Love the channel brother. I am a safety manager in the construction industry. Just purchased the 70E book to study. Will need it as we are building a Data center near Dulles airport Va.
Looking forward to getting the book as I will be testing for JW under 2023 code. As always, love how you keep things concise and clear and use examples from the field. Mike Holt's videos are near unwatchable with all his tangents and fluff. Thanks
On the topic of GFI's for outside units, the "150 V or less to ground' might be mis-interpreted if a unit only has 240 vac feed with no neutral. It does have less than 150v to ground measured from either L1 or L2 to ground but the unit itself only runs on 240vac which is greater than 150v. Further confusing the interpretation is "if supplied by single-phase branch circuit" may be interpreted as 120 vac only branch circuit. I do understand the intent. After several years in my new house my 240 AC sprinkler pump died. When I went to install a new pump I discovered the ground wire was not originally connected to pump motor case. If the motor winding developed a short to case there could have been 120 vac on the case of pump to ground. Same can happen with an air conditioner metal case. The problem with mini-splits and some variable speed compressors is their switching power supplies for three phase inverter VFD have some small EMI bypass capacitors to metal case ground, so they meet EMI (radio interference emissions) specifications. This creates a small amount of current on ground wire that creates the GFI ground fault. Do you really think an A/C service shop replacing an old 240vac outside air conditioner compressor unit is going to get the old non-GFI equipped 240vac feed to outside unit upgraded with GFI breaker in fuse box?
Super. Back when I first started putting in GFCI outlets, three to five out of every ten I bought were bad or died within a month. Even back then I realized that it was a bad idea to have a GFCI in one bathroom protecting another bathrooms outlet, so I put a GFCI outlet wherever required. $40 each back then, but 100% customer satisfaction. They ought to just make every breaker a GFCI/AFCI mechanism, but if they do, I am going to stock up on regular breakers. 💙 T.E.N. Edit: I just removed the GFCI protection from my refrigerator, and installed separate heavy duty 120 volt 20 ampere NON GFCI/AFCI outlets, one in my garage, one in the hall, and one to the sump pump. Now I just plug the vacuum to the hall outlet, no more refrigerator dying, the sump pump will run until the power dies, and the garage one is for the tools and equipment that don't like AFCI protection, and for my RV, which trips an AFCI breaker, but not a GFCI, which was traced to an in vehicle battery charger. 💙 T.E.N.
If the refrigerator or freezer is made before the 90s code change requiring GFCIs on outlets near the sink in kitchens, that fridge or freezer might trip the GFCI. New ones are more likely to withstand tripping a GFCI. You can always use a battery backup pack to buffer the fridge and keep it running if a GFCI trips behind it. You will usually hear a backup beeping if a circuit trips.
21:53 The wording was technically correct either way. Previously, it said "indoor damp and wet locations" meaning "indoor damp locations and wet locations". Now it says "indoor damp or wet locations" meaning "indoor locations which are damp or wet". Technically, "damp and wet locations" could be interpreted as either "(damp locations) and (wet locations)" or as "(damp and wet) locations", but as you said, it actually logically does not make sense for a location to be both damp and wet at the same time, so the phrase clearly must be intended to mean the former, not the latter. It arguably still doesn't hurt to remove the ambiguity if possible, though...
I actually made up an SO cord with cord cap that is 6' long from cord cap face to end of cord for measuring this. I obviously did not terminate the conductors in the cord cap.
Great explanation, Ryan! FWIW, the TIA for 210.8(F) shown was for 2020 NEC®; HVAC could not meet THEIR OWN January 1, 2023, so TIAs and/or Appeals MIGHT extend this to 2025 or 2026.
Definitely interesting. I'm not an electrician but in my state the homeowner is allowed to do their own electrical. Always check your state codes. Last year when I wired a minisplit (one that won't work on GFCI) my state hadn't adopted the 2020 NEC yet (whenever I tackle a large electrical project I always check). However they did so on July 1st this year and interestingly they specifically struck out the requirements for GFCI on outlets over 125V. So someone with sway in the statehouse didn't want to get with the times yet.
Appears to be conflicting GFCI rules. Great that the GFCI for garage ceiling door opener receptacles must be readily accessible why 700# vending machines must have a GFCI built into cord believe within 18" of the male plug. Problem with that when there are rows of vending machines might need a trained rat to reset cord GFCI without getting a hernia moving machine. Thanks for another great vidio. When we wired in areas with more then 3 or 4 vending machines would try to install a panel nearby with a cover that can be locked to make it easier to secure it reset a circuit breaker.
Thanks for taking the time to make these videos for us. They’re Informative and we’ll presented. Tip for your viewers… spa disconnects come with a 50 or 60 amp GFCI breaker at a lower cost than buying the breaker separately. I’ll use those at the HVAC equipment for GFCI protection and the breaker at the panel for overcurrent protection. Especially since 2 pole 20 or 30amp GFCI breakers are turning into unicorns.
@@ChrisMeyersBigPickles222 no, the branch circuit OCPD can't exceed the MOCPD on the nameplate. If you install an OCPD after the breaker in the panel you have made that the panel breaker is not the branch circuit OCPD but rather a feeder OCPD. I'll look at verbiage when I get home but I'm pretty sure this is how it ends up working.
@@ChrisMeyersBigPickles222 You can't exceed the MOCPD rating (or 175% of the Motor compressor rated load current, whichever is greater) for the BRANCH CIRCUIT. If you use an OCPD at the disconnect the feeder OCPD value is irrelevant as part III of article 440 is for BRANCH CIRCUIT short circuit and ground fault protection. See 440.22(A) it specifically says branch circuit. So I am correct that you can't do this type install on the vast majority of the A/C installs.
I replaced an old subpanel next to my main panel with a much bigger Siemens plug in neutral panel, and bought a collection of dual function breakers as well as a few GFCI and AFCI individual ones. I also moved some circuits from the main GE panel to the subpanel as the main panel was maxed out with half size breakers, all of which I removed and replaced the remaining circuits with DF breakers. What I have found is that none of my fridges or freezers (all relatively “quality” brands) like these GFCI breakers. Also my mitre saw cannot tolerate AFCI protection, but its ok with GFCI. So my question is “what, if anything, have appliance makers said or done about the compatibility of their products with these requirements?
Part of the issue with GFCIs is that unlike RCDs (name used in the reset of the world) that are rated with a type (AC, A, B, F) which determines the types of loads it is compatible with. 'AC' type are only really suitable with resistive or motor type loads (probably the type that most GFCIs are), 'A' type can operate with AC or Pulsed DC (rectified ) loads which is fine for most general electronics loads, 'F' type RCD's can work with loads with single phase frequency drives or VSDs. It might be worthwhile doing some investigation into the type of GFCI you have and what is available to find something more appropriate. As far as your circular saw tripping the arc fault there are probably 2 options, 1 is better quality arc fault detection the other is to check the brushes in your saw as that may be arcing more than necessary and being detected as a fault.
