Top 3 Shoulder Bursitis Exercises and Stretches to Eliminate Pain.

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 มิ.ย. 2024
  • Famous Physical Therapists Bob Schrupp and Brad Heineck present the top 3 shoulder bursitis exercises and stretches designed to eliminate pain.
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ความคิดเห็น • 225

  • @jadenguyen7788
    @jadenguyen7788 3 ปีที่แล้ว +37

    From some who’s suffering from bursitis for over 1 year these exercises have definitely helped! Thank you guys

    • @goawayjukloph2063
      @goawayjukloph2063 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      Hey does you're shoulder crack and pop and rub?

    • @Bitcash1
      @Bitcash1 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@goawayjukloph2063 mine does. How has your shoulder been after 6 months of making the comment?

    • @anasrefaat7858
      @anasrefaat7858 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@Bitcash1 Can you tell me if you did improve, if yes then how?

    • @Okechi
      @Okechi 10 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Son of a biscuit you dealt with this for a year!! Omg

    • @TheZipper1990
      @TheZipper1990 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@Okechi Im on my 5th year D:

  • @magicLA1980
    @magicLA1980 2 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    You guys got me through my impingement now it’s bursitis. Thank God I found this channel cause I’m breaking down but gym is life

  • @AashakaJepaliya
    @AashakaJepaliya 7 ปีที่แล้ว +44

    You guys aren't appreciated as much as you really should be! Thanks for these videos :)

  • @axiss5840
    @axiss5840 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Really glad this actually was just 3 simple exercises and not '3 exercises you can do with a home gym and 4 health specialists on-call'

  • @loraineduguay1782
    @loraineduguay1782 2 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    Omg..I tried these exercises..the hand on the counter and pushing down works...I have tried all 3 exercises and it works!!! Thank you so much...I didn't want to use any meds..so it was nice to finally find exercises that works...🤗🤗

  • @paleexercise8314
    @paleexercise8314 5 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    Informative and entertaining as always, thank you!

  • @deniseoesterling9522
    @deniseoesterling9522 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    You guys are wonderful for offering help to people with these great videos. Thanks!

  • @laminate7
    @laminate7 7 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    You guys are fantastic. Thanks for the video.

  • @brutalcommandocivilwarbeas3145
    @brutalcommandocivilwarbeas3145 4 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Thanks again Brothers

  • @frankcard9461
    @frankcard9461 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Very nice, amazing!!! I can feel the benefits doing those exercises; Thanks again Bob and Brad; Much appreciated!!!

  • @jamesjohnson6250
    @jamesjohnson6250 6 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Your channel is always the first stop for me when I need PT/OT help. You guys are good, thank you!

  • @ginakeefer9427
    @ginakeefer9427 6 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    I was suffering from shoulder pain that radiated down my arm to elbow and across to my shoulder blade for 4 months. I wasn't able to sleep at night due to the burning in my shoulder. I saw 3 different specialists who diagnosed me with shoulder bursitis and tendonitis and one even thought it was a pinched nerve. I tried physical therapy but they made the pain worse. I finally came across this video and faithfully did the exercises every other day for a month. The pain is gone! I still have to be careful with it and can't vacuum, etc. but the daily pain and burning is gone. Thank you for making these videos!

  • @thekangaroo42
    @thekangaroo42 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Awesome videos! Thanks!

  • @MayankSingh-uj6hi
    @MayankSingh-uj6hi 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    thank u so much bob and brad sir

  • @annehalkyard
    @annehalkyard 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Thanks! I can do these three exercises and heal my shoulder. Thank you so much for sharing this.

  • @derita43
    @derita43 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    You guys are the Best!!!! Thanks for your help

  • @wandahare8064
    @wandahare8064 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thank you for the advice. I’m definitely going to try these. Definitely looking for relief. This is very much appreciated. Something I can do

  • @indifferenz
    @indifferenz 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    thanks very much! these were great exercises, and greatly helped my shoulder.

  • @jeffjenkins1799
    @jeffjenkins1799 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Crazy good. I just did the hand on table walk back and instantaneous relief. Thank you!

  • @jwebbs999
    @jwebbs999 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Helped a lot. Thanks guys!

  • @Alex-pn1fy
    @Alex-pn1fy 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    WOW! Thank you guys! I've been having shoulder pain for the past couple of weeks and no stretches I've done have helped. I will try these exercises out :)

  • @EricFoemmel
    @EricFoemmel 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Starting this today! Thank you!

