Orchestration Question 13: 8va Do's & Don't's
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 ก.พ. 2018
- A system for understanding which orchestral instruments use 8va and which don't - excerpted from "100 Orchestration Tips" and "100 MORE Orchestration Tips."
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As a [insert instrument] player, i [insert opinion]
This is my favourite comment on this whole video. It's absolutely unrefutable.
@@OrchestrationOnline thanks :D
as a violinist i wanna kid when we don’t have the melody 😭
@@OrchestrationOnline Actually some violinists and flutists prefer the octave sign because they might have bad eyesight and can't read ledger lines above the staff anymore.
@@RockStarOscarStern634 Many different musicians prefer different ways of doing things. The semipros to top pros that I've talked to hugely support the position in this video. If the people you work with want something different, of course that's fine.
English teachers: "It is unacceptable to use textspeak or other similar abbreviations in any serious academic writing"
Composers: *Laughs in 8va, 8vb, 15ma, and 15mb*
Me, a drummer and guitarist: *Laughs in here it gets louder, that note is a D# and here's where you play the first note*
Yeah, I definitely use 8va in my writing. For any instrument. I think clefs are generally obsolete at this point.
InventorZahran 327 - does 15 mean “2 octaves?”
@@thecreativegeek7886 Yes, that's what it means.
@@thecreativegeek7886 Yes.
As a pianist, one of the most annoying things is when composers use Ottava Alta in Bass Clef or Ottava Bassa in Treble Clef. The clef shift is much easier to process because we’re used to switching clefs quickly.
Yes, that's right.
@@scarbotheblacksheep9520 What’s in between 8va bass and 8vb treble:
*ALTO CLEF*
@@scarbotheblacksheep9520 I used alto clef in this:
th-cam.com/video/wqAma6DlWd4/w-d-xo.html
I disagree. I prefer treble in the right hand, bass in the left. I prefer 8va or 8vb; it can be used for both hands at the same time.
Didn’t even know people did that lol
As a professional flutist I suppose I have become use to seeing 8va over the years and my brain doesn’t hesitate to take what I’m seeing and correct it with the appropriate fingering for the intended octave.
That being said, it does at times seem unnecessary to have everyday high register notes being written with 8va. Seeing it as it should be written also let’s me know the kind of air to prep the note with, and can help me bring the intensity for certain symphonies. When I see parts from Tchaikovsky or Shostakovich‘s symphonies I know he wrote the parts way up there because he wanted my part to be heard in that point in time.
The only time I’m completely okay with 8va is when I have pages of high consecutive fast notes. Then after a while the ledger lines can play tricks on the eyes.
As a harpist, I definitely appreciate 8va where it's needed. Ledger lines are annoying!
Same thing for me as a percussionist (although still in high school, so not the most experienced). I find it to be a struggle to decipher any more than 1 or 2 measure lines. Bringing it into the staff just makes it a lot easier to read. But that will probably improve with time.
as a pianist i sometimes even use 15va...
@@sebastianzaczek *15ma
Yes my bad, 15ma is right :D
The real takeaway here is that you don't have to notate the score and the parts the same way. Performers and conductors aren't reading the same way, so specialize your written parts to the instruments but keep the score easy to read at a glance.
My take on parts is: if it still uses leger lines _with_ an 8va, then it should get an 8va. I say this not as an orchestrator, but as a performer. I have difficulty distinguishing six leger lines from five on sight, so I'm quite likely to misread a flute's top octave D as a B, and will pencil the note heads in an octave lower to make it easier to read. Even the fifth leger line slows down my reactions. I understand the "paper to fingers" argument, but to me it breaks down when the notes become difficult to distinguish visually. As said, for me that's anything more than five leger lines. Obviously this does not apply if a clef change is more appropriate than an 8va.
When in doubt, be prepared to offer it both ways. Computers are really helpful for that sort of thing, so why commit to exactly one method? I know trombone players that never, ever want to see a tenor clef. Of those, some want an 8va and others want leger lines. I know trumpet players that want everything in concert pitch, so they can choose the instrument they think most suitable and worry about the transposition themselves. (Why not, it's how tuba players operate.)
A very very knowledgeable and Insightful comment, I seldom hit the like button. As a trombone player, I generally prefer ledger lines until I hit C5 in first position, at and above that I prefer 8va. However, I prefer both ledger lines or 8va in either situation to tenor clef. Tenor clef is great to know in the case of learning transposing B flat treble clef parts, but is not practical. And Alto clef is 1 note away from being 8va that 8va is actually more efficient to the purpose AND it's obviously easier to understand 8va than what is effectively 7va. But everybody does have their preferences. And 8va is great for conserving the space on the score as stated at 8:40 . My preference just so happens to use 8va when the 8va has its first ledger line which is what you stated in your comment. I pretty much agree with everything your comment says.
I've played some Bass Trombone music that goes down to pedals, and when that happens it's okay to use 8vb/8ba because they're played with the exact same slide positions as the notes an octave higher. That also applies to tuba pedals, or pedals on and brass instrument.
I would say 8vas/8vbs are never hard to play on trombone
Idont Know Eh, don’t use 8va if you’re writing for trombone in an orchestra, just use tenor
i play tuba and to be honest i really don't appreciate the 8vb just because i'm used to reading the ledger lines. Also going down to that range is not the the same fingering usually you add the 4th or 5th valve to the valve combination and sometimes you have to add more because of how sharp the note will sound because of how low it is.
@@calvinpederson5665 Yeah, Tuba has different fingerings for lower stuff so it makes sense to not use 8vb, but Bass Trombone doesn't use different positions so it makes sense to use 8vb.
I could see both 8va and 8vb being usefull when writing for EWI though, considering the fingerings are the same.
I've noticed some confusion arising at 1:45 concerning my indication of G above the double bass staff as being "G3" instead of "G4." That is because double bass players transpose down an octave. The G above the staff that they read sounds an octave lower in concert pitch.