Hopefully the cost will go down for the breakers. For my own home, all of my breakers are the dumb style so I was considering swapping all of them and only returning back for the branches with unacceptable nuisance trips. So to get an idea of the cost I looked up the price of breakers at my local big-box store. The price of normal breakers for my box brand were about $7USD. The AFCI for my box brand were about $70USD. That's a full magnitude of order. If (for nice round numbers) I were to replace 10 of them I'd be looking at $700 in material cost alone to replace about $70 worth of breakers as a DIY project. Probably much more to hire a professional (I'm a trained electronics tech, not an electrician).
@@BigGuy8059 Square D (QO) 250V 50A -AFCI- /GFCI Circuit Breaker _only_ $145 on Amazon at the time of this writing. I wonder what the AFCI-combo version will cost; can't find one right now.
I have to laugh when any home owner laments the "expense" of upgrades that might not match their annual beer budget. Further, these are pretty fundamental upgrades, and at least would help avoid a destructive fire, which in turn might trigger an insurance investigation - and if flagrant violations or neglectful maintenance by the owner was demonstrated, your claim might be denied. Heck, a total revamping of a service panel might even get you an insurance rate reduction. A man often credited with advancing the idea of electricity is often credited, but the expression pre-dates him: "Penny wise and pound foolish."
At this point, for dwelling units, it would be more straightforward to list the locations where GFCI is NOT required. I can think of a few, but they require AFCI, so at that point from a cost perspective, you might as well make all 120 and 240V circuits protected with combination AFCI / GFCI breakers.
In the process of wiring my house. Glad the Home Depot has a good return policy because as soon as my inspection is done I'll be returning all the unnecessary gfci breakers and returning $$ to my account!!!
Here is the thing and I agree with many we will end up with a panel with all dual function breakers and that is good in that longer term these will result in a safer installation. But here is the thing especially AFCIs in detecting serial and parallel arc requires both circuit design and algorithms to determine that transients and waveform signals are an arc event. Unfortunately with many non-linear loads with power factors less than one will generate transient waveforms that could trip AFCIs. The likelihood of these tripping in a panel in my view is slightly higher as a panel is a hub for multiple circuits feeding in one place and creates more opportunities for arc like noise to propagate as those circuits could feed multiple non-linear loads. I prefer where possible to fit dual AFCI/GFCI receptacles near key loads which are accessible. That way I can re-set quickly if AFCI trips. Microwaves and coffee machines are particularly good at creating arc like signal waveforms. My microwave does trip once every 3-months. Is it a nuisance?Yes it is but with such infrequent trips I can live with it if the result is a safer installation. That being said manufacturers of devices including white goods should be investing more in circuit design and more comprehensive signal and power quality testing to suppress generation of noisy transients. The AFCI devices are improving but it’s unlikely that they could ever filter out the vast number of transients generated by non-linear load devices. When I upgrade my panels in next few years it will be interesting to see how selective coordination issues with multiple dual function devices work together on a circuit. If an AFCI trips at device location would we get double trips one at source and one at the panel adding to inconvenience.? This is where selective coordination will be important. And certainly I want to be able to see trip curves for AFCI devices or at least some other current characteristic curves that allow selective coordination thereby avoiding double tripping. But this then starts to get into a different realm of electrical engineering design and which is most often done in installations where cost of interruption is very high ( ie industrial and commercial settings).
I used to have a brilliant Square D sales engineer sit at my table at IAEI classes. They used him for a guinea pig years ago. They had him install Square D AFCI breakers for every 120 volt circuit. He told me that no matter where he plugged in the vacuum cleaner it would trip the AFCI'S. Even after purchasing a new vacuum cleaner they still tripped. Excellent Square D engineers tweaked the AFCI breakers where the vacuum cleaner no longer tripped the AFCI circuit breakers. If they prevent fires & save lives we'll worth the money. Think the NEC should mandate them on flimsy office furniture built in power plug in receptacles. Some are well made and some are absolute garbage. Might want to add arc fault protection for office desks. Get scared when I look under some desk and they have a power strip feeding not only their desk but a second power strip plugged in to first strip to supply power in ajoining desk. Of course they all have computers, printers, some a fax machine and a coffee cup warmer, pencil sharpener, calculators etc.
@@JohnThomas-lq5qp I want numbers. I want to see the figures that show that AFCIs have made a substantial difference in the last 20+ years. It's the results that matter, not hopes and wishes.
At the IAEI 8 yearly classes one very intelligent well respected inspector would maybe once every few years go in a rant and say a lot of changes in the NEC are drive by lawyers.
@@jovetj take a look at the work of the NFPA, CPSC and US Fire administration on AFCIs. Many used to say the same thing about GFCIs/RCDs. Not saying there are no false trips but the idea behind it is ultimately about saving lives and yes some manufacturers maybe overselling the quality of their AFCIs and how they operate. What about surge protection or power quality not really life issues but equipment protection and efficiency issues also play a role and are starting to be important in the mind of many types of customers. Is that an industry oversell? You can make your own mind up.
@@mathman0101 I have already stated the similarities in other comments on this video. I would love to look at the numbers provided by the NFPA, etc., or studies by third parties. I cannot find them.
So for the kitchen the code is stating all receptacles must be gfci protected. Does that mean just protection or does every receptacle have to be gfci. I know for a long time you can have a gfci and then duplex receptacles placed after the gfci and the duplexes will then be considered gfci protected. Did that ever change
GFCI _protected._ One GFCI receptacle protecting 7 downstream outlets is just fine. Most every GFCI comes with two sets of terminals or wires. The LINE terminals are for incoming power and, obviously, must be used for the GFCI receptacle to be of any use. The other materials are LOAD terminals, and these are protected by the GFCI just like the plug slots are. All wiring, wiring devices, and anything plugged in to the LOAD terminals are protected.
This all seems over-the-top: let’s shroud the electrical industry with cryptic terms, expansive rules, and expensive components. Meanwhile, there are COUNTLESS homes with unsafe wiring, out of code, and prone to issues. How about we inform consumers on the safest systems, create bare-bone codes that provide the least expensive safety, and leave it up to the market to decide where they want their money to go for added security. I mean, right now, I’m sitting in a house built in the 60s and there are significant code issues in the wiring- am I going to pay for an electrician to fix this stuff? No, it’s not something I can afford… so the market is still deciding who can have the safest homes, not code.
@@jovetj Agreed - and cost-prohibitive rules make the prospect of updating these homes to ANY better standard unlikely. My point is that there should be a base-level safety, and people should be able to chose the risk that they can afford. This is ultimately what happens as they chose to not update houses that we all agree are wired unsafely --> you get 2 extremes: extremely safe, or extremely unsafe.
