious design flaw of the canted valve engines. (Note: Steve Christs book writes of this). This particular head design has the exhaust valve port turning 120 degrees, from the floor of the port to the point perpendicular to the valve. This sharp turn exiting the valve "stalls" the airflow, creating a turbulent flow along the bottom floor of the port...effectively making the port only 66% effective. Engine builders in the early "Pro-stock" series found by milling away the entire exhaust port, fabricating entire new ports, welded & machined in, changing the exit angle, could they get good flows from those ports...in stock configuration, getting good airflow is impossible, severely limiting power output.
I agree the exhaust port on the Cleveland heads is a big drawback, I was able to get my % of flow up to 74% with a bigger ex valve and porting raise the port ceiling and blend it bowls but you are right by today's standards even 74% is pretty poor flow especially for all the work and time it takes to do it but you can improve them somewhat the best head we have found for making really good all around power are trick Flow's power Port Cleveland heads they work great for a street rod or can be used to race with a more aggressive cam/intake /compression ratio combo
351/302c heads have a bump,cast in the ex port to make them torqey,there basicaly built for trucks,NOT cars,cars run windsor,trucks run clevo.,BUT,they can be made to win races,very strong ,will do 6.5k revs std,.chev cant.,hard to kill,windsors break cranks,302w,,,351w too small heads ford should of uped them
@@phantomwalker8251 the windsor is the truck engine. Thus why it has 3' mains. Cleveland was the passenger car engine. So much misinformation in this thread
@@brandonhumphries3377 ,i know,clevo was a truck engine,low revs,heaps torque.heads bit funny exhaust.easy fix.guys here in aus dont mind either ,clevo.s go for ever,windsor bit rare,never got a lot,mainly 289/302,few 351.pity the heads were so small on the 351w.we put 302 heads c.,on 351c,makes about 12.1 comp.no issues,done this to my bronco as 351 heads were trash,302c.s been on for 10 yrs,std motor,goes great guns.no fuel,runs lpg.only,like driving a diesel,dont back off.&,economical.16lt 100ks.
@@phantomwalker8251 In North America, the 351 Cleveland wasn't a truck engine. 351 Windsor and 351 Modified engines were used in trucks. The 351 Windsor was slated to replace the FE engine series. Clevelands aren't low revving small blocks. Cleveland engines love RPM'S.
Man! Your dead on. My father is a 60 year master mechanic. Accredited through every manufacturer to date and he says you know what your talking about. He's big time Ford. I use everything that's built well myself and it's good to find a very good mechanic out there for the truth on today's makes.
Thanks for the videos! The industrial engines you mentioned...when I worked in a machine shop years ago, I built several 361 and 391 FE series engines. They had 4 ring pistons. I also built a 500ci. The block was very similar to the 6.9/7.3 diesels with an oil galley right above the pan rail and a similar oil cooler as well.
Only owned a couple Fords in my 68 years. 20 years ago I bought a '77 Thunderbird. That was a very good running car with 351 Windsor. A pleasure to drive, ac so cold you needed a sweater when it was 110°. 6 years ago I bought a '97 F150 with 4.6 and with 200,000 miles it today runs like a dream. Under the hood it says made in Canada.
Easiest way to wake up a 351/400M is to find a set of 351C 4V heads with the smaller combustion chambers. The 351C guys don't want them because the chamber is to small for high RPM power, BUT, if you stick them on a later 70's 351M, it bumps the compression up close to 9:1, and makes a BIG difference. The 4V heads can be found pretty cheap usually. There are better/more potent options, but then they cost more $. If you are just trying to make a snappy V8 on a budget, a 351m with 4v heads won't dissapoint.
Well, you are wrong. The small combustion chamber heads is the diamonds. All Cleveland builders want the so called closed chamber heads. All the other 351c heads is pretty much rubbish.
Davenhla wrong dude...the 351c 4 v heads were used for racing. They had larger ports than the 2 v heads and they made top end power at higher rpms. Up to 8500 rpm. The Cleveland 2 v heads were better suited for Street because you didn't have to run them at such high rpm to get their potential peak power. The 351c was a race bred engine used in cars like the Pantera. Then were adapted for Street use. The 4 v heads were generally used with a single plane intake. The 2v head was used with a dual plane intake. The 2v head had 21/2 inch intake ports. And I've heard it said that you could fit a tennis ball inside the 4 v head intake ports but I don't know for sure about that or what the exact size of the ports were on the 4 v head. I just know that the 2 v head was better suited for Street use.
Davenhla you are a little bit confused there dude...the 351 4v heads are for the higher revving race version of the 351 c. They have huge intake ports that are better suited for racing and high rpm . Up to 8500 rpm. I'm pretty sure the chamber size is the same on both heads but the 2 v heads have smaller intake ports to help create higher air velocity at lower engine rpms. When they are port matched to a medium rise dual plane intake manifold with a properly matched carburetor and cam it's a better choice for Street performance because it developed more torque and HP at lower more useful rpms...
The 351C 4V heads had intake ports that were about equal in size to the intake ports on the 429/460. Those things would REALLY BREATH at higher rpm's. They were pretty useless for street use though as street engines weren't going to be spun to over 7000 rpm.
My dad had a '70 Torino 351 Cobra Jet, pretty fast car. My 69 Chevelle SS 396 (350hp) ran about 3 car lengths slower in the 1/4 mile. I had a '78 Bronco with a 351 Modified, It wouldn't pull a greasy string out of a cat's ass.
I used to have a Ford Crown Vic ex cop car, it had a 351 Windsor. I removed the pollution stuff and welded closed the air passages which used to pump air into the back of the heads, removed the EGR and it also had this horrid "variable venturi" carb on it which I replaced with a regular one. It ran pretty good after that, but was nothing as powerful as that Cleveland on Nick's dyno.
On the street the Windsor was the better performer in stock form.The Cleveland could make more hp at higher rpm but you had to put on headers to really make them run. I have had both and I prefer the Windsor overall.I have also built a number of both, and the Cleveland can make a lot of hp.
I built a 351W one time and put a Sealed Power low rpm cam,cheapie, in it and put it in a 1957 Ranchero. It would scream.best build I ever did.I loved that engine and wish I had it back.
I LOVED my 351m400 that I had in my '78 Bronco . TONS of power with a 14 to 1 compression . LOVED LOVED it couldn't kill it .I would totally have another one
"The guy who thinks he know everything, run away from him because he going to brake things and hurt people" love it ha ha ha ha that funny can i quote you on that?
As others below have mentioned there was another Cleveland block, the 302 and 351 Geelong thickwalled block cast in Geelong, Victoria Australia. These blocks did not suffer from casting cracking at the webb at rear like the Usa thinwall casting. The Australian 302 cu Cleveland, yes a 302 Cleveland was a destroked 351 , 3' stroke and 6 inch rod and had a 53 cc chamber head with the 2.02 intake valve, the Australian 351 heads had either 62 cc chambers or the big valve 58 cc 4v ported heads. The reason for the 302 was to delete having to supply a Windsor as a small block option and utilise same or similar components as the locally produced Cleveland. Ford F'series pickups F100, 150, 250 and 350 from 1978 - 1984 (i think) were fitted with Clevelands also. Place the small port 53 cc heads on a standard 8.9:1 or (9:1 or std Australian 9.5:1 351 block and voila an 11:1 comp very torquey engine that needs 100/130 Avgas but produces easy big hp. The HO 351 was also supplied in Australia in the 1972 - 1975 Ozzie GT Falcon 4 door, 10.75:1 comp and an underated 300hp that would rev to 6500 rpm if I remember correctly. At the time reputedly the fastest 4 door production car in the world, 145MPH ! You probably W'ONT see these Australian blocks or heads in this video.
I have read that the Cleveland block is not as strong as the Windsor. Saw a striker build in a magazine where they went 434 cu. in. and used the Windsor block with Cleveland heads I believe.
@@donalderdbrink647 A real Boss 351 is basically a standard 351c 4v closed chamber with bigger carb 750 cfm, aluminum intake, adjustable rocker arms, solid cam with bigger cam profile, forged pistons CR 11.00, different damper, bigger oil pan.
I had a 351m in a 79 short bed 4x4. I put an edelbrock aluminum intake on it and headers. I still wasn’t happy so I upgraded the cam. With the new cam it was a complete different engine. It really woke that engine up
I had a '73 Mustang Grande with a 351 Cleveland Q Code. I have no idea how they compared with the regular 351 Cleveland but I not it was probably the fastest car I ever owned.
The Q code was what was called a 351 Cobra Jet. You could also get them in the Torino and Ranchero until 1974. It was a performance engine, and actually had a lot more horsepower than the same year 429, and the non-police 460. I believe that in 1973, it was the only 4 barrel 351 you could get. in 71,and 72 , there were more 351 options.
That was a 351 4v CJ! I had one in my 73 Mach 1. My engine builder told me to go find some 2 barrel heads to build for street and put those on the shelf. That car was fast as hell until I totaled it.
