To be fair he didn’t stop WoT because it was confusing or complicated, but because he found every character to be unlikable, and for it to be full of cliches and tropes. So who knows this may be a different experience for him.
@@iSamwise no, he didmt like wheel of tome because he was sold that it was about men and woman and was so focused on the romantic angle that when that didnt hit it bothered him. I think he said that in one of the reviews after getting so stuck on the rough relationships between men and woman, essentially the way the theme was handled he didnt like it, and was sold something else
"You don't start with this book, this is not a beginner Fantasy story, you just won't enjoy it" Me, who hasn't read any series since Harry Potter ~20 years ago, who picked up GotM and fell instantly in love with the world and characters: Uh, fascinating.
I think one of the primary reasons that most people enjoy the reread so much more is that you're no longer comparing the book to your expectations of what it would or should be, you just accept what is being offered on its own merit.
It's probably more a justification of effort effect. Humans don't like to waste effort it's expensive evolutionarily. So when you do something that's difficult, even if the easier option is better in every way. We tend to tell ourselves that we like the hard option more. Cults making it hard to join them so that when you do, you never want to leave is the go-to example.
Here's the thing with Malazan: Erikson isn't going for Epic Fantasy; he's relating a history of nations. He isn't trying to push a button for an emotional response and that approach, for me, is more challenging and interesting than someone like Sanderson who works the reader toward a specific emotional response. It's easy to be spoon-fed, but Erikson doesn't let you off that easy. ;)
Really? One of the reasons I found Deadhouse Gates so grating is that the emotional moments felt spoon fed. I know what I was supposed to be feeling when reading Felisin's story. But that active knowledge of what Erikson is trying to do made it harder to care. In many ways I'd say telographing the emotional response he wants you to have is a major flaw in the writing.
I’m a horrible person, I read DHG first (I really wanted to read Erickson it was the only one on shelves) and it hooked me easy. Yeah, it’s difficult, lots of stuff whooshed right over me, but I was in the emotions the whole time. The stakes are high and gutting.
@@fojoMy main problem with Malazan is that I just can not get invested in any character because there are so many and Erikson keeps most of them so distant from you that they all blend together. I relate to them about as much as I would relate to people in a history book. I may empathise with their plight but it doesn't emotionally affect me. I knew that in theory the Chain of Dogs was tragic and full of pathos but I just didn't care enough about any character to illicit a strong emotional reaction. If Malazan had the character writing of ASoIaF or RotE it would probably be my favourite series because so many other things about it are brilliant.
Malazan is the Dark Souls or reading. Its hard unrelenting, and you have to be a certain kind of masochistic to love it.If you make that first connection and are hooked, there's no turning back, and it's hard to explain to casuals the full appeal.
I think it's really pathetic to call people "casuals" for not getting into a series. Yes, Malazan has a ton of great things about it but it also has a ton of issues. There are a lot of valid reasons to drop the series.
I believe it's called Gardens of the Moon because Apsalar tells Crokus about the under water gardens on the real moon (not moon spawn) and how the god up there will take choosen people and allow them to live on the moon in peace with no wars.
So much fun that you're picking up this book. I just started my first read of Crippled God (the tenth and last book of MBotF) and I'm just here to say that, although I loved your video, I feel Malazan really should be reviewed as a series. And yes, first time reading Gardens of the Moon is a rough landing. And yes, it takes some puzzling and concentration, but I think it does not do it justice. I think in terms of expectations it helps to read the series as a story about a changing world in turmoil from a lot of different perspectives, rather than what we're used to (stories about a group, a person or a nation). I think the qualities of the series are: 1. The overall plot (it is not just the Malazan empire stirring, all the Gods are stirring) 2. It's emotional moments (and yes they truly start in Deadhouse Gates) 3. Erikson's work on themes both at the personal as well as the societal level 4. The intricate world building, original races, magic system (5. oh and the humorous banter)
really great response and the advice i didnt know i needed. im half way through memories of ice and while i do like malazan and the world building, i find myself losing interest and patience with this series. it is the most difficult book i've ever read and i think it is because im trying to read it as a traditional fantasy story.
Love that you are trying Malazan! I struggled with the first book on my first try and didn't finish. Went back and got through it on the second try but didn't love it. However, by the end of the series it was easily my faviourite series of all time. Actually by the end of book 2 I knew that. I'm now enjoying a reread and it is truly a work of genius and it has ruined other fantasy for me. (Also, Gardens is an easy 5 stars on reread). Malazan combines all the best of fantasy - excellent prose, incredible world building, epic scale, over the top cool shit and incredibly poignant, moving moments and musings. Whilst I don't belive in reading something you're not enjoying, I will always encourage people to push on in Malazan because riches await the people who persevere.
It is so interesting how you view Tattersail. I saw her actions almost like using sex as a coping mechanism (without getting into spoilers on Tattersail and her life), rather than any true attraction. Similarly with Paran you say 'complete 180 of motivation' but we see very clearly from Page 1 that the rose-tinted glasses through which he viewed the Empire have been UTTERLY removed even before he ever meets Lorn. Tattersail's death is the final straw in a long, long list of things that have disillusioned Paran.
I think one of the main themes in Gardens of the Moon is duty. It feels prominent throughout, from a military perspective, to the divine and faith, but also to family, friends and the wider community.
I'm surprised caleb didn't go into a mental breakdown for trashing one of his favorite book so much. I think bringing guests that are familiar with the series while you guys review the first book is great
One thing I think you really have to accept with Malazan is that it's as if you're reading an entire body of mythology for a different world. Some stories and characters within that scope, you'll connect with more than others. Sometimes it's just Zeus turning into a bull and bedding a maiden. Sometimes it's the story of Jason and the Golden Fleece. What's hilarious (and true), is you have to read ALL 10 BOOKS to really "get" the series (no pressure). For what it's worth, the jump in quality from book 1 to book 2 is almost as big as Empire of Silence to Howling Dark. Hopefully you guys will continue the series and enjoy it more as you progress. You must meet Karsa Orlong. WItness!
So stoked for Rich to do book 2. Suffering through the first 70-80% is so normal. You both experienced this first one about as anyone should or could 😂😂 glad you both gave it a shot and I’m excited to see Rich’s future thoughts. Austin, I totally get not wanting to continue-hopefully Rich’s book two experience gets you back on board. For reference deadhouse gates is my all time number 1 book (of all I’ve read) and I’m 4 books in to the series. I didn’t understand anything going on in book 2 until the emotional notes clicked. After that, everything was easier to just follow. Trusting the author was a big thing for me to get over but once I just let go of the wheel it worked.
We’ve heard such great things about Deadhouse Gates, this is great to hear. And definitely, if book 2 clicks with Rich and he gets me to read, we’ll see how rest of this goes 🤝
@@myself2noone noooo I’m referring to trusting the author to deliver on their promises. And the thing with Erikson is he makes a lot but distinguishes them very subtly
I totally get where you're coming from with Gardens of the Moon. I struggled with it too at first, but I stuck with it, and now I'm on the sixth book, The Bonehunters. It's become my favorite series ever! I did some digging and found a few tricks that helped me really get into Malazan. Here are some tips that worked for me: 1. Enjoy the current scene: Trying to connect every scene to the bigger plot can be super confusing and frustrating. Instead, I started focusing on the current scene and enjoying Erikson's amazing prose and the vivid scene he creates. Trust that Erikson knows what he's doing - if you relax and just go with the flow, things will eventually click, and it’s always worth it. 2. Think of each scene as a short story: I learned from A Critical Dragon's channel that Erikson writes scenes like short stories, full of layers and meaning. When I read, I ask myself what the sentence or paragraph means and what else it could mean. This helps me go a few layers deeper and appreciate the story more. The puzzle building aspect of Malazan which fans love. 3. Use Malazwiki carefully: I use it sparingly to avoid spoilers. These tips have made my reading experience so much better and helped me fall in love with Malazan. Hope they help you too! Keep at it - the journey is incredible once you get into it!