Back in 1980, when I was in High School, I took a class in Electronics. My shop teacher taught us about wiring, and GFCIs were just coming into use in new home bathrooms. One day, when my dad had me replacing incandescent light fixtures with round fluorescent fixtures, I tested the grounding of the 3 prong receptacle with my VOM. I ran 1 lead to the cold water pipe to the sink, and the other to the outlet plate screw to see if the water pipe was being used as the grounding rod. It showed continuity between the box and pipe. My bathroom light switch box on the adjacent wall also showed continuity to the water pipe. My shop teacher taught us the new dilemma older homes faced with grounding and plumbing repairs. PVC and PEX were coming into use for indoor plumbing repairs, breaking up grounding continuity in some cases. I'm aware on what to do one day when I repipe my home. Those who have older homes on old NEC codes and old plumbing codes must be aware on how the home is electrically grounded to the cold water pipes.
accessible or not, most folks don't know what the buttons even do, and heaven forbid you put it on a breaker in the panel, my experience most folks don't even know where their panel is, I've had to teach so many people how to reset GFCI outlets and breakers. Always happy to do it, but amazed at really how many people just don't know, or care.
win·dow noun. an opening in the wall or roof of a building or vehicle that is fitted with glass or other transparent material in a frame to admit light or air and allow people to see out.
All NFPA documents defer to the 11th edition of Merriam-Webster if not defined in the actual standard. A window DOES NOT need to contain glass or any other material.
I'm an electrical contractor in MN and received an email last fall from of my electrical inspectors with an attachment from NFPA (2023 addition) stating: Reference: 210.8(F) and Exception No. 2 (new)TIA 23-3 1. Revised paragraph 210.8(F) to read as follows: 210.8(F) Outdoor Outlets. (...I'll skip down to Exception 2. ) Exception 2. GFCI protection shall not be required for listed HVAC equipment. This exception shall expire September 1, 2026. Issue Date : August 12, 2022 Effective Date: September 1, 2022
I’m kind of surprised that you didn’t list the change to the peninsula outlet requirements. It now has to be on the horizontal surface, not the vertical.
Am I reading the 2020 wrong I am being required to gfi the finished part of a basement which when we could get duel function breaker no big deal but I think that I read only unfinished had to be gfi?
Jimmie Gill: GFCI protection is required for 125 - 250 V receptacle outlets supplied by branch circuits rated not more than 150 V TO GROUND in both unfinished AND FINISHED basements. The enforcement issue had been: • What constitutes “unfinished” versus “finished”? With modular (removable) basement finish systems, that becomes a “grayer” question. • Is there a difference in shock risk for unfinished versus finished basements? The answer was: no difference in shock risk.
read 210.8(B)(4) again. it says, ".....provisions for FOOD SERVING, beverage serving, or cooking." Yes, that was a food serving area. Doesn't state whether it's self serving or staff serving. GFCI required.
Why is, and has, the National Fire Protection Agency engaged in creating codes for the protection of human life from Electrical Shock & Electrocution? What does that have to do with "Fire Protection"?
Question for Bathrooms Outlets - If the branch circuit for an outlet is protected by a GFCI breaker then is it correct to say that GFCI outlets are not required for that area?
Well yes, the 120v service receptacle is gfi. But the condenser/compressor does not. The reference you give says less than 150 volts. It doesn't say 150 volts to ground. Most all outdoor ac units are 240 volts between the two suppl conductors conductors
To get around the aquarium issue I just use a #8 lug with a 1/4 20 bolt, lock washer, nut and #8 solid copper. The hard part is drilling the hole in the fish.
Not a contractor here - learning so i can be sure a remodel is done right... Why cant we just AFCI+GFCI the entire house... How much more could thst possibly cost...and whats the issaue with doing it that way?
@@RyanJacksonElectricalno idea how I missed this response. Good thing this popped up again in my feed...my home is not complete yet. I will be telling my contractor to do this... hopefully he doesn't scream at me or kill me with a ridiculously large CO, 😆
Doesn't Utah have an exception to most or all of the AFCI requirements? Seems a bit odd getting into the details of these when not required to follow them. I also have a problem them adding requirements based on a couple of events. They are going to require millions be spent due to a couple events? There should be more data showing a problem than that. A trend or history for years. Not putting in hypotheticals that a bunch of engineers and electrical experts dreamed up. We have an affordable housing crisis, and doubling the cost of the entire electric install isn't helping. There will always be ways to make things more safe. Is the cost justified should be major consideration.
@@jovetj I think the challenge is how you look at it. If you look at a case where there was an accident, and find that by spending 4K more on safer equipment that accident could have been prevented, saving a life or life long damages. 4K or whatever the figure is seems pretty cheap. But then if you take the occurrence rate of such an incident per capita and multiply that by the cost it comes to millions or billions spent per incident. Where do you draw the line? We do have an ever increasing cost of housing issue however, and much of that is due to creep in the regulatory requirements. How far is too far in the name of safety?
@@court2379 The line is drawn, in this case, by the people writing the Code. They're supposed to have some collective common sense, and experience. I tend to look at this from the railroad perspective. Most every death on railroad tracks is completely preventable. You can put up fences and boom gates and flashing lights and all sorts of things, and we consider them safe. But people are still going to ignore them. Electric service is safe enough when implemented safely. All the Code in the world cannot actually make someone attach a grounding conductor when it's required. The line is when it becomes an overburden (time, labor, cost, etc) to the majority to protect the few. In law they call this negligence.
The cost of so many rules is paid by all of us. The additional protection to human life is not worth the total cost to the economy. The fact that life has infinite value is not true. The real thing is the money the factories that make breakers pay to create this rules is enormus. This special breakers are so expensive that is great for those companies that you are forced to buy them. This helps to make houses so expensive that every day people find it almost imposible to buy a house
There is no requirement for GFCI protection of equipment in an attic (unless, for some strange reason, there is a sink or bathroom or something up there).
Guess what… why so complicated? How about the minimum protection requirement for all circuits in a building is GFCI + Line protection… and you‘re done… why so complicated?
In Australia our requirement now is that all final sub circuits (lights, power to socket outlets, end hard-wired devices) but not feeds to sub-boards or circuits greater than 32A. If you made it that all circuits needed GFCI protection you would have issues with discrimination on circuits with multiple downstream GFCIs and very high current devices would be hard to create the protection devices for especially at even a vaguely affordable price.
In your 210.8(B) example with the icemaker, I would argue conservatively that the stainless(conductive) sink table and the icemaker is the relevant measurement. Perhaps even the stainless(conductive) cabinet it sits on. (3 inches?) Another question: these changes seem to include EVSE equipment, which often include GFCI internally. True? Great video, thanks!
While on stainless steel or any other kitchen sink made from metal a continuing education class instructor/inspector said that all kitchen sink that have Pvc drain, PEX water supply and no garbage disposal must be have sink grounded. Been years since I saw a house without a garbage disposal but a guy that I did work for and owns over a dozen old rental houses a lastly a remove the garbage disposals because of too many problems.
How about the utility install gfi and arch fault right at the drop? No? Too expensive? I see, it ok for the homeowner to spend $80 per breaker. But not the supplier. If no one sees this as a huge scam than I got ice to sell you in Alaska. A gfi for a garage door opener is absolutely insane. And yes, I’ve been an electrician for 25 years. Im just not buying all the code changes under the guise of “safety” It’s a money scam Plain and simple
I agree. Safety is a good thing. There was pushback against GFCIs when they became mandatory. But, GFCIs are literally life-saving devices, and they can save your life each and every day. AFCI protection is different. It's that "rare event" protection. Most homes do not burn down, let alone because of electrical problems. Just like 100 years ago, it's important that wiring be done correctly. What I would like to see are the numbers. I want to see the (sharp) decline in electrical fires for the past 20 years AFCIs have been around. I cannot find this information anywhere. Is it a myth?