When my '79 Bronco needed rebuilt I did basically what you are suggesting: 400 crank/rods/flat-top pistons/Cleveland heads/Edelbrock Performer manifold/Carter 4bbl, recurved distributor/headers/Magnaflow exhaust with a crossover/RV cam/slight lift on body. The thing had the four-sp'd trans and I rebuilt the rear-end with 31 spline axles. Wonderful rig with a ton of torque.....that long stroke really made a difference in grunt. Whenever it snowed quite a bit I would go up on the interstate with a couple of log chains and pull guys out of the ditches.....that rig would move anything. They usually expressed their gratitude.....$$$. Don't forget the 332 in the FE series and you might mention that Ford, by putting the 429 into the Mustang, screwed up the exhaust runner in the heads due to the engine having to fit between the shock towers. It makes nearly a complete U-turn....very bad. When I build 460's I ported the exhausts by leading the flow to the top of the port and Devcon-F the lower part of the exhaust in the head.....it's a dead area , anyway and this helped keep the velocity higher in the exhaust and improved scavenging with headers. What I should have done....if I had the money....was go with good aftermarket aluminum heads. I put hours into those damn cast iron heads. I think the DOVE-C heads were the best for the 429/460's. Keep the Faith.
The regular 351 Cleveland never had provision for an EGR valve, and this brought production to an end in the U.S. as the EPA and CARB tightened the smog noose.
the 1970 North American 351 Cleveland 4 barrel had the best heads they had the smallest combustion chamber with the large ports and valves. If you want a low RPM engine you may as well use a Windsor engine! For high RPM hp the large ports and valves are the way to go!
Our 351 clevos here in aus had the same heads as the us spec 2v open chamber heads, the closed chamber 2v heads came form our 302 Clevelands which were just a de stroked 351 with 6 inch con rods and closed chamber heads
The 351C really was a nice engine. I had one in a '53 F-100 with an FMX and a Lincoln crossflow radiator. Literally purred like a kitten and I'd drive it anywhere, but kids and all came along and I sold it for ~$1,200. I really wasn't up to the bodywork, but it was terrific as a work truck and if it had been today, a perfect rat rod.
The Cleveland borrowed many design cues from the BOSS 429 - HUGE ports and valves - plus, the Cleveland had the highest compression ratio of any Ford High Pereformance engine at 11.4:1 (source Ford 1970 model specs sept. 1969) That 351C became the workhorse of the '70's. It's my favorite Ford engine, with the good old 289 a close 2nd!
I read that ford hired some gm engineers I think from buick or Pontiac and they designed the Cleveland platform and is quite similar to the chevy 427 heads at the time
You are speaking of the Chrysler polyspherical 318. They were produced until 1966 I believe it was. They never used them in a serious high performance application so their potential was never realized. After that Chevy created the canted valve big blocks-396, 427 and 454.
Bozo1360 Here's one for ya - when I was in my teens and 20's there was a guy who owned a huge auto graveyard - He literally had plies and piles of those "pre-hemis" from the 50's and 60's, AND huge piles of hemi blocks, too. All melted as scrap in the 80's
My mom had a 1978 Thunderbird Diamond Jubilee edition with the 351M/400B as the sticker said. It had the factory 2 barrel but yet that heavy car could get up and go. I felt that engine had lots of potential with different intake, carb and headers. The car rode very nice and cornered well. Mom sold it in the late 1980’s.
Where is Windsor Michigan? Can’t find it on any map. I do know where Windsor Ontario since I grew up in nearby Kingsville. Boss engines came from Cleveland.
Thanks for posting, it's been over 20 years since I heard anything about these motors, your spot on thanks and keep it coming, I have a set of those 69 Cleveland Heads, you can drop an egg through those valves, I also have a 69 351W that's a good motor 30 over!
It's really funny when millennial kids see "351-4V" (4 VENTURI (4 barrel) on older Ford air cleaners and think that the engine has 4 valves per cylinder. LOL.
millennial, if it requires work, bet your ass they are not into it. manual transmissions, old hotrods, both require work. Easier to walk around a field looking for fictitious characters with a phone.
Most old school hot rodders don't know the difference between the 2V and 4V in the cleveland and 385 big blocks. The performance level potential is huge between the two.
I saw a video of some hot rod program where they built a 351 Cleveland and dynoed it with both 4V and 2V head. And, surprisingly, the only difference was a little more torque with the 2V. Apparently the ports are just too large on the 4V. The goal is airflow, and bigger doesn't mean better for ports.
I had a 400ci in my 1979 Ford F250 truck, which broke an exhaust valve spring, put the cylinder on TDC and used compressed air in the spark plug hole to change out the spring after compressing the valve to take out the keeper. I changed all the valve springs this way with new springs and it ran very well after that! I guess the springs going bad were very common as I also knew other people who had the same problem.
Close but no cigar, real Boss 351 one year only 1971 in -72 they got open chambers, 351c closed chamber heads was cast 1969-1970 but in 1970 vehicles + that the Boss 1971 had same heads with milled pedestals and solid cam.
Hi, Just want you to know that your videos are very informative and helpfull to me: I lecture 'Internal Combustion Engines' to 5. semester mech. engineers here at South Danish University (Denmark) and I must admit that my practically ICE knowledge is not so extensive than yours :-) so many of your comments and input regarding specific design solutions related to for example piston designs & materials, head designs, valve configurations etc. are very helpfull for me to bridge the gab between theory and practice. If you ever plan to visit Europe you are most welcome here in Svendborg, Denmark! Br/Mads Willum
I appreciate you're honesty. 351w,c,&m. W small block wedge head. C small block canted valve head, open & closed chamber head. M destroked 400 to 351. Done when Cleveland plant shut down to keep up till windsor plant could get up to speed. 351C 2V 4V small port big port respectfully. The oddball 302 Boss, Windsor block cleveand head, water port to intake. Now classes. 302 small block, 351W small block 1 inch taller deck height. 351C/400, 335 family. C same deck as W, 400 1 inch taller Hence the M, 400 destroked to 351. Finally 429/460 385 family. many different heads also. I hope this helps. Fords are hard to absorb as there are so many variations. Thank you for reading, Irie L Bass.
i seem to remember hearing that Ford was infamous for having a bunch of engine designs that did not interchange with each other...this seems to verify that ....
Correct Ford built real race motors you could buy for yourself. Two Hemi's one with OHC, Tunnel Ports, Boss 302's and 351C are out and out race motors tamed for the street. Many more including real truck motors not modified car motors in everything. You do have to know what you are doing though so as not to mix up parts. GM will let you bolt a 455 Olds to a Turbo 350 trans, but it won't last for a week. I guess their idea was to make several car lines and just us interchangeable parts so you ended up with Pontiacs or Buicks with Chevy motors or vice versa.
That is why you will hear the term GM stands for Generic Motors. Ford purpose built heads and engines for specific applications like Chrysler did. Only Chevy really run with the boring one size fits all.
The Windsor is like the "tiny house" phenomenon...it's for people with reduced expectations.LOL ! I once repaired a 72 DeTomaso Pantera that had a 351 Cleveland...it was phenomenal !
This is why I'm a Chevy guy. Big blocks bolt up exactly the same as the small blocks, same mounts, same bell housing. Yeah, some of the older Chevy engines were different, but they're so rare at this point it doesn't matter. Ford did so many different things, changed shit all the time, nothing matches anything else, it's ridiculous. The only thing Ford engines have in common is that you can get an intake for any Ford engine that works with their good ol' motorcraft 2 bbl. They sure loved that simple little carburetor, they put it on everything for about 30 years or so. Honestly I think those carbs are about the only thing I like about Ford, probably because it's the only thing they ever built that was simple! It makes you wonder why they complicated the hell out of everything else they ever built.
Mark Godfrey i would say a engine thats is (as you say) easy to build and produce a lot of power for not a lot of money.... I'd say thats a great design.... You really don't have a clue as to what you're saying.
Live Wire - you don't have to Know shit to work on a Chevy. And all you need is a hammer screwdriver and a pair of plyers. But with Ford you have to have functioning braincells and a little bit of automotive experience. Usually Ford guys know what bell housing is needed for s given engine. And if different motor mounts are needed we know where to find them or how to fabricate them. It's really not a problem for us. You Chevy guys are easily confused. So you need to work on something simple that doesn't require much intelligence. Working on Ford engines has never been difficult for me. My dad was a certified Ford mechanic and I started working on engines when I was 14 years old. V8s in line 6 and 4 , small lawnmower engines etc. And yes even gm junk ass engines. And really I haven't worked on very many v6 engines. Except in a Taurus and a 3.1 gm engine in my 95 olds gutless Cierra. That POS gm junk left me stranded on the interstate and so did my 97 gmc Jimmy that's had the wonderful 4.3 vortec engine... another POS gm pile of junk. The only gm car I ever owned that didn't leave me stranded in the middle of nowhere was my '67 Caprice. That's why I don't own any gm shitboxes. They suck and they will leave you stranded. That's why they put that little blue tow truck button in gm cars and trucks. Because even Chevy knows their junk ass cars suck.
Thank You I'll will definitely be watching. I own a 1977 f150 4x4 with the 351 modified. I'm going over the whole truck I have worked in restoration shop's and I like to keep things as original as possible up to a point where performance is drastically affected. I'm not a motor guy in that I can do what you do. But most everything else on the truck I will do myself. I do want to build this engine however and from what I've learned so far your assessment of the 351 modified is correct. And yes the intake manifold is better suited as a boat anchor. I pulled mine off because I suspected I was losing vacuum. And it wasn't just very old gaskets leaking it was a Friday when they cast the manifold. It was very poor. It had been sucking air from day one through holes and pitting. I didn't have the money to start the whole engine build then and was already invested in rebuilding, overhauling the transmission and transfer case etc. So I did a very careful JB weld repair and it runs way better. The idle is steady, I immediately had to back the idle adjustment down. This engine had been sick all it life. I can't wait to get into it and build whatever configuration will work best. I was leaning towards the edelbrock manifold and 4 barrel carb before I watching this video so now building a true 400 is definitely an option.
