Kadano Explaination of tumble and jump buffering: • Tumble and jump buffering Catch me live: / ssbmginger Support Me: / ssbmginger or / ssbmginger Stay updated: / ssbmginger
Yeah I'll for sure try this technique out if wd more often. Could save 1/3 of a second from the normal setup by being able to just smash the direction instead. Will have to test it out to see for sure though.
this literally unlocked for me so many things that i was trying to do but wasn't fast enough to do with the jump button like turnaround uptilt, shine dair edgeguards, and shine bair
Dear new players! If you like Spacies. Tap jump is used by a LOT of players to very quickly and easily jump out of shine for an areal. This is most useful with Falco's Shine Jump Areals like Shine Bair. Its much easier to use tapjump for Shine Bair/Dair (cStick) than it is to use a jump button. For most people anyway. Melee gets way more comfortable with time! And soon it will all feel like second nature and you'll be shmoovin in no time!
Right? I got used to holding the controller a certain way that gets me that semi up or down height, ever since 64. Down tilts actually come out a little faster cuz it skips the squat animation.
Much appreciated ginger. These are some of my favorites videos of yours. I have gotten the ability to play real melee as I don’t have the means but the fact that tap jump is always on I often considered a disadvantage to playing it. It always puzzled me how pros are able to have such control over the game despite it. I understood the buffering idea at a basic level but it still seemed like an annoyance more than anything. The fact that it actually can add to the game at an extremely deep level to elevate it at a professional level is really sick and something I never knew. Super cool video
Yeah, like everyone else saying it here, I've just learned to tilt the stick up slowly or buffer up in some instances (like dair > uptilt). It's a thing that takes some practice, just like doing late aerials/crossups and ledgedashes.
Love the vid ginger....I think the dead-zone for the analog stick is also a good thing to go over....you can show people how the dead-zone works and how far you can actually tilt up before it registers a jump input.
in case you’re curios, brawl added custom controls including disabling tap jump one distinction though is that brawl didnt have tilt sticks, instead it’d just do a neutral attack if i remember correctly. Smash 4 added proper tilt sticks
@@HaydenTheEeeeeeeeevilEukaryote is not possible already know how to do it manually but it's hard to get used to it, you rly don't have it easy in melee lmao
Buffering shield tilt left or right is what I use when landing on platforms for shield drops. I think this would be a good video for getting used to that as well.
Tap jump is also important for certain character's short hop double aerials. I know for Link, you have a 2 frame window to input the jump using x or y after SH bair, but when buffering using tap jump it becomes a 4 frame window, which is more consistent.
Glad to see your video about this topic. damageflytop prevents 20F buffer jump on correct timing, but accidentally doublejump comes out on frame 60 or 61 in throw-stun too. di to off-stage with falco, and input of 20f buffer jump or 4f true buffer tap jump, then falco doublejumps on frame 60 or 61. additionally in 20f "buffer", you don't need to keep tapping joystick.
embrace the tap jump. shine OOS with tap jump, SHFFL with tap jump, SH laser with tap jump. (dont do this, i learned all these techniques this way and had to relearn all of it a year later)
I still can't believe that this is not obvious to people. Then again, people are used to having a buffer on everything. This is a good example of why not having a buffer on everything is a good thing! I land with my next angle every time. Like forward if I want to shield drop after an L cancel or whatever other actions. If there were a buffer on everything I would be forced to roll instead.
In ultimate I turn tap jump off but whenever I go back to older games, brawl, melee, even sm4sh, I go back to tap jump. Idk why but I feel tap jump feels much better in the older games but not ultimate. Maybe it's just me
The most useful thing for tap jump is shine down air, it becomes so much easier to perform. Another thing I use is to regrab the ledge. People can adapt to tap jump, it just take some time with no problem
Up tilting after aerials using a semi-tilt should be mentioned too! It allows a tilt without being a jump input. Very precise, but makes your move choice more flexible.
wow, I really didn’t know about those things. I thought the only way to do it was to semi tilt the stick. I loved the concept of this video. I would really like to see more explanations on motions/inputs on the simple things ^^
I wanna mention that there are more downsides to turning off tapjump in melee. 2 techniques come to mind that are essencially the same. Upsmash Out of Shield and Dash Upsmash. Both of these utilize the jumpsquat frames to make you able to upsmash where you otherwise couldn't. With regular grip on the gamecube controller going from X/Y to C-Up can be taxing on your hands and so a popular way of doing this is with tapjump instead of X/Y. Characters such as Fox and Sheik only have a 2 frame window to work with.
