Conversely, when the harp glissandi part in anything other than C major is doubled onto the piano part just in case there isn't a harp available. Ouch my fingers.
I used to have a piano teacher who also played the harp. I think it was at my 1st lesson with her that I told her what you said about the harp a few years ago: "A harp is not a piano!" She replied: "If everyone understood that, my life would be so much easier!" and went on to tell me that once a soprano had asked her to accompany her, and given her the original piano score of the song she wanted to sing. The result: 42 pedal changes and a very awkward piece to perform. Let this be a lesson to composers and arrangers around the world...
I hired a harpist for a gig and wound up writing her a handful of arrangements as part of the process. I know full well that a harp cannot play piano scores verbatim, so I tried to be very aware and sensitive about not writing anything impossible or too crazy. When I handed her the scores, I immediately apologized for anything non-idiomatic and welcomed her critiques. She reworked a few of the passages and sat down with me after the gig to show me what she changed. This was so helpful! I highly recommend that non-harpists try to find a good player to help them with their orchestration. So few of us truly know the instrument well enough to write well for it, and having a real harpist review our scores is invaluable.
Already have watched this video third time, for the ease of future reviewing: 1:33 1. timid dynamics 3:11 2. staccato on pizzicato 4:21 3. long durations ties and slurs on pizzicato 6:22 4. Long durations on triple or quadruple-stops 7:35 5. Not splitting the middle between rhythm groups 9:26 6. Failure to clearly mark entrances 11:25 7. Transcribing piano-style phrasing directly onto strings, winds, and brass 12:54 8. Slurring across a pickup 14:05 9. Dumping the piano score onto the harp part 16:30 10. Unbalanced use of wind & brass registers 18:37 11. Sticking to the exact pitches and registers of a source score no matter what 20:55 12. Not conveying the spirit of the original music as performed You’re welcome
Yeah, I guess if you're orchestrating for wind band/concert band/wind ensemble, it's acceptable, as Thomas said in the video! Ticheli, Markowski, and many others have used these directions in their band scores (sometimes with just div. I think, since the unison is usually implied whenever it appears). I guess that I never catched that it doesn't appear in orchestral scores.
Basically, unison/divisi are only for tutti parts written for more than one player to play (as orchestral string parts are, and concert band parts often are). All orchestral wind/brass parts (with rare exception) are written to be played one on a part, so even though scores usually put e.g. both flute parts on a staff, they're still different parts.
Here's one to add. If you're only providing dynamic markings on organ scores with no registration suggestions, you leave the organist guessing what you want. In general, dynamic markings on organ scores only apply to the expression boxes (so that the softest stop with the box open is ff while the loudest stop with the box closed is pp even though it may still be quite loud).
I watched this with interest. I have a 1991 degree in composition, but switched to computer programming for a career. I learned to read scores at 13, and that along with listening has been my education since. Much off the video was confusing for me. Most mistakes you discussed would have not occurred to me. For example, harp is not something that I would use. I appreciate this video. It opens my eyes to ways to go wrong.
Great to hear, Brian! I'd say - build on the new knowledge with more score-reading, noticing where the reverse of certain errors (i.e. the right way of doing things you hadn't thought of before) represents solid approaches in the scoring of great composers. And even where they bend the rules in powerful ways, like the Mahler excerpt.
A good example of the frailty of flutes is the last movement of Mendelssohn's Italian Symphony which features a flute trio. Note the very light scoring of it against the three flutes. This is what makes it a great piece - the orchestration, timbre and musical ideas.
I'm so glad I spent 9 years playing violin before majoring in piano in college . It makes orchestration 1/3rd easier . Winds not so difficult but brass took some real study . Fr.Horns add support even when you don't hear them . Percussion takes real imagination even after you've learned all their various techniques . Learned a lot about harp music here ! No. unisoni and divisi in brass and winds didn't know that !
Thanks so much! They were really fun to adapt, especially finding many different styles. I ended up not having time to write a tango variation, but maybe if I make another list I'll return to the idea.
Man, when I clicked on the video I thought this was gonna be interesting. When I saw the first seconds, I repented for a bit because I Thought it'd be a bit boring and the video was 24min long. But in the end, I enjoyed it more than I expected! You've gained a new subscriber :)
There's a sign at my job which, coincidentally, happens to be a useful piece of advice for orchestration as well: "A place for everything... everything in its place!"
I love what you did at the end with the pizz chord and the half note in the woodwinds; it almost sounded like a piano with a soft-sustain. Thanks for sharing this!
*Scores everything at just plain "mezzo" and laughs and laughs and laughs.* 🤫 P.S. Slurred pizzicato = Slizzicato. Abbreviated "slizz." I'll be here all week.
Evil! Eeeeeevil! 😃 You have no idea how many times I practiced saying staccato and pizzicato in the same sentence so I didn't end up saying "pitstaccato"
@@OrchestrationOnline You clearly have a sweet tooth, given the examples you give... dessert... sorbetto.... we're gonna SLURP rather than 'slur' hehehe. Great tips by the way. Thanks a lot for your work and a lovely weekend!
I totally agree with the first rule of avoiding mezzo piano and mezzo forte. Study the scores of Mahler, etc. and try to find an mp or an mf. There may be one or two but very few. Tepid, lukewarm dynamic markings give a tepid, lukewarm score.
Wow. I just found this channel today and I'm thrilled. I've been writing and orchestrating for nearly 50 years and all these tips were learned via the old school of hard knocks. I would have loved this kind of presentation years ago. Anyway, I'm subscribed and looking forward to getting into the website. I hope the challenge is still ongoing. Thanks so much for taking the time to do this.
Hi Charles! The 2021 Orchestration Challenge mentioned in the video is over and done - but the 2022 Challenge will start in a few months. It would be great to get an entry from you. 🙂 Thanks so much for your kind words about the channel. I'm so glad that it resonates with you.
Thank you SO much for including the bit about showing the middle of the bar. It drives me BANANAS when people don't do this. Or worse, argue against this.
Very good video. Teaching scoring from the viewpoint of what not to do instead of what to do is a really good way of teaching. Since every score is different.
@@OrchestrationOnline Will you make a second channel so I can hear the complete version of your Fumblerule Variations on Chopin’s Prelude Op. 28, No. 7?
This is brilliant, opens up a whole new world. I have understood that the answer is to learn to play, at least a little, ALL of those instruments, so as to learn their practical difficulties, strengths and weaknesses, according to the tessitura. Many thanks.
