How to Paint MDF Edges - Zinsser B-I-N vs Johnstones MDF Primer
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ธ.ค. 2017
- In this video I will be comparing Zinsser B-I-N with Johnstones MDF Primer, to see which is best at sealing the end grain of MDF.
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In the last video in the series goo.gl/Vq4nJg I ran through various ways of treating MDF end edges. Since then I've had a people saying in the Comments feed that they favour a shellac paint. I have seen a few You Tube wood workers using Zinsser BIN, and as I haven't used a dedicated MDF primer on any of my videos, I thought I'd do a comparison - of Zinsser B-I-N interior and exterior primer-sealer stain killer vs Johnstone's MDF primer. So here it is!
As in my last video, I've prepared a mock up, this time with 2 edges - each comprising 2 x 18mm pieces of MDF, joined together to create a lovely 36mm wide piece of end grain - the ultimate test for our two paints.
TODAY'S TOOL KIT*
- Zinsser B-I-N Primer Sealer Stain Killer goo.gl/71k2DRgeni.us/... (Amazon)
- Johnstone's MDF Primer geni.us/CmyFYqy (Amazon)
- Leyland Trade Acrylic Primer Undercoat goo.gl/LZ5PRa £13.99/ $18.85
- 120 grade sandpaper
- 180 grade sandpaper
- paint brush - preferably pure bristle
- foam roller
* The Amazon links above are affiliate links. It doesn't cost you anything to click on them but I do earn a small commission if you do.
And here's the legal bit I have to state: As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.
MY CONCLUSIONS
The Zinsser B-I-N was ahead at pretty much ever stage of the test. After the first coat, it achieved a much better coverage than the MDF primer. With the Johnstone's primer, you could still see a smudgy brown hue where the end grain was coming through. There was none of this on the Zinsser sample. Both the Zinsser and Johnstone's were a little rough as you would expect, where the end grain had been raised.
Similarly, after the second coat, the Zinsser was also a little smoother, and had more of a sheen to it.
I then applied a top coat of Johnstone's water based satin. Again, the Zinsser was marginally smoother.
So my conclusion - although the Zinsser was marginally ahead at every stage, the difference was marginal at best, and doesn't justify the price difference (£42.99 for a 2.5 litre tin of Zinsser against £24.86 for the Johnstone's). Also, you have to clean your Zinsser paint brushes/rollers with methylated spirit whereas the Johnstone's MDF primer, being water based, can simply be cleaned up with soapy water.
A You Tube buddy of mine Gosforth Handyman is a big fan of Leyland Trade Acrylic Primer Undercoat, which he used in this video goo.gl/f8LbLG and the Leyland Trade is just £13.99 for 2.5 litres.
So I guess I'm saying that as the difference from using the expensive MDF specialist products is almost imperceptible, you might as well stick to a typical quick drying wood primer undercoat - which is just as well, as I've been recommending you all to do this in all my previous videos :)
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Thank you Charlie for your great videos. The attention to the details is what all about. Your videos is so perfect not only for DIYers but also for day by day traders like me. Thank you for your time and your hard work to make those beautiful videos 👍
Thanks for these videos.
Just finished a set of bookshelves using Zinsser 123 two coats on edges sanding each then primer 2 coats then topcoat Dulux Diamond coat trade Eggshell finish. Primer and finish cost were sprayed.
This was my first time working with mdf. Sure is a lot of work doing those edges.
Great and informative videos 👍 thanks for taking the time to do these 😊
If you want perfect mdf edges here is my guide.
Moisture resistant Mdf (preferably Medite) this will give you much better edges from the go.
Cut your mdf with a blade with lots of teeth, no good using a ripping blade, this again gives you a better edge
Now sand your edge either 100 or 120 before prime
Zinsser shellac or whatever paint you want
Sand again
Now just top coat as your edge is like glass.
You wouldn’t know it was mdf
i sand to 120, rub in normal wood glue to the cut grain, dry, then sand again to 240. goes nice and smooth.
Thankyou Charlie, very useful! I'll get on with finishing my MDF speaker cabinets now!
You're welcome. Go BIN. I use it for all my priming these days 😉👍
I'm in the middle of making some MDF furniture, and I went for just filling the edges with regular made-up-from-powder Wickes own-brand Polyfilla-substitute - spatula on, sand flat, and more or less any paint sticks well and leaves a perfectly smooth finish. I tried two-part wood filler and it was more hassle, took longer to go off properly (I guess it's cold in the garage!) and didn't leave a perceptibly better finish.
One big advantage of a shellac-based primer that I've found is that if you ever use a pen while marking out, the ink from the pen will bleed through water-based primers and paints, leaving a mucky dark smear. I used a fine-tip marker for this project because my usual mechanical pencil is barely visible on the MDF; shellac-based primers will cover this in a single coat and not allow the ink through, so for me it's worth either using one (or going over the markings with neat shellac first) just to prevent that.
Hi great explanation. I do Paint Spray MDF FURNITURE priory to seal the edge of with BIN by brash but I properly sand and aptly until come like paper smooth
I also for 2 join panels I apply wood filler and very well sanding. The resultant awesome .
Another great video Charlie
Charlie, the beauty of the Zinsser b.i.n. is that it can be used to prime almost anything, a while ago used it on dark varnished
hardwood doors. The standard primer allowed 'yellowing' to show through after a couple of weeks. so i bit the bullet and forked out for the Zinsser b..i.n. and 1 year later the doors are still as white as first painted. I have also used it on metal filing cabinets/mdf/hardwood/softwwod/plastic. So for me the flexibility of the Zinsser outweighs the initial costs. Great videos by the way, keep them coming. :)
Thanks Andy, that's great to know. I agree and though it's more expensive, it goes further.