While I think the current control scheme may add more technical skill to the game I think it's always important to make any games controls customizable. This is because not only may someone have a disability and not be able to play a certain way but also everyone's brain works differently and some things may be more intuitive for them. Also if you don't have good motor control in your fingers it may be near impossible to do a fast tilt without other inputs. Not trying to John, I've just got into the game and love it but I don't really see the reason for the pushback against the changes. The first cool argument I heard was in the video with the jump baiting based on DI
While I will confess that, as someone who is just looking to pick up and play some Melee without needing to practice fighting input differences within muscle memory, I would rather just turn off tap jump and go if the option were available. That in mind, this video is super awesome. I was not aware of the universal 4f tap jump buffer, which has made WD>utilt so difficult for me, nor the fact that, specifically that hitstun from throws uses a 4f tap jump buffer as well! ...wait, is there a 4f buffer for tap jump while performing airborne actions as well?
Great video. I can completely understand the frustration of coming to Melee with not being able to disable tap jump. I also turn it off in each game that allows it. However, I feel like certain techs, (spacie techs in particular) are way easier to perform with tap jump to the point where I never put it on for them in PM or P+. Basically, there are upsides and downsides for it but in the end, like Ginger said, it takes lots of practice to get used to. Note: I suck at this game ;)
@@noodletribunal9793 jumping with X and Y out of hitstun has an absurd 20f buffer. Jumping with X or Y out of throw stun? Has no buffer Tap jump has an inherent 3f hold buffer so it's easy to use it to get out of throws
Tap jump isn't something that can't be overcome by any means, but as someone who works as a software developer and has worked on games on the side as a hobby I think custom controls should be the standard, not the exception. game design leads envision a game, a way it should be played, then it is developed, but the controls for how it should be played? Everyone should be able to decide that, beyond the usage of a controller that provides an unfair advantage. For anyone who thinks custom controls would provide an unfair advantage against those who don't use them, to that I say claw grip, or the box. There are already versatile control options available to play this game, each with their own disadvantages. Not using tap jump makes things such as oos options harder anyway. I just think versatility is always a pro, and in that sense, melee is outdated. (PM player here btw).
Except vanilla melee doesn't have custom controls. At some point mods take away the heart of the original. Many people including me think that custom controls are too meta changing and it's no longer "melee".
Ginger, can you talk more about turn around mechanics? Later games make it easy using reverse aerial rush or similar. What's the best way to do reverse aerials or reverse tilts without losing your momentum or dashing the opposite direction?
ItsCrisp ik I'm not ginger, but in a large majority of situations where I want to put out an approaching back air, I wavedash back with the character and then jump out if that pretty quickly to maintain momentum. With Jigglypuff you can generally just drift, but with Mario, DK, Samus, etc. I usually inplement this
You put yourself back into your initial dash animation by cancelling your run with a wavedash, and you can turnaround jump from the initial dash. It’s not very smooth and is my #1 gripe with melee, as we sacrifice some options not having a better way.
I was used to having tap jump off when I started Melee, but I grew out of the concern over time. I'm very pleased that every effort to make a standardized control switch has fallen on its face... It would change the game too much, and it would hurt players in the long run.
@@Pslamist This is false. So what if people rely on having tap jump off? It's a stupid mechanic. And it's also not true that majors don't allow mods to the game, the main one being UCF. Not sure why you wouldn't want the option.
@@Pslamist Thanks for the reply! I see what you mean about tournaments, it would be pretty bad if someone learned melee using tap jump off and then went to a no mods allowed tournament. It would be great if quality of life mods were standard, but unless that happens it's better to just learn tap jump if you think you might ever compete.
I can see it being annoying but I've come around to liking it, It's much easier to do instant short hop aerials flicking the stick up, you don't get as much drift but without claw it's the fastest consistent way
As a keyboard player, I literally have no way (aside from a very specific-use modifier that I don't use for this purpose) I cannot do a "slight" movement of the "control stick". Because of this, I've had to get used to buffering the "stick" into the up position when I do things like wavedashing, or after jumping and then landing. I'm very used to it now, but there are times where I'd want to do it without needing the buffer
@@louiscolangelo2082 I don't go to or play in tournaments at all. For the longest time I just played against 20XX AI level 9 just learning as much as I could and having fun doing technical stuff. At this point with Slippi + Rollback, I have been playing a bit more online and already learning a lot from there as well. It's harder of course, and sometimes easier, but the best part is that it's a lot more fun
There are mod packs that allow to turn off tap jump such as 20XX, but almost all tournament rulesets call for a vanilla melee to keep everything fair for everyone (with the exception of UCF which can be controversial to an extent) so having a mod to turn off tap jump makes it not "vanilla melee" which can make the hardcore players not happy since newer players are practicing in a way that isn't "tournament legal" which I agree with personally, people can have potential to go far in melee but they practice without tap jump just to save a little time of getting used to it, so when they go to their first tournament they suddenly feel like they're playing a different game and move on, wasting a lot of untapped potential
This had a lot of good information, but I heard a lot of "what it is" rather than "why it's a good thing that it can't be turned off." And as a result, I'm still in the camp that anything tap jump accomplishes mechanically speaking can be accomplished easier and more reliably under pressure without tap jump.