OrchestrationOnline: I find that when it comes to saxophones that reach altissimo, especially in concerti and solos that the saxophonist can easily read 8va. Simply anything above the staff is altissimo, and provides visual assurance that the note does in fact reach altissimo for both the player and the composer. My favorite example is Claude T Smiths Fantasia. This especially is true when you reach the outer limits of altissimo, which when included can give the saxophone a 3.5-4 octave range.
@Michael Persico My Patreon supporters have no problem with this. For you, it's free. Life is way too short focus to be worrying about things like this. Everyone understands what I mean. Now back to work on our careers.
Tuba player here, I'm not sure if you are using official terms or not for what the tubas pedal range is, but usually since we all start on BBb tubas we call notes lower than E1 pedals. Also although this range is often neglected by composers, tubas can go well below Bb0 and those notes and a few above Bb0 all should use 8ba.
@@TheDbird90 However 8vb could be useful for a 5 String Cello if you're playing Violin Concertos on it.
@@OrchestrationOnline instead if writing Double Bass Concertos I would simply arrange Violin Concertos for Double Bass. 15vb for a Double Bass would work if you have a 5 String Double Bass tuned in Fifths (C1, G1, D2, A2, E3 via Pirastro Obligato Fifths tuning Strings plus High E Solo).
As a flute player, I don’t care either way, as my mind will see the 8va and automatically go to the higher fingerings, with nothing but a very slight pause.
Thank you for noting the difference between 8va in the score and 8va in the parts. As you say, in a score every tiny bit of space matters, and a conductor needs to be able to read multiple parts at a glance. But especially for people using modern composer software, it's all too easy to neglect to remove the 8va when you transition from full score to individual parts
As a tubist, sometimes I will take the music an octave down even when the 8va is not present. We tubists love pedal notes down there.
Im confused on 7:50, as a flute player I can very well play every note from octave 2 an octave higher with change in blow speed and no change in fingering, barring b natural and C. (This is unconventional but still doable)
An 8va due cause some confusion but it isn't as difficult as you say it to be.
It's not about what's doable - it's about what's necessary. Most concert flute players are telling me that 8va isn't necessary and that it's occasionally confusing if not annoying. Some of my points have a little dramatic license for clarity.
@@OrchestrationOnline As a beginner flute player, I welcomed 8va, since I was not very proficient at reading ledger lines above the staff. Now that my sight reading is much better, I find no reason for 8va. I can just as easily have read the notes written in the correct octave.
It's not difficult at all. I also play flute, and we see 8va all the time. This idea that somehow professional musicians can parse out complicated rhythms but get stymied by 8va is...a bit condescending. Since I've learned what 8va is, I've never mistakenly played down an octave, and I don't know any flute players who have ever struggled with this. It's a solution looking for a problem.
as a classical double bassist, I respectfully disagree with this. I know that myself and many of my double bass colleagues prefer octave octave ups rather reading a different clef. Additionally, if you write high for a double bass and don’t want to use the octave up, simply skip tenor clef and go directly to treble clef.
Pretty much very double bass soloist I've ever worked with reads tenor clef like it was nothing. It shows up in several key scores, and anyone wanting a job with a major orchestra had better be able to read it. There are almost zero 8va parts in the standard concert repertoire for bass - but plenty in treble clef.
I am in agreement with Evan here. When I see tenor clef it makes me think 1950s to 1970s. There has been a shift in double bass education. Tenor clef is a bit of a hassle. I cut my teeth on a Italian Edition of the Bottesini Concerto in B minor that was bass clef 8va. Also, these days a lot of bass players are reading at least the first two Bach Cello Suites from the original cello editions and read it 8va. Other than that, a lot of modern editions of classical solo pieces are written in treble clef. As for orchestrating in that range, Ricard Strauss and Ginastera didn't have qualms with writing around e sounding-pitch at the bottom of the treble clef. Now, double bass is never going to cut up there like a cello, but it's going to have soul.
Heck no, as a tenor, I can tell you not many amateur tenors can read tenor clefs.. They even have trouble with bass clefs, instead of soprano clefs sung an octave lower.
Honestly, they should all use it. It’s so much simpler than learning another clef or excessive ledger lines. I don’t care about customs and traditions.
Having played clarinet, bassoon and guitar (in addition to composing) I always found 8va easier.
Be very careful before you score it for a major orchestra.
It’s a very personal thing
Honestly, I only like seeing 8va on piano
Reading ledger lines for me is almost second nature
I like the practice of British brass bands to write all instruments (except the bass trombone) in transposed treble clef, including the e-flat and b-flat tuba sections. But don't give those scores to people outside the brass band world, though... ;)
I also had one of those tried-to-be-helpful moments when scoring for orchestra in school. I put the trombone in tenor clef, because as I bassoonist I know how much easier that is to read than a bunch of ledger lines. (Not to mention 8va, which is a nuisance due to making a mess of which notes are on the lines and which are between them.) But the trombone player that ended up playing the part came from the jazz department and couldn't read it, so I had to quickly write a new part. I guess the moral of my story is to know your player, and not make assumptions based on your own preferences.
The info in the video is solid. The only thing I want to add (besides the above asides) is that extra care is needed when writing for inexperienced musicians. A pro bassoonist will thank you for switching to tenor clef, but I know quite decent amateur players who prefer three ledger lines to a clef change, because they're still not used to it. (I make sure my bassoon students learn tenor clef, though.) If in doubt, ask a player (if you're writing for pros) or a teacher.
As an amateur violin player, I actually disagree about avoiding 8va in violin scores. Granted, they are confusing when used in scales, but if an entire section is very high, it is much easier to read with 8va. For me, there is not direct connection between printed notes and fingers but rather between the notes and the sounds. The high positions need some practice anyway, and this is much easier if you don't have to count ledger lines all the time. Note that this may be different for a professional violinist.
Pretty much every pro violinist I've discussed this with disagrees, but I appreciate your perspective.
It is probably a matter of convention. These days, with some practice, I don't mind ledger lines as much as I used to. Now my pet peeve is uneven spacing of ledger lines, including ledger line spacing that is different from staff line spacing, which is unfortunately quite common in handwritten scores. In that case, I would always prefer 8va notation.