Thank you so much for your comment, Ricardo! That is the best compliment of all - that my points are accessible and useful at many different levels and perspectives. I appreciate you letting me know.
This was a very useful video. As someone who mostly arranges music for small ensembles, I find it hard to expand a piano part as described at 18:35 because I still have a similar natural limit to the number of voices/amount of sound the musicians can produce.
I'm in the process of arranging (expanding, somehow technically) the St. Anne Prelude and Fugue BWV 552 from the Busoni piano arrangement into a string nontet (4 vln, 2 vla, 2 vcl, and electric 5-string bass). I found these tips quite useful, and I'm so glad I've already taken the last 2 tips to heart. Hopefully I finish it in time to submit to you!
As a cellist, I have a lot of feelings about pizzicato with/without staccato. There is absolutely a distinction between long and short pizz on cello and bass, particularly on the low notes. On viola and violin, the player can sometimes appreciate a tiny difference in some cases but it's more in the intention... I'll admit it's pretty much inaudible. Anyway, classical cellists and bassists are often adjusting the length of their pizzicato contextually without it being specified. A related issue is that I sometimes write a long note for pizz bass, because I really want them to let it ring, but as string players we sometimes think we see an "arco" just because there's a half note written.
Bravo Thomas, this is such a fine video! So far as the Harp, I am no expert at scoring for the Harp, though I have used it in many of my works. What many composers do not know, is that (unlike the piano) the Harpist only plays with 4 fingers on each hand. Although you can use more than 8 notes in a 'roll," the Harpist can not play more than 8 notes at a time, as you can while playing piano. In my last 2 orchestral works that included Harp ("Autumn Poem" and "Ballad of Wounded Knee") I discussed the Harp parts with each Conductor before the rehearsals. The Harp parts in each piece were for "musical color" and "tone color," though I wanted the Harp just a bit more present in the "Ballad of Wounded Knee" than in the "Autumn Poem." Sometimes, just dynamic markings are not enough, and actual conversation is needed with the Conductor and/or musicians, to let them know the Composers "personal" wishes and/or intentions for particular instruments or parts beyond the written score.....Peace!
Another piece of advice, unless you have a harpist physically there, writing the part with you, Do Not Write The Pedal Changes. Harpists all have different styles with pedal movements, and will probably write their own pedal markings anyway. Pedal charts however are really helpful.
I already knew of all of this, but I gladly liked and subscribed to your channel purely because of how well you explain, being down to earth with your explanations. Great job!
It would be great to get an entry from you, Chuck - and to soothe your wounds over my Mahliciousness, click through the link to my Mahler orchestration lessons on the Adagietto for some real love and learning about the piece.
6:21 As a rookie, I usually do this, using forte, 'cause I think it makes clear the bow stroke must be as forte as every string (specially the lowest one) must be played and keep sounding as long as possible 😅 But, obviously, I never use this on piano (p) dynamics.
@@ericbingham-kumpfcomposer5293 I bet! Lol mozart harp and flute concerto is a prime example. The harp part is very hard because its written like a piano.
@@Rik77 dont' say such things! I played it I was 14. It's not really difficult! Harpists don't hate this concerto! Harpists are just bored only to play this and Boieldieu that's all! But wait a few moment and you'll see that new concertos are coming 😉
This video is phenomenal! However it should be noted that this is directed toward a more classically trained orchestra The same doesn't necessarily apply to other genres, like jazz for instance With that said, when working orchestras into jazz, this is a really useful way to accomodate to the classically trained orchestra players!
I just discovered your channel and I love how straightforward and particular your advice is! If you (or anyone familiar with your channel) see(s) this, would you be able to point me in the direction of some good information specifically for wind/concert band? Thank you!
Great tips! As a violinist, though, I respectfully disagree with the triple/quadruple stop comment. I find it much easier to read triple/quadruple stops just written as block chords of arbitrary duration than seeing all those grace notes, which I would not play exactly the same way (the grace notes would audibly come before the beat; for a block chord, there's a negotiation so that the lower notes can arrive as close to the beat as possible without flagrantly delaying the upper notes). Bach's g minor violin sonata first movement ends on a g minor quadruple stop whole note - no violinist is going to attempt to play all 4 notes simultaneously. In orchestral music, it suffices to mark divisi to get all four notes to sustain, and to omit this to get the typical 2+2 rolling pattern for triple/quadruple stops.
Another hot tip. Low brass breathes every few notes in a fortissimo passage and still every other bar or so in any well-sustained mezzo. Watch the Fountains of Rome excerpt played live by any tuba/bone quartet and you'll see what I mean. Sincerely, your tubist.
You also have to keep in mind what the software allows. For example in musescore you have to mark the score ib terms of explicit literals for the correct effect as opposed to using more vauge terms for which the software has no rules and must ignore.
~ 11:45 I've always made a distinction between phrase markings and slurs that this channel seems to blur. Granted there can occasionally be ambiguity e.g. when slurs include a lengthy string of notes but the distinction is usually obvious.
Not at all, Richard. I feel I'm being perfectly clear here. Piano-style phrasing is the use of the slur to denote a kind of phrased playing. But the slur marking means something different when applied to winds, brass and strings - the continuation of a single breath or bowstroke. Applying the former to the latter is an error. I'm making the distinction clear for piano-based composers.
@@OrchestrationOnline I'll take your viewpoint on board but generally I apply a rule of thumb, slurs are written between note heads (as are ties), phrase markings above note groups included. I would never describe the given example of Liszt's as employing a slur marking.
@@rjlchristie I think you're misunderstanding me here. A very long curved line over a phrase on a piano cannot usually be dropped onto a wind, brass, or string part because of the needs of those players to breathe, bow, and/or articulate. That is the entire point in the video. The word "slur" is used to describe the marking, not the function. If you look up the definition of the word "slur" on Wikipedia and in music theory dictionaries, you will see that the term is used to describe the marking of the curved line whether it is used to group short notes in a connected way, or longer passages of notes as a phrase.
Thank you very much for creating this video and sharing orchestration tips! They are very helpful. I'm so grateful I found your video. So inspiring! Thanks very much.
One of my most embarrassing moments in music school was in composition class involving transposing errors. I was conducting a chamber group playing a short, (thankfully) piece of mine.
