I'm seeing a lot of people in the comments say things along the lines of, "It's because of 06." or, "Ever since Colors..." But, as I said in the video, this problem has been around for much longer than either of those. This really started with Heroes. Please do not employ selective memory to make this about the same complaints everyone has been talking about forever. This is a separate issue. Sonic's problems do not start with ST's reaction to 06. There have been many issues thought the entirety of the series. Let's not pretend nothing was wrong before 2010.
You are contradicting yourself. The only titles between SA2 and '06 are Heroes and Shadow, which you admit give arcs to Metal Sonic and Shadow in your video. Sonic Unleashed/Colors are the games where SEGA/ST started down the path of treating Sonic as a frozen in time brand rather than a populated world with characters and stakes. We will never stop paying the price for the travesty that was Sonic '06.
@@armoredplacoderm Uh... what? Between SA2 and 06 there's Battle, Rush, Riders and Rivals. All of which, including the main console games, squander the characters. Yes, some characters get arcs and development. But most of the cast are just there being static in all of those games.
@@Pariah6950 Rush never had audio dialogue and introduced new characters that they had to develop, Riders introduced 3 new characters and had to focus on their development, Battle is literally SA2 and does not count as a new game, and does anyone even remember Rivals?
It infuriates me that the Sonic series has so many genuinely awesome character designs with cool stories of their own, yet they're barely ever used. They just stand there in cutscenes being caricatures of themselves now.
Somehow I don't think IDW was really helping them that much. They felt more like generic super heroes rather than actual characters in my opinion. And the writing even felt iffy and weird to me. It looks kinda anime-ish but doesn't really feel anime-ish. And the way sonic, blaze, knuckles, shadow and silver were handled in these comics 😕🙁☹😓.. not a fan of it. They keep trying to give sonic development, which doesn't work. Blaze fights like a generic fire bender and she doesn't use her fiery spinning top elements from the games. Knuckles does not look that strong at all. I'm not gonna talk about shadow but I heard that he'll be written better so good for him. *sigh* I can't stand seeing my boy silver getting unreasonably nerfed and his PK done dirty in art style. I mean atleast his getting some recognition and it's nice to see his super form return. But idk. I'm not a big fan of the idw comics. At all.
i 100% agree with this sentiment, there is literally so much story potential with these characters, one of which i really think has a lot of potential is oddly enough rouge In a lot of games and stories rouge is seen to have an obsession with jewelry and gems and such, ive always had this potential plot line in my head where rouge somehow finds that there’s more to life than just the materialistic objects such as jewels, and that could even open up more character moments with her and other characters like the rest of team dark or even knuckles it’s ideas like these that really want me to write my own interpretation of the sonic games or certain game events
Exactly. It's so easy. Have a story where she somehow solicits Knuckles into helping her with a big heist. But things go wrong and Knuckles gets in trouble. And she has to choose between the treasure or saving Knuckles. And she goes to save him after some nice character interactions along their adventure. Then finish with a heart to heart where Knuckles is surprised she came for him and she kisses him on the cheek. Boom. Easy peasy, and it would be great. But no. We don't get that. It's infuriating.
@@Pariah6950 that idea is literally golden, that honestly feels like something we could or could’ve gotten in the comics, whether it be archie or idw (less likely idw tbh lol) i honestly believe that after the archie comics were cancelled, the whole fiasco with ken penders and sonic chronicles, and 06, sega has been afraid to give these characters any real growth or be actual well written characters little stories like that should be common place in a series like sonic, but only time will tell if stories like frontiers are moving in that direction
I too have felt a desire to write my own stories even before I took on my first big writing project (that one is related to Kingdom Hearts). Maybe once I finish that, I can tinker with that story I had in store for Silver to try and get him out of that "Temporal Loop"
Sega also needs proper management and know the characters well enough to make good stories that stays faithful to them and maybe not ruin anything else. Like silver and blaze for example 😤 I know blaze well enough to know that her relationship with silver just doesn't work. We've seen what blaze was like in 06. That gets reference when ever blaze was with silver and other games. Blaze hopping between her world and sonic's with out both the sol & chaos emeralds needing to have some sort of special connection, making the rush games seem weak and pointless. (Likely because Sega stopped caring about these characters since unleashed) Then there's IDW where blaze now fights like a generic fire user by using the flamethrower move instead of using the close range ones from the games. Is she still have that spinning top elements with her like in the games? Is she even considerate a fast character in those comics? Atleast in archie she was, but what about idw? AND WHAT THE RINGS DID IDW DO TO SILVER? WHY DOES HE TAKE TOO MUCH EFFORT ON USING HIS POWERS? WHY DOES THE ART OF HIS PSYCHOKINESIS LOOK BAD IN THIS COMICS? AGHH!! WHY DOES HIS FACIAL EXPRESSIONS LOOK BAD IN THESE COMICS? WHAT'S THIS ABOUT STAYING IN SONIC'S TIME PERIOD? Was it because silver's future will always be bleak? OR IS IT BECAUSE HE'S SO NERFED THAT HE FITS THE PRESENT TIMELINE LIKE A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CHARACTER THAT HAS HANDY MUSCLE AURA? IT'S LIKE IDW WAS TRYING TO CHANGE THEM AND GETTING THEIR POWERS TO FIT TO MAKE THE SILVAZE COUPLE WORK. Which is why i think this pair up needs to stop. Couple or not, it's just not working for me. This two need to have proper growth, decent background and better world building. And people need to stop requesting them to be together. I'm sick of all the silvaze shippers out there holding back their character.
I love that idea. It even need to be a big thing. For example you could break the Master Emerald again and have Knuckles and Rouge work to find (have it be because Rouge broke it this time and feels somewhat remorseful). Then we could get to see Rouge learn how Knuckles sees the Master Emerald. He doesn't see it as "his shiny gem" he sees it as a responsibilty that was passed down through generations and as something that must be protected so that it doesn't fall into the wrong hands due to it's emmense strength. Something like this could not only develop Rouge, but also Knuckles and their overall relationship.
This is what I'd like to call the "Comic Book problem" because you literally see it there too lol; how every major Marvel or DC hero is just stuck in a status quo with no changes whatsoever. Peter Parker will never find happiness and settle down with MJ, Batman will never be able to move on from his parent's deaths and become emotionally open again, etc etc. When a series reaches a certain iconic status, the powers that be (the Execs) become way more resistant to change out of fear of alienating their current audience. In addition to that, comic books have multiple writers that come on and all of them have their own ideas on what the series should be, so any actual changes made are usually undone and reset because the new writer didn't like those changes and walked them back so they can do their own ideas. Stan Lee called this "the illusion of change" where he felt the key to writing a successful long-running series is to fool readers into thinking there is change happening (and satisfying their long term investment) while not actually changing anything (so as not alienate the older audiences). Sonic has kind of fallen into this sadly, probably due in part to how the reception of the 2000 games were received. There was tons of experimentation and attempted change in the 2000's, but that simply alienated a lot of the older audience as many felt it deviated way too far from the series foundation. You yourself touched upon that in your Sonic Adventure 2 review where you felt that it was pretty far removed from what Classic Sonic was, and while you were fine with that, there was more than a vocal group of people who weren't. The punchline of Sonic in the 2000's was "Sonic doesn't need a story" and how people wanted things to be "how it used to be" and "simpler" and the last decade Sega basically walking back on all of the changes made in the 2000's in an attempt to address those complaints. So now everything is simple and characters are way more two-dimensional so as to not alienate older and newer audiences; the whole Sonic brand became way more homogenized for the sake of accessibility. So if you were in this series for long-term storytelling and satisfying character arcs, Sega more or less gave those people the middle finger for the sake of mass appeal. This is why I can't even be bothered to get excited about the future of the series because even Frontiers didn't really...progress anything about these characters, it more or less just took them back to where they were after Sonic Adventure 2. It certainly PROMISES things are gonna change, but I highly doubt Sega or Sonic team are gonna allow Ian Flynn to really make any sweeping changes to the series, and even if he was allowed to, I can guarantee that it would receive tons of pushback because that's just where Sonic is at as a franchise now. It can't change anything without pushing people away nor can it progress in an meaningful way, so everything is just stuck in limbo so as to not rock the boat in either way. Even when the IDW comics are pretty self-contained, people are STILL complaining because the characters don't act a certain way. The Sonic series has become as stagnant and boring as a typical American Comic Book series and that's kind of sad. Good video as usual though, but yea I've realized this for a long ass time. Its why I just invest my time in stuff like Manga since that's way more gratifying for me to read.
Thing is, that's not how Sonic "used to be". Tails and Knuckles both had arcs. And SA1 was a natural continuation of where the main 4 were at the time. The was a massive increase in story focus, which may not have been the best move. But the story direction was still there. What they've done, as usual, is over-correct due to criticism. Mostly 06, I imagine. But even then, this problem has been around forever. There's a reason I said Heroes is when Sonic jumps the shark.
@@Pariah6950 Exactly, but that's not how people saw it sadly. The story focus of Sonic started as early as Sonic 3 & Knuckles. And while it was fine at the time for Sonic 3, questionable game design and decisions led to people reject the later 3D games wholesale. And Sega's inability to actually properly balance staying true to the series' foundation while still making meaningful changes. So they just opted to throw the baby out with the bathwater and that's where we're at. I understand game development isn't easy, but this really just comes down to Sega's mismanagement of the Sonic brand.
@@Pariah6950 heroes was an attempt to be a middle ground to breathe after sa2, same playstyles so nobody would complain, simple story that still has some depth and connects to the previous stuff, levels were less realistic and more like the classics colorful wacky areas. It was executed well for a breather, unlike, say, lost world. but because 06 failed and the adventure formula died with it, heroes was seen by some as the beginning of the end because the games were very connected and in a costant logical evolution from 1 to sa2.
@@sonic5993 but the quality wasn't really an issue until heroes was thrown out unpolished and mostly made by one insomniac man, while still fun it's since then that polish of sonic games got very bad. Sa1 and 2 were received well for obvious reasons, heroes was mixed due to the lack of polish, shadow was negative because it's a nonsensical mess and 06 was 06. Since then they listened to the earliest fans that didn't like the 3d games' direction and hated sonic having friends at all, and tried to satisfy people to no avail in bizarre ways. Unleashed has no stupid friends but still has the different playstyles that those people hated, colors removes them but due to the lack of budget and alternate styles to make good use of the assets the game is laughably short, even more so with gens, lost world was made after people found the boost games hard to control and for mario fans, and forces was trying to satisfy everybody at once. Frontiers is a direction that nobody asked for but with tons of old good stuff back, so it feels like they're actually doing ideas they like now. This isn't about the quality of the games, it's about a consistent vision.
I don't know if that's ENTIRELY true, sadly. There was one egregious instance in the IDW comics (ironically, around the same time Shadow was character assasinated) where Omega completely disregards Sonic and Co as his "friends", and has such tunnel vision about Eggman’s robots that he can't be bothered to head Sonic's warning. This moment of idiocy gets him torn apart. Aside from that though, I whole heartedly agree.
Idk. Wasn't Omega supposed to be like this ultimate robot that's aimed on bringing down eggman and his robots and proving that his unrivaled? When where the times that he showed some strong points?
Because fake fans and so called "influencers" just LOVE using 06 as low hanging fruit to bash the Sonic franchise while Sega is (to a certain degree) STILL too stupid to ignore them. This is why gatekeepering isn't always a bad thing.
@@lynxfresh5214 Those people aren't around anymore, infact they never existed. 06 was simply such a failure in every regard that sega wanted to distance themselves from anything related to the game. Don't pin this on the community when sega was the one who made the franchise the way it is now.
@Lynx Fresh At the time, pivoting so hard from the direction Sonic 06 went in was absolutely the right call. It was what the franchise needed to do to recover. The problem is that it's almost two decades later and nothing has changed. Sega needs to be willing to take risks with this franchise again.
I f&^%king hate the conch. I hated it when I first watched that Spongebob episode, I hate it now just as much. Sorry I just had to vent my frustration.
I would like to see eggman’s relationship with Metal explored a little more now that sage is in the picture. Maybe he starts seeing metal as a son or metal shows signs of jealousy and/or animosity towards sage. Idk how that would pan out but i think it would be interesting
Sometimes I wonder when the last time a personality of significant renown used the phrase “Stupid Friends” in regards to Sonic’s friends UNironically was. I think it’s been out of vogue for like half a decade.
I still despise early 2000s game journalists for causing almost all of the issues with the story and gameplay of the meta era. Seriously it pains me team dark is not a group of friends. They had the best story in 06 and they just threw it away.