Great video and very informative - thanks. Still think you should try the fine wet and dry technique (wet) to make a flat paint slurry. Try it.
John Morton raised a very good point in his comment below which causes me to think I was perhaps a little hasty with my conclusions. The cost per litre of the Zinsser is a lot more than the Johnstone's (£17.19 per litre as against £10.79), but as it's much thinner is goes a lot further/ lasts longer. So I guess if you've got a decent amount of MDF to prime and you don't mind cleaning your equipment with methylated spirits, then the Zinsser is probably the right choice.
Why not use the water based Zinsser primer "Bull's Eye 123"? Clean up becomes a doddle with a small bucket of water at hand.
Great video! Thanks for sharing!
You're welcome Patrick. For the record, I use Zinsser BIN for all my priming these days.👍🏻 th-cam.com/video/2YOASvodntU/w-d-xo.html
I'm going to give the BIN primer a go next time. After building cabinet doors out of birch plywood and wrapping the edges with routed poplar mouldings, I sprayed with two coats of latex primer (HD brand and Zinsser 1-2-3)...after very lightly sanding each coat, I can still see the plywood grain markings showing through. Thinking the BIN would do a better job of blocking.
Charlie, have you used moisture resistant MDF before for cabinetry etc.?
I have found today that you get hardly any end grain ‘fluff’ after a light sand with 120.
Excellent analysis. Thanks
Thanks. I have to say, I use Zinsser BIN for all my priming these days.
I found using the ronseal wood filler gave amazing results on ends
The major difference between the Zinsser and the water based primer becomes apparent when you are finishing something that has been painted before. The shellac, being alcohol based, does not raise the wood grain as much as the water based primer. The shellac will also seal in pitch, ink, crayon, water stains and smoke much better than either a water based primer or an oil based primer. Spot prime before full coating is the process for any primer. Consider the full lifecycle purpose of the primer/paint system you choose. Each system has its strength. The water based primer is a 100% acrylic solids product and very high quality so on a new project with no special requirements, it is fine. If you are repainting drywall that was not primed before it was originally painted, the paint system is still porous. Spot prime and full coat with an oil based primer or a shellac based one. The main advantage of the shellac product over the oil based product is the stain sealing and hiding properties. If you are painting drywall for the first time you can prime very successfully with the water based primer. Don't be too concerned with getting a solid uniform opacity with the prime coat or the first coat of paint. Apply them both wet and then roll or brush them out smooth. If the coat is thin enough the brush marks will flatten out. The second coat will cover very well if the primer and first coat is applied properly.
Thanks for that Patrick - a detailed response from someone who clearly knows their stuff. Thanks for taking the time to put that together!
@@CharlieDIYte Hi. What primer do you recommend for very old wooden doors ? For finish will be use zinsser all coat black gloss. Thank you
Shellac is alcohol soluble, not alcohol based, it's shellac based
In the US the BIN Bullseye Shellac I use on all new cabinet doors with MDF inserts panels. I spray with a cup gun and clean up immediately with ammonia and water. The for a final clean up of the cup gun I use some denatured alcohol.
well done. Just watched your series. Personally I would never use MDF for doors. My use and the requested video is exposed grain on raised panels. far more exposed jnterior "end grain". Looking for a good solution as using solid wood for raised panels is pricey. Hate working with BIN, makes a mess of ones brushes in short order
i think the zinsser is top off the range loved the video.
Thanks Charlie, just about to start an MDF wardrobe project and this was a clear & to the point money saver. Now off to watch the other videos!
Another great vid and cheers for the shout-out Charlie! Would love to see a comparison between the Johnstones and the Leyland when you get a chance - I think they're part of the same group of companies. Out of a matter of interest where are you getting your MDF from? I've seen quite a big difference between manufacturers of how much the end grain fluffs up (ooer). I know B&Q / Tradepoint changed manufacturers recently - haven't tried their new stuff yet. Noticeably better video quality btw - looks great! You're going to be the internet bible of MDF finishes!! 😃👍 Andy Mac
You're welcome mate. I nearly bought some Leyland. Thinking about it I should have compared the three, but I can pretty much guarantee that the Leyland will achieve a similar result, and at that price, it's a no brainer! There's no science to where I get my MDF - I just buy it from the local builders merchant Tippers. Very interesting what you say, though about the quality - I'll bear that in mind next time I buy some. The sample I used does look a bit fluffy, but then again, it's quite old and has been sitting around in the garage, so I'll give Tippers the benefit of the doubt. Cheers for the comment about the video quality. It might be that it's still being optimised, but I've got to say I was disappointed that the uploaded video wasn't nearly as clear - particularly on the close ups of the MDF - as the actual filmed content.
Charlie DIYte vid quality looked spot on to me but it can take a while for TH-cam to do it's thing! :-)
Gosforth Handyman Thanks mate - that's really good to hear!
At last someone with common sense, good video.
Well that was certainly an eye opener.
You want to try out the Zinsser BIN. It's the only primer I use these days.
Do try the Zinsser water based Bull's Eye 123 primer and Zinsser Perma White Satin finish. I would love to see a video from you on these two paints. The difference between paints doesn't show up until they are at least a year old. I have used white Dulux paint in my bathroom that has yellowed after a year. Zinsser Perma White has a 7 year guarantee against yellowing. Worth the extra price to save repainting every couple of years.
