Since almost 100% of USA now have smart meters, wouldn't it make more sense to give the fire dept. the ability to shut the meter off either through the utility company or provide them a keyed interlock built into the meter base/meter or the ability to shutoff via wireless interface
Yeah... good luck getting ahold of somebody at the Utility Co in the middle of the night! 🤣 However, most (or at least many) "smart meters" have internal disconnects, and can be remotely opened by the utility, usually for things like non-payment. Recently ran into that here in west Texas, on a house I was working on (new construction, but meter, main & panels were set for construction power). Came in one morning to start work, and had no power. Checked the meter, and it was on and flashing, but it also said "OPN" (open). A call to the owner revealed that a bill payment had been missed. 😅. Utility restored it within an hour...
I live in the north east, been doing electrical work for 42 years and speaking from past experience, any breaker located outside in any type of enclosure in our environment will be covered in corrosion in a few short years! That is why and always has been the reason for main breaker panels to be mounted in the dwelling and not on the exterior like it is in southern/western states! This is a bad code adjustment by the NEC period. Not to mention that the breakers of today are of a far less quality being mass produced in foreign countries with inferior quality control. I keep referring to breakers because that is what indeed will come installed in any type of resi. combo unit and to add a separate weatherproof disconnect will add a significant cost. I'm sorry, In my humble opinion this code is not only unnecessary but creates a potentially more dangerous situation of actually starting a fire!
Obviously you've never pulled a meter under load, or tried to "smash" a meter that is energized! Very bad things can happen! Emergency disconnects are easy to install, and perfectly safe, IF done correctly. No additional hazards are imposed. And if your winters are so terribly harsh as to deteriorate a switch enclosure so qiuckly, how do your utility's meter sockets and other outdoor equipment survive, out in the weather? Perhaps a stainless steel enclosure would be prudent?
@@Calico5string1962the building is on fire at that point and im pretty sure that the fireman covered in protective gear is not worried about pulling a residential meter or putting an axe through it. And who told you that you can't pull a residential meter load? Your thinking of inserting the meter under load, thats different...
That was a very clean explanation of 230.85(B)(3) 230.85(B)(2) Which is the way I like to live. How I hate 4 ought SER Cable!! You can pull it all day if you like it.
Like you said, firefighters have been pulling meters for years. Everyone is so soft these days. Pulling the meter on a 1 or 2 family house under a +/- 20A load is not that dangerous. There's no reason a properly trained person with gear cant do it. More baby proofing.
230.85 Emergency Disconnects. For one- and two-family dwelling units, all service conductors shall terminate in disconnecting means having a short-circuit current rating equal to or greater than the available fault current, installed in a readily accessible outdoor location. If more than one disconnect is provided, they shall be grouped. Each disconnect shall be one of the following: (1) Service disconnects marked as follows: EMERGENCY DISCONNECT, SERVICE DISCONNECT.. if I was you inspector I would be handing you a orange ucc sticker... update your labeling and use the correct terms!
so what wire do you run from the disconnect to the main panel SER or SEU? also do the ground rod #4 wire, water line, and gas line, connected to the disconnect or the main panel?
Provide an exterior emergency service disconnect, now creating a need for a 4 wire sub panel for the interior…..what happens to the existing 3 wire SE type cable to elec. clothes dryers and kitchen ranges?
Great info! Thanks. I recently did a meter socket change-out (the old one was badly corroded) as part of a breaker panel replacement (replacing on old FPE panel inside the house). The meter & service drop was located on a pole about 70' from the residence, with UG service conductors going to the old FPE equipment. I relocated a new Square-D panel (with 150A main) to the outside, immediately adjacent to the old inside panel (BTW, the old FPE panel had NO main breaker!) Anyway... when the utility arrived to pull the meter so I could do the work, they informed me I was now required to install a disconnect on the pole, immediately below their meter. I explained that the new panel had a main, which would also serve as the service/emergency disconnect. They didn't care... they said THEIR new policy was to have a disconnecting means (i.e. "emergency disconnect") located AT their meter. I can't say I disagreed with their rationale, but it was a surprise to me (and I had never done work in this particular electric co-op's area before). It wasn't a big deal to install it (the old meter can was coming off anyway), but did end up costing the owner some additional money for the additional materials (I gave him a deal on the labor, since it wasn't previously known). So this new switch became the "Emergency Disconnect, Not service Equipment" (with no neutral-ground bond), and the new exterior house main became the "Service disconnect" (WITH the neutral-ground bond & ground electrode, as it was originally).
Thanks Ryan, you helped clarify some of the issues I was having with 230.85. I'm teaching a first year apprentice class and figured that with the disconnect outside you would need to run fully rated conductors into the panel. I also was thinking that with the "Emergency Disconnect" and since it wasn't a service disconnect that you would need to change the 3 wire cable to 4. As long as the panel had a main breaker.
For option (3) this could be great for any whole house generator upgrade. In the past, we installed a service rated ATS outside, then separate the N-G at the main panel and pull new wires with a ground included. If I understand this correctly, we don't need to do any of that anymore. Just as long as we install the service rated ATS with internal N-G in and put a sticker on it that says emergency disconnect, not service equipment?