I've been thinking about this quite a lot myself. It makes sense that Sonic and Eggman would remain static characters. That's the whole point. Sonic and Eggman are representative of two diametrically opposing extremes; Sonic's obsession with absolute personal liberty, and Eggman's obsession with absolute authority. For either of them to wane in the extremity of their positions would compromise the thematic role they serve. The rest of the cast however, were designed to compliment Sonic and Eggman, to be influenced by and react to their place in the world and consider how their ideas can factor into their own lives. Because when you think about it, both Eggman AND Sonic's lifestyles are pretty unsustainable. Eggman's goes without saying, but Sonic's attitude of doing whatever he wants no matter how reckless with little forethought on purpose, fully knowing how foolish it is for the sole purpose of exercising his freedom is an attitude that has on multiple occasions almost gotten him killed. And it probably will at some point, though I doubt we'll ever see that in the series. Not that I need to. But with that said, the role Sonic serves in the series' story is very similar to Kamina from Gurren Lagann if you've seen that show (spoilers for Gurren Lagann in the next sentence). He's a bold trail-blazer who burns extremely brightly and inspires others with his charisma, charm and worldview, but exactly those characteristics are what end up getting him killed in the end, leaving everyone behind who took a piece of him with them to carry on and make something more sustainable out of his ideals than he ever could. The supporting cast of Sonic are all various degrees along the spectrum of extremity at the ends of which lie Sonic and Eggman. Most characters in Sonic can be put on a grid with two axes of whether they represent order or chaos, and whether they represent a positive or negative skew on that concept. Knuckles for example, is juxtaposed against Sonic in that his whole thing is his sense of responsibility; a positive form of order, which also sets him in contrast with Eggman, who's form of order manifests as control. Tails is a positive skew on chaos as freedom, but he's a character who's too crushed by anxiety and a lack of self-confidence to really make effective use of what his skills afford him. Over time, he ends up Becoming a character who's just as influential to others as Sonic was to him as we see with Marine in Rush Adventure and with Cream in Advance 3 when he rebuilds Gemerl as her robot butler. The major difference between Tails and Knuckles is that Tails has essentially had a completed character arc (although it's been horribly messed up in recent years with Unleashed, Forces and Frontiers). He went from a meek little kid who wanted to be like Sonic to someone who can not only stand toe to toe with his idol, but has his own strengths of character and abilities which make him a hero in his own right. Knuckles meanwhile, has been in stasis since Adventure 1. The idea with Knuckles is that his solitude has left him unfulfilled despite his resolve to fulfill his duty, and absolutely nothing has been done with that Since Adventure 1. Games after that in the 2000s liked to ignore that for the sake of getting him in more stories. But I think the position they put him in as a treasure hunter is a good end goal to work towards for Knuckles. Or, more specifically I think a good place to work him towards would be as an archeologist who goes around preserving ancient relics to make sure history stays intact so nobody can forget the past like how the truth about how horrible the ancient echidnas were was lost to time until Adventure's plot uncovered it. Only problem is that they've jumped to what feels like the end of a character arc without actually giving us the arc. They kind of began setting up for it with Rouge's character in SA2 who very well complimented him with her own skew on chaos as a form of freedom as a thief who indulged in her own fancy regardless of the impacts her work had on anyone else. But it went nowhere ultimately, as she got way more tied up in Shadow's plotlines after they decided to bring him back. In any case, it is crucial to the series that characters like Tails and the rest of the supporting cast exist, because without them, Sonic and Eggman cease to function properly. The whole point of them is the influence they have on the world around them, hence why they're static characters; they represent ideals which other characters take pieces of with them and integrate into their own lives. The only problem is that so few characters have actually managed to accomplish that in the series history with any semblance of consistency.
@@Pariah6950 Oh yeah, I'm not suggesting we "Should" have an arc and be done. That's not necessary, just saying that if we never saw a character again after they did get an arc, I'd be satisfied with that. Only problem is that, we indeed haven't seen a bunch of characters in a while, but on the contrary, it sucks specifically because they haven't received satisfactory arcs. You can largely ignore that if you want, it was mostly just a side-note. I'm not too attached to it as a point. In fact if you think I should I can just cut it out entirely. in fact, y'know what, I will. it's done. it just distracts from the point I was actually trying to make anyway, so it seems better to just get rid of it entirely.
all frontiers did was course correct tails which is all it could do after forces how is that a problem with frontiers and not with the past decade of writing?
Something I think is interesting about Sonic himself is that he already represents the pinnacle of himself and his own lifestyle. That is why he is the catalyst for change. He is already "perfect" and inspires other people to become better to be like him. That's why we see Tails wanting to grow out of his shadow, Amy training to impress him and protect the people she loves, Knuckles learning to exit his island and dig treasure to cope with his loneliness. It's why Eggman and Sonic being "frenemies" is so popular despite it being misused as a form of comedy. (Actually, in Amy's case, I think it's really interesting that her vigor allows her to approach Shadow and inspire him with her own nurturing personality instead of Sonic's charismatic self-righteousness.) It's not *bad* to eventually grow into a static character, but we've seen that every character so far has stopped in an uncomfortable place, in the middle of an arc. They have not become their "pinnacle" or "ultimate" self yet and don't embrace the potential of their established themes or relationships.
Wrong, Sonic isn't "perfect" people need to stop thinking a static character is synonymous with being "perfect". He's not good at everything, so he still needs help in many aspects.
I think Sonic kinda have of an Ego problem, it's not always, but he definetly does have that, and i think that could be explored, doesn't need a super deep arc to explore it, but it can be played around, giving more layers to Sonic is always good. Sonic is kinda like Marty Mcfly, being this almost perfect character, but in the 2nd movie of back to the future, they gave him 1 flaw, that was a big deal for his character, and made his character much more intersting to follow thanks to that. that could work with Sonic too, exploring more of the Ego problem that he have.
@@cyan.6399 I shouldn't have to elaborate tbh, but in SA2, Sonic repeatedly attacks Shadow and calls him a "faker." He doesn't even try to hear Shadow out, unlike what Amy did. In SA2, Sonic is insecure af that someone matches him in appearance, and skill and is getting him in trouble. There's a reason why Sonic needs his friends. He can't treasure hunt like Knuckles, he's not smart like Tails, and his heart isn't accepting like Amy's. This lie of Sonic being perfect needs to stop. Yes, sonic is static, he won't actually grow in character because his ideals are just that strong, but that isn't the same as being "perfect."
@Prime_Legend Sonic is a paragon of the series' actual themes of independence and protecting the pretty flowers. He is always the one who knows the answer when up against rivals like Shadow and Blaze. Something IDW might try to write attacks on Sonic's heroism but that's just Flynn and Co.'s take on the character not really how he's shown across the games.
They reason why all of the characters are static and are in a constant loop is because every character life is based around sonic nowadays .Most characters can’t stand on their own without him. They don’t care really about the characters themselves they are used as marketing tool because they are popular and just background characters to support sonic.Sonic friends are important when used correctly stop putting every sonic character in every story with no substantial reason or cause you know they will make money.
^THIS! I still remember when Sonic had amnesia while his friends had to deal with Eggman by themselves in the IDW comics, folks were excited to see some twists in the Metal virus arc epilogue... NOPE! He regains his memories in no time and saves the day for his friends just in time for a Jojo's reference lol!
It would and will be motivational to see these characters manage to have a life and progression rather than just being attached to Sonic. They don't necessarily need Sonic to stay relevant or important, they already have pieces to make noise in storylines or even in games
@lynxfresh5214 Eggman's lose of his deep memories didn't really have any real change among the main cast either. It was just about introducing Starline and Belle alongside doing a Sonic Heroes callback.
Mario characters might not have any major growth but they arguably feel more "real" than Sonic characters in spinoffs like the RPG games where guys like Bowser get a lot more personality and character development
To be fair I don't think the Mario characters in RPGs necessarily had development in a sense that Bowser will still be stubborn to try and capture Princess Peach here even after the times they allied with each other...that being said they do have great character focus on them (relative to the Mario series of course) and the side characters DO develop.
I think it boils down to the trauma Sega/Sonic Team has had with the reception of those 2000s games. “Sonic’s Stupid Friends” is now a meme but it used to be a condescending thing to say about one of the states of the middling reception of those games. And the usual ST thing to do when it comes to criticism is just them not to do anymore rather than improve. Things seems to be looking up in a post Frontiers world but I think that’s just why Sonic Team has been weird about their characters for sooo long.
Funny how out of all the Mario characters to choose from, you went with Wario, who is ironically the most fleshed out of all of them between the Wario Land and Waioware series.
To the character, sure. But in terms of their utility in the franchise as a whole, they've been reduced to just.. people to fill out a roster (be it in promotional materiel, for party games, as cameos so Sonic's world has some sense of continuity, etc) instead of layered, dynamic, and fleshed out characters in their own right. Despite his only real arc being contained to 06, Silver's character still used to have waaay more nuance than just the "He's young and naive, so we must protect him!" And "give this poor guy a break" discourse that we see nowadays. The guys entire arc in 06 was about overcoming his specific brand of naivitey (i.e. learning to stick to _his own_ sense of morality, trusting his judgement, and not allowing people he's let his guard down around to influence him so easily). Yet, whenever you hear anything about his character in recent discussion/writing, it's always one of the first traits to be brought up, as if it's not a flaw he's allowed to grow past anymore. Even though Sonic Rivals specifically aimed to continue that development going forward, in spite of the Solaris reset. _"Ah, Silver! Nothing gets by you I see!"_ - Eggman Nega
@@Angie2343 Hmm.. I guees that depends on what adaptations we're referring to. 🤔 Like.. the IDW comics, for example, _are_ story focuesed, but they're clearly being creatively restricted in terms of character development and world building (to the point where I dropped them out of disinterest or frustration multiple times). Meanwhile, I don't think the same could've been said for Archie pre or post reboot. At least not by comparison. You can tell there's definitely a "safer" shift going on in terms of the overall scope of their ideas, the same way there was for the games. Sonic Prime is.. trying to do SOMETHING with the characters, but they don't feel as nuanced and deep as any of Sonic's best stories (be it in games or multimedia). There's also the issue with Sonic's entire personality being replaced with his movie counterparts, but that's a different subject I think. In the end, it's not always just about giving the characters an arc. Sometimes the issue is that at certain points, they feel like completely different characters (not the same as their 2010's or 2000's era depictions) undergoing more.. shallow (?) development that leaves feeling less dynamic or multifaceted overall.
ONE thing I miss is the subtle change in character like how knuckles is more willin to work wit & act more freindly wit his team in heroes. Actually I'd say many of the characters learn the value of teamwork in that game & Team rose I feel is bout Amy teachin cream/big to be more darin & adventurous to reach their goals. but back to my og point, Shadow acts more chill/mellow & overall hyperfocused on any task at hand in 06 goin forward in the games. Tails may not have story importance in 06 but how he acts shows his growth from the past 3 games. I teul think Silver is the 1 character who should've NEVER come back cus not only does it betray a vital part of his character arc in 06 but they can't think of ANYTHIN new to do wit his character since bringin him back & doin the same "save the future by goin to the past" shit endlessly & he jus sucks.
Yeah I agree. Silver doesn't really suck to me. But if they wanted to make silver a time traveler, they should have given more thought into his time travel vocation like what archie did. In 06, He decided to solve his problem in his future without even trying to stay in the past longer to see if there's anything he could really rewrite his future or not. Obviously saving the princess isn't gonna work if you think that she could contain iblis for above *200 years*. Didn't he learn where iblis came from? Why didn't silver just travel back in time to stop the solaris project from taking place? Trunks atleast tried to change the past to rewrite cell and the androids from taking place, but ends up branching a timeline rather than actually fixing his future. While silver didn't. He didn't encounter time branching or did a time paradox happened? Idk. He just stopped doing the baby thanos thing as soon as he learn to trap iblis in a vessel with the chaos emeralds. Cause I guess he just thinks that it's best to fix his own problem rather than sticking his nose into people from the past, or that he's just an idiot. So here's how silver should be or what he should do. Just keep him in his own time period were he belongs. Give him an arc where he finally stops going back in time to fix timelines.
I don't like Silver too much, and the ONLY thing i think that can be done about Silver as a character, is something Sega is SUPER afraid to do, but... Romance. yeah, Romance. People ship him with Blaze A LOT already, so Silver having an arc trying to get into a romantic relationship with Blaze could be a cool idea, but it would have to be done well, with not much cliches, and they would need to have a genuine good chemistry, which can be done, the problem is the demands of Sega, they wouldn't let the characters go that far, Sega is afraid of romantic relationships.
@@banjo9158 I'm actually against silver and blaze having a relationship, getting mixed up with two worlds or simply just them being together. It ruins both of them. Blaze the cat is like opposite the opposite approach of sonic the hedgehog. She's this royal fire cat that that belongs in another dimension. And getting mixed up with silver's time travel shenanigans and the sol dimension being a branch off timeline from the future just completely changed what's originally established and ruins the whole point of blaze being a parallel sonic. I really see them as a random team that silver needed at the time in 06. Where blaze was shoehorned in just to be nothing more than silver's random companion for silver to talk to and for his character growth. And that game gets referenced in games like generations, DS colors, and team sonic racing in Japanese. In IDW, blaze uses her fire powers more generically. And silver is written to be basically N from murder drones but softer, which is honestly not who which is just as exaggerating as how shadow written in early issues. I did not like the art done with his PK. And his mouth looks like it's from a girl thirsty thug in anime. Like I said and what pariah695 said, keep silver in his time. I want his future world to be more fleshed out with real world building. The same with blaze and her dimension. I want to see other *blaze characters* like marine and many more.
Given with metal sonic betraying eggman in heroes and sonic free riders. Metal and eggman's father son dynamic has almost been non existent throughout the games
Uh oh we’re getting more and more glimpses into his opinions on Frontiers’ story I agree the “arcs” in the game weren’t great, but I like to imagine the very inclusion of Flynn and the attempt to address certain elements/dynamics is a sign of better things to come
Although it doesn't have nearly as many recurring characters, I think the Kirby series handles them really well. If Sonic's friends were used more like Kirby's friends (appearing sometimes as bosses, allies, playable characters or just as part of the story at specific points) that could also work well.
I disagree, I think every character in Kirby serves a specific purpose. Kirby is the hero, Dedede the villain, Meta Knight the rival/anti-hero and Waddle Dee the sidekick and helper. Everyone else pretty much only appears in their game of origin and in crossovers.
@@guizhangchen1999 yeah. Only the former 4 have been more prevalent than every disposable villain of the week. The spinoffs are non canon, so that doesn't really do 'em any favors either
"If you're not gonna do anything with these characters, might as well not having them there." I mean, outside Tails, the 2010's have done that. Only two games have real stories, Colors and Lost World, and they have no new characters. Generations is a anniversary title with no real story, so the gang shows up for the birthday party but that's it. Forces is the only outlier of having all the characters be nothing but background scenary, but even that story has Sonic being this paragon inspiring a new character in the Avatar, even if I found the characterization there to be horrendous.