Speaking to your first point, if you are meant to know something, Erikson WILL bring it up again. It's not the big stuff that's hidden, it's the subtle nods and details that make you realize that he was planting seeds for books 9 and 10 in books 1-3.
Thank you for being awesome. That rating joke of 2.5 vs 1.5 was really clever. This book I am rereading this multiple times, each time I am reading I am progressing little by little. It’s like Ground Hog day movie with the book.
Glad to see my goat get some love! It took me 4+ years to get through just Book of the Fallen. Key to getting through it all is long breaks between books.
You guys touched on it briefly but the fact that Erikson had this book written and tried to ship it around to different publishers for 7 years is actually really significant for understanding why so many people are telling you guys to read on. Book 2, Deadhouse Gates, is not only more enjoyable from a new-reader-whatthefuckisgoingon-perspective, it's also just a markedly huge improvement in writing quality and his skill as an author. Erikson was traditionally trained as a short-story writer, and that is where the massive number of POV characters and atypical characterization (atypical in the genre, at least) come into play. Each "scene" is just a piece of the whole and in some cases aren't even necessarily used to advance the plot but to brush on the thematic elements Erikson wants to bring. All that being said, Gardens is kind of an exercise in setting up traditional fantasy tropes and then dismantling them and knocking them down. Very heavily inspired by Dune, and The Black Company books by Glen Cook. Every book is an improvement on the previous one! hopefully when Rich continues on he can convince Austin to try Deadhouse Gates. Also - the community has been nothing but welcoming and warm towards me and others from my experience; I've found that the spaces specifically dedicated to Malazan fandom are generally great, and it's those broader communities that tend to grab the jerkoffs that can be "rabid". cheers!
First time fantasy readers seem to handle this better than experienced as I've encountered. From the simple fact of they have no expectations of what fantasy is so this becomes the baseline and instead of unlearning and readjusting it is just the norm. I'm in the literally middle as of last night on my GotM re-read and oh man does it feel so obvious and clear! Ha! Good Luck Y'all!
I'm more of a (60s-80s) science fiction/sci fantasy reader and I have been having a very easy time with Malazan! Those old books just drop you right in with hardly any context, either. Only difference is, a lot of those old books are 170 page standalones, while Malazan is a 10,000 page series. There is so much to explore here. I'm spoiled. I'm used to it being over in 200 pages or less. I'm already used to this 'just go with it' style. The presence with Erikson writes is exhilarating. This man knows how to write a tense scene. (Half way through Memories of Ice, for context). And the rest of my fantasy consumption has been mainly Tolkien, Dunsany, Abercrombie and Guy Gavriel Kay. Also SOME Tad Williams and Ken Liu, but I DNFed their series. So I agree. I'm jumping in without many preconceived notions of modern fantasy. The Malazan structure really does it for me!
@@willp2877 now you dropped the Dandelion Dynasty? that first book i didn’t like. been told to do book 2, but the first one was just non-stop chronicles, history book. spoiler GotM: oh he does and in GotM there is this internal monologue with whiskey jack where he bits his cheek to spit blood and says ‘there, not so hard to look at’ after he just contemplated the death of citizens and friends he’s about to order in darujistan.
I started Malazan just over 6 years ago as my first foray into fantasy. Needless to say, I gave up shortly into chapter 2. After reading at least 10 books a year (27 last year), I finally decided it was time to re-open Malazan and give it a shot. I found it confusing and chaotic, but once I just accepted that I won't know what is going on all of the time, take things scene by scene, and just decided to enjoy the ride, I ended up really enjoying it. After finishing Wheel of Time last year, I couldn't find a book series that peaked my interest in the same way until picking up Gardens of the Moon again.
Can't help feeling disappointment by your disappointment 😂 I loved this book so much - I was reading it and feeling "omg this is so cool" throughout. I didn't really expect a resolution given the long series. If you continue, I hope it ends up growing on you.
Tool is complex for people that scratch the surface when it comes to experimental/prog metal. Malazan is genuinely on of the most complex book series out there.
I think it's a side effect that occurs with any fan-base where the materiel is memetically difficult. A good portion of the fans get smug. However, Malazan is brilliant and who else are you gonna talk about it with? They're the only ones out there as crazy as you.
If you are looking for themes and theme-centered writing, Malazan is THE book for you. Especially in the second half the meta plot is honestly more interesting than the normal plot. But it is true that in Gardens of the Moon that is not that present yet.
I’m really disappointed that you two didn’t like this. I had a hard time when I first read this and dnf’d it about halfway through. Just didn’t have the mental energy and I was reading WOT at the time so it just didn’t work for me. But then I finished wheel of time, saw a few reviews for this series, decided on a whim to buy all the books and give GOTM another shot. I’m so glad that I did, because gardens of the moon is probably one of the best first books in the series I’ve ever read. It is crazy enjoyable that is both complex and rewarding. The complexity is overblown by a lot of people, and it’s actually fairly easy to put the pieces together once you get into it but it’s just such a good book. Think I ended giving it a 8.8/10. The second book, dead house gates is somehow even better and while I would normally recommend it if you like the first book, I just don’t know if you’re too gentlemen will be able to vibe with the is series. Very sad but that’s how it goes 🤷♂️
@@Izzyzilreads Have you ever interacted with fans of the game studio Fromsoftware? They make games such as Elden Ring and Dark Souls. Fromsoftware fans are literally Malazan fans, except their thing is video games rather than books
@@Izzyzilreads Yeah there are a lot of good things in both communities, but also a lot of bad eggs that neither fandom deserves. I'm not a fan of either, but I agree, I feel sorry for them because I respect both a lot
Imagine if you were appointed as Malazan Ambassador to 2ToRamble. What an honor. So much pressure. And then they don't even like the book. That would be wild...
I’ve never had a feeling of epicness on the level of this book. I love that I have no idea what is going on with the magic or gods. It’s like I’m slowly being exposed to this massive system and history.
Think it would be very fun to watch you have a discussion with the Jeff and Lana from DLC Bookclub. They are going through all the Malazan books of the main series and their experience of the first book was different.
I think my biggest disagreement comes with the shared opinion of the world depth 😬 I think that yes, it’s as WIDE as my aunt Susan, but also incredibly deep with reference to past gods, events, wars, like everything you could want. It’s just a LOT of deep.
Fair - we know it’s deep but just arent aware of the depth yet in a way. Im certain Erikson has a world as in depth as anyone out there, just we didnt get to feel as immersed, at least in book 1
i read malazan as one of my first fantasy reads and i honestly feel like that helped me with getting into the book/serires because i had no preconceived notions or ideas on how a fantasy series should flow or be structured. It really is one of those stories where you just have to trust the author knows what he's doing and trust in yourself that you'll piece it together as you go. because you will, it just takes time.
26:10 - 26:20 Lol, this bit of clarification reminds me of: 'The pellet with the poison's in the flagon with the dragon.' (100 points to anyone who gets that reference, likely no one. I'm a nerd.)
