Orchestration Tip: Trombone Roles & Relationships
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 มิ.ย. 2024
- James Horner's score to ALIENS
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As a trombonist, I can confirm that a "crisp" attack is something I can do very aggressively. Encourage us!
Hello! May I ask you a question? For the crisp attack, do you need a text or with fff is enough?
@@felipemorenomusic fff is not articulation, it is dynamics. Or thought of in a different perspective, the very front of a note can be loud and harsh without the sustained portion being so. It's not necessarily the same as fp either, because the forte-piano marking implies that the forte lasts at least a little bit into the "body" of the note before dropping off. I think it's best for clarity to pick the best adjective or verb and write it out (in English or whatever your preferred language is) as indicating to be applied to a specific kind of marcato-like marking or phrase.
@@felipemorenomusic A pretty common verb I'm thinking of is "ping".
Another awesome resource!! Your videos are so clear and informative for orchestrators/writers at any level, thank you for making these!!
8 Bit Big Band? You're here too?
As a trombonist, I endorse this video.
The highest praise I can imagine. Thanks.
As a trombonist, I appreciate you taking the time to remind us (me) about the various methods we can employ to make the trombones sing, carry and support, sometimes in the same phrase! Thanks so much for sharing. You're truly an inspiring composer and resource for all of us. Many, many thanks once again!!
"The trombone is, in my view, the real leader among the class of wind instruments I have described as epic. It possesses to the highest degree nobility and grandeur. It commands all the accents, grave or powerful, of high musical poetry, from imposing and calm religious tones to the frenzied clamour of an orgy. The composer may at will make it sing a chorus of priests, threaten, utter a subdued lament, whisper a funeral dirge, raise a hymn of glory, break out in dreadful cries, or sound its formidable call for the awakening of the dead or the death of the living." - Hector Berlioz, "Treatise on Instrumentation"
I recall the very first thing I was taught about trombone writing, which was that they're not very agile, especially in low ranges. When I finally got an idea as to how the slide positions and various attachments work, I began to realize the first thing I learned was so pessimistic and foreboding. Yes, less agile, but oh so colorful, intense, and timbrally interesting. I found my trombonists for my own live premiere were the most laid back, awesome players to work with. I wish more teachers provided the depth of information and accessible, interesting, memorable format that you do!! THANK YOU!
@Laura JH Ball
Ya-
-Like--No Bb-3 to B♮-3 trills (7th position to 1st position) please.
@@michaeldunagan8268 Thank heavens for the "F" attachment in some cases.
But as a bass trombonist myself do not shy away from fast passages. We practice scales, arpeggios and such like. We can do a lot, including sliding across massive ranges.
@@MePeterNicholls You have deeply encouraged me here. Thank you.
Bartok's use of the trombone, especially in the miraculous mandarin is incredibly amazing and unique. He makes them sound so gritty and frightening.
I just LOVE the examples from Mahler's 2nd Finale!! They have always been one of my favorite parts in all of Mahler's works!! And extra thanks for using the final pages of the work to close off your excellent video!!
I love the trombone... maybe a bit biased since I’ve played it for 30 years. This video has helped me expand my mindset when scoring for this awesome instrument..
I'm honoured. Great to hear that the video's helpful to you.
As a high school trombonist. This was very well explained
been playing trombone for 10 years (I play an f attachment trombone)
I love playing with the French horns as composers like mahler and wagner and bruckner were amazing at writing for trombone and brass in general
Love from Sweden
I am stunned by how wonderful these videos are. There is really something for everyone to learn here (or hear it explained clearly).
Please do viola roles and relationships next. I think a lot of people get stuck on what to do with the violas.
As a violinist trying to figure out what the actual crap is going on with band, I thank you for this video.
I was waiting for examples with glissandi. But even without them, still lots of inspiring moments. Thanks a lot for your hard work!
Trombonists as a general rule hate glissandi! Itès a beautiful instrument with far more tricks in its bag than sliding all over the place like a clown. Grrrr
Trombone glissandi doesn’t sound like a clown though
@@divisix024 As a Pro Trombonist...All I can say is..."we'll have to agree to disagree".
@@NeilABliss I don't think that's how the composers function though. It's more like: "So, that thing slides, eh? How far can it slide? Slide it for me, babe! Faster! That's the sweet spot!" - at least that's probably how Gershwin wrote his Rhapsody in Blue...