Sören Schulze It's not a matter of convention but a matter of simplicity. Professional violinists have spent so many thousands of hours reading ledger lines and practicing higher positions that it's as second nature as reading in the staff for other instruments. 8va adds a whole element of transposition to reading the music. It also creates a very sudden, jarring spacial shift in note reading. Suddenly everything is higher than it looks on the page, and when it ends, suddenly everything is lower than you're forcing yourself to read. It's disorienting and takes much more processing power and detracts from reaction time, not to mention overriding the subconscious reading of tonal and hand frame requirements of the notes on the page.
You say you're an amateur violinist, so you're probably playing at home where you can work out these things over time in practicing. There is no shame or less in that. Good for you at committing to an instrument and working to progress. 💜 Pros, however, have to sightread more advanced music with much fewer run-throughs and have to balance far more music in much shorter periods of time. They don't have 6+ months to perfect a very small range of pieces, and non-ideal notation doesn't make life easier.
Nah, I’m a violinist and 8va really confuses me. It’s much easier to read the ledger lines. Most violinist agree with me and this video. You are an exception
@@longliveclassicmusicBut then professionals should be able to do both, so this is really not much of an issue.
Love it, you saved my day i was guessing what to do (with my pianist mind) editing the score and the partichelas for a string quartet composition that i'm doing. THANKS A LOT!
As a saxophonist (and for those who want to score for saxophone), written C7 is legible. If you want to use anything higher than that, you are getting into specialist altissimo range. But if you are going to score that high, please start and finish the octava at the start and ends of phrases, rather than throwing it on the odd note
Nice video, clear and informative as always, and a nice little look at Sacrificial Dance (160?) at 8:45
That joke at 2:58 is one of your best! You had me laughing out loud!
what joke?
I am a clarinet student but I like very mutch to watch You'r videos about orchestration and the instrument groups...very interesting the point of view of an orchestrator (composer) comparing to Me, the player. Make Me thinking out of the box and stimulate to think the big picture not just may horizontaly part. I think a little orchestration is usefull for every musician to understand the group of instruments, how they work, the logic of the score,etc. Thank You Thomas for the excellent work...I wish to have a professor like You..but thanks for the internet, at least I can watch You in this content!:) Greatings from Romania
Ravel's piano concerto for the left hand contains a bass part with 8va for a harmonic at the 30th rehearsal mark, is it coincidence that that page is one of my favorite moments from the piece?
My favorite use of the contrabass section above written G4 might be the 3rd bar of rehearsal 20 in the finale of Mahler's 3rd. Unison with the first violins low on their G string, with the violas and cellos on D5 together above for a very forced, not to mention unusual sound.
Fantastic video! I will make sure our arranging and composition teacher shows this to the whole class! As we are in the process of writing a piece for our symphony orchestra. (Gävle Symfoniorkester)
As a flutist, I rarely find 8va overly irritating or troublesome, but often simply unnecessary, because we can easily navigate ledger lines for our entire range. There are definitely parts I have read where just a few bars earlier a G6 was written in ledger lines, but suddenly a passage in a similar range is written with 8va - it just looks ridiculous. However, I admit that occasionally we do lose count of the number or ledgers while playing way up there, and especially with large leaps I have under or overestimated the pitch. In those cases (like the G6-D7) range, I would actually appreciate 8va.
I just discovered this video after my flute player on my arrangement played an octave lower than what I intended. Won't include octave markings next time.
I use 8va for Double Bass in my Song Covers because it's for a Harmonica player who is going under surgery.
I’m glad you got to the possibility that the score and part differs. That’s a big part of what could confuse a young composer, if he is only reading scores. Thankfully, most modern scores get precise so that it doesn’t get confusing in rehearsals. For really high notes, sometimes you should just get a piccolo or Eb clarinet. Or go rethink your life.
Could you do a video on writing harmonics for string instruments? Possible sub-topics: notation, playability, tone quality.
My professor, who was an amazing musician, (sadly, now gone) wrote a brilliant Sonata for Tuba and Piano. It's in the style of 20th century meets Romantic. Really fantastic. His name was Luis Pisciotta. If you're a Tubist, I highly recommend his piece. I believe it's published by "Sound Idea Publications". It was even performed in Carnegie Hall. Great video as always here!
excelent instruction! thank you so much!
Great video!
Marching music for flute is often written with 8va. Composers: don’t do this! Also, for flutists, please stop asking us for stratospheric high notes. Just use the damn piccolo
you are right about the marching band music
I second this! I learned flute several years into my composing career just to diversify my skill set. I quickly abandoned trying to write high notes for flute unless I had a very good reason to! :D
You won't be able to hear the flutes if they aren't playing in at least third octave.
Same for clarinets. I think composer insists to write those note for woodwinds in order to be heard over the brasses. Remember marching band acoustics (is that even a thing?) are very different from a concert hall.
Your last example was of a full score. Surely 8ve notation is preferable in that case and for also for conductor's scores....I would think that as long as the extracted part for flute was written correctly that's all that would matter...
Great video! you saved me some sour looks from string players in the near future...I had NO idea that 8ve writing practice was a no-no!
Glad to hear it. Always nice to know when advice is going to be put to good use. I do address the score-only approach to 8va if you need to save vertical space in a score. But then I show how some copyists needlessly transfer those marks into parts.
1:07 Use Tenor Clef for the High Notes but if you go higher than that into Treble Clef do that Occasionally or if your piece is a Double Bass Concerto.
Hello. Im from Mumbai and I do watch your videos a lot. Thank you for such amazing material. Interestingly in the bollywood music industry, violinists hate ledger lines and consider octava reading as a basic and most essential skill.😅
Excellent.
I like it. Makes it easier for player to say "naw I ain't doin that." and play it in the normal/"correct" octave.
I have a 5 String Cello and anything written for Violin can be played on the 5 String Cello cause with a High E String the Cellist can simply play the Solo Violin part down an Octave, and for a 5Bass (5 String Double Bass tuned in Fifths an Octave below the 5 String Cello) the Solo Violin parts will sound 2 Octaves lower than written.