I really loved the string chords you put underneath the flute part at 16:20 (even if the dynamics were unbalanced). Definitely worth repeating at the end!
18:50 Alkan seems to be very good at filling stuff in despite this. Sometimes it genuinely feels like there's more stuff there than there actually is. EDIT: It's worth mentioning Alkan's Concerto and Symphony for Solo Piano.
Great video, thanks! 👍🙏 It would be great to have more audio examples here and there domonstrating what you explain (slurred pizz. etc.)..but that would be a great amount of additional work guess..
I know the video is more about instrumental orchestration, and perhaps this topic was covered in a different video, but I was thinking of another exception to "splitting the middle", particularly when it comes to vocal music. To my understanding, and especially within scores of older composeres, a lot of barred notes (8ths, 16ths, etc.) tend to irregularly extend or split the note bars (or dots) based on the syllable that's being sung. For example, if you have a single syllable on one 8th or 16th note, and the next 8th/16th note is a different syllable, the notes will not be connected by a bar, but the lone syllable will appear under an unbarred note (with it's standard curved "flag").
im sharing your channel with everyone. The explanations and the examples are absolutely gold. From a student of musical composition who is learning the beautiful world of orchestration: Thank you so much, you are awesome!
Funny, at 17:05 I was thinking that, except for a few of the lowest notes in that passage, I would have thought the flute SHOULD be able to cut through the strings IF the strings played softly enough- like if the strings were at pp or ppp and the flute were at mp or something. So I appreciated your little "post-it note" in the score! :-) (Of course, if that passage were a dynamics "who can play loudest" contest, or in many similar cases, the strings would totally wipe out the sound of the flute in that low register, as you point out.)
Good question. When scoring for strings, since the instruments have multiple strings, the bow can play two strings at the same time, creating a harmonic interval or two independent voices. This is called a "double stop." Three or four strings can be played nearly simultaneously with a fast stroke, or slower and intentionally rolled or broken. This is called a "triple-stop" or a "quadruple stop." When you want each player to play all the pitches in this way, it's called "non divisi" - meaning "undivided." But sometimes playing both notes on the same instrument isn't very workable. In this case, you tell the string players "divisi", letting them know that they can divide the pitches between two or more players. When this is finished and you intend them all to play together, then you tell them "unison" - meaning all players come back together to play single notes together. So here's the thing. Brass and winds cannot play more than one pitch at a time (except for multiphonics, which is as special technique). So there is no need to tell them "divisi" and "unison" - those terms do not apply to them, except as I mentioned in band scoring where you might have a large section of clarinets or some other instrument, and you need to tell them to divide two pitches between all the players instead of just the amount of players per pitch. But that is not a thing in concert orchestration.
Here some tips specific to strings: i don't know who needs to hear this, but dont make string players play left hand pizzicato, it has pretty much the same effect as pizzicato, but is just overly hard. This is probably already said somewhere, but don't make string players switch from arco to pizzicato too quickly, especially double bassists struggle with changing their grip on such a large bow in a fast manner. Try avoid string crossings that move over two strings repeatedly at quick tempos . Either make two players play at different registers, slow it down or change it completely. Try to avoid double stops when writing for the double bass section. This often creates a muddy an unclear texture, and unless you're going for it, try to avoid doing that. These final tips are pet peeves of mine, but shouldn't necessarily be avoided. Excessive use of trills or fast pizzicato is tiring and often annoying to play, and I myself don't like playing it, but if it benefits your piece, go ahead. Also WRITE MORE DOUBLE BASS CONCERTOS!! The bass is a very under-utilized instrument, but composers like bottesini, frank proto. Andres Martin and vanhal have written wonderful concertos for the instrument. Hopefully composers will be inspired by them.
At 8:12, can you/should you break the beaming of the quarter notes to help emphasize the phrasing, especially in the left side example in 4/4? Shortly after you demonstrate how and why Mahler does it, but in the alternate version at 8:12 is specifically what I'm wondering about.
A flag on the 2nd 8th note of beat 3 is a standard engraving approach designed to help clarify the rhythm, but it's not always observed by engravers (or composers!).
I think it would be extremely helpful if you posted a video explaining your knowledge on the differences between the overtones of instruments in different families as well as the differences within the families (Example: Violin vs Viola) . Additionally I can not find any information on the wave-forms of the different families/instruments but you seem to have knowledge on that. If you even pointed me in a direction to find more information on that it would be very helpful.
Great idea for an orchestration tip, actually - comparing the overtones of violin, viola, and cello on the same tone; but going even a bit further to examine how that affects voice-crossings (like viola playing bass during a cello solo, or cellos above violas and/or violins). Thanks! I'll put it in the next book.
For now, though, I direct your attention to the diagrams in my second book, 100 MORE Orchestration Tips. I use spectrum charts to show the differences in tone between muted and unmuted heavy brass and strings, stopped and open horns, etc. That might be helpful.
@@OrchestrationOnline Wow, that is wonderful. I'll be looking forward to reading about that when your next book comes out! That would be very interesting to take it further like you mentioned. Luckily I already have 100 Orchestration Tips and 100 MORE Orchestration Tips! I will check out those spectrum charts. Thanks for everything you do.
A great excerpt to offer your viewers to score is the 8 bar into to Chopin's first Ballade. It would be a great lesson when to fill in supporting notes or not to with an octave line inn different ranges. Maybe as a warm-up exercise.
Like the reminder of the difference between marking sol, unison and alternation of players with woodwinds/brass and strings. Also writing for harp successfully is very difficult - aside from throwing piano parts into the harp.
I'm definitely guilty of adding slurs to upbeats! So thank you very much for making me aware of that! On the very long phrasing slurs in Liszt: Wagner and Strauss did this a lot too. Strauss as a conductor handled these moments (the Stokowski-way 😂) by allowing the players of the section to decide individually for themselves how many notes they can play within one bow stroke. In a section the individual bow charges won't be noticed so the end result will be one long legato line.
Hi Charlie! Gotta watch the credits, I always list the music. The entire soundtrack to this video is my "Fumblerule Variations" on the Chopin Prelude in A Major. Not trying to impress anyone with it, just using various twists on a familiar piece to illustrate errors and potential pitfalls.
A fine example of following the rules so as not to commit error number 11 is Pictures At An Exhibition as is was written for piano v how the orchestral version was done.