This video wasn't made to make some sort of argument against having the option to turn off tap jump. I could definitely make that video, and your take would be disproven pretty easily, but I just wanted to make something informative and helpful.
It makes previously difficult tech skill less difficult. Difficulty to perform certain actions directly weighs into the risk of doing said action. By changing the risk involved in doing an option (by changing how consistent it is to perform that option) you're directly (and artificially) impacting the meta of the game.
@@SsbmGinger So simply stating" it made the game hard for a long time and I put in a ton of time to get around it, so I think others should also have to do that". It is bad for the same way tripping was bad in brawl, it simply is an element that hinders one's ability to play with intentionality and adds artificial difficulty. the idea of a fighting game is to outplay your opponent, not outplay the game. the meta of the game is shaped around the top players, who already have put years into the game don't mess up already, this change with be nothing but positive if it were to happen.
@@dinkleberg64 You and almost everyone I see complain about TJ/L-Cancel tend to pose either a subjective argument or are incorrect about nearly everything in the post. You seem as if you suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect. *Captain Obvious, every competitive game is about "Outplaying" your opponent and many games go about this "feat" in different ways.* Try to refrain from placing every game into your ignorant and narrow-minded perspective on how they should work. Tap Jump is *nowhere near the detriment that the Tripping mechanic within Brawl is.* Tripping *completely disables you from doing anything other than recovering from the ground.* Tap Jump does not mechanically prevent or disable any Base Action. You, having the coordination of a cockroach is what prevents you from being able to Ever-So-Slightly Tilt the control-stick Upward while simultaneously pressing the Attack Button. Do not blame jumping for your inability to input a command. That command only comes as a hinderance to you because you are not coordinated enough to execute a moderately difficult set of inputs in a small window of time. I will give you 30 seconds to guess what the only answer to that issue is. Super Smash Bros. Melee is not a *Traditional Board Game.* Physical Execution (and by extension the technical aspect of a command) is very much a part of "outplaying your opponent." Even things such as the L/Z-Cancel are similar to how some Racing Games give players a speed boost at the beginning of the race as a reward for possessing the Timing/Execution/Precision required to perfectly execute a command (omfg arbitrary input??? in my game???!) at the designated time. To be honest, no one even needs to convince you or make an argument for why Tap Jump is allowed. The reasoning behind this being that the existence of these types of elements can be justified solely and entirely based on what (insert game's name) competitive community decides. Tap Jump will persist because it is part of the Vanilla experience *and* because the powers that be have made the decision to maintain that specific part of the Vanilla experience. If you are going to have a twitter/reddit meltdown about it then you are free to play the three other official smashes + a plethora of mods that all offer Smash gameplay with the option to toggle Tap Jump. Do yourself and everyone who has the honor of playing audience to you a favor and stop recycling the same misinformed rants. It is incredibly boring reading the same exact nonsense.
this is a fantastic video for newcomers, well made! I can't help but notice you mentioned the kadano video in the description/at the end of the video, but never actually linked it. If anyone is interested, this was the one he was referring to: th-cam.com/video/03qCJ_Ikbho/w-d-xo.html
Salut tous le monde, ont peu désactivé le tap-jump avec la R0M 20xx de melee, bien à vous les potes. Après je ne pense pas que sa soi conseillé car dans la plupart des compétitions il ne laisse le tap-jump même si on peu gravé la R0M est la lire sur une game cube. Perso le tap-jump horrible.
Let's be honest, tap jump is garbage 99% of the time. I'm not an ultimate zoomer, I had already reached double digits by the time Melee came out and I've always found it to be annoying. Sure, you can say git gud and you'd be right to say that we can play around its existence, I still think that ideal controls should not require you to "play around" them to perform basic actions. Removing tap jump from future games has been one of the few very good ideas Nintendo had about this franchise.
I love using tap jump and I wholeheartedly disagree that it is garbage. Being able to do aerials quickly after a double jump, shine turn around down air, double lasers from ledge, just to name a few, are much easier to do with tap jump for me than it is with x and y. Up b/smash out of shield and run up smash are the most practical with tap jump given how melee's engine works.
@@aprfinancing481 That's completely fine, most players see that as a hindrance more than anything but of course there are people that love it,as you do. All I'm saying is that having the option to disable it is better than not having it.
it's possible to do, and you can certainly do it. you'd just be handicapping yourself because you won't know how to play the game on actual console in actual person where this isn't possible to do.
@@jmarvins Thats what Im talking about. I dont understand why the option is there to turn it off but thats nto allowed in tournament. It doesnt hurt anybody and if anything it takes options away from the person that wants it off, but doesnt affect the other play at all.