In my experience in Massachusetts, even on new builds we try to go with option 3 if the panel is directly behind the meter enclosure. The SEU is much easier to install. Also on existing service changes we often had existing range and dryer circuits that we "couldn't" replace, so we had to maintain the MBJ in the panel to comply.
We get rid of the section that allows you to tape bare neutral conductors for existing ranges and dryers. Therefore we must land in the service equipment or replace the cable. That is why we try to make the panel the service equipment, not the meter when doing replacements.@@coreyfranco7060
The disconnect at the (outside) main panel is common in California. In fact, it's common to find ALL circuit breakers outside in the main panel.. Regarding locking the panel, would that violate the "readily accessible" intent of the code?
Not knowledgeable about this stuff at all but would like some clarification based on information from a HVAC tech. I have a service disconnect to my condenser that's a breaker box outside next to the unit. Do i have to have a service disconnect inside for the handler (does not have line of sight to the outside disconnect)?
Not sure if I understand this Why bother with service disconnect outside the house. In case emergency fire fighter just pull off the meter. This will kill power to the whole house
So, I do a panel swap on a single family dwelling and remove an FPE panel, and install a new Square D QO panel. I now HAVE TO install an emergency disconnect after the meter outside, correct?
Cannot agree that pulling a meter is the same as turning off a breaker to a burglar. Most wouldn't take the risk of pulling a meter. All of them would shut off a breaker. Thanks.
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Since almost 100% of USA now have smart meters, wouldn't it make more sense to give the fire dept. the ability to shut the meter off either through the utility company or provide them a keyed interlock built into the meter base/meter or the ability to shutoff via wireless interface
Yeah... good luck getting ahold of somebody at the Utility Co in the middle of the night! 🤣
However, most (or at least many) "smart meters" have internal disconnects, and can be remotely opened by the utility, usually for things like non-payment. Recently ran into that here in west Texas, on a house I was working on (new construction, but meter, main & panels were set for construction power). Came in one morning to start work, and had no power. Checked the meter, and it was on and flashing, but it also said "OPN" (open). A call to the owner revealed that a bill payment had been missed. 😅. Utility restored it within an hour...
You're going to trust that power is cut by a wirelessly transmitted signal vs a physical manual disconnect switch? Come on.
I live in the north east, been doing electrical work for 42 years and speaking from past experience, any breaker located outside in any type of enclosure in our environment will be covered in corrosion in a few short years! That is why and always has been the reason for main breaker panels to be mounted in the dwelling and not on the exterior like it is in southern/western states! This is a bad code adjustment by the NEC period. Not to mention that the breakers of today are of a far less quality being mass produced in foreign countries with inferior quality control. I keep referring to breakers because that is what indeed will come installed in any type of resi. combo unit and to add a separate weatherproof disconnect will add a significant cost. I'm sorry, In my humble opinion this code is not only unnecessary but creates a potentially more dangerous situation of actually starting a fire!
True. Just pull the meter off will do the same Some NEC code very stupid in IMO
@@ChiNguyen-wf1qtyea, fire department just gonna smash it with an axe, they aint looking for a breaker
Obviously you've never pulled a meter under load, or tried to "smash" a meter that is energized! Very bad things can happen!
Emergency disconnects are easy to install, and perfectly safe, IF done correctly. No additional hazards are imposed.
And if your winters are so terribly harsh as to deteriorate a switch enclosure so qiuckly, how do your utility's meter sockets and other outdoor equipment survive, out in the weather?
Perhaps a stainless steel enclosure would be prudent?
@@Calico5string1962the building is on fire at that point and im pretty sure that the fireman covered in protective gear is not worried about pulling a residential meter or putting an axe through it. And who told you that you can't pull a residential meter load? Your thinking of inserting the meter under load, thats different...
A meter socket is a means of disconnect by definition
That was a very clean explanation of 230.85(B)(3)
230.85(B)(2)
Which is the way I like to live.
How I hate 4 ought SER Cable!!
You can pull it all day if you like it.
How does this work with multiple dwelling units with panels in each unit?
Thank you for the awesome clarification of 230.85(E)(3) at 10:45.
THANKS FOR ALL YOU DO, I learn soo much from your content.
Could you please state what are local Utah codes for installing a disconnect with home EV chargers? I’m
In LEHI and not an electrician by trade.
Like you said, firefighters have been pulling meters for years. Everyone is so soft these days. Pulling the meter on a 1 or 2 family house under a +/- 20A load is not that dangerous. There's no reason a properly trained person with gear cant do it. More baby proofing.
3:50 - 4:00 👍 really though our everyday heros don't need anymore risk then they are already put up against.
230.85 Emergency Disconnects.
For one- and two-family dwelling units, all service conductors shall terminate in disconnecting means having a short-circuit current rating equal to or greater than the available fault current, installed in a readily accessible outdoor location. If more than one disconnect is provided, they shall be grouped. Each disconnect shall be one of the following:
(1) Service disconnects marked as follows:
EMERGENCY DISCONNECT,
SERVICE DISCONNECT..
if I was you inspector I would be handing you a orange ucc sticker...
update your labeling and use the correct terms!
so what wire do you run from the disconnect to the main panel SER or SEU? also do the ground rod #4 wire, water line, and gas line, connected to the disconnect or the main panel?