While in certain locations, a GFCI might be appropriate , 9 feet up on a ceiling is not one of those. Even if there is a button on the wall to activate the opener, it is low voltage, and a GFCI does nothing except add cost to the project. @@jovetj
210.8(B) 7: Could it be argued that since that sink is installed in a conductive metal counter; the edge of the sink electrically extends all the way to the edge of that counter?
210.8 open aquatic. I got to thinking this would be for like a bass pro shop where they do demonstrations on different baits, pet's smart. But then I got to thinking about dwellings " open aquatic containers" like Aquascape Aquatic Patio Pond or what about those inflatable kids swimming pools?
If freezers/,fridgerators should Have gfi protection use dedcated gfi alarms. To. My understanding EV chargers at least most have gfi built in with capabelets to reset them selfs when nusant tripping acures,and some smart electrical engineer(s ) would come with a device that would do that for circuits with federation as will.
6:33 Interesting point there. So arguably, an interior receptacle near a window on a ground floor would require GFCI - and that's probably not a bad idea. Christmas lights are a common scenario where a homeowner will run an extension cord outside thru a window.
Does anyone ever consider that adding all these 2 pole 250v GFI breakers is continually pushing the average working class family away from being able to afford a licensed electrician? Unless forced, I’ll probably not be GFI protecting any dryers or AC units
Yah, they are getting towards that way. When they run out of new regulations, they change old ones to make them stricter even though it is getting more ridicules. The electrical industry is getting richer.
While the code might not REQUIRE GFCI for a buffet area, I would argue that if it has a heating element or a refrigeration system to keep food at a given temperature, then there is a shock hazard, just as a residential range is a potential shock hazard. typically those heating elements are submerged in water and the tank is connected to a drain, so they are effectively sinks. Same with refrigerated buffet tables, they too have condensation drains. So I'd argue that they do indeed require GFCI protection.
That's a lot of metal that could become energized. If it's all grounded, great, but there are often places where it's obvious to go above and beyond the minimum requirements of Code. It's called common sense.
That is EXACTLY the way Leviton sees it. Their breakers all seem to be dual function. Maybe you brought it up in the video, I kind of jumped the gun there.
Will be interesting to see in the next few code cycles such as 2026 and 2029, if we start seeing two pole, dual function AFCI/GFCI breakers being introduced, for protecting the range, dryer, and similar 240 volt loads, and possibly extending into non living spaces currently requiring only GFCI protection such as garages and unfinished basements.
I just had a kitchen remodel and the electrician installed a GFCI on a counter that also protects the refrigerator outlet. That GFCI is now tripping for no obvious reason. Investigation finds that refrigerators sometimes trip GFCIs. Does anyone know how to deal with this? Running an extension cord into the kitchen from a non-GFCI outlet seems ridiculous!
@@jovetj ... technically they only need GFCI within 6 feet of the sink, which means the easiest way is to install several GFCI outlets along the counter, pig-tailed in the circuit, instead of the traditional line / load style wiring through the receptacle. The rest could be non-GFCI.
![GFCI Receptacle Protection, Dwelling Units [210.8(A), 2020 NEC Changes]](/img/n.gif)
Seems it would be easier just to list what doesn't need GFCI protection.
in Europe, you GFCI everything, Arc-flash protectors are becoming mandatory to wet & dwelling rooms.
E V E R Y T H I N G!!!
Just make all breakers GFCI
The NEC should just make a code change to have every outlet to be GFCI protected. This has gone beyond crazy.
And then in 2026 they’ll need to be AFCI/GFCI dual function.
Thank you Ryan for your help and support for all of us Sparkys out here in the field.
Might as well just install dual function AFCI/GFCI breakers for the whole house and just be done with it.
I'm green (trying to get to be a journeyman), but that's the way I see it. If I do that no body will be mad at me later.
At this point we should price it that way
Would simplify things a lot.
Agreed. AFCI/GFI breakers for every circuit. Future-proof.
Totally agree! The NEC 2023 is just unnecessarily complicated in that maner!
Love the channel brother. I am a safety manager in the construction industry. Just purchased the 70E book to study. Will need it as we are building a Data center near Dulles airport Va.
Looking forward to getting the book as I will be testing for JW under 2023 code. As always, love how you keep things concise and clear and use examples from the field. Mike Holt's videos are near unwatchable with all his tangents and fluff. Thanks
I’ve been waiting on these to start coming out from you. I learned so much from the last code cycle.
On the topic of GFI's for outside units, the "150 V or less to ground' might be mis-interpreted if a unit only has 240 vac feed with no neutral. It does have less than 150v to ground measured from either L1 or L2 to ground but the unit itself only runs on 240vac which is greater than 150v.
Further confusing the interpretation is "if supplied by single-phase branch circuit" may be interpreted as 120 vac only branch circuit.
I do understand the intent. After several years in my new house my 240 AC sprinkler pump died. When I went to install a new pump I discovered the ground wire was not originally connected to pump motor case. If the motor winding developed a short to case there could have been 120 vac on the case of pump to ground. Same can happen with an air conditioner metal case.
The problem with mini-splits and some variable speed compressors is their switching power supplies for three phase inverter VFD have some small EMI bypass capacitors to metal case ground, so they meet EMI (radio interference emissions) specifications. This creates a small amount of current on ground wire that creates the GFI ground fault.
Do you really think an A/C service shop replacing an old 240vac outside air conditioner compressor unit is going to get the old non-GFI equipped 240vac feed to outside unit upgraded with GFI breaker in fuse box?
Super. Back when I first started putting in GFCI outlets, three to five out of every ten I bought were bad or died within a month. Even back then I realized that it was a bad idea to have a GFCI in one bathroom protecting another bathrooms outlet, so I put a GFCI outlet wherever required. $40 each back then, but 100% customer satisfaction. They ought to just make every breaker a GFCI/AFCI mechanism, but if they do, I am going to stock up on regular breakers. 💙 T.E.N. Edit: I just removed the GFCI protection from my refrigerator, and installed separate heavy duty 120 volt 20 ampere NON GFCI/AFCI outlets, one in my garage, one in the hall, and one to the sump pump. Now I just plug the vacuum to the hall outlet, no more refrigerator dying, the sump pump will run until the power dies, and the garage one is for the tools and equipment that don't like AFCI protection, and for my RV, which trips an AFCI breaker, but not a GFCI, which was traced to an in vehicle battery charger. 💙 T.E.N.
If the refrigerator or freezer is made before the 90s code change requiring GFCIs on outlets near the sink in kitchens, that fridge or freezer might trip the GFCI. New ones are more likely to withstand tripping a GFCI. You can always use a battery backup pack to buffer the fridge and keep it running if a GFCI trips behind it. You will usually hear a backup beeping if a circuit trips.
@@maxheadroom8857 What kind of battery backup? The ones you use for computers? Those are not designed for inductive loads.