When you mention 390 low, medium, or high riser heads/manifolds you really mean 427 FE. A pure race motor with a 4.23 inch bore and a 3.78 inch stroke.
the head to get for the M was the Aussie one with the small intake runners and big valves. Also you can narrow down your mopar slant 6 rod and put in a Cleveland crank with rod and main journal spacers to reduce the parasitic drag on those surfaces. Then you need to have a set of custom hypereutectic pistons made with a short wrist pin height. There was one year (maybe 1974) that had the small bell housing bolt pattern. Also a couple years had tendency to crack in the valley when making big HP so you want to avoid those. Its not too difficult to drill and tap these for 4 bolt main (and I think some of the truck motors had them already). Considering most of the C6's had a fair bit of parasitic losses better power can be delivered to the ground with the C4 (if you can find the one year that will fit the bell housing) or go manual. I believe some of the motor home EOD transmissions will fit the big block bell housing and they can be special built to be pretty decent (but stock they suck)
Years ago I used to have a 351 Cleveland with 4V (stamped on the) Heads; in Australia. Those intake ports were huge, probably (if not bigger than, then) as big as a BB 454 Chev. Built right those Cleveland engines were awesome, and in my opinion better than Windsors; although I concede Windsors have a stronger USA aftermarket. For the street, the 4V heads were too much and you could build a better engine by swapping out the 4V heads for 2v heads, but then most guys didn’t like to do that because it sounded better to say you had Cleveland 4v heads and let everyone see the “4V” stamp on the head’s corner when the hood was pulled. The Australian Ford GTHO (running a 351 Cleveland with 4V Heads) was the fastest production 4 door sedan in the world there (USA included) for a while there in the 70’s; until (I think) the AMG came along. In Australia - back then - not much came close to that car and particularly that engine. I had quite a few friends that had 351/302 Windsors and Clevelands (some of them also drag raced), and by far the stronger and more reliable engines were the Clevelands. The Winsors would often blow bottom ends and they suffered from volumetric efficiency issues when compared to the breathing (heads) capabilities of the Clevelands. This - in my opinion - was why/how the Boss engines came about.
As do I sir....as do I. I’m learning as I go. Unfortunately I have those “turd” heads and the “smog” intake. The intake is cheap for an edelbrock performer, but for a set of trickflow heads....yikes
The Windsor engine was not manufactured in Windsor Michigan but rather Windsor Ontario which is located on the other side of the Detroit River in Canada.
They did make a 4V intake that would fit a 351m 400 engine, it was Available in the 1977 police interceptor. It is real rare But there are pictures of one on the Cleveland's forever 54 Web sight! If you are planning on building a 351 M engine the best way to improve it is to add the 400 Crank and you have a factory stroker. The advantage of a 400 is the piston deck height is the same as a 351 Cleveland all that needs to be done is Bush the small end of the rod down to .912 ' to match the Cleveland piston pin.
"The advantage of a 400 is the piston deck height is the same as a 351 Cleveland" surely you mean the same as the 351M, since the 351C is an inch lower in deck height than 351M, & 400. I've got an early 400 with an Edelbrock Streetmaster 400 4-Barrel Intake.
Bolt the big Cleveland head on the 302 don't forget to drill and plug the water jackets ,then get a boss 302 intake and it will bolt right on ,it makes a very mean small block that will eat any Chevy of Mopar,
I had a set of FORD 351 Windsor heads on my 289, !966 Mustang, the Desirable C9OE 4 Barrel Casting that had Larger Valves the 1.84" Intake Valves Valves and Larger Intake Passages. It added approximately 40 HP over the Stock 289 heads. The Combustion chamber was open unlike the 289, but the added size of the Intake Ports and Valves helped that much.
@@Myvintageiron7512 , I forget the years, but there were trucks with GT40 equivalent heads. Everyone in the middle 2000s was looking for them for their 'stangs.
460 C6 is what I replaced my 351M with. Easy swap, you can use the same radiator. shorten the drive shaft for the C6, easy and cheap.Use 72 up Torino 429 engine mounts, set the engine in and level it, drill holes for new mounts and do up the bolts.
I've never been a Ford guy. They changed SO many things every year it seemed like. I have a 55Chev Sedan Delivery that I bought for my HS graduation in '68 for $600. It was so easy to find parts for. Thanks for explaining a lot of the differences, I've always thought the 351Cleveland was one the best tricks that Ford ever made. Buddies told me that there were a lot of 2 barrel ones in various bodies that were fairly cheap. (way back when) Fords were just as fast as Chevys for the same CI, it just seemed that it took a lot more money to go the same speed. To each his own. They are ALL expensive now. lol Great channel, I am subscribed. Keep it up, you're a virtual fountain of info. I really like how you do pretty much all brands of my age of engines, '55ish - '99ish.
They were junk. The bore was too large for the block, the coolant jacket was too narrow between the cylinders so when the engine was working hard the coolant would flash into steam which at best allowed the cylinder to have a hot spot, the rings/cylinder worn out by 90K, at worst the block cracked. Then you bought a 350. Add the crappy metal GM used in their utter confidence that Americas would never would buy a Toyota...
not all small-block Windsors were produced solely at the Ontario plant, but the name stuck with the engine. The 351 Windsor has long been an engine appreciated by enthusiasts for both racing and street cars. In 2006, an enthusiast re-engineered and rebuilt a Windsor 351 to produce 816 horsepower. This was achieved without adding fuel injection, turbo charging or super charging. The name "Windsor" comes from the Ford engine plant in Windsor, Ontario, where the engine was produced between 1962 and 1969, the year in which production was moved to Cleveland, OH. As mentioned earlier, 1969 introduced the 351W engine rated at 250 HP with a 2 barrel and 290 HP with the 4 barrel. The 351W has a taller deck height to increase the stroke. While all 289, 302 and 351 Windsor’s share a 4″ bore, the 351W engine has many changes that set it apart from other Windsor engines. The intake, heads, pushrods, block height, and firing order are just a few of the more notable differences between the 351W and other 4″ bore Windsor engines.
![351 Windsor - What You Need to Know About the Ford 351w Small Block [5.8 Liter]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/qoK_a0NrtpM/mqdefault.jpg)
![The Wall Song ร้องข้ามกำแพง | EP.213 | กรีน อัษฎาพร | 3 ต.ค. 67 [1/5]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3KrlLbCsadI/mqdefault.jpg)
Hi folks, hailing from Australia.
We've had a strong following of Clevelands over here over the years due to Ford Australia producing its own version of the Clevo. We started making them from '72 onwards; the 351 and a de-stroked 302 version, same bore/stroke as the 302W. Think of it as what a 351M is to a 400. It used unique crank and rods.
Our blocks were based on the "square" casting (71 onwards), but the US tooling was unsuitable for our iron which was extremely hard and caused premature tool wear. Our tooling had to be revamped to suit.
We had many Ford Aus parts unique to our market, for instance: 4-barrel square bore manifolds with 2V ports, (73-76), spreadbore were made from 76 onwards for both 302 and 351. All 302s and non-GT 351s were 2-barrels up until then. These 4 barrel manifolds were good for maybe a shade over 400hp.
Imported 4V engines were fitted to GT Falcons until 74.
The 302 used a uniquely cast head that didn't exist in the US. The head was a 2V but had closed 58cc chambers, smaller than the early 4Vs. These were highly prized in the US before affordable aftermarket ones became available.
302s also had longer 6.030" rods, which are also handy to use in a long-rod 351 build using specific ACL high-gudgeon pistons.
All Aussie blocks were 2 bolt mains except for some later "pillow" blocks intended for NASCAR use. These had enlarged water jackets, beefier pan rails and filled-in webbing around the main journal area.
The special run of NASCAR blocks were largely rejected due to excessive core shift. They were instead used in F-truck ambulances and DeTomaso Panteras until stocks ran out in 1988. The last Falcon/Fairmont with a Clevo left the factory in late 82.
The idea of a 302C sounds goofy just to have a smaller V8 option but with the reduced torque, they could use the smaller 6-cylinder drivetrain behind it (instead of toploader/C6/9 inch) to keep build costs down.
I have a 302C in my 82 wagon, and it goes ok. Ports probably too big for that displacement in a daily rig but does make the right noise 😁👍🏼
Indeed. I had a buddy in Melbourne ship me a set of 302 Cleveland heads for my 351C Stock Car engine. Bolt on 75 Horsepower!
The block you talked about with the field in Maine wedding in the 4 bolt main we call that a boss block, but then they had some early NASCAR setups to that were a little bit different I'm new to this Cleveland stuff the heads flow good they make power but they could have done so much better with the four we had I mean the inside middle cylinders have a pushrod coming down to the edge of the porting p there's so many things you have to put a Band-Aid over bad engineering yet they got away with it but it could have been so much better. Imagine if the engineers had been on par with today's AFR HEADS, we would easily be sporting 550-600 horsepower, considering you can build a 302 dart block with AFR 205cc renegade competition heads and make 550 horsepower imagine what could have been done back then if they did just got the engineering right with the porting in the heads
Did Ford make any of the 300-6’s in Australia? I remember seeing a cab over farm truck with a 300-6 during either my 1999 or 2002 trips to Australia.
