They don't always have to be expensive mods to make them important. The most important first mod on an NA to me would be to disconnect the door buzzer. Man! That thing is obnoxious.
The first, and only, modification I did on my early 2016 ND1 Sport was the Wilwood brakes. That was prompted by the stock rear calipers not playing well with New Hampshire winter salty roads. The Wilwoods have held up well for several seasons, I did all four wheels.
i didn’t notice too much of a difference with my new sways until i got rid of the stock endlinks and got adjustable ones while properly preloading the bar! now the car stays planted while shifting weight quicker! some people also swear by the 5x shifter rebuild kit with the bronze bushing for their first mod! i haven’t done it yet but i’m looking forward to it!
Using rigid end links is transformative of the car. Many people change their bar and their end links at the same time, and think the difference is primarily the consequence of changing the bar. At less than competition speeds, with common after market bars, most of the effect will be felt by changing the end links. This is especially true when both ends of the end link have a tool-steel, spherical joint. The bronze bushing makes a difference, and it costs little. If your shifter bushings are worn, refreshing them makes a big difference.
Replacing the slave cylinder last year on my ‘99, I discovered that the stock front sway bar is actually disconnected from the stock end link on the passenger side, and probably has been since I purchased the car two years ago. The car handles well, but I have no idea how it handles with a fully connected bar, let alone aftermarket bar and links.
When I first got my first "new to me" Miata and had this question, the consensus answer on the Miata forums was "driver upgrade," but in the context of car parts ARB is probably the best answer. Also, thanks for dispelling the common claim that more roll results in more grip. Whenever I hear this from people in my local Miata group, I just send them links to your videos. Keep up the good work!
When a Miata rolls, the outside wheel has more camber. And on a car with the factory alignment, that translates into more grip, especially on a 'touring tire' with a soft side wall. This is not a myth. It is straight forward geometry. The upper control arm is shorter than the lower one. As both go up, the upper control arm pulls the upper portion of the spindle towards the chassis increasing the camber. This said, body roll is distracting in a sweeping turn, and most people find the car easier to control without chassis roll. Where chassis roll is a bad actor, is in a chicane, or series of S turns. The chassis has inertia, takes time to roll and the camber is not available at the entrance to the 2nd and 3rd turn in a series of turns. You are better off without the chassis roll. The best method cancel the roll is open to debate. There are serious suspension designers for our cars who use other methods, unless the car is being used for competition.
@@maneki9neko I'm going to quote directly from Keith's book "How to Build a High Performance Mazda MX-5 Miata", which he emphasized in bold letters. "Weight transfer will cost us total grip." If you want his proof, buy his book.
@@maneki9neko I appears that you misunderstood the "myth" that was dispelled by Keith, so I'll relate it to you briefly. The myth is that if greater roll stiffness increases weight transfer to the outside wheel, therefore no roll stiffness will result in highest cornering force. This myth then leads to some wild claims that running no ARBs with softest spring rates leads to highest cornering forces. If you understand the geometry of the Miata's SLA suspension, then I need not explain further. Indeed there are different methods to control roll stiffness when tuning a suspension, as evidenced by some very fast Miata's that run very stiff racing coilovers without a rear ARB. But the context of this video is best "first modifications" to a Miata, and it was within this context that my original comment was made.
The challenge I have is that I changed the wheels/tires, shocks, and sway bars all at once. Therefore, I have no reference point of how the swaybars (or anti-sway bars), impacted the car (94M). Not that I would do it differently (needed the new shocks to compliment the new wheels, "while I was at it...", etc.), but it would be nice to do each mod one at a time to see the difference. But, Keith, I take your word for it. 🙂
You are 100% correct. We have all done the while I’m in there I’ll change several things. But like you said. Even though it takes much more time. It is always best to change one item only at a time. It is that way that you are able to tune your car and understand what adjustment to what part gives you what kind of improvement. Time consuming yes. But in the end you’ll be a better tuner👍
Keith, totally agree on the sway bars! And, depending on where you plan on adding future modifications for your intended use of the car, maybe do the end links at the same time.
Many people find that changing the end links is more significant than changing the bar. See Killing530's post above. His reaction is common. People typically change both at the same time and think that most of the change was the bar. At less than competition speeds the different is in the links. This is especially true when both ends of the new links have true spherical joints.
I added a set of Vmaxx coilovers to my NB one weekend, then added FM anti-roll bars the following weekend. The ARB's were a much bigger change! I'm not sure I've done anything so effective since. Another great early mod is to add a roll bar with REAL padding. Safety third!
From my understanding, the rear brakes (of the NA and NB at least) don’t do a whole lot anyway. The fact that I’ve been running around with newer pads and rotors up front, and completely shot pads in the rear for over a year leads me to believe this is true.
My first mod I did was I got a smaller girlfriend. Yep ! She weighs less and she eats less, which saves me a lot of money ! Now, my car handles better, gets better mpg. I highly recommend this mod.
honestly i got rid of it completely! there is a lot of cons, but tbh, I've got a lot of more space now to carry stuff and I can definitely tell the difference in the handling of the car without one. i'd recommend you try
Question on adjustability - when setting up - if you started of using the middle hole, what would you expect to feel change if you move it the front or rear hole?
Adjusting the stiffness at one end will affect the handling balance. Adjusting them both the same way will decrease overall roll, but if you go too far you'll start to notice an effect on ride quality. Check out our video on sway bar theory, it covers the how and why.
@@KennyKnoxify Take a closer look at the door cup that fits around the bushing and see if it is damaged. If so, open it up slightly so that the bushings will fit just a little looser.
For an ND2, if I am having a shop (an authorized Miata Parts dealer about an hour from me that my local Miata Club seems to say good things about) install your front and rear sway bars, should I also have them address the coil overs. No other mods except your door bushings and a stubby antena. I am working towards keeping the car playful at slow speeds, but make it less rolly/scary (for me) in high-speed on road switchbacks and as refined as possible (for my wife). I am leaning towards the Fox suspension because of what Keith Tanner said about them being the ‘Ultimate in comfort’ in a previous suspension video (love having the wife with me, and she already complains a bit about the ride height) as well as performance.
The coilovers and sway bars don't need to be done at the same time. The sway bars will help more with body roll, but the Fox suspension will give you loads of adjustability for both comfort and performance. We think you'll be happy with both! Feel free to reach out to our customer support team directly if you have any specific questions or want to hear personal experiences with those parts. Thanks!
Same with the antenna, lol. Something this video does not do a good job of is explaining the difference between the stock swaybars and the aftermarket ones. I'd understand if it came from the factory without swaybars and you were adding aftermarket ones for stiffness. But what do these aftermarket swaybars buy you (other than adjustability) that the stock ones do not?
@@ryanscanlon5928after market sway bars are used to reduce body roll. Because miata's have too much body roll from the factory (set up for comfort from factory).
@@ryanscanlon5928it offers you better handling, the car is easier to rotate with the rear planted and the body roll is less prone to be an issue than the stock one (Aftermarket one are bigger), but i would say that you will improve overall the MX5 but that will not be enough if you want to chase time on track For folks like me with nice B roads with one oe two track sessions for fun per year that make sense to upgrade swaybars only I hope i could helped, english is not my first language
Hey Keith , I did the axle back active exhaust ( aka Hush O Matic ) on my 2016 Club & really happy with that mod. Was it the 1st though ? No ! LED interior & trunk lights was 1st much cheaper than the exhaust or sway bar & you'll notice it immediately at night.
i can second the shock / coilover upgrade on NC's, when i replaced the stock shocks on my brand new NC with a set of good coilovers the difference was incredible. before i changed them it wallowed like a pig
I know this vid is designed for all Miatas, but I'd suggest the very first thing to do with a 1.6 NA (assuming good mechanical condition, etc.) is bump the timing to 14 deg. BTDC. Gives a bit more lower end torque and other than a timing light, is completely free and needs no new parts! Perhaps you could do a series of first three things to do by each generation? Cheers
You hinted that changing the anti-sway bars on an ND is not as easy as on earlier generations. I've heard that before and don't have a lot of tools so would like to have it professionally done. Is that something any suspension mechanic could handle or do I need a Miata or mod specialist? How do I find such a specialist?