@@jovetj An electronics shop might have a backup that will power a fridge
21:53 The wording was technically correct either way. Previously, it said "indoor damp and wet locations" meaning "indoor damp locations and wet locations". Now it says "indoor damp or wet locations" meaning "indoor locations which are damp or wet".
Technically, "damp and wet locations" could be interpreted as either "(damp locations) and (wet locations)" or as "(damp and wet) locations", but as you said, it actually logically does not make sense for a location to be both damp and wet at the same time, so the phrase clearly must be intended to mean the former, not the latter. It arguably still doesn't hurt to remove the ambiguity if possible, though...
It's adding a lot of cost if you already bought the AFCI and now you have to go back and buy a dual purpose one.
this is only for new/replacements not already installed equipment.
I actually made up an SO cord with cord cap that is 6' long from cord cap face to end of cord for measuring this. I obviously did not terminate the conductors in the cord cap.
Great explanation, Ryan! FWIW, the TIA for 210.8(F) shown was for 2020 NEC®; HVAC could not meet THEIR OWN January 1, 2023, so TIAs and/or Appeals MIGHT extend this to 2025 or 2026.
Definitely interesting. I'm not an electrician but in my state the homeowner is allowed to do their own electrical. Always check your state codes. Last year when I wired a minisplit (one that won't work on GFCI) my state hadn't adopted the 2020 NEC yet (whenever I tackle a large electrical project I always check). However they did so on July 1st this year and interestingly they specifically struck out the requirements for GFCI on outlets over 125V. So someone with sway in the statehouse didn't want to get with the times yet.
In my town, about the only thing you can change without pulling a permit is a light switch trim plate. Gotta love it, tax mafia.
Appears to be conflicting GFCI rules. Great that the GFCI for garage ceiling door opener receptacles must be readily accessible why 700# vending machines must have a GFCI built into cord believe within 18" of the male plug. Problem with that when there are rows of vending machines might need a trained rat to reset cord GFCI without getting a hernia moving machine. Thanks for another great vidio. When we wired in areas with more then 3 or 4 vending machines would try to install a panel nearby with a cover that can be locked to make it easier to secure it reset a circuit breaker.
If you came expecting common sense, you'll be sorely disappointed.
whjy does the garage door opener even *NEED* to be on a GFCI though not somehting you are going to touch when went
Thanks for taking the time to make these videos for us. They’re Informative and we’ll presented.
Tip for your viewers… spa disconnects come with a 50 or 60 amp GFCI breaker at a lower cost than buying the breaker separately. I’ll use those at the HVAC equipment for GFCI protection and the breaker at the panel for overcurrent protection. Especially since 2 pole 20 or 30amp GFCI breakers are turning into unicorns.
Most likely can't use a 50 or 60 amp spa disconnect as it will exceed the Max OCPD for the condenser.
@@jeffbower5525 as long as the breaker feeding the spa panel is the right size,, it would be fine, no?
@@ChrisMeyersBigPickles222 no, the branch circuit OCPD can't exceed the MOCPD on the nameplate. If you install an OCPD after the breaker in the panel you have made that the panel breaker is not the branch circuit OCPD but rather a feeder OCPD.
I'll look at verbiage when I get home but I'm pretty sure this is how it ends up working.
No different than a 60 amp breaker feeding a sub panel with 100 amp Main
@@ChrisMeyersBigPickles222 You can't exceed the MOCPD rating (or 175% of the Motor compressor rated load current, whichever is greater) for the BRANCH CIRCUIT. If you use an OCPD at the disconnect the feeder OCPD value is irrelevant as part III of article 440 is for BRANCH CIRCUIT short circuit and ground fault protection. See 440.22(A) it specifically says branch circuit. So I am correct that you can't do this type install on the vast majority of the A/C installs.
Thanks for keeping us informed!
I replaced an old subpanel next to my main panel with a much bigger Siemens plug in neutral panel, and bought a collection of dual function breakers as well as a few GFCI and AFCI individual ones. I also moved some circuits from the main GE panel to the subpanel as the main panel was maxed out with half size breakers, all of which I removed and replaced the remaining circuits with DF breakers. What I have found is that none of my fridges or freezers (all relatively “quality” brands) like these GFCI breakers. Also my mitre saw cannot tolerate AFCI protection, but its ok with GFCI. So my question is “what, if anything, have appliance makers said or done about the compatibility of their products with these requirements?
Most all appliance techs will tell you to never install an appliance to a GFCI as explained in the installation manual….
Part of the issue with GFCIs is that unlike RCDs (name used in the reset of the world) that are rated with a type (AC, A, B, F) which determines the types of loads it is compatible with. 'AC' type are only really suitable with resistive or motor type loads (probably the type that most GFCIs are), 'A' type can operate with AC or Pulsed DC (rectified ) loads which is fine for most general electronics loads, 'F' type RCD's can work with loads with single phase frequency drives or VSDs.
It might be worthwhile doing some investigation into the type of GFCI you have and what is available to find something more appropriate.
As far as your circular saw tripping the arc fault there are probably 2 options, 1 is better quality arc fault detection the other is to check the brushes in your saw as that may be arcing more than necessary and being detected as a fault.
Hopefully the cost will go down for the breakers.
For my own home, all of my breakers are the dumb style so I was considering swapping all of them and only returning back for the branches with unacceptable nuisance trips. So to get an idea of the cost I looked up the price of breakers at my local big-box store. The price of normal breakers for my box brand were about $7USD. The AFCI for my box brand were about $70USD. That's a full magnitude of order. If (for nice round numbers) I were to replace 10 of them I'd be looking at $700 in material cost alone to replace about $70 worth of breakers as a DIY project. Probably much more to hire a professional (I'm a trained electronics tech, not an electrician).
In a new install, that's slightly mitigated by eliminating the need for GFCI receptacles.
Look up a 2 pole GFCI for a 50 amp stove circuit: You will be shocked at the cost.
@@BigGuy8059 Square D (QO) 250V 50A -AFCI- /GFCI Circuit Breaker _only_ $145 on Amazon at the time of this writing.
I wonder what the AFCI-combo version will cost; can't find one right now.
I have to laugh when any home owner laments the "expense" of upgrades that might not match their annual beer budget. Further, these are pretty fundamental upgrades, and at least would help avoid a destructive fire, which in turn might trigger an insurance investigation - and if flagrant violations or neglectful maintenance by the owner was demonstrated, your claim might be denied. Heck, a total revamping of a service panel might even get you an insurance rate reduction.
A man often credited with advancing the idea of electricity is often credited, but the expression pre-dates him: "Penny wise and pound foolish."
Ryan, I suspect a welder outlet would be a branch circuit but an RV outlet would be considered a feeder circuit.
Awesome 2023 start Ryan. Great video.
Re the fan, you always install devices per the manufacturers instructions. And assume that they will include the ETL instructions.
I guess if a window cannot be opened it is a fixed barrier?
some inspectors will cut you slack on a window that does not open. (screwed, glued, or caulked shut)
At this point, for dwelling units, it would be more straightforward to list the locations where GFCI is NOT required. I can think of a few, but they require AFCI, so at that point from a cost perspective, you might as well make all 120 and 240V circuits protected with combination AFCI / GFCI breakers.