My dad and his 2nd wife had a farm in the Gippsland area of Victoria.
A few notes from memory, I worked on these in Winston Cup in the mid '70s. The Windsor has a higher deck (I think .900) than the Cleveland or the 302 which were the same. You can put the Cleveland head on a Windsor but it takes a lot of work. The guy I worked for was Parky Nall. He developed what he called the "Windsor Boss". To put the head on, I first plugged the water passage to the block with a pipe plug. Then I drilled and tapped new water passages in the front of the heads and we made a water manifold from copper tubing . Spacer plates are required for the intake manifold (I think they were aluminum about 5/8" thick) We used various manifolds from the Boss 302 and 351C. We used the Windsor blocks because with the improved casting process of the Cleveland block, the cylinder walls were too thin for racing. We tried the Cleveland block but always broke cylinder walls. I also added 4 bold caps to the Windsor blocks. On short tracks we could get away with the cast Windsor cranks, but in Cup we used aftermarket billet cranks. On the Boss head we did not really touch the intake ports as they were too big for even Talladega or Daytona. That is the main reason the Chevys won more on the short tracks then. These are the main things I remember doing to build that engine. We were a job shop located in Charlotte, and were not connected with any one team. We built Ford and Chevy engines. We built the engine on the pole for the '76 Daytona 500 (Ramo Stott - Chevy) 550 HP. The Windsor Boss we were building at that same time was 575 HP.
Windsor is in Ontario, Canada not Michigan. Ford FE engines (Ford Edsel) and came in 11 different displacements, also spattered in there was 4 displacements that were tagged FT (Ford Truck) the FE was intended to be the replacement for the Y block. FE displacements range from 330 to 427. Introduced at the same time as the FE was the MEL (Mercury Edsel Lincoln) engine that looked like an oversized FE and had displacements from 383 cubic inches to 462 cubic inches and a Super Duty an engine made for truck with a displacement from 401 to 534 cubic inches.
oh and the 428 was not a FE.. come on man.
@@dickjones6159 I think he is talking actual displacement and not advertised displacements. A 428 FE actually has 427 cubic inches. The old 427 FE actually had 425 inches but GM already had a 425 and Chrysler had a 426 so Ford advertised that motor as a 427. Later when Ford built a true 427 inch long stroke motor for their heavier cars, they called it a 428 to distinguish it from their 427 FE high performance motors.
yea Windsor Ontario Canada not Michigan that's what I always was told this guy definitely knows his stuff but I think you might be wrong on that little bit of information which really doesn't make a difference I still have much respect for this man! edit: I just looked it up to double-check and it is Windsor Ontario Canada Windsor Township Michigan does not have a Ford plant!
There are a more than 4 Ford FT engines. 330, 359, 361, 389, and 391 off the top of my head.
I worked for Navistar in the late 90's manufacturing the 7.3 Powerstroke for Ford. I visited the Windsor plant several times in Canada. But it is very close to Detroit. I spent too much time at Cheetah's in Windsor. lol
My kind of video....all info and straight to the point. It also highlights the insanity of Ford in having so many block-head-manifold variations, while other makers tried to have just a few series of engines. Good video.
My dad and I back in the early 80's rebuilt a 77 400. We only did a mild performance makeover on it, as it was for our F-250. Huge difference with bumping the compression to 9.5:1, mild truck cam. Kept the stock 2V carb That truck would smoke the back tires like no tomorrow! I think these engines are hidden gems. I think the early smog controls neutered them
I have a 351M on my 1980 Ford. It was rebuilt before I purchased and restored it. Great video!
Friend, 351 Windsor engine were manufactured in Windsor Ontario Canada
There is no Windsor Michigan🙀🤔🤣
351W - Ford plant in Windsor, Ontario, across the river from Detroit, Michigan.
I had a 351M in a 1979 Bronco that I bought, That would only get about 12 miles per gallon, and that was with a Holley 500 CFM 2 barrel on it. I pulled it out and upped the compression from the factory 7.9:1 to about 9 3/4:1, balanced and blueprinted and overbored .030". I put in a mild Comp Cam kit, aluminum dual plane intake with a Holley 780 carb, a set of long tube headers and dual 2 1/2" exhaust with a balance pipe and turbo mufflers. It run strong, I'm estimating about 350 HP, and still got 19 miles to a gallon. I knew the original owner of the Bronco and he couldn't believe I was getting that kind of mileage.
I wish I could take your ford kniwledge and plant it in my brain. Keep up the videos. You’re teaching me a ton that the majority of people don’t even know to teach
A wealth of info, have always wondered about the differences.I just purchased a 71 Boss 351 Cleveland,complete except for intake and dist.{literal barn find].for 350.00 no damage!,can't wait to rebuild it....Thankyou
My favorite is a 302 stroked to 331, a girdle and AFR's and your livin the dream.
Winsor, Ontario Canada across from Detroit, MI.
Love the video thanks for showing us the differences in the Ford 351's.
We can thank the Australian after market for keeping the Clevo alive!
The Cleveland is the large block. I wonder why there seems to be less support for the Cleveland than for the Windsor.
@@indridcold8433 Not True a Cleveland is a small block. It uses a small block trans and a 289 head will phisically bolt onto a 351c but water passages are opposite because a Cleveland was designed for racing with a dry intake.Water flows thru the Windsor intake. Today's Nascar motors are all basically derived from a ford 351C head/intake design because it flows the best and that makes horsepower. Look at them all sometime and you can see. Bill Elliot proved it in the 80s when he went well over 212. mph with his steel thunderbird at Talladaga I believe. Sorry I'm not a Nascar junkie.
True !with lots more development than was ever carried out in the USA . When the rest of the hotrodding world were messing with SBC's a few enlightened souls in Australia were having a great time with their clevos. I had a mild one in a 72 F100 which would sit on 100 MPH all day when travellling out west.
+@@Mercmad In the 80s I owned a '76 OZ Falcon 351C with 302 C close chambered heads. ( the yanks never had the 302C) theose heads bumped the CR and gave so much torque down low..FMX and 3.00 9" Nice cruising car..with very long legs. .
@@BJBFOREST I still have some of those 53 cc canted 302 Cleveland heads, massive increase in HP just bolting those on but 100/130 octane AVgas needed to stop predetonation, I had just built a 351 Australian block and fitted 302 heads and put it into my 1980 ( 79 model USA) F100 and asked to do a burnout , well my 9" LSD ear blew apart, heavy foot courtesey of the Ram racing clutch and not anticipating the power increase! Learned a lesson there!
Now running an Australian right hand drive 73 F250 hi Boy with a 351 the Australian 302 Cleveland 6" rods and 302 heads, sounds and goes QUITE well!
Great explanation of the Ford Heads ! I built a 351M out of mu 77 Ford LWB truck. The truck was great for towing a car trailer or loaded down till the rear bumper drug the ground. Before I built the engine you couldn't push it out of a tree, no guts. After it was built it was great for the above mentioned labors.After the build no matter what you did to the truck it got 16 mpgs towing, loaded, A/C on or off, up or down hill or sitting in the driveway not running 16mpgs. I found tons of aftermarket parts Comp Cams RV cam & alot of the aftermarket performance parts I still have some. I may save them to build another one since you shed a lot of light on the 351M. The body & frame gave out before the motor & transmission did ! Great truck !
My 81 f250 Ranger camper special with a edielbrock intake and 650 Carter carb got 18 mpg with 353 gearing and a Borg Warner t18 4 speed tranny no pollution control bs major power can only imagine a 10 speed tranny gas mileage
Had a 88 351w. 400000kms, owned by natives, a contractor and then me. Drove a 6000km trip and used 1 litre. Never let me down in the 4 yrs I had it.
Awesome power in my 2wd and would scare my passengers..haha.
I love the Windsor engine. I’m a Chevy man but I built 2 of them in my life and were so satisfied with them.
I had a 76 Ford F100 with a 360, I loved that engine!
that is F E engine they had same head as truck 390 difference is stoke u can make a 390 out of a360 same bore same heads 2 barrel 360 had flat tops but shorter stroke take head off piston sits about 1/2 in down the hole and same cam built a 360 used interrupter crank and rods also used 360 type pistons because 390 has dished pistons then chose what head u want to use and some porting and a cam i twisted drive shafts until they made me the right one it was in a 1966 f100 and it's still around friend has it and plays with it
I have a 71f-100 4x4 with 360 fe crazy torque for a small truxk
throw a 428 Crank at that thing
Steve W me too
360 is strong engine had one.with 4 speed in it old truck would run.
Got a 1979 4x4 ford custom..bought it new off the showroom floor.. it was a dog..gas hog.. after the warranty was gone ..took all the smog stuff off.. did some carburetor work..ignition timing settings.. got rid of the catalytic converter..it came to life started getting 16 to 18 mpg .. at a 1000,00 miles she blew!!!
Found a new rebuild in a Dallas/ ft.worth speed shop.. best investment I ever made..runs great..getting a solid 18 mpg. Out of it.. still running it to this day!!!
I had a mid 1970 xw gt with a 351 clevo top loader and that thing done 140 mph it was a beast .just had no brakes
I got 4 blocks one is d what that mean
From what I can remember the Cleveland assembly plant used different heads, different valve style and cooked the blocks to a higher temp. There was also a difference in the valve cover bolts and the mains if I remember right. The bottom line for me was the higher block temp. Supposedly the Windsor's came factory with a little bit more power via the cams. Anyhow, thanks for clearing up some stuff. Great channel.
