5 Research Studies on Meniscus Tears: You can avoid surgery and become STRONGER
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ส.ค. 2023
- Sources ⬇️
1.) Berg, B., Roos, E. M., Kise, N. J., Engebretsen, L., Holm, I., & Risberg, M. A. (2021). Muscle strength and osteoarthritis progression after surgery or exercise for degenerative meniscal tears: Secondary analyses of a randomized trial. Arthritis Care & Research, 74(1), 70-78. doi.org/10.1002/acr.24736
2.) Lee, D.-Y., Park, Y.-J., Kim, H.-J., Nam, D.-C., Park, J.-S., Song, S.-Y., & Kang, D.-G. (2018). Arthroscopic meniscal surgery versus conservative management in patients aged 40 years and older: A meta-analysis. Archives of Orthopaedic and Trauma Surgery, 138(12), 1731-1739. doi.org/10.1007/s00402-018-29...
3.) Lee, N.-H., Seo, H.-Y., Sung, M.-J., Na, B.-R., Song, E.-K., & Seon, J.-K. (2021). Does meniscectomy have any advantage over conservative treatment in middle-aged patients with degenerative medial meniscus posterior root tear? BMC Musculoskeletal Disorders, 22(1). doi.org/10.1186/s12891-021-04...
4.) Skou, S. T., Hölmich, P., Lind, M., Jensen, H. P., Jensen, C., Garval, M., & Thorlund, J. B. (2022). Early surgery or exercise and education for meniscal tears in young adults. NEJM Evidence, 1(2). doi.org/10.1056/evidoa2100038
5.) When can exercise supplant surgery for degenerative meniscal tears?
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti....
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I had a lateral meniscus tear last ski season that was limited to the red zone - I elected to rehab it myself using ATG techniques mixed into my normal weightlifting routine and I feel 110% of the usual now.
This stuff is gold and will be my recommendation to all patients with knee pain.
Good stuff Kenny and congrats on the upcoming graduation!
Okay that’s actually wild ha ha!!! Thanks for sharing bro! We def gotta catch up some time 💪
Did you have any locking of the knee?? I can't straighten my leg at all due to extreme pain and locking. I presume this is down to the type of tear and where it is blocking the joint? What where your symptoms? Type of tear? Etc.
This was the video I’ve been looking for and it popped up for me. Thank you algo. This is awesome.
So glad to hear 💪
Absolutely sound research from you fella - Thank you for sharing
Appreciate you!!
Awesome! Thank for compiling all the studies and presenting them in succinct fashion. Nice 😺. Ben has helped so many of us. A good therapist is worth their weight in gold. Best to you in your advanced studies. You already know more than what you will learn in academics.
Appreciate the kind words!!!
Great video! Solid work!!😊
Thank you!!!
Excellent!
Thank you!!
I had a meniscus year from last 4 years. After watching your videos I will work on it
Would love to coach you thru it!!
www.atgonlinecoaching.com/?rfsn=7428969.4cee32
Use code on the link I sent you… “ATG50” for 50% off the first month. First month $24.75. If you use this link here to purchase it helps me out greatly as well 🙏
Yes sir! Preach the truth. The body will heal itself if we just put in the work and time.
100% ✅
Congratulations 🎉
Thank you!
Love this video, I had nasty ACL issue 5 years ago, and now slight MCL issue. No surgery either. Since that ACL issue, I never played football (soccer) the same, always felt unbalanced and I realised my movement was robotic, but recently I saw Ben's video, and have started to apply them. Hopefully I can get close to how I use to be before the injury.
Would love to help get you to this point!
www.atgonlinecoaching.com/?rfsn=7428969.4cee32
Use code on the link I sent you… “ATG50” for 50% off the first month. First month $24.75. If you use this link here to purchase it helps me out greatly as well 🙏
Amazing material. Do you have anything similar related to foot mobility, specifically Hallux mobility?
Love this channel.
Appreciate that! And adding to the list now 💪
Great video!
I tore my medial over 13 months ago. Surgery was the one and only rec I got after going to the doctor. So I got the partial meniscectomy done 10 months ago. Did 2 months of PT.
Started training for an Ironman 3.5 months after surgery (no running). Biking and swimming was great for recovery. started running 5.5 months after surgery with minimal inconsistent pain. I figured light jogging long distances couldn’t hurt if I monitored it well. Ran the Iron man 7 months post surgery and didn’t have any knee pain during the race. (I was very warmed up after the swim and bike).