The front is a little more difficult on the ND just because there isn't much physical room to easily slide the sway bar out without removing other parts. It can be accomplished with a little time and patience. We do have a step-by-step video if you want to see the process, or give our shop a call, and our team may be able to recommend a shop near you for the install. th-cam.com/video/aEyQQHbZNFo/w-d-xo.html
On all my cars, the first mode I did was a wide andgle inside mirror. Really nice int the miata if you like to drive top down, and any other car that has rear windows. You gain in rear visibility and have less blid spots! Otherwise I'd recommend driving the car for a while before doing any mods, and as the man said, maintenance first! (I do have anti-sway bars on my miata and would recommend the upgrade though!)
Great videos!!! Question: If you just got a ND2 and plan to use it for SCCA Solo Street Category where the Rules state, "Substitution, addition, or removal of a single anti-roll bar and supporting hardware (brackets, endlinks, bushings, etc.) is permitted. The use of any bushing material is permitted. A bushing may be implemented as a bearing.", which sway bar would you change? Front or Rear, and what items do you recommend to replace the stock equipment for this use, while keeping it mostly a daily driver? Again, great videos!!!
Sorry for the late reply! TH-cam thought your question was spam, so it was stuck "in review" till I stumbled across it! If you can only replace one sway bar, most people opt to upgrade their front sway bar - the front sway bar is generally stiffer than the rear (on Miatas), and will do more work to keep the car flatter around corners. It will make the car tend more towards understeer, but that's the compromise you must take if you're beholden to the rulebook. We do offer the front sway bar by itself if you're looking to go this route: flyinmiata.com/products/front-fm-sway-bar-nd You could replace the rear sway bar instead, but that will make the car tend more towards oversteer, which can be less predictable and result in slower lap times - especially for amateur racers.
The MSM has larger bars than a regular NB, but they're not adjustable. That's the biggest thing you'd get with the FM bars, the ability to select your roll stiffness and adjust your handling balance. They can also be set to a stiffer level than the stock bars.
On an NC2, that was probably the right choice. Sway bars will help eliminate some of that sloppy weight transfer to really tighten up the handling and give you a more precise feel.
Efficiency could go a lot of different ways. Lightweight parts and adding better aerodynamics are a good start. Now, are the added parts affecting the aesthetics you're after and can the car function in all the environments you subject it to? There is a lot to consider and everyone is going to have their preferred setup and willingness to give up X to achieve Y. If your focus is fuel mileage, all vehicles take a big hit the faster you push them through the air so, 45 mph is more efficient than 65 mph.
Best first mod? Restore the car to it's former glory, because as we all know - previous owner likely wouldn't sell it if he knew it was any good. Keep it stock/reversible/obvious improvement mods if you want to get any of this money back. Advise for someone who wants to track it - monitor engine temps/health with accurate tools. I did and it saved my engine and my brown rad on my second track day when it got hot when I had to keep 50/50 hot/cooldown lap ratio to keep it in reasonable temps. Also get good alignment and tires that would not go almost completely bust after 2 track days like my all seasons did. Almost all of my outer side tread gone while center got barely touched.
To summarize : stiffer sway bars will reduce body roll, but also reduce the playfulness of the car (the ability to easily "drift" in the turns) at low and average speeds ? Is that correct ? Thank you.
I purchased a brand new 2023 Miata Club over the summer. While I love the handling, especially on twisty mountain roads, I've found myself slightly terrified to push the car to the limits of its grip, depending on the circumstances. Compared to say an e46 M3, which from my experience transitions very smoothly & linearly into a drift when pushed; I've found myself startled by the Miata letting go in a less predictable & twitchy manner. At low speeds in a parking lot, on wet leaves, grass, or snow it's totally predictable & controllable in all the right ways. At slightly higher speeds on a damp road though, I've been quite startled by the initial physics of reaching that limit. When you have room to play, once it lets go, you can then gain control over the drift, but that initial transition is too startling for most circumstances. Would sway bars help with this, or is there other suspension work that would need to be done as well to change this type of feeling & handing characteristics at the limits of traction?
I'm a 'yet to be Miata' owner. Being that the NA and NB cars are now 20+ years old would replacing the struts likely be in the "fix what's broken" job category?
Want to feel old? The NAs can be 35 years old by this point :) Stock shocks are almost definitely in need of replacement by this point. They only lasted about 30k miles when new.
Compared to the other generations, there is much less room on the ND to slide the bar out from the front of the car, but it is possible with a little patience. (We have a step-by-step video if you need help!) The LSD priority would really come down to how you drive the car. If you drive hard, competitively or just want the feel of an LSD, then move it up your list. If you just weekend drive the car or daily the car, you might not notice much of a difference if you aren't pushing the car on a regular basis.
I have two questions: On a car like this, why the heck would Mazda choose to put in such wimpy sway bars? At what point (on an ND) is it necessary to add a reinforcement kit to where the ends of the SB meet the frame? Is it determined by the thickness/stiffness of the bar, or the intended use (street, track etc)?
This video should sum it up for you pretty well th-cam.com/video/4HOyAmy6Kj8/w-d-xo.html. If not, we don't think you'll need the reinforcement kit unless you're running really sticky tires, have stock suspension, have an upgraded sway bar, and do a number of track events.
Heres the thing, if its an ND, should i buy and pay for sway bar replacements or do i buy the Karcepts kit and fit it myself? Both options will probably cost the same, so whats the better choice?
The Karcepts kit does look pretty simple to install, which is a pretty sweet plus! That said, our sway bars come with full, detailed written and video instructions and is doable for someone with basic wrenching skills and some patience.
This may be getting into advanced topics here, but what is the relationship between sway bar stiffness and suspension dampers/springs? I see a lot of folks in various places recommending stock sway bars if you're going to run Ohlins (am I correct in assuming FOX for NA/NB is similar?) and could you explain why this is?
The dampers aren't the important thing here, the spring rates are. You get some of your roll stiffness from springs and some from sway bars. If you install stiffer springs and you don't want to increase roll stiffness, too much, you can use stock bars. But you lose the ability to fine-tune handling balance by adjusting bars, and sometimes the ideal balance is found with a fairly soft bar at one end and (usually) a higher spring rate at that end as well. It depends on what you're trying to accomplish - tire choice and alignment and even power level comes into the equation when you're really dialing things in. But generally speaking, we recommend a sway bar upgrade with our Fox suspension and have done the same when we have been benchmarking Ohlins.
Is the impact of adding ARBs similar for the Fiat 124 Spider? I'm impressed of the adjustable Whitelines in my NC3. Just asking for my dad's 124 Spider, already have adjustable coilovers installed and lighter OZ wheels.
The 124 shares so much with the ND, we're sure you'd notice a big difference with some quality sway bars! flyinmiata.com/products/nd-flyin-miata-sway-bars
Keith...I have a 2009 PRHT GS...it appears to have Bilestein dampers...judging by the yellow.. does it have a heavier front sway bar. I can't find a specs listing on this model here in PEI>
Hello, could you help me find the exact size and how to remove the rear sway bar bolts? The previous owner made a poor repair, and I want to see how to remove part of the cut bolt and replace the bolts correctly.
The bolts that attach the brackets to the subframe? They're a stud, an 8x1.25 if memory serves. It's not uncommon to break one off when installing a sway bar if you get too excited. The solution is to knock or drill the stud out and replace it with a nut and bolt.
@@FlyinMiataVideo Yes, they are the bolts that go to the subframe. I couldn't find the type of bolt and its size in any manual, only the nut's part number
Since sway bars don't typically advertise their "spring rate" (capability for lack of better word) how do we know which ones to buy. Do the ebay $60 dollar ones do the same of the $200+ dollar FM or Boss etc? 🤷🏽♂️ we don't know. You get what you pay for is always a sales tactic. Genuine question here.