The 351M/400 is a BEAST!! Get yourself a 400 crank, .030 bore and took now have a 408 and torque in abundance!!
@fitty6pickemup I WISH!! I have a set of Aluminum Heads. Bare.. No vskbes.. All is to be determined
I drove a ‘78 Bronco with a 351M two barrel for ten years as my daily driver getting 6.5 mpg. The crankshaft broke while driving on the freeway at 70 mph. With 4:10 gears it was probably turning 3,500 to 4,000 rpm. I called a machine shop about rebuilding it and he told me exactly where the crankshaft broke before I was able to tell him. He convinced me to bore it 30 over and use the 400cu rotating assembly. I also had the stock heads ported. Used an aluminum after market four barrel intake and carb, added headers and also had a new cam installed that added duration with over lapping opening. I couldn’t add lift because with the longer stroke the valves would hit the pistons. That caused the engine to produce no vacuum that killed my brakes that had been awesome before that. I also made a mistake of using the four barrel head gaskets that blocked the water passages on the two barrel heads. It caused severe overheating quickly and I had to tear it back apart and change the head gaskets. I drove that Bronco for another nine years now getting 7mpg. The changes to the 351M really made a huge difference. I loved that truck and I regret selling it to this day. I had also lifted it 6” and had 36” tires on it. With 410 gears and front and rear posis in it, it would drive through anything. It drove through three foot deep snow like it wasn’t there and through rivers deep enough that the water was coming over the hood. I’m sure that if I had lost momentum the water would have swamped the motor. I keep my eyes open for another ‘78-‘79 Bronco but I haven’t been able to find one that I didn’t need a mortgage to buy it 😢.
Thank you for taking the time to make these videos, understanding the differences is very useful. note; if you can find a cheap engine with low compression (like the 351M you feature for $50) but it still has a strong bottom-end, it might take turbo/super charging well...
You forgot to mention that 351c heads can be mounted on a Windsor block so long as the proper intake is used. Hence the Boss 302
...and the use of stepped head bolts
tap out the block done it @@yankeewatchdog7299
The old Clever motor. Bad ass
Boss 302 came out first and it used 1/2" head bolts. Not the same as a Clevor.
@ , the smaller mains of the C are better at higher RPM. The larger the main the higher the friction factor and larger crank journals require a better oiling system due to the higher rate of cast-off of larger journals. Each of the 351s has its advantages, but, I have never seen a Cleveland fail due to a weak bottom-end.
Thank you for sharing this informative video. I look forward to viewing your future videos.
had a 1971 ford L T D with a 351 / windsor just a great engine small but packed with dependability assurance . one of the best little engines i have ever had . i would like to have that car back . (GB) ~~~~~~~ (MULDEW) gary b . ☆
That 70's feel gb . Sound beautiful motor. I can understand why you miss it.
Excellent educational explanation that answers a lot of my questions. Thank you!
Your Welcome
Thankfully now days (2019) there is an enormous amount of aftermarket support for the small block ford w and c families. John Kasse has a head called the p38 which is basically a nice Cnc ported deal for a Windsor that uses the canted style valves like a Cleveland. Most windsor guys I know basically jump right to trickflow high ports for their engines but I am curious to see how those p38s would do.
Very interesting imformation I never new any of the differance of the Windsor or Cleveland motors.Thanks a lot
Firstly, and maybe someone already mentioned it, the Windsor plant is in Windsor, Ontario, Canada, where they also made the Essex engines.
You also missed mentioning two of the most famous FE engines, the 427 and the 406.
The Cleveland heads came in a variety of designs. The 4V closed and open chamber, the 2V closed and open chamber and the Boss heads which had screw-in rocker studs. For a good street 351 or 302, the 2V has better torque while still making lots of HP, especially on a 302, and in either head, the closed chamber is better due to its quench area. For a large cube motor, which head you use depends on the RPM and what you are building it to do.
A 4V Cleveland head can move a lot of air, out-flowing a 427 rectangular port BB Chev, so you can see why it is a good horsepower and higher RPM head, but, also, not necessarily the best head for a street/strip stormer where you want torque and can't use the RPM. Also, for a heavy vehicle or a stump-puller, the 2V may be a better choice.
The 2V closed chamber is a rare bird, I believe, only in Australia, where they also had a slightly different 302 Boss head. Australia used the Cleveland a lot longer than in the US, probably due to laxer emission regulations.
The 351W head everyone used to want is the 1969 4V head. It can be identified by 4V cast into it and adjustable rockers. Later on, everyone started looking for the GT40 head, which can also be found on some trucks.
Also, 351W has two different deck heights, so if you are building one, be sure to know which one you have before ordering pistons. I built one with the tall piston in the short block and the piston stuck out of the block a few thousandths. It went over 100,000 miles in a delivery truck and the owner was very impressed with the torque, but, in a performance engine, it probably would have destroyed itself at higher RPM.
I built a 400m for my 76 F100 two years ago. Bored 30 over, thumper cam, (non roller) upped the compression, edelbrock performance intake 650 cfm carb, balanced rotating assembly, Headman headers. Had a local speed shop do the heads. Hardened seats, stainless valves, matched springs to cam. Interestingly, these were the smog heads and they work pretty well. Edelbrock now makes aluminum heads for these motors.
I've never had it on the dyno but I'm guessing 350-400 hp. I got the rotating assembly from T. Myeres in Minnesota. I'm gonna keep tabs on your progress with your 400 build. Cool vids, thanks! -Jim
back in the late 70's early 80's I thought the 351C was the engine to have so I bought-almost-everyone I found. Now I have A LOT of 351C's.
Sir Jammer my dad would be interested in purchasing one. He's restoring a 72 mach 1
Sir Jammer would you consider selling a Cleveland
benjaminwayneb and
I need one for my 69 ranchero GT. It was my stepdads and he pulled the original 351C out to freshen it up. He put a Windsor in it to keep driving the car, then while it Sat in my grandpa's garage my loser uncle scrapped it for beer money.
stik 302c heads on them,will shock you.,
Thanks for the time in doing what you do ! Always love your content
"Clevors" are easy builds and so worth it. Stroked Clevors = Wow !
Thank you for this very informative video. Between my wife and me we've owned a 1966 Mustang coupe 289, 1969 Mustang Mach 1 351W, 1973 Mustang Mach 1 351W. Now we have only an 1993 F250 Crew cab 460 to pull our trailer.
the 351 Windsor with the Cleveland is called a cleavor my buddy had one built for his open wheel class it takes a custom ONLY built intake
I
I thought i knew everything about the Windsor and Cleveland engines,until now, still cant remember everything iv watched here, great video
Given the choice I would opt for the 429/460 , especially for a big car or pickup.
Not too good for a 4x4. The 460 is a heavy boat anchor. I have been stuck in a 460 powerd pickup on ground hard enough my 292 powerd 66 could drive on top of with just 2wd
@Space Ghost I agree I owned a '76 F-250 with a 460 and drove a company truck with a 460. A lot of torque.
Cleveland makes a great truck motor. Use the TM-580 cam. Advance it four degrees. You'll have torque. Even with closed chamber 4 v heads. Don't comment until you tried it. Its a myth 4 v heads dont make torque.
Awesome info. Thank you. I've owned/swapped cars and trucks with 302s, 351M, 429, 460 and 428. They were all pretty low power (stock) engines except the 428, which was a monster. My buddy built his 400 and it was a beast. We used to race his 4x4 F250 on 33s against cars and win often. It was the early 90s so cars weren't as fast as they are today, but it was always great seeing the look on people's faces when that giant truck would pull away from their trans am-taking their money with it. lol
Multiple engine builders since the introduction of the canted-valve 351C ran into an apparently forgotten serious design flaw of the canted valve engines. (Note: Steve Christs book writes of this). This particular head design has the exhaust valve port turning 120 degrees, from the floor of the port to the point perpendicular to the valve. This sharp turn exiting the valve "stalls" the airflow, creating a turbulent flow along the bottom floor of the port...effectively making the port only 66% effective. Engine builders in the early "Pro-stock" series found by milling away the entire exhaust port, fabricating entire new ports, welded & machined in, changing the exit angle, could they get good flows from those ports...in stock configuration, getting good airflow is impossible, severely limiting power output.
I agree the exhaust port on the Cleveland heads is a big drawback,
I was able to get my % of flow up to 74% with a bigger ex valve and porting raise the port ceiling and blend it bowls but you are right by today's standards even 74% is pretty poor flow especially for all the work and time it takes to do it but you can improve them somewhat the best head we have found for making really good all around power are trick Flow's power Port Cleveland heads they work great for a street rod or can be used to race with a more aggressive cam/intake /compression ratio combo
351/302c heads have a bump,cast in the ex port to make them torqey,there basicaly built for trucks,NOT cars,cars run windsor,trucks run clevo.,BUT,they can be made to win races,very strong ,will do 6.5k revs std,.chev cant.,hard to kill,windsors break cranks,302w,,,351w too small heads ford should of uped them
@@phantomwalker8251 the windsor is the truck engine. Thus why it has 3' mains. Cleveland was the passenger car engine. So much misinformation in this thread
@@brandonhumphries3377 ,i know,clevo was a truck engine,low revs,heaps torque.heads bit funny exhaust.easy fix.guys here in aus dont mind either ,clevo.s go for ever,windsor bit rare,never got a lot,mainly 289/302,few 351.pity the heads were so small on the 351w.we put 302 heads c.,on 351c,makes about 12.1 comp.no issues,done this to my bronco as 351 heads were trash,302c.s been on for 10 yrs,std motor,goes great guns.no fuel,runs lpg.only,like driving a diesel,dont back off.&,economical.16lt 100ks.
