Do note that the Grenades strategem has to be used before the acting unit shoots, not after. So it is less "take out the last few wounds," and more "soften up the target ahead of shooting."
The only alternative to Fire Dragons for taking down a C'tan is the Firestorm grav tank, which is still in Legends. Its got Anti-Fly 2+, in which its S5 0AP D1 weapon profile is minimally affected when shooting at C'tans, (whose Armor save is equal to their Invulnerable save). Its also got a situational Overwatch effect, but that might come up if different C'tans or other flyers are close enough Though yeah, its a Legends unit, so being able to deploy it is up to your opponent
The fact that C'tans can teleport is crazy. I will attempt to take them down with some wraithguard and fire prisms. I haven't tried wraithguard after nerfs so that would be a nice test for them. You definitely sold me on fire dragons though so I'll give them a try.
Quality video once more master Proxy. Will run a variation of my tank list this week end and will let you know how it went. I will add some 10 wraithblades, there is play there.
Fire Dragons have always been badass'. Not that I will be playing anytime soon, but it's nice to know that my Fuegan and the 15 Fire Dragons I have will be able to wreck face. 😛
Love how fire dragons look but their biggest weakness is them being finecast and Fuegan being unable to buy 😂. Seems like all of the possibilities for new eldar kits are just can we get what units are in our index/codex and be able to get them not in finecast or even get them at all.
I know man I’m hoping out full range will be updated in about 1 years time, you can always get the metal ones pretty cheap on eBay but fuegan is another story…I would look into 3D printing/ 3rd party
I use the Artel W "Flaming Drakes" as proxies. And honestly they're amazing. Yeah, i cant play in tournaments with them and whatnot but like i care in the first place.
Wraithguard do roughly 3 to 5 damage to a C'tan on average. Wraithguard have about a 0,5% chance of destroying a C'Tan in a single activation. Wraithguard don't counter C'tan, C'tan counter Wraithguard. Leave Wraithguard at home when C'tan but no monolith is expected.
@@ProxyHammer1 Warp Spiders may be the best answer to C'Tan. Don't know how our math hammer disagrees but 10 warp spiders (230 points) should perform roughly as well as Fire Dragon/Fuegan/Falcon combo (340 points) and Wraithguard (445 points). Roughly 85% chance to deal at least 2 damage, roughly 50% chance to deal at least 4-5 damage, almost 0% chance to deal 12 damage. Fire Dragon and Falcon combo does make grenades and tank shock available, assuming command points are available. Should be able to cause a few mortal wounds. I don't think Eldar have a great answer to C'Tan. 1 or 3 damage devastating wounds may be best fit. Avatar/Yncarne typically get to beat a C'Tan if they get to charge and C'Tan is a bit weakened.
Yes we dont have a great answer that is true, I think my main issue with the spider 10 pack is its based purely on D wounds to proc on 6's which is extremely swingy in my experiance. @@Involution88
@@ProxyHammer1 Yes. It is swingy. About 92% chance for two 6s to wound from squad of 10 warp spiders. Drops rapidly from there, about 5/6 chance for 3. Difficult to get to 12. Shoot longer ranged weapons last (except Falcon) and underestimate expected damage to correct for swingyness. Pseudo save scum a bit, not all attacks for all units have to be declared at the same time. Overkill is rarely a worse problem than underkill.
Teen Pyst always wondered why, (3rd edition) lore wise, guardians didn't have fusion guns as standard arms since (at the time) other than number of shots, they were same range, assault etc profile but better ap than the catapults.
Just going over the math in my head, I don't think you even come close to one tapping a C'than without Eldrad (that may boost it somewhat). Fuegan does like an average of 2 wounds and he deals the most damage by quite a bit (you may be able to get like 7 wounds on average with the whole squad). That being said it really comes down to invuln saves and Eldrad + grenade strat may push it to kill one on average (don't have time now to do all the math).
I was also accounting for the Falcon and a Fate dice which brought it up to 11. Eldrad and the Grenade strat clinch it at the end. I know it’s a big investment but Ctans are really really tough and they regenerate if you don’t one round them.