Provide an exterior emergency service disconnect, now creating a need for a 4 wire sub panel for the interior…..what happens to the existing 3 wire SE type cable to elec. clothes dryers and kitchen ranges?
5:11 My install made a Ryan Jackson video. It’s a shame the inspector made me redo it cause he thinks the bottom of the transfer switch is a raceway.
That’s the first thing I noticed. I wouldn’t think that would comply either
Why would that matter anyways?
I noticed this as well. You got red tagged on routing load wires of meter base thru transfer switch to line side of the outdoor load center?
If safety is a concern why do they not cover multi family building (3 or more units) with single meter hits?
Yes I've been asking about how this works with multiple units
Great videos. Old dog always learning
Great info! Thanks.
I recently did a meter socket change-out (the old one was badly corroded) as part of a breaker panel replacement (replacing on old FPE panel inside the house). The meter & service drop was located on a pole about 70' from the residence, with UG service conductors going to the old FPE equipment.
I relocated a new Square-D panel (with 150A main) to the outside, immediately adjacent to the old inside panel (BTW, the old FPE panel had NO main breaker!)
Anyway... when the utility arrived to pull the meter so I could do the work, they informed me I was now required to install a disconnect on the pole, immediately below their meter. I explained that the new panel had a main, which would also serve as the service/emergency disconnect. They didn't care... they said THEIR new policy was to have a disconnecting means (i.e. "emergency disconnect") located AT their meter. I can't say I disagreed with their rationale, but it was a surprise to me (and I had never done work in this particular electric co-op's area before).
It wasn't a big deal to install it (the old meter can was coming off anyway), but did end up costing the owner some additional money for the additional materials (I gave him a deal on the labor, since it wasn't previously known).
So this new switch became the "Emergency Disconnect, Not service Equipment" (with no neutral-ground bond), and the new exterior house main became the "Service disconnect" (WITH the neutral-ground bond & ground electrode, as it was originally).
Thanks Ryan, you helped clarify some of the issues I was having with 230.85. I'm teaching a first year apprentice class and figured that with the disconnect outside you would need to run fully rated conductors into the panel. I also was thinking that with the "Emergency Disconnect" and since it wasn't a service disconnect that you would need to change the 3 wire cable to 4. As long as the panel had a main breaker.
For option (3) this could be great for any whole house generator upgrade. In the past, we installed a service rated ATS outside, then separate the N-G at the main panel and pull new wires with a ground included. If I understand this correctly, we don't need to do any of that anymore. Just as long as we install the service rated ATS with internal N-G in and put a sticker on it that says emergency disconnect, not service equipment?
Agreed.
This has been acceptable for a while I think
In my experience in Massachusetts, even on new builds we try to go with option 3 if the panel is directly behind the meter enclosure. The SEU is much easier to install. Also on existing service changes we often had existing range and dryer circuits that we "couldn't" replace, so we had to maintain the MBJ in the panel to comply.
Could you explain the second part of your comment? What does the MB have to do with dryers and ranges?
We get rid of the section that allows you to tape bare neutral conductors for existing ranges and dryers. Therefore we must land in the service equipment or replace the cable. That is why we try to make the panel the service equipment, not the meter when doing replacements.@@coreyfranco7060
The disconnect at the (outside) main panel is common in California. In fact, it's common to find ALL circuit breakers outside in the main panel.. Regarding locking the panel, would that violate the "readily accessible" intent of the code?
Nope, still readily accessible. Very common in the western US.
@@RyanJacksonElectrical Interesting. Thank you for your reply!
Not knowledgeable about this stuff at all but would like some clarification based on information from a HVAC tech. I have a service disconnect to my condenser that's a breaker box outside next to the unit. Do i have to have a service disconnect inside for the handler (does not have line of sight to the outside disconnect)?
Not sure if I understand this
Why bother with service disconnect outside the house. In case emergency fire fighter just pull off the meter. This will kill power to the whole house
What about a 6 unit
I just ran into Emergency Disconnects recently, this has blown my mind
So, I do a panel swap on a single family dwelling and remove an FPE panel, and install a new Square D QO panel. I now HAVE TO install an emergency disconnect after the meter outside, correct?
No
@@coreyfranco7060 Explain why?
Its just a panel swap, not a service re-vamp
That's what I really need too know because it sounds like the inspector can interpret it that way
Call the inspector and ask. Or just do it and beg for forgiveness later...
Cannot agree that pulling a meter is the same as turning off a breaker to a burglar. Most wouldn't take the risk of pulling a meter. All of them would shut off a breaker. Thanks.
Same thing tho
Idk, burglars and punk kids cannot easily pull the meter vs flipping a switch. That is a bad argument.
That doesn't happen in the real. Stupid argument. We have tons of outdoor panels here
In California, the service disconnect is usually located within the outdoor main panel. Usually, all circuit breakers are located outside as well..
great video