We don’t usually publish the rates of our bars because people tend to misinterpret them - it’s not unusual for an aftermarket bar to have twice the rate of factory, and that’s often taken a “too stiff”. Sway bars are only a portion of the total roll stiffness, so they need big changes to have an effect. But if you want to know the specific numbers, contact our customer service team. What you’re buying from a name brand is support, metallurgy and accurate geometry. It’s easy to match the rough dimensions. It’s harder to make sure the steel is correct and the dimensions are truly accurate. The $60 ones might be okay, but it’s a risk.
Not unless you are significantly changing the ride height or plan to corner balance the car. That's when the adjustable end links really come in handy!
Up on the Angeles Crest Highway yesterday I was watching an ND Miata take a long sweeping turn at speed. The car had very considerable body roll. This seems to have been a design decision at Mazda. In stock condition all of our cars do this. This car is simply easier to control if some of this body roll is canceled. Roll is especially problematic in a set of slalom turns. On this there is pretty general agreement in the Miata community. However, this is where the consensus stops. There are various ways to make a Miata take a corner with less body roll. Some of these methods work well on 'real roads' with pot holes and frost heaves, and others do not. Installing a stout front bar on a car with stock springs does, as you say 'transform' the car. This said, changing the bar, and only the bar, can make the car quirky on rough pavement. The combination of stiff bar, and soft, stock springs, while it cancels roll, also cancels the independent motion of the wheels on that axle. Up on the Angeles Crest, in the warmer months, we have a car over the side about once a week. A lot of these are owner modified cars with race rubber, coil-overs, and owner specified suspension treatments. Recently Mountain Rescue went down a ravine to extract one car, and found another, previously unknown to them with the driver still in the car, still alive. He had been there for two days. The combination of stiff front bar, and soft stock springs, can, in a sweeping turn taken at speed, badly unsettle the car when the inside wheel drops into a pot hole and the sway bar pressure on the outside wheel is suddenly released. A major change in only one suspension component, without corresponding changes in the others, can make the car unpredictable, and difficult to manage on any but the flattest of roads. The Angeles Crest Highway, and the other 'Miata' roads here in Southern California, like Stunt Road in Malibu (yes, that's its real name), and the portion of Mulholland Highway known as the "Snake' are wonderful. They are not, however, flat. They are real roads with real potholes. With real roads you need true independence of motion on all four wheels. By controlling chassis lean with springs, dampers, tire side wall stiffness, and tire pressures, rather than with sway bars, you preserve that independence. A local suspension designer at 949 Racing who is certainly known to you is Emilio Cervantes. He is the founder of 949, and has engineered many of the SuperMiata series of cars. Cervantes writes about 949's series of coil overs: "We recommend using stock sway bars with Xida XL, GS, and Ace." That master of 20th century suspension design, Colin Chapman, from whom the Miata's Power Plant Frame derives, used soft sway bars too. Chapman wrote, in period: "On current racing cars anti-roll bars are needed to obtain the required handling characteristics, but are not necessarily an essential feature of suspension design." Ref: lotuselan.net/wiki/Colin_Chapman:_One_Man_Band_of_the_Racing_Circus Before you replace the front sway bar, an important question to ask yourself is whether or not you are using the stock sway bars at full capacity. The factory end links are soft. By changing to rigid sway bar end links (Heim jointed end links at both ends) the 'wind up' in the links is eliminated, and the bar engages much faster. Completely rigid end links cause the effect of the stock bar to be felt instantly on entering the corner. A much sharper 'turn in' is achieved using the stock bar. This effect is transformative of the car. If the car has too much chassis roll for your taste, the first parts to change are the end links. That can be done in a matter of minutes, costs little, and is a meaningful improvement, both to chassis roll but also to the stability of the car in a long sweeping turn. The speed at which the suspension reacts to the alternating lateral forces in a slalom or chicane is meaningfully increased. Regrettably the Flyin Miata end link for the NA Miata retains a rubber bushing, on the lower end, from the factory design. Other vendors supply an end link for the NA that has tool-steel, spherical joints at both ends. To eliminate wind up in the end links, real spherical joints (Heim joints) are necessary. Bushings do not get you there. The sway bar bushings that secure the sway bar to the chassis need be changed as well, either to urethane or a stiffer rubber compound.
Stiff bar/soft spring vs soft bar/stiff spring is a matter of preference - there are a number of different schools of thought on it. We prefer a middle of the road approach - don't put a massive 1.25" Racing Beat bar on your car car with stock springs, and don't run 750 lb springs with no bar. Going with a reasonable increase in size can have some real benefits but without much of a downside or introducing poor handling characteristics on rough roads. We do our testing on "real" roads as well, they can easily be found outside California. We also recommend changing out both front and rear bars instead of just the front unless you are making other changes to modify the balance of the car - and this video was about a single modification, not a whole pile of them. Only NA factory end links have any rubber in them, so changing out NB-NC/ND end links will not do anything to change the effective sway bar stiffness or how quickly it responds. In our experience, all rod ends have a short service life in an end link no matter how well specified they are, which is why we don't offer them and we choose to retain a bushing in the lower part of the NA end link.
Would stiffer sway bars affect how much dynamic negative camber you get in a same speed/turn corner? Since the suspension wont roll as much? Keith Tanner Fan
This actually gets interesting if you look at camber relative to the road or relative to the chassis. You'll get less camber gain relative to the chassis, but less camber loss relative to the road surface.
@Brockthedog315 You don't need to change your shocks to install new sway bars. However, we have found that NC shocks do not last very long, so if you have more than 60,000 miles on them, it's likely time to have them replaced, too.
Hi there. What do you think of installing only rear ARB on a ND 1.5 with Koni Sport (adjustable damping and height) / Eibach springs and 16'' wheels + bracing? I heard that on bumpy, slippery roads (as usual in Greece) having a thicker than stock front ARB there is a degree of understeer induced. Thanks in advance.
Adding just a rear bar will add oversteer. Adding just a front bar will add understeer. It's not due to bumpy roads, it's due to the way the weight transfer changes. We did another video on the theory of sway bars you might enjoy.
The only real reason to upgrade to adjustable end links would be if you have changed the car's ride height significantly, or if you want to corner balance the car. No need for them if you are at or near stock ride height on a street car.
@@FlyinMiataVideo Perfect, thanks for the reply my FM bars are being delivered today! I'm on stock suspension and really don't plan on changing anything currently. I got a new set of Conti's the other week so I'm good to go :) Thanks for all the great content as always.
Ultimately, yes: The 2006-2008 "NC1" Miatas are still great, reliable cars. Our main best guesses for the lower prices are: 1. They're simply older cars 2. The aesthetics aren't as popular as the later versions 3. The engines on all NC1 Miatas didn't come with forged internals, which means a lower red line and potentially slightly less reliable if you're planning on throwing gobs of boost at it (although, if you keep this conservative, even the NC1 engines should be fine.) If you see an NC1 for a good price and in otherwise good shape, I say go for it.
Thanks. I’m kind of cross shopping the NC1 and an NB. NB is really fun. I am in the minority but think I like the front fascia of the NC1 over the NC2-but it’s splitting hairs. Both are great. The Miata really is a car where there isn’t a bad looking one. I’m hoping as we enter September I may find a great deal. Thanks so much for your input.
@@treeskier802 You are welcome! Beauty is in the eye of the beholder - if you don't mind the looks of the NC1s, you'll likely have an easier time finding a deal on an NC than an NB.
I have the Koni stage 1.5 installed on my NA (which was my priority because the shocks were blown). I did not install sway bars because my tires (hankook ventus v2) are not great, and I was under the impression that decreasing body roll would put more strain on the tires. Is that incorrect?