@@alexkha Concur, except for the asking how far they can go part....they never ask and typically mess it up.....I've been asked for a clean 2 octave gliss......which is of course impossible, and then had to deal with a whiny composer after that. As a rule I tell young composition students to avoid glissandi.... except as scoops and falls of no more than a tone and for a Jazz effect, not the clown effect, the days of Tailgate trombone is long over , I'll still do it in a Dixie context...but then I choice where to put them.
You had me at Mahler 2. ;-)
Great point, Mr. Thomas ! Too much of film scores studying may lead an aspiring orchestrator to "box" trombones into certain cliche work :-) Of course, when you throw Mahler, Ravel, Prokofiev etc. into studies, all of a sudden you've got great examples of broadening usage of brass section in general (not only for certain "action cues"!) BTW : looking forward to in-depth analysis of Aliens...
Williams’ mix of Horns and Trombones in the score for Saving Private Ryan is also a good film score to study uses of the trombones.
This is the first time I've seen a video that actually gives you a fundamental understanding of the role of a trombone in various orchestral genre, with examples. I've been on so many forums where I've asked about orchestration and the roles of instruments and all I ever get is useless advice like "you can do anything you want" and "as long as it sounds good". Subscribed.
Love the way you edited that ending together, a wonderful video
This was super informative. And I love the inclusion of Mahler’s 2nd, one of my favorites :)
Fantastic and very useful tips as always! Thanks Thomas.
Outstanding! Clear and well produced. Thank you.
This channel is absolutely incredible. As a self taught musician this has helped me so much in my career!
I'm glad the trombone picked me as a kid.
You uploaded this video just in time for me(not that I would complain if you uploaded it earlier or later, just saying) because I improvised on the piano today music that follows the plan for a piece that I have wanted to compose since 2018, almost 4 years ago. I first had a severe case of "Orchestra Anxiety" with this piece, so severe that I couldn't even do a piano duet score of it, nor improvise themes for it on solo piano, it just seemed too daunting. And so, I did some planning. And that's what I've done for the past 4 years, planning this piece. I have so much planning behind it that I basically know what I want the piece to be like and just have to execute it.
It's my first symphony. I had the idea of this symphony in 2018, have been planning it over the years as I gradually got to where I am today, very comfortable with orchestral writing and knowing that I am nearing the point of symphonies and concertos. And guess what, my first symphony does use trombones, more so than my previous orchestral works have(except maybe the suite that I have been composing on and off for the past year).
I'm thinking that this improvising music that follows my symphony plan might be a sign that I'm ready to compose this symphony, and not just plan on what to do for it. Especially considering how long I have wanted to compose this symphony and how comfortable I am with the orchestra these days.
All that you presented is true. All l would add is that trombones can also play very softly, very lyrically, etc. We are more known for the big moments, but some of the best trombone writing in the repertoire is very intimate.
Maestro this was awesome! you are a very unique teacher where skill composing and orchestating goes hand by hand with the ability to explain it and ilustrate it. I just love every bit of your videos. Thank you so much for your work!
One of my last performances before covid was singing bottom bass in the last movement of Mahler 2 with the Chicago Sinfonietta in January 2020, and as a result I still have panicked flashbacks when hearing any of the orchestral music that precedes a choral entrance haha. Mahler is not particularly kind to the singers in that piece, especially the high sopranos and low basses.
Slightly traumatic experiences aside, informative video as always.
Thank you for all of your amazing videos!
Love your channel!
Good to see you post again
Thank you, that was just the right amount of information with lots of great examples. Studying scores can be a bit bewildering, so it's really useful to have some focused pointers
Great lesson.
Great video. Thank for all this amazing content in your channel, it's so educational
THANK YOU! Really needed to learn these things, great video
Thank you so much this is exactly what ive been looking for :)
Great video, and as usual, a helpful resource for all of us. Thank you Thomas. Grettings from Chile..!!
Terrific presentation on a very good topic. The excerpt from your piece sounds terrific! Really fine writing. Thanks!
Thank you. Another terrific lesson.
Thank you so much for this. These ideos are gold!
Excellent brass videos
For Trombones used to scintillating/spectacular height one need not go to the late 19th Century. Beethoven used trombones to brilliant soft effect in the Benedictus of the Missa Solemnis. One of my favorite anecdotes (one I kinda believe) is the ______(unnamed here) conductor who just assumed Beethoven was too deaf "to understand music" and just crossed out those trombone parts.[Shaning my head in sorrow for the poor soul.]
This is an informative and extremely polished presentation about the role of the trombone in orchestration. Bravo.