@@phantomwalker8251 In North America, the 351 Cleveland wasn't a truck engine. 351 Windsor and 351 Modified engines were used in trucks. The 351 Windsor was slated to replace the FE engine series. Clevelands aren't low revving small blocks. Cleveland engines love RPM'S.
Man! Your dead on. My father is a 60 year master mechanic. Accredited through every manufacturer to date and he says you know what your talking about. He's big time Ford. I use everything that's built well myself and it's good to find a very good mechanic out there for the truth on today's makes.
The 400 was a beast when built correctly......
Make sure you balance it.
Thanks for the videos! The industrial engines you mentioned...when I worked in a machine shop years ago, I built several 361 and 391 FE series engines. They had 4 ring pistons. I also built a 500ci. The block was very similar to the 6.9/7.3 diesels with an oil galley right above the pan rail and a similar oil cooler as well.
I run a 351c 2v in my 71 Torino. Love it.
Only owned a couple Fords in my 68 years. 20 years ago I bought a '77 Thunderbird. That was a very good running car with 351 Windsor. A pleasure to drive, ac so cold you needed a sweater when it was 110°. 6 years ago I bought a '97 F150 with 4.6 and with 200,000 miles it today runs like a dream. Under the hood it says made in Canada.
Easiest way to wake up a 351/400M is to find a set of 351C 4V heads with the smaller combustion chambers. The 351C guys don't want them because the chamber is to small for high RPM power, BUT, if you stick them on a later 70's 351M, it bumps the compression up close to 9:1, and makes a BIG difference. The 4V heads can be found pretty cheap usually. There are better/more potent options, but then they cost more $. If you are just trying to make a snappy V8 on a budget, a 351m with 4v heads won't dissapoint.
Agreed
Well, you are wrong. The small combustion chamber heads is the diamonds. All Cleveland builders want the so called closed chamber heads. All the other 351c heads is pretty much rubbish.
Davenhla wrong dude...the 351c 4 v heads were used for racing. They had larger ports than the 2 v heads and they made top end power at higher rpms. Up to 8500 rpm. The Cleveland 2 v heads were better suited for Street because you didn't have to run them at such high rpm to get their potential peak power. The 351c was a race bred engine used in cars like the Pantera. Then were adapted for Street use. The 4 v heads were generally used with a single plane intake. The 2v head was used with a dual plane intake. The 2v head had 21/2 inch intake ports. And I've heard it said that you could fit a tennis ball inside the 4 v head intake ports but I don't know for sure about that or what the exact size of the ports were on the 4 v head. I just know that the 2 v head was better suited for Street use.
Davenhla you are a little bit confused there dude...the 351 4v heads are for the higher revving race version of the 351 c. They have huge intake ports that are better suited for racing and high rpm . Up to 8500 rpm. I'm pretty sure the chamber size is the same on both heads but the 2 v heads have smaller intake ports to help create higher air velocity at lower engine rpms. When they are port matched to a medium rise dual plane intake manifold with a properly matched carburetor and cam it's a better choice for Street performance because it developed more torque and HP at lower more useful rpms...
The 351C 4V heads had intake ports that were about equal in size to the intake ports on the 429/460. Those things would REALLY BREATH at higher rpm's. They were pretty useless for street use though as street engines weren't going to be spun to over 7000 rpm.
Thanks you confirmed alot of questions I've had since the 70s
My dad had a '70 Torino 351 Cobra Jet, pretty fast car. My 69 Chevelle SS 396 (350hp) ran about 3 car lengths slower in the 1/4 mile. I had a '78 Bronco with a 351 Modified, It wouldn't pull a greasy string out of a cat's ass.
John Lumpkin you paint a really vivid picture.
I’m curious if the cat was ever able to extract that pesky greased up string?
That sounds bothersome.
I used to have a Ford Crown Vic ex cop car, it had a 351 Windsor. I removed the pollution stuff and welded closed the air passages which used to pump air into the back of the heads, removed the EGR and it also had this horrid "variable venturi" carb on it which I replaced with a regular one. It ran pretty good after that, but was nothing as powerful as that Cleveland on Nick's dyno.
I had a 1970 Galaxie with a 400 Cleveland. Tiddled up the heads at school. Also had non-adjustable valve train.
Great driver back in the day.
Didn’t know they made a 400 till 71
On the street the Windsor was the better performer in stock form.The Cleveland could make more hp at higher rpm but you had to put on headers to really make them run. I have had both and I prefer the Windsor overall.I have also built a number of both, and the Cleveland can make a lot of hp.
I built a 351W one time and put a Sealed Power low rpm cam,cheapie, in it and put it in a 1957 Ranchero. It would scream.best build I ever did.I loved that engine and wish I had it back.
I LOVED my 351m400 that I had in my '78 Bronco . TONS of power with a 14 to 1 compression . LOVED LOVED it couldn't kill it .I would totally have another one
"The guy who thinks he know everything, run away from him because he going to brake things and hurt people" love it ha ha ha ha that funny can i quote you on that?
sure it's just truth
@@sorryimajerk735 and your a goof with grade 12
As others below have mentioned there was another Cleveland block, the 302 and 351 Geelong thickwalled block cast in Geelong, Victoria Australia.
These blocks did not suffer from casting cracking at the webb at rear like the Usa thinwall casting.
The Australian 302 cu Cleveland, yes a 302 Cleveland was a destroked 351 , 3' stroke and 6 inch rod and had a 53 cc chamber head with the 2.02 intake valve, the Australian 351 heads had either 62 cc chambers or the big valve 58 cc 4v ported heads.
The reason for the 302 was to delete having to supply a Windsor as a small block option and utilise same or similar components as the locally produced Cleveland.
Ford F'series pickups F100, 150, 250 and 350 from 1978 - 1984 (i think) were fitted with Clevelands also.
Place the small port 53 cc heads on a standard 8.9:1 or (9:1 or std Australian 9.5:1 351 block and voila an 11:1 comp very torquey engine that needs 100/130 Avgas but produces easy big hp.
The HO 351 was also supplied in Australia in the 1972 - 1975 Ozzie GT Falcon 4 door, 10.75:1 comp and an underated 300hp that would rev to 6500 rpm if I remember correctly.
At the time reputedly the fastest 4 door production car in the world, 145MPH !
You probably W'ONT see these Australian blocks or heads in this video.
I have read that the Cleveland block is not as strong as the Windsor. Saw a striker build in a magazine where they went 434 cu. in. and used the Windsor block with Cleveland heads I believe.
Gregory Timmons it was called the Clevor,it's basically a Boss 351
@@donalderdbrink647 A real Boss 351 is basically a standard 351c 4v closed chamber with bigger carb 750 cfm, aluminum intake, adjustable rocker arms, solid cam with bigger cam profile, forged pistons CR 11.00, different damper, bigger oil pan.
I'm not a big Ford fan, but do remember in 1969-71 the Cleveland 351 was a screamer and had power to boot. Great motor also with a 4 bolt main.
351 scj super cobra jet, screamer.
Now they make cleveland blocks with a taller deck for stroking to 400 or more cu in.
love the cleveland
great video explaining Ford engine families. Def going to follow this build.
edelbrock makes heads cam and intakes even duel 4 barrel carb intake for the 351 m making up to 480 horses
LOL
right !!
I had a 351m in a 79 short bed 4x4. I put an edelbrock aluminum intake on it and headers. I still wasn’t happy so I upgraded the cam. With the new cam it was a complete different engine. It really woke that engine up
I had a '73 Mustang Grande with a 351 Cleveland Q Code. I have no idea how they compared with the regular 351 Cleveland but I not it was probably the fastest car I ever owned.
The Q code was what was called a 351 Cobra Jet. You could also get them in the Torino and Ranchero until 1974. It was a performance engine, and actually had a lot more horsepower than the same year 429, and the non-police 460. I believe that in 1973, it was the only 4 barrel 351 you could get. in 71,and 72 , there were more 351 options.
That was a 351 4v CJ! I had one in my 73 Mach 1. My engine builder told me to go find some 2 barrel heads to build for street and put those on the shelf. That car was fast as hell until I totaled it.
@@sabledriver The 351 CJ was 246 hp, not a monster, only 8 in compression ratio. The only fast with that motor was the name.