I had started this series sometime last year when I was starting a new job. I took one month to read just the first 100 pages. Eventually my job pressure was so high that I just couldn't concentrate on Malazan so I dropped it. Sometime next year I am planning to restart this series. Hopefully it goes better this time
Welcome to the party boys!! Read GOTM three times before I moved on the DG, which I read twice. Once I got to the end of DG, I felt aha, a bit. Anyway I haven't had the time to move forward, too many other commitments, but now appreciate it.
Thats one thing that might hold me back - Im not a rereader (even my favorite books ever) - I rarely go back to reread, and seems like Malazan might need that -A
I'm super curious, I've been tempted to buy the first book but I'm waiting for a calmer time in my tbr when I can just relax and enjoy the long journey of these books. I think I'll love them for everything that's been said. Next year will be WoT, starting January, so Malazan still has to wait a bit. Great episode! ✨
This world is alive. Reader's are thrown into the situation they don't understand. But the characters do, or atleast some of them. They don't get things explained, so you don't too. Events are happening outside the things you read about and a lot of the background is blurred, skewed by perspectives of POV's, because that's how history and time works.
Yeah, but the themes are explained to you like you're 5 years old on every page. A normal fantasy series does the opposite. The world building is obvious, but the theams need to be worked out. And I don't get the point of that. Aren't you bored by the same idea being repeated until you can slog through the ending? Whatever. I read for ideas and themes, not just world building. But I guess it's fair that you have a series that works for you the same way most others do for me.
I CANNOT WAIT for you to read book 2. Deadhouse Gates is where most readers find their footing in Malazan. One of the best storylines in the entire series.
Gardens of the Moon was a 5/5 for me, it's a bit batshit crazy but that's exactly what I was looking for when I picked it up. So many incredible scenes and Erikson's prose is so tight in this one.
I read gardens of the moon a week ago and loved it but I def think it’s a very hit or miss kind of book. I’m honestly a lil suprised he got a publisher on board with this book
I'm going to push back against Rich saying Malazan isn't the place to start. I'm probably in the very small minority that basically started with Malazan. My fantasy reading before Malazan was ASOIAF, Broken Empire, and Red Queen's War. Then I read Gardens and Malazan set the standard for fantasy for me. I've yet to find another series that comes close to it for me, years later.
I've tried lotr and wheel of time and hated them. I wrote off the whole genre since those were the giants of fantasy. Someone said Erikson is like Faulkner and dostoevsky and it got me to check it out. The series is some of my favorite books across all of literature and I don't even want to read any more fantasy if it's not like malazan!
Honestly, I've been making my way through the first book for WAY too long, and I realize I bought my fantasy presuppositions into reading this book: I HAD NO IDEA the gods were intervening until I watched this despite how obvious it is in retrospect. Not a spoiler, just a serious oversight on my part.
I like that you are reviewing this book. I'm curious as to how well Rich will like Deadhouse Gates. I was probably 3 or 4 out of 5 stars for Gardens of the Moon, mainly due to the fact I could see the awesome fantasy aspects in the worldbuilding, races/magic/battles/politics/etc. that it was a good balance out for my confusion as to what is happening. I've finished through book 6 and there's a lot of confusion still. I think it's because there's so much going on that I cannot keep track of it all.
I think I'm an oddity, but if push came to shove, I think my favorite is Midnight Tides (book 5) slightly edging out Memories of Ice (book 3) which slightly edges out House of Chains (book 4). What I'm finding, which can really impact a favorite, is that even though I'm confused on some things the layers of story and characters slowly come together and merge with some "AH HA!" type moments that are really cool when you connect A to B to C. My difficulty in moving forward is that these things are CHONKERS and the prose, while masterful, is very dense. You could easily miss something if not paying attention and so my mindset needs to be right before I dig into my next book, Reapers Gale.
I stopped reading halfway through the fourth book when I realised what he was doing. He has the whole story planned out and is giving it to you with lore in bits and pieces and pretending it’s clever. Most of his characters are poorly written and most of their motivations and conclusions come out of nowhere.
I struggled through Gotm and Dhg because i just didnt care about the majority of the characters. Ericksons writing style just feels so removed and clinical that i couldn't connect with a lot of them. A lot of elitests say the complexity is the issue for most people but I honestly think it's Erickson's writing style that people bounce off of.
Kruppe alone makes this book worth the price of admission 😂 Having only read the first two books, I’m going to go out on a limb and guess he’s waaaayy more powerful and crafty than we’ll ever realize…
I don't usually watch the spoiler part i haven't read the book. I've not read the series but I've been intrigued for a while. After watching the spoiler section and knowing that the next few books are completely different i don't feel spoiled at all I still have no idea if this series is for me.
I think Austin would really enjoy book 3, Memories of Ice, it feels very Stormlight and has some of the best action pieces in the series. It's also much more focused, where right from very early on you know what the endgame of this story is, that's not to say it's predictable, cuz it certainly isn't. It's also the point in the series where the themes start to really take the forefront, and during the emotional climax of the book, a character even just straight up gives Erikson's thesis statement for the entire series in what's quite possibly the most well-known quote in the series. It's also the only Malazan book to make me cry with full-on tears, and it did it twice, and I basically never cry when reading. Honestly, if you wanted to, you could just jump right into it right after GotM. It's a direct sequel to GotM and was actually intended to be the original second book in the series. Unfortunately, his file corrupted while he was writing it, so he decided to just jump into Deadhouse Gates instead. Some Malazan fans will crucify me, but I think the series has way better onboarding if you swap books 2 and 3. They take place roughly concurrently, and neither of them spoil the other and more than the other. Plus, I think Memories of Ice is much more indicative of the tone of the rest of the series than anything else in the first three books. I genuinely think y'all will love it, Memories of Ice is that one book in the series where basically everyone recognizes that it's one of if not the best in the series.
Woah that would be a strange reading order - you’re the first to suggest this! It goes against every natural inclination in our bodies, but is this how uou read it?
I've bounced off this book three or so times now, all very early on. Quite literally, I couldn't get past page one of the physical book (though I'm going to try that again because it was MMP and I hate(d) those), had no desire to pick it up again on ten or so pages into the ebook, and stopped 15 minutes into the audiobook. Going to listen to the video though and see if spoilers help here like they did in WoT. As a sidenote, I just read Will of the Many, it was so fun. I read it in a single day. Looking forward to your review.
I guess I’m 4 months late to the party. But I would like to come to defense of my boy Paran. I agree that his and tatersail’s relationship did feel rushed but I would like to push back on his reasoning for pursuing Lorn over high mage. This is my just interpretation but i believe his reasons for pursuing Lorn have to do a lot with Paran’s state of mind in this section of the story and the greater theme that is what it means to be someone else’s tool. Similarly to how Lorn is a tool for the Empress, Paran was a tool for Lorn. She kept him in the dark about her real intentions to release the Jag on darujhistan. Had Paran not been killed by Sorry, he would have been left to die in the city with bridgeburners and I believe in this section of the story Paran mentions this as well. Paran speaks often about being denied his just due. He was promised by Lorn that he would be given the opportunity to kill Sorry without ever fully understanding what that meant. That Sorry was possessed by the rope and he never really would have stood a chance at killing her. When he was resurrected by Oppon he became a tool of the gods. Paran was frustrated. He felt his life wasn’t his own. He was made twice a tool. Paran in my interpretation was fighting to gain back his own autonomy and the fact that Lorn played a small role in tatersails death was just a cherry on top. It made the conclusion for his story arc more ironic bc again he was denied. Lorn was killed by someone else reiterating again to him that he just player in someone else’s game. What he wants doesn’t matter. It was super symbolic that he took up Lorns Anti magic sword in the end really closing the circle. Paran a tool of Lorn and of the Gods picked the sword of another tool. A sword that I suspect given its properties will help fight back against his fate of being a tool to people more powerful than him.