@@malonee It's not legal in tourney cause it's not THERE in tourney, unlike Dolphin. There's nothing you can do to a gamecube to remap your controller without hacks. Just because it's built into dolphin doesn't mean it's built into console
@@malonee That's why i said "without hacks;" obviously 20xx can do all sorts of things. Nobody runs vanilla melee, but we want game mechanics to be as close to vanilla as is possible, including controls - except for things that standardize controller quality as UCF provides. The entire idea is that whether or not UCF was there we could hypothetically play exactly the same games of melee with the same inputs (assuming everyone had perfect controllers). It's the same reason that we don't allow you to do any other non-standard things that 20xx allows in tourney. You can't turn on auto L-cancel either, even though you could make the exact same argument as you're making now about disable tap jump. We have the power to do it but we want to keep things vanilla as possible. Maybe this will change when the dam breaks after frozen stadium gets standardized.
@@nicememe8608 Nah, they're going to run into T-Spinning and then quit. They're one of those people who struggle to play games that have both a high physical+mental component to them such as Melee and Tekken. You know how that goes. (=
nah it's p practical when executing certain tech skills. and with the way melee's engine works, moves such as up b/smash out of shield is most practical with tap jump.
man's just explained the key to falco... laser uptilt
Thanks for sharing that you can buffer turn around up tilt!
Hello Kosmic
One of the few times I was on your stream I heard you said you played melee, that’s awesome dude
Sup epic gamer
4:40 the fact that just not full hopping “needs a lot of practice” is the most melee thing I’ve ever heard
to be fair its in the context of a ledgedash turnaround invincible uptilt so its understandable that it would take a lot of practice
Depends on the character lol, shorthopping is only kinda hard to get consistently with Fox
@Graybat12 also sheik, samus, iceclimbers, Pikachu, pichu, ness, and kirby
Hi :) I got used to slightly holding up barely for up tilt. I didn't know people hold full up for tilts
That's the reason they are called tilts anyway. Because you tilt the stick instead of moving it all the way
Not all people do. But this is a good way how to learn to do them fast
As a falcon main, i use wd to up tilt
Yeah I'll for sure try this technique out if wd more often. Could save 1/3 of a second from the normal setup by being able to just smash the direction instead. Will have to test it out to see for sure though.
This doesn’t work in smash 4 or ultimate and it perturbs me sooooo much
this literally unlocked for me so many things that i was trying to do but wasn't fast enough to do with the jump button like turnaround uptilt, shine dair edgeguards, and shine bair
Good stuff! I love seeing all the new blood entering Melee.
a an ultimate player, this is really useful :)
Dear new players! If you like Spacies. Tap jump is used by a LOT of players to very quickly and easily jump out of shine for an areal. This is most useful with Falco's Shine Jump Areals like Shine Bair. Its much easier to use tapjump for Shine Bair/Dair (cStick) than it is to use a jump button. For most people anyway. Melee gets way more comfortable with time! And soon it will all feel like second nature and you'll be shmoovin in no time!
Who would have guessed that Post-Melee smash players would have difficulty tilting a control stick... interesting.
So weird
Call me crazy but the way I up tilt any time is to just semi stick up. Takes practice but its good too
It’s kind of like the same logic as the muscle memory to learning a dash back laser
That’s not just crazy, it’s next level crazy
Right? I got used to holding the controller a certain way that gets me that semi up or down height, ever since 64. Down tilts actually come out a little faster cuz it skips the squat animation.
I do that too except when I do dtilt into uptilt when I kinda go on a angle, like I go up into the corner of the thing
Same lol i didn't even know you could do this stuff
Much appreciated ginger. These are some of my favorites videos of yours. I have gotten the ability to play real melee as I don’t have the means but the fact that tap jump is always on I often considered a disadvantage to playing it. It always puzzled me how pros are able to have such control over the game despite it. I understood the buffering idea at a basic level but it still seemed like an annoyance more than anything. The fact that it actually can add to the game at an extremely deep level to elevate it at a professional level is really sick and something I never knew. Super cool video
Yeah, like everyone else saying it here, I've just learned to tilt the stick up slowly or buffer up in some instances (like dair > uptilt). It's a thing that takes some practice, just like doing late aerials/crossups and ledgedashes.
this is even useful if you're already been playing melee and need a refresher on some of the behind the scenes mechanics. thanks Ginger!
This was an incredible analytical video of tap jump buffering and useage. I really enjoyed it thank you! Gotta love how deep melee is.