@@ProxyHammer1 hmm yeah I'll go over it once i got a bit of time. You are probably right that this is one of the more 'efficient' ways to kill ctan shards though. They are just undercosted right now so almost no faction can kill them efficiently sadly. Melta goes a long way though and aeldari certainly have some of the better mass melta.
Ya true, the general "math" i did in my head looked good and considering dragons are so efficient im thinking they are going to be a decent answer but truly even then its swingy...@@theStamax
In the Rules Commentary 1.2 “Damage Characteristic: Where a Damage characteristic includes an operator (e.g. a ‘+’, as in D6+1), the value after the operator is part of that Damage characteristic - it is not a modifier.” Would this mean the melta damage from the fire dragons is halved for the ctan? (D6+3)/2 instead of the pre 30.01.2024 rules of (D6/2)+3
Melta is not considered an operator though as it modifies the damage roll conditionally it is not part of the original calculation I believe. If not though I'll definitely revise my statements!
Originally that’s how I’ve seen it played, but it’s confusing for me. Food for thought, under the melta ruling example it states melta 2 becomes (d6+2) damaged characteristic
Could a Crimson Hunter have a place in the combo? Against a C'tan shard both lances hit and wound on 2+, and the three pulse laser shots wound on 4+ instead of 5+. Only issue I see is the Hunter would probably also die with the Fire Dragons next turn. If your Crimson Hunter is going to trade itself anyway, maybe helping take down a shard is worth it?
What about 10 guided hawks phishing for 6es? Together with the grenades it should do some good dmg to ctan. Edit: Just did the math, it is "just" about 8 wounds.
So apparently in the first cautious look at the current meta Eldar have gone from first to dead last, at the moment at about a 43% winrate... thoughts?
I indeed saw that, my first thoughts are a lot of people are not fully transitioned to new builds but I think we will have to wait a few more weeks to see 🫤 if we stay that way we will no doubt see some things rolled back in the next patch
@@ProxyHammer1 rolled 2 ones on damage and reroll to 5 and 6 on this dragons) ye, thats eas epic. Dragons are true heroes of eldar army. Now i want to run 2 falcons, 1 with fyegan and dragons, secord with eldrad, warlocks and death jester. But mrta change took off my wish to play big 40k( Phantasm nerf hert so much
The more i play i miss phantasm but if you dont consider it in the list building process it becomes apparent that the eldar are still very good even without it.@@isydust3164
Well, the flamer is the actual meme of the Eldar Codex. There is no model for the flamer. It would have to be proxied and it's never really been good. I think I've only used it once. Since there is no model for the flamer, and the fire dragons are a bit older now, you can see what a joke this weapon is. By the way, I recommend w-artel for fire dragons. They look very smart and they are available with helens without and in male and female the exarch looks good too. By the time gw renews this aspect, the models could be 40. Mine are still made of pewter. Algerythmus comment (since I have nothing really clever to contribute)
So what is Eldrad just running after the falcon on foot? A good player will keep their Ctan away from the dragons so you might have to hunt it down can eldrad keep up without being killed
couple things im confused on. first, dont you have to do grenades first as it says in the strategem to target one unit from your army that is not within engagement range and has not been selected to shoot this phase? also, how do you get 5 dragons, fuegan and eldrad all in a falcon that can only transport 6 models?
I have been wondering about the best loadout fro FDs too and I think that 10 FDs plus Fuegan in serpent are better than 5 in Falcon plus Fuegan. You lose the wounds reroll but gain 5 more shots and a big unit benefits more from Fuegan buff. And more grenades. And the differenze Is only 60 pts... What do you think?
It's definitely interesting, the only issue I see is that 10 dragons really are inefficient against other targets you might come across outside of necrons. Even so i think serpents are a good idea as well for those extra mortal wounds
@@ProxyHammer1 the point is that the difference Is only 60pts which Is really small. And you could always give the exarch a breath flamer to male the unite multipurpose. Or break the unit into two 5men squads so you can double the grenades
Well you couldnt do double grenades but you could do a tank shock and grenade which is pretty strong, the only think is you also lose on the falcons shooting which is superb! its a good idea i can see people running for sure!@@andreabaldo8558
No they didn't. They clarified that things like the +2 damage on Brightlances are part of the damage profile and not a modifier. Melta is absolutely a modifier and is applied AFTER damage halving/reduced to zero.