Or Une Barque sur l’océan, which Orchestration Online has an entire series on! The arpeggios are often too impractical for transcription from piano to instrument parts, so Ravel completely reworked them and made them more textural
Lots of useful things here. Regarding 4. Its quite common in classical music to just write the chord, knowing that it won't be played that way. The convention is understood by string players. A quadruple stop chord, is never expected to be played as a simultsneous 4 note chord. So I don't really see a problem writing that, as long as the composer knows how it will be executed. Context is important of course.
The problem is that the stops are scored in such a way that illustrates the composer indeed does NOT know how it will be executed - as in tying a quadruple stop across a barline (or many barlines), or scoring a long duration that doesn't work against the rest of the music unless all four strings are being played. Or the scoring will not take into account the need to arpeggiate or break the chord; nor the further effect of an articulation mark in dragging out or biting down on the lower strings. It is an error when it's scored in such a way that it's obvious the orchestrator took none of this into account, and I'm seeing scores in which that happens frequently.
Most drumming notation software would put the snare on the "C" place, but the actual place of the snare is in the "A". You now see snare on the C because how common this error went, but before scoring softwares, you saw the snare on the A more frequently.
As much as I agree with what you say, even more important is a basic lack of musical training in harmony, counterpoint, and development of material by new orchestrators who are arranging and composing. Decent orchestration EMERGES from a sound musical training and awareness of basic harmony, voicings, etc. I know it's old fashioned nowadays, but orchestration is a very complicated business, and if you cannot write a simple three-part piece without glaring mistakes, writing for a whole orchestra is going to be impossible. The vast majority of wannabe orchestraters have a basic lack of musical knowledge. They should start with very simple pieces before attempting vast orchestrations.
True that, if you're noob you gotta be humble and start small, I often start with piano and flute and go on for that, usually works, if I try orchestra I end up not doing anything 😅
So many of theses are known especially if you have played in an orchestra! I learned about the timid dynamics when recording my string quartet! Also, its fun to guess the mistake before you say it. Thanks for the great content! edit. 18:00 ha! Composers have never cared for players feelings lol, jk, jk, *they didn't seem to!
In some intriguing way it would be very interesting to compose a piece which in purpose tries to include as much cliche errors as possible and hateful moments for every instrument player equally. Only to spare that romantic climax for a flute for a recorder instead. :D
i really agree with this "timid dynamics" thing, but would like more explanations on this. Sometimes mf really needs a whole section. I guess the confusion starts with mf>mp mp>mf everywhere, then it becomes just another way of saying F and p, but then you loose the meaning of p and F
Thomas thanks for the video as usual very beautiful teaching and lesson. I can't wait for your more videos at 15:00 its looks crazy man and full of notes
Yeah haha that's me being excessively Lisztian for fun, just to make the poor imaginary harpist's life hell. 😃 Thank you for your very kind words, that makes me want to do more videos like this.
Because, as I say in the video, the orchestration at 21:52 is "using the orchestra of the day." Notice that all the pitches are negotiable on the natural horns as open tones, except for the stopped F4 and the 1/2-stopped A4 (which would be common to score in the 1830's, as we see in Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique and other scores of the period). Horn in E is chosen because the range of open pitches is ideal. Horns were often scored in the dominant of the given key, for their ability to facilitate a modulation to the V in a sonata allegro.
As a professional harpist, I clicked on this video in the sole hope for #9. :-)
Conversely, when the harp glissandi part in anything other than C major is doubled onto the piano part just in case there isn't a harp available. Ouch my fingers.
@@markphillips4265 This is not really a problem for me
As a semi-professional Harpist, my sister would second you.
all those cupcakes in a row made me chuckle
@@ValkyRiver But it is for me
I used to have a piano teacher who also played the harp. I think it was at my 1st lesson with her that I told her what you said about the harp a few years ago: "A harp is not a piano!" She replied: "If everyone understood that, my life would be so much easier!" and went on to tell me that once a soprano had asked her to accompany her, and given her the original piano score of the song she wanted to sing. The result: 42 pedal changes and a very awkward piece to perform. Let this be a lesson to composers and arrangers around the world...
There's some of that with simple lead sheets for guitar to piano as I hear it.
I hired a harpist for a gig and wound up writing her a handful of arrangements as part of the process. I know full well that a harp cannot play piano scores verbatim, so I tried to be very aware and sensitive about not writing anything impossible or too crazy. When I handed her the scores, I immediately apologized for anything non-idiomatic and welcomed her critiques. She reworked a few of the passages and sat down with me after the gig to show me what she changed. This was so helpful! I highly recommend that non-harpists try to find a good player to help them with their orchestration. So few of us truly know the instrument well enough to write well for it, and having a real harpist review our scores is invaluable.
What about a set of timpani is not a piano? 🤭
True and also not an organ!
Honestly, why would anyone thumbs down this? This is excellent free content!
Hurt feelings maybe? Striking too close to home perhaps.
Thanks so much for your kind words.
They were obviously violists
Some people just want to watch the world burn
Already have watched this video third time, for the ease of future reviewing:
1:33 1. timid dynamics
3:11 2. staccato on pizzicato
4:21 3. long durations ties and slurs on pizzicato
6:22 4. Long durations on triple or quadruple-stops
7:35 5. Not splitting the middle between rhythm groups
9:26 6. Failure to clearly mark entrances
11:25 7. Transcribing piano-style phrasing directly onto strings, winds, and brass
12:54 8. Slurring across a pickup
14:05 9. Dumping the piano score onto the harp part
16:30 10. Unbalanced use of wind & brass registers
18:37 11. Sticking to the exact pitches and registers of a source score no matter what
20:55 12. Not conveying the spirit of the original music as performed
You’re welcome
“Never use unison or divisi for winds” is something I genuinely didn’t know! I mostly have played in concert bands, that may explain it though.
Yeah, I guess if you're orchestrating for wind band/concert band/wind ensemble, it's acceptable, as Thomas said in the video! Ticheli, Markowski, and many others have used these directions in their band scores (sometimes with just div. I think, since the unison is usually implied whenever it appears). I guess that I never catched that it doesn't appear in orchestral scores.
Basically, unison/divisi are only for tutti parts written for more than one player to play (as orchestral string parts are, and concert band parts often are). All orchestral wind/brass parts (with rare exception) are written to be played one on a part, so even though scores usually put e.g. both flute parts on a staff, they're still different parts.