I am now 9 months post surgery and two months post race. I have significant knee pain and cannot run. I have to sit down after walking 1-2 miles.
I am pretty down on myself for the decisions I have made. 1. Getting surgery and trying to get to heal as fast as possible. 2. Potentially forcing the completion of a full iron man because 5 of my best friends were doing it.
I am 22 yrs old and my body is older than my dad with various other issues. Where should I go from here…
There's much hope for you still -- conservative measures can accomplish MUCH -- shoot me a DM on instagram; would love to troubleshoot for you 🙏
instagram.com/atgscience/
Always fun to watch you read off the laptop while lifting 😂. ATG 💪🏼
And it definitely didn’t take more than 1 take 🥸
My grandson is having an MRI tomorrow morning to further assess an injury to his knee while playing baseball. Dr said he was concerned mainly about the amount of swelling. We did exRays today but they didn’t show enough. I found this channel and showed it to him as I have been working on the “walking/sled pulling” backwards theory with KNEES OVER TOES with great results. Praying for therapy instead of surgery.
Your content is awesome and very informative!
Appreciate you! Keep me posted how he is doing Sheila!
@@ATGScience, MRI showed a lateral tear of the meniscus. Went to Mississippi Sports Medicine Clinic to see their Sports Med Dr. He said that the tear was difficult to see in its entirety because of the angle and drained a good bit of fluid off the knee. He’s suggested the minimally invasive surgery (proper name escapes me) but did say that when he gets in there to shave off that part of the meniscus that if he sees more damage he may have to operate to repair the damage.
This Dr comes highly recommended and has treated some of our family members. Jaydens parents are athletes in their own right and his dad is a coach. However, after listening to you intently, I’m just a little skeptical. Jayden is 16 and quite the athlete. He is a 110%’er and I have no doubt that he will comply with whatever the post op therapy is. I just hate to see him go through the potential surgery and recovery time but want the best for him. Are there any other videos I can show his parents or is this one what you would suggest? Thank you so much!
Good stuff, BUT, it all depends on the type , location, and severity of the tear, and if it was Chronic or acute and the initial health of the meniscus. too many factors to just lump together. This is what the answers ON SURGERY OR NOT IS "IT DEPENDS" :)
Absolutely - it CAN be avoided, there IS hope… but always matched with “it depends” - everyone is an individual - different cases may not be as easily avoidable in relation to surgery
Bucket handle tears considered?
Do one on ankles!!
Sure thing!!!
If you ever have the ability to do a video similar to this on the shoulder labrum that would be very appreciated
I second this… ATG fixed my left shoulder but my right shoulder is still in pain. Going for an MRI soon… I feel as if there has to be a range of motion I’m not working that can help but without knowing what’s wrong I’m shooting in the dark.
I have a Joint Range progression I’ve been using that’s helped my shoulder and my fiancés shoulders greater - I’ll make a post on it ✅
@@ATGScience that would be awesome… I’ve had bad knees for 25 plus years and finally got an mri done on each one which showed meniscus tears in both.
I opted for atg which I found while researching them. 6 months in I’m far from perfect but I walked down stairs at the beach today controlling each step without holding onto the railing and all I could do was smile all the way down. First time I can remember being able to do that and not hobbling from heel to heel to get down the stairs.
I am convinced there has to be a non surgical option for my shoulder but so far it doesn’t seem like pullovers Powell raises trap 3 raises and external db rotators is it.
Hey man -- hoping to get that shoulder video soon! How are you doing ?
@@ATGScience I'll shoot you a DM, I had an MRI done.
Hey man I've probably had patella femoral syndrome for a while, did the ATG exercises, it went away and now I started to run more but it came back. I've done the ATG exercises but yes I did pay less attention to them the past few months. I've been doing them again but idk they feel less effective than when I first did them 2 years ago. Its not really pain I have its more of a irritated feeling around the kneecap. Maybe u know something specifically about this I dont think the meniscus has to do anything with it? Either way I haven't build up the ATG exercises to where I was like 8 months ago so maybe just work slowly again up. Its just the (hard) running which always sets me back.
Would love to troubleshoot ! Shoot me a dm here -
instagram.com/atgscience?igsh=amkzMzVnY2ppMWg=
Currently studying kinesiology maybe I’ll choose the same path as you
If you have any questions feel free to shoot me a dm on Instagram 💪
Hey I'm just curious. I'm currently doing ATG, and can now jump again!!! ❤🎉
But if I'm bending my kees a little, and just stay like that, pain will start to arrise around the patella. I danced some dancehall recently, and my knees were fucked for three days after...