  • @manicmaximum
    @manicmaximum 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    you guys are great. thanks!

  • @rrteleman7383
    @rrteleman7383 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    You guys are great men for helping so many people. Thank You and God Bless

  • @MundaneM3
    @MundaneM3 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    thanks bob & brad!!!

  • @pasqualinoversace3886
    @pasqualinoversace3886 6 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Thank you gentlemen 👍🏼👌🏼😉

  • @adeomoadex
    @adeomoadex 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    You are A team. Simply excellent. Thanks

  • @KingsCrossVIP
    @KingsCrossVIP 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Everytime i have a problem you 2 always solve it amazingly. Thanks so much God bless 💞

  • @airiell1
    @airiell1 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thanks for sharing 🙏🏽

  • @mdumbrell
    @mdumbrell 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    This is excellent information. Very helpful. Thank You !

  • @Christynmaine
    @Christynmaine 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Wow, It really works! Thanks soo much.

  • @a.phillips6892
    @a.phillips6892 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thank you! Great exercises!

  • @omranali1068
    @omranali1068 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thank you so much for the advice

  • @orlandoc661
    @orlandoc661 11 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Great video thx for sharing

  • @blowera1
    @blowera1 ปีที่แล้ว

    Great info and I like how you guys also make it fun.

  • @leithagrover9116
    @leithagrover9116 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thanks for this fun and informative video

  • @cddahlia9472
    @cddahlia9472 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    A big thank you !

  • @petercheney8316
    @petercheney8316 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Dudes.
    These three exercises just changed my life, immediately.

  • @user-ep9de8uk9g
    @user-ep9de8uk9g 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    The shoulder squeeze has helped me a lot. Thank you thank you thank you. Pain has become only minor discomfort. Great improvement!

  • @yogawithangelia6561
    @yogawithangelia6561 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thank you both

  • @ravenstylea2
    @ravenstylea2 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    great video!

  • @angelak8681
    @angelak8681 4 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    THANK YOU for making these videos, not everyone can afford a PT. Excellent advice, the first one is a strengthening exercise for back and shoulders also. I couldn't move my arm even half inch in any direction. Lost 2 weeks work. I did these as much and as far as my shoulder would allow me and ice and heat and ice ...over and over again. I couldn't take ibuprofen, I used topical arnica gel for inflammation. Also want to say ...just because it feels better don't get overconfident ...keep doing these because 1 false move and it could be worse, talking from experience here not a doctor. You guys are funny also js.

  • @alzmanfield3659
    @alzmanfield3659 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Great stuff guys, very informative.. I will apply exercises in my daily routine

  • @username8957
    @username8957 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Funny & informative. Thank you

  • @bunnykinsswanson
    @bunnykinsswanson 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thank you this is really useful!

  • @lilmizj9685
    @lilmizj9685 4 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Wow I tried this 1st time and its helped so much already! Thank u guys!!

    • @BobandBrad
      @BobandBrad  4 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Great to hear!

  • @TechTalkAmerica
    @TechTalkAmerica ปีที่แล้ว

    You guys are awesome.

  • @sophiesmom1074
    @sophiesmom1074 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Good advice given in a down-to-earth manner. :-)

  • @jackuber7358
    @jackuber7358 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    My wife is a super big fan of yours. I have had a flare-up a couple weeks ago after some yard work. She said you guys had the answer.

  • @frankcard9461
    @frankcard9461 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    I do not have words to express you all my gratitude; I was suffering too much and the pain was reaching my hand and my fingers; In just a few days I feel so much better; My physiotherapist never mentioned those excersices to me; Thanks again!!!

  • @dickylee12
    @dickylee12 6 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    I got a kick out of that you guys are good together very interesting video.

  • @christianfurin3766
    @christianfurin3766 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I have been dealing with shoulder problems for 20 years and now have had 2 x Total Shoulder Replacement surgeries. These guys are the best I have seen online and the most helpful in freeing a frozen shoulder which can be very painful. Thank you!

  • @3wisdom6eternal72
    @3wisdom6eternal72 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    You Guys are amazing

  • @shaunduncan8332
    @shaunduncan8332 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thanks guys

  • @pouringwithrobyn4365
    @pouringwithrobyn4365 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Thank you 😊

  • @TeresaMayMack
    @TeresaMayMack 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Thank you

  • @neelampanjwani88
    @neelampanjwani88 25 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Thanks a lot ❤

  • @nipinkv2529
    @nipinkv2529 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thanks.. Its really effective ❤️✌️

  • @hamishroxburgh3026
    @hamishroxburgh3026 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thank you.