@@thetimebinder fair enough, I feel that's what they intended but I stand corrected. Glad I've just finished building my skathach knight. Say goodbye ctans.
I've just checked the app, I can't see the wording on the ctan but assuming it's like the avatar then I would say it does reduce it. Melta 2 "increase damage characteristic by 2" avatar "half damage characteristic". I feel that's pretty clear.
Do note that the Grenades strategem has to be used before the acting unit shoots, not after. So it is less "take out the last few wounds," and more "soften up the target ahead of shooting."
Very true! Tyvm for that correction!
Just remember you need to use grenades on a unit that hasn't shot yet (but can still shoot afterwards).
Very true! Thank you for that note!
Fire dragons + a death jester right over watching them have been working wonders for me
Nice dude! Love it!
If you need few damages to finish the job, a tank shock with the falcon can make it ! 😉
Dude you are absolutely right!! Forgot about that one 😉 might even be better!
The only alternative to Fire Dragons for taking down a C'tan is the Firestorm grav tank, which is still in Legends. Its got Anti-Fly 2+, in which its S5 0AP D1 weapon profile is minimally affected when shooting at C'tans, (whose Armor save is equal to their Invulnerable save). Its also got a situational Overwatch effect, but that might come up if different C'tans or other flyers are close enough
Though yeah, its a Legends unit, so being able to deploy it is up to your opponent
Dude I totally forgot about the FireStorm!! Dude that thing is my favorite legend unit!! Haha 😂 epic!
The fact that C'tans can teleport is crazy. I will attempt to take them down with some wraithguard and fire prisms. I haven't tried wraithguard after nerfs so that would be a nice test for them. You definitely sold me on fire dragons though so I'll give them a try.
Wraithguard with guide will probably be able to kill one if you get enough D wounds! Prisms are very unreliable against them 🫤
Last game I killed the ctan shard with 10 wraithguard, shots from a shroud runner unit giving lethal as well.
Nice thats hot rolling i like it!
Quality video once more master Proxy. Will run a variation of my tank list this week end and will let you know how it went. I will add some 10 wraithblades, there is play there.
Nice dude snd thanks! Definitely fill me in on how it goes!
Fire Dragons have always been badass'.
Not that I will be playing anytime soon, but it's nice to know that my Fuegan and the 15 Fire Dragons I have will be able to wreck face. 😛
Nice dude I know! Love my Fire Dragons!
Love how fire dragons look but their biggest weakness is them being finecast and Fuegan being unable to buy 😂. Seems like all of the possibilities for new eldar kits are just can we get what units are in our index/codex and be able to get them not in finecast or even get them at all.
I know man I’m hoping out full range will be updated in about 1 years time, you can always get the metal ones pretty cheap on eBay but fuegan is another story…I would look into 3D printing/ 3rd party
I use the Artel W "Flaming Drakes" as proxies. And honestly they're amazing.
Yeah, i cant play in tournaments with them and whatnot but like i care in the first place.
For sure!@@TheIronHordesman2
Can Tank shock with the falcon as well
Good catch!!
Nice video, going to test it this this weekend at a little tournament (but without Fuegan :/)
Definitely bring Eldrad and some hawks in to finish the C’Tan off then!
I was thinking a couple crimson hunters would be great into necrons right now since c'tan, arks, and wraiths all have fly
They would much easier but its hard to get the damage through that invul and Fnp+half damage
Wraithguard do roughly 3 to 5 damage to a C'tan on average. Wraithguard have about a 0,5% chance of destroying a C'Tan in a single activation. Wraithguard don't counter C'tan, C'tan counter Wraithguard. Leave Wraithguard at home when C'tan but no monolith is expected.
Wow that’s even worse than I thought, that FM nerf hit them hard
@@ProxyHammer1 Warp Spiders may be the best answer to C'Tan. Don't know how our math hammer disagrees but 10 warp spiders (230 points) should perform roughly as well as Fire Dragon/Fuegan/Falcon combo (340 points) and Wraithguard (445 points). Roughly 85% chance to deal at least 2 damage, roughly 50% chance to deal at least 4-5 damage, almost 0% chance to deal 12 damage.