When my '79 Bronco needed rebuilt I did basically what you are suggesting: 400 crank/rods/flat-top pistons/Cleveland heads/Edelbrock Performer manifold/Carter 4bbl, recurved distributor/headers/Magnaflow exhaust with a crossover/RV cam/slight lift on body. The thing had the four-sp'd trans and I rebuilt the rear-end with 31 spline axles. Wonderful rig with a ton of torque.....that long stroke really made a difference in grunt. Whenever it snowed quite a bit I would go up on the interstate with a couple of log chains and pull guys out of the ditches.....that rig would move anything. They usually expressed their gratitude.....$$$. Don't forget the 332 in the FE series and you might mention that Ford, by putting the 429 into the Mustang, screwed up the exhaust runner in the heads due to the engine having to fit between the shock towers. It makes nearly a complete U-turn....very bad. When I build 460's I ported the exhausts by leading the flow to the top of the port and Devcon-F the lower part of the exhaust in the head.....it's a dead area , anyway and this helped keep the velocity higher in the exhaust and improved scavenging with headers. What I should have done....if I had the money....was go with good aftermarket aluminum heads. I put hours into those damn cast iron heads. I think the DOVE-C heads were the best for the 429/460's. Keep the Faith.
to bad the Australian 351 isn't mentioned they had the better heads becouse the Emission regulation doesn't came that early
The regular 351 Cleveland never had provision for an EGR valve, and this brought production to an end in the U.S. as the EPA and CARB tightened the smog noose.
the 1970 North American 351 Cleveland 4 barrel had the best heads they had the smallest combustion chamber with the large ports and valves. If you want a low RPM engine you may as well use a Windsor engine! For high RPM hp the large ports and valves are the way to go!
Our 351 clevos here in aus had the same heads as the us spec 2v open chamber heads, the closed chamber 2v heads came form our 302 Clevelands which were just a de stroked 351 with 6 inch con rods and closed chamber heads
Thommy the boy actually 2bbl ports and 4bbl combustion chambers is the best combo
Modern aluminum heads are cheaper than Aussie heads
love your video's ! straight up, no profanity, don't dog the parts too much... good guy !
302, 351w, 351c at the end of the day a chevy always emerges in the win in terms of performance and relaibilty
The 351C really was a nice engine. I had one in a '53 F-100 with an FMX and a Lincoln crossflow radiator. Literally purred like a kitten and I'd drive it anywhere, but kids and all came along and I sold it for ~$1,200. I really wasn't up to the bodywork, but it was terrific as a work truck and if it had been today, a perfect rat rod.
The Cleveland borrowed many design cues from the BOSS 429 - HUGE ports and valves - plus, the Cleveland had the highest compression ratio of any Ford High Pereformance engine at 11.4:1 (source Ford 1970 model specs sept. 1969) That 351C became the workhorse of the '70's. It's my favorite Ford engine, with the good old 289 a close 2nd!
460!
I read that ford hired some gm engineers I think from buick or Pontiac and they designed the Cleveland platform and is quite similar to the chevy 427 heads at the time
You are speaking of the Chrysler polyspherical 318. They were produced until 1966 I believe it was. They never used them in a serious high performance application so their potential was never realized.
After that Chevy created the canted valve big blocks-396, 427 and 454.
Bozo1360 Here's one for ya - when I was in my teens and 20's there was a guy who owned a huge auto graveyard - He literally had plies and piles of those "pre-hemis" from the 50's and 60's, AND huge piles of hemi blocks, too. All melted as scrap in the 80's
Could you explain what pre-hemis are? Thanks.
My mom had a 1978 Thunderbird Diamond Jubilee edition with the 351M/400B as the sticker said. It had the factory 2 barrel but yet that heavy car could get up and go. I felt that engine had lots of potential with different intake, carb and headers. The car rode very nice and cornered well. Mom sold it in the late 1980’s.
Where is Windsor Michigan? Can’t find it on any map. I do know where Windsor Ontario since I grew up in nearby Kingsville.
Boss engines came from Cleveland.
Thanks for posting, it's been over 20 years since I heard anything about these motors, your spot on thanks and keep it coming, I have a set of those 69 Cleveland Heads, you can drop an egg through those valves, I also have a 69 351W that's a good motor 30 over!
It's really funny when millennial kids see "351-4V" (4 VENTURI (4 barrel) on older Ford air cleaners and think that the engine has 4 valves per cylinder. LOL.
Not gunna lie, this confused me for awhile. LoL. I'm pretty sure there was a flow difference in the Cleveland 2v vs 4v heads though.
millennial, if it requires work, bet your ass they are not into it. manual transmissions, old hotrods, both require work. Easier to walk around a field looking for fictitious characters with a phone.
Most old school hot rodders don't know the difference between the 2V and 4V in the cleveland and 385 big blocks. The performance level potential is huge between the two.
Many of them wouldn't know what a carburetor is.
I saw a video of some hot rod program where they built a 351 Cleveland and dynoed it with both 4V and 2V head. And, surprisingly, the only difference was a little more torque with the 2V.
Apparently the ports are just too large on the 4V. The goal is airflow, and bigger doesn't mean better for ports.
I had a 400ci in my 1979 Ford F250 truck, which broke an exhaust valve spring, put the cylinder on TDC and used compressed air in the spark plug hole to change out the spring after compressing the valve to take out the keeper. I changed all the valve springs this way with new springs and it ran very well after that! I guess the springs going bad were very common as I also knew other people who had the same problem.
1 thing you didn't mention was that there was 302 cu Cleveland which was available in Australia and New Zealand .
I BELIVE THE "BOSS" 302 HAD CLOSED CHAMBER 351 C HEADS." AMERICAN STYLE".
Thank you! I've never known the differences between these motors. This is very nice! Good job.
Dont forget the 69 & 70 BOSS heads .Very hard to come by .Basically ,Cleveland heads with bigger ports and smaller chambers !
Close but no cigar, real Boss 351 one year only 1971 in -72 they got open chambers, 351c closed chamber heads was cast 1969-1970 but in 1970 vehicles + that the Boss 1971 had same heads with milled pedestals and solid cam.
J G Smith - they were best suited for full race applications that's what they were designed for....
heaps here in aus,or just get 302c heads,.same .
Hi,
Just want you to know that your videos are very informative and helpfull to me: I lecture 'Internal Combustion Engines' to 5. semester mech. engineers here at South Danish University (Denmark) and I must admit that my practically ICE knowledge is not so extensive than yours :-) so many of your comments and input regarding specific design solutions related to for example piston designs & materials, head designs, valve configurations etc. are very helpfull for me to bridge the gab between theory and practice.
If you ever plan to visit Europe you are most welcome here in Svendborg, Denmark!
Br/Mads Willum
New splayed valve Cleveland freak in the making!
The original FE motor available in September 1957 was 332 cid
I appreciate you're honesty. 351w,c,&m. W small block wedge head. C small block canted valve head, open & closed chamber head. M destroked 400 to 351. Done when Cleveland plant shut down to keep up till windsor plant could get up to speed. 351C 2V 4V small port big port respectfully. The oddball 302 Boss, Windsor block cleveand head, water port to intake. Now classes. 302 small block, 351W small block 1 inch taller deck height. 351C/400, 335 family. C same deck as W, 400 1 inch taller Hence the M, 400 destroked to 351. Finally 429/460 385 family. many different heads also. I hope this helps. Fords are hard to absorb as there are so many variations. Thank you for reading, Irie L Bass.
i seem to remember hearing that Ford was infamous for having a bunch of engine designs that did not interchange with each other...this seems to verify that ....
its called advancement,unlike chev that just keep flogging dead horses.
Correct Ford built real race motors you could buy for yourself. Two Hemi's one with OHC, Tunnel Ports, Boss 302's and 351C are out and out race motors tamed for the street. Many more including real truck motors not modified car motors in everything. You do have to know what you are doing though so as not to mix up parts. GM will let you bolt a 455 Olds to a Turbo 350 trans, but it won't last for a week. I guess their idea was to make several car lines and just us interchangeable parts so you ended up with Pontiacs or Buicks with Chevy motors or vice versa.
That is why you will hear the term GM stands for Generic Motors. Ford purpose built heads and engines for specific applications like Chrysler did. Only Chevy really run with the boring one size fits all.
It's not a "Modified" Ford never used this term....ever! The M stands for "Midland" which is the name of a engine casting plant in Ohio.
James Ward
Thanks for the info. I’ve only heard it called ‘modified’ and it would make sense that it would be ‘Midland’ if it was built there
Not a ford guy but I definitely learned alot that I had no idea about great video.👍
351w had strange harmonic vibration issues in marine engines . Did not last very long. 302 smooth.
351C was a great motor.
The 351 didn't have the right harmonic dampener for marine use.
The Windsor is like the "tiny house" phenomenon...it's for people with reduced expectations.LOL ! I once repaired a 72 DeTomaso Pantera that had a 351 Cleveland...it was phenomenal !
This is why I'm a Chevy guy. Big blocks bolt up exactly the same as the small blocks, same mounts, same bell housing. Yeah, some of the older Chevy engines were different, but they're so rare at this point it doesn't matter. Ford did so many different things, changed shit all the time, nothing matches anything else, it's ridiculous. The only thing Ford engines have in common is that you can get an intake for any Ford engine that works with their good ol' motorcraft 2 bbl. They sure loved that simple little carburetor, they put it on everything for about 30 years or so. Honestly I think those carbs are about the only thing I like about Ford, probably because it's the only thing they ever built that was simple! It makes you wonder why they complicated the hell out of everything else they ever built.
Live Wire my thoughts exactly!!!
Because, for a ford guy it isnt complicated at all.
Yeah, for most ford guys that I know, they don't work on their own vehicles anyway. They're always asking me to fix 'em!
Mark Godfrey i would say a engine thats is (as you say) easy to build and produce a lot of power for not a lot of money.... I'd say thats a great design.... You really don't have a clue as to what you're saying.