It's called "nostalgia baiting" Sega knows REAL fans actually love "sOnIc's StUpID fRiEnDs" but have to stick to the status quo due to still suffering from the PTSD of the "Dark age" hence why they're still around but are pretty much useless (outside baiting their fans), even IDW follows this trend with Amy saying Sonic "won the war", not allowing other characters to get the W over Eggman (without Sonic), Team Dark being a "team" in name only, etc all the while Sonic has to repeatedly help/rescue his useless friends (which is further reinforced in Frontiers), so what's the narrative reason to have them around again? Seriously either have them playable from the start while giving them narrative agency in the next mainline title or don't have them around at all (the fan baiting only works for so long). I still can't get over the fact Sonic Forces had the nerve to feature Tails and Knux predominantly on front cover alongside the Sonic's and OCs yet both were unplayable and Knux was actually detrimental to the cause by getting who knows how many people killed in Operation; Big-Wave lol (clearly it was bank of Maina's success). Tl;dr: Fans with genuine passion for the franchise and truly want it to succeed, know how to treat the extented cast far better than Sonic Team, even Paramount to an extent has given them far more respect than the core 3D games in years, I mean when was the last time it was shown Knuckles is indeed as equally capable as Sonic? (barring Maina, which was ironically developed by the fans further proving my point).
@@lynxfresh5214 I remind you that the development of Sonic Mania was approved by SEGA and was supervised by Sonic Team itself. Christian Whitehead might have been the head of staff, but everything they did was overseen by Sonic Team and Sega. It's not like a small group of fans in their homes made the game and that's it, NO. Your comment reveals your contempt for Sonic Team, you should at least give it respect at least...
Of all the Mario characters to use as an example of them not being real characters, Wario is a horrible example to use, of ALL the Mario cast you had to pick the REAL CHARACTER with an ORIGIN and VARIED RELATIONSHIPS. Made a whole-ass video about that and this is what the world rewards me with smh
Ok Luigi exists, Mario believe it or not has been rocking the same flat character arc Sonic has since forever, Daisy the opposite of Peach being a spunky tomboy, Bowser had shown to have more depth as a humorous yet evil but still caring father, Waluigi’s whole character is seeking validation and fame from others driven by jealousy, etc.
Flanderization of Sonic characters is so funny to me. It's borderline criminal in how far they took it: Tails went from an emotionally vulnerable tinkerer, to a 200IQ kid genius who can rival Eggman but still lives in Sonic's shadow... Knuckles went from a dogmatic opportunist with ultimately good intentions, to just being a name and a gruff voice... Amy had a chance to break free of her tropey nature but ended up being an anthropomorphic Tina Fey... Shadow's brooding personality hiding trauma and insecurity was stripped, so he could be ironically edgy and whisper the same five lines... Cream never even had a chance to be more than a cute design... Blaze got it worse than anyone else, though, and it baffles me how they had the perfect rival for Sonic after the events of SA2 and did absolutely nothing with her.
@@banjo9158 you mean it’s because she’s not integrated with the main 4 (Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles, and Amy) despite the amount of appearances she made since her debut then I won’t disagree there.
@@xraiderblack1850 Lots of ways, that is a reason, the fact that she was not playable in a game since 2010 (not counting roblox and mobile) is too (which is even sadder when you remember she was the 5th main character alongside the main 4 in the 2000's). she being so young yet so strong and fast give her an insane potential to look foward to, she and cheese being a duo make a unique style compared to the other characters and that would be fun to explore, and many other reasons. the character has an insane amount of potential and is just wasted.
I don't think the characters are the real issue here. The real issue is that the wrong lessons are always being learned. For many, it feels like the "stupid characters" thing is the case because the execution of ideas in the franchise are frequently awful. First we have Heroes, the major takeaway from it being the controls (more specifically, how it handles.) Then we get the Shadow game, built on horrendous ideas with equally atrocious execution. Sonic 06 having a weird "inverse" where the ideas are actively rock-solid (Project 06 goes above and beyond to show that), but we of course know what happened there. Not just mainline games, either. Shuffle was the ONLY true Sonic party game, Chronicles was the ONLY RPG, and so on. SEGA scrapping ideas and abandoning potential because of near-constant poor execution and decisions seem to be the real problem.
I blame the fanbase unironically saying "Sonic's Stupid Friends" in the 2000s. Thanks to the "Durr this is a Sonic game why am I playing as Knuckles in this level" sentiment, Sega left the supporting cast in the dust and became scared to ever use them, even to this day kinda. I hate how vocal the "nothing needs to change" crowd was in the 2000s, and it kinda extended outside of Sonic, like I remember when Luigi's Mansion was hated for being different from a mainline Mario title, or when Wind Waker was trashed for not being a gritty Zelda game.
It's funny how you mentioned Luigi's Mansion and the Wind Waker. I distinctly remember people absolutely hating those games when they came out. Luigi's Mansion for not being a "true Mario game" and saying idiotic things like "why the hell is crappy ol' Luigi the main character? Who wants him? He sucks! Where's Mario?" And with the Wind Waker it was the usual complaints. "Oh it's too kiddy and cartoony! Why isn't it like Ocarina of Time? They've completely ruined the entire franchise!" But then a strange thing happened. PEOPLE GOT OVER IT!!! They gave these games to a chance and they became fan favourites for many. Sure, there probably are still people criticising these games for the most petty reasons but, 1) people aren't jumping on these hate bandwagons and complaining for the sake of complaining, and 2) Nintendo have got the sense to not listen to these whiners and not let their criticisms ultimately dictate what their franchises can and can't be. Unfortunately, the same can't be said for the Sonic series. If people find something to complain about the Sonic series, it's never constructive criticisms, it's just "THIS SUCKS, GET RID OF IT!" Then there's the attitude of "People like this game, but I don't! So if I rant and rave about how bad it is, and belittle the people who like it by making jokes about how awful it is, and pointing out how people are wrong for liking it, then that'll make me look really cool and clever and funny!" Then people start copying this idea, which leads to the hate bandwagon. To make matters worse, the people at Sega start to notice how much hate their series gets, then realises that "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em", then just doubles down and inadvertently makes the series worse. "Oh, people think that Sonic's friends are annoying and useless? Then let's just make them annoying and useless!" "Oh, people think that Sonic is nothing more than an annoying cartoon character for little little kids? Then let's just make him that!" "Oh, people hate the stories of Sonic games? Oh phew, that means that we don't have to try anymore; what a relief!" This just spits in the face of long term fans of this series. We want to see this series have a bit of dignity again, but apparently our opinions aren't as important as Sonic haters and detractors and overly critical critics who never even liked Sonic in the first place. "Well, critics obviously know what they're talking about, right? Critics are never wrong, right?" *Facepalm*
Ok sure everyone calls Sonic’s friends “stupid” but it’s ok where Mario has millions of characters and yet most multiplayer games slots are made of copies with babies, metal, and costume versions of existing characters.
Literally went YES as you mentioned Metal Sonic I also wanna say for Cream to, in Sonic Battle she had her arc, learning that she HAS to fight or Emerl gets destroyed, yet she in IDW, 'I HATE fighting' I also HIGHLY agree with not having them pressent at all if they aren't going to do anything with them, otherwise, it seems they are treating things like a Saturday morning cartoon where everything resets the next episode and no character grows, I hate it, it's a massive disservice to the series These characters and their stories and personalities are part of what makes their world so damn interesting, they are what gives life to the series, WITHOUT the other characters, Sonic's World (or Mobius) feels freaking empty and that's what is has felt like for the past decade, it NEEDS to stop and they need to do things with EVERY CHARACTER, THEY *HAVE* TO!
almost as if characters are interpreted differently depending on the writings and expecting them to follow the arc of a character from an obscure game most people reading this comment had to google search is a silly expectation.
Silver is the really confusing one for me. Like it’s implied in 06 at least that Omega is shut down, but around, and Shadow was captured, but alive. Even then you could rewrite those events, but like why not have a story with Silver in the future where he sees Shadow as sort of a mentor with learning all these chaos powers. And I mean Omega really could use some love at this point, he’d be a cool side kick as well. I feel like every other character we know wouldn’t make sense to be there, as much as I love Blaze, I like her being in the Sol Dimension instead of the future, but who knows. Also how cool or maybe not cool would it be to see how Shadow reflects on losing all of his friends due to his immortality and especially Rouge who should be his best friend Sega! But I digress
Correction: Blaze was NEVER from Silver's future, she was always from the Sol Dimension, it's stated on the old Sonic 06 official website, that can still be acessed with WayBackMachine, we just don't know what she was doing in Silver's future, the whole thing of Blaze being from Silver's future, is a misunderstanding that the fans have.
in defense to Unleashed, the characters there still seemed to have some interaction with the story instead of being cartoons, the whole NPCs were full of life and Tails was very useful with his contacts and obviously being able to take Sonic and co. to the other countries and fight Eggman 2 times on the way... (making it seem that he was only scared because, well... gaia spawns looks like nightmare creatures?)
Nah, you could take out most of the side characters out of Unleashed and it would make little to no difference because they're almost completely irrelevant to the plot. Amy is just there because the 2000s games had a hard-on for flanderizing her personality into "the dumb girl who loves Sonic", Tails' role being nothing more than a glorified taxi driver flying Sonic around and waiting while he does everything himself is also baffling. Like, what is this sh*t? The real Tails we grew to like from Sonic 2 to SA2 would join Sonic in running around and exploring those areas, not just fly him around and stay out of the action for no reason.
@@CanalDoRyu hey, I didn't say the flanderization wasn't starting in Unleashed, but that it wasn't drastic like in the next games, Amy does stays helping the professor after helping her instead of annoying you, what else would Tails do in that time if people were bored from having to play anything than Sonic, AND OBVIOUSLY the people of the entire world are irrelevant with the story because they are just CITIZENS like the rest of the humans in Adventure 1 even if those feel more artificial and flat than 06 humans... Bruh
@@CanalDoRyu Facts, people like to say Flanderization was starting in Colors, it was already starting in Unleashed(despite false praise the game's story get) 😭
@@skeetermania3202 Nah, it's an objective fact that the side characters contribute very little to Unleashed's story, if you replaced Tails with some random human NPC who knows how to fly a plane and took out Amy from the plot entirely, it wouldn't affect anything at all
I don't have any new conversation to inspire, or profound disagreements to express about in this comment. However, I really wanted to leave a comment for y'all in the Sonic community... I fully agree with all of Pariah's points here, nothing to add! Thank you for voicing our opinion so articulately and with a compelling video. Keep up the great unique commentary content!
The main problem is that if you want a franchise to keep going indefinitely with no ending just have it keep going forever then you NEED to do 1 of 2 things 1, replace every character with other characters 2, creat a statud quo The reason for this is because there is a finite amount of directions you can take a character in terms of character progression, heck 80% of all possible character growth can be found in the tarot journey, This is very much agenst the goal of a franchise that wants to run forever because that means there would be no direction left for it to go after a while and when that happens people lose interest so the best thing is to have a status quo and lightly give character growth briefly before putting things to the status quo, that is if you dont want the franchise to ever end As to why sega didnt make sonic a franchise that was designed to run forever from the begining well i honestly think most video game developers during the early 90s and before likely thought video games as an inderstry would crash and die by the 2000s and become staple unchanging market much like the market for monopoly, chess or poker, i think they thought of them as games in that sense
I feel like this is a consequence of the past when people developped a weird hate boner for Sonic's friends, believing they were only getting in the way or that only Sonic mattered. So SEGA pretty much forced them into the sidelines.
If you don't like the idea of these characters becoming static, do you want them to be recurring characters at all? Because Sonic Team's priorities are never to make a character and continue following them and their journey throughout the series. Apart from Shadow, they specifically make use of one-and-done character introductions and arcs, because they're never fully committed to one specific direction, much like the games themselves. If these characters are actually bad as static characters, but Sonic Team's direction for the series is incompatible with following up on their alternative growth, then that just seems like an impasse with the series' nature itself.
Normally I'd agree with you. And I like one-off characters in Sonic. But then you do have characters that show up in nearly every game, like Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Shadow, etc. And in most games, they do nothing and don't develop at all. An easy solution could be spinoffs focused on other characters, without Sonic present.
Already said as much in the other comment thread, but I feel like that's more an issue with how they do nothing rather than their characterization not developing. Being given actual roles in the story that make their inclusion feel worthwhile, or actually doing something as a diverse cast of characters by properly bouncing off of the strong personalities surrounding them, should definitely be the goal of the writing in the series at a bare minimum, and I think the lack of that is much more noticeable a problem that needs to be corrected. Games like Riders don't have this issue because all the characters involved behave like a properly realized ensemble cast, and I feel like ensuring that degree of utilization in these scripts is the first thing that needs to be addressed here. These are anime/cartoon characters after all; it shouldn't be /that/ noticeable when they're used just to flesh out the game's scenarios with more established characters.
@@thedeleter3968 Nothing stops the characters from contributing to the story while also having their own character development. SA2 does that just fine, for example. There's a lot going on in that game. Nearly every character has some kind of arc. And they all mostly manage to also serve in pushing the main Shadow story forward at the same time. Putting the characters in plot relevant roles and having them portrayed correctly would definitely improve the stories a lot. But so would allowing the characters to have their own stories at the same time. They should not prioritize one problem over the other. They should fix both. It's not hard.