My dad passed me his 1990 Miata so he could buy his 2015 Miata. It's basically stock so I may consider adding a sway bar. I only drive around town though, so is doing this a bit of overkill?
@@FlyinMiataVideo Thanks for the reply! My dad took really good care of the car and it only has 65 or 70,000 mi on it so I want to make sure I'm treating it right while it's my responsibility!
@@MattJones-uv3hw The good news is that if you do change out the sway bars and decide for some reason that they're not for you, the modification is fully reversible.
Check out Keith's sway bar theory video, he covers instances where removing the rear sway bar has benefits. He doesn't run a rear sway on his personal racecar.
We'd still suggest new shocks, preferably Koni Sports, and then move on to sway bars. If you want to lower the car slightly, that'd be our Koni Stage 2 kit with FM springs.
@@FlyinMiataVideo kind of academic question, I don't have one - my 2020 works great with your sways, frame reinforcement, and billet clamps. Seems if I remember correctly if you turn off traction control- KPC turns off too. Then you would really be glad you had those FM sways. Just wondered what your experience was showing. Thanks for the reply!
I feel like sway bars are first (no matter the generation) and maybe some adjustable end links and other suspension stuff. Also probably change the tires at the same time or before you change the sway bars. Then whatever is broken and maybe some mods that increase the longevity (like an oil catch can) once it's all maintained and good you can start beefing the engine and stuff if you want to and/or do cosmetic mods.
All NDs come from the factory with sway bars on the rear. If you increase the size of that rear bar and do nothing else, it will make the car oversteer more. We recommend a balanced front/rear set of bars unless you're trying to achieve a specific handling change.
My 2008 NC only had 21000 miles on it, so the first thing I did was replace the original tires. Then supercharged, header back exhaust, big brakes, suspension, etc. Thanks, FM, for fueling my carcaine addiction 😂
My first mod on my '''23 miata was the removal of the horrid Bridgestone tires (this reduced the noise inside cabin tremendously). Also michellin S5 are the best.
@@FlyinMiataVideo totally different things, for sure. But balance wise, it’s huge. I had a epiphany at an autocross 10+ years ago, instigated by a fellow miata competitor. I had a good suspension, corner balanced and aligned. But was fighting oversteer. Noticed my friend had massive understeer and was 2 seconds faster. He said disconnect the rear bar, then did that for me lol. Life changing. We matched times and then drove each others cars. Now for mixed use driving my rear bar is connected, but full loose. Front on medium. Best use of my car, way better than before
@@violinmiata The nature of autocross is fairly violent transitions (especially on corner entry) and traction management problems coming off corners due to the low speeds and low gearing. It works better if you maximize rear traction at the cost of front, as you can use those transitions to rotate the car. Street and track use usually rewards a more balanced setup where you have more available traction to initiate a turn and are then able to work all four equally and balance on the throttle with less concern about putting down power. As you move into more powerful cars, you have to start emphasizing that rear traction a bit more - we'll set up a 500 hp V8 a little differently for track use than a 116 hp 1.6 to give the back end a fighting chance. As a bonus, setting the car up to rotate more makes it more playful and more fun. This sort of fine tuning is why adjustable sway bars are such a useful tuning tool.
Apple CarPlay (assuming ND), Sound tube delete (assuming ND), LED Interior cabin / trunk lights, Delrin door bushings, Axle back exhaust, Spider Grille (assuming ND), Hard dog roll bar (not sway bar).
I totally agree on "fix what's broken." Every time some kid picks up their first NA or NB I tell them "catch up on the maintenance first."
100%!
My first mod was stubby antenna. 2nd was carplay for my ND1
They don't always have to be expensive mods to make them important. The most important first mod on an NA to me would be to disconnect the door buzzer. Man! That thing is obnoxious.
Less wind drag huh?
haha I ordered my stubby while i was waiting on my ND3's detail to finish the day I bought it at the dealership
The first, and only, modification I did on my early 2016 ND1 Sport was the Wilwood brakes. That was prompted by the stock rear calipers not playing well with New Hampshire winter salty roads. The Wilwoods have held up well for several seasons, I did all four wheels.
i didn’t notice too much of a difference with my new sways until i got rid of the stock endlinks and got adjustable ones while properly preloading the bar! now the car stays planted while shifting weight quicker!
some people also swear by the 5x shifter rebuild kit with the bronze bushing for their first mod! i haven’t done it yet but i’m looking forward to it!
Using rigid end links is transformative of the car. Many people change their bar and their end links at the same time, and think the difference is primarily the consequence of changing the bar. At less than competition speeds, with common after market bars, most of the effect will be felt by changing the end links. This is especially true when both ends of the end link have a tool-steel, spherical joint.
The bronze bushing makes a difference, and it costs little. If your shifter bushings are worn, refreshing them makes a big difference.
Replacing the slave cylinder last year on my ‘99, I discovered that the stock front sway bar is actually disconnected from the stock end link on the passenger side, and probably has been since I purchased the car two years ago. The car handles well, but I have no idea how it handles with a fully connected bar, let alone aftermarket bar and links.
I’ve heard the ND is kinda unstable in how much it rolls. Nice to hear there’s an easy fix.
When I first got my first "new to me" Miata and had this question, the consensus answer on the Miata forums was "driver upgrade," but in the context of car parts ARB is probably the best answer. Also, thanks for dispelling the common claim that more roll results in more grip. Whenever I hear this from people in my local Miata group, I just send them links to your videos. Keep up the good work!
When a Miata rolls, the outside wheel has more camber. And on a car with the factory alignment, that translates into more grip, especially on a 'touring tire' with a soft side wall. This is not a myth. It is straight forward geometry. The upper control arm is shorter than the lower one. As both go up, the upper control arm pulls the upper portion of the spindle towards the chassis increasing the camber. This said, body roll is distracting in a sweeping turn, and most people find the car easier to control without chassis roll. Where chassis roll is a bad actor, is in a chicane, or series of S turns. The chassis has inertia, takes time to roll and the camber is not available at the entrance to the 2nd and 3rd turn in a series of turns. You are better off without the chassis roll. The best method cancel the roll is open to debate. There are serious suspension designers for our cars who use other methods, unless the car is being used for competition.
@@maneki9neko I'm going to quote directly from Keith's book "How to Build a High Performance Mazda MX-5 Miata", which he emphasized in bold letters.
"Weight transfer will cost us total grip."
If you want his proof, buy his book.
@@maneki9neko I appears that you misunderstood the "myth" that was dispelled by Keith, so I'll relate it to you briefly. The myth is that if greater roll stiffness increases weight transfer to the outside wheel, therefore no roll stiffness will result in highest cornering force. This myth then leads to some wild claims that running no ARBs with softest spring rates leads to highest cornering forces. If you understand the geometry of the Miata's SLA suspension, then I need not explain further.
Indeed there are different methods to control roll stiffness when tuning a suspension, as evidenced by some very fast Miata's that run very stiff racing coilovers without a rear ARB. But the context of this video is best "first modifications" to a Miata, and it was within this context that my original comment was made.
I LOVE the captain's hat on the NC.
Courtesy of Mike Usrey ;)
First thing I did was indeed the sway bars. Then some lowering.
Cheap mods and it's a very nice road car now.
The challenge I have is that I changed the wheels/tires, shocks, and sway bars all at once. Therefore, I have no reference point of how the swaybars (or anti-sway bars), impacted the car (94M). Not that I would do it differently (needed the new shocks to compliment the new wheels, "while I was at it...", etc.), but it would be nice to do each mod one at a time to see the difference. But, Keith, I take your word for it. 🙂
You are 100% correct. We have all done the while I’m in there I’ll change several things. But like you said. Even though it takes much more time. It is always best to change one item only at a time. It is that way that you are able to tune your car and understand what adjustment to what part gives you what kind of improvement. Time consuming yes. But in the end you’ll be a better tuner👍
Same project !
Keith, totally agree on the sway bars! And, depending on where you plan on adding future modifications for your intended use of the car, maybe do the end links at the same time.