I enjoyed reminiscing about GotM with this podcast, even though you guys were haters. 😂 I can't believe it's been almost 4 years since I read this book! It's almost time for a re-read. I bet I will understand everything!
If you're looking for a complex multi-POV book that tells some very interesting stories along a central theme/throughline I would HIGHLY recommend Adrian Tchaikovsky's City of Last Chances. Lots of people describe it as a "fantasy version of Les Miz"
Just finished the First ten books in the malazan series. Absolutely worth the read!! Also concerning your comment on Paran taking revenge on Tayschrenn, it makes absolutely no sense for the events because Tayschrenn is a High Mage. Paran would be killed before he could even dream of revenge. But Lorn was a skilled swordswoman at best, and Paran decided she was a much easier target than a frigging High Mage. So yeah, going after Lorn was the more sensible thing to do
I've read Gardens of the Moon a few years ago, hated it, and now I'm amazed that all that is left from the book for me is the dislike. I don't remember anything from the plot, I don't remember the characters, anything. Listening to this review was like listening to a review of a book I've never heard of XD
I loved this book but i had zero influence from anyone other than my best friend from 4th grade. Had never heard of it before, had no idea the series was known. Chaotic Mess?! I didnt think so. I enjoyed it thoroughly. A lot going on and a lot of characters and maybe that scares some people off but not if you read it as a sliver of rich and dense history that doesn’t always go the way you want to. Im on memories of ice now and have never before been so drawn into a series before. Im not a fantasy guy at all. More a sci fi reader
I think that the second book will at least work better for you. Not only is it just better in character, plot and prose but in GotM a lot of the confusing parts take away from the story if you dontt know what they mean, and in Deadhouse gates they do that a lot less. For example one thing you brought up was how the magic felt very out of nowhere because he never tells you the rules, and in dg, you understand the magic more, and there use of it is less intrusive and used as the solution to less.
My favourite series and book 2 is only second to book 10 in my opinion. I don't know how he wrote them in such a relatively short space of time - it took me almost as long to read them. Genius.
I did not enjoy GOTM at all. The only part that got a feeling out of me was the dinner scene, because I actually understood the significance of what was happening. Despite this, I'm giving book two a shot cause a lot of people say it's better, and it follows different people anyway, so hopefully they'll be more interesting
Lol you two are very honest about what you read. You actually gave me more insight on how the book is like than most fans. It sounds like it's too much for no real reason other than just to be challenging. Hopefully I will like it but I don't mend well with books that demand 1000% from me, it's why I like short literary sci-fi fiction.
As an outsider, the complexity and number of characters leads me to believe that it is the world that matters. Everything else such as plot, character arches, and action are the window dressing.
I am planning to start Malazan this year. I have read both TWOT and the Silmarillion without much of an issue but i already knew what i was coming into, with Malazan i'm a bit lost so i don't know what to expect. TWOT "slog" were like 3-4 entire books and i have to admit that if it were an ongoing series with me waiting for each book i would probably have dropped it, not because of the "complexity" of the story but just because the boring plot those books was quite a challenge. So if the only "slog" in this series is the 1st book i am somewhat relieved and maybe i can get through with the knowledge that what is to come is great. I just hope there's no character like Egwene in this series... God, how insufferable she was...
You guys should reach out to Steven Erikson. He does interviews with youtubers all the time and i think a conversation could be interesting even if you don’t go beyond Gardens.
I read The Malazan series last year and i feel like a God-tier reader now…and am. Readers, lend me your bookmarks and let the Malazan series lead you to the promise land bhwahahahaha
I was really on board with this series in the beginning, but by book 7 it started to lose me. The Crippled God I felt really let down by, didn't stick the landing for me at all. I'm super happy for everyone else that loved the ending, I'm just not one of them.
Yoooooo let's gooooo! Thanks for having me on guys! It was a blast ❤
So handsome
😘
Salty I hope you’re loving Royal Assassin
hi
the expanse
You know the book slaps when Austin dislikes it.
😂 I deserve this
😂😂😂
This is my all time favorite series. If Austin can’t make it through wheel of time there’s no way he’s reading Malazan all the way through
To be fair he didn’t stop WoT because it was confusing or complicated, but because he found every character to be unlikable, and for it to be full of cliches and tropes. So who knows this may be a different experience for him.
@@iSamwise no, he didmt like wheel of tome because he was sold that it was about men and woman and was so focused on the romantic angle that when that didnt hit it bothered him. I think he said that in one of the reviews after getting so stuck on the rough relationships between men and woman, essentially the way the theme was handled he didnt like it, and was sold something else
It’s a combo of both your comments for sure!
I don’t agree. The tv series of WoT ruined the books for me but I will compete Malazan. Much better series!
Malazan is so much better than WoT... no comparison.
"2.5? That is low! That is low, RIch. I'll give it 1.5 but that's low!"😂
"You don't start with this book, this is not a beginner Fantasy story, you just won't enjoy it"
Me, who hasn't read any series since Harry Potter ~20 years ago, who picked up GotM and fell instantly in love with the world and characters: Uh, fascinating.
I think one of the primary reasons that most people enjoy the reread so much more is that you're no longer comparing the book to your expectations of what it would or should be, you just accept what is being offered on its own merit.
And you understand soo much more on your second read.
It's probably more a justification of effort effect. Humans don't like to waste effort it's expensive evolutionarily. So when you do something that's difficult, even if the easier option is better in every way. We tend to tell ourselves that we like the hard option more. Cults making it hard to join them so that when you do, you never want to leave is the go-to example.
Also, anomander rake is the heaviest presence on page in any book ive ever read. So OP. So cool.
Here's the thing with Malazan: Erikson isn't going for Epic Fantasy; he's relating a history of nations. He isn't trying to push a button for an emotional response and that approach, for me, is more challenging and interesting than someone like Sanderson who works the reader toward a specific emotional response. It's easy to be spoon-fed, but Erikson doesn't let you off that easy. ;)
Really? One of the reasons I found Deadhouse Gates so grating is that the emotional moments felt spoon fed. I know what I was supposed to be feeling when reading Felisin's story. But that active knowledge of what Erikson is trying to do made it harder to care. In many ways I'd say telographing the emotional response he wants you to have is a major flaw in the writing.
I'm just waiting for the Deadhouse Gates review. The chain of dogs is probably my favorite narrative in fantasy.
@@TraGiiXzaze The ending of chain of dogs got me good
I’m a horrible person, I read DHG first (I really wanted to read Erickson it was the only one on shelves) and it hooked me easy. Yeah, it’s difficult, lots of stuff whooshed right over me, but I was in the emotions the whole time. The stakes are high and gutting.
I really wish I got out of Deadhouse Gates what so many people seem to have gotten.
@@jimlahey6330 Same. I especially hated the chain of dogs lol. I was so bored. I wanted to like the series so bad, but not for me.