As a flutist I love the 8va , i have no problem to read the right notes
It's interesting about that double bass tip because Shostakovich actually uses a treble clef A3 and Bb3 (written actually as A4 and Bb4) in his Symphony No. 10, movement 2.
As a classical bassist, we generally use 8vb treble clef for high parts. We are not like cellists and do not use tenor. The reason we use 8vb treble is because the bass is a transposing instrument. We transpose an octave down so we also play in 8vb bass clef. Please never use tenor clef for basses. Most of us find that confusing as our high solo parts are normally in treble.
I've seen tenor clef in a few concert bass parts, usually concertos. As to 8vb treble clef, that is taken as a given in this video, that all clefs sound down an octave. :-)
I not questioning the existence of tenor clef in solo or orchestral playing, rather it's usefulness. For example, I two copies of Edouard Nanny's "Dragonetti" concerto published by two different publishers.. One uses tenor, treble, and bass clef while the other only uses treble and bass. In the first publication it often changes between the three clefs quickly which can be confusing. I see you have covered the double bass often and have even composed an entire concerto for bass, the bass community needs more people like you, but most bassists find tenor, like 8va, disruptive to our finger patterns because we are used to reading ledger lines all the way up to thumb position G. Anyways, I think this is a great video and it will hopefully stop some of tomorrow's composers from giving us an necessary helping hand.
Beautifully put, especially that last sentence. I find that many attempts to be helpful (without checking first) have led to numerous unhelpful practices by composers. In all fairness, a lot of my tips are really just "druthers" rather than out-and-out rules, as I've picked them up from players over the years. Thanks so much for your kind words.
Great! Thank you!
As a violinist, I actually prefer 8va in any note or passage whose average pitch is higher than an A6; I don't personally think in terms of how many ledger lines determines where to place the fingers, and I'm not familiar with any others that do, and thus see no problem with 8va. Where do you think our disconnect might be?
I cannot explain why your experience is different from the very many violinists I've met who think differently. I can only say what their preference is. Also my own preference as an ex-violinist and violist, and occasional mandolinist. But the thing to remember here is that these tips are more about "druthers" than absolute rules. Of course there are always exceptions from piece to piece and player to player.
If you want your music to sound good, then write the individual parts in the way that is easiest and most familiar for the player of that instrument to read. Great video!
As a violinist, 8va's actually annoy me. They are harder to read for me than the actual notes.
As a violinist, I feel precisely the opposite way. In fact, 8va is very common in orchestral play, and I strongly prefer that way over counting endless overlines, especially when sight-reading.
As a flutist its hella helpful.
@@YouennF What orchestra do you play with?
@@OrchestrationOnline I never played professionally in an orchestra, (well, not full time anyway- I've been hired to play in many orchestras for short term gigs, and I've played long-term with many volunteer and student orchestras) but as a violinist when it gets to more than 4 or 5 ledger lines above staff I prefer reading 8va as well, esp. when sight reading, and esp. with giant leaps- like if you're at, say the "G" at the top of the staff or "A" with one ledger line, and suddenly it leaps to some note with like 9 ledger lines, then, let's say it jumps back and forth between those registers- my brain goes- "WTF?!!!" I'd rather see the 8va so I can wrap my head around the notes/intervals and plan out the fingering before I play it.
If the motion is staying mostly step-wise or within a 5th or so I can see preferring not using the 8va. But I stopped training in violin in late teens/early twenties and switched to composition. So perhaps if I'd stayed on the violin track I'd be singing a different tune today. Who knows. But then, I'd also likely not be watching this video.
@@OrchestrationOnline I'd like to thank you for these videos. It's very difficult to get orchestras to read ones music at all, let alone play it enough to let one experiment, change things and try again so one can learn the intricacies of the craft. I wish this channel existed when I was a student and writing for orchestra. It might have saved me some embarrassing and even humiliating moments.
I tend to use clef changes instead of 8va. I can still see it as a bit of a pet peeve for most guitarists, and definitely bowed strings, however, with guitar parts, I often add a tab for frets, and generally leave the clef parts for rhythm. it helps stop notes walking onto other staves how I write.
1:09 Going intro Treble Clef, do that occasionally for Double Bass parts or that your piece is a Double Bass Concerto, in my Case it's Paganini's Violin Concerto No 1 in D Major transcribed for Double Bass in Fifths Tuning.
I love this. Just found your channel and subscribed. I hate that as a composer I feel I'll never get every tip down, even after 20 years so much little rules for all the instruments, none of which I play except, you guessed it, piano. Is there a first book I can purchase for the first 100 rules. I have a lot of compositions with all the notes in place but I often procrastinate the editing part and continue writing. I am correcting that bad habit in my 40s.
On the guitar you do use it. You can go as high as E3 but the positions are the same an octave higher. The frets are smaller but the fingerings can be the same. You may use different fingerprints for the higher octave more intently but they still appear in the lower one. There's 6 different places you can play E1 so we're use to doing the same voicings in different positions. The guitar is very difficult. One question I have is how do you write down the same note being played on three different strings on the same instrument?
Nice video.
Tubist often practice pieces an octave lower so the technique and reading should not be a problem. Tubas plays easily down to G0 and some plays down to E0, just don't have runs down there. Long and fat chords would love to have that deep bass!
Thanks, Thomas!
My pleasure, Enrique!
As a multi-instrumentalist, I find that the use of 8va or 8vb is very situational, and sometimes I prefer ledger lines and sometimes I prefer 8va or 8vb, even on the same instrument.
For woodwinds and brass, it’s almost always easier to play with ledger lines, and if the ledger lines make it harder to read, writing note names isn’t hard to do. I personally prefer 8va to tenor clef for low brass, but I can read up to an octave above middle c fine, and you really shouldn’t be writing that high for the most part.
For strings, it depends on what you’re doing. While you say in the video that it’s better to avoid 8va, I personally find it easier depending on the situation. I’ve barely played any bowed strings other than bass, and most of the time I personally find it easier to read 8va, yet if you’re writing that high for a bass, you might want to rethink it.