Many people find that changing the end links is more significant than changing the bar. See Killing530's post above. His reaction is common. People typically change both at the same time and think that most of the change was the bar. At less than competition speeds the different is in the links. This is especially true when both ends of the new links have true spherical joints.
Thanks v much, you’re right, that wasn’t what I was thinking. But it is now.
I added a set of Vmaxx coilovers to my NB one weekend, then added FM anti-roll bars the following weekend. The ARB's were a much bigger change! I'm not sure I've done anything so effective since. Another great early mod is to add a roll bar with REAL padding. Safety third!
Sway bars are really one of the best bang-for-your-buck mods you can make! Good suggestion on the roll bar!
Door bushings first thing I did--cravenspeed.
Nice! It's one of the most simple yet effective mods you can do!
+1 on FM's advice! I asked them directly last year when I was looking to modify my 21 GT RF. The sway bars literally transformed the car!
Glad we could help, hope you are still enjoying the car!
@@FlyinMiataVideo Absolutely! Next up is tires for the Kogekis!
Which away bars did you go with?
@@stevechoi1134 The FM bars front and rear.
Swaybars, for the nb/na a brake proportion valve and pads. Getting the miata to rotate underbraking is magical.
From my understanding, the rear brakes (of the NA and NB at least) don’t do a whole lot anyway. The fact that I’ve been running around with newer pads and rotors up front, and completely shot pads in the rear for over a year leads me to believe this is true.
My first mod I did was I got a smaller girlfriend. Yep ! She weighs less and she eats less, which saves me a lot of money ! Now, my car handles better, gets better mpg. I highly recommend this mod.
😂
Very brave!
honestly i got rid of it completely! there is a lot of cons, but tbh, I've got a lot of more space now to carry stuff and I can definitely tell the difference in the handling of the car without one. i'd recommend you try
Girls don’t like men that drive Miata’s. Get a Mercedes. 😂
Lol weight reduction
Question on adjustability - when setting up - if you started of using the middle hole, what would you expect to feel change if you move it the front or rear hole?
Adjusting the stiffness at one end will affect the handling balance. Adjusting them both the same way will decrease overall roll, but if you go too far you'll start to notice an effect on ride quality. Check out our video on sway bar theory, it covers the how and why.
An even cheaper first mod is the door bushings.
We're a big fan of door bushings too!
I just got a second Miata and put delrin bushings in, but now my driver door does not want to close unless you slam it hard
@@KennyKnoxify re-adjust them…
@@KennyKnoxify Take a closer look at the door cup that fits around the bushing and see if it is damaged. If so, open it up slightly so that the bushings will fit just a little looser.
does that really make a difference??
For an ND2, if I am having a shop (an authorized Miata Parts dealer about an hour from me that my local Miata Club seems to say good things about) install your front and rear sway bars, should I also have them address the coil overs. No other mods except your door bushings and a stubby antena.
I am working towards keeping the car playful at slow speeds, but make it less rolly/scary (for me) in high-speed on road switchbacks and as refined as possible (for my wife). I am leaning towards the Fox suspension because of what Keith Tanner said about them being the ‘Ultimate in comfort’ in a previous suspension video (love having the wife with me, and she already complains a bit about the ride height) as well as performance.
The coilovers and sway bars don't need to be done at the same time. The sway bars will help more with body roll, but the Fox suspension will give you loads of adjustability for both comfort and performance. We think you'll be happy with both! Feel free to reach out to our customer support team directly if you have any specific questions or want to hear personal experiences with those parts. Thanks!
Love the captain hat on the yacht, btw.
Mike has gone all in on his NC ownership!
My first mod on my ND2 was replacing antenna. But, last week I finally had my FM sway bars installed. 😂
Same with the antenna, lol. Something this video does not do a good job of is explaining the difference between the stock swaybars and the aftermarket ones. I'd understand if it came from the factory without swaybars and you were adding aftermarket ones for stiffness. But what do these aftermarket swaybars buy you (other than adjustability) that the stock ones do not?
@@ryanscanlon5928after market sway bars are used to reduce body roll. Because miata's have too much body roll from the factory (set up for comfort from factory).
@@ryanscanlon5928it offers you better handling, the car is easier to rotate with the rear planted and the body roll is less prone to be an issue than the stock one (Aftermarket one are bigger), but i would say that you will improve overall the MX5 but that will not be enough if you want to chase time on track
For folks like me with nice B roads with one oe two track sessions for fun per year that make sense to upgrade swaybars only
I hope i could helped, english is not my first language
Thanks team and Keith, is there a video on the NC1 & 2 dampers?
We've got an NC Koni suspension install video. Let us know what else you'd like to see, we'll try to put it on our list!
Hey Keith , I did the axle back active exhaust ( aka Hush O Matic ) on my 2016 Club & really happy with that mod. Was it the 1st though ? No ! LED interior & trunk lights was 1st much cheaper than the exhaust or sway bar & you'll notice it immediately at night.
All good parts! In the end it really comes down to personal preference, so there really isn't a wrong answer :)
i can second the shock / coilover upgrade on NC's, when i replaced the stock shocks on my brand new NC with a set of good coilovers the difference was incredible. before i changed them it wallowed like a pig
The NC is a great car, but that factory suspension on the early NC's was definitely unfortunate!
@@FlyinMiataVideo 100%
I know this vid is designed for all Miatas, but I'd suggest the very first thing to do with a 1.6 NA (assuming good mechanical condition, etc.) is bump the timing to 14 deg. BTDC. Gives a bit more lower end torque and other than a timing light, is completely free and needs no new parts! Perhaps you could do a series of first three things to do by each generation? Cheers
You hinted that changing the anti-sway bars on an ND is not as easy as on earlier generations. I've heard that before and don't have a lot of tools so would like to have it professionally done. Is that something any suspension mechanic could handle or do I need a Miata or mod specialist? How do I find such a specialist?
Most mechanics can do it. They have a video installing them if you're interested
@@The0Advent ok awesome. Thank you!
The front is a little more difficult on the ND just because there isn't much physical room to easily slide the sway bar out without removing other parts. It can be accomplished with a little time and patience. We do have a step-by-step video if you want to see the process, or give our shop a call, and our team may be able to recommend a shop near you for the install.
th-cam.com/video/aEyQQHbZNFo/w-d-xo.html
You said that the NC1 and NC2 has bad shocks, does that include the ones with the suspension package?
Yes. The bilsteins are a quality shock but badly tuned in this application.
On all my cars, the first mode I did was a wide andgle inside mirror.
Really nice int the miata if you like to drive top down, and any other car that has rear windows.
You gain in rear visibility and have less blid spots!
Otherwise I'd recommend driving the car for a while before doing any mods, and as the man said, maintenance first!
(I do have anti-sway bars on my miata and would recommend the upgrade though!)
Thanks for watching!
Great videos!!! Question: If you just got a ND2 and plan to use it for SCCA Solo Street Category where the Rules state, "Substitution, addition, or removal of a single anti-roll bar and supporting hardware (brackets, endlinks, bushings, etc.) is permitted. The use of any bushing material is permitted. A bushing may be implemented as a bearing.", which sway bar would you change? Front or Rear, and what items do you recommend to replace the stock equipment for this use, while keeping it mostly a daily driver? Again, great videos!!!
Sorry for the late reply! TH-cam thought your question was spam, so it was stuck "in review" till I stumbled across it!
If you can only replace one sway bar, most people opt to upgrade their front sway bar - the front sway bar is generally stiffer than the rear (on Miatas), and will do more work to keep the car flatter around corners. It will make the car tend more towards understeer, but that's the compromise you must take if you're beholden to the rulebook.
We do offer the front sway bar by itself if you're looking to go this route: flyinmiata.com/products/front-fm-sway-bar-nd
You could replace the rear sway bar instead, but that will make the car tend more towards oversteer, which can be less predictable and result in slower lap times - especially for amateur racers.