Fire Dragon and Falcon combo does make grenades and tank shock available, assuming command points are available. Should be able to cause a few mortal wounds.
I don't think Eldar have a great answer to C'Tan. 1 or 3 damage devastating wounds may be best fit. Avatar/Yncarne typically get to beat a C'Tan if they get to charge and C'Tan is a bit weakened.
Yes we dont have a great answer that is true, I think my main issue with the spider 10 pack is its based purely on D wounds to proc on 6's which is extremely swingy in my experiance. @@Involution88
@@ProxyHammer1 Yes. It is swingy. About 92% chance for two 6s to wound from squad of 10 warp spiders. Drops rapidly from there, about 5/6 chance for 3. Difficult to get to 12. Shoot longer ranged weapons last (except Falcon) and underestimate expected damage to correct for swingyness. Pseudo save scum a bit, not all attacks for all units have to be declared at the same time. Overkill is rarely a worse problem than underkill.
@@Involution88 overkill always! Especially Vs 4++ and 5+ FnP
Teen Pyst always wondered why, (3rd edition) lore wise, guardians didn't have fusion guns as standard arms since (at the time) other than number of shots, they were same range, assault etc profile but better ap than the catapults.
I wondered the same thing!
Storm guardians have a pair! (in more ways than one)
Yes they do!!@@MrGenerichead
Just going over the math in my head, I don't think you even come close to one tapping a C'than without Eldrad (that may boost it somewhat). Fuegan does like an average of 2 wounds and he deals the most damage by quite a bit (you may be able to get like 7 wounds on average with the whole squad). That being said it really comes down to invuln saves and Eldrad + grenade strat may push it to kill one on average (don't have time now to do all the math).
I was also accounting for the Falcon and a Fate dice which brought it up to 11. Eldrad and the Grenade strat clinch it at the end. I know it’s a big investment but Ctans are really really tough and they regenerate if you don’t one round them.
@@ProxyHammer1 hmm yeah I'll go over it once i got a bit of time.
You are probably right that this is one of the more 'efficient' ways to kill ctan shards though. They are just undercosted right now so almost no faction can kill them efficiently sadly.
Melta goes a long way though and aeldari certainly have some of the better mass melta.
Ya true, the general "math" i did in my head looked good and considering dragons are so efficient im thinking they are going to be a decent answer but truly even then its swingy...@@theStamax
In the Rules Commentary 1.2 “Damage Characteristic: Where a Damage characteristic includes an operator (e.g. a ‘+’, as in D6+1), the value after the operator is part of that Damage characteristic - it is not a modifier.”
Would this mean the melta damage from the fire dragons is halved for the ctan? (D6+3)/2 instead of the pre 30.01.2024 rules of (D6/2)+3
Melta is not considered an operator though as it modifies the damage roll conditionally it is not part of the original calculation I believe. If not though I'll definitely revise my statements!
Pretty sure they did indeed say melta would apply after half damage in tge rules commentaryb it's one of the best things about melta currently.
thats what i thought!@@DOALGruleslawyer
Originally that’s how I’ve seen it played, but it’s confusing for me. Food for thought, under the melta ruling example it states melta 2 becomes (d6+2) damaged characteristic
@@andrewsherman983 I think it’s because melta “modifies” and doesn’t “replace”
There is one problem: getting one of the older phoenix lords. Still searching for Karandras or Fuegan mini.
I totally feel you man 😔
Look for alternative models, got one and he looks awesome
@@oliverheinzen5366 they do!
Could a Crimson Hunter have a place in the combo? Against a C'tan shard both lances hit and wound on 2+, and the three pulse laser shots wound on 4+ instead of 5+. Only issue I see is the Hunter would probably also die with the Fire Dragons next turn. If your Crimson Hunter is going to trade itself anyway, maybe helping take down a shard is worth it?
I think if you are already running a CH the best target for it is the Ctan for sure. However even so you may be luck to get 4-6 damage out of it
What about 10 guided hawks phishing for 6es? Together with the grenades it should do some good dmg to ctan. Edit: Just did the math, it is "just" about 8 wounds.
It’s very good for finishing off units or dealing with light infantry
So apparently in the first cautious look at the current meta Eldar have gone from first to dead last, at the moment at about a 43% winrate... thoughts?