For guitar and electric bass, 8va is always easier for me to read. 8vb is never useful on guitar, as guitarists can read anywhere down to the bottom of the range of the instrument, even if it seems like too many ledger lines.
Really, though, just don’t use them if you don’t know for sure if it will help. Some people may prefer it, and some other people may find ledger lines to be a non-issue. People who struggle with ledger lines can just write the note names and be fine.
I'm not a violinist by any means, but I did read in Elaine Gould's book "Behind Bars" that 8va should never be used for violins. As said on the video, they're used to reading ledger lines.
Low pedal tones on bass trombone (F1 and lower) will usually like an octave above shown in parenthesis just for the first instance.
As a flutist, I totally second the idea that 8va tends to interfere with ingrained fingerings, but with the caveat that in something like Shostakovich or another contemporary composer with lots of notes from C7 on up in a row, then 8va is okay (even from A6 if it jumps around a lot). Of course, that's my opinion, but in almost every case, 8va is unnecessary.
PS. Love the Prokofiev 5!
Speaking as another flutist: I agree that ledger lines are okay for passages that hang out above high A for a while, but it's also true that I usually find such passages rather nasty and would prefer not to be given them in the first place. So the idea that if the notation seems absurd without ledger lines, then maybe the orchestration should be reconsidered still applies!
A pet interest of mine is the treble flute in G. I think it would be perfect for most high C fest type passages. The audition excerpt taken from the finale of Prokofiev's Classical Symphony would become easy, while retaining the degree of projection and the appropriate timbre that piccolo wouldn't.
Alex Kindel
Personally, I love playing up there in intense pieces where there's a good reason to be in the stratosphere (Prokofiev, Shostakovich). But only for a short amount of time. Maybe not in the Classical symphony excerpts or in the 1st movement of his Sonata, but definitely in this (Symphony no. 5) and Alexander Nevsky and in the 4th movement of the sonata, I think Prokofiev is going for the strained sound of the flute's highest notes, and I like that force sometimes. Does the G treble flute sound as difficult up high?
I haven't played a top-notch treble flute, but the one I did try - a Guo brand one - was pretty nearly like taking the sound and response of a C flute and transposing it up a fifth. Paying concert D7 - written G6 - was approximately like playing a concert G6 on a C flute.
Yeah, ledger lines can be pretty annoying. I have this one part, 1st flute on Pathfinder of Panama by Sousa, where literally the entire part has an 8va marking over it, sometimes crossing through dynamics and notes ...
Treble flute in G is also good for playing the really high parts typical of charanga music, especially for a multi-instrumentalist who might only be moderately competent on flute, as might be the case in a pit orchestra.
Although not a common orchestral instrument, saxophones do have an altissimo range and professional players can reasonably be expected to have at least an octave above the standard range on tenor or alto. I'll write such parts as an 8va if it makes sense, and the crossover point is F above (no 8va)/G above (8va, it's altissimo). F♯ is generally not written as 8va as it is generally considered part of the standard range now, even on instruments where it has to be produced as altissimo due to the lack of a high F♯ key.
I personally find it difficult to read more than five leger lines above or four below the staff, regardless of the instrument in question. I've been known to pencil in small note heads an octave up or down to make the part easier to read. But then, I'm not reading straight from the ink to the fingers, because I'm not hyper-specialized to any one instrument. There is a layer of abstraction between the written and the physical, so 8vas don't bother me.
Thank you for another wonderful video Thomas! I do admit, that I am "guilty" of using 8va now and then on 1st and 2nd Violins, Flute, Clarinet, Harp, and Piano. Though I only do this if there is no room on the score for the extra ledger lines, for the Conductor, or the player. Thankfully, I have had no real "complaints" from either so far.....Peace! 🎼❤
Leave it in the score, avoid it in the players' parts unless it's requested.
As a tubist, I would like to call out your part writing tips. I'm tuba performance major in college, I'm an undergrad. I'm pretty good but nothing compared to even bad professionals. I have no trouble playing technical parts written above F1. Lower pedal notes below F1 make great pedal points. There are many examples of super low tuba lines in orchestral music such as fountians of Rome and many Prokofiev symphonies. If doubled with the bass trombone, basses, or bassoon, these parts will be heard.
Excuse me? Where do I say that you can't play technical parts above F1? Or that super low tuba lines are necessarily hard to play? The only point I was making here was that incredibly fast, complex, and intricately articulated scoring wasn't likely to be all that clear in the first place in the lowest register, so why bother using it as a justification for 8vb?There's no need to "call out" anything - you and I can just clarify any particular point, if I've stated things a little sloppily. If we can have a discussion in a charitable way, then everyone can improve from reading it. Otherwise, what's the point, eh?
I’m just glad that you use a different picture for oboe and clarinet.
I would have been even more irritated than you about getting that wrong, my friend. :-)
Same thing here. Altississimo range is very rare in composition before the 60’s, even if in theory the clarinet have another entire octave over the G7.
When should I change clefs? It seems to me like there wouldn't be any one rule, like "past the fourth ledger line" because of parts that go above and below that. What's a general strategy to use to decide when to switch into another clef? I'm sure this might vary depending on the instrument. And when should you split a staff into two staves? I've seen it done with violin parts for some solo caprices, when the notes become a jumbled mess when you squeeze them onto one staff. It usually goes back to normal after the complex bit ends. And just for the sake of principle, what about parts for polyphonic instruments that utilize voices at the top and bottom of the instrument's range simultaneously? For piano, which is always written on two staves, this isn't an issue, but how do you know when it's the right choice to split a part into two staves for an instrument that usually only reads in one? For example, the lute, which has enough strings that it's possible to go far above and below the staff at the same time? Sorry about all these questions!
If you think I'm not the only one wondering this, you have my permission to condense my question for use in a video or in one of your books, if you like. But I have a feeling this isn't a very common issue.
Why not use 8va for Piccolo? The 8va sign above the flute part means to switch to piccolo.