Is the Zinsser 123 ok for mdf edges? Or is that one not good for it? Thanks
Fantastic 👍👍👍
Your a legend mate
Thanks buddy. For the record, I use BIN for pretty much all my priming these days 👍
If you take the cost of the Zinsser out of it. Going by what I saw whilst watching the video was that the Zinsser gave much better finish and there was no line showing between the two 18mm panels. I normally fill my edges and joints with car body filler to hind where they are and any screw holes. as I want as flatter finish as possible.
Great video and I'll now be looking at trying the Zinsser to see if it is worth the extra price and time saved on not using as much filler.
Leyland paints and Johnstones I think are the same group. I go to my local Leyland shop for either. If it's not in stock their delivery is amazing and price-wise terrific. I bought paint and decorating services for public buildings at one time always specified Johnstones or Leyland paints, Great performance from both.
Agreed. I used Johnstone's for all my top coats. Mostly Zinsser BIN these days for priming.
I had some real success filling with plain old drywall patch, and a light sand. Or using the faux granite spray. Its a great cheap fix for mdf edges. Paint edges grey, hit them with the faux granite spray, and seal it in with a clear in satin.
Thanks Bob 👍
Hello Charlie, what are your thoughts on quick drying polyurethane automotive primer and paint? The products that you use are not available to me, thanks.
Thank you Charlie, has swayed me in terms of product choice ;-)
The only thing I am missing is a view on performance in damp conditions, i.e., how well it seals MDF to the outside environment. In my mind, I cannot reconcile other than using an oil based product for this.
Thanks again!
In damp conditions, dont use MDF or at least use green moisture resistant MDF and A/C primer / paint.
Just as long as you remember that shellac is *not* oil-based - it's alcohol-based, and is probably less water-resistant than any latex primer.
Excellent video. Wanted to ask, I have an interior wall that is needed to be painted over ( previously been painted). Some areas around the sockets have been replastered (not all the wall). So the wall is mixed with painted parts and bare plaster. I wanted to ask, what is the best way to paint the wall ? Do I need to clean down the painted section and prime it (unsure what white primer to use) and then paint over it with my final coat? Thank you!!
Two good products there, but I prefer thinned oil based undercoat.
I find bin can be hard work on MDF as it can 'pull' when you apply it due to the fast drying and the porous nature of MDF..and water based primer will raise the 'grain' of the MDF, more so in colder conditions as it takes longer to dry, hence more time for the wood particles to swell.
Oil based undercoat combats these two problems and provides a good base for water and oil based products..ok you wont find it in manufacturers information...but nor will you find a lot of other decorating 'hacks'
For washing brushes used in bin 9I used methalated spirits..if the brush goes hard, just leave it soaking in it for a couple of days (some goes for shellac knotting)
i use knotting on all my edges then finish with armstead had no problems... knotting dry's similar to the BIN and a lot cheaper :)
What about mixing the primer with Toupret fillers and using on the end 'grain'
Have I really just watched paint drying for 15 minutes?😂 Thanks Charlie👍
I’ve been upcycling furniture for a while and I’d swear by Zinsser - yup, it’s expensive, but it goes a long way. I find if you apply the expensive primer, you can get away with a cheaper top coat and still achieve a beautiful finish !
I agree. It's awesome stuff, isn't it!
Thank you
With abit more prep work between coats you can get the bin treated mdf to have an edge like glass. Id have sanded it with 180/240/500 on a disc sander and you'll be left with an edge the sprays af flat at the sides
Will try that!
Hi Charlie, you appear to use and be a big fan of mdf.
1. Providing the proper more expensive dust masks are used for cutting/sanding outside do you think pound for pound this is the best "wood" material you can have for stuff that isn't pride and joy face work? Obviously this isn't a material I will be using for my kitchen worktop but the likes of wardrobes and desks is this the cheapest/best in the UK?
2. What are you thoughts against pine and 3/4 inch plywood in terms of price and performance?
Thanks for the effort you have put into this video, I can see the time/effort 1st hand with camera angles, panning in, commentary and also the post filming editing work you would have needed to do to create a video at this standard all whilst carrying out your day job or on supposed time off on the weekend.
In a 7 foot closet I have just put in a plywood carcass to make a total of about 20 cubby shelves, I sanded down and used Leyland wood primer @ £13.99 w/ 2 coats and 1 coat of Leyland matt emulsion @ £11.99 I was a happy bunny with the finish. The question is would MDF have been a lot more cheaper than the 3/4 inch ply to justify spending £10 more per 2.5 litre tin to primer with....
3. I would love to give an idea of doing a comparison video on the best way to clean rollers/paintbrushes from water based paint. This would come up in searches worldwide and wouldn't be limited to the UK audience or just your subscribers. You mentioned warm soapy water for your cleaning of water based paint on your brushed in this vid. I have always in my DIY scenarios just washed the brushes/rollers with cold tap water within 15 minutes of finishing painting and been happy with the results after 5 minutes and an old worn toothbrush - can this be bettered?
4. A big big thumbs up on this video - you have gone through exhaustive detail both on the practical side and theoretical side in research. Apologies for the long comment - just wanted to give some solid feedback from someone who watches the vast majority of your videos, lives in the UK (London) and thinks your work is absolutely solid, logical and well explained so i'm appreciative of your effort to film this content for us for free all whilst carrying out your day job!
Ryan
Hi Ryan - it's been a busy week on the work front so apologies for taking a while to get back to you! Yes, I am a big fan of MDF - it's incredibly easy to work with, but I guess the main advantage of it is the size of the sheets and therefore the versatility in terms of what you can make out of it.