@@fojoMy main problem with Malazan is that I just can not get invested in any character because there are so many and Erikson keeps most of them so distant from you that they all blend together. I relate to them about as much as I would relate to people in a history book. I may empathise with their plight but it doesn't emotionally affect me. I knew that in theory the Chain of Dogs was tragic and full of pathos but I just didn't care enough about any character to illicit a strong emotional reaction. If Malazan had the character writing of ASoIaF or RotE it would probably be my favourite series because so many other things about it are brilliant.
Malazan is the Dark Souls or reading. Its hard unrelenting, and you have to be a certain kind of masochistic to love it.If you make that first connection and are hooked, there's no turning back, and it's hard to explain to casuals the full appeal.
Two sides of the community - git gud or walking encyclopedias
I think it's really pathetic to call people "casuals" for not getting into a series. Yes, Malazan has a ton of great things about it but it also has a ton of issues. There are a lot of valid reasons to drop the series.
That's also how cults work. So not exactly selling me on this.
I believe it's called Gardens of the Moon because Apsalar tells Crokus about the under water gardens on the real moon (not moon spawn) and how the god up there will take choosen people and allow them to live on the moon in peace with no wars.
So much fun that you're picking up this book. I just started my first read of Crippled God (the tenth and last book of MBotF) and I'm just here to say that, although I loved your video, I feel Malazan really should be reviewed as a series. And yes, first time reading Gardens of the Moon is a rough landing. And yes, it takes some puzzling and concentration, but I think it does not do it justice. I think in terms of expectations it helps to read the series as a story about a changing world in turmoil from a lot of different perspectives, rather than what we're used to (stories about a group, a person or a nation).
I think the qualities of the series are:
1. The overall plot (it is not just the Malazan empire stirring, all the Gods are stirring)
2. It's emotional moments (and yes they truly start in Deadhouse Gates)
3. Erikson's work on themes both at the personal as well as the societal level
4. The intricate world building, original races, magic system
(5. oh and the humorous banter)
really great response and the advice i didnt know i needed. im half way through memories of ice and while i do like malazan and the world building, i find myself losing interest and patience with this series. it is the most difficult book i've ever read and i think it is because im trying to read it as a traditional fantasy story.
@@themightyHP glad it helped. I needed to realise it myself to get more enjoyment out of it
Love that you are trying Malazan! I struggled with the first book on my first try and didn't finish. Went back and got through it on the second try but didn't love it. However, by the end of the series it was easily my faviourite series of all time. Actually by the end of book 2 I knew that. I'm now enjoying a reread and it is truly a work of genius and it has ruined other fantasy for me. (Also, Gardens is an easy 5 stars on reread). Malazan combines all the best of fantasy - excellent prose, incredible world building, epic scale, over the top cool shit and incredibly poignant, moving moments and musings. Whilst I don't belive in reading something you're not enjoying, I will always encourage people to push on in Malazan because riches await the people who persevere.
It is so interesting how you view Tattersail. I saw her actions almost like using sex as a coping mechanism (without getting into spoilers on Tattersail and her life), rather than any true attraction.
Similarly with Paran you say 'complete 180 of motivation' but we see very clearly from Page 1 that the rose-tinted glasses through which he viewed the Empire have been UTTERLY removed even before he ever meets Lorn. Tattersail's death is the final straw in a long, long list of things that have disillusioned Paran.
Crockus and Chalice’s scene was the best scene imo. He confesses his love for her and she laughs in his face. Perfect for the naive boy.
crokus gets the best girl anyways
I think one of the main themes in Gardens of the Moon is duty. It feels prominent throughout, from a military perspective, to the divine and faith, but also to family, friends and the wider community.
I'm surprised caleb didn't go into a mental breakdown for trashing one of his favorite book so much. I think bringing guests that are familiar with the series while you guys review the first book is great
This is both the book I want to see reviewed and the people that I wanted to review it.
One thing I think you really have to accept with Malazan is that it's as if you're reading an entire body of mythology for a different world. Some stories and characters within that scope, you'll connect with more than others. Sometimes it's just Zeus turning into a bull and bedding a maiden. Sometimes it's the story of Jason and the Golden Fleece. What's hilarious (and true), is you have to read ALL 10 BOOKS to really "get" the series (no pressure). For what it's worth, the jump in quality from book 1 to book 2 is almost as big as Empire of Silence to Howling Dark. Hopefully you guys will continue the series and enjoy it more as you progress. You must meet Karsa Orlong. WItness!
*Lead us, Warleader*
I am going to read Malazan again. I stopped my reread at Bonehunter.
The story is amazing. The rewards increases exponentially as you read more.
So stoked for Rich to do book 2. Suffering through the first 70-80% is so normal. You both experienced this first one about as anyone should or could 😂😂 glad you both gave it a shot and I’m excited to see Rich’s future thoughts. Austin, I totally get not wanting to continue-hopefully Rich’s book two experience gets you back on board.
For reference deadhouse gates is my all time number 1 book (of all I’ve read) and I’m 4 books in to the series. I didn’t understand anything going on in book 2 until the emotional notes clicked. After that, everything was easier to just follow. Trusting the author was a big thing for me to get over but once I just let go of the wheel it worked.
We’ve heard such great things about Deadhouse Gates, this is great to hear. And definitely, if book 2 clicks with Rich and he gets me to read, we’ll see how rest of this goes 🤝
@@2ToRamble 😂 best of luck-it is a journey
"Trust the author," so I already have to believe it's good before it gets good? Or it could just be good without me having to trick myself.
@@myself2noone noooo I’m referring to trusting the author to deliver on their promises. And the thing with Erikson is he makes a lot but distinguishes them very subtly
I totally get where you're coming from with Gardens of the Moon. I struggled with it too at first, but I stuck with it, and now I'm on the sixth book, The Bonehunters. It's become my favorite series ever! I did some digging and found a few tricks that helped me really get into Malazan. Here are some tips that worked for me:
1. Enjoy the current scene: Trying to connect every scene to the bigger plot can be super confusing and frustrating. Instead, I started focusing on the current scene and enjoying Erikson's amazing prose and the vivid scene he creates. Trust that Erikson knows what he's doing - if you relax and just go with the flow, things will eventually click, and it’s always worth it.
2. Think of each scene as a short story: I learned from A Critical Dragon's channel that Erikson writes scenes like short stories, full of layers and meaning. When I read, I ask myself what the sentence or paragraph means and what else it could mean. This helps me go a few layers deeper and appreciate the story more. The puzzle building aspect of Malazan which fans love.
3. Use Malazwiki carefully: I use it sparingly to avoid spoilers.
These tips have made my reading experience so much better and helped me fall in love with Malazan. Hope they help you too! Keep at it - the journey is incredible once you get into it!
Thanks for the tips! - seems like the way to go when reading this
Speaking to your first point, if you are meant to know something, Erikson WILL bring it up again. It's not the big stuff that's hidden, it's the subtle nods and details that make you realize that he was planting seeds for books 9 and 10 in books 1-3.
Thank you for being awesome. That rating joke of 2.5 vs 1.5 was really clever.
This book I am rereading this multiple times, each time I am reading I am progressing little by little. It’s like Ground Hog day movie with the book.
Glad to see my goat get some love! It took me 4+ years to get through just Book of the Fallen. Key to getting through it all is long breaks between books.
You guys touched on it briefly but the fact that Erikson had this book written and tried to ship it around to different publishers for 7 years is actually really significant for understanding why so many people are telling you guys to read on. Book 2, Deadhouse Gates, is not only more enjoyable from a new-reader-whatthefuckisgoingon-perspective, it's also just a markedly huge improvement in writing quality and his skill as an author. Erikson was traditionally trained as a short-story writer, and that is where the massive number of POV characters and atypical characterization (atypical in the genre, at least) come into play. Each "scene" is just a piece of the whole and in some cases aren't even necessarily used to advance the plot but to brush on the thematic elements Erikson wants to bring.