But!!! If I take a long bath in really hot water, the pain goes away and my knees feels awesome!! (Until the body cools down; pain enters again.)
- Any guesses? I'm just curious.
Thanks for reaching out -- so I can't legally give diagnostic information on what it could be for you in particular -- but when the knee is over the toe, more loading is placed onto the patellar tendon, joint space, and ACL.... regression as necessary will be crucial to ensure the loading is progressive yet gradual -- form coaching is a great tool here!
@ATGScience Thank you for answering! Sure is, and makes total sense. ✌🏽✌🏽
So funny that this way of doing it hasn't been truly brought up before!
Hey, man.. just a quick RaNdOm question: in your experience, what seems to be the best diet structure/model in regards to performance, longevity & overall health? Just curious to get your opinion - thanks!
Edit: 2nd question - what kind of floss bands are those?
Not my lane to give a blanket statement of "do XYZ diet" for performance/longevity/health, but Fernando Lopez (@FueledbyFern) on Instagram is beginning to be one of my favorite sources -- him and @keystolongevity -- can always look into their content --
These bands I just got off of Amazon lol! Any pair would do though. I believe we just came out with our own though...
www.atgonlinecoaching.com/articles/the-athletic-truth-group-equipment-list
Can check there!
I would say if you have a flipped menisucus, meniscus "horn" or part of the meniscus is litteraly "peeled" off the bone, you need surgery otherwise you could get a loose body in the knee area, potentially infecting yourself etc. but yes, conservative treatement is the way to go overall
Appreciate you sharing ✅
Great video!! I have a bucket handle tear preventing my leg from straightening, the MRI shows a large tear and both my surgeon and my physio are saying it's an emergency op. It's been 8 weeks of doing the ATG program but I haven't seen any improvement in knee extension, but dramatic increase in flexion. Will I be able to get full extension back without surgery? Are there any examples of this? Feeling very lost with this as I am working hard to avoid surgery but it's not looking hopeful. Thank you so much!!
Hey man - shoot me a DM on Instagram - would love to help troubleshoot there 🙏
Hi I had the same injury 6 months ago. I haven't done surgery yet. Like you, I want to avoid it if possible. Right now, my knee isn't locking anymore. I have put a lot of work to rebuild muscles around the knee (including some ATG workouts). Don't know for sure if it's possible to avoid surgery. But, I have read some people's comments on TH-cam that have healed generally after one year. Hope it will be our case! Will keep you up to date. But know for sure it will take a long time to heal. If you ready to take on that journey you will have to be patient. It's quite frustrating sometimes as I want to play soccer again. But, I want to be back at 120%. Did 3 knee surgeries but didn't fix anything for me. Good luck :)
Good day. What about the soreness and slight swelling adter tge exercises. Would that be considered normal?
Shoot me a DM on Instagram! Would love to troubleshoot things for you there 🙏
instagram.com/atgscience/
When I extend my knee, there seems to be a "loose" part moving inside it. If I use a floss band to tighten the joint and then do some careful squats, I sometimes get a good crack under the patella. When squatting it's like something is catching in the joint and it annoys the knee more and more with every rep, even without added weight. (Flap tear??) The deep knee bend is particularly problematic. Is it just a question of regressing the load enough? Sometimes I feel it under the patella but mostly the pain is on the medial side of the knee.
Interesting -- I can't legally give diagnostic advice on what it could potentially be unfortunately -- but exercise wise, the go to is always regression to your pain-free limit -- and offloading as needed.
Grade 3 Complex tear in the posterior horn of medial miniscus, i tore this on 7 jan , about 1 week ago, have no pain in straightening or bending the knee just a slight discomfort, doctor suggests surgery to be done, i am just 17yrs old and don't know what to do, some say i can be healed without surgery and some advice to go through surgery, i play football (soccer) and want to continue with that at the highest level possible and yes i torn my miniscus while playing football (soccer) , and it was a non contact injury.
any suggestions or advice you'll like to give me ??
Can shoot me a dm
instagram.com/atgscience/
Did you find studies about the efficiency of meniscus suture surgery vs meniscectomy?