I never heard "unison" and "divisi" before this video, as I'm in a wind orchestra and play flute.
Here's one to add. If you're only providing dynamic markings on organ scores with no registration suggestions, you leave the organist guessing what you want. In general, dynamic markings on organ scores only apply to the expression boxes (so that the softest stop with the box open is ff while the loudest stop with the box closed is pp even though it may still be quite loud).
I watched this with interest. I have a 1991 degree in composition, but switched to computer programming for a career. I learned to read scores at 13, and that along with listening has been my education since.
Much off the video was confusing for me. Most mistakes you discussed would have not occurred to me. For example, harp is not something that I would use.
I appreciate this video. It opens my eyes to ways to go wrong.
Great to hear, Brian! I'd say - build on the new knowledge with more score-reading, noticing where the reverse of certain errors (i.e. the right way of doing things you hadn't thought of before) represents solid approaches in the scoring of great composers. And even where they bend the rules in powerful ways, like the Mahler excerpt.
I’m a simple man. I see a new Orchestration Online video. I watch and click like
A very likeable and clickable comment.
A good example of the frailty of flutes is the last movement of Mendelssohn's Italian Symphony which features a flute trio. Note the very light scoring of it against the three flutes. This is what makes it a great piece - the orchestration, timbre and musical ideas.
I'm so glad I spent 9 years playing violin before majoring in piano in college . It makes orchestration 1/3rd easier . Winds not so difficult but brass took some real study . Fr.Horns add support even when you don't hear them . Percussion takes real imagination even after you've learned all their various techniques . Learned a lot about harp music here ! No. unisoni and divisi in brass and winds didn't know that !
I love your variations on that Chopin prelude! I know it was more for demonstration purposes, but it lends itself well for theme and vari form
Thanks so much! They were really fun to adapt, especially finding many different styles. I ended up not having time to write a tango variation, but maybe if I make another list I'll return to the idea.
Thanks! As a pianist, there's a whole bunch of stuff that I didn't realize I was doing. Subscribed!!!
Man, when I clicked on the video I thought this was gonna be interesting. When I saw the first seconds, I repented for a bit because I Thought it'd be a bit boring and the video was 24min long. But in the end, I enjoyed it more than I expected! You've gained a new subscriber :)
There's a sign at my job which, coincidentally, happens to be a useful piece of advice for orchestration as well: "A place for everything... everything in its place!"
The same sentiment, in a way, as Lili Boulanger's cantata "Vieille Prière Bouddhique."
I love what you did at the end with the pizz chord and the half note in the woodwinds; it almost sounded like a piano with a soft-sustain. Thanks for sharing this!
A sharp reminder of the many times forgotten basics. Totally useful.Thank you, Thomas.
Grettings from Chile.!!
Thank you so much for this. If only one had had such good teaching sooner.
*Scores everything at just plain "mezzo" and laughs and laughs and laughs.*
🤫
P.S. Slurred pizzicato = Slizzicato. Abbreviated "slizz."
I'll be here all week.
Evil! Eeeeeevil! 😃
You have no idea how many times I practiced saying staccato and pizzicato in the same sentence so I didn't end up saying "pitstaccato"
@@OrchestrationOnline I see no reason why we shouldn't add "pitstaccato" to the classical parlance. 🤔😂
@@OrchestrationOnline You clearly have a sweet tooth, given the examples you give... dessert... sorbetto.... we're gonna SLURP rather than 'slur' hehehe. Great tips by the way. Thanks a lot for your work and a lovely weekend!
@@OrchestrationOnline Jamais! ;)
@@OrchestrationOnline I just laughed up my coffee. It's a caff-tastrophe!!!
I totally agree with the first rule of avoiding mezzo piano and mezzo forte. Study the scores of Mahler, etc. and try to find an mp or an mf. There may be one or two but very few. Tepid, lukewarm dynamic markings give a tepid, lukewarm score.
Wow. I just found this channel today and I'm thrilled. I've been writing and orchestrating for nearly 50 years and all these tips were learned via the old school of hard knocks. I would have loved this kind of presentation years ago. Anyway, I'm subscribed and looking forward to getting into the website. I hope the challenge is still ongoing. Thanks so much for taking the time to do this.
Hi Charles! The 2021 Orchestration Challenge mentioned in the video is over and done - but the 2022 Challenge will start in a few months. It would be great to get an entry from you. 🙂 Thanks so much for your kind words about the channel. I'm so glad that it resonates with you.
So glad TH-cam recommended this video. I will definitely be checking out more of your content!
Thank you SO much for including the bit about showing the middle of the bar. It drives me BANANAS when people don't do this. Or worse, argue against this.
Hopefully we can all start a trend of doing it the right way. It harms nothing to get it right.
Just pretend it's two 2/4 measures with an invisible bar in the middle, unless it remains stupid easy to read after ignoring the invisible bar.
Very good video. Teaching scoring from the viewpoint of what not to do instead of what to do is a really good way of teaching. Since every score is different.
Exactly - and this will help even more (I hope) for them not to be the same in the sense of errors.
@@OrchestrationOnline Will you make a second channel so I can hear the complete version of your Fumblerule Variations on Chopin’s Prelude Op. 28, No. 7?
This is brilliant, opens up a whole new world. I have understood that the answer is to learn to play, at least a little, ALL of those instruments, so as to learn their practical difficulties, strengths and weaknesses, according to the tessitura. Many thanks.
11:10 in choral music, if two voices (e.g. Soprano and Alto) are shown on the same staff, then I would say unis is needed.
This is amazing, with a mere classical training in the guitar, and two years in classical piano, I can understand everything he is explaning, thanks!
Thank you so much for your comment, Ricardo! That is the best compliment of all - that my points are accessible and useful at many different levels and perspectives. I appreciate you letting me know.
The musical arrangement examples are awesome, hilarious, and genius! Thank you, Thomas!
Cheers, Bradley! 🍻
This was a very useful video. As someone who mostly arranges music for small ensembles, I find it hard to expand a piano part as described at 18:35 because I still have a similar natural limit to the number of voices/amount of sound the musicians can produce.
I'm in the process of arranging (expanding, somehow technically) the St. Anne Prelude and Fugue BWV 552 from the Busoni piano arrangement into a string nontet (4 vln, 2 vla, 2 vcl, and electric 5-string bass). I found these tips quite useful, and I'm so glad I've already taken the last 2 tips to heart. Hopefully I finish it in time to submit to you!