All that being said, Gardens is kind of an exercise in setting up traditional fantasy tropes and then dismantling them and knocking them down. Very heavily inspired by Dune, and The Black Company books by Glen Cook. Every book is an improvement on the previous one! hopefully when Rich continues on he can convince Austin to try Deadhouse Gates. Also - the community has been nothing but welcoming and warm towards me and others from my experience; I've found that the spaces specifically dedicated to Malazan fandom are generally great, and it's those broader communities that tend to grab the jerkoffs that can be "rabid".
cheers!
First time fantasy readers seem to handle this better than experienced as I've encountered. From the simple fact of they have no expectations of what fantasy is so this becomes the baseline and instead of unlearning and readjusting it is just the norm. I'm in the literally middle as of last night on my GotM re-read and oh man does it feel so obvious and clear! Ha! Good Luck Y'all!
I tend to agree, also people who read a lot more in the contemporary vein (the stuff with more experimental structure etc) tend to be fine with it.
Thats interesting I can totally see that - seems like it wouldnt be the case but I like your explanation
As someone whose first introduction to Sci Fi/Fantasy was the first 4 Dune books, I agree.
I'm more of a (60s-80s) science fiction/sci fantasy reader and I have been having a very easy time with Malazan! Those old books just drop you right in with hardly any context, either. Only difference is, a lot of those old books are 170 page standalones, while Malazan is a 10,000 page series. There is so much to explore here. I'm spoiled. I'm used to it being over in 200 pages or less. I'm already used to this 'just go with it' style. The presence with Erikson writes is exhilarating. This man knows how to write a tense scene. (Half way through Memories of Ice, for context). And the rest of my fantasy consumption has been mainly Tolkien, Dunsany, Abercrombie and Guy Gavriel Kay. Also SOME Tad Williams and Ken Liu, but I DNFed their series. So I agree. I'm jumping in without many preconceived notions of modern fantasy. The Malazan structure really does it for me!
@@willp2877 now you dropped the Dandelion Dynasty? that first book i didn’t like. been told to do book 2, but the first one was just non-stop chronicles, history book.
spoiler GotM:
oh he does and in GotM there is this internal monologue with whiskey jack where he bits his cheek to spit blood and says ‘there, not so hard to look at’ after he just contemplated the death of citizens and friends he’s about to order in darujistan.
I started Malazan just over 6 years ago as my first foray into fantasy. Needless to say, I gave up shortly into chapter 2. After reading at least 10 books a year (27 last year), I finally decided it was time to re-open Malazan and give it a shot. I found it confusing and chaotic, but once I just accepted that I won't know what is going on all of the time, take things scene by scene, and just decided to enjoy the ride, I ended up really enjoying it. After finishing Wheel of Time last year, I couldn't find a book series that peaked my interest in the same way until picking up Gardens of the Moon again.
Can't help feeling disappointment by your disappointment 😂 I loved this book so much - I was reading it and feeling "omg this is so cool" throughout. I didn't really expect a resolution given the long series. If you continue, I hope it ends up growing on you.
🤝
so Malazan is like Tool, a genuinely complex and interesting piece of art surrounded by an insufferable fanbase
Well said
Tool is complex for people that scratch the surface when it comes to experimental/prog metal. Malazan is genuinely on of the most complex book series out there.
I was so confused for a minute when I thought you were talking about Onos T’oolan 😂
I think it's a side effect that occurs with any fan-base where the materiel is memetically difficult. A good portion of the fans get smug. However, Malazan is brilliant and who else are you gonna talk about it with? They're the only ones out there as crazy as you.
I'm excited for you guys to get to the later books, the plot and themes really stack on top of each other as the series progresses
I literally had to reread the beginning three times before it clicked, but again, AMAZING.
If you are looking for themes and theme-centered writing, Malazan is THE book for you. Especially in the second half the meta plot is honestly more interesting than the normal plot. But it is true that in Gardens of the Moon that is not that present yet.
I’m really disappointed that you two didn’t like this. I had a hard time when I first read this and dnf’d it about halfway through. Just didn’t have the mental energy and I was reading WOT at the time so it just didn’t work for me. But then I finished wheel of time, saw a few reviews for this series, decided on a whim to buy all the books and give GOTM another shot. I’m so glad that I did, because gardens of the moon is probably one of the best first books in the series I’ve ever read. It is crazy enjoyable that is both complex and rewarding. The complexity is overblown by a lot of people, and it’s actually fairly easy to put the pieces together once you get into it but it’s just such a good book. Think I ended giving it a 8.8/10. The second book, dead house gates is somehow even better and while I would normally recommend it if you like the first book, I just don’t know if you’re too gentlemen will be able to vibe with the is series. Very sad but that’s how it goes 🤷♂️
Also the fan comments are so true. I had a small critique for book 2 and the fans were calling me stupid 😅
@@Izzyzilreads Have you ever interacted with fans of the game studio Fromsoftware? They make games such as Elden Ring and Dark Souls. Fromsoftware fans are literally Malazan fans, except their thing is video games rather than books
@@KALtheHighstorm117 it’s the same type of people, and as a fan of both I’m sorry for them
@@Izzyzilreads Yeah there are a lot of good things in both communities, but also a lot of bad eggs that neither fandom deserves. I'm not a fan of either, but I agree, I feel sorry for them because I respect both a lot
Imagine if you were appointed as Malazan Ambassador to 2ToRamble. What an honor. So much pressure. And then they don't even like the book. That would be wild...
Caleb did great 🫡
@@2ToRamble soooo good. Great discussion and a good example of when this series might not be for everyone, which is ok.
I’ve never had a feeling of epicness on the level of this book. I love that I have no idea what is going on with the magic or gods. It’s like I’m slowly being exposed to this massive system and history.
I love malazan because it reads like a comic. Its thrilling and exciting, and i can feel scenes play out in my head. And scenes are epic and cool.
Fair !
Think it would be very fun to watch you have a discussion with the Jeff and Lana from DLC Bookclub. They are going through all the Malazan books of the main series and their experience of the first book was different.
I think my biggest disagreement comes with the shared opinion of the world depth 😬 I think that yes, it’s as WIDE as my aunt Susan, but also incredibly deep with reference to past gods, events, wars, like everything you could want. It’s just a LOT of deep.
Fair - we know it’s deep but just arent aware of the depth yet in a way. Im certain Erikson has a world as in depth as anyone out there, just we didnt get to feel as immersed, at least in book 1
i read malazan as one of my first fantasy reads and i honestly feel like that helped me with getting into the book/serires because i had no preconceived notions or ideas on how a fantasy series should flow or be structured. It really is one of those stories where you just have to trust the author knows what he's doing and trust in yourself that you'll piece it together as you go. because you will, it just takes time.
26:10 - 26:20 Lol, this bit of clarification reminds me of: 'The pellet with the poison's in the flagon with the dragon.'
(100 points to anyone who gets that reference, likely no one. I'm a nerd.)
0 points for us 😭
I had started this series sometime last year when I was starting a new job. I took one month to read just the first 100 pages. Eventually my job pressure was so high that I just couldn't concentrate on Malazan so I dropped it. Sometime next year I am planning to restart this series. Hopefully it goes better this time
Welcome to the party boys!!