What's the difference in benefit the FM sway bars bring to a MSM compared to a regular NB?
The MSM has larger bars than a regular NB, but they're not adjustable. That's the biggest thing you'd get with the FM bars, the ability to select your roll stiffness and adjust your handling balance. They can also be set to a stiffer level than the stock bars.
I went with "coil overs" on my NC2 first. Would sway bars make a big difference?
On an NC2, that was probably the right choice. Sway bars will help eliminate some of that sloppy weight transfer to really tighten up the handling and give you a more precise feel.
@@FlyinMiataVideo Thanks for the response. Guess I'll be ordering a set shortly.
Does your advice about the NC 1&2 needing shocks first also apply to the NC2 with suspension package?
I asked the same question…guess I should have checked the comments first 😊
anyway to improve the efficiency? should get more for being lightweight, close to the ground and a small engine.
Efficiency could go a lot of different ways. Lightweight parts and adding better aerodynamics are a good start. Now, are the added parts affecting the aesthetics you're after and can the car function in all the environments you subject it to? There is a lot to consider and everyone is going to have their preferred setup and willingness to give up X to achieve Y. If your focus is fuel mileage, all vehicles take a big hit the faster you push them through the air so, 45 mph is more efficient than 65 mph.
You are absolutely correct!
We're glad you approve! :D
Best first mod? Restore the car to it's former glory, because as we all know - previous owner likely wouldn't sell it if he knew it was any good. Keep it stock/reversible/obvious improvement mods if you want to get any of this money back.
Advise for someone who wants to track it - monitor engine temps/health with accurate tools. I did and it saved my engine and my brown rad on my second track day when it got hot when I had to keep 50/50 hot/cooldown lap ratio to keep it in reasonable temps. Also get good alignment and tires that would not go almost completely bust after 2 track days like my all seasons did. Almost all of my outer side tread gone while center got barely touched.
With early nd2 or nd, the first mod I did was to add carplay. If it doesn’t come with it, it is a big improvement. Wasn’t too difficult or expensive.
How do stiffer anti roll bars affect how KPC works on the new NDs? Great content by the way!
The effect of KPC will likely be a bit smaller as there's less body movement to start with, but it will still have an effect.
To summarize : stiffer sway bars will reduce body roll, but also reduce the playfulness of the car (the ability to easily "drift" in the turns) at low and average speeds ? Is that correct ? Thank you.
That’s not our experience. The car is probably more playful with the bars as it’s more responsive.
I purchased a brand new 2023 Miata Club over the summer. While I love the handling, especially on twisty mountain roads, I've found myself slightly terrified to push the car to the limits of its grip, depending on the circumstances. Compared to say an e46 M3, which from my experience transitions very smoothly & linearly into a drift when pushed; I've found myself startled by the Miata letting go in a less predictable & twitchy manner. At low speeds in a parking lot, on wet leaves, grass, or snow it's totally predictable & controllable in all the right ways. At slightly higher speeds on a damp road though, I've been quite startled by the initial physics of reaching that limit. When you have room to play, once it lets go, you can then gain control over the drift, but that initial transition is too startling for most circumstances. Would sway bars help with this, or is there other suspension work that would need to be done as well to change this type of feeling & handing characteristics at the limits of traction?
I'm a 'yet to be Miata' owner. Being that the NA and NB cars are now 20+ years old would replacing the struts likely be in the "fix what's broken" job category?
Want to feel old? The NAs can be 35 years old by this point :)
Stock shocks are almost definitely in need of replacement by this point. They only lasted about 30k miles when new.
@@FlyinMiataVideo Now I feel really old! :)
What makes this modification more difficult on the ND?
Where on your list would changing to LSD be?
Compared to the other generations, there is much less room on the ND to slide the bar out from the front of the car, but it is possible with a little patience. (We have a step-by-step video if you need help!) The LSD priority would really come down to how you drive the car. If you drive hard, competitively or just want the feel of an LSD, then move it up your list. If you just weekend drive the car or daily the car, you might not notice much of a difference if you aren't pushing the car on a regular basis.
I have two questions:
On a car like this, why the heck would Mazda choose to put in such wimpy sway bars?
At what point (on an ND) is it necessary to add a reinforcement kit to where the ends of the SB meet the frame? Is it determined by the thickness/stiffness of the bar, or the intended use (street, track etc)?
This video should sum it up for you pretty well th-cam.com/video/4HOyAmy6Kj8/w-d-xo.html. If not, we don't think you'll need the reinforcement kit unless you're running really sticky tires, have stock suspension, have an upgraded sway bar, and do a number of track events.
Heres the thing, if its an ND, should i buy and pay for sway bar replacements or do i buy the Karcepts kit and fit it myself?
Both options will probably cost the same, so whats the better choice?
The Karcepts kit does look pretty simple to install, which is a pretty sweet plus!
That said, our sway bars come with full, detailed written and video instructions and is doable for someone with basic wrenching skills and some patience.
This may be getting into advanced topics here, but what is the relationship between sway bar stiffness and suspension dampers/springs? I see a lot of folks in various places recommending stock sway bars if you're going to run Ohlins (am I correct in assuming FOX for NA/NB is similar?) and could you explain why this is?
The dampers aren't the important thing here, the spring rates are. You get some of your roll stiffness from springs and some from sway bars. If you install stiffer springs and you don't want to increase roll stiffness, too much, you can use stock bars. But you lose the ability to fine-tune handling balance by adjusting bars, and sometimes the ideal balance is found with a fairly soft bar at one end and (usually) a higher spring rate at that end as well. It depends on what you're trying to accomplish - tire choice and alignment and even power level comes into the equation when you're really dialing things in.
But generally speaking, we recommend a sway bar upgrade with our Fox suspension and have done the same when we have been benchmarking Ohlins.
Is the impact of adding ARBs similar for the Fiat 124 Spider? I'm impressed of the adjustable Whitelines in my NC3. Just asking for my dad's 124 Spider, already have adjustable coilovers installed and lighter OZ wheels.
The 124 shares so much with the ND, we're sure you'd notice a big difference with some quality sway bars!
flyinmiata.com/products/nd-flyin-miata-sway-bars
Keith...I have a 2009 PRHT GS...it appears to have Bilestein dampers...judging by the yellow.. does it have a heavier front sway bar. I can't find a specs listing on this model here in PEI>
Give our support team a call or email directly, they might be able to answer this for you.
Hello, could you help me find the exact size and how to remove the rear sway bar bolts? The previous owner made a poor repair, and I want to see how to remove part of the cut bolt and replace the bolts correctly.
The bolts that attach the brackets to the subframe? They're a stud, an 8x1.25 if memory serves. It's not uncommon to break one off when installing a sway bar if you get too excited. The solution is to knock or drill the stud out and replace it with a nut and bolt.
@@FlyinMiataVideo
Yes, they are the bolts that go to the subframe. I couldn't find the type of bolt and its size in any manual, only the nut's part number
@@giovannirocco9448 That's because Mazda considers the studs part of the subframe.
NC should also get a new coolant overflow tank although that may fall under “fix whats broken”
ha 404,000 miles - 2nd motor - original coolant tank - has never run hot
Since sway bars don't typically advertise their "spring rate" (capability for lack of better word) how do we know which ones to buy. Do the ebay $60 dollar ones do the same of the $200+ dollar FM or Boss etc? 🤷🏽♂️ we don't know. You get what you pay for is always a sales tactic. Genuine question here.
We don’t usually publish the rates of our bars because people tend to misinterpret them - it’s not unusual for an aftermarket bar to have twice the rate of factory, and that’s often taken a “too stiff”. Sway bars are only a portion of the total roll stiffness, so they need big changes to have an effect. But if you want to know the specific numbers, contact our customer service team.
What you’re buying from a name brand is support, metallurgy and accurate geometry. It’s easy to match the rough dimensions. It’s harder to make sure the steel is correct and the dimensions are truly accurate. The $60 ones might be okay, but it’s a risk.