Hopefully the upcoming Frontiers DLC with the added playable characters will change the static around Sonics friends as of late. I'm definitely excited to see what they come up with, but I don't want to keep my hopes to high! Even if the dlc isn't as good as expected, I know that the modding community will definitely be there to help smooth out the edges given what they've managed to do with the game so far.
I think it would be at least serviceable if they just leaned into their single personality trait. Like, for Knuckles just lean into his naivete and stoicism, a gentle giant of sorts. It's ok for them to be static because at some point they don't need major development. I don't think they need character arcs, but just more adventures, I just don't want them to be side lined forever
I completely agree. Sonic's friends have been static for a long, long time. And I think there's multiple reasons for this, some of which cannot be easily undone. So let's begin: I think the biggest reason is Sega's exit from the hardware market. You mention that the last game in which most of the characters received significant development was Sonic Adventure 2. Of course, we all know this is the last Sonic game released on Sega hardware. But the implications of that are deeper. When Sega has their own hardware, they know it'll sell. They know people love Sonic and will buy their consoles just for Sonic. They know Sonic will sell, so they don't have to make it sell, they can just make it and sell it. This creates an environment ripe for characterization and doing cool, new things, because "Why should I buy this new Sonic game? How is it different from the last one?" are probably the two most important questions the consumer is asking. This means the developers and the writers have to come up with new things so that people don't stop buying. This creates new stories, new characters, characterization, the works. But then Sega stopped making consoles, and, all of a sudden, that environment vanishes. Sega no longer has the guarantee of people buying a Sega console because Sonic's on it, nor of buying a Sonic game because they already have a Sega console. Now Sega has to make Sonic sell. Generally, universes don't sell video games. Character arcs don't sell video games. They're nice features, sure, but people buy games, generally, to play something they know they're getting into. So now the questions become "Why should I buy this Sonic game? Are these the same characters? Is it the same?" And, if they aren't, people don't buy. It might be a bit cynical of me to say, but the general consumer doesn't buy video games for video games, they buy video games for the brand. Sonic isn't a universe any more. Now Sonic is a Brand. Sonic has been a Brand since 2007. Initially, Sega still had their devoted fanbase. People still bought Sonic games. Heroes was good, back-to-3D-basics fun, so they felt confident to continue on the path they were on. And then the next two games were Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic '06. The former was trashed for it's edgy story, the latter was trashed for it's cringy story and glitches. It became embarrassing to like Sonic. Hell, Sonic became embarrassing. The games were bad, the brand was bad, even if that wasn't completely true. Is it any wonder the Adventure-style Sonic game died, when the excellent characterization in Shadow created from that style brought Sega embarrassment in the finale? Is it any wonder the Adventure-style Sonic story died, when it was horribly rushed and therefore terribly incomplete and filled with holes, leaving it disappointing, frustrating, and easy to rag on? Is it any wonder Sonic Unleashed was another back-to-3D-basics game? Another reason I would say is Pontac and Graff. To my knowledge, these are the guys who wrote every mainline game from Sonic Colors to Sonic Frontiers. I don't know their involvement in the Sonic Boom sub-series, however. The two biggest factors here is that they are both American, and they both knew nothing about Sonic when they got hired. To my knowledge, they're a comedy-writing duo. One of them watched some cutscenes from the games on TH-cam, but otherwise, they're pulling it out of nowhere. Is it any wonder, then, that the characters reverted to what they were before, when the writers writing them have no knowledge of them? No doubt Sega handed them something like a one-page document breaking down all the characters and said "Here, write this". How could they possibly know the stories behind these characters? The final reason I would say is Sega itself. Sega saw what happened when they made the Sonic universe on their own hardware: they had to exit the market due to financial trouble. Sega saw what happened when they made the Sonic universe on others' hardware: the games get panned and criticized. Then Sega saw what happened when they made the Sonic Brand on others' hardware: the games are well-received and sell. At the time, everybody loved Sonic Unleashed, Sonic Colors, and Sonic Generations. They also saw what happened with Archie, when a Sonic story kept spiraling without control or oversight: absurdity. Sega would be fools to have somebody walk into an office, say "I want to make a Sonic Story, not a Sonic Brand!", and not say "Well hold on there, let's think about it first". They would be fools not to cut stories and concepts and character arcs entirely. Because Brands sell. Stories do not. Not in video games, anyways. Unless you're Sony. So I believe due to the poor reception of a non-Sega audience of an inferior product (Shadow's bad translation, Sonic '06 in general), the hiring of ill-fitted writers, and the successes that do not include the deeper elements of lore, Sega must have some kinds of restrictions in place now on Sonic stories and Sonic games. It's the only way to protect their market, and to "make sure we get more Sonic games at all", at least, according to them. Of course, Sega is a stupid rich company, they could afford to take some chances, but it's not a logically sound financial choice, so they won't. And that's a real shame. I think that Sonic Adventure 3 would see Blaze reunite with Silver and an inter-dimensional romp, preluded by the Sonic Rush sub-series. It feels like that's the natural paths of their characters, at least, in my head, and I'm deeply saddened that, right or wrong, I will probably never know. An excellent video. Sorry for my essay. Thanks for inspiring me, I guess. I can't wait for you to destroy me in your reply (/joke).
I’ll play devil’s advocate and say that reinterpreting the characters this way isn’t necessarily a betrayal of the series’ *core,* but rather a betrayal of what the series *was* in the Adventure era. Right at its inception, Sonic 1 had very simple and functional characterisation and motivations. Sonic CD continues this, with Sonic, Amy, Metal and Eggman serving more of a symbolic role in the story rather than a character-driven one. It’s in Naka’s sequels, Sonic 2 and 3, that they slowly started inching towards more character-driven stories. Even then, it’s very light and mostly in the background. It’s really Sonic Adventure that chose to put a massive emphasis on who these characters are and how they relate to each other. With that said, I don’t think the story and characterisation was a huge part of what made the game a success back in 1999. If Sonic Team instead chose to take more of a Sonic Colours approach to characterisation back then, I doubt most players and critics would’ve minded too much. Sonic Team resolved to turn the Sonic cast into much more simplified caricatures after years of being told by critics and gamers that it’s what they *should* do. To say that it’s a betrayal of the series is really just asserting the opinion that the Adventure direction was the *correct* one for the series, which I’m sure plenty of people inherently disagree with. Ultimately, I’m down with the more detailed, anime-ish character portrayals from the 2000s, or the more surface level, Mickey Mouse style portrayals from recent years, as long as they’re both *executed* well. The Sonic series has been trying to be all things to all people lately, and it leads to them not capitalising on the full potential of either style imo. Honestly, the VN game they put it out is probably the most charming and natural these characters have been in years for me.
I feel the word ‘Potential’ is as much of a buzz word as ‘Momentum’ in this series. They keep teasing the fans of the ideas of Sonic, but never capitalize on them. And even if they do it’s either done better by other franchises or they do it poorly, y’know?
Precisely! You can find many similar characters who share a lot of traits with the Sonic cast in _other_ franchises, but executed better. Used more intelligently. Given more respect.
The sad truth is that it feels like the people at Sega actually want to utilise certain ideas, but are reluctant to do so because of this bonkers fan base and it's ability to hate for the sake of hating. The use of the Sonic supporting cast is a great example of this. People seem to think that the term "Sonic's stupid friends" is fairly recent, like it only came about after games like Sonic Heroes or 06. I personally don't think that's the case, as I remember as early as Sonic 2 and Sonic 3&K people hating on Tails and Knuckles, and if you were to mention Amy Rose or any of the Chaotix, then they'd have absolutely no idea who you were talking about. Even nowadays you can tell that Sega are still reluctant with new characters. With Sonic Superstars, did you notice that the new character Trip was barely shown in the marketing of that game? It's never even mentioned that she's an unlockable character. It's likely that they thought that if they showed her off in the marketing, then there's every chance that haters and detractors would just go "oh great! More stupid, annoying and pointless Sonic characters for all the weirdo furries to draw creepy crayon fan drawings of that they can post to deviant art and do gross things to themselves to! Looks awful! I'm never buying that game!" Until Sega learns to stop prioritising these kinds of toxic opinions over everything else, the Sonic series will never get any better.
I often don't say "Because it's easy that's why" because there is usually more nuance to why things are the way they are, but Sonic's characters and stories kinda feel like they are made that way because it's easier. After 06 and Shadow the hedgehog people started to think that the serious tone "isn't sonic" and then even if unleashed and Black knight were good in narrative for the most part, people started to be like "ugh again this 'deep' garbage. I liked when Sonic was just a silly cartoon" even if that wasn't really the case ever in games, so in colors they steered the wheel towards more wacky Saturday cartoon style, and those cartoons usually were episodes that didn't affect other episodes, and they stop with a "here we go again! :D Nothing was learned after all haha! Back to status quo!" which is kinda sad because it worked. Sonic was praised for not being what Sonic has been but what people thought Sonic was, a silly cartoon that is not to be taken seriously. Silly cartoon direction I think is what caused characters to become just a bunch of personality traits, and that was kept because it's easier when you don't have to change the characters. Another reason I can also believe is that SEGA is afraid to change the characters, like if you change a character too much people would think that "ugh the character is now different. That is not my (insert a character)" so to keep them unchanged doesn't risk them becoming lesser characters.
I believe they’ll get a chance to shine. I’m an optimist, and a realist, but mostly optimist. I trust and believe in Ian Flynn’s capabilities to bring out the best in the characters in due time. I will also say, good video, much enjoyed the info.
Wouldn't mind another game in the style of Sonic Heroes. Maybe have several 2 Character teams with their own stories and their own levels. Sonic & Tails- Someone went way too far wrecking Eggman, so they try to figure out what's going on. Shadow & Rouge- Rouge's gem hunting gets Shadow injured and Omega captured. The duo bond while rescuing their robo-amigo. Blaze & Cream- While visiting Blaze's dimension, Cream volunteers to join her on an adventure to save her kingdom. Blaze is overprotective, but learns to let Cream grow as they journey together. Espio & Charmy- Vector is dealing with a client who hasn't paid his bill, and has sent his fellow detectives on a separate case. Espio uses his calm and patient demeanor to help teach Charmy about being more mature and responsible.
@@chrismedina3386 I didn't like that the duos idea was used for a racing title. I think a more action focused game would be better. I also think focusing on only 2 characters instead of 3 would make the gameplay more accessible for people who didn't like Heroes. I actually liked that game, but I know not everyone does.
Thank you. Everyone pairs off Knuckles and Rouge by default but if anything Shadow makes more sense especially considering her friendship with Shadow which was as cemented in 06 (even if that scenario was erased). I know it doesn’t help they regressed Shadow into “brooding loner who don’t need no friends” but still they somewhat acknowledge it in the modern games every now and again (ie Forces). That and they really don’t do anything with Knuckles and Rouge outside of SA2 and Rivals 2 anyways but I digress
@@redstreak9430 I not only prefer having Shadow and Rouge team up from a story perspective, but I think it would work better gameplay wise too. I tried to have each team have at least 1 character focused on speed, and one character who can fly. Knuckles gameplay is fun, but Shadow's speed focus would be a bigger draw in my opinion.
I dont mind a character not growing if their story is finished and if they dont regress the character, unfortunately sonic has been messing this up for a while
A lot of the older Sonic games set things up for them that go nowhere. For example they been hinting that Tails will get stronger for a character arc but it went no where.
It does explain why they always made Tails seem weak back in the day despite being a hero in his own right. It was because while he is, they still had plans to grow and change his character.
My biggest problem with Sonics friends is...how they basically all became pretty much Sonic, but better. For example: In Sonic Heroes every speed character is basically just Sonic but with something extra on top of his abilitys. Amy is Sonic, but she gets to have her hammer abilities. Espio is Sonic, but he gets all that cool ninja stuff he can do, which makes him quite fun to play actually. And Shadow...Shadow is just 10 times better in comparison to Sonic in every single game we see him in. He is equally as fast as Sonic but he just uses chaos powers ALL the time without the need for chaos emeralds. And I'm gonna be honest: If you spam your OP stuff all the time without any hesitation it is far less cool in comparison to what it once was. Since the debut of chaos powers in Sonic Adventure 2, these abilities were special and cool. But since Shadow just started to spam these chaos control abilities non-stop since 06 WITHOUT an emerald, it's far less cool and far less special. For example: In Sonic Forces it's so goofy how they try to convince you that Sonic is the ONLY ONE who is capable to save the world from Doctor Eggman. But they let you play Shadow in the game and he is EXACTLY the same as Sonic...but they also show you in cutscenes that Shadow STILL just teleports around like it's nothing. So, why exactly do we even need Sonic for anything? Shadow is equally as fast as Sonic BUT at the same time, he just abuses chaos powers all the time. So why exactly is Sonic even the main character anymore? Why exactly are we playing as this weakling? Same with Silver. Silver is equally as fast as Sonic (not in gameplay, but we can't ignore the cutscenes which present him really OP either), but he gets his psychic abilities on top of that. Knuckles is roughly equally as fast as Sonic, but he can punch stuff really hard which again...Sonic can't do. So, if you compare Sonic to any other character in the series, it feels like we are always playing as the most basic of characters. There is nothing that actually makes Sonic special in any way. They all run REALLY fast. Is Sonic special because he MAYBE can run a bit faster in comparison to Knuckles or Tails? Personally, I have a theory: I think Sonic Team gave Sonic the boost to make him stand out again because they realized...Sonic, in terms of his abilities...is probably the most boring character in the series. So, they tried to make him stand out more by giving him the ability to just instantly go really fast. In Sonic Generations, they even made that ,,power-up" canon with the ending cutscene. That's fine I guess, but...well, in Sonic Forces they gave Shadow the ability to boost...and we can see that the custom character can keep up with boosting Sonic without any problem, so....the boost really is also nothing special anymore. And personally I just hate that. If Sonic is so extremely weak in comparison to any other character, it feels far less cool to actually...play as him. Because it always feels like Sonic needs to put a lot of effort into achieving stuff which other characters could do in seconds. There is nothing which makes him stand out except ,,I'm blue dabadedabadei~". Also, this comment is only about abilities and nothing about personality. Sonic, in my opinion, is the most appealing character in the franchise if he is characterized like in Black Knight or Secret Rings. So, I do get why we play as Sonic. It's not because of his capabilities but because of his personality.