Read GOTM three times before I moved on the DG, which I read twice. Once I got to the end of DG, I felt aha, a bit. Anyway I haven't had the time to move forward, too many other commitments, but now appreciate it.
Thats one thing that might hold me back - Im not a rereader (even my favorite books ever) - I rarely go back to reread, and seems like Malazan might need that
-A
I'm super curious, I've been tempted to buy the first book but I'm waiting for a calmer time in my tbr when I can just relax and enjoy the long journey of these books. I think I'll love them for everything that's been said. Next year will be WoT, starting January, so Malazan still has to wait a bit. Great episode! ✨
Thank you! And good idea holding off until the tbr calms down - this series requires a lot of focus
This world is alive. Reader's are thrown into the situation they don't understand. But the characters do, or atleast some of them. They don't get things explained, so you don't too. Events are happening outside the things you read about and a lot of the background is blurred, skewed by perspectives of POV's, because that's how history and time works.
Yeah, but the themes are explained to you like you're 5 years old on every page. A normal fantasy series does the opposite. The world building is obvious, but the theams need to be worked out. And I don't get the point of that. Aren't you bored by the same idea being repeated until you can slog through the ending? Whatever. I read for ideas and themes, not just world building. But I guess it's fair that you have a series that works for you the same way most others do for me.
Read 1 and 2 a year ago and considering getting back into it, this might be the recap I need right at the perfect time.
I CANNOT WAIT for you to read book 2. Deadhouse Gates is where most readers find their footing in Malazan. One of the best storylines in the entire series.
Gardens of the Moon was a 5/5 for me, it's a bit batshit crazy but that's exactly what I was looking for when I picked it up. So many incredible scenes and Erikson's prose is so tight in this one.
I read gardens of the moon a week ago and loved it but I def think it’s a very hit or miss kind of book. I’m honestly a lil suprised he got a publisher on board with this book
I'm going to push back against Rich saying Malazan isn't the place to start. I'm probably in the very small minority that basically started with Malazan. My fantasy reading before Malazan was ASOIAF, Broken Empire, and Red Queen's War. Then I read Gardens and Malazan set the standard for fantasy for me. I've yet to find another series that comes close to it for me, years later.
I've tried lotr and wheel of time and hated them. I wrote off the whole genre since those were the giants of fantasy. Someone said Erikson is like Faulkner and dostoevsky and it got me to check it out. The series is some of my favorite books across all of literature and I don't even want to read any more fantasy if it's not like malazan!
As one great author said before: This is a matter of reading comprehension
I think it says something for the book itself that even if you guys didn’t love it, you still had a 2 hour discussion about it
Honestly, I've been making my way through the first book for WAY too long, and I realize I bought my fantasy presuppositions into reading this book: I HAD NO IDEA the gods were intervening until I watched this despite how obvious it is in retrospect. Not a spoiler, just a serious oversight on my part.
I like that you are reviewing this book. I'm curious as to how well Rich will like Deadhouse Gates. I was probably 3 or 4 out of 5 stars for Gardens of the Moon, mainly due to the fact I could see the awesome fantasy aspects in the worldbuilding, races/magic/battles/politics/etc. that it was a good balance out for my confusion as to what is happening. I've finished through book 6 and there's a lot of confusion still. I think it's because there's so much going on that I cannot keep track of it all.
Which was your favorite of the bunch so far?
I think I'm an oddity, but if push came to shove, I think my favorite is Midnight Tides (book 5) slightly edging out Memories of Ice (book 3) which slightly edges out House of Chains (book 4). What I'm finding, which can really impact a favorite, is that even though I'm confused on some things the layers of story and characters slowly come together and merge with some "AH HA!" type moments that are really cool when you connect A to B to C.
My difficulty in moving forward is that these things are CHONKERS and the prose, while masterful, is very dense. You could easily miss something if not paying attention and so my mindset needs to be right before I dig into my next book, Reapers Gale.
Rich is gonna be Austin's shaved knuckle in the hole by reading Deadhouse Gates for him
What 😂
@@2ToRamble 🤣🤣🤣 you'll understand about a 3rd of the way through book 2 😉
@@2ToRamble I was banking on some Malazan heads to see this comment and "like" it because they get the joke, but so far NOTHIN 😂🥴🙃 I'll see myself out
@@willp2877 LMAO
@@2ToRambleMalazan fan checking in, this was very funny
I stopped reading halfway through the fourth book when I realised what he was doing. He has the whole story planned out and is giving it to you with lore in bits and pieces and pretending it’s clever. Most of his characters are poorly written and most of their motivations and conclusions come out of nowhere.
Fair take. I thought it was fantastic
I struggled through Gotm and Dhg because i just didnt care about the majority of the characters. Ericksons writing style just feels so removed and clinical that i couldn't connect with a lot of them.
A lot of elitests say the complexity is the issue for most people but I honestly think it's Erickson's writing style that people bounce off of.
That could be a part of it - good way of describing what didnt connect for us character-wise
I've finally nearly listened to this whole conversion, honestly found it baffling and near rage inducing.
Just read until Memories of Ice. I kid you not, you will experience the best (or worst) emotional beating of your life by words written by Erikson.
Kruppe alone makes this book worth the price of admission 😂 Having only read the first two books, I’m going to go out on a limb and guess he’s waaaayy more powerful and crafty than we’ll ever realize…
Gurl, book 3 has a Kruppe scene that shows his power lol
@@BooksRebound Not surprised! And I wouldn’t be surprised if Kruppe were the key to, like, everything lmao
I finished the first book yesterday i didn’t love it or hate it but was overwhelming so you really need to be focused when reading this book.
I don't usually watch the spoiler part i haven't read the book.
I've not read the series but I've been intrigued for a while.
After watching the spoiler section and knowing that the next few books are completely different i don't feel spoiled at all I still have no idea if this series is for me.
🤝
Most readers will not appreciate book 1 until the first reread. The book really comes alive on the reread in my experience!
I think Austin would really enjoy book 3, Memories of Ice, it feels very Stormlight and has some of the best action pieces in the series. It's also much more focused, where right from very early on you know what the endgame of this story is, that's not to say it's predictable, cuz it certainly isn't. It's also the point in the series where the themes start to really take the forefront, and during the emotional climax of the book, a character even just straight up gives Erikson's thesis statement for the entire series in what's quite possibly the most well-known quote in the series. It's also the only Malazan book to make me cry with full-on tears, and it did it twice, and I basically never cry when reading.
Honestly, if you wanted to, you could just jump right into it right after GotM. It's a direct sequel to GotM and was actually intended to be the original second book in the series. Unfortunately, his file corrupted while he was writing it, so he decided to just jump into Deadhouse Gates instead. Some Malazan fans will crucify me, but I think the series has way better onboarding if you swap books 2 and 3. They take place roughly concurrently, and neither of them spoil the other and more than the other. Plus, I think Memories of Ice is much more indicative of the tone of the rest of the series than anything else in the first three books. I genuinely think y'all will love it, Memories of Ice is that one book in the series where basically everyone recognizes that it's one of if not the best in the series.
Woah that would be a strange reading order - you’re the first to suggest this! It goes against every natural inclination in our bodies, but is this how uou read it?