Very interesting; I never would have thought of it that way. Also helpful to understanding how wind & string instruments work. Now, I would like your opinion on this: what should be done about older pieces that already have unnecessary 8vas in their parts? Do you think the parts should be recopied without 8vas, or do you think the players should be expected to just grin and bear it?
The players have been reading those parts for years and are used to their idiosyncrasies. It's more than most orchestras can afford to make completely new parts of every questionable part from every old edition. But one can only put out information like this in hopes that better approaches will be used going forward.
@UCSt_ZRe_mla4tRgYC_GNElQ
You can also tune a Double Bass in Fifths (by using Strings designed for that tuning) & Fifths tuning for Double Bass is the same as a Cello but down an Octave (plus a High E string for the 5 String Bass made by Pirastro as Obligato or Passione). The advantage of 5ths Tuning is that the intonation is much better & it also is great for playing repertoire that was originally not written for Double Bass such as Cello pieces down an Octave, & Violin & Viola pieces down 2 Octaves. There's no Doubt that 5ths Tuning treats the Double Bass like the rest of the string section making it just as equally lyrical.
As a tubist I'd generally agree, although 8vb can occasionally be useful. A good rule of thumb is that you shouldn't use 8vb unless the new written note is still going to be on at least one ledger line, and even still not as a jump in a stepwise line (so really only as say a V-I bass line drop or similar)
One thing I would say as a brass player, is that 8vas can often be useful if you have one or 2 notes that are an octave up from the rest of the passage.
So, in a situation where score space is an issue, would you recommend using 8va in the score but removing it in the parts?
‘Yes.’ answers the competent professional music copyist.
I disagree, though everyone has their OWN motives. As the composer, the CHOICE is mine, not the players. Please read my comment above.
score is for conductor, sometimes 8va may help them to know the actual harmonic relationship
Thanks for the video Thomas. Very helpful!
One question: would 8va still be appropriate for single extremely high (but still fingered, rather than produced by harmonic) notes amidst tenor-clef-register material on viola, or amidst bass-clef-register material on cello/bass/bassoon/horn/trombone?
Hi Misky, do you mean high fingered >>treble
As a violist: we have violinists for a reason. Very high notes are very difficult on viola and can sound terrible. If you're going more than 5 ish ledger lines anove the start in treble clef, it's too high as it is.
I believe the 8va is used in a night in bald mountain for an isolated high harmonic, but the you don't have to shift to reach it. Sounding pitch is shown and the actual note can be played in first position.
Is your Bass Concerto in e minor available to listen online?
Oh, you have word "concert" there. So you're describing the sounding note, not written. That wasn't immediately clear to me. You're OK.
Paul Nahay 😂
Octave Symbols for Double Bass only work on mine cause it's special. Instead of writting Double Bass Concertos, why not take concertos originally written for other instruments and transcribe them for Double Bass. For example using a Fifths tuned 5 String Double Bass (C, G, D, A, E: soudning an Octave Lower for Cello pieces, sounding 2 Octaves lower for Violin and Viola pieces) I could do Paganini's Violin Concerto in D Major w/o having to write a new part cause the fingerings are the same.
About double bass. we dont really use tenor clef anymore, most contemporary stuff uses treble instead.
As an organist, I'd note that 8va bassa signs are never used in organ scores, because the lowest note on the (modern) keyboards (both manual and pedal) is C two ledger lines below bass clef ("cello C") -- and when pitches lower than that are required, these are obtained through the use of octave-lower (or even two octaves lower) registers, the notation always remaining at eritten keyboard pitch, not sounding pitch. As to 8va alta, the highest note on the manuals is C three octaves above middle C. Since this is an octave below the highest octave of the piano, the use of 8va alta signs isn't common. In fact, much of our repertory was written for keyboards that didn't extend so high in range: in JS Bach's day, only two octaves above middle C was the highest note on the manuals -- and even Mendelssohn wrote within this range. Even now, many organ keyboards only go as far as two and a half octaves above middle C. As to the upper end of the pedal keyboard: the highest note is G above middle C, and reading the three ledger lines for this note in bass clef poses no problem for us -- there is never a shift to treble clef, or *shudder!* tenor clef. And again, not all pedalboards go that high: especially in Europe, many only go up to F, or even just D.
Personally as a bassist, I hate tenor clef. I am currently studying a bit of Dragonetti's music, and he never uses it (jumps straight from bass clef to treble clef). I'm not sure about Basittini. How Dragonetti and I do the bass/treble transition is a bit different, however. Dragonetti seems to only use treble clef for the upper harmonics, which means you could get as many as 5 ledger lines in bass clef before switching.
I prefer to switch to treble clef as soon as I enter into thumb position (above the 1st harmonic). This keeps reading up to three ledger lines manageable on the bass end, and only two when playing the first harmonic on the A string in treble clef. In this instance, treble clef is then also a cue for me to switch to thumb position, and when to leave it. If a passage keeps climbing up to a A and back down to a D, reading it in bass clef just looks like you're stretching to reaching the A, then relaxing to come back down to the D. In thumb position, it is just dropping fingers where they should be floating above the strings anyway. An argument could be made for using tenor clef for thumb position and treble clef for the upper harmonics, but I personally really do like treble clef as soon as I enter into thumb position.
I'm a trombonist and I totally agree on your take on orchestral trombone notations. That said... when I see a jazz/big band sheet with 5 and 6 added lines, I want to rip the arengers throat out. And don't use tenorclaff, that feels weird in jazz. For trombone notation in jazz pleas use 8va 4 anything above B1
Amateur clarinettist here. As someone who is just terrible at sight-reading, I would have trouble reading anything above written F6 (or concert pitch Eb6 on a standard Bb clari) - so more than three ledgers. Altissimo notes up to written F6 is relatively common in concert band, but I rarely see anything beyond that outside of solo parts, and I personally prefer transposing via 8va if I ever have to play such notes again.
I have failed you Thomas, I have been mistaking this mistake for a LOOOOONG time. I do have one question though, when you are doing parts this makes sense, but would it be accurate to say that in a full score intended for the conductor or for score study, this would be acceptable since it is not intended for a player but for clarity of score reading?