1. You're right, you need to wear an appropriate dust mask - something I confess I don't wear often enough. I'd say you can still use it for pride and joy face work - and a lot of pro joiners do just that. It's just that if you are going to use it for carpentry that's going to be prominent in your house, you need to take care on how you finish it - particularly the edges (where the end grain is quite problematic to paint), and on how you paint it. You can get moisture resistent MDFs, but you're right, you should never really use any sort of MDF where moisture is going to be an issue. Yes, it's great for wardrobes and desks, but remember, like any wood it will warp if left unsupported, so make sure you design the wardrobe/desk with appropriate strengthening supports - as I did for my daughter's desk, for example th-cam.com/video/-OvufFoUGBw/w-d-xo.html
2. Pine and plywood are obviously superior products to MDF - pine is so easy to paint and plywood has that extra strength and is more resistant to warping because of the way the thin sheets are glued together to make it. In terms of price, I think they're all much of a muchness in my opinion - ply is probably about £5 a sheet more expensive than MDF.
You're right, it takes a LONG time to produce some of these videos, with the editing sometimes taking longer than the filming. My kids are always giving it to me in the neck for not spending more time with them.
If you got a great result with ply, I'd be inclined to stick with it. It's obviously better (stronger) to screw into than MDF, and the extra expense (roughly £4-5 per sheet) isn't great. I guess MDF will look smoother - particularly on the face of the sheet - when painted than ply, although ply will give you that more natural wood look.
I'm not sure you need to buy more expensive paint though to paint MDF. A lot of people I speak to (and me included!) use standard wood primer undercoat to prime MDF, and Leyland for example produce a 2.5 litre tin for less than £10 goo.gl/9Bw2qN. Gosforth Handyman loves this stuff - check out his video th-cam.com/video/htrEiKrD7AY/w-d-xo.html
3. No, the way you clean them is fine. I recommend for each product to look on the tin and see what the manufacturers recommend.
4. Can't thank you enough for the kind, insightful comments, mate. You're right, it's often a pretty tough, lonely existence shooting and editing these videos in between the day job, and feedback from people like you make it all worthwhile. Thanks again for supporting my Channel, and have a great Christmas.
Hi Ryan,
You give us all so much valuable advice so please let me give you some. Listen to your kids and spend more time with them. All too soon they flee the nest and the time you have spent with them before that happens gives them so much to take with them. Don't fall into the trap of always being too busy to give your kids the greatest gifts, your love and your time.
Charlie DIYte Thanks for the detailed response!
I generally use 3/4" ply at home unless its got to be super neat facework then i can nail some pine edging on to cover the end grain. Ply is also fantastic for screwing into as opposed to mdf too. Both great materials though.
Keep going with the channel, with the quality you apply to your filming, explanations, carrying out the work and great editing to stitch it all together your channel will grow no doubt, just don't alienate the Americans as there are a lot of them on the youtube lol.
Cheers.
Bonjour, thank you for your sharing ;) I have a question about the recycling. I want to use the old mdf with PVC on it, i dont know if i Can Peel the PVC or paint on it. I dont spend too much money for that. Have you an advice about that?
Thank you very, very much :) I try asap on one MDF and if it's not too long to peel, i will continue. Thank you :)
As I am about to paint a major MDF project this guidance video has been most in formative. Great thanks. I am still concerned however that you can see the grain on the MDF edges after the final coat. It seems to me that some form of wood filler is required to get the perfect edge especially on MDF visually exposed edges; any advice on this or what filler would be best used? It used to be common to use grain fillers (or paste) on high quality furniture to get the perfect finish.
Hi Frank, the best finishes are achieved with iron on tape, or as you correctly say, wood filler. See this vid for more info th-cam.com/video/kic9W4hqfbs/w-d-xo.html
Zinsser B.I.N. Is an excellent excellent primer. Absolutely love the stuff. You can get it in spray cans as well.
I use Zinsser "Cover Stain" (oil-based & tintable) primer exclusively for all my commercial MDF projects as well as cabinetry. It dries rock hard and sands extremely well, and it presents an excellent base to quality top coat products. Cover Stain performs exceptionally well with MDF as it doe not raise fibers, especially along cut faces. I only spray Cover Stain for best coverage and smooth finish, albeit with some waste. The ONLY disadvantage of Cover Stain, apart from clean up, is its cost; the stuff is expensive. Charlie, I recommend you compare it to B.I.N... You may be impressed.
Now THAT IS interesting, and funnily enough I have a tin on the floor by my desk as we type as someone was asking me about it recently. Yes, I'll definitely do that and have an MDF project coming up shortly that it might be worth trying it out on. Out of interest do you use moisture resistant MDF for your projects, or the usual stuff? BIN has become my only primer of choice since making this video, but I'm finding it doesn't behave very well in this weather - it dries within about 10 seconds of applying it which makes it a bit of a nightmare to use. It may of course be because I stupidly left the lid off recently and the surface skinned over.
@@CharlieDIYte have you tried cover stain oil based instead of bin and did you do a video?
Is that the standard/common oil based primer by zinnser?
good stuff , Like the approach of try it rather than state it.
Thanks for the comment!
Hi there, great video. With the johnstones primer being water based, it is therfore going to bring out the grain more that the zinsser bin. With that being the case, the johnstones would just need more sanding to create the same level of smoothness as the one coated in zinsser...i personally dont think one product is better than the other, i just think that the preperation process differs slightly to achieve the same end result?
the water based product will sink into the substrate more with it having more open time, compared to the zinsser product drying much faster and just sitting on the top of the substrate.