  • @noemevelarde1110
    @noemevelarde1110 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thanks Bob and Brad❤️😍😃Really appreciate ur videos, very helpful and u both very funny too😍😃👍👏

  • @david01879
    @david01879 5 ปีที่แล้ว +32

    These are good exercises. I have also found that laying on my back and also on my stomach in a "hands up" position helps to stretch the shoulder. It was incredibly painful at first, but the longer I did it the shoulder pain got better.

    • @Moebeastz
      @Moebeastz ปีที่แล้ว

      This also help me a lot also

    • @tysonb3568
      @tysonb3568 ปีที่แล้ว

      Thanks for the tip!

  • @micklovin9836
    @micklovin9836 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    That intro song immediately won me over

  • @innerbeautyjewelry
    @innerbeautyjewelry 5 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    Thank you!! My shoulder pain is nearly gone after doing these exercises for just a couple of days. Thank you.

  • @ElisandroDeLeon
    @ElisandroDeLeon 5 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    The Burt and Ernie of PT

  • @imaginnne13
    @imaginnne13 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    Haha you guys are an adorable duo! Thanks for the tips! Just got this flared up the last few weeks for the first time in my life and I am a very active person and a busy mom of young kids needing relief ASAP! I will implement these and see how I do! Thanks a lot for sharing your expertise :)

    • @BobandBrad
      @BobandBrad  11 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      You got this!

  • @pennyyeomans4115
    @pennyyeomans4115 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thank-you

  • @ScottCommon632
    @ScottCommon632 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    oh my thank you I just realized I'm sitting at my desk for days on end, hunched over, causing my shoulder, impingement and even though I'm stretching, I'm not stretching near enough not even close nor strengthening the opposing muscles. Thank you Bob and Brad again for all your work. God bless you both.

    • @Sodainspace
      @Sodainspace ปีที่แล้ว

      I have the same problem, few hours on the desk and my shoulder blade is finished. Severe pain all the way to my arms. Need to work on strengthening

  • @alyssacifuentes580
    @alyssacifuentes580 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Love ,love, love you

  • @cpuma1
    @cpuma1 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Thank you! These exercises are helping me already. You guys are awesome, and now my 9-year old niece sings the "Bob and Brad" song-LOL!

  • @sandibeach7291
    @sandibeach7291 ปีที่แล้ว

    I love you guys.

  • @andijw79
    @andijw79 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    You guy's are absolute legends and could listen to you for days. I'm from England but you two should have your own TV show

    • @BobandBrad
      @BobandBrad  2 ปีที่แล้ว

      Thanks for the kind words!

  • @danielholmes9928
    @danielholmes9928 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thanks

  • @KapitalP73
    @KapitalP73 11 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I did these for one day and got instant relief!

  • @cameronaezi_7840
    @cameronaezi_7840 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    thankyou guys for the helpful tips. have had bursitis for some time now and i really find relief in these stretches

  • @Anthony-uu6fe
    @Anthony-uu6fe 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Great video. I saw my physician and he diagnosed me with subacromial and deltoid bursitis. I think they're helping! Will the exercises in this video also help with the area between the bicep and shoulder (above the armpit area)? Or are there different exercises for this area?

  • @georged7141
    @georged7141 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Hello and congratulations on your excellent work and help! Thank you! Could you please tell me if ice therapy would help for shoulder bursitis after these exercises?

  • @ericbilly
    @ericbilly 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    i got into an alectrical apprenticeship last year at age 34 and wrecked my shoulder after 9 hours of pulling pallets one day. my recovery plateaued and im scared ill ive with this pain for the rest of my life and that it will cost me my career and my future in the trade. the doctor my work sent me too never even diagnosed me and gave me one unhelpful exercise. Im going to try the exercises in this video, and the comments give me some faith. also you guys have hilarious rapport; im reminded a bit of the old radio show car talk or something

  • @joannekibble7194
    @joannekibble7194 4 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Thank you so much for this. I've been I'm absolute agony with my shoulder for months, and just this wk diagnosed with bursitis. I can barely move my arm and the pain during the night has been horrendous. I did the first exercise in this video, as atm I'm unable to do the others.,but I already feel a huge difference. It was almost instant. I'm still unable to use my arm due to pain and weakness, but any relief is so so very much appreciated ❤️ Thank you

    • @BobandBrad
      @BobandBrad  4 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Glad it helped!