Love the vid ginger....I think the dead-zone for the analog stick is also a good thing to go over....you can show people how the dead-zone works and how far you can actually tilt up before it registers a jump input.
in case you’re curios, brawl added custom controls including disabling tap jump
one distinction though is that brawl didnt have tilt sticks, instead it’d just do a neutral attack if i remember correctly. Smash 4 added proper tilt sticks
Is There a way to set up tilts in dolphin? It,s killing me
@@elshaddollworld3941 not that im aware of, unless dolphin allows macros to be added in custom controls
@@HaydenTheEeeeeeeeevilEukaryote is not possible already know how to do it manually but it's hard to get used to it, you rly don't have it easy in melee lmao
Buffering shield tilt left or right is what I use when landing on platforms for shield drops. I think this would be a good video for getting used to that as well.
Huh I didn't actually know you could buffer tap jump that's really good to know
Same in pm
Tap jump is also important for certain character's short hop double aerials. I know for Link, you have a 2 frame window to input the jump using x or y after SH bair, but when buffering using tap jump it becomes a 4 frame window, which is more consistent.
Glad to see your video about this topic.
damageflytop prevents 20F buffer jump on correct timing, but accidentally doublejump comes out on frame 60 or 61 in throw-stun too. di to off-stage with falco, and input of 20f buffer jump or 4f true buffer tap jump, then falco doublejumps on frame 60 or 61. additionally in 20f "buffer", you don't need to keep tapping joystick.
the bit with the shffl aerial into uptilt practice suggestion seems like its gonna be suuuper useful for getting good at that, thank you :D
I up tilt with half stick and jump out of stun by mashing and it's not consistent at all. Thank you so much for this Ginger!
Love that these type of videos are becoming relevant and what not again
embrace the tap jump. shine OOS with tap jump, SHFFL with tap jump, SH laser with tap jump.
(dont do this, i learned all these techniques this way and had to relearn all of it a year later)
Great explanation dude, please do more of these lessons, you are very clear on these topics
thanks for being so friendly to the new guys!
This is how I up tilt as well. Great video man. Rootin for ya in the next tourney
I still can't believe that this is not obvious to people. Then again, people are used to having a buffer on everything. This is a good example of why not having a buffer on everything is a good thing! I land with my next angle every time. Like forward if I want to shield drop after an L cancel or whatever other actions. If there were a buffer on everything I would be forced to roll instead.
In ultimate I turn tap jump off but whenever I go back to older games, brawl, melee, even sm4sh, I go back to tap jump. Idk why but I feel tap jump feels much better in the older games but not ultimate. Maybe it's just me
I never disabled tap jump in future smash games because of the Melee muscle memory to buffer tilts during ending lag.
Tap jump is also essential for techniques such as jump cancel up smash w Fox. Just flick your stick up
The most useful thing for tap jump is shine down air, it becomes so much easier to perform. Another thing I use is to regrab the ledge.
People can adapt to tap jump, it just take some time with no problem
and shine grab is a lot easier with tap jump imo
You could also list some of the benefits with tap jump. For example some ledge stuff that you might find easier with tap jump.
Keep up the good work!
Up tilting after aerials using a semi-tilt should be mentioned too! It allows a tilt without being a jump input. Very precise, but makes your move choice more flexible.
You don't need to tilt at all. After an aerial you can just hold up (but don't start less than 4 frames before recovering).
wow, I really didn’t know about those things. I thought the only way to do it was to semi tilt the stick.
I loved the concept of this video. I would really like to see more explanations on motions/inputs on the simple things ^^
Bruh I can't run away from the super jump inputs even in smash lmao
Yeah I’ve always played PM because of tap jump. Right now I’m brute forcing just getting good at it
I wanna mention that there are more downsides to turning off tapjump in melee.
2 techniques come to mind that are essencially the same. Upsmash Out of Shield and Dash Upsmash.
Both of these utilize the jumpsquat frames to make you able to upsmash where you otherwise couldn't.
With regular grip on the gamecube controller going from X/Y to C-Up can be taxing on your hands and so a popular way of doing this is with tapjump instead of X/Y.
Characters such as Fox and Sheik only have a 2 frame window to work with.
While I think the current control scheme may add more technical skill to the game I think it's always important to make any games controls customizable. This is because not only may someone have a disability and not be able to play a certain way but also everyone's brain works differently and some things may be more intuitive for them. Also if you don't have good motor control in your fingers it may be near impossible to do a fast tilt without other inputs. Not trying to John, I've just got into the game and love it but I don't really see the reason for the pushback against the changes. The first cool argument I heard was in the video with the jump baiting based on DI
ur a blessing ginger ;o
i hope newer players get to see this :D i'll be sure to share around :)
While I will confess that, as someone who is just looking to pick up and play some Melee without needing to practice fighting input differences within muscle memory, I would rather just turn off tap jump and go if the option were available.
That in mind, this video is super awesome. I was not aware of the universal 4f tap jump buffer, which has made WD>utilt so difficult for me, nor the fact that, specifically that hitstun from throws uses a 4f tap jump buffer as well!
...wait, is there a 4f buffer for tap jump while performing airborne actions as well?
No, all options have their own animation lengths.