Thanks for the comment - I agree with that!
Just sanded end grain down with orbital sander to 120 grit then applied zinnser. The difference is remarkable.
Yes, as discussed here bit.ly/3wbEprJ I agree it makes a huge difference. 👍🏻
If you have to paint bare mdf cupboard doors it's not possible to brush or roll 2 coats of bin on? I think the bin seals the surface better than any waterbased primers leaving a better finish if using a waterbased satin finish
I use the spray version of the BIN on edges (no clean up) and then HVLP the Johnstones on the panel faces. Like @ParsleyPunch does: I then fine fill the edges using Toupret filler to smooth them perfectly, a MUST when it's a premium media cabinet for a customer!
Good comparison, so I used the shellac. The BIN is good for lots of other tasks too. Like covering knots and stains. Have you ever tried polyurethane on MDF ?
The BIN is the only primer I use these days. No, I haven't, although I can't really see in what situations I'd want a varnished MDF. 👍🏻
With proper prep and 3 coats you will get good results brushing even the cheapest primers and paints. The problem finishers face is spraying finishes on open grain. And let’s face it, you could be the best painter in the world, but it’s still a brushed finished, and that’s not acceptable in many cases. You should do a vid on getting good results with a spray finish, because that is where the real problem with finishing mdf lies. Clawlock is the best underbody I’ve used for spraying mdf.
Would u get the same problem with a routed edge as with a sawn edge? I'm thinking of rounding my face edges.
yes , the edges of MDF needs sealing if you want it to be "smooth" ..... route , saw , no matter , seal edges .... light sand .... sometimes I'll just use a spray can of primer or cheap paint to seal .... walmart spray paint is so thin it soaks in deep , takes two or three coats but you recoat in 2 minutes .... walmart spray paint costs $1 a can !!! MDF soaks it up like a sponge deep in the pores
Hi I'm thinking a window frame that is made out of MDF wanting to use regular water-based paint as the final paint. Q: what undercoat do Iplease how many coats do I need to apply before the final finish. Thank you
You can overpaint the Zinsser BIN with water based final coat. I'd apply two coats of the BIN and then two top coats.
Thanks for the excellent video. I'm constructing some campervan furniture out of moisture resistent MDF...What would you use for the top coat on something like that? I suppose it needs a similar finish/toughness to kitchen cabinets. Any thoughts much appreciated.
I'd be inclined to prime it with the BIN, and then give it 2 coats of acrylic eggshell and 1 to 2 coats of matt (or gloss depending on the finish you're going for) varnish. The varnish is important as without this it will stain easily (eg red wine).
Thanks for that, much appreciated.
I kine to use Wooster brushes--like butter- but don't want to ruin them with oil. I'm going to be doing some kitchen cabinets with bare acrylic which I guess is the oil base. And I'm going to have dedicated brushes because I've got the paint brush cleaner but I dread it. I know it's going to ruin some of my brushes. I like them so much I'm going to leave them in my will to a friend of mine. Ha ha. But this was really good. I don't have a lot of MDF to paint. But one cruddy storage cabinet and one black nasty plastic thing out in the garage. so we shall see. Thank you so much. Lovely video
Thanks for that Gail. Yes all understood. I too have fallen in love with the Wooster stuff as you'll see in this vid. Zinsser BIN is my go to primer these days and actually the brushes clean pretty easily with the Zinsser brush cleaner, or methylated spirits bit.ly/2UfXY4B
I would quite like to see you test primer/undercoating over oil based skirting. I heard that zinnser was good and no pre sanding is needed but would other water based products be just as good?
Hi, i used it over oil based varnish and it worked a treat, 2 coats and none of the varnish showed at all, other primers showed yellow through after a few weeks, cheers.
Thanks for the video(s)!
BIN primer can also be cleaned effectively with ammonia (also smelly, but cheap).
Now, an old-school method of sealing MDF edges-- Rabbit skin glue! It comes as a bag of flakes that you mix with boiling water. It may require sanding after and possibly multiple coats but I remember it leaving a very smooth finish, ready for primer. A more reasonable product you may want to test out (and has MULTIPLE uses) is Zinser's GARDZ... there's a 48 page PDF file available to tell you everything it is good for. I've used it to seal the face of MDF before with great results and can imagine it would do well on the ends given proper dry-time.
Hi. Is the zinsser bins high in voc. Do we need to ventilate the rooms
It's a bit pongy when you put it on but being a natural (shellac) product I'm pretty sure the voc levels are immaterial when it's dry.
You can get a standard cheaper primer 5 litre for £25 approx, shop around at the trade stores
Stir from the bottom up!
Says a man who knows what he's talking about! Couldn't agree more, and I was reminded about this by a painter on site I spoke to recently who I found using it, and got talking to.
Hi Charlie, do any of the products you've used in your video's waterproof and seal the MDF? I'm thinking of replacing the cupboard door under the sink.
Lee Breen Funnily enough I was thinking about this yesterday as the builders put an MDF sill in our kitchen above the sink when we moved in (not my choice, I favour timber sills). It's bearing up pretty well in spite of having leaking flower pots and general splashes a lot of the time. My advice would be to use moisture resistant MDF if you can get hold of it. Most high end joinery (veneered wardrobes etc) I encounter in my day job seem to be made from it, and that, combined with say Zinsser BIN primer and perhaps a couple of coats of acrylic eggshell will make that woodwork pretty impregnable 🤔
Charlie DIYte. Thank you Charlie thats a great help.