Malazan is the Tom Bombadil of book series lol and I LOVE ol' Tom Bombadil 🤣
I've bounced off this book three or so times now, all very early on. Quite literally, I couldn't get past page one of the physical book (though I'm going to try that again because it was MMP and I hate(d) those), had no desire to pick it up again on ten or so pages into the ebook, and stopped 15 minutes into the audiobook. Going to listen to the video though and see if spoilers help here like they did in WoT.
As a sidenote, I just read Will of the Many, it was so fun. I read it in a single day. Looking forward to your review.
Glad you loved Will of the Many too!
Gardens of the Moon was a tough read but Deadhouse Gates is a big step up and Memories of Ice is even better (only at the halfway point though)
I guess I’m 4 months late to the party. But I would like to come to defense of my boy Paran. I agree that his and tatersail’s relationship did feel rushed but I would like to push back on his reasoning for pursuing Lorn over high mage. This is my just interpretation but i believe his reasons for pursuing Lorn have to do a lot with Paran’s state of mind in this section of the story and the greater theme that is what it means to be someone else’s tool. Similarly to how Lorn is a tool for the Empress, Paran was a tool for Lorn. She kept him in the dark about her real intentions to release the Jag on darujhistan. Had Paran not been killed by Sorry, he would have been left to die in the city with bridgeburners and I believe in this section of the story Paran mentions this as well. Paran speaks often about being denied his just due. He was promised by Lorn that he would be given the opportunity to kill Sorry without ever fully understanding what that meant. That Sorry was possessed by the rope and he never really would have stood a chance at killing her. When he was resurrected by Oppon he became a tool of the gods. Paran was frustrated. He felt his life wasn’t his own. He was made twice a tool. Paran in my interpretation was fighting to gain back his own autonomy and the fact that Lorn played a small role in tatersails death was just a cherry on top. It made the conclusion for his story arc more ironic bc again he was denied. Lorn was killed by someone else reiterating again to him that he just player in someone else’s game. What he wants doesn’t matter. It was super symbolic that he took up Lorns Anti magic sword in the end really closing the circle. Paran a tool of Lorn and of the Gods picked the sword of another tool. A sword that I suspect given its properties will help fight back against his fate of being a tool to people more powerful than him.
I've been waiting for this! 😊 Gonna watch at work tonight. 😁
😁
I enjoyed reminiscing about GotM with this podcast, even though you guys were haters. 😂 I can't believe it's been almost 4 years since I read this book! It's almost time for a re-read. I bet I will understand everything!
Hail yes! 2 to Ramble upload to start the day
😁
If you're looking for a complex multi-POV book that tells some very interesting stories along a central theme/throughline I would HIGHLY recommend Adrian Tchaikovsky's City of Last Chances. Lots of people describe it as a "fantasy version of Les Miz"
reading 3 books now.. I'm here to finally check out your review.. and all I can see is the 6 pack of corona behind Salty xD
😂
SALTY IS IN THIS
I love the Silimarillion and Dune. I’m going for it.
Just finished the First ten books in the malazan series. Absolutely worth the read!! Also concerning your comment on Paran taking revenge on Tayschrenn, it makes absolutely no sense for the events because Tayschrenn is a High Mage. Paran would be killed before he could even dream of revenge. But Lorn was a skilled swordswoman at best, and Paran decided she was a much easier target than a frigging High Mage. So yeah, going after Lorn was the more sensible thing to do
furthermore, Tayshrenn's role in the betrayal is murky at best, and Paran had years of resentment and a personal relationship with Lorn.
I’m reading this now and it’s amazing.
I've read Gardens of the Moon a few years ago, hated it, and now I'm amazed that all that is left from the book for me is the dislike. I don't remember anything from the plot, I don't remember the characters, anything. Listening to this review was like listening to a review of a book I've never heard of XD
This Caleb guy gets it.
I loved this book but i had zero influence from anyone other than my best friend from 4th grade. Had never heard of it before, had no idea the series was known. Chaotic Mess?! I didnt think so. I enjoyed it thoroughly. A lot going on and a lot of characters and maybe that scares some people off but not if you read it as a sliver of rich and dense history that doesn’t always go the way you want to.
Im on memories of ice now and have never before been so drawn into a series before. Im not a fantasy guy at all. More a sci fi reader
I think that the second book will at least work better for you. Not only is it just better in character, plot and prose but in GotM a lot of the confusing parts take away from the story if you dontt know what they mean, and in Deadhouse gates they do that a lot less. For example one thing you brought up was how the magic felt very out of nowhere because he never tells you the rules, and in dg, you understand the magic more, and there use of it is less intrusive and used as the solution to less.
Thats great to hear
I think he goes after Lorn in part to save the Bridgeburners.
I also feel like Paran was sick of being used for years and knew by then he was sent to get murdered by a god.
My favourite series and book 2 is only second to book 10 in my opinion. I don't know how he wrote them in such a relatively short space of time - it took me almost as long to read them. Genius.
I did not enjoy GOTM at all. The only part that got a feeling out of me was the dinner scene, because I actually understood the significance of what was happening. Despite this, I'm giving book two a shot cause a lot of people say it's better, and it follows different people anyway, so hopefully they'll be more interesting
Gardens of the Moon is so good
WoT is my all time favorite series. That’s why I’m here.
Lol you two are very honest about what you read. You actually gave me more insight on how the book is like than most fans. It sounds like it's too much for no real reason other than just to be challenging. Hopefully I will like it but I don't mend well with books that demand 1000% from me, it's why I like short literary sci-fi fiction.
Yea this one definitely requires 1000% so be prepared going in 🫡
My brain is so smooth that this book just skipped right over my head
Just finished book 7 in the Malazan series 🙂 taking a break for a while.
I cannot wait to hear your thoughts on Deadhouse Gates if you decide to check it out! Such a uniquely written series
As an outsider, the complexity and number of characters leads me to believe that it is the world that matters. Everything else such as plot, character arches, and action are the window dressing.
Seems like a world first book, though the plot was more impressive for Rich and I in book 1
I'd argue it's a theme focused book. Everything is great, imo, but it's all in service of the themes and messages Erikson wanted to examine
Witness!
1:23:36 the burn of burns 😂😂😂 Austin fucking wheezing over there while Rich loses his mind 😂
Also Lorn said she had the hots for Parran too lmao. What a dog.
Yeah guys if you can last until book 3 when it becomes a more traditional fantasy adventure. Its the first 9/10 in the series for me.
Chaotic mess? Poor summer children... 😁
For Austin: Yeah, this is just not for you.
For Richard: I would say, come back to it in a few years.
I am planning to start Malazan this year. I have read both TWOT and the Silmarillion without much of an issue but i already knew what i was coming into, with Malazan i'm a bit lost so i don't know what to expect.
TWOT "slog" were like 3-4 entire books and i have to admit that if it were an ongoing series with me waiting for each book i would probably have dropped it, not because of the "complexity" of the story but just because the boring plot those books was quite a challenge. So if the only "slog" in this series is the 1st book i am somewhat relieved and maybe i can get through with the knowledge that what is to come is great. I just hope there's no character like Egwene in this series... God, how insufferable she was...
You guys should reach out to Steven Erikson. He does interviews with youtubers all the time and i think a conversation could be interesting even if you don’t go beyond Gardens.
I read The Malazan series last year and i feel like a God-tier reader now…and am. Readers, lend me your bookmarks and let the Malazan series lead you to the promise land bhwahahahaha
😁😂
I was really on board with this series in the beginning, but by book 7 it started to lose me. The Crippled God I felt really let down by, didn't stick the landing for me at all. I'm super happy for everyone else that loved the ending, I'm just not one of them.