Great video. I can completely understand the frustration of coming to Melee with not being able to disable tap jump. I also turn it off in each game that allows it. However, I feel like certain techs, (spacie techs in particular) are way easier to perform with tap jump to the point where I never put it on for them in PM or P+. Basically, there are upsides and downsides for it but in the end, like Ginger said, it takes lots of practice to get used to.
Note: I suck at this game ;)
ngl, im kinda waiting for the PM rollback matchmaking to come around
Sick content, keep it up ging!
Question: does jumping with X/Y have the same buffers as with tap? (out of hit/throwstun)
Yeah they do. Just press and hold it towards the end of hitstun iirc
nope tap jump exclusive
lol nice conflicting answers guys.
just try goin into 20XX and find out for yourself since we not getting answers
@@noodletribunal9793 jumping with X and Y out of hitstun has an absurd 20f buffer.
Jumping with X or Y out of throw stun? Has no buffer
Tap jump has an inherent 3f hold buffer so it's easy to use it to get out of throws
Tap jump isn't something that can't be overcome by any means, but as someone who works as a software developer and has worked on games on the side as a hobby I think custom controls should be the standard, not the exception. game design leads envision a game, a way it should be played, then it is developed, but the controls for how it should be played? Everyone should be able to decide that, beyond the usage of a controller that provides an unfair advantage. For anyone who thinks custom controls would provide an unfair advantage against those who don't use them, to that I say claw grip, or the box. There are already versatile control options available to play this game, each with their own disadvantages. Not using tap jump makes things such as oos options harder anyway. I just think versatility is always a pro, and in that sense, melee is outdated. (PM player here btw).
Except vanilla melee doesn't have custom controls. At some point mods take away the heart of the original. Many people including me think that custom controls are too meta changing and it's no longer "melee".
Thanks ginger.
I appreciate what you do.
Ginger, can you talk more about turn around mechanics? Later games make it easy using reverse aerial rush or similar. What's the best way to do reverse aerials or reverse tilts without losing your momentum or dashing the opposite direction?
ItsCrisp ik I'm not ginger, but in a large majority of situations where I want to put out an approaching back air, I wavedash back with the character and then jump out if that pretty quickly to maintain momentum. With Jigglypuff you can generally just drift, but with Mario, DK, Samus, etc. I usually inplement this
You put yourself back into your initial dash animation by cancelling your run with a wavedash, and you can turnaround jump from the initial dash. It’s not very smooth and is my #1 gripe with melee, as we sacrifice some options not having a better way.
shoutouts to hbox and rishi who EXCLUSIVELY jump with tap, even in wavedashing and waveshining
I was used to having tap jump off when I started Melee, but I grew out of the concern over time. I'm very pleased that every effort to make a standardized control switch has fallen on its face... It would change the game too much, and it would hurt players in the long run.
Would you mind me asking asking you how being able to turn tap jump off might hurt players?
@@Pslamist Godzilla tried to read that and had a fucking stroke
@@Pslamist This is false. So what if people rely on having tap jump off? It's a stupid mechanic. And it's also not true that majors don't allow mods to the game, the main one being UCF. Not sure why you wouldn't want the option.
@@Pslamist Thanks for the reply!
I see what you mean about tournaments, it would be pretty bad if someone learned melee using tap jump off and then went to a no mods allowed tournament.
It would be great if quality of life mods were standard, but unless that happens it's better to just learn tap jump if you think you might ever compete.
@@brendanswords4659 - Sorry; I think I was tired when I wrote that.
Thank you Ginger
I primarily use Y for jump but tap jump for faster actions out of jump from shine
wow i didnt even know about jump buffering
How you gonna tell us you got notches and then not plug the dude who modded your controller. SMH 🤦🏾♂️
I can see it being annoying but I've come around to liking it, It's much easier to do instant short hop aerials flicking the stick up, you don't get as much drift but without claw it's the fastest consistent way
@SsbmGinger do you know the value of your up tilt notch? I assume you were referring to mod on your controller right?
Great video! Now where is the gecko code?
As a keyboard player, I literally have no way (aside from a very specific-use modifier that I don't use for this purpose) I cannot do a "slight" movement of the "control stick". Because of this, I've had to get used to buffering the "stick" into the up position when I do things like wavedashing, or after jumping and then landing. I'm very used to it now, but there are times where I'd want to do it without needing the buffer
Interesting. What is going to tournaments with a keyboard like?
@@louiscolangelo2082 I don't go to or play in tournaments at all. For the longest time I just played against 20XX AI level 9 just learning as much as I could and having fun doing technical stuff. At this point with Slippi + Rollback, I have been playing a bit more online and already learning a lot from there as well. It's harder of course, and sometimes easier, but the best part is that it's a lot more fun
Why can you do basically everything with melee, besides giving it an option to turn off tab jump?