None of this changes or justifies anything, unfortunately. Sonic being less cool in comparison to his friends is no excuse to reduce the cast into caricatures of themselves and keeping them stagnate/nerfing them outright for the sake of propping Sonic himself up.
@@tadaokou4919 No. Nor did **I** imply it was directed at you specifically. I was referring to how this idea relates to the topic of discussion _in general._ I.e. Even in the hypothetical scenario this was true, I don't think that rationale would justify what we ended up with. In other words, I'd still think it was a bad decision on Sonic Team's part even IF they were trying to make Sonic seem more interesting. It's really as simple as that.
Yeah, Shadow has more main character potential than Sonic and when he was an integral part of the games and stories, that’s what happened. Sonic isn’t interesting when you have Shadow so they nerfed and regressed him.
@@naniyotaka In terms of his capabilities, I agree. In terms of personality, I disagree. Because Shadows character arc is over + static characters like Sonic are far more fitting to be main characters.
Speaking of the comics, I know this might get contorversial but I like the archie comics more than IDW because it felt like more stuff was going on, expanded the sonic universe and the characters to new terretories we haven't seen before and also more animal varieties that felt unique with the sonic universe. With the IDW characters sure they have their own arcs but it feels like they haven't done much with them after that and that the fall back a bit with their character (some of them). But otherwise great video and hopefully Sega and sonic team changes it but it's unlikely to happen
Nah Archie Shadow was peak characterization and was the natural progression of his character post-Sonic 06, being a hero that truly cares about others, wouldn't hesitate to call Team Dark his friends/comrades and is willing to accept jobs/tasks that Sonic wouldn't do thus acting as a foil to the blue blur while being his own character with his own set of morals/values (showing that multiple MCs can coexist in the same world). It's a shame Sega and Sonic Team felt the need to assassinate his characterization and personality in order to prevent him from being as "cool" as Sonic while nerfing him to enforce the status-quo that ONLY Sonic can defeat Dr Eggman and save the world, what a load of BS and you wonder why current writers are so reluctant to use Shadow in their stories (they have to deal with stupid Sega restrictions while facing inevitable fan backlash on why Shadow is a jerk and/or why Team Dark is barely a thing anymore). Shadow isn't even "allowed" to be a hero anymore, he is either an anti-hero or antagonist and that's it (yet more proof fans treat Sonic characters better then Sonic Team/Sega).
If this IS controversial, is shouldn't be. The Archie comics had better world building and character writing than the creatively restricted IDW comic line. The clearest example can be shown after the reboot. Even when Archie was forced to be more in line with the game universe than its own concepts, it still had WAY more freedom to take the established elements from the games and expand upon them in interesting ways.
@@DLxxx Well I got into an argument with someone who was that Archie is bad and that they're tired that people pretend that it isn't, and I said that in the latest issues of Idw tangle the lemur named the new team for an operation the diamond cutter which is whispers the wolfs old team that died because of the shadow androids and she KNEW that in the spin off comic that the team and the name was very important to her and she just said it so thar they could add some petty drama which is just stupid but they defended it by saying "oh tangle is supposed to have a childlike characteristic" which doesn't make sense since we have youbger characters acting way more mature for their age than her
@DLxxx Archie has Sonic fight under a monarchy and get slapped around by Sally. He's pretty much no more accurate to the character than the movie Sonic is.
@@njsynthesis Heroes introduced like 3 new Metal Sonic designs if that counts. Also the Chaotix were rebooted. By the way most exceptions to what I pointed out are the old often handheld spinoffs. Like Sonic advance and Pocket adventure. Also of course all the collections dont count.
Yeah, Sega not realizing that perhaps the most popular aspect of the Sonic series is its characters is incredibly bizarre. I know you didn't like TMOSTH that much, but part of the reason a lot of people liked it was that the characters were allowed to be there and talk and stuff. Especially since most of the game is spent with these characters not being tied to Sonic.
Ok this is a video I wanted to see in a long time, thank you man Also I blame the lack of proper continuity in the games, giving the idea that every game is separated so the characters start at the first stage in every entry
I do agree that the characters can grow more but I also think there's a limit to how far a character can evolve or change until they become unrecognisable. That's why I'm mostly okay with a character like Shadow continuing to struggle with his own autonomy. Not that he goes back to having no agency but, his resolve to follow his own path being constantly tested in different ways. It's a cool way to develop his personality. Small developments like his relationship with Rouge & Omega would still be welcomed though. Or, like you said, developing Sonic & Amy's relationship, or Silver growth, etc. Giving them active roles in stories would also help.
It's honestly down to whether SEGA/Sonic Team is willing to allow their characters to be real characters again. I can certainly see that Ian is trying to make this happen and I kind of hope he stays writing for games since even if maybe he doesn't get the Eastern style of story-telling, he at least has shown a profound understanding and deep-hearted care for the Sonic franchise as a whole. I'm perfectly understanding of how the character moments in Frontiers aren't exactly up to your standards, but this is more or less a repeat of how he handled taking charge in Archie hot off the Ken Penders era, and there he was certainly more free to give the mainline characters room to be actual characters along-side the comic originals compared to now where he has to walk on eggshells for simple things like - god forbid - having Shadow be a competent fighter (I remember hearing about how Flynn was openly frustrated about Shadow being forced to go down like a complete chump in the Metal Virus story arc). At least he was allowed to have Shadow NOT be a chao-bullying asshole in IDW; if he was forced to have the TSR promotional cartoons' version of Shadow, I'd hate to see where things would be now...
Metal Sonic is my favorite character out of the Sonic Cast because of his theme of being a doppelganger is flawless, but besides from heros or the comics, there haven't really been a lot to grow on that. Dude is badass but damn I want him to have a character arc.
I do disagree with you somewhat when it comes to Frontiers, at least when it comes to Sage and Tails character and Knuckles too. The only character I have a problem with now is Amy, despite her being my favorite. I feel out of everything you addressed, Amy, Rouge, Shadow, Silver and Blaze got it the worse, or poor Cream as well, since Cream's development after Generations can be sumned up as 'who?" my issue in regard to Amy is that her character change was due to a bigger problem, she didn't change because she naturally came into her own, she did so because Sega 180 her character for the sole purpose of opeasing fans who disliked her, which is not how you improve a character in writing. In so many reviews I see people say Amy has improved, but never really see anybody describe who she is as a character, at least when she was a fangirl, just saying she was a fangirl was describing a character, the fact all anybody can say about her character nowadays is 'she isn't obsessed with Sonic anymore' just means they are proving Amy has no character, since she doesn't have features, they can describe. Nowadays, aside from Sonic Prime and IDW she's just a boringly competent plain jane. She's basically Sega's version of a modern-day Disney protagonist, where they take criticism of what they think is wrong with the character, remove that character then give them a 180 for the sake of an agenda. Which is how developers change characters, it's like if Nintendo decided to change Princess Peach from a Damsel in Distress to a badass woman who needs no man while her personality is stripped away just for the purpose to avoid her being a damsel, when all they need to do is deemphasize that aspect of her. For me it feels rather sexist because it is saying that a way to fix a female character is to strip them entirely of their character, when growth would be the more plausible solution. Frontiers Amy isn't bad, since the DLC may clear up a lot of the missteps, but right now she leaves a bad taste for me and doesn't feel like a character of natural change, just one who changed for the sake of pleasing others. And this is painfully obvious in how she's written, where now her only defining characteristic is that she's female. She literally lacks any traits or character flaws, since I don't think I've seen an instance where she has displayed any flaws, at least Frontiers addresses Tails and Knuckles flaws. I also find fans in general just overcriticize or react to everything the character did just to make it seem worse than it was, of course she had moments of being written badly, but honestly those instances were less than how often she wasn't. Or the fact people saw her temper as a bad thing, which to me fits this strange agenda people have where female characters having tempers leads to SJW rants about men and women dynamics. When how Amy's anger wasn't used to portray that. It baffled me more how Heroes was often used as the catalyst for saying she was bad, when Heroes Amy is grossly exaggerated, and the scene people point to isn't even what is actually happening. Especially when Sonic Battle is just her crush on Sonic from Heroes done worse and how anyone can say Heroes is worse Amy when Free Riders Amy exists, who is literally just Heroes Amy with the worst attributes amplified, she feels like the amalgamation of everything people disliked about her, as if a detractor wrote her based off of that in that game. When it comes to Rouge, I feel like her nature to tease people and more nuanced interactions with Team Dark and Knuckles are gone, since in Team Dark's case it feels like they are trying to make them less of a team and with Knuckles they have nothing relatable other than they can hunt jewels, unlike before where their competitive edge as treasure hunters caused them to butt heads. I miss the more teasing Rouge who could switch up her motives toward people depending on circumstance but wasn't totally evil. Or how Cream's entire character development just because a question mark, which is now a total summary of her character. They also seem to be stripping away Shadow's purpose too, since when he isn't being a parody of a edgy schoolyard bully he's just a loner with no friends, they literally can't decide who he is and I feel the only thing they rely on is his popularity. And Blaze needs to have more screentime again.
Well I agree with your frustration about female characters not being feminine anymore. Pariah mentioned in the video that Sonic SHOULD be a static character, which I agree with, but I also think other core characters should also all be static to some extent or else they'll lose what defines them. I don't want Eggman to become Eggdad and be empathetic and stop being a villain, I don't want Amy to stop chasing Sonic and I don't want Knuckles to not guard the Master Emerald. At the same time, there is very clearly an agenda in place whenever Ian is writing. Ian having Eggman worrying about Sage's pronouns in Frontiers or creating lesbian OCs in the comics are clear examples of this. So it's not hard to see why Amy saying she's no longer going to put Sonic as her number 1 priority, and is willing to leave him for her own adventures is part of an agenda since it's completely reverting the power dynamic in the relationship. Now instead of Sonic holding all the power on deciding whether he wants to accept Amy or not, it's going to put Sonic in a position where he isn't being chased- meaning he doesn't have deciding power anymore. OR, Sonic would need to be the one having to chase Amy- which I think is what Ian's ultimately aiming for and which also removes the power Sonic has over Amy. Power that Sonic, as the male, SHOULD naturally have over Amy, the female. Either way, there isn't a logical path you could develop Amy's words in Frontiers that doesn't lead to either completely ending their relationship or flat out inverts it. And breaking up natural family structure, bonds and relationships is in line with the agenda in question so it's not unreasonable to point it out. One of the steps to that is precisely removing each element from their role. The male is to not act manly, the female is to not act femininely and so on as it's seemingly being done with the Sonic and Amy dynamic.
@@TheBlueSpikes Well, let me tell you it’s boring seeing Amy chasing Sonic forever. Obsession isn’t healthy so Amy getting out of it is a good thing. There are more things to do in this world than being obsessed over one person. Sadly, we never actually see this change in an actual character arc… If Amy if defiend by her obsession then she isn’t a character, she is a vessel for the idea of obsession and nothing more. Sonic has no power over Amy, if Amy wants to be healthy she has the power to do so, just make it a character arc. No women should be obsessed over a man, neither should men be obsessed over a woman, it’s seriously unhealthy for both sides. Did Knuckels ever have an issue guarding the Master Emerald besides feeling lonely? If his core problem is loneliness, then a story can form around that but being the guardian of the ME isn’t really a character trait… it’s his job which he should keep doing if he wants to. If Sega wants him in a story, then have the story on Angel Island so he can get involved or they should let Knuckels have a power that allows him to bring the ME with himself on his adventures. I hate that he is leaving his post all the time then he talk about his duty which he clearly abandons in every game. What’s so bad about lesbian OCs? I don’t see why that is such a big issue as long as we have hetero coupels too. On the other hand Eggman being a dad is so out of character for him, jesus I hate it. If he is capable of this kind of emotinal connection then he outright abuses Metal Sonic who is just as intelligent as Sage… He either cares about his creations or he doesn’t, pick one and run with it but him caring about Sage is OOC if he doesn’t care about his other robots.
@@TheBlueSpikes (I can’t reply to your comment directly because YT censorship) That’s not her defining feature… It’s like saying Shadow’s defining feature is brooding in a corner, yet Shadow is so much more than that. Amy can have a crush on Sonic, all I care, but when she is all about having an obsessive crush, that’s a 1 dimensional boring ass character. It’s been proven than gayness is not a mental illness but sure buddy, gay animals in nature also have mental illness I’m pretty sure that’s not genetics… yeah very convincing. But even if let’s say it is a mental illness (so just rolling with your world view here), how can Shadow exist in Sonic when he clearly has mental illness, aka PTSD/amnesia?
@@naniyotaka While I agree, the point wasn't she should go back to who she is, but rather build up to the conclusion she got to now in Frontiers. Have Amy start out as obsessed, then as each game passes her affections go from aggressive to affectionate to calm, which would also lead to Amy wanting to balance Sonic with her other motives. Even a change in the dynamic , where after coming to the realization he is comfortable around her decides yeah he could have a relationship but doesn't want to because of who he is. Having built up to Amy's shift would've been a lot better
Sad thing is this did happen with some characters in Sonic x! Chris going through emotions about Sonic leaving is actually great and learned to accept Sonic leaving, Amy had a mini arc and learned that instead of stalking sonic she could be a hero to, Tails and his relationship with Cosmo in season 3, basically being a mentor to her and being a ship leader which also helps Cosmo herself grow to. Both heroes had to make hard decisions including Tails having to sacrifice her. To the point where Tails lost belief in Sonic, and not sure how he grew from that if he did, it may be a major undercooked character arc if it’s not a reset like everyone thinks. Anyway, He’s brave enough to believe in his abilities to do them from his previous arcs so now he learns to go forward with his own decisions. The sad things almost all these arc have been reconned in some way at the end of their story arc. (Except for Chris & Cosmo and maybe Tails (most think that Tails just resets at the end but not sure if that’s true or not.))