Good stuff, great vid. I wish I got continuing education credit for this, this is better then Jade Learning!
In the process of wiring my house. Glad the Home Depot has a good return policy because as soon as my inspection is done I'll be returning all the unnecessary gfci breakers and returning $$ to my account!!!
Here is the thing and I agree with many we will end up with a panel with all dual function breakers and that is good in that longer term these will result in a safer installation. But here is the thing especially AFCIs in detecting serial and parallel arc requires both circuit design and algorithms to determine that transients and waveform signals are an arc event. Unfortunately with many non-linear loads with power factors less than one will generate transient waveforms that could trip AFCIs. The likelihood of these tripping in a panel in my view is slightly higher as a panel is a hub for multiple circuits feeding in one place and creates more opportunities for arc like noise to propagate as those circuits could feed multiple non-linear loads. I prefer where possible to fit dual AFCI/GFCI receptacles near key loads which are accessible. That way I can re-set quickly if AFCI trips. Microwaves and coffee machines are particularly good at creating arc like signal waveforms. My microwave does trip once every 3-months. Is it a nuisance?Yes it is but with such infrequent trips I can live with it if the result is a safer installation. That being said manufacturers of devices including white goods should be investing more in circuit design and more comprehensive signal and power quality testing to suppress generation of noisy transients. The AFCI devices are improving but it’s unlikely that they could ever filter out the vast number of transients generated by non-linear load devices. When I upgrade my panels in next few years it will be interesting to see how selective coordination issues with multiple dual function devices work together on a circuit. If an AFCI trips at device location would we get double trips one at source and one at the panel adding to inconvenience.? This is where selective coordination will be important. And certainly I want to be able to see trip curves for AFCI devices or at least some other current characteristic curves that allow selective coordination thereby avoiding double tripping. But this then starts to get into a different realm of electrical engineering design and which is most often done in installations where cost of interruption is very high ( ie industrial and commercial settings).
I used to have a brilliant Square D sales engineer sit at my table at IAEI classes. They used him for a guinea pig years ago. They had him install Square D AFCI breakers for every 120 volt circuit. He told me that no matter where he plugged in the vacuum cleaner it would trip the AFCI'S. Even after purchasing a new vacuum cleaner they still tripped. Excellent Square D engineers tweaked the AFCI breakers where the vacuum cleaner no longer tripped the AFCI circuit breakers. If they prevent fires & save lives we'll worth the money. Think the NEC should mandate them on flimsy office furniture built in power plug in receptacles. Some are well made and some are absolute garbage. Might want to add arc fault protection for office desks. Get scared when I look under some desk and they have a power strip feeding not only their desk but a second power strip plugged in to first strip to supply power in ajoining desk. Of course they all have computers, printers, some a fax machine and a coffee cup warmer, pencil sharpener, calculators etc.
@@JohnThomas-lq5qp I want numbers. I want to see the figures that show that AFCIs have made a substantial difference in the last 20+ years. It's the results that matter, not hopes and wishes.
At the IAEI 8 yearly classes one very intelligent well respected inspector would maybe once every few years go in a rant and say a lot of changes in the NEC are drive by lawyers.
@@jovetj take a look at the work of the NFPA, CPSC and US Fire administration on AFCIs. Many used to say the same thing about GFCIs/RCDs. Not saying there are no false trips but the idea behind it is ultimately about saving lives and yes some manufacturers maybe overselling the quality of their AFCIs and how they operate. What about surge protection or power quality not really life issues but equipment protection and efficiency issues also play a role and are starting to be important in the mind of many types of customers. Is that an industry oversell? You can make your own mind up.
@@mathman0101 I have already stated the similarities in other comments on this video. I would love to look at the numbers provided by the NFPA, etc., or studies by third parties. I cannot find them.
What if equipment changes. Who is responsible if a fatality occurs after install due to new/rearranging of equipment??
I can see some changes..that are out of control.
more money lol
So for the kitchen the code is stating all receptacles must be gfci protected. Does that mean just protection or does every receptacle have to be gfci. I know for a long time you can have a gfci and then duplex receptacles placed after the gfci and the duplexes will then be considered gfci protected. Did that ever change
GFCI _protected._ One GFCI receptacle protecting 7 downstream outlets is just fine. Most every GFCI comes with two sets of terminals or wires. The LINE terminals are for incoming power and, obviously, must be used for the GFCI receptacle to be of any use. The other materials are LOAD terminals, and these are protected by the GFCI just like the plug slots are. All wiring, wiring devices, and anything plugged in to the LOAD terminals are protected.
Great vid. When u going back on mike holt panel to be in his recordings???
This all seems over-the-top: let’s shroud the electrical industry with cryptic terms, expansive rules, and expensive components. Meanwhile, there are COUNTLESS homes with unsafe wiring, out of code, and prone to issues. How about we inform consumers on the safest systems, create bare-bone codes that provide the least expensive safety, and leave it up to the market to decide where they want their money to go for added security. I mean, right now, I’m sitting in a house built in the 60s and there are significant code issues in the wiring- am I going to pay for an electrician to fix this stuff? No, it’s not something I can afford… so the market is still deciding who can have the safest homes, not code.
Be careful on the remodeling! E L E C T R I C L E C O D E S Will Need to be updated per Permit inspection! Big Bucks!!!
Keep in mind that homes with knob and tube wiring or lack of grounds _SCREAM_ for a total rewire.
@@jovetj Agreed - and cost-prohibitive rules make the prospect of updating these homes to ANY better standard unlikely. My point is that there should be a base-level safety, and people should be able to chose the risk that they can afford. This is ultimately what happens as they chose to not update houses that we all agree are wired unsafely --> you get 2 extremes: extremely safe, or extremely unsafe.
Back in 1980, when I was in High School, I took a class in Electronics. My shop teacher taught us about wiring, and GFCIs were just coming into use in new home bathrooms. One day, when my dad had me replacing incandescent light fixtures with round fluorescent fixtures, I tested the grounding of the 3 prong receptacle with my VOM. I ran 1 lead to the cold water pipe to the sink, and the other to the outlet plate screw to see if the water pipe was being used as the grounding rod. It showed continuity between the box and pipe. My bathroom light switch box on the adjacent wall also showed continuity to the water pipe. My shop teacher taught us the new dilemma older homes faced with grounding and plumbing repairs. PVC and PEX were coming into use for indoor plumbing repairs, breaking up grounding continuity in some cases. I'm aware on what to do one day when I repipe my home. Those who have older homes on old NEC codes and old plumbing codes must be aware on how the home is electrically grounded to the cold water pipes.
Great information Sir. Sooner or later every outlet in a home will be GFCI protected. Just wait for it.
That's probably a good assumption.
I want to see data for the last 20 years of how AFCI protection has lowered the incidence of electrical house fires. I cannot find this data anywhere.
me to if theres proof they work and only kick if theres real problem id upgrade tomorrow with out it im keeping my old normal brakers
So does the 30amp 240v dryer receptacle need GFCI in residential or not?
Yes.
