Orchestration Tip: C trumpet vs. Bb Trumpet
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ก.ย. 2024
- Complete Score Analysis of Carmina Burana's Were Diu Werlt Alle Min: • Carmina Burana X: Were...
100 Orchestration Tips: orchestrationo...
100 MORE Orchestration Tips: orchestrationo...
For the most up-to-date orchestration analysis and additional resources and perspectives, please join me on Patreon.
/ orchestrationonline
Visit the official Orchestration Online website and subscribe to our newsletter. orchestrationon...
Join the orchestration online community by subscribing to this channel, checking in on Twitter @OrchestrationOL, and being part of the conversation on Facebook. / 278568792265515
2:00 is exactly right! Bb is warm and forgiving, C is bright and more tiring. But very much worth the timbre!
6:53 Mahler 5 is a famous excerpt and almost everybody I can think of auditions and performs it on C. You make a great point that a C lead over a Bb section has a great sound!!
Thanks so much for backing me up. That was a perspective not every player shared, but enough had when I wrote the original tip that I felt it important to preserve.
Some interesting bits. Ravel's piano concerto excerpt is quite often played on D trumpet to make it easier to make it through those fast bits, and sometimes, (like on the Jurassic park score) the lead player would play exclusively play on Eb, but thats more of a player's personal choice anyways!
Thanks for all of the resources on your channel
You're very welcome! I do mention that the Ravel is played on D in an onscreen note, you might have missed it. Great to hear from you, thanks so much for commenting.
@@OrchestrationOnlineah yes I did miss it on the first pass! You couldn't be more correct about the large chance that players will just do whatever they please as well.
@@jamesgaudi372 Haha, the trumpet player just picks whatever axe, and usually the composer doesn't even notice it - or wouldn't know how to recognise the difference in the first place. Or knows better than to complain about it if they come from a brass background. But for everyone in the middle, I made this video so they know not to worry about it. 🙂
As a trumpet player and an amateur composer myself, I have to admit that this video is a wonderful piece of education! Quite splendid!
Anyway, do you have a tip on flugelhorns? I played one myself and I fell in love with it completely.
Anyway, thank you so much for this video ❤.
It's a fantastic suggestion, and I'll try to follow up in my next book. There's so much to say about that.
Excellent video. Not a topic I've seen discussed a lot, despite being crucial for orchestrators. (In the sense that it's a choice people should go through)
I already understood it somewhat because I'm a brass players, but I'm sure these things aren't intuitive for non-brass players.
Indeed. At the very least, if an orchestrator and/or composer starts working with the same orchestra or roster of players, they should at least know why those players are making the different instrument choices, and learn to make the most out of those choices. Down here in New Zealand, players just play whatever axe is asked for - but I am seeing a drift toward the C as a default instrument.
I honestly think you may be exaggerating the differences between the two somewhat - especially when taking mouthpiece choices into account.
And indeed I do mention that mouthpieces may be used to ameliorate the difference in the onscreen note. You may have missed it.
Great video! A few thoughts on US practice: in school orchestras and amateur orchestras, you sometimes see C trumpets but not very often. Rich kids might have them, and wealthy schools might own a set. With college orchestras where there's a strong classical performance program, you'll have all the trumpets and then some, but if it's not a noted classical music program you are way more likely to see Bbs exclusively. If I am writing for a particular orchestra, regardless of level or type, I try to ask the director about what trumpets the players have and which are they best on, among a lot of other questions about the group. I prefer writing for people, for the musicians, rather than generically for instruments and parts. As impractical that is at times, I like to get as close to it as I can. I think I write better when I know the player who will play it.
Thank you so much! Great lection!
Mu pleasure Dmitry!
@@OrchestrationOnline ❤️
My experience is that classical trumpeters strongly gravitate towards their C trumpets, as their basic "usin' horn" with old-shoe comfort. I once wrote a part for Bb trumpet because I wanted to use one of its lowest notes, only for the player to use his C trumpet and leave out that low note! Or there was the time I wrote an Eb trumpet part, thinking the tessitura would be easier, only for the player to tell me that he'd rather play it on his C trumpet and just transpose! As you say, professional classical trumpeters are so used to transposing, and I find that they always prefer to use their C trumpet as their home base for such.