Yeah, that's fine. I do mention that it's okay to use 8va in the full score to save vertical space - just don't mindlessly import that into the part like that copyist for the Rite of Spring did, haha!
@UCSt_ZRe_mla4tRgYC_GNElQ
In my case my Double Bass Concertos are actually Violin Concertos arranged for the Double Bass. I did that by taking a 5 String Double Bass, & tuned it in Fifths by restringing it with Pirastro Obligato Fifths Tuned Double Bass Strings plus an Obligato High E Solo String. Did you Know Red Mitchell tuned in Fifths? The fun thing about 5ths Tuning for Double Bass is that it allows any Bassist to play repertoire that was originally not written for Double Bass, therefore allowing them to make their own Double Bass Concertos that are really Double Bass transcriptions of Concertos originally written for other instruments.
I've had some bass music with 8va, tenor clef, and treble clef switching multiple times all in a half of a page and just wondered why anyone would do this.
Love your comment at 2:58 , indeed if you are writing complex rhythms and jumping notes in either the fundamental or in the very top register of any brass instrument, I would suggest that you are writing it with a specific musician in mind with whom you have communicated your intent..... otherwise you are just going to get blank stares. Personally, no need to use 8va 8vb markings for low brass.... just write the leger lines, the exception for trombone being if it looks better in tenor clef, and if it's really stratospheric then Alto clef. But , if it looks best in Alto Clef...you probably should have a chat with your local trombonist before you get too excited.
Alto clef doesn't give that much of an advantage over tenor clef, removing exactly one leger line. I wouldn't use it for a tenor or bass trombone, ever. Actually I wouldn't use alto clef for anything but viola or alto trombone, and I'd be wary about using it even on alto trombone. Of course, computer typesetting means it's not that big of a problem to provide the same part written more than one way, if there is any doubt.
I've seen trombone parts use the treble clef, but they were big band charts.
I agree, pointless for Bass bone. But most Alto reading trombonists. do read it for both Tenor and Alto trombones. When and if asked to play the thankfully rare notes above High D , writing it in Alto is not a bad idea, giving the player the option to decide to play it on Alto trombone . Example , Schumann 3.... written in alto clef, likely intended for Alto...but most trombonists will just play it on Tenor.
Alto clef is definitively part of the trombonists expected skills sets for those sitting in the principal chair.
MInd you, as Thomas pointed out....if you need to , you better have a good reason.
I don't know anyone who does more than dabble on alto trombone, they're all tenor trombone players who are doubling. If I knew who would be reading the part, I'd ask what they want. Otherwise I'd provide it in more than one form because it's as simple as changing the clef and printing again.
So if we really want to be "helpful" without interfering with the performer's ability, can you put the number of ledger lines next to the note once it gets to like 6-7, when it's hard to count them in a hurry?
Don't worry about that, flutists read up to high C and D easily, and violinists should be able to read high E's with no problem. When it gets higher than that, you usually should be scoring the note as a touch-4 harmonic anyway, two octaves lower.
The weirdest 8va I’ve seen was on the contrabassoon part to the De meij Lord of the Rings Symphony it was 8va passage ranging from Bb to F in the middle of the staff that could’ve easily been written down an octave.
What about octava bassa for horn? I guess bass clef eliminates that but...
I use for tuba parts bass clef with an 8 below it like the double bass and contrabassoon, is that OK?
No. That's not necessary. Just write it out at pitch, as I explain in the video.
Well actually I do that because I am a pianist and am too lazy to count ledger lines on orchestral scores. I will do the ledger lines eventually on the individual part (without the "8" below the clef.)
As a clarinetist there is almost nothing I dislike more than 8va written in my part.
What about the case when a violinist has to read 6 or 7 ledger lines (or everything more than 5 lines)? Is it acceptable?
Perfectly fine - in fact, I show an example of just that same thing in 11th position.
I think I had never used so high notes in 'tutti' part so far but when I was at the high music school I was taught that the maximum of the extra ledgers allowed is 5 above or 5 below the staf. As a guitarist myself I often prefer the '8va' sign for the electric guitar (I don't use it for classical guitar unless there are harmonics) - maybe because I would play the same thing just 12 frets higher and in this case it's closer to the keyboard/harp/pitched percussion.
As a violinist I prefer 8va mainly in places where the notes are suddenly high and I'm not in position so I dont know where the note is relative to where I already am. But if it's like an ascending scale or arpeggio I wouldnt use it unless it was like 7 or more ledger lines beacause I know what position I'm in and can see the relative distances between the notes so I know where to shift
As a bassist I wouldn’t find 8va annoying. My understanding of notes is rooted from when I first started on bass guitar. Typically I can use finger shapes on bass to understand 8va parts, again another remnant from playing bass guitar.
I know saxophones aren't orchestral, but as a baritone saxophonist I'm perfectly fine with 8va and 8ba. Saxophone range isn't large enough for it to really be used all that often, but saxophonists who have always played saxophone will actually have a little trouble reading ledgers above E above the staff. We'd much prefer 8va for reading in altissimo range - two Gs over the staff and upwards.
Ethan Ray - Protagon VII They should be, but they're not for historical reasons, like every other instrument manufacturer demanding none of Adolphe Sax's creations to be used and musicians threatening to walk away from performances of it did.