Also remember Yuji Naka had evolvement with Sonic x so may be why character arcs exist. Guessing they planned to make these arcs happen in a game so they made them be reconned. Maybe I should word it better, be non cannon in the games unless they happen in game univurse.
I think going forward having a small but rotating cast of characters for future games is ideal. Make the characters present have more...presence in the narrative and highlight something they could work on.
Really wish we had a sonic show that took all of the classic and modern game's stories, and picked out the best parts to create one consistent, well written story. It's something that would be great for new fans who want to get into sonic and learn about the characters, AND something that would great for older fans who want see MORE of their favorite characters doing cool things. Starting in the classic stories of Sonic 2 and 3 to evolving to more complex stories of SA1 and 2. The show would have a variety of different tones but they could all work well if done right(avatar: the last Airbender for example has both lighthearted and serious moments). One of the advantages of a long running show, compared to something like a 2 hour videogame or movie, is that there is more time to spend with the characters. There could be spotlight stories where we focus on a single characters and get to know them better. Many people attempt to make sense of the beast that is sonic game lore, but If you really look at it there are so many inconsistencies between games. Thats why I think a sonic show that adapts the stories from the games into a newer more focused story could work. I Know that this isn't very likely to happen but I've just been thinking about it for awhile and wanted to type it out.
No hate to Sonic Prime, but i feel like Sonic should have an animated show that explores a good chunk of his lore and elements, not just the basics "sonic, tails, knuckles, amy + whoever is the new 5th main character + shadow appearing sometimes + eggman + 2 robot assistants" (sonic prime, sonic x, sonic boom all used this formula, only difference is that sonic x also added chris) there's so much that can be explored, a lot of older characters like fang, mighty, metal knuckles, honey the cat, marine, etc... could be explored, there's so many locations, in the animated shows they usually only have green hill and angel island, there's so much more, there's hilltop from sonic 2, casino night from sonic 2, mushrom hill from sonic 3 and knuckles, hell, even the master system games have bridge hill and jungle zone, which would be great locations, there's a lot to use, and the animated shows we had until now barely explored it.
Hello, Pariah. I'v watched some of your videos and I really like them, you share some points of view that I hadn't had, and now I watch SA1 and SA2 with other fricking eyes. Thank you so much also for doing the 'Definitive version of each Sonic game' video. Before I leave, I want to hear your opinion about the music in Sonic games. I'm in love with the music in Sonic games, and I want to hear your favourite ones, or what make them so good, or whathever other thing. But I really want to hear you talking about that. You made some of my rough days more happy because of your videos. Tysm, bye.
Thank you very much. I appreciate the kind words, and I'm happy to hear you enjoy my videos that much. I don't have much to say about the music in Sonic that anyone else can't tell you. It's almost always excellent. I'm not much of a music person, so I can't say too much, which is why I've not really talked about it in my videos.
What a coincidence, I've finished watching your '06 story video and this video popped up. I still believe Sonic support characters being nothingburgers/afterthoughts (particularly after the first half of the 2000s) is a product of Sega pushing Sonic team for results over quality assurance. Apparently they never have enough time to put together a great story that bonds perfectly with the gameplay. It's a real shame that it has to be this way, though at least the franchise is beginning to flourish towards a better direction now if the positive reception towards the movies, the series and Frontiers is anything to go by.
you’re definitely right, i would definitely like a video with your expanded thoughts on frontiers through this lens. because they definitely tried to go in this direction to some degree
Sonic's friends in Frontiers don't have any big character arcs, but it seems like the story of this game was written the way it was to allow them to happen in future titles (hopefully)
Maybe. But here's a crazy idea. What if instead of alluding that in the future the characters might have more substantial stories, that just happened in Frontiers?
@@Pariah6950 I blame SEGA for not giving Sonic Team enough budget to hire appropriate amount of people to work on a true AAA game. Maybe after the positive reception of Frontiers, the 2 movies, and Sonic Prime, they will finally see the potential in the franchise again
It's funny you mention Mario characters being just caricatures, considering that the Mario RPGs actually do a great job at adding depth to existing characters and creating cool arcs with new characters, even if there's no progress from game to game (mostly because the characters from the previous games don't show up in later entries with any plot significance, and every new game is a new setting, with a new story and new characters)
@breadandcircuses8127 Bro it isn't The Sopranos level writing But say a character like Bowser, in the mainline games he's just evil dude that kidnaps the princess and something related to the game's main mechanic, in Super Paper Mario and in the Mario & Luigi games, he actually has a personality, has his way of doing things, with reasoning behind them, same thing for Peach, especially in Super Mario RPG And the original characters of the RPGs are much more interesting as well, everyone remembers Geno, but I'll never forget Tippi and Count Bleck's story
I was under the assumption that the Sonic games were all different continuities. Like it would make sense that some characters regress because those aren’t the same versions of them.
@@silverboltscrapper Not every single one, some are not canon like Sonic Chronicles, Master System version of Sonic 1 and 2, Sonic Labirith, the educational arcade games, some spin-offs, etc...
@@silverboltscrapper Sonic Chronicles kinda is, but, it's being stated to death how that game is not canon, Sega REALLY don't want to acknowledge that game.
Honestly yeah, the characters are stagnant to a degree, if they aren't reverted... Heck, this staticness and misunderstanding of character is depressing to a degree. If there's one thing I would definitely wanna see, it's something that was done in another franchise with Azure Striker Gunvolt. Knowing that their main character couldn't be used every game (And with positive feedback from the fanbase with the gameplay of another character), they actually made a dedicated spin-off for that character but labeled it the "Gunvolt Chronicles" (And then the story was some weird timeline alternative dimension stuff but that's not the point) I think Sega could definitely do something like the "Sonic Chronicles" (No, not the RPG) where the other characters can be focused on and they can be explored with their arcs, but Sonic Team's last attempt was Shadow the Hedgehog and then they were mostly scared of doing this kind of stuff for other characters again (I just want a Blaze and Silver solo game...)
Yeah, this should be the way instead of forcing them into Sonic adventures. We could have a spin off with Team Dark, Blaze’s dimension, etc. They don’t even have to be platformers, they can have their own genres, just keep them consistent and have quality.
From Ian Flynn's statements, there are very very strict guidelines put in place for the way you can personify these characters. I definitely do believe SEGA and/or Sonic Team is trying so hard to keep these characters fundamentally static but i cant for the life of me understand how this helps sales or anything.
IDK if it's about sales per se; I think it's moreso they caved to all the critics meme-ing on the characters and reducing them to one-note caricatures, assumed that was what people truly wanted from the series, and then ran with it.
Critics and gamers hate for Sonic's friends started way earlier as Sonic 2 when Tails was introduced, I remember people saying: ''Why they added that fox, Sonic is supposed to run fast and it'll just slow down him, he can't keep up the pace look at how bad his A.I is and how many times dies.''
Sonic has been comfortable with Amy since lost world. In one of the Team Sonic Racing games, he went to a pinic with her. In Frontiers, a triggered or unused line from Sonic said that he should'v made up his mind about Amy sooner. I don't know about Knuckles and Rouge.
I like Frontiers' arcs but they're not exactly even arcs, just the setup for some arcs, but I'm excited to see where they'll go. As for Silver, it'd be cool if he decided to just stay in the past, that would be interesting development.
Tbh I feel like we'll ever get to see the type of writing you're looking for simply because I see to many people over praise Sonic Frontiers way of handling it. I just hope they wont just listen to the satisfies Sonic fans and settle for the way things are and actualy try to handle things better.
If they kept the dialogue and personality growth for the characters in the shonan story telling correctly, we could of got the character development of their personalities correct, while also having the darker story telling fans want. Just my opinion though.
I'm happy that in Frontiers they kinda go back to character arcs and go back to the roots of their storylines and address the roots of the characters themselves
Man, that was a very excellent video! A lot of things I agree with. Great job dude! I do have to say, I think Frontiers did an okay job with the character arcs it had for Amy, Knuckles, and Tails. It did the job it had set out to do: "set up" characters for an arc in the future, rather than giving them a "development" straight up. I mean look at it, everyone had this moment of "I've been doing things wrongly, I should change the way I look at and do things". For Amy, it is how she... well... thinks for herself and tries to do something at least rather than being either the literal caricature that game grumps makes her out to be, or literally just exists for the sake of exposition dump, like in Lost World and Forces. Now idk what can be done with that "I want to share that love with the whole world" quote, but it does feel like a step in the right direction for her. For Knuckles, they did the most simple and obvious thing: remind the dude who he is! Man is literally the last member of his kind and is tasked to protect the most powerful and dangerous power source on the planet, yet he is just chilling, you know. Just hanging out, getting abducted by a time-devouring monster, fucking around with some tiny animals for the lols, and leading a goddamn "rebel" force! Frontiers just reminded this guy of his whole identity, responsibilities, and worries. Of course, it did set him up to once again, abandon those very duties for the billionth time, but it does feel more natural as opposed to him just hanging out with Tails on the back of Tornado 2 for no real reason in Heros or just being the rebellion leader for some unholy reason in Forces. Also, he was no longer a dumb muscle brick who was there for the sole purpose of visual gags and comic relief, so that is already a big step ahead. And lastly, Tails. His whole thing was just an elaborate damage control after the disaster that was Forces' Tails. You know, him lamenting the fact that he pussied out all like that and how he straight up called himself "inconsistent". Then they teased the whole Tails' own adventure thing, which if they do end up actually doing it like a separate game about Tails, that would be just golden! Then again, there is the possibility that they might throw it all out of the window for god knows why and make Sonic Forces 2, but let's just hope that doesn't become the case. We got pretty good setups out of Frontiers and if Sega continues down the path it went with it and potentially improves along the way as well, we are in for a very good-looking story coming up in the future!
Character progression and storytelling is what made the adventur era games so endearing to me: yes I love the gameplay, especially the multiplayer, but the stories of the old were character driven. This is honestly why I love frontier so much; yes, it appears that they are rebooting everyone's character arcs, but they seem to also be building on that thanks to Ian Flynn. And as for Sonic, I honestly would not mind if he got out of his static status and Flynn or whoever is writing decided to give him a good development arc.
6:27 I’m in the same boat. 13:01 I think Metal Sonic’s existential crisis could be reserved for a finale where maybe we find out Metal is actually a roboticized Sonic from an alternate timeline, hence why he believes he’s the real Sonic.
Kids new to the series don't even get the basic character arcs that were in the games 20 years ago, unless Sega just expects kids to break out a GameCube and catch up.
i think i found the cultprit, there's a video entitled "Why isn't Sega overprotecting of it's intellectual property?" that kinda explains why they allow sonic fan content to exist, but also the reason of why the quality of recent official sonic games are questionable
Insulting Wario is just one step too far. He has actual character and character arcs in his own games, that aren't represented well in the spinoffs and crossover games. For shame my suboptimal sir.
Can’t tell if ya are Meming or not, but if not I would like an example. As someone who played quite a bit of Warioware, it’s hard to name an example exactly.
@Hidden Flare I meant the Wario land games but he does at least have friends and a successful business in Wario ware it shows he isn't all bark he can actually be a functional human being. He's just a weirdo which is his true defining trait and the defining trait of all of his games.
It’s funny you mention the Mario characters. I’ve been thinking lately that the Sonic crew is just a badass version of Mickey Mouse characters, both in design and personality.
i love Knuckles but man i hate how they basically write him as "dumb jackass who punches things really hard". for crying out loud he's the guardian of the Master Emerald and Angel Island not the Hulk!
While disrespecting the cultural origins of his design and lore, he is the last existing member of an ancient tribe that were genocided by a mutated alien water deity (yes this is canon now) for harming the Chao's and trying to misuse the Emeralds, now Knuckles is forced to atone for the sins of his ancestors by guarding the Master Emerald. Yet for several years most only knew him for being a short-tempered jock stereotype while possibly having an inferiority complex to sonic and ofc awful memes. What a shame... :/ Don't even get me started on Shadow lol!
You can blame a lot of this on the fan response to 06. Sega took the complaints about "Sonic having too many friends" to heart and started to make the games mostly focus on just Sonic. You know, instead of the actual problem which was poor management.
I totally agree with you, when I was watching something related to Sonic cast (reading IDW comics, hearing character analysis videos), I was starting getting boried of the characters, and I didn't understand why, until I saw this video. IDW comics are awesome and that but honestly I was waiting a lil more, I feel the writers want to put the character into that caricature direction as you said, don't get me wrong their personalities are so well expressed and kinda mature sometimes but they still feel... static. Tails is courage and smart here, but that's all, or Amy, she's brave and has great leadership (which I found kinda odd for her personality but well) but again, that's all, you'll see that same personalities forever in the comics, yeah there will have some new perosnality details but still. What I really wanted to see are more arcs. Something that Archie comics made it so great (I loved the Knuckles lore so much, is it wasn't by the bad writers...). Imagine, for example, they could explain why Tails is the only one who manipulates weapons (aside of shadow) and rings, what makes him so special, what exactly has in his brain... Amy Rose would be explaining her trauma with Metal Sonic after the SonicCD events (Really, I saw that Arc of Metal kidnapping her TOTALLY underrated), showing some moments of her having depression, letting other reason of why she wants to be more intependent, or explains her skill about reading the future and why she's the only one who can change the minds of villains (SA1 and SA2 floks). With Knuckles, they can show him expanding more his island and he searching defenses to his island, converting it some kind of big fortress, and why not, add more EMERALDS that he needs to take care on, discovering more islands, more secrets of his past and his island continue progressing and progressing.... until it converts into a f*cking planet, and he also would meet some other friends but in form of ghosts (something like Tikal)... Yeah I'm starting to sound ridicolous but the point is, can't you see all the potencial Sonic characters have? Just leave your imagination and passion expand. Heck I can even say Sonic could have an anime to a +12 public.