There are mod packs that allow to turn off tap jump such as 20XX, but almost all tournament rulesets call for a vanilla melee to keep everything fair for everyone (with the exception of UCF which can be controversial to an extent) so having a mod to turn off tap jump makes it not "vanilla melee" which can make the hardcore players not happy since newer players are practicing in a way that isn't "tournament legal" which I agree with personally, people can have potential to go far in melee but they practice without tap jump just to save a little time of getting used to it, so when they go to their first tournament they suddenly feel like they're playing a different game and move on, wasting a lot of untapped potential
How do I break the bad habit of using stick to jump out of shine
I wonder what melee would be like if we could have custom button mapping
i did not know that you could angle your shield
tap jump is something ive despised about this game since i was little. so many accidental jumps
This had a lot of good information, but I heard a lot of "what it is" rather than "why it's a good thing that it can't be turned off." And as a result, I'm still in the camp that anything tap jump accomplishes mechanically speaking can be accomplished easier and more reliably under pressure without tap jump.
This video wasn't made to make some sort of argument against having the option to turn off tap jump. I could definitely make that video, and your take would be disproven pretty easily, but I just wanted to make something informative and helpful.
we have a tap jump toggle in 20xx, what is one good reason to not just incorporate it???
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It makes previously difficult tech skill less difficult. Difficulty to perform certain actions directly weighs into the risk of doing said action. By changing the risk involved in doing an option (by changing how consistent it is to perform that option) you're directly (and artificially) impacting the meta of the game.
@@SsbmGinger So simply stating" it made the game hard for a long time and I put in a ton of time to get around it, so I think others should also have to do that". It is bad for the same way tripping was bad in brawl, it simply is an element that hinders one's ability to play with intentionality and adds artificial difficulty. the idea of a fighting game is to outplay your opponent, not outplay the game. the meta of the game is shaped around the top players, who already have put years into the game don't mess up already, this change with be nothing but positive if it were to happen.
@@dinkleberg64 You and almost everyone I see complain about TJ/L-Cancel tend to pose either a subjective argument or are incorrect about nearly everything in the post.
You seem as if you suffer
from the Dunning-Kruger effect.
*Captain Obvious, every competitive game is about "Outplaying" your opponent and many games go about this "feat" in different ways.*
Try to refrain from placing every game into your ignorant and narrow-minded perspective on how they should work.
Tap Jump is *nowhere near the detriment that the Tripping mechanic within Brawl is.*
Tripping *completely disables you from doing anything other than recovering from the ground.*
Tap Jump does not mechanically prevent or disable any Base Action.
You, having the coordination of a cockroach is what prevents you from being able to Ever-So-Slightly Tilt the control-stick Upward while simultaneously pressing the Attack Button.
Do not blame jumping for your inability to input a command.
That command only comes as a hinderance to you because you are not coordinated enough to execute a moderately difficult set of inputs in a small window of time.
I will give you 30 seconds to guess what the only answer to that issue is.
Super Smash Bros. Melee is not a *Traditional Board Game.*
Physical Execution (and by extension the technical aspect of a command) is very much a part of "outplaying your opponent."
Even things such as the L/Z-Cancel are similar to how some Racing Games give players a speed boost at the beginning of the race as a reward for possessing the Timing/Execution/Precision required to perfectly execute a command (omfg arbitrary input??? in my game???!) at the designated time.
To be honest, no one even needs to convince you or make an argument for why Tap Jump is allowed.
The reasoning behind this being that the existence of these types of elements can be justified solely and entirely based on what (insert game's name) competitive community decides.
Tap Jump will persist because it is part of the Vanilla experience *and* because the powers that be have made the decision to maintain that specific part of the Vanilla experience.
If you are going to have a twitter/reddit meltdown about it then you are free to play the three other official smashes + a plethora of mods that all offer Smash gameplay with the option to toggle Tap Jump.
Do yourself and everyone who has the honor of playing audience to you a favor and stop recycling the same misinformed rants.
It is incredibly boring reading the same exact nonsense.
Lmao this dude types up a novel about how smart he thinks he is and caps it off about how the guy he is responding to is "having a meltdown"
Thanks for the info ginger -i still can't dash dance well lmao-
I just don’t get how to shorthop in general, let alone shufll. I don’t get how people can do it so easy
Did you ever figure it out
this is a fantastic video for newcomers, well made! I can't help but notice you mentioned the kadano video in the description/at the end of the video, but never actually linked it. If anyone is interested, this was the one he was referring to:
th-cam.com/video/03qCJ_Ikbho/w-d-xo.html
I'm sorry! I totally forgot to post the link LOL, it is in the description now as well. And thank you!
Guys can someone tell me how to set up tilts in dolphin for melee?