@@CharlieDIYte hi Charlie I use a lot of MDF board for my resin artwork but have had a few pieces warp could you tell me what I can do to prevent MDF warping, thanks in advance, your videos are great 😊
Can we move the paint to a regular like pepsi plastic bottle so its easier to use and easier to close after finishing a project??
The water based paints perhaps, but I'm not sure how the BIN, being shellac would react with the plastic.
Clean spirit cleans BIN (12+ hours) and then wash with soap and water. Nice to use. Meths is horrible stuff to use.
Interesting video. :)
Thanks Wayne. I'm guessing that's what's in Zinsser's own BIN brush cleaner 👍🏻
The big lesson from the video seems to be that it really doesn't matter how much the primer raises the grain if you're going to sand it down afterwards. (but shellac is still great for priming crap wood with knots in it, as it lets you use a latex top coat without getting ugly knothole stains)
Fair point. I've ditched all my primers now and just use B-I-N.
Great, video but one thing I'm missing is the cutting method for your sample mdf. Was it cut with a fine tooth blade? Plunge saw etc. I think it would give a bit more context. I say that because the edges looked rough to begin with. Also, sorry if you outlined it in the video and I missed it.
Thanks. Take a look at this vid th-cam.com/video/763yQg0Euwc/w-d-xo.html of you have a moment. From memory they were hand sawn (but they could have been done on the circular saw) and then electric planed but the point is each was done the same way. Sanding the cut edge before and after painting is key. 👍
How does the BIN primer compare with Zinsser 123 on MDF?
It's shellac based whereas the 1-2-3 is water based. So I think it's always better to avoid water based on MDF where possible, and as BIN dries almost as quickly as you apply it, you can do a couple of coats very quickly, massively cutting down your painting time.
Apply this method to water resistant mdf and it’ll turn out very nice
B.I.N primer is probably the best around, you can actually store the brushes by wrapping them very tightly in clingfilm then place in a freezer bag and tie the top so it's airtight or use an empty plastic takeaway box with a lid (if the brish fits in). This will keep the brush wet for days at least.
For water based undercoats and glosses use Corona Archer brushes, you almost lay the paint on, you don't work the paint like you would with an oil based, one lay off, when it dries it will have a nice flat coat, no brush marks. Brushes must be synthetic and Blaze or Archer brushes for a high quality finish.
Thanks Mark, a wealth of info there and timely, because I'm working on a vid right now where I've used the B.I.N Primer - which I've totally fallen in love with (if you can fall in love with a paint primer!) Out of interest, why must the brushes be synthetic? We're always told to go pure bristle?
Hi Charlie, for water based paints pure bristles are not fine or soft enough. If you buy a set of Corona Archers or Proform Blaze brushes you will instantly see the difference. Due to how soft they are it helps put on a better coat. Ideally you almost lay it on, you want to minimize brushing it out because if you put it on evenly you literally just need to lay off a door facing once then leave it, the thicker coat will level off nicely and minimize visible brush strokes almost an oil like leveling off if you use a paint like Benjamin Moore and the higher quality water based coatings. For applying the shellac (B.I.N) itself, pure bristle is fine for water based paint you'll see the difference right away using a quality synthetic brush, night and day as they say.
Johnstones water based U\C and gloss is good stuff but BM is at the top end both in quality and price.
Yeah B.I.N is great stuff, usually one coat is all you need, with water based sealer like high hide etc 2 coats are normally needed and given B.I.N is very watery you get alot of coverage and a good seal on the surface as well.
Thanks Mark, that makes a lot of sense. You clearly know your stuff. Are you a painter decorator by any chance? Out of interest, where do you stand on the whole roller/ paint brush finish thing? I was at a large country house recently installing a pelmet board which I had primed and top coated with a foam roller - as you'll never see it because it's hidden behind curtains, and the painter took one look at it and said "what sort of a bloody finish is that?" It seems that a brush stroke finish is viewed as being a much more professional finish than a rollered/ spray painted finish on wood work. I can kind of see the logic of this in that it looks more traditional, but there's also an argument that a beautifully smooth finish looks smart, and you're not going to want to prime a large set of MDF doors with Zinsser B.I.N when you can roller them in my opinion. Also, you never hear people say "ooh what a lovely finish - it's so much better when you can see the brush strokes" :) I tend to roller the rails and stiles and use a brush for the mouldings. Interested to know your thoughts on this.
You guessed right am a painter and decorator, some painters will roll panels etc for speed, especially with water based paint but will typically lay it off with a brush. Seeing brush strokes isn't a good thing, in fact if you look on forums like painters pitstop you'll see a big shift towards spraying because it's a better finish. If you use an hvlp (or XVLP) there is little over spray and masking is minimal, airless with a fine finish tip produces similar results as hvlp, it will put out more overspray because even with a fine finish tip it'll be running at 1200-1800 PSI whereas an hvlp or xvlp will be running alot lower than that.