I indeed saw that, my first thoughts are a lot of people are not fully transitioned to new builds but I think we will have to wait a few more weeks to see 🫤 if we stay that way we will no doubt see some things rolled back in the next patch
I killed the void dragon with 5 dragons, falkon, sepnent shild and graned prom corsair unit)
Dude sweet!!! That is sick man!
@@ProxyHammer1 rolled 2 ones on damage and reroll to 5 and 6 on this dragons) ye, thats eas epic. Dragons are true heroes of eldar army.
Now i want to run 2 falcons, 1 with fyegan and dragons, secord with eldrad, warlocks and death jester. But mrta change took off my wish to play big 40k(
Phantasm nerf hert so much
The more i play i miss phantasm but if you dont consider it in the list building process it becomes apparent that the eldar are still very good even without it.@@isydust3164
Also thats Bad A dude! I love when that happens!@@isydust3164
Well, the flamer is the actual meme of the Eldar Codex. There is no model for the flamer. It would have to be proxied and it's never really been good. I think I've only used it once.
Since there is no model for the flamer, and the fire dragons are a bit older now, you can see what a joke this weapon is.
By the way, I recommend w-artel for fire dragons. They look very smart and they are available with helens without and in male and female the exarch looks good too. By the time gw renews this aspect, the models could be 40. Mine are still made of pewter.
Algerythmus comment (since I have nothing really clever to contribute)
Artel does make very good dragons! I’ve wanted a unit for a long time but never have taken the plunge! And yes…sadly the Flamer is a joke 😔
So what is Eldrad just running after the falcon on foot? A good player will keep their Ctan away from the dragons so you might have to hunt it down can eldrad keep up without being killed
Eldrad is in reserve typically. If the Ctan stays outside of the dragons threat range it means they are not on objectives so it’s a win win
couple things im confused on. first, dont you have to do grenades first as it says in the strategem to target one unit from your army that is not within engagement range and has not been selected to shoot this phase? also, how do you get 5 dragons, fuegan and eldrad all in a falcon that can only transport 6 models?
Eldrad is in reserve and comes in via another method. As for the grenades yes you do it before hand and that was my bad 🫤
@@ProxyHammer1 i like the avatar with a fate diced hit roll to help throw in a hand full of wounds too.
The avatar is great! Always very solid!@@robdillabough5428
I have been wondering about the best loadout fro FDs too and I think that 10 FDs plus Fuegan in serpent are better than 5 in Falcon plus Fuegan. You lose the wounds reroll but gain 5 more shots and a big unit benefits more from Fuegan buff. And more grenades. And the differenze Is only 60 pts... What do you think?
It's definitely interesting, the only issue I see is that 10 dragons really are inefficient against other targets you might come across outside of necrons. Even so i think serpents are a good idea as well for those extra mortal wounds
@@ProxyHammer1 the point is that the difference Is only 60pts which Is really small. And you could always give the exarch a breath flamer to male the unite multipurpose. Or break the unit into two 5men squads so you can double the grenades
Well you couldnt do double grenades but you could do a tank shock and grenade which is pretty strong, the only think is you also lose on the falcons shooting which is superb! its a good idea i can see people running for sure!@@andreabaldo8558
I tired but I just can’t listen to you say F-wAgan anymore lol
Shame man 😉
Hey they did clarify that half damage is after working out damage ie (d6+melta)/2 good video as always otherwise
Hmmm I’ve heard the opposite that half damage is before melta is applied. Did I read the clarification wrong?
No they didn't. They clarified that things like the +2 damage on Brightlances are part of the damage profile and not a modifier. Melta is absolutely a modifier and is applied AFTER damage halving/reduced to zero.
@@thetimebinder fair enough, I feel that's what they intended but I stand corrected. Glad I've just finished building my skathach knight. Say goodbye ctans.
I've just checked the app, I can't see the wording on the ctan but assuming it's like the avatar then I would say it does reduce it. Melta 2 "increase damage characteristic by 2" avatar "half damage characteristic".
I feel that's pretty clear.
@@nickbrooks7215 The Wraithknight slaps the shit out of them lol 😂