9:20 is the best part for me in this video. SO MANY SCORES are commiting this mistake, and it really confuses me.
As a pianist with no orchestral experience who has recently started playing with an amateur orchestra, this video was very interesting, thanks.
As a cellist, I have a lot of feelings about pizzicato with/without staccato. There is absolutely a distinction between long and short pizz on cello and bass, particularly on the low notes. On viola and violin, the player can sometimes appreciate a tiny difference in some cases but it's more in the intention... I'll admit it's pretty much inaudible. Anyway, classical cellists and bassists are often adjusting the length of their pizzicato contextually without it being specified. A related issue is that I sometimes write a long note for pizz bass, because I really want them to let it ring, but as string players we sometimes think we see an "arco" just because there's a half note written.
Bravo Thomas, this is such a fine video! So far as the Harp, I am no expert at scoring for the Harp, though I have used it in many of my works. What many composers do not know, is that (unlike the piano) the Harpist only plays with 4 fingers on each hand. Although you can use more than 8 notes in a 'roll," the Harpist can not play more than 8 notes at a time, as you can while playing piano. In my last 2 orchestral works that included Harp ("Autumn Poem" and "Ballad of Wounded Knee") I discussed the Harp parts with each Conductor before the rehearsals. The Harp parts in each piece were for "musical color" and "tone color," though I wanted the Harp just a bit more present in the "Ballad of Wounded Knee" than in the "Autumn Poem." Sometimes, just dynamic markings are not enough, and actual conversation is needed with the Conductor and/or musicians, to let them know the Composers "personal" wishes and/or intentions for particular instruments or parts beyond the written score.....Peace!
Really good points, Gerald! My next orchestration tips book will have a chapter called "No Pinkies!" 😃
@@OrchestrationOnline Ha ha! 😃
Another piece of advice, unless you have a harpist physically there, writing the part with you, Do Not Write The Pedal Changes. Harpists all have different styles with pedal movements, and will probably write their own pedal markings anyway. Pedal charts however are really helpful.
Fantastic video as always! Love learning about the small details about orchestration that make such large impacts for the players!
My pleasure, Scott!
I already knew of all of this, but I gladly liked and subscribed to your channel purely because of how well you explain, being down to earth with your explanations.
Great job!
That "Mahler" hurts my feelings. So happy I got in this at the beginning this time!
It would be great to get an entry from you, Chuck - and to soothe your wounds over my Mahliciousness, click through the link to my Mahler orchestration lessons on the Adagietto for some real love and learning about the piece.
6:21 As a rookie, I usually do this, using forte, 'cause I think it makes clear the bow stroke must be as forte as every string (specially the lowest one) must be played and keep sounding as long as possible 😅 But, obviously, I never use this on piano (p) dynamics.
The harp one is hilarious, the poor player struggling to play all those notes while drowned out anyway.
I know some harp players that would have killed the composer!
@@ericbingham-kumpfcomposer5293 I bet! Lol mozart harp and flute concerto is a prime example. The harp part is very hard because its written like a piano.
@@Rik77 Plucking individual strings and pressing keyboards are two different things.
@@ericbingham-kumpfcomposer5293 absolutely that's what I mean. Harpists hate the mozarr concerto for good reason.
@@Rik77 dont' say such things! I played it I was 14. It's not really difficult! Harpists don't hate this concerto! Harpists are just bored only to play this and Boieldieu that's all! But wait a few moment and you'll see that new concertos are coming 😉
This video is phenomenal! However it should be noted that this is directed toward a more classically trained orchestra
The same doesn't necessarily apply to other genres, like jazz for instance
With that said, when working orchestras into jazz, this is a really useful way to accomodate to the classically trained orchestra players!
I just discovered your channel and I love how straightforward and particular your advice is! If you (or anyone familiar with your channel) see(s) this, would you be able to point me in the direction of some good information specifically for wind/concert band? Thank you!
I am currently composing a piece for one of the least common and underappreciated ensemble types, the woodwind trio.
Great tips! As a violinist, though, I respectfully disagree with the triple/quadruple stop comment. I find it much easier to read triple/quadruple stops just written as block chords of arbitrary duration than seeing all those grace notes, which I would not play exactly the same way (the grace notes would audibly come before the beat; for a block chord, there's a negotiation so that the lower notes can arrive as close to the beat as possible without flagrantly delaying the upper notes). Bach's g minor violin sonata first movement ends on a g minor quadruple stop whole note - no violinist is going to attempt to play all 4 notes simultaneously. In orchestral music, it suffices to mark divisi to get all four notes to sustain, and to omit this to get the typical 2+2 rolling pattern for triple/quadruple stops.
Another hot tip. Low brass breathes every few notes in a fortissimo passage and still every other bar or so in any well-sustained mezzo. Watch the Fountains of Rome excerpt played live by any tuba/bone quartet and you'll see what I mean. Sincerely, your tubist.
You also have to keep in mind what the software allows. For example in musescore you have to mark the score ib terms of explicit literals for the correct effect as opposed to using more vauge terms for which the software has no rules and must ignore.
Wow. 3 minutes in and I have already subscribed....
~ 11:45 I've always made a distinction between phrase markings and slurs that this channel seems to blur. Granted there can occasionally be ambiguity e.g. when slurs include a lengthy string of notes but the distinction is usually obvious.
Not at all, Richard. I feel I'm being perfectly clear here. Piano-style phrasing is the use of the slur to denote a kind of phrased playing. But the slur marking means something different when applied to winds, brass and strings - the continuation of a single breath or bowstroke. Applying the former to the latter is an error. I'm making the distinction clear for piano-based composers.
@@OrchestrationOnline I'll take your viewpoint on board but generally I apply a rule of thumb, slurs are written between note heads (as are ties), phrase markings above note groups included. I would never describe the given example of Liszt's as employing a slur marking.
@@rjlchristie I think you're misunderstanding me here. A very long curved line over a phrase on a piano cannot usually be dropped onto a wind, brass, or string part because of the needs of those players to breathe, bow, and/or articulate. That is the entire point in the video. The word "slur" is used to describe the marking, not the function. If you look up the definition of the word "slur" on Wikipedia and in music theory dictionaries, you will see that the term is used to describe the marking of the curved line whether it is used to group short notes in a connected way, or longer passages of notes as a phrase.