What produces a flat finish, whatever method you use to apply the paint is a thick enough coat and the right conditions for the paint to level off. It is easier said than done, with old oil based paint before the VOC regs the paint would flow nicely and level off very well. The new oil based formulas don't work well and yellow within months, more so in dark areas which is why there is a big shift to water based paint. Although alot of paints say they are water based they are actually hybrid paints containing some oil and will yellow, just not as fast as an pure oil based paint. Brands like Bedec, Benjamin Moore and others are true water based glosses or satins and will not yellow. Adding the likes of Floetrol or XIM will give more open time to water based paints (so improving the window for the paint to level off). You can also heat water based paints to improve flow, there is even a paint kettle which will heat the paint up and keep a constant temperature. If you check out this youtube user th-cam.com/channels/6Pk5JfmxB8iSpjdT560F1g.html you get a better understanding about spraying etc. You'll also see the machine he uses warms up the paint, another good tip (credit to joeprodecor, another youtube user) is to use a rice cooker to warm up the paint. As odd as all this sounds, what you're doing is applying the paint at it's optimal temperature. If you're spraying the heat makes the paint alot easier to spray without needing to thin (this applies to hvlp\xvlp) an airless sprayer will spray any paint unthinned but heat improves the paint flow so helping the leveling off.
If you had a larger set of MDF doors to prime you'd spray them, failing that, you would roll and lay off but there are other primers like BM high hide which might be worth looking into. You'd use a foam roller but you wouldn't be shy laying the paint on because this would help the leveling off. A common mistake is to try and stretch the paint too far with water based paint, this does 2 things, it will lose the wet edge quicker and greatly reduce the chance of the paint leveling off properly so you'll get a stipple effect. You can test this yourself, paint a strip of MDF as you currently do, then do another and spread the paint half the distant you normally do (using water based paint).
After all that to answer your question most painters and decorators don't want to see brush strokes lol but the key is to have a level undercoat because if you see brush marks on the undercoat you'll definitely see them with the finish coat.
The WRX water based primer comes in 5l and highly rated for a MDF edge primer.
Thanks Richard
Any painter and decorator would tell you in two minutes that zinseer is the best primer sealer on the market, it covers all bases regarding new or previously painted and varnished surfaces so it works out much cheaper in long run, plus you can thin it down a good 10-15% with methylated spirits, water based MDF paints are okay but not as good as shellac based products....
Henry Hartley Thanks Henry. I appreciate that - makes sense.
Yep 100% agree. Used both but always my go to is a tin of bin. Also carry zinseer 123 in my van. Its multiple uses cannot be beaten. Bin dries in 15 mins max. You can put 3 coats of bin on in the time the water based is ready to go. As a decorator you cant wait 24 with just two coats you wouldnt last 5 minutes in the trade. Regards cleaning i always carry methylated spirits as it has multiple uses too and takes the same amount of time to wash a brush as a water based. And ive just picked up a 2 half litre tin of bin for £30. Win.
Charlie, have you had any experience with spraying the BIN by any chance? Also am I right in thinking it seals the edges from water ingress?
Hi Roger, I used their spray can th-cam.com/video/wk6tpkC8fOI/w-d-xo.html buy haven't put the tin version through a sprayer if that's what you mean? I imagine it would spray quite well though and wouldn't need thinning as it's thin anyway. Yes being shellac based out would seal well to protect from water ingress. Best to add a top coat as well though as it is only a primer.
@@CharlieDIYte Thanks! Too coat will be of the Mrs choosing colour wise. It's just a couple of faker shaker doors in a WC under the sink but still wary of any water getting into the end grain especially. I was meaning one of these hvlp guns, I have a cheap one from Amazon I was going to try. I'll give it a go on some scrap first, if it fails I'll try the cans. Thanks again.
Not surprised that there is less brown showing through the Zinisser, it's a stain blocking paint.
Aye. This was an early Zinsser vid for me. It's all I use these days except in the summer when it dries too quickly to get off the brush.
Have you ever tried the Zinsser Cover Stain primer .. It's oil based
Hi Brian, I haven't actually, as the BIN seems to be more of a general primer, which is what I wanted it for, plus I like the shellac properties of the BIN.
Johnstones advanced stainblock primer is shellac based and is exactly the same as the bin but much cheaper.
Ah, good info - many thanks for sharing that!!
Hi I'm doing fire damage property with heavy stains has been washed down just confused on what to use as peope have said just use normal oil base all over some say zinzzer bin just looking at your review saying johnstons is the same as zinzzer can you please shed some light on it before I spend thousands on paints
Hi, what is the best roller to paint over Zinzer on mdf with thick lacquer paint?
I'd go with a mint roller frame with simulated mohair or even a foam roller sleeve - any sleeve that's designed for gloss paints/ lacquers.
@@CharlieDIYte Painted already. Thank you anyways
Hi, would I be able to coat mdf in the Zinsser to use as a table top for outside under a shelter? The table will also be coated in resin. Thanks
I think so, John, particularly as it's under a shelter. It can certainly be used as a spot primer outside but the instructions don't go further to say it's a complete outdoor primer There are probably better exterior primers out there, though.
@@CharlieDIYte thanks for the reply Charlie, could you recommend a good exterior primer as I concerned about the mdf blowing.
Have you bought the MDF yet? If not you'd be better using medite tricoya. You submerge that stuff in water for weeks, fish it out and it won't have blown one mm.
@@CharlieDIYte Yes, unfortunately i have already been given the table top mafe from mdf.
Hey, a couple things... Sheet goods at the home centers aren't nearly as good as if you go to a hardwood dealer. Do some research and find some Super Refined MDF. You won't have to do any special treatment to the edges. Also, take a look at Stix Primer. It's coverage capabilities are far superior to the Zinsser BIN
Thanks for that. I agree on the wood. Sadly Stix isn't widely available here in the UK but I need to try it out 👍
If you want better end grain you are better off finding a higher quality MDF rather that the badly compressed and fluffy board you buy in the big DIY sheds. The high quality sheets that were more common 20 years ago have much tighter grain so if you cant source any of that you would be better using moisture resistant MDF that is generally of higher quality.