How did you get your controller inputs on screen? Thank you
Are the notches you mean The ones that come on a GameCube controller
I just buffer up in another animation
sometimes i feel like the only man in the world who uses tap jump
Wait then do these players use x/y out of shine? Damn that must destroy hands tho right?
How the f do you turn it off
how should i play birdman so i look cooler than everyone else
Thanks mate
i actually prefer tap jump on 😅
Turning off tap jump is a stupid idea.
No
@@josephf.2126 yeah
Salut tous le monde, ont peu désactivé le tap-jump avec la R0M 20xx de melee, bien à vous les potes.
Après je ne pense pas que sa soi conseillé car dans la plupart des compétitions il ne laisse le tap-jump même si on peu gravé la R0M est la lire sur une game cube. Perso le tap-jump horrible.
How do i unlock all characters and save it on slippi dolphin
Your characters are all already unlocked on slippi melee as long as you have all the cheats enabled.
They got filtered
11 minute explanation of how to not have the game's controls fight you in the specific scenarios where you can actually avoid it lole
U could turn it off in brawl and smash 4
Understand FRAMES
I hate that tap jump has input buffer but not normal jump like what the fuck
Not beeing able to change your controls at all is one of the only big flaws of this game.
Let's be honest, tap jump is garbage 99% of the time. I'm not an ultimate zoomer, I had already reached double digits by the time Melee came out and I've always found it to be annoying. Sure, you can say git gud and you'd be right to say that we can play around its existence, I still think that ideal controls should not require you to "play around" them to perform basic actions. Removing tap jump from future games has been one of the few very good ideas Nintendo had about this franchise.
I love using tap jump and I wholeheartedly disagree that it is garbage. Being able to do aerials quickly after a double jump, shine turn around down air, double lasers from ledge, just to name a few, are much easier to do with tap jump for me than it is with x and y. Up b/smash out of shield and run up smash are the most practical with tap jump given how melee's engine works.
@@aprfinancing481 That's completely fine, most players see that as a hindrance more than anything but of course there are people that love it,as you do. All I'm saying is that having the option to disable it is better than not having it.
I dont understand why you cant turn it off when 20xx allows you to. It's 2020 so why is it not a possibility when it's clearly able to be
it's possible to do, and you can certainly do it. you'd just be handicapping yourself because you won't know how to play the game on actual console in actual person where this isn't possible to do.
@@jmarvins Thats what Im talking about. I dont understand why the option is there to turn it off but thats nto allowed in tournament. It doesnt hurt anybody and if anything it takes options away from the person that wants it off, but doesnt affect the other play at all.
@@malonee It's not legal in tourney cause it's not THERE in tourney, unlike Dolphin. There's nothing you can do to a gamecube to remap your controller without hacks. Just because it's built into dolphin doesn't mean it's built into console
@@jmarvins They literally run 20xx with ucf on gc. 20xx has it as an option. It's there, it's just not legal. Literally, nobody runs vanilla melee.
@@malonee That's why i said "without hacks;" obviously 20xx can do all sorts of things. Nobody runs vanilla melee, but we want game mechanics to be as close to vanilla as is possible, including controls - except for things that standardize controller quality as UCF provides. The entire idea is that whether or not UCF was there we could hypothetically play exactly the same games of melee with the same inputs (assuming everyone had perfect controllers). It's the same reason that we don't allow you to do any other non-standard things that 20xx allows in tourney. You can't turn on auto L-cancel either, even though you could make the exact same argument as you're making now about disable tap jump. We have the power to do it but we want to keep things vanilla as possible. Maybe this will change when the dam breaks after frozen stadium gets standardized.
They *are* called tilt inputs, after all. Cuz you *tilt* the stick. Just get used to that motion.
Ty
I have a challenge for any one to win a game with only falco utitl using a half of an up press
its really not hard to play with tap jump lol
“I saw the video it was great but this is too much work for me to want to get into a 20 year old smash game” big sad :(
jesus christ i fucking hate tap jump
Not gonna learn a game that I essentially need a degree worth of hours to learn. Especially when some of the stuff could be avoided with a toggle.
Yeah its not as easy as the later games for sure. It takes a lot more effort to improve in Melee but it's so dope when you make progress in it 🙌
Maybe Tetris would be a better fit for you. Good luck
@@nicememe8608 Nah, they're going to run into T-Spinning and then quit.
They're one of those people who struggle to play games that have both a high physical+mental component to them such as Melee and Tekken.
You know how that goes. (=
Just learn to move your controlstick slightly ... lmao
Tap jump is mostly not very practical I feel like this video is slightly disingenuous
How exactly is it not practical?
nah it's p practical when executing certain tech skills. and with the way melee's engine works, moves such as up b/smash out of shield is most practical with tap jump.
Tap jump is fucking cringe. But i don’t really care Lmao.
Lmao just learn the game ult players
Not being able to get past accidently tap jumping is actually pathetic