Thanks! I've always had a hard time writing for trombones. Thanks for the tips!
Wow! Thank you! Super great!
Thanks ever so much Thomas!
My pleasure, Michele!
Thank you so much for the video! You could not make it so that there are subtitles. Very convenient for translation.
I play tuba, and I love this video! I hope to be in an orchestra after college.
I love this channel
Just ordered James Horner's Aliens score as a Christmas present to myself.
Good video! I stumbled onto your channel this evening and listened/watched several of your videos. I arranged for concert/symphonic band as well as wind ensembles. I also arranged for trombone ensemble (yes, I'm a trombonist). I only have one composition to my name and that was a piece for a symphonic band. I arranged mostly for my own groups (I was a public school band director) and for a few friends. Never sought to publish. But enough about me.
Your videos would be a great study for anyone seeking to get into doing arrangements. Lots of good stuff in them that is quite valid and applicable to arranging. If I was still in the business (I retired 12 years ago), I would recommend them. Nevertheless, I'm sure you are helping many. Keep up the great work!
Thank you for this interesting video. From the point of view of playing the instrument or instruments, a problem with the trombone is managing it physically. I have an alto and a tenor and I play the alto more often, because I find it difficult to deal with the weight of the tenor. The alto is no problem. I love the sound of the bass trombone, but I'm not sure I could manage one. I find that the alto trombone fills up the gap in the range between the tenor trombone and the Bb trumpet nicely. The same applies to the alto horn, which I also like to play very much, but which, along with the other members of the saxhorn family, are rare visitors to the symphony orchestra.
I have a minor quibble in that the word "trombone" literally means "big trumpet", and the bore has more-or-less the same proportions as a trumpet bore. That is, it tends more toward the cylindrical than the conical and has a "sharper" more focussed sound than instruments whose bores tend more to the conical. I have a tenor and a baritone horn, both in Bb, which I bought partially because of my difficulties holding the tenor trombone. I like them both in their own right, but it turned out that neither is a substitute for a tenor trombone; the timbres are completely different, i.e., more diffuse than a trombone but not as much as a French horn.
I tend to avoid long glissandi, because I find it's an overused effect (or, in other words, I think it most often sounds corny), but I do like to be able to use the possibilities of the slide, e.g., for ornaments. I suppose there must be technical reasons why as a rule trumpets have valves and trombones have slides (and the valve trombone is relatively rarely used).
Glad to hear people still care about us 😅
Can't wait for the Bishop's Countdown analysis!
I believe the name "trombone" actually translates as "big trumpet." I've also noticed that historically composers have used trombone sections to characterize both death and the voice of God (or other important or powerful figure.)
Yes, that was the purpose of my note in the video - I show the Italian derivation. As to its symbolic or dramatic uses, that is all the same to me - so long as I can teach the interactions and relationships.
A big part of the historical use of the trombone to represent divinity or otherworldliness comes from the fact that it was used primarily as a religious instrument throughout Europe for centuries before it was introduced to the late-Classical and then Romantic era orchestras.
The bass trombone gives teeth to the tuba's sound.
Great insight. And oh Mahler... just oh!:))))
Oooooo! (I make always make that sound in my head when I see you have made another video like this!)
8:43 - You really need to consider making music for a videogame - litterally this composition screams RPG forest area or something...
Hi Mr. Thomas! Could you please tell me, which recordings did you use for the Mahler-examples? I really loved them.
Thank you! :)
When I think of the Bone, I too think of Mahler, but also - and maybe moreso - Bruckner's 5th. Both the splendid brass chorale that appears midway into the finale and then that absolutely dazzling (if utterly bizarre) Coda that concludes the work. Some conductors try to smooth out the transition; I dislike that approach. Jochum had extra bone-players on hand just to address the problem of player fatigue while he let them ferociously take over.
BIG TRUMPET
reminds me of bruckner and mahler... and also wagner :D
Do you recommend scoring for two tenor and a bass trombone or alto tenor bass? I'd think it'd be prudent to score so you can handle both, possibly, right?
"Trombone" is not just a big trumpet! "Trombone" is a sir while Tromba is a lady ahah
What recording of Mahler’s Second Symphony was used in the making of this video?
My question, after enlightening instruction, is: in smaller orchestras, considering range is complimentary, why choose horn over trombone for a melodic and antenna solo?
Uniqueness of timbre within given registers.