Live Wire - you don't have to Know shit to work on a Chevy. And all you need is a hammer screwdriver and a pair of plyers. But with Ford you have to have functioning braincells and a little bit of automotive experience. Usually Ford guys know what bell housing is needed for s given engine. And if different motor mounts are needed we know where to find them or how to fabricate them. It's really not a problem for us. You Chevy guys are easily confused. So you need to work on something simple that doesn't require much intelligence. Working on Ford engines has never been difficult for me. My dad was a certified Ford mechanic and I started working on engines when I was 14 years old. V8s in line 6 and 4 , small lawnmower engines etc. And yes even gm junk ass engines. And really I haven't worked on very many v6 engines. Except in a Taurus and a 3.1 gm engine in my 95 olds gutless Cierra. That POS gm junk left me stranded on the interstate and so did my 97 gmc Jimmy that's had the wonderful 4.3 vortec engine... another POS gm pile of junk. The only gm car I ever owned that didn't leave me stranded in the middle of nowhere was my '67 Caprice. That's why I don't own any gm shitboxes. They suck and they will leave you stranded. That's why they put that little blue tow truck button in gm cars and trucks. Because even Chevy knows their junk ass cars suck.
Thank You I'll will definitely be watching. I own a 1977 f150 4x4 with the 351 modified. I'm going over the whole truck I have worked in restoration shop's and I like to keep things as original as possible up to a point where performance is drastically affected. I'm not a motor guy in that I can do what you do. But most everything else on the truck I will do myself. I do want to build this engine however and from what I've learned so far your assessment of the 351 modified is correct. And yes the intake manifold is better suited as a boat anchor. I pulled mine off because I suspected I was losing vacuum. And it wasn't just very old gaskets leaking it was a Friday when they cast the manifold. It was very poor. It had been sucking air from day one through holes and pitting. I didn't have the money to start the whole engine build then and was already invested in rebuilding, overhauling the transmission and transfer case etc. So I did a very careful JB weld repair and it runs way better. The idle is steady, I immediately had to back the idle adjustment down. This engine had been sick all it life. I can't wait to get into it and build whatever configuration will work best. I was leaning towards the edelbrock manifold and 4 barrel carb before I watching this video so now building a true 400 is definitely an option.
When you mention 390 low, medium, or high riser heads/manifolds you really mean 427 FE. A pure race motor with a 4.23 inch bore and a 3.78 inch stroke.
the head to get for the M was the Aussie one with the small intake runners and big valves. Also you can narrow down your mopar slant 6 rod and put in a Cleveland crank with rod and main journal spacers to reduce the parasitic drag on those surfaces. Then you need to have a set of custom hypereutectic pistons made with a short wrist pin height. There was one year (maybe 1974) that had the small bell housing bolt pattern. Also a couple years had tendency to crack in the valley when making big HP so you want to avoid those. Its not too difficult to drill and tap these for 4 bolt main (and I think some of the truck motors had them already). Considering most of the C6's had a fair bit of parasitic losses better power can be delivered to the ground with the C4 (if you can find the one year that will fit the bell housing) or go manual. I believe some of the motor home EOD transmissions will fit the big block bell housing and they can be special built to be pretty decent (but stock they suck)
Years ago I used to have a 351 Cleveland with 4V (stamped on the) Heads; in Australia.
Those intake ports were huge, probably (if not bigger than, then) as big as a BB 454 Chev.
Built right those Cleveland engines were awesome, and in my opinion better than Windsors; although I concede Windsors have a stronger USA aftermarket.
For the street, the 4V heads were too much and you could build a better engine by swapping out the 4V heads for 2v heads, but then most guys didn’t like to do that because it sounded better to say you had Cleveland 4v heads and let everyone see the “4V” stamp on the head’s corner when the hood was pulled.
The Australian Ford GTHO (running a 351 Cleveland with 4V Heads) was the fastest production 4 door sedan in the world there (USA included) for a while there in the 70’s; until (I think) the AMG came along.
In Australia - back then - not much came close to that car and particularly that engine.
I had quite a few friends that had 351/302 Windsors and Clevelands (some of them also drag raced), and by far the stronger and more reliable engines were the Clevelands.
The Winsors would often blow bottom ends and they suffered from volumetric efficiency issues when compared to the breathing (heads) capabilities of the Clevelands.
This - in my opinion - was why/how the Boss engines came about.
it is a smart man to sort out Ford stuff but they are my favorite I subscribed I like your teaching. love your videos
The guy that knows everything is gonna break stuff and hurt people, aint that the truth, i know a couple of these guys lol
No he doesn't because if his "351m" he was gonna build had the right harmonic balancer on it...then it was actually a 400.
As do I sir....as do I. I’m learning as I go. Unfortunately I have those “turd” heads and the “smog” intake. The intake is cheap for an edelbrock performer, but for a set of trickflow heads....yikes
The Windsor engine was not manufactured in Windsor Michigan but rather Windsor Ontario which is located on the other side of the Detroit River in Canada.
The only guy who really knows everything is God. He's the one you can safely run to!
I agree with you 100% on that
Okay Buzz, one question; What started...IT?
What heads was he running on his 351c though....?
Who cares.
Yeah, and he's always there. Just waiting on us.
Great video! Thanks for all the info, it cleared up quite a bit of confusion.
They did make a 4V intake that would fit a 351m 400 engine, it was Available in the 1977 police interceptor. It is real rare
But there are pictures of one on the Cleveland's forever 54 Web sight! If you are planning on building a 351 M engine the best way to improve it is to add the 400 Crank and you have a factory stroker. The advantage of a 400 is the piston deck height is the same as a 351 Cleveland all that needs to be done is Bush the small end of the rod down to .912 ' to match the Cleveland piston pin.
"The advantage of a 400 is the piston deck height is the same as a 351 Cleveland" surely you mean the same as the 351M, since the 351C is an inch lower in deck height than 351M, & 400. I've got an early 400 with an Edelbrock Streetmaster 400 4-Barrel Intake.
just buy a 460..
awesome video man.
very knowledgeable.
thank you taking the time and delivering the video to the masses for budding Ford enthusiasts to see.
There are open chamber and closed chamber 4V Cleveland heads.
The ones in the video are open chamber
he said theyre M heads
Thanks, So Kindly... Your knowledge is greatly appreciated😂
Bolt the big Cleveland head on the 302 don't forget to drill and plug the water jackets ,then get a boss 302 intake and it will bolt right on ,it makes a very mean small block that will eat any Chevy of Mopar,
Micheal Davis All Ford 302 will self destruct it was poorly designed oil lube system that was garrenteed to fail !
Never
I had a set of FORD 351 Windsor heads on my 289, !966 Mustang, the Desirable C9OE 4 Barrel Casting that had Larger Valves the 1.84" Intake Valves Valves and Larger Intake Passages. It added approximately 40 HP over the Stock 289 heads. The Combustion chamber was open unlike the 289, but the added size of the Intake Ports and Valves helped that much.
yea really good heads the gy40 heads are similar
@@Myvintageiron7512 , I forget the years, but there were trucks with GT40 equivalent heads. Everyone in the middle 2000s was looking for them for their 'stangs.
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
im interested 351M. i had a 77 LTD with a 400M and FMX tranny.
460 C6 is what I replaced my 351M with. Easy swap, you can use the same radiator. shorten the drive shaft for the C6, easy and cheap.Use 72 up Torino 429 engine mounts, set the engine in and level it, drill holes for new mounts and do up the bolts.
Super Godzilla ... You have my prayers.
So you had a boat of a car with a built in anchor...
Glad I wasn't the only one that Cringed when He said "Windsor Michigan"
I've never been a Ford guy. They changed SO many things every year it seemed like. I have a 55Chev Sedan Delivery that I bought for my HS graduation in '68 for $600. It was so easy to find parts for. Thanks for explaining a lot of the differences, I've always thought the 351Cleveland was one the best tricks that Ford ever made. Buddies told me that there were a lot of 2 barrel ones in various bodies that were fairly cheap. (way back when) Fords were just as fast as Chevys for the same CI, it just seemed that it took a lot more money to go the same speed. To each his own. They are ALL expensive now. lol Great channel, I am subscribed. Keep it up, you're a virtual fountain of info. I really like how you do pretty much all brands of my age of engines, '55ish - '99ish.
would love a vid on the "obscure" Chevy 400 sbc
They were junk. The bore was too large for the block, the coolant jacket was too narrow between the cylinders so when the engine was working hard the coolant would flash into steam which at best allowed the cylinder to have a hot spot, the rings/cylinder worn out by 90K, at worst the block cracked. Then you bought a 350. Add the crappy metal GM used in their utter confidence that Americas would never would buy a Toyota...
not all small-block Windsors were produced solely at the Ontario plant, but the name stuck with the engine. The 351 Windsor has long been an engine appreciated by enthusiasts for both racing and street cars. In 2006, an enthusiast re-engineered and rebuilt a Windsor 351 to produce 816 horsepower. This was achieved without adding fuel injection, turbo charging or super charging. The name "Windsor" comes from the Ford engine plant in Windsor, Ontario, where the engine was produced between 1962 and 1969, the year in which production was moved to Cleveland, OH. As mentioned earlier, 1969 introduced the 351W engine rated at 250 HP with a 2 barrel and 290 HP with the 4 barrel. The 351W has a taller deck height to increase the stroke. While all 289, 302 and 351 Windsor’s share a 4″ bore, the 351W engine has many changes that set it apart from other Windsor engines. The intake, heads, pushrods, block height, and firing order are just a few of the more notable differences between the 351W and other 4″ bore Windsor engines.