Why not permanent provisions for cooking preparing or Serving? Serving being the word in question
accessible or not, most folks don't know what the buttons even do, and heaven forbid you put it on a breaker in the panel, my experience most folks don't even know where their panel is, I've had to teach so many people how to reset GFCI outlets and breakers. Always happy to do it, but amazed at really how many people just don't know, or care.
win·dow
noun.
an opening in the wall or roof of a building or vehicle that is fitted with glass or other transparent material in a frame to admit light or air and allow people to see out.
All NFPA documents defer to the 11th edition of Merriam-Webster if not defined in the actual standard. A window DOES NOT need to contain glass or any other material.
Pretty soon instead of a main disco, there will be one GIANT GFCI outlet in an outdoor box. GFCI protected of course.
I haven't seen any 2pole tamper resistant plugs? That's a hell of a buzz
I'm an electrical contractor in MN and received an email last fall from of my electrical inspectors with an attachment from NFPA (2023 addition) stating:
Reference: 210.8(F) and Exception No. 2 (new)TIA 23-3
1. Revised paragraph 210.8(F) to read as follows:
210.8(F) Outdoor Outlets.
(...I'll skip down to Exception 2. )
Exception 2. GFCI protection shall not be required for listed HVAC equipment. This exception shall expire September 1, 2026.
Issue Date : August 12, 2022
Effective Date: September 1, 2022
I’m kind of surprised that you didn’t list the change to the peninsula outlet requirements. It now has to be on the horizontal surface, not the vertical.
I didn't cover it because it is a completely different topic. I have two videos covering that change. This video is strictly about 210.8.
@@RyanJacksonElectrical Ah. You had circled peninsula outlets in some of the pictures which is why I thought of it.
Am I reading the 2020 wrong I am being required to gfi the finished part of a basement which when we could get duel function breaker no big deal but I think that I read only unfinished had to be gfi?
That's correct.
Jimmie Gill: GFCI protection is required for 125 - 250 V receptacle outlets supplied by branch circuits rated not more than 150 V TO GROUND in both unfinished AND FINISHED basements. The enforcement issue had been:
• What constitutes “unfinished” versus “finished”? With modular (removable) basement finish systems, that becomes a “grayer” question.
• Is there a difference in shock risk for unfinished versus finished basements? The answer was: no difference in shock risk.
So have the building final inspection should be done before the equipment is installed
Great work. Thanks for all the help
Thank you for sharing your knowledge
read 210.8(B)(4) again. it says, ".....provisions for FOOD SERVING, beverage serving, or cooking." Yes, that was a food serving area. Doesn't state whether it's self serving or staff serving. GFCI required.
Why is, and has, the National Fire Protection Agency engaged in creating codes for the protection of human life from Electrical Shock & Electrocution?
What does that have to do with "Fire Protection"?
Question for Bathrooms Outlets - If the branch circuit for an outlet is protected by a GFCI breaker then is it correct to say that GFCI outlets are not required for that area?
@@ryanmiller1583 yes
Maybe we should start doing it like the EU where they have 30mA GFCI protection on the entire house
Very informative
I would not put a gfi outlet on a circuit with a freezer or refrigerator on it.
Well yes, the 120v service
receptacle is gfi. But the condenser/compressor does not. The reference you give says less than 150 volts. It doesn't say 150 volts to ground. Most all outdoor ac units are 240 volts between the two suppl conductors conductors
I'm wrong.
To get around the aquarium issue I just use a #8 lug with a 1/4 20 bolt, lock washer, nut and #8 solid copper. The hard part is drilling the hole in the fish.
I can only imagine, since they move around a lot and are slippery from being wet.
Skip the drill, and just use a hammer next time.
Not a contractor here - learning so i can be sure a remodel is done right...
Why cant we just AFCI+GFCI the entire house... How much more could thst possibly cost...and whats the issaue with doing it that way?
You can certainly do it. I know plenty of people that have.
@@RyanJacksonElectricalno idea how I missed this response. Good thing this popped up again in my feed...my home is not complete yet. I will be telling my contractor to do this... hopefully he doesn't scream at me or kill me with a ridiculously large CO, 😆
Doesn't Utah have an exception to most or all of the AFCI requirements? Seems a bit odd getting into the details of these when not required to follow them.
I also have a problem them adding requirements based on a couple of events. They are going to require millions be spent due to a couple events? There should be more data showing a problem than that. A trend or history for years. Not putting in hypotheticals that a bunch of engineers and electrical experts dreamed up.
We have an affordable housing crisis, and doubling the cost of the entire electric install isn't helping. There will always be ways to make things more safe. Is the cost justified should be major consideration.
I don't cover state/local amendments. Most of my clients are not based in Utah.
Exactly!!
It is NOT POSSIBLE to protect people from everything. So stop trying! Cost to Benefit common sense is becoming lost.
@@jovetj I think the challenge is how you look at it. If you look at a case where there was an accident, and find that by spending 4K more on safer equipment that accident could have been prevented, saving a life or life long damages. 4K or whatever the figure is seems pretty cheap. But then if you take the occurrence rate of such an incident per capita and multiply that by the cost it comes to millions or billions spent per incident. Where do you draw the line?
We do have an ever increasing cost of housing issue however, and much of that is due to creep in the regulatory requirements. How far is too far in the name of safety?
@@court2379 The line is drawn, in this case, by the people writing the Code. They're supposed to have some collective common sense, and experience.
I tend to look at this from the railroad perspective. Most every death on railroad tracks is completely preventable. You can put up fences and boom gates and flashing lights and all sorts of things, and we consider them safe. But people are still going to ignore them. Electric service is safe enough when implemented safely. All the Code in the world cannot actually make someone attach a grounding conductor when it's required. The line is when it becomes an overburden (time, labor, cost, etc) to the majority to protect the few. In law they call this negligence.
Are swamp coolers required to be GFCI protected?
This is going to make the price of a job go up think about now how many more of those breakers you're going to need
Love the content.. thanks
Where can i read more on these electrical related deaths that you mentioned
The cost of so many rules is paid by all of us. The additional protection to human life is not worth the total cost to the economy. The fact that life has infinite value is not true. The real thing is the money the factories that make breakers pay to create this rules is enormus. This special breakers are so expensive that is great for those companies that you are forced to buy them. This helps to make houses so expensive that every day people find it almost imposible to buy a house
Well you be publishing a comprehensive 2032 book covering the entire nec?
Yes sir!
It would be very interesting to know what the 2032 code will require, for a planning and early investment...
Can a GFCI breaker flip due to excess heat cause by our current excessive 105 outside temperatures making the breaker box hotter than usual????
Nice video... Would you do a video on tap rules..
I already did. Search "Ryan Jackson feeder taps."
So then what about indoor evaporator unit installed in an attic?
There is no requirement for GFCI protection of equipment in an attic (unless, for some strange reason, there is a sink or bathroom or something up there).
@13:10 countertop receptacle spacing is off. 2' from the sink requires a receptacle. Am I wrong? Is that a peninsula or somthing?
So will ac on commercial build that are 208v 40a now need a gfci breaker. Or do this apply to residential dwellings
Guess what… why so complicated? How about the minimum protection requirement for all circuits in a building is GFCI + Line protection… and you‘re done… why so complicated?