Nothing yet about differences between surgeries - I can check it out though - will put it on the list ✅
What are your thoughts on using PT to recover a grade 1 Longitudal meniscus tear recovery alongside a complete ACL Rupture? I believe I can recover the meniscus but the ACL will need to be reconstructed for me to recover the athletic performance.
Yeah I can't give guarantees there...
th-cam.com/video/LNoaYCgy4fc/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/tstbece2QFw/w-d-xo.html
But these were the two prior videos I posted on the ACL
I recently had my meniscus worked on because I had a bucket handle tear which caused my knee to lock up, can that overcome without surgery? Everything I read said no do to torn piece obstructing with the natural move of my knee
I can't guarantee that it can, but I also won't venture to say it can't -- from a conservative point of view, a general consensus is giving 12 weeks of physical therapy to see if it can't be functionally improved without surgery -- I can't say what you should do in your scenario, but if you're looking for troubleshooting in the exercises or have any other questions, feel free to shoot me a DM on IG; link is in description ✅ 🙏
What about bucket handle tear, this tear can make the meniscus to fold and tangle between the bones and lock your knee, do you think long term atg training can solve this problem?
I didn’t look into specifics between different tears - let me see if the studies I posted looked into that - usually they give specifics on tear types. If I don’t respond in a few days comment again so I don’t forget LOL!
I’m biased and definitely think ATG can solve much of many problems hahaha - but it’s always nice to see the clues of the literature to back that up.
There’s just been so many insane wins from a varieties of injuries that I’m so much more optimistic about natural recovery than I was perhaps 5 years ago ✅
I had total menisectomy of lateral meniscus and i am only 26
I am so much worried about my future
Would i be able to play and run again
Or remain active till my old age.
Please help me buddy
Lateral Menisectomy - Success Story: th-cam.com/video/_djw0M99wb4/w-d-xo.html
We've seen many similar scenarios have great success with ATG -- can't give guarantees but there's much more to knee longevity than the meniscus --- you CAN thrive in spite of not having one ✅
Can shoot me a DM on IG if you need help troubleshooting exercises 💯 🙏
I have a question that i have been looking to get an answer for from the ATG perspective. I have had a complete medial menisectomy and have completed my rehab but my surgery leg didn't feel quite right no matter what I did. After incorporating the ATG drills I started to see improvements, however, one exercise im afraid of doing is the ATG split squat. The few times ive done it i felt pain im tge medial part of my surgery knee and sometimes had some inflammation right after. My logic is that the extreme angle of knee flexion under load in the ATG split squat is going to be bad for the cartilage on the bones where the tibia and femur meet since that where the friction occurs (bone on bone, complete menisectomy as i mentioned). Is this factually true or am I just imagining? I asked around a lot and searched but cannot find a definitive answer. Any help is appreciated in this matter. 7:32
Great question -- and you're correct in terms of the loading effects -- the most loading that will occur in the knee joint will be in that knee flexion -- the amount for you to perform is going to be dictated by your pain levels -- if you are getting pain, regression is surely key -- you can shoot me a DM on IG if you need some help troubleshooting 🙏
I had a partial medial meniscectomy three months ago and I am also a bit intimidated by that movement. I have read in reddit some testimonials of people making things worse for their meniscus or even tearing them. Would be appreciated if Kenny speaks his opinion on this
Yup -- without form coach supervision, any movement could be potentially damaging -- these movements *DO* put the most pressure on those structures -- but without that pressure, it also won't adapt and heal -- the key is finding the amount of regression you need to not cause it to aggravate -- hence staying at a range of pain free ability...
But the program has much evidence at helping these conditions when following this frame of thought...
Lateral Menisectomy - Success Story: th-cam.com/video/_djw0M99wb4/w-d-xo.html
Hope that helps!
@@ATGScience Hi Kenny.
I think what you say is logical given the fact Glicoaminoglicans have adaptative reactions to progressive compressive forces in the knee joint. I have seen several cases of people who had ressections (Nsima Inyang, Musclenmotiv8 and other people I chatted with) and have strong knees. Even the case you have sent me :)
What do you think of your knee? You think your meniscus healed or that it became asymptomatic through all this ATG training?
@@rubenperezgarcia8137 great question. I think it’s hard to say conclusively because I never got Re-MRI’d to se - but - id say initially it’s probably more’so the asymptomatic side of things - getting on the route to pain free knee ability itself will help alleviate latent inflammation in the joint that resulted from the injury. I think long term, perhaps months and years of consistency, are where the actual structural changes become more prevalent. Just my two cents!