@@OrchestrationOnline I think that because of that reason composers choose a bit to much for the horns. Because if the notes aren't to high or to low, it's often quite difficult to hear the difference between horns and trombones, so a lot of melodies that are given to horns could be played as well on a trombone
That mars performance at 9:29 is just outrageously fast lmao
But about the same tempo as Holst's own recording. th-cam.com/video/lsBdREh9UEw/w-d-xo.html
@@OrchestrationOnline Wow, very interesting. But I suppose another example where I prefer many conductors' interpretation to the composer. I have the same with Stravinsky, I much prefer Bernstein's recordings to his own.
@@tiekoe Who's to say what's right? Just interesting to know that tempos vary even with the composer. The album tempos of a lot of classic jazz pieces like Brubeck's Take 5 and Horace Silver's Song For My Father have a nice feel to them, but just listen to them live after a few years by those artists and you'll see they're quite a bit faster. The same thing can happen with concert composers performing and conducting their own works.
Tom, have you written/spoken about the cimbasso? Any opera orchestra needs one. And look up Verdi's comments on what he thought of the tuba for some real venom.
Hi Douglas! Please call me Thomas. 🙂 Great minds think alike. I'm already working on a chapter for my 3rd Orchestration Tips book about cimbasso, and I'm also booking in a player to demonstrate for my upcoming brass section course.
So may I ask how did the earlier classical composers, from a period of Mozart to Brahms, use the trombone in their works?
They didn't really. They weren't built very well yet.
Didn’t Mozart use trombone in at least his later operas and masses? e.g. Requiem in D minor (the parts he penned), Magic Flute
Trombones are older than Mozart and even Bach. Mozart’s neighbor was a trombone player and Mozart frequently used the instrument in frightening moments in his opera. The trombone was primarily a church instrument in the German tradition and would be typically used to double choir parts.
Brahms used the trombones mostly for nice chorales. The 4 symphonies and especially the German Requiem are full of them. The trombone may be known for being loud (and it is certainly amazing at that), but in my opinion soft chorales are where the instrument really shines. And that's how it was mostly used in sacred music during the Renaissance after its invention - beautiful chorales either alone, or more often doubling the choir parts.
Mozart generally used the alto, tenor, and bass trombones to accompany singers, check out the masses specifically his Requiem. Beethoven often used the trombones almost as an extension of the trumpets, but also frequently had them doubling voices. With Schubert, the trombone was getting melody lines in the 9th symphony. Schumann and Brahms wrote chorales for the section in some of their symphonies, check out Schumann 3 and Brahms 4.
Are we not gonna talk about the bionicle spaghetti monster in the background?
♥♥♥♥
My gut instinct for the trombone, leans heavily toward the use of slides, mainly because it's one of the few instruments that can really do that, and the only widely deployed brass instrument that can do it well. (The bowed string section can of course do slides as well, but it's the whole section, so it doesn't stand out as a unique feature of those instruments.) Electric guitars can do a related thing (sliding into or out of a note by moving the string out of place to change its length), but it doesn't go as far, and a lot of orchestras don't have electric guitars in any case.
Of course I know that competently-played trombones can also just hit the notes directly. But somewhere in my brain there's a little voice going "but if I wanted that, I could use *any* brass instrument."
I'd say to watch out for that little voice, because it may be leading you wrong. What makes trombone most useful and unique from the point of this pro orchestrator is its strength and character of timbre - and also the qualities and proportions of its registers. Slides are just an added goodie. Could *any* brass instruments state the examples in this video with the same power and timbre? Perhaps in some cases, Wagner tubas could substitute here and there - but those are fairly rare compared to the ubiquitous t-bone. Don't worry that some other brass instruments have a similar range, and focus on the unique timbral qualities of the instrument's registers, and it's hard to go wrong.
@@OrchestrationOnline And while we are talking about intonation, wagner tubas can be very problematic in that sense.
Who played at Beethoven's funeral? A trombone quartet.
MAHLER 2
I'm a bit disappointed by the lack of the mention of the most obvious use of the trombone... so obvious that it's overlooked... The glissando... Well not common, glissandos can have such a beautiful effect on music... also a very intense effect... underused but incredible potent..
Don't be disappointed. This video is about roles and relationships, not techniques. To the extent that trombone glissando plays a role in the orchestra, it pretty much stands alone.
@@OrchestrationOnline I guess that makes sense. As a trombonist I actually really like this video. I
This video reminds me of a joke: how do you make a French horn sound like a trombone? Overblow everything and take your hand out the bell so you’re pitchy! And it’s inverse: How do you make a trombone sound like a French horn? Put your hand in the bell and miss the correct partials.
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