I feel like 15ma is better than 8va. Sometimes ledger lines can be confusing. I'm really bad at sight reading because I mix up the lines (I'll read a d as a b, or a c as an a) even on the 5-line staff. So that only gets magnified for me when adding more ledger lines. This can easily be fixed by increasing the font size, but publishers often make things annoyingly small. Which, albeit, is sometimes preferable, like when you're decreasing the number of pages. But anyways, the problem I see with 8va is it switches the lines and spaces. The way music is written, a note an octave higher than a note on a line will be on a space. But two octaves higher... Well, it will still be on a line or space the same as the note two octaves lower. Ultimately, though, each player has different preferences. Given, usually people who play the same instrument have similar preferences, but not always. With modern notation software, it's not very hard to make several versions of something, so you can make several different versions of something and it won't cost much more at all. So when I start releasing stuff, I'll have a few versions. I'm a guitarist. And I also play violin. But with guitar, well, not much is written for guitar. Usually only guitarists write for guitar. So often you have to choose between re-arranging a piece yourself into a format you're familiar with, or learn to read music written for other instruments. So with guitar being written an octave higher than the sounding pitch, you sometimes forget to remember that when you're reading treble clef, like on a piano or violin part. And with wind instruments that transpose... whew, it's even tougher for them. So I personally see no valid reason for transposing, and I think it hinders expanding your repertoire to encompass a wider variety of pieces, not necessarily written for your instrument. Not only does it make it hard for transposing musicians to read music at pitch, but it also makes it hard for concert pitched instruments to read the transposed music. Anyways, I think it's good to be able to read in every clef (within the range of your instrument, at least) and so I'll always prefer a clef change over an 8va. But with very high or low pitched instruments, there isn't really a clef that you can switch to, so you have to write an 8va or just automatically play it an octave lower like with a double bass. Eh. You're the orchestrator though, with much more experience than I, so if anything I said is not the best idea I'll always listen to people who know more than me.
I have just started an orchestration unit at uni and god damn you guys love rules
It's not about "rules" as much as it's about things that don't waste time during rehearsal. To a pro orchestrator, every time a musician raises their hand and asks what something means in your score, it means that much less time people will be actually playing. As to "you guys," since you're taking a course now that means you're now one of us, so welcome to the club! ;-)
Wow, you even have rules as to what should be called a rule;)
I understand why it's done - it's a necessity in a style of music that is so rigid and formalised.
i'm only doing this unit because the description was innaccurate and I can't be bothered changing it now lol. Don't want to be a part of this club thanks, way too many rules for me :)
Too late. :D
Is that a rule too?
One tiny bit of involvement and you're in for life? ;)
Sorry, that's the law! :P Self-enforcing, as you will soon find after you orchestrate something and then get addicted to it!
For the clarinet, unless I'm mistaken, in the altissimo register, the high f is closer to the fingerings of a C# or Db than a D. The D fingerings goes more with the high F#. Sorry, just thought I'd throw that out there.
I'll let you duke it out with the Piston Orchestration book that I got the overblowing scheme from. :D
I do say right there on the screen that the example given is written pitches. It doesn't matter which model. That is all beside the point. The point is that some composers are seeing 8va in some clarinet scoring and thinking that is permission to default to it whenever they write high. Most really good players I know go up to a written C on either an A or a Bb - and I'm seeing 8va crop up in parts more and more, not just to save vertical space in a score. As to overblowing partials, once again - the ones in the diagram are from Piston's Orchestration. That's what his staff wrote. I appreciate the perspective of other players, but in this case what the viewer needs to see is what I'm showing them that altissimo pitches have a completely different fingering scheme - hence the need to not take 8va for granted.
Sorry, I realise now that you were responding to Trey. Please ignore my ranty response! :D
HAHA! You really cracked me and DW up as we read your awesome new phrase, "octavi-out-of-their-minds"! :D Thanks so much for the keen perspective and for the ups about my bass concerto. I'd love to record it professionally someday with some young, brilliant players.
Sorry, I was meaning the transposing pitch, in order to make it relevant for clarinets similar to the Bb (not sure if there are some different fingerings for the bass clarinet on those higher notes.) I was more addressing that, at least when I play the clarinet, as I play F6 (transposed), I use similar fingers to that of C#4 (not transposed), not so much as to D4, as the video was suggesting at 7:33. It was an insignificant comment, as it doesn't have to really do at all with the video itself.
please add subtitles to the video !
100 More Orchestration tips? Sounds like time to save up some more money. :)
Prokofiev 5th ! Great !
Athyr Formation I feel weird that I just played that in October, and yet here it is. It’s like when I played the Dvorak cello concerto, and then heard it on the radio a week later, and the same happened with Brahms 3 this summer
You can use an 8va for bassoon music, it’s just as hard as tenor clef
Don't, though. Just don't. Any competent semipro-to-pro bassoonist should be able to easily read the vast majority of literature for tenor clef, while they will roll their eyes and possibly even complain loudly if you score 8va over a bass staff. Bassoonists can read treble clef if it really comes to that, probably much easier than 8va.
So, even violin concertos going up to the highest A on the piano (8 leger lines) wouldn't be ridiculous to read?
Well, that's a completely different context. A concerto solo part will be studied and memorised by the soloist like an actor's part in a movie or play. A part for a regular section member will rarely go that high, and if it does it usually will be artificial harmonics that are scored down 2 octaves anyway.
Yeah as a violinist I rarely see 8va in solo parts except for rediculously high passages, but in orchestral music I actually prefer 8va but only past like 5 or 6 ledger lines otherwise it's pretty annoying to read
Flutist here... it's totally cool if you use 8va in my parts. The damn instrument should've been written an octave lower in the first place - you're never gonna hear the lowest octave over the orchestra anyways. It would be cool if notation was redesigned to be ergonomic, rather than designed for frickin Rain Man.
In the sense that the fundamental tones of the flute are played from Middle C up to C# in the staff, though, the treble range fits the flute pretty well. If you're fine with 8va, then great! Most concert flutists I've worked with would roll their eyes and ask me to reformat their parts if I gave them 8va in most situations. If there was a very complex, picky rhythm applied to a series of intricate notes between B6 and D7, then they might make an exception - or not. Keep in mind that a lot of my tips are "druthers." What would almost every flutist and violinist in my professional experience as an orchestrator prefer? No 8va.
As a bass trombonist, we occasionally see 8vb and I personally would rather read ledger lines that transpose, if anything just to mentally prepare my embouchure.
I thought the "8v" in 8va was an abbreviation of "octave", and the A stood for "above" ("octave above"). Replace the A with a B for "octave below".
No, that's incorrect. "Otta" (eight, 8) + "va," = ottava or 8va. 8ba = ottabassa.