Hello, how can I get in touch with you?
I subscribed to the ATG program but would love to have you as my coach. Since I have similar injuries that you had.
Shoot me a DM on instagram!
instagram.com/atgscience/
If you're on the app already, you can request "Coach Ken" on the message section on the bottom of the app ✅
Guys im dealing with a grade 3 lateral meniscus tear there is no inflammation or hindrance in mobility i have rested up for a good 4 months but have weakness and muscle loss in the injured leg what can i do
Shoot me a DM !
instagram.com/atgscience/
Done
YOU SHOULD MAYBE SPECIFY THE TYPE OF OF MENISCUS TEAR HERE.NOT ALL MENISCUS TEARS CAN'T BE FIXED WITHOUT SURGERY...EXAMPLE ..THE BUCKET HANDLE TEAR MENISCUS TEAR WHERE THE LEG IS LOCKED AND CAN'T STRAIGHTINING IT OR WALK WITHOUT LIMPING..LET ALONE DO THESE WORKOUTS
Yup - not always possible - the goal is to emphasize that they *can*; oftentimes people think it’s a lost cause. Conservative treatment, I think, needs to have a higher utilization before going under the knife. Appreciate the input though; there’s always a “it depends” to all of this.
I just had to comment for the 300% png
But also wanted to get your thoughts on this:
I’ve been doing my own research and reading on meniscus studies for my workshop, and I come across studies that find no significant difference in meniscus thickness between weightlifters and sedentary populations, or studies that claim greater degradation of the meniscus in high training load vs low training load groups. It’s such an insane idea to claim “weight training does not affect meniscus thickness” or “high load is bad for the meniscus”.
Have you come across these studies? One was funded by an osteoarthritis association, while the other had no conflict of interests. I’m not sure what’s going on there.
I haven’t come across if personally! Logistically, I thought the meniscus would hypertrophy in response to loading, but I haven’t come across anything that suggests that - but I made a prior meniscus video that speaks on how it’s environment *DOES* adapt to protect the meniscus with loading.
If I find something with hypertrophy of the meniscus, I’ll definitely post about it.
As far as high load being bad for the meniscus, that’s just going to be in terms of progressions - ANYTHING can be bad depending on the dose.
I like cookie dough. A lot. It’s not going to be bad for me unless I eat a tub of it in a day.
Likewise if someone decides to max out 5 days a week with heavy squats, without giving ample rest, or building up weak links… then yeah perhaps it could lead to issues.
Also I’m hungry hence the cookie dough comparison.
For you and anyone else, I’ll gladly read any research you send me and give my thoughts on it 💪
@@ATGScience appreciate it man! here're some of the dois:
10.1186/s13075-023-03000-2
"Cartilage tissue turnover and cartilage degradation appear to increase in response to a 3-month exercise-related joint loading training program"
> I'm wondering if these results were because patients were already diagnosed with symptomatic OA and were put on high intensity, which means they were training through pain and using loads they weren't ready for
10.1177/0363546507299746
"They showed significantly greater patellar cartilage thickness than nonathletic volunteers but no significant differences in the cartilage thickness of the other knee joint cartilage plates or joint surface areas."
> Wondering why it's just the patellar cartilage that showed significant difference and not elsewhere. Paper later claims "these findings suggest that cartilage thickness has much less ability, if any, to adapt to mechanical loading than muscle". Pretty wild.
Interesting -- I'll have to give this a read -- a lot of that has to be taken with a grain of salt because of the broad array of training modalities studies use -- if it's high intensity exercise, and it's NOT with scalable motions, then the weakest link is going to take the full brunt of it -- think of doing heavy 1RM squats to 90 degrees -- compared to a full range squat -- with intense heavy partial squats, the thing mostly being trained is central nervous system output -- but with full squats, the thing mostly being trained is structure -- now BOTH are being trained -- structure and output -- with BOTH partials and full range -- but the TREND goes more towards structure in full range --
So, one might more easily reach strength levels that their structure isn't ready for with partials -- but when using exercises with strict and measurable form, the FORM itself will place a cap on the strength getting jacked up higher than the structure can handle...
Does that make sense?
....the second one's claim is pretty wild -- I'll have to look into that LOL - wild indeed.
@@ATGScience absolutely! Appreciate your time with all this!
3:24 VAS is too outdated and too subjective, the other measures are better
🙏 🙏