In Australia our requirement now is that all final sub circuits (lights, power to socket outlets, end hard-wired devices) but not feeds to sub-boards or circuits greater than 32A. If you made it that all circuits needed GFCI protection you would have issues with discrimination on circuits with multiple downstream GFCIs and very high current devices would be hard to create the protection devices for especially at even a vaguely affordable price.
there is no 2022 nec code book
In your 210.8(B) example with the icemaker, I would argue conservatively that the stainless(conductive) sink table and the icemaker is the relevant measurement. Perhaps even the stainless(conductive) cabinet it sits on. (3 inches?)
Another question: these changes seem to include EVSE equipment, which often include GFCI internally. True?
Great video, thanks!
While on stainless steel or any other kitchen sink made from metal a continuing education class instructor/inspector said that all kitchen sink that have Pvc drain, PEX water supply and no garbage disposal must be have sink grounded. Been years since I saw a house without a garbage disposal but a guy that I did work for and owns over a dozen old rental houses a lastly a remove the garbage disposals because of too many problems.
How about the utility install gfi and arch fault right at the drop?
No?
Too expensive?
I see, it ok for the homeowner to spend $80 per breaker. But not the supplier.
If no one sees this as a huge scam than I got ice to sell you in Alaska.
A gfi for a garage door opener is absolutely insane.
And yes, I’ve been an electrician for 25 years.
Im just not buying all the code changes under the guise of “safety”
It’s a money scam
Plain and simple
I agree. Safety is a good thing. There was pushback against GFCIs when they became mandatory. But, GFCIs are literally life-saving devices, and they can save your life each and every day. AFCI protection is different. It's that "rare event" protection. Most homes do not burn down, let alone because of electrical problems. Just like 100 years ago, it's important that wiring be done correctly. What I would like to see are the numbers. I want to see the (sharp) decline in electrical fires for the past 20 years AFCIs have been around. I cannot find this information anywhere. Is it a myth?
While in certain locations, a GFCI might be appropriate , 9 feet up on a ceiling is not one of those. Even if there is a button on the wall to activate the opener, it is low voltage, and a GFCI does nothing except add cost to the project. @@jovetj
Does an IP66/68/69 rated receptacle (Leviton Rhino Hide Receptacle) also meet code for an outdoor weather resistant (WR) receptacle?
Excellent video .
I cant wait to find 2P15A and 2P20A GFCI breakers for outdoor units.
Is it true that Utah has exempted itself from the NEC residential? I had an inspector tell me that 2 yrs ago. Utah inspector.
Utah uses the IRC for residential and has for about twenty years.
210.8(B) 7: Could it be argued that since that sink is installed in a conductive metal counter; the edge of the sink electrically extends all the way to the edge of that counter?
id say yes
210.8 open aquatic. I got to thinking this would be for like a bass pro shop where they do demonstrations on different baits, pet's smart. But then I got to thinking about dwellings " open aquatic containers" like Aquascape Aquatic Patio Pond or what about those inflatable kids swimming pools?
Love your books! Keep it up Ryan! Great info. What else is new?
More videos to come!
Could that GFCI or RCBO requirement apply on industry socket (Single phase-230V and 3- Phase 400V) or only on receptacle outlet
If freezers/,fridgerators should
Have gfi protection use dedcated gfi alarms. To. My understanding EV chargers at least most have gfi built in with capabelets to reset them selfs when nusant tripping acures,and some smart electrical engineer(s ) would come with a device that would do that for circuits with federation as will.
6:33 Interesting point there. So arguably, an interior receptacle near a window on a ground floor would require GFCI - and that's probably not a bad idea. Christmas lights are a common scenario where a homeowner will run an extension cord outside thru a window.
Some of us have also run cords for XMAS lights out second floor windows, though arguably there shouldn't be anybody out there to get shocked.
Does anyone ever consider that adding all these 2 pole 250v GFI breakers is continually pushing the average working class family away from being able to afford a licensed electrician?
Unless forced, I’ll probably not be GFI protecting any dryers or AC units
same if they want to lower the price fine if not im buying normal braker
I WANT CLICKABLE LINKS. I don't care if they work yet. POST THE LINKS IN THE DESCRIPTION PLEASE.
Yah, they are getting towards that way. When they run out of new regulations, they change old ones to make them stricter even though it is getting more ridicules. The electrical industry is getting richer.
Does anyone do. This for the CEC
While the code might not REQUIRE GFCI for a buffet area, I would argue that if it has a heating element or a refrigeration system to keep food at a given temperature, then there is a shock hazard, just as a residential range is a potential shock hazard. typically those heating elements are submerged in water and the tank is connected to a drain, so they are effectively sinks. Same with refrigerated buffet tables, they too have condensation drains. So I'd argue that they do indeed require GFCI protection.
That's a lot of metal that could become energized. If it's all grounded, great, but there are often places where it's obvious to go above and beyond the minimum requirements of Code. It's called common sense.
That is EXACTLY the way Leviton sees it. Their breakers all seem to be dual function. Maybe you brought it up in the video, I kind of jumped the gun there.
would 210.8 f be used for hot tubs?
Will be interesting to see in the next few code cycles such as 2026 and 2029, if we start seeing two pole, dual function AFCI/GFCI breakers being introduced, for protecting the range, dryer, and similar 240 volt loads, and possibly extending into non living spaces currently requiring only GFCI protection such as garages and unfinished basements.
I just had a kitchen remodel and the electrician installed a GFCI on a counter that also protects the refrigerator outlet. That GFCI is now tripping for no obvious reason. Investigation finds that refrigerators sometimes trip GFCIs. Does anyone know how to deal with this? Running an extension cord into the kitchen from a non-GFCI outlet seems ridiculous!
I do believe there's an exception for no GFCI on a dedicated outlet for a fridge. You'd have to hunt for the NEC #.
The receptacle could be re-wired so that the wires going to the fridge skips the GFCI.
@@jovetj ... technically they only need GFCI within 6 feet of the sink, which means the easiest way is to install several GFCI outlets along the counter, pig-tailed in the circuit, instead of the traditional line / load style wiring through the receptacle. The rest could be non-GFCI.
@@rupe53 Yes, but the OP didn't indicate there are any other protected receptacles.
remove it put reg outlet in there easy job look if you dont want to find buddy that can takes 5 mins just like 3 wires
Why don't they just say any circuits next to ......
I just dual function everything
How are the callbacks due to inconvenience tripping due to nonlinear appliance loads ,?
2029 NFPA 70: Get ready to trifunction everything!
I recently failed for NOT installing GFCI on recessed lights in basement lol.
Great video, Nils !!😉👍
Just make every outlet gfci protected and get it over with!!!!!!!
the 2023 edition removed the word "
windows "
The shock hazard is the equipment
Proper grounding.
But that is not a door at that bathroom, i see no hinged door hanging in that opening
And that is a big part of why this changed. Disagreements like this. Some view that as a door, others don't. Why leave room for the argument?
o.k. i now have a headache.
Hi Ryan, 'iwire'