Thanks Julian. I totally agree - and see a lot of moisture resistant MDF on some pretty high quality carpentry on site. Problem is it's harder to come by - most of the timber merchants around me don't stock it.
Zinsser 123 is better from priming mdf than the shellac BIN, imo.
When cleaning brushes that have been used with a water based paint i use liquid hand cleaner... it seems to clean the brushes more thoroughly.
Yes that will definitely be the case, and I use small wire brushes to clean off any hardened residues.
There is no need to apply undercoat after zinsser bin?
No. You can go straight on with the top coat.
Can MDF primer be used on laminated surfaces before painting?
Standard MDF primer, no. MDF is still a porous surface at the end of the day. You may get away with Zinsser BIN but it will scratch off relatively easily. Best to try and find a specialist laminate paint.
Where can I buy MDF primer I'm from San Diego California
Just to add one thing, the Zinsser BIN goes for ever because it's so thin, it's costs a lot more but it really goes that much further.
Zinsser every time for me.
John Morton That is a very good point, John!
For me it's always Zinsser BIN for every job. The benefits become clear when you paint the colour coats. As a tradesmen I am not a fan of water based primers for wood or sheet materials. A bit of meths for clean up is no big deal. The cost of Zinsser is well worth it.
I agree. It became my go to primer shortly after I did this video.
Shellac it’s worth the price. You can spend less if you use ammonia to clean brushes, than rinse with clean water.
I'm with Abel! Here in the US, I was using denatured alcohol (I think the same product called methel-something over there) for cleanup, but complained bitterly about it while at the store buying some supplies, and someone told me about using 1/2 ammonia and 1/2 water. It works great and even works for cleaning latex paint. BTW, I think alcohol-based primers are worth the money. They don't swell the grain, stick to nearly everything, and are ready to sand very quickly. I'm a huge fan of Zinser BIN.
You don't need to clean the brushes put them on an airtight pot with a bit of methylated spirit and you can use the brushes over and over again
I just recently used a water based Zinsser "Bullseye 1 2 3 primer", painted an old pressure treated post with crack repairs. Then put on an outdoor paint. Went on smooth, and washed up brushes easily. You can use it on wood, metal and masonry.
Thanks Steve. Yes it's not bad. I was a little bit underwhelmed by it on this project th-cam.com/video/4ylDeQXv1k0/w-d-xo.html compared to BIN but the Bullseye 123 Plus is even better according to a decorator on my Discord forum.
you should sand the end grain first ,then fill the end grain with a two part filler then sand. Then remove dust from the mdf . then prime. Sand again remove dust and apply 2 x top coat as eggshell is self under coating
Thanks Daniel. Yes that's a good comprehensive solution. The sanding is crucial as discussed here th-cam.com/video/763yQg0Euwc/w-d-xo.html
You should of sanded the primer on the MDF to a smother finish first coat ( got rid of the bumps) before the second coat of primer. then the finish coat.
oil based primer or undercoat diluted is best for mdf
The MDF in this demo seems to be pretty coarse to me. More like a fine particle board than "true" MDF.
The MDF I encounter tends to have "fuzzy" edges after cutting/routing.
MDF can vary in quality. Moisture resistant is the best to get but these days I always use Zinsser to treat the edges and then sand them back before repainting as discussed here th-cam.com/video/763yQg0Euwc/w-d-xo.html
Caperol Haftprimer first, then sand for fusion. Top coats. If you have real issues then go this way. Zinsser Gardz, sand, Haftprimer, sand, tops. Honestly this system doesn’t fail me.
Thanks mate. Sounds likea really good solution that. A decorator on our Discord forum swears by the Gardz too, but I've never used the Haftprimer 👍
@@CharlieDIYte water based adhesion primers have really come on or become more accessible over the last 5 years or so - in my view. The growth of spraying has meant that the products have stepped up/been invested in. I now only use BIN as a stain blocker/knotting/resin etc. As a primer it used to be the one (15-20 years ago) but simply there are better products for adhesion availale for everyday purchase. Pretty much every brand has something that will outperform BIN in a tile scratch test (and that includes Zinsser). 👍
Hi, can you use water based primer with oil based paint?
Yes as long as the primer has dried out fully before you apply the oil based coat
@@CharlieDIYte Thank you very much. Appreciate the rapid response
Zinsser can be cleaned with warm water with ammonia. Read how to clean on the on can.
how about painting wood veneer on a new door? Are they both ok to use?
Zinsser BIN would have good adhesion to veneer. I don't think the Johnstone's would.
@@CharlieDIYte thanks! I wonder if can I use waterbased paint on top of Zinsser Bin? Like Little Green? Love your videos! :)
@@ula347 Yes you can, like I did here th-cam.com/video/2YOASvodntU/w-d-xo.html. Thanks 👍
My neighbour who is a complete DIY Nut! Says that MDF dust causes Cancer of the lungs! And should always be cut outdoors and you should also wear a mask! Charlie can you advise. Thanks Buddy
TheAudiostud It's unclear what exactly is so poisonous about MDF dust. Some say the powerful US timber companies created a lot of the scare stories when MDF first came on the scene because they had so much to lose as MDF took off. But I think it's very wise to take precautions and to always use a mask when you're cutting it - particularly in doors.
Charlie DIYte Thanks Charlie
@@CharlieDIYte It is the urea formaldehyde based glue used in manufacturing mdf thats bad for health.