@12:57 this one is so true! I had this exact situation in “The Stars and Stripes Forever” it was absolutely brutal to deal with.
It can be a tricky judgment sometimes. I'm not completely condemning it, but there always is a danger of a heavily-slurred work turning into slosh.
Thank you very much for creating this video and sharing orchestration tips! They are very helpful. I'm so grateful I found your video. So inspiring! Thanks very much.
12:30 they probably don't know that a slur denotes bowing in a string part. they probably think it just indicates "phrasing"
One of my most embarrassing moments in music school was in composition class involving transposing errors. I was conducting a chamber group playing a short, (thankfully) piece of mine.
I really loved the string chords you put underneath the flute part at 16:20 (even if the dynamics were unbalanced). Definitely worth repeating at the end!
18:50 Alkan seems to be very good at filling stuff in despite this. Sometimes it genuinely feels like there's more stuff there than there actually is.
EDIT: It's worth mentioning Alkan's Concerto and Symphony for Solo Piano.
Thank You very much sir for telling these mistakes!
💛🙏
Great video, thanks! 👍🙏 It would be great to have more audio examples here and there domonstrating what you explain (slurred pizz. etc.)..but that would be a great amount of additional work guess..
I know the video is more about instrumental orchestration, and perhaps this topic was covered in a different video, but I was thinking of another exception to "splitting the middle", particularly when it comes to vocal music. To my understanding, and especially within scores of older composeres, a lot of barred notes (8ths, 16ths, etc.) tend to irregularly extend or split the note bars (or dots) based on the syllable that's being sung. For example, if you have a single syllable on one 8th or 16th note, and the next 8th/16th note is a different syllable, the notes will not be connected by a bar, but the lone syllable will appear under an unbarred note (with it's standard curved "flag").
im sharing your channel with everyone. The explanations and the examples are absolutely gold. From a student of musical composition who is learning the beautiful world of orchestration: Thank you so much, you are awesome!
I really appreciate your wonderful comment. I'm so glad that my resources are useful to you. Thanks for letting me know.
Thank you for this! I only wish this was made sooner- some of these tips I didn’t encounter until my master’s degree.
Thank you so much. You have no idea how much you're helping me.
Very good tips! Love it! keep up the great work.
Excellent video and insights, thank you!
Funny, at 17:05 I was thinking that, except for a few of the lowest notes in that passage, I would have thought the flute SHOULD be able to cut through the strings IF the strings played softly enough- like if the strings were at pp or ppp and the flute were at mp or something. So I appreciated your little "post-it note" in the score! :-) (Of course, if that passage were a dynamics "who can play loudest" contest, or in many similar cases, the strings would totally wipe out the sound of the flute in that low register, as you point out.)
thank you for this video, these are really good tips. I had a question though. why should unison and divisi only be used for strings?
Good question. When scoring for strings, since the instruments have multiple strings, the bow can play two strings at the same time, creating a harmonic interval or two independent voices. This is called a "double stop." Three or four strings can be played nearly simultaneously with a fast stroke, or slower and intentionally rolled or broken. This is called a "triple-stop" or a "quadruple stop." When you want each player to play all the pitches in this way, it's called "non divisi" - meaning "undivided." But sometimes playing both notes on the same instrument isn't very workable. In this case, you tell the string players "divisi", letting them know that they can divide the pitches between two or more players. When this is finished and you intend them all to play together, then you tell them "unison" - meaning all players come back together to play single notes together.
So here's the thing. Brass and winds cannot play more than one pitch at a time (except for multiphonics, which is as special technique). So there is no need to tell them "divisi" and "unison" - those terms do not apply to them, except as I mentioned in band scoring where you might have a large section of clarinets or some other instrument, and you need to tell them to divide two pitches between all the players instead of just the amount of players per pitch. But that is not a thing in concert orchestration.
Here some tips specific to strings:
i don't know who needs to hear this, but dont make string players play left hand pizzicato, it has pretty much the same effect as pizzicato, but is just overly hard.
This is probably already said somewhere, but don't make string players switch from arco to pizzicato too quickly, especially double bassists struggle with changing their grip on such a large bow in a fast manner.
Try avoid string crossings that move over two strings repeatedly at quick tempos . Either make two players play at different registers, slow it down or change it completely.
Try to avoid double stops when writing for the double bass section. This often creates a muddy an unclear texture, and unless you're going for it, try to avoid doing that.
These final tips are pet peeves of mine, but shouldn't necessarily be avoided. Excessive use of trills or fast pizzicato is tiring and often annoying to play, and I myself don't like playing it, but if it benefits your piece, go ahead.
Also WRITE MORE DOUBLE BASS CONCERTOS!! The bass is a very under-utilized instrument, but composers like bottesini, frank proto. Andres Martin and vanhal have written wonderful concertos for the instrument. Hopefully composers will be inspired by them.
What an amazing resource. Do you have Patreon or similar?
Thanks so much! Yes, I do have a Patreon account. Just look for Orchestration Online. I would be honoured by your support.
@@OrchestrationOnline maybe a private lesson or two wpuld be uaeful to me too. i will def book someyhing thru ur sitr thank u for your effort.
Thanks, very helpful as seen in midst orchestration.
Hey, thanks for the video! What is the piece at 6:13? It sounds quite nice :D
I've been running on fumes and vibes starting out (several years piano experience, a bit of cello and clarinet) so this will help a lot!
Excellent, thank you!
Good video, thank you for sharing!!!
At 8:12, can you/should you break the beaming of the quarter notes to help emphasize the phrasing, especially in the left side example in 4/4? Shortly after you demonstrate how and why Mahler does it, but in the alternate version at 8:12 is specifically what I'm wondering about.
A flag on the 2nd 8th note of beat 3 is a standard engraving approach designed to help clarify the rhythm, but it's not always observed by engravers (or composers!).
Gold mine video. Thanks
BEST WISHES TO YOU, SIR
Add this video to my need to watch more than once list!
thank you for making this this will be really useful for me
Great work again. 🙏🙏🙏
I think it would be extremely helpful if you posted a video explaining your knowledge on the differences between the overtones of instruments in different families as well as the differences within the families (Example: Violin vs Viola) .
Additionally I can not find any information on the wave-forms of the different families/instruments but you seem to have knowledge on that. If you even pointed me in a direction to find more information on that it would be very helpful.