I may have a crack theory on why the characters have been made to have a status quo to never be changed. I believe the reason why SEGA doesn't do character arcs anymore is because they now are far too scared of the reactions of the fandom. Ever since "Shadow the Hedgehog" and "Sonic 2006" SEGA has been constantly bullied by the fans saying that things are too edgy or that all the series should be is Sonic vs Eggman like it was in Sonic 1 and 2, that "Sonic's stupid friends" and stories that try to be deep or at least try to say something that is even slightly removed from Sonic vs Eggman is bad. The 2000s was considered the "dark Age of Sonic" and the fandom bullied SEGA all the time even though they put all their hearts in making those stories, they were not very good at writing but they still tried hard and that's how we got stories like Gamma and arcs like those for Amy, Tails, Shadow and more, but because the games unfortunately came out very badly people started to find even the slightest problem gigantic and so we came to the point were we had things like "Sonic was never good" or "Sonic had rough transition to 3D". When Sonic Colors came out the fans applauded the game for giving us back the classic Sonic vs Eggman stories with no magic, no "stupid friends" and no edgyness (a.k.a. characters going through arcs). Being bullied for trying hard to make good stories and then being praised for writing a bland story with bad comedy must have broken them, saw that that was what people wanted and then gave it to them. Gave it to the until they got sick of it and the gave it some more. Then let's not forget that on the other side of the fandom the Archie comics were going completely off the rails with crazy stories that took the characters into completely ridiculous directions and the whole thing got out of control, SEGA must have felt the need to protect their property from further damage to its image or it would be dead by now. In the end, what caused all this was the extreme course correction since SONIC '06 and the Dark Age desperately trying not to repeat the disaster of those games by staying as far away from them as possible. Ironically, the kids that grew up with the Dark Age instead of the classics are those that now praise the stories where SEGA put the most heart into because they feel nostalgic for them and can see the potential those stories have, unlike the fans that grew up with the classics that at the time view those games as a departure from what they were used to. Kinda like what happend to the Star Wars prequels in a way. Sorry for the long post.
Yeah... yeah, I feel this. If they wanna write a story they gotta have characters, not just cardboard cutouts. This "illusion of change" happened with Dragon Ball too and it's so frustrating
I would also mention that the series is very limited on which characters can interact with each other. Most can only have meaningful interactions with their immediate team. For example we know exactly how know exactly how Knuckles thinks of Sonic and Tails but little of his interactions with Shadow. Which is weird for a franchise this old.
I'd say it's worse than even that. Tails and Knuckles have never really interacted without Sonic present. Which sucks. Makes it feel like they're Sonic's friends, but not really friends with each other.
Tails needs his own 3D plane/mech game. Knuckles should've been had his own treasure hunting/action-adventure franchise. Silver needs a solo 3D platformer & Shadow needs a sequel that focuses on his time as a G.U.N. agent.
@@sugamamaproud9810 So?! Make more! What, they aren't allowed to have their own franchises?! Their own adventures?! They can only exist and thrive under Sonic titles?! Hell naw!! I say, take the individual gameplay styles from the Sonic Adventure series & capitalize! Just picture it: A solo Tails game where he builds and repairs robots, plays on foot as well as piloting the Tornado 2.0 in Plane mode & in Mech mode, destroying enemies! For Knuckles, a DMC-style, action/adventure game with polished Treasure Hunting mechanics! Think of the possibilities, Suga mama!!
Tails had like 2 games which flopped, Knuckles had one game which sucked, Silver never needs to have a game, as his abilities and game style sucks, and Shadow had a game which flopped.
@@thefastcommenter7774 So? Sonic literally had more "flop" games than both Tails & Knuckles had combine! Did Sega throw their collective hands up and say "Oh, these Sonic games we made are garbage & there's no point in making more"? No. So why not learn from those mistakes & make better, polished games with new/old ideas with popular Sonic characters like Sega should've down ages ago with Sonic alone? I mean Nintendo did it with Mario characters, right? Donkey Kong, Luigi, Wario, Yoshi; heck, even Toad got a spin-off! If they just took fan-favorite characters, took & added more polished gameplay styles, old &/or new, (ex: Knuckles' Treasure Hunting with DMC style combat) and took their time, I'm sure Sonic Team can come up with a fun, polished game that could be great for new & old fans to play.
The reason why they havent grown a lot because they want to focus on Sonic Really hate how storytellers focus on the main character and not giving more spotlight to the allies, like if people like the others than the main character, thry should put the focus on THEM FORREAL I AGREE WITH YOU IDW and Prime make characters feel they're a developing character.
Ya know, there’s only so much character development you can do til there’s nothing left to change. If they kept trying to shove in character arcs, those arcs would become less special because they’d be happening often, and would eventually become annoying to fans. I’m a long time fan, and I can’t think of any arcs that would be interesting, and make sense at the same time.
I'm seeing a lot of people in the comments say things along the lines of, "It's because of 06." or, "Ever since Colors..." But, as I said in the video, this problem has been around for much longer than either of those. This really started with Heroes.
Please do not employ selective memory to make this about the same complaints everyone has been talking about forever. This is a separate issue. Sonic's problems do not start with ST's reaction to 06. There have been many issues thought the entirety of the series. Let's not pretend nothing was wrong before 2010.
If I remember rightly it's actually an old complaint, like a not in this current century complaint. Thinking Knuckles Chaotix.
Remember that Heroes was just before 06. One game with no development is sad, but acceptable.
You are contradicting yourself. The only titles between SA2 and '06 are Heroes and Shadow, which you admit give arcs to Metal Sonic and Shadow in your video. Sonic Unleashed/Colors are the games where SEGA/ST started down the path of treating Sonic as a frozen in time brand rather than a populated world with characters and stakes. We will never stop paying the price for the travesty that was Sonic '06.
@@armoredplacoderm Uh... what? Between SA2 and 06 there's Battle, Rush, Riders and Rivals. All of which, including the main console games, squander the characters. Yes, some characters get arcs and development. But most of the cast are just there being static in all of those games.
@@Pariah6950 Rush never had audio dialogue and introduced new characters that they had to develop, Riders introduced 3 new characters and had to focus on their development, Battle is literally SA2 and does not count as a new game, and does anyone even remember Rivals?
It infuriates me that the Sonic series has so many genuinely awesome character designs with cool stories of their own, yet they're barely ever used. They just stand there in cutscenes being caricatures of themselves now.
I don’t need them
@@moosesues8887 ok?
I liked both of your replies.
Somehow I don't think IDW was really helping them that much. They felt more like generic super heroes rather than actual characters in my opinion. And the writing even felt iffy and weird to me. It looks kinda anime-ish but doesn't really feel anime-ish. And the way sonic, blaze, knuckles, shadow and silver were handled in these comics 😕🙁☹😓.. not a fan of it. They keep trying to give sonic development, which doesn't work. Blaze fights like a generic fire bender and she doesn't use her fiery spinning top elements from the games. Knuckles does not look that strong at all. I'm not gonna talk about shadow but I heard that he'll be written better so good for him. *sigh* I can't stand seeing my boy silver getting unreasonably nerfed and his PK done dirty in art style. I mean atleast his getting some recognition and it's nice to see his super form return. But idk. I'm not a big fan of the idw comics. At all.
@@crimsonzone8984 that’s a you problem
i 100% agree with this sentiment, there is literally so much story potential with these characters, one of which i really think has a lot of potential is oddly enough rouge
In a lot of games and stories rouge is seen to have an obsession with jewelry and gems and such, ive always had this potential plot line in my head where rouge somehow finds that there’s more to life than just the materialistic objects such as jewels, and that could even open up more character moments with her and other characters like the rest of team dark or even knuckles
it’s ideas like these that really want me to write my own interpretation of the sonic games or certain game events
Exactly. It's so easy.
Have a story where she somehow solicits Knuckles into helping her with a big heist. But things go wrong and Knuckles gets in trouble. And she has to choose between the treasure or saving Knuckles. And she goes to save him after some nice character interactions along their adventure. Then finish with a heart to heart where Knuckles is surprised she came for him and she kisses him on the cheek.
Boom. Easy peasy, and it would be great. But no. We don't get that. It's infuriating.
@@Pariah6950 that idea is literally golden, that honestly feels like something we could or could’ve gotten in the comics, whether it be archie or idw (less likely idw tbh lol)
i honestly believe that after the archie comics were cancelled, the whole fiasco with ken penders and sonic chronicles, and 06, sega has been afraid to give these characters any real growth or be actual well written characters
little stories like that should be common place in a series like sonic, but only time will tell if stories like frontiers are moving in that direction
I too have felt a desire to write my own stories even before I took on my first big writing project (that one is related to Kingdom Hearts). Maybe once I finish that, I can tinker with that story I had in store for Silver to try and get him out of that "Temporal Loop"
Sega also needs proper management and know the characters well enough to make good stories that stays faithful to them and maybe not ruin anything else.
Like silver and blaze for example 😤
I know blaze well enough to know that her relationship with silver just doesn't work. We've seen what blaze was like in 06. That gets reference when ever blaze was with silver and other games. Blaze hopping between her world and sonic's with out both the sol & chaos emeralds needing to have some sort of special connection, making the rush games seem weak and pointless. (Likely because Sega stopped caring about these characters since unleashed)
Then there's IDW where blaze now fights like a generic fire user by using the flamethrower move instead of using the close range ones from the games. Is she still have that spinning top elements with her like in the games? Is she even considerate a fast character in those comics? Atleast in archie she was, but what about idw? AND WHAT THE RINGS DID IDW DO TO SILVER? WHY DOES HE TAKE TOO MUCH EFFORT ON USING HIS POWERS? WHY DOES THE ART OF HIS PSYCHOKINESIS LOOK BAD IN THIS COMICS? AGHH!! WHY DOES HIS FACIAL EXPRESSIONS LOOK BAD IN THESE COMICS? WHAT'S THIS ABOUT STAYING IN SONIC'S TIME PERIOD? Was it because silver's future will always be bleak? OR IS IT BECAUSE HE'S SO NERFED THAT HE FITS THE PRESENT TIMELINE LIKE A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CHARACTER THAT HAS HANDY MUSCLE AURA? IT'S LIKE IDW WAS TRYING TO CHANGE THEM AND GETTING THEIR POWERS TO FIT TO MAKE THE SILVAZE COUPLE WORK.
Which is why i think this pair up needs to stop. Couple or not, it's just not working for me. This two need to have proper growth, decent background and better world building. And people need to stop requesting them to be together. I'm sick of all the silvaze shippers out there holding back their character.
I love that idea. It even need to be a big thing. For example you could break the Master Emerald again and have Knuckles and Rouge work to find (have it be because Rouge broke it this time and feels somewhat remorseful). Then we could get to see Rouge learn how Knuckles sees the Master Emerald. He doesn't see it as "his shiny gem" he sees it as a responsibilty that was passed down through generations and as something that must be protected so that it doesn't fall into the wrong hands due to it's emmense strength. Something like this could not only develop Rouge, but also Knuckles and their overall relationship.
This is what I'd like to call the "Comic Book problem" because you literally see it there too lol; how every major Marvel or DC hero is just stuck in a status quo with no changes whatsoever. Peter Parker will never find happiness and settle down with MJ, Batman will never be able to move on from his parent's deaths and become emotionally open again, etc etc. When a series reaches a certain iconic status, the powers that be (the Execs) become way more resistant to change out of fear of alienating their current audience. In addition to that, comic books have multiple writers that come on and all of them have their own ideas on what the series should be, so any actual changes made are usually undone and reset because the new writer didn't like those changes and walked them back so they can do their own ideas. Stan Lee called this "the illusion of change" where he felt the key to writing a successful long-running series is to fool readers into thinking there is change happening (and satisfying their long term investment) while not actually changing anything (so as not alienate the older audiences).
Sonic has kind of fallen into this sadly, probably due in part to how the reception of the 2000 games were received. There was tons of experimentation and attempted change in the 2000's, but that simply alienated a lot of the older audience as many felt it deviated way too far from the series foundation. You yourself touched upon that in your Sonic Adventure 2 review where you felt that it was pretty far removed from what Classic Sonic was, and while you were fine with that, there was more than a vocal group of people who weren't. The punchline of Sonic in the 2000's was "Sonic doesn't need a story" and how people wanted things to be "how it used to be" and "simpler" and the last decade Sega basically walking back on all of the changes made in the 2000's in an attempt to address those complaints. So now everything is simple and characters are way more two-dimensional so as to not alienate older and newer audiences; the whole Sonic brand became way more homogenized for the sake of accessibility.
So if you were in this series for long-term storytelling and satisfying character arcs, Sega more or less gave those people the middle finger for the sake of mass appeal. This is why I can't even be bothered to get excited about the future of the series because even Frontiers didn't really...progress anything about these characters, it more or less just took them back to where they were after Sonic Adventure 2. It certainly PROMISES things are gonna change, but I highly doubt Sega or Sonic team are gonna allow Ian Flynn to really make any sweeping changes to the series, and even if he was allowed to, I can guarantee that it would receive tons of pushback because that's just where Sonic is at as a franchise now.