Then for higher parts, the piccolo trumpet is their other preferred instrument. It's now to the point where, instead of playing D trumpet parts on a D trumpet, they will use the piccolo and just transpose. In fact, when I wanted to write a part specifically for piccolo trumpet and asked the player if he wanted it transposed for it crooked in A or in Bb, he said to give him a D trumpet part, as playing the piccolo transposed that way was what he was most used to. From what I've seen, whether it's Handel's _Messiah_ or Stravinsky's _Rite of Spring_, they'll use the piccolo trumpet instead of the D trumpet indicated in the score.
Brass players have a need for security that goes beyond what many other instrumentalists desire. The feel and response of the more familiar instrument will always prevail for them, as well as facilitation in reaching higher notes without cracking -- thus the piccolo trumpet, or the higher pitches possible through the alternate tubings of the triple French horn.
As i have recently heared, the B-flat rotary trumpets sound more beautiful and that's why they are standard here in Germany. The C valve piston Trumpet is supposed to sound too sharp(coulor not pitch) and is aparently more used oversea. Do you know more? I invite to share your insights.
PS: thank you for your very informative and helpful Videos :-)
What about trumpet in F? I've seen it in a lot of scores even after natural trumpets were obsolete.
He really looked at Trumpet Herald for discussion by trumpet players... What a Guy.
Not in the slightest. Maybe you should ask me if I did that before claiming it. What you're seeing in this video is the result of working with concert players over three decades, and writing down their thoughts and pet peeves. Then when it came time to make a video from the chapter in my book (which was released four years ago), I triple-checked the information with professional trumpet players, who are listed at the beginning of the video. I'm not sure if what you're saying is supposed to be a compliment - but it's entirely untrue.
Ohhhh trumpets. I have lots of opinions on this topic….
My personal favorite approach to different keys of trumpet is that of Mahler. I personally find a relatively minimal difference between in timbre between Bb and C trumpets. This seems to be agreed upon by Mahler, who throughout his works only scored for Bb and F trumpet. F trumpet being pitched a perfect 5th above a standard Bb trumpet. This maximises the contrast between different types of trumpets. This approach is pne that I favor, and the only time I would say that at least the first trumpet player would likely dp their best to respect the composers wishes. I would also recommend scoring for Eb trumpet insted of the F that Mahler uses, since I have never seen a modern F trumpet, and Ebs are significanly more common. Hopefully this was helpful to someone.
I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts, thanks!
It's misleading to say the F trumpet was pitched a perfect 5th about the standard Bb trumpet. This is how it's notated, but it was actually longer than the modern trumpet, hence having a lower harmonic series. When you see a C5 (octave above middle C) in a modern trumpet part, this is the 4th partial, but it's the 8th partial on an old F trumpet part, as is the case with natural trumpet parts and all horn parts. The modern Eb trumpet is smaller than the Bb, so substituting the large, low F trumpet with the small, high Eb trumpet wouldn't be following Mahler's intentions at all.
Counterintuitively, the traditional Eb/E/F trumpets were pitched lower than the A/Bb/C trumpets. As with the horn, low written C means the 4th not the 2nd partial. This is confirmed by 'impossible' low notes such as in the Eb trumpets in Heldenleben, or the F trumpets in Enigma.
So for example a high concert C on an F trumpet would be a 12th partial on quite a long and possibly wider bore instrument than you might expect. I've no idea what difference in colour composers expected, but I don't think anybody pays any notice these days.
@@alastairwheeler8117 If I can source one here in New Zealand, I plan to do a video and a written tip about the difference, why the instruments had such a strong following, and how they fell out of favour. But I'd also need a specialist player - so I might have to go to Central Europe for that.
@@OrchestrationOnline I'm really interested to hear the F trumpet. I don't know if I ever have.
What about trumpet/organ voluntarily, like Purcell, Stanley,"etc.?
Is the rest of the evaluations for the beethoven challenge coming soon?
16 seconds ago let's go
THOMAS!
ENRIQUE!