    • @joannekibble7194
      @joannekibble7194 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @BobandBrad yes, its definitely reduced the intense pain. I just wished I could get the strength and mobility back in my arm. I'm left handed, and it's my left shoulder (typically) life's a real struggle at present, more the pain than the mobility, as its amazing what we adapt to. I'm just concerned about the loss of muscle movement long term. I've never had much upper body strength or muscle tone, which clearly contributed to the predicament I'm in now,
      So I'm guessing that's why I'm struggling so much to regain motion. As yet, I can just about touch my chin and move my arm about 5 inch from my body(away from the hip) but that's about it. If I try to force it. ,the pain becomes unbelievable again. I'm seeing a physio in a few wks, but in the meantime, I wonder how I can help myself in the recovery process? Without hindering any progress..
      Any ideas would b greatly appreciate 🙏

  • @hellegylling2514
    @hellegylling2514 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Hard to believe, but those little exercises made a substantial improvement in my bursitis pain!!! The pain had been getting worse every day and my range of motion smaller and smaller and I was in a lot of pain. I did these 3 exercises, and the sharp pain disappeared. There is still significant pain, but it is now tolerable as long as I am careful - and my range of motion has increased by about 30%. Before, but buckling my seat belt was really difficult, now it is okay as long as I move slowly. Amazing, thanks so much, guys :)

    • @hellegylling2514
      @hellegylling2514 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Just wanted to update. It has now been almost 48 hours since I first started doing these exercises and the improvement is phenomenal! I do these exercises and another one from one of their other videos about every hour. Totally impressive. Huge improvement in both pain and range of motion. You guys are the best. Thanks so much for providing this for free :)

    • @fj5434
      @fj5434 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Thanks for sharing the experience, I will try too

  • @bluesfan6862
    @bluesfan6862 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    For about the past month and a half I have been having shoulder pain. I lift weights 5 days a week and do push/pull/rest split. Ive been having pain in any kind of shoulder press or chest press exercise. The pain is coming from the top of my shoulder, almost near my trap. I do have rounded shoulders(I will fix that now), and when I shrug my shoulder forward I feel sharp pain. I have no pain when doing delt flys, or anything like you did with the green dumbell in the vid. Hopefully fixing my posture will solve my problem. Thanks for the video.

  • @Armenian
    @Armenian 7 ปีที่แล้ว +15

    Thanks for the video. I really need to do more of these 3 exercises as I have popping and cracking noises coming from my shoulders when I rotate them after having completed a year of padwork at Muay Thai classes.

    • @marcelsoleimani7813
      @marcelsoleimani7813 7 ปีที่แล้ว

      Could you guys please help me diagnosis my shoulder pain? Either message me directly on youtube or just reply to this message

    • @anitachang2035
      @anitachang2035 7 ปีที่แล้ว

      physicaltherapyvideo u

    • @PrimeTime23
      @PrimeTime23 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@marcelsoleimani7813 did you figure out if you had this issue?

  • @brendabooprather
    @brendabooprather 6 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Is it possible for shoulder bursitis to start around the elbow? That's seems to be where it hurt the most when this started, but now it's my whole arm. Been feeling like this for about a month. Thanks guys :-)

  • @roonzacar7276
    @roonzacar7276 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thank you for your quick response. I've had bursitis for almost a year, which of ice, heat or massage would be most beneficial? Also why is it that unless I'm stretching or exercising that my shoulders hurt? It's like unless there is constant blood supply they seize up. Lastly are there any weight training exercises that help shoulder bursitis, I try chin ups but it results in great pain, I use to do dozens of them a workout before the bursitis. Thank you for all your videos from your latest subscriber.

  • @jackiejames6510
    @jackiejames6510 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    U guys are funny but informative

  • @fuyou1999
    @fuyou1999 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Turmeric curcumin ! Anti-inflammatory SPICE! Works for enlarged prostates like a dream!!!!!! You can get at Walmart for about 4.50$! I take this plus boswellia and moringa oleifer all three are at Walmart spring valley brand...been taking these three every morning!!!! Big health difference!!!!!!

  • @peterjohnson1332
    @peterjohnson1332 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thoracic mobilization is crucial. If the thoracic spine is tight you will be internally rotating at the shoulders ie out of alignment so will have impingment issues.

  • @gracie4603
    @gracie4603 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I am tempted to try these exercises. Does shoulder bursitis also include having a tingling sensation in the hands?