If you start on driver parts, I need a shoulder. But seriously, I’d suggest a roll bar as the very first mod. Okay, second, after fix-what’s-broke.
Does this still apply to the 2024 RF? Have had mine for 20days and I notice the body roll more and more.
It sure does!
Thanks, Keith!
Also in my 93 Miata with the 1.5 stage suspension... Would I need adjustable end links for the Flyin Miata sway bars?
Not unless you are significantly changing the ride height or plan to corner balance the car. That's when the adjustable end links really come in handy!
Up on the Angeles Crest Highway yesterday I was watching an ND Miata take a long sweeping turn at speed. The car had very considerable body roll. This seems to have been a design decision at Mazda. In stock condition all of our cars do this. This car is simply easier to control if some of this body roll is canceled. Roll is especially problematic in a set of slalom turns. On this there is pretty general agreement in the Miata community. However, this is where the consensus stops.
There are various ways to make a Miata take a corner with less body roll. Some of these methods work well on 'real roads' with pot holes and frost heaves, and others do not. Installing a stout front bar on a car with stock springs does, as you say 'transform' the car. This said, changing the bar, and only the bar, can make the car quirky on rough pavement.
The combination of stiff bar, and soft, stock springs, while it cancels roll, also cancels the independent motion of the wheels on that axle. Up on the Angeles Crest, in the warmer months, we have a car over the side about once a week. A lot of these are owner modified cars with race rubber, coil-overs, and owner specified suspension treatments. Recently Mountain Rescue went down a ravine to extract one car, and found another, previously unknown to them with the driver still in the car, still alive. He had been there for two days. The combination of stiff front bar, and soft stock springs, can, in a sweeping turn taken at speed, badly unsettle the car when the inside wheel drops into a pot hole and the sway bar pressure on the outside wheel is suddenly released.
A major change in only one suspension component, without corresponding changes in the others, can make the car unpredictable, and difficult to manage on any but the flattest of roads. The Angeles Crest Highway, and the other 'Miata' roads here in Southern California, like Stunt Road in Malibu (yes, that's its real name), and the portion of Mulholland Highway known as the "Snake' are wonderful. They are not, however, flat. They are real roads with real potholes. With real roads you need true independence of motion on all four wheels. By controlling chassis lean with springs, dampers, tire side wall stiffness, and tire pressures, rather than with sway bars, you preserve that independence.
A local suspension designer at 949 Racing who is certainly known to you is Emilio Cervantes. He is the founder of 949, and has engineered many of the SuperMiata series of cars. Cervantes writes about 949's series of coil overs: "We recommend using stock sway bars with Xida XL, GS, and Ace." That master of 20th century suspension design, Colin Chapman, from whom the Miata's Power Plant Frame derives, used soft sway bars too. Chapman wrote, in period: "On current racing cars anti-roll bars are needed to obtain the required handling characteristics, but are not necessarily an essential feature of suspension design."
Ref: lotuselan.net/wiki/Colin_Chapman:_One_Man_Band_of_the_Racing_Circus
Before you replace the front sway bar, an important question to ask yourself is whether or not you are using the stock sway bars at full capacity. The factory end links are soft. By changing to rigid sway bar end links (Heim jointed end links at both ends) the 'wind up' in the links is eliminated, and the bar engages much faster. Completely rigid end links cause the effect of the stock bar to be felt instantly on entering the corner. A much sharper 'turn in' is achieved using the stock bar. This effect is transformative of the car.
If the car has too much chassis roll for your taste, the first parts to change are the end links. That can be done in a matter of minutes, costs little, and is a meaningful improvement, both to chassis roll but also to the stability of the car in a long sweeping turn. The speed at which the suspension reacts to the alternating lateral forces in a slalom or chicane is meaningfully increased.
Regrettably the Flyin Miata end link for the NA Miata retains a rubber bushing, on the lower end, from the factory design. Other vendors supply an end link for the NA that has tool-steel, spherical joints at both ends. To eliminate wind up in the end links, real spherical joints (Heim joints) are necessary. Bushings do not get you there. The sway bar bushings that secure the sway bar to the chassis need be changed as well, either to urethane or a stiffer rubber compound.
Stiff bar/soft spring vs soft bar/stiff spring is a matter of preference - there are a number of different schools of thought on it. We prefer a middle of the road approach - don't put a massive 1.25" Racing Beat bar on your car car with stock springs, and don't run 750 lb springs with no bar. Going with a reasonable increase in size can have some real benefits but without much of a downside or introducing poor handling characteristics on rough roads. We do our testing on "real" roads as well, they can easily be found outside California.
We also recommend changing out both front and rear bars instead of just the front unless you are making other changes to modify the balance of the car - and this video was about a single modification, not a whole pile of them.
Only NA factory end links have any rubber in them, so changing out NB-NC/ND end links will not do anything to change the effective sway bar stiffness or how quickly it responds. In our experience, all rod ends have a short service life in an end link no matter how well specified they are, which is why we don't offer them and we choose to retain a bushing in the lower part of the NA end link.
Would stiffer sway bars affect how much dynamic negative camber you get in a same speed/turn corner? Since the suspension wont roll as much?
Keith Tanner Fan
This actually gets interesting if you look at camber relative to the road or relative to the chassis. You'll get less camber gain relative to the chassis, but less camber loss relative to the road surface.
What is the minimum new shocks I would need for my nc2 to add new sway bars?
@Brockthedog315 You don't need to change your shocks to install new sway bars. However, we have found that NC shocks do not last very long, so if you have more than 60,000 miles on them, it's likely time to have them replaced, too.
Hi there. What do you think of installing only rear ARB on a ND 1.5 with Koni Sport (adjustable damping and height) / Eibach springs and 16'' wheels + bracing? I heard that on bumpy, slippery roads (as usual in Greece) having a thicker than stock front ARB there is a degree of understeer induced. Thanks in advance.
Adding just a rear bar will add oversteer. Adding just a front bar will add understeer. It's not due to bumpy roads, it's due to the way the weight transfer changes. We did another video on the theory of sway bars you might enjoy.
Thanks!
Off subject but did you add extra lights into the bumper of the silver NB behind you. If yes what are they
The NB is visually stock, minus some LED bulbs. The fog lights are OEM Mazda that came with the car.
Would sway bars help on an NC1 with brand new Koni STR.t? Stock springs so far.
Certainly.
#1 Off the showroom floor alignment to the FM specifications.
#2 Swaybars
Agreed.
For a DD would it be necessary to upgrade the end links? 2001 SE with 46K miles.
The only real reason to upgrade to adjustable end links would be if you have changed the car's ride height significantly, or if you want to corner balance the car. No need for them if you are at or near stock ride height on a street car.
@@FlyinMiataVideo Perfect, thanks for the reply my FM bars are being delivered today! I'm on stock suspension and really don't plan on changing anything currently. I got a new set of Conti's the other week so I'm good to go :) Thanks for all the great content as always.
I will see a differance if i install a aftermarket sway bar on stock suspension?
You will.
A great channel. Thanks!
Thank you too!
Regarding th NC, does advice still hold even on cars equipped with the yellow billsteins, or are those alright?
The early NC cars had suspension woes across the board. Sway bars will help, no matter which suspension your NC comes with. :)
Haven’t driven my Miata for 6 years , time to change fluids and dust off for some fun.
It'll be worth it!
I'm interested in getting some these but I just would like street ones can you send me a link where I can purchase please
You can get them at flyinmiata.com for all years of Miata.
Hey everyone. I have an MX5 2021. Want to get black rims for it but BBS is way too expensive can you guys help me out what’s a good option .
We have some black wheel options here flyinmiata.com/collections/nd-wheels. Shoot us an email if you have any other questions.
Is the 2006 Miata reliable? I see them much cheaper than the NC2 Miatas-pretty much the same price as a NB.
Ultimately, yes: The 2006-2008 "NC1" Miatas are still great, reliable cars.