Great idea for an orchestration tip, actually - comparing the overtones of violin, viola, and cello on the same tone; but going even a bit further to examine how that affects voice-crossings (like viola playing bass during a cello solo, or cellos above violas and/or violins). Thanks! I'll put it in the next book.
For now, though, I direct your attention to the diagrams in my second book, 100 MORE Orchestration Tips. I use spectrum charts to show the differences in tone between muted and unmuted heavy brass and strings, stopped and open horns, etc. That might be helpful.
@@OrchestrationOnline Wow, that is wonderful. I'll be looking forward to reading about that when your next book comes out! That would be very interesting to take it further like you mentioned. Luckily I already have 100 Orchestration Tips and 100 MORE Orchestration Tips! I will check out those spectrum charts. Thanks for everything you do.
very good points - nice mandolin collection there too mate!
A great excerpt to offer your viewers to score is the 8 bar into to Chopin's first Ballade. It would be a great lesson when to fill in supporting notes or not to with an octave line inn different ranges. Maybe as a warm-up exercise.
The 12 (painful) truths we all needed to hear
It makes me happy to know that I already don't do these things. Great video
Like the reminder of the difference between marking sol, unison and alternation of players with woodwinds/brass and strings.
Also writing for harp successfully is very difficult - aside from throwing piano parts into the harp.
I'm definitely guilty of adding slurs to upbeats! So thank you very much for making me aware of that!
On the very long phrasing slurs in Liszt: Wagner and Strauss did this a lot too. Strauss as a conductor handled these moments (the Stokowski-way 😂) by allowing the players of the section to decide individually for themselves how many notes they can play within one bow stroke. In a section the individual bow charges won't be noticed so the end result will be one long legato line.
What was the piece at 13:18?
Great video btw!
Hi Charlie! Gotta watch the credits, I always list the music. The entire soundtrack to this video is my "Fumblerule Variations" on the Chopin Prelude in A Major. Not trying to impress anyone with it, just using various twists on a familiar piece to illustrate errors and potential pitfalls.
So yeah, that jazzy variation is likewise just a reinterpretation of the Chopin Prelude in A.
Thanks so much for your kind words.
These tips are absolutely amazing, please make more stuff like this!
A fine example of following the rules so as not to commit error number 11 is Pictures At An Exhibition as is was written for piano v how the orchestral version was done.
Or Une Barque sur l’océan, which Orchestration Online has an entire series on! The arpeggios are often too impractical for transcription from piano to instrument parts, so Ravel completely reworked them and made them more textural
Great topic! Thank you so much for sharing!
Really happy to, Erik! I've planned this video for over a year.
its a good feeling when you watch this video and then see that you haven't made any of these mistakes in your score :))
Good on you, Willow!
Lots of useful things here. Regarding 4. Its quite common in classical music to just write the chord, knowing that it won't be played that way. The convention is understood by string players. A quadruple stop chord, is never expected to be played as a simultsneous 4 note chord. So I don't really see a problem writing that, as long as the composer knows how it will be executed. Context is important of course.
The problem is that the stops are scored in such a way that illustrates the composer indeed does NOT know how it will be executed - as in tying a quadruple stop across a barline (or many barlines), or scoring a long duration that doesn't work against the rest of the music unless all four strings are being played. Or the scoring will not take into account the need to arpeggiate or break the chord; nor the further effect of an articulation mark in dragging out or biting down on the lower strings. It is an error when it's scored in such a way that it's obvious the orchestrator took none of this into account, and I'm seeing scores in which that happens frequently.
@@OrchestrationOnline ah yes thank you. I understand exactly what you mean. That absolutely makes sense.
Most drumming notation software would put the snare on the "C" place, but the actual place of the snare is in the "A". You now see snare on the C because how common this error went, but before scoring softwares, you saw the snare on the A more frequently.
As much as I agree with what you say, even more important is a basic lack of musical training in harmony, counterpoint, and development of material by new orchestrators who are arranging and composing. Decent orchestration EMERGES from a sound musical training and awareness of basic harmony, voicings, etc. I know it's old fashioned nowadays, but orchestration is a very complicated business, and if you cannot write a simple three-part piece without glaring mistakes, writing for a whole orchestra is going to be impossible. The vast majority of wannabe orchestraters have a basic lack of musical knowledge. They should start with very simple pieces before attempting vast orchestrations.
True that, if you're noob you gotta be humble and start small, I often start with piano and flute and go on for that, usually works, if I try orchestra I end up not doing anything 😅
Susan Allen at CalArts would've had a bunch of f-bombs at dumping a piano part into the harp part. You quickly learned. :)
Very good advices!
So many of theses are known especially if you have played in an orchestra! I learned about the timid dynamics when recording my string quartet! Also, its fun to guess the mistake before you say it. Thanks for the great content! edit. 18:00 ha! Composers have never cared for players feelings lol, jk, jk, *they didn't seem to!
In some intriguing way it would be very interesting to compose a piece which in purpose tries to include as much cliche errors as possible and hateful moments for every instrument player equally. Only to spare that romantic climax for a flute for a recorder instead. :D
I agree with all! Thanks!
What is the piece at 9:30?
Wait I just found its chopin prelude in A
i really agree with this "timid dynamics" thing, but would like more explanations on this. Sometimes mf really needs a whole section. I guess the confusion starts with mf>mp mp>mf everywhere, then it becomes just another way of saying F and p, but then you loose the meaning of p and F
Thomas thanks for the video as usual very beautiful teaching and lesson. I can't wait for your more videos at 15:00 its looks crazy man and full of notes
Yeah haha that's me being excessively Lisztian for fun, just to make the poor imaginary harpist's life hell. 😃 Thank you for your very kind words, that makes me want to do more videos like this.
@@OrchestrationOnline Thomas you are a Genius it's my word.
That Chopin's prelude crazy orchestration really made my day🤣🤣
No offence obv, we all make mistakes
Great stuff, just one question: Why horns in E and not in F?
Because, as I say in the video, the orchestration at 21:52 is "using the orchestra of the day." Notice that all the pitches are negotiable on the natural horns as open tones, except for the stopped F4 and the 1/2-stopped A4 (which would be common to score in the 1830's, as we see in Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique and other scores of the period). Horn in E is chosen because the range of open pitches is ideal. Horns were often scored in the dominant of the given key, for their ability to facilitate a modulation to the V in a sonata allegro.