  • @ankitaupadhyay007
    @ankitaupadhyay007 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    I am a software engineer from India. Thanks for the exercises. It helped me a lot. I have a question. Why my right shoulder clicks and I have problem in rotating it and touching my back. While with left shoulder I can do it easily. I have seen many docs did xrays but didn't find solution. Pain goes away and comes back after few months

  • @Hummel5006
    @Hummel5006 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    Hi gentleman! Just got diagnosed with this by an orthopedic surgeon. In addition to these daily exercises, what all movements in the gym should I avoid? It seems any overhead presses and normal bench presses irritate it. Can I still do other upper body movements while healing?

  • @cartercoleman
    @cartercoleman 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    Please show us some safe shoulder strengthening exercises. Is there a safe way to to military press?

  • @marinapilipovic4600
    @marinapilipovic4600 7 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Hello Bob and Brad! :) You are really the best PT on internet, with very helpful advices.
    I came across your channel spontaneously, when I searched for useful exercises and stretches for my friend who has problem with her shoulders. It all started as a result of an accident of bad stretching her left shoulder. Before 2 years, she was diagnosed with calcification in that shoulder, and now it seems the same is happening with other shoulder, too. Left is ok now, and because of frozen shoulder syndrom she start with exercises and with small steps there is a great progress in mobility. Also, every day I massaging all tendor spots. Her other, right shoulder, hurts at that bursa spot, on touch or move. She can't sleep at night because of that. Before a few days she could do some exercises.. We will try for these, I really hope it will help. Maybe there is also a problem with bicep. Do you recommend any covering, heat or cold? Cross your fingers for her, I want to help as soon as possible to release that awful pain. Thank You soo much! Many regards from Croatia, M&D!

    • @marinapilipovic4600
      @marinapilipovic4600 7 ปีที่แล้ว

      Thank You very much! It means a lot.

    • @marinapilipovic4600
      @marinapilipovic4600 7 ปีที่แล้ว

      She already tried and likes it! :) With a little help she can do all of them.
      We put a cold covering every few hours on shoulder in pain, it helps. It is sensitive on any move and pain is all over shoulder, forward, behind, on the side... Tomorrow she will see phisycal therapist and hope for quick recovery, so she can exercise that arm, too. At the night, she put a colding balsam, and it is ok for same short period, but then start to hurt and she can't sleep. She put a pillow to try relax arm, but it is difficult. Any Advise for better sleep?
      *Can you do a video about Calcific tendonitis, please.
      Without operation. What to do to help with pain, how to treat it, exercise and more.
      Thank you!
      Keep up with awesome work, you help to many people!
      Best regards and have a nice day,
      M&D.

  • @TinekeWilliams
    @TinekeWilliams 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Going to do those exercises as I get a horrible burn pain between my shoulder blades. probably left over from all the computer work I did before I retired.

  • @RobynKnipe
    @RobynKnipe 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thank you so much l have trouble with my shoulder same problem driving me crazy cortisone injection didn't work u have given me hope with triplets l Carnt be like this 😁

  • @roonzacar7276
    @roonzacar7276 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thanks for your wishes but you may have missed my question, in particular given that I've had the bursitis for a while, which of heat or ice would help with recovery? Also the exercises are great but once my shoulders are inactive as when I'm asleep or sitting for a while and then try and lift my arms above my shoulders I feel sharp pain.

  • @garethmacginty2194
    @garethmacginty2194 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    Bob and Brad thank you. I have had this shoulder issue for so long and did the streches once and it feels like I never had it. I know it will take some
    Time to get back to full stenght but thank you.

  • @lees9828
    @lees9828 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    Silly question: Can the pushing down on the counter exercise be done with both arms at the same time without losing it's effectiveness? Thanks!

  • @marlenekerrmarlene1259
    @marlenekerrmarlene1259 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    enjoy you guys -my shoulders hurt like heck should we do these for a shoulder tears???? just had 2 cortesone shots in bothshoulders but did not help- any help at all= as I waited for years and do not think I could even do surgery anymore?/ thanks M

  • @presa609
    @presa609 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    Can you please add elastic band exercises to this video? They are very affordable on those auction sites.

  • @edchapman5801
    @edchapman5801 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Would it be effective to do this first exercise while walking, because I have a big forward lean. Thanks

  • @stephenlane5467
    @stephenlane5467 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Any idea how long doing these exercises might take to work? I know there's no answer, but would love to know if after a week or a month and it hasn't improved that this hasn't. i.e. general range