Our main best guesses for the lower prices are:
1. They're simply older cars
2. The aesthetics aren't as popular as the later versions
3. The engines on all NC1 Miatas didn't come with forged internals, which means a lower red line and potentially slightly less reliable if you're planning on throwing gobs of boost at it (although, if you keep this conservative, even the NC1 engines should be fine.)
If you see an NC1 for a good price and in otherwise good shape, I say go for it.
Thanks. I’m kind of cross shopping the NC1 and an NB. NB is really fun. I am in the minority but think I like the front fascia of the NC1 over the NC2-but it’s splitting hairs. Both are great. The Miata really is a car where there isn’t a bad looking one. I’m hoping as we enter September I may find a great deal. Thanks so much for your input.
@@treeskier802 You are welcome! Beauty is in the eye of the beholder - if you don't mind the looks of the NC1s, you'll likely have an easier time finding a deal on an NC than an NB.
I have the Koni stage 1.5 installed on my NA (which was my priority because the shocks were blown). I did not install sway bars because my tires (hankook ventus v2) are not great, and I was under the impression that decreasing body roll would put more strain on the tires. Is that incorrect?
Decreasing body roll will not put more strain on the tires.
The first modification is no modification. Appreciate the brand newness for a little while first. ❤
Can't hurt to get a benchmark for later!
My dad passed me his 1990 Miata so he could buy his 2015 Miata. It's basically stock so I may consider adding a sway bar. I only drive around town though, so is doing this a bit of overkill?
Not really. You'll feel the difference even at responsible street speeds. That's one of the reasons it's #1 on our list.
@@FlyinMiataVideo Thanks for the reply! My dad took really good care of the car and it only has 65 or 70,000 mi on it so I want to make sure I'm treating it right while it's my responsibility!
@@MattJones-uv3hw The good news is that if you do change out the sway bars and decide for some reason that they're not for you, the modification is fully reversible.
Is there actually an advantage to not using the rear swaybar for uses like autocross?
Check out Keith's sway bar theory video, he covers instances where removing the rear sway bar has benefits. He doesn't run a rear sway on his personal racecar.
@@FlyinMiataVideo will do, thanks!
What if your NC has the Bilsteins???
We'd still suggest new shocks, preferably Koni Sports, and then move on to sway bars. If you want to lower the car slightly, that'd be our Koni Stage 2 kit with FM springs.
On the ND2 I’d say the lowering the seats with the Paco motorsport mounts made the most notable improvement for me
Hey, you gotta do what you gotta do to fit comfortably!
Question, how does it play with new Mx-5 KPC? -
We haven't tested these on a KPC car yet, but it should benefit from a more managed body roll and weight transfer.
@@FlyinMiataVideo kind of academic question, I don't have one - my 2020 works great with your sways, frame reinforcement, and billet clamps. Seems if I remember correctly if you turn off traction control- KPC turns off too. Then you would really be glad you had those FM sways. Just wondered what your experience was showing. Thanks for the reply!
Can we change sway bars without changing suspension?
Yes, absolutely. An aftermarket ARB will fit fine on a stock suspension setup, and won't interfere if you decide to make other suspension mods later.
Of course. Feel free to reach out to our support team if you have specific questions or just need to talk through the benefits!
I feel like sway bars are first (no matter the generation) and maybe some adjustable end links and other suspension stuff.
Also probably change the tires at the same time or before you change the sway bars.
Then whatever is broken and maybe some mods that increase the longevity (like an oil catch can) once it's all maintained and good you can start beefing the engine and stuff if you want to and/or do cosmetic mods.
Agreed. Tires first. Stiffer side walls and higher pressures make a huge difference.
my first mod? fixing the failing roof latches, and putting the FM banner on the windscreen.
We approve :)
Men, I was shock that the video was ending at 2:12. Dont you ever do this to me again 😂
thank u sir
I was really expecting the answer to be a real, strong roll bar.
A good roll-bar is always a good thing for safety, but we were really looking at it from a performance point of view.
I agree with him because that's what I bought first, haha....and coilovers.
Thanks for watching!
What if you have a NC 13....
The newer NCs had much better suspension, so the Sway Bar First suggestion still applies :)
Second mod to do to your Miata: tighten the nut behind the wheel.
Great!
I read that a swaybar on the back of the nd makes it skitish
All NDs come from the factory with sway bars on the rear. If you increase the size of that rear bar and do nothing else, it will make the car oversteer more. We recommend a balanced front/rear set of bars unless you're trying to achieve a specific handling change.
Adding a front sway bar to an ND is difficult. Adding it to an ND with a Supercharger will make you swear, but still doable.
Agreed - worth it in the end, though!
my first mod is always adding a functional roll bar
We'll never discourage safety mods!
My 2008 NC only had 21000 miles on it, so the first thing I did was replace the original tires. Then supercharged, header back exhaust, big brakes, suspension, etc. Thanks, FM, for fueling my carcaine addiction 😂
Glad we could help! lol
0:10 Is it tires? I bet it's tires.
Awww, sway bars. Good recommendation.
@@gedavids84 should be tires. Nothing I've done made more of a difference.
My first mod on my '''23 miata was the removal of the horrid Bridgestone tires (this reduced the
noise inside cabin tremendously).
Also michellin S5 are the best.
Actually adjusting the swaybars does a lot more than adjusting shocks!
It does different things. But for steady state cornering balance adjustments, they're the way to go!
@@FlyinMiataVideo totally different things, for sure. But balance wise, it’s huge. I had a epiphany at an autocross 10+ years ago, instigated by a fellow miata competitor. I had a good suspension, corner balanced and aligned. But was fighting oversteer. Noticed my friend had massive understeer and was 2 seconds faster. He said disconnect the rear bar, then did that for me lol. Life changing. We matched times and then drove each others cars. Now for mixed use driving my rear bar is connected, but full loose. Front on medium. Best use of my car, way better than before
@@violinmiata The nature of autocross is fairly violent transitions (especially on corner entry) and traction management problems coming off corners due to the low speeds and low gearing. It works better if you maximize rear traction at the cost of front, as you can use those transitions to rotate the car. Street and track use usually rewards a more balanced setup where you have more available traction to initiate a turn and are then able to work all four equally and balance on the throttle with less concern about putting down power. As you move into more powerful cars, you have to start emphasizing that rear traction a bit more - we'll set up a 500 hp V8 a little differently for track use than a 116 hp 1.6 to give the back end a fighting chance. As a bonus, setting the car up to rotate more makes it more playful and more fun. This sort of fine tuning is why adjustable sway bars are such a useful tuning tool.
@@FlyinMiataVideo yep! Adjusting all the bits and pieces does make a difference!!
Even better, just get the front bar :)
That'll lead to more understeer if you don't change anything else, but that can be an improvement in an autocross situation.
*Cries in ND front sway bar labor rates*
We have a video to help with the install :)
th-cam.com/video/aEyQQHbZNFo/w-d-xo.html
What are the 2nd 3rd 4th and 5th Mods to do to your Miata?? 😛
Apple CarPlay (assuming ND),
Sound tube delete (assuming ND),
LED Interior cabin / trunk lights,
Delrin door bushings,
Axle back exhaust,
Spider Grille (assuming ND),
Hard dog roll bar (not sway bar).
This really comes down to personal preference and how you want to use the car, but for a performance build: Suspension, wheels/tires, cooling, turbo.
Nope, it's the better tyres.
NS2R in my case, great mod for a stock street car that has occasional trackdays. Great start for dual duty as well.
Stronger sway bars do have a concern, you loose suspension independency one side to the other.
This is true, but not to the point where it outweighs their advantages on a street car. Rock crawlers are a different beast.
My first mod is an LS swap
We can't argue with you there, just don't forget the suspension and upgraded brakes ;)
With the NC2 suspension package does the “shocks suck” sentiment still apply?
It certainly does.
Change your broken oil dipstick lol