It can't change anything without pushing people away nor can it progress in an meaningful way, so everything is just stuck in limbo so as to not rock the boat in either way. Even when the IDW comics are pretty self-contained, people are STILL complaining because the characters don't act a certain way. The Sonic series has become as stagnant and boring as a typical American Comic Book series and that's kind of sad.
Good video as usual though, but yea I've realized this for a long ass time. Its why I just invest my time in stuff like Manga since that's way more gratifying for me to read.
Thing is, that's not how Sonic "used to be". Tails and Knuckles both had arcs. And SA1 was a natural continuation of where the main 4 were at the time. The was a massive increase in story focus, which may not have been the best move. But the story direction was still there.
What they've done, as usual, is over-correct due to criticism. Mostly 06, I imagine. But even then, this problem has been around forever. There's a reason I said Heroes is when Sonic jumps the shark.
@@Pariah6950 Exactly, but that's not how people saw it sadly. The story focus of Sonic started as early as Sonic 3 & Knuckles. And while it was fine at the time for Sonic 3, questionable game design and decisions led to people reject the later 3D games wholesale. And Sega's inability to actually properly balance staying true to the series' foundation while still making meaningful changes.
So they just opted to throw the baby out with the bathwater and that's where we're at.
I understand game development isn't easy, but this really just comes down to Sega's mismanagement of the Sonic brand.
Wait, didn't Batman have a baby with Catwoman and killed Superman?
@@Pariah6950 heroes was an attempt to be a middle ground to breathe after sa2, same playstyles so nobody would complain, simple story that still has some depth and connects to the previous stuff, levels were less realistic and more like the classics colorful wacky areas. It was executed well for a breather, unlike, say, lost world. but because 06 failed and the adventure formula died with it, heroes was seen by some as the beginning of the end because the games were very connected and in a costant logical evolution from 1 to sa2.
@@sonic5993 but the quality wasn't really an issue until heroes was thrown out unpolished and mostly made by one insomniac man, while still fun it's since then that polish of sonic games got very bad. Sa1 and 2 were received well for obvious reasons, heroes was mixed due to the lack of polish, shadow was negative because it's a nonsensical mess and 06 was 06. Since then they listened to the earliest fans that didn't like the 3d games' direction and hated sonic having friends at all, and tried to satisfy people to no avail in bizarre ways.
Unleashed has no stupid friends but still has the different playstyles that those people hated, colors removes them but due to the lack of budget and alternate styles to make good use of the assets the game is laughably short, even more so with gens, lost world was made after people found the boost games hard to control and for mario fans, and forces was trying to satisfy everybody at once. Frontiers is a direction that nobody asked for but with tons of old good stuff back, so it feels like they're actually doing ideas they like now. This isn't about the quality of the games, it's about a consistent vision.
Omega is the only character that hasn’t regressed because he’s too simple to mess up.
So by that logic, Omega is objectively the best Sonic character.
I don't know if that's ENTIRELY true, sadly. There was one egregious instance in the IDW comics (ironically, around the same time Shadow was character assasinated) where Omega completely disregards Sonic and Co as his "friends", and has such tunnel vision about Eggman’s robots that he can't be bothered to head Sonic's warning. This moment of idiocy gets him torn apart.
Aside from that though, I whole heartedly agree.
Damn right
Omega is also helpful when it comes to combat. He was fun to use in Heroes
Omega will never live up to how good the red e series robot was, Gamma.
Idk. Wasn't Omega supposed to be like this ultimate robot that's aimed on bringing down eggman and his robots and proving that his unrivaled? When where the times that he showed some strong points?
Looking back, Jesus Christ, it’s ridiculous how 15 years later we are STILL seeing the effects of 06’s failure on the franchise.
Because fake fans and so called "influencers" just LOVE using 06 as low hanging fruit to bash the Sonic franchise while Sega is (to a certain degree) STILL too stupid to ignore them.
This is why gatekeepering isn't always a bad thing.
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@@lynxfresh5214 Those people aren't around anymore, infact they never existed. 06 was simply such a failure in every regard that sega wanted to distance themselves from anything related to the game. Don't pin this on the community when sega was the one who made the franchise the way it is now.
@Lynx Fresh At the time, pivoting so hard from the direction Sonic 06 went in was absolutely the right call. It was what the franchise needed to do to recover. The problem is that it's almost two decades later and nothing has changed. Sega needs to be willing to take risks with this franchise again.
@@lukebytes5366 saying that those kind of people supposedly "never existed" is like saying there's no water in the ocean.
The Sonic series can be summed up as " has a lot of potential but is never met"
Yeah… it makes it even sadder to see it fall short.
You also described RWBY.
To be fair, you can say that to A LOT of audiovisual pieces of media.
Sonic Team: Alright, Magic Conch, what should we do with our vast cast of beloved characters?
Magic Conch: Nothing.
ALL HAIL THE MAGIC CONCH
Good one
And so Eggman hunted for that damn conch himself and found Zeti.
I f&^%king hate the conch. I hated it when I first watched that Spongebob episode, I hate it now just as much.
Sorry I just had to vent my frustration.
*Cries in All Hopes for a Silver Solo Game being Lost*
I would like to see eggman’s relationship with Metal explored a little more now that sage is in the picture. Maybe he starts seeing metal as a son or metal shows signs of jealousy and/or animosity towards sage. Idk how that would pan out but i think it would be interesting
definitely a son or something because why else would eggman keep around the same model of something that continuously fails to defeat sonic
I think that's the direction we are heading
The ending of the murder of Sonic the hedgehog kinda implies that
Metal is overused.
@@Sparkfilm-yy8ye To be fair, out of all of Eggman's robots and AIs I think Metal is still the one who got closest to defeating Sonic.
Sometimes I wonder when the last time a personality of significant renown used the phrase “Stupid Friends” in regards to Sonic’s friends UNironically was.
I think it’s been out of vogue for like half a decade.
Zero Punctuation unironically criticised The Murder Of Sonic for it actually.
Ign had a hand in it too and egoraptor
But we're still suffering for it lol
You can probably blame all those people for the games being all so Sonic-focused and the flat characterization post-06..
I still despise early 2000s game journalists for causing almost all of the issues with the story and gameplay of the meta era. Seriously it pains me team dark is not a group of friends. They had the best story in 06 and they just threw it away.
Yes! Thank you!! I'm so tired of these characters just being used as set pieces or caricatures of themselves
I've been thinking about this quite a lot myself.
It makes sense that Sonic and Eggman would remain static characters. That's the whole point. Sonic and Eggman are representative of two diametrically opposing extremes; Sonic's obsession with absolute personal liberty, and Eggman's obsession with absolute authority. For either of them to wane in the extremity of their positions would compromise the thematic role they serve. The rest of the cast however, were designed to compliment Sonic and Eggman, to be influenced by and react to their place in the world and consider how their ideas can factor into their own lives.
Because when you think about it, both Eggman AND Sonic's lifestyles are pretty unsustainable. Eggman's goes without saying, but Sonic's attitude of doing whatever he wants no matter how reckless with little forethought on purpose, fully knowing how foolish it is for the sole purpose of exercising his freedom is an attitude that has on multiple occasions almost gotten him killed. And it probably will at some point, though I doubt we'll ever see that in the series. Not that I need to.
But with that said, the role Sonic serves in the series' story is very similar to Kamina from Gurren Lagann if you've seen that show (spoilers for Gurren Lagann in the next sentence). He's a bold trail-blazer who burns extremely brightly and inspires others with his charisma, charm and worldview, but exactly those characteristics are what end up getting him killed in the end, leaving everyone behind who took a piece of him with them to carry on and make something more sustainable out of his ideals than he ever could.
The supporting cast of Sonic are all various degrees along the spectrum of extremity at the ends of which lie Sonic and Eggman. Most characters in Sonic can be put on a grid with two axes of whether they represent order or chaos, and whether they represent a positive or negative skew on that concept. Knuckles for example, is juxtaposed against Sonic in that his whole thing is his sense of responsibility; a positive form of order, which also sets him in contrast with Eggman, who's form of order manifests as control. Tails is a positive skew on chaos as freedom, but he's a character who's too crushed by anxiety and a lack of self-confidence to really make effective use of what his skills afford him. Over time, he ends up Becoming a character who's just as influential to others as Sonic was to him as we see with Marine in Rush Adventure and with Cream in Advance 3 when he rebuilds Gemerl as her robot butler.
The major difference between Tails and Knuckles is that Tails has essentially had a completed character arc (although it's been horribly messed up in recent years with Unleashed, Forces and Frontiers). He went from a meek little kid who wanted to be like Sonic to someone who can not only stand toe to toe with his idol, but has his own strengths of character and abilities which make him a hero in his own right.
Knuckles meanwhile, has been in stasis since Adventure 1. The idea with Knuckles is that his solitude has left him unfulfilled despite his resolve to fulfill his duty, and absolutely nothing has been done with that Since Adventure 1. Games after that in the 2000s liked to ignore that for the sake of getting him in more stories. But I think the position they put him in as a treasure hunter is a good end goal to work towards for Knuckles. Or, more specifically I think a good place to work him towards would be as an archeologist who goes around preserving ancient relics to make sure history stays intact so nobody can forget the past like how the truth about how horrible the ancient echidnas were was lost to time until Adventure's plot uncovered it. Only problem is that they've jumped to what feels like the end of a character arc without actually giving us the arc. They kind of began setting up for it with Rouge's character in SA2 who very well complimented him with her own skew on chaos as a form of freedom as a thief who indulged in her own fancy regardless of the impacts her work had on anyone else. But it went nowhere ultimately, as she got way more tied up in Shadow's plotlines after they decided to bring him back.
In any case, it is crucial to the series that characters like Tails and the rest of the supporting cast exist, because without them, Sonic and Eggman cease to function properly. The whole point of them is the influence they have on the world around them, hence why they're static characters; they represent ideals which other characters take pieces of with them and integrate into their own lives. The only problem is that so few characters have actually managed to accomplish that in the series history with any semblance of consistency.
@@Pariah6950 Oh yeah, I'm not suggesting we "Should" have an arc and be done. That's not necessary, just saying that if we never saw a character again after they did get an arc, I'd be satisfied with that. Only problem is that, we indeed haven't seen a bunch of characters in a while, but on the contrary, it sucks specifically because they haven't received satisfactory arcs.
You can largely ignore that if you want, it was mostly just a side-note. I'm not too attached to it as a point. In fact if you think I should I can just cut it out entirely. in fact, y'know what, I will. it's done. it just distracts from the point I was actually trying to make anyway, so it seems better to just get rid of it entirely.
@@Harrinsain yea like i was like 'these are all nice points' then i see pariah kinda addressed a side tangent and im like ok
@@rikibdgd4764 well the side-tangent is gone now so all good 👍
all frontiers did was course correct tails which is all it could do after forces how is that a problem with frontiers and not with the past decade of writing?
Whaa? The cool shades guy is dead? 😰
Something I think is interesting about Sonic himself is that he already represents the pinnacle of himself and his own lifestyle. That is why he is the catalyst for change. He is already "perfect" and inspires other people to become better to be like him. That's why we see Tails wanting to grow out of his shadow, Amy training to impress him and protect the people she loves, Knuckles learning to exit his island and dig treasure to cope with his loneliness. It's why Eggman and Sonic being "frenemies" is so popular despite it being misused as a form of comedy.
(Actually, in Amy's case, I think it's really interesting that her vigor allows her to approach Shadow and inspire him with her own nurturing personality instead of Sonic's charismatic self-righteousness.)
It's not *bad* to eventually grow into a static character, but we've seen that every character so far has stopped in an uncomfortable place, in the middle of an arc.
They have not become their "pinnacle" or "ultimate" self yet and don't embrace the potential of their established themes or relationships.
Wrong, Sonic isn't "perfect" people need to stop thinking a static character is synonymous with being "perfect". He's not good at everything, so he still needs help in many aspects.
@@Prime_Legend
okay.
then, elaborate.
I think Sonic kinda have of an Ego problem, it's not always, but he definetly does have that, and i think that could be explored, doesn't need a super deep arc to explore it, but it can be played around, giving more layers to Sonic is always good. Sonic is kinda like Marty Mcfly, being this almost perfect character, but in the 2nd movie of back to the future, they gave him 1 flaw, that was a big deal for his character, and made his character much more intersting to follow thanks to that. that could work with Sonic too, exploring more of the Ego problem that he have.
@@cyan.6399 I shouldn't have to elaborate tbh, but in SA2, Sonic repeatedly attacks Shadow and calls him a "faker." He doesn't even try to hear Shadow out, unlike what Amy did. In SA2, Sonic is insecure af that someone matches him in appearance, and skill and is getting him in trouble.
There's a reason why Sonic needs his friends. He can't treasure hunt like Knuckles, he's not smart like Tails, and his heart isn't accepting like Amy's. This lie of Sonic being perfect needs to stop. Yes, sonic is static, he won't actually grow in character because his ideals are just that strong, but that isn't the same as being "perfect."
@Prime_Legend Sonic is a paragon of the series' actual themes of independence and protecting the pretty flowers. He is always the one who knows the answer when up against rivals like Shadow and Blaze. Something IDW might try to write attacks on Sonic's heroism but that's just Flynn and Co.'s take on the character not really how he's shown across the games.
They reason why all of the characters are static and are in a constant loop is because every character life is based around sonic nowadays .Most characters can’t stand on their own without him. They don’t care really about the characters themselves they are used as marketing tool because they are popular and just background characters to support sonic.Sonic friends are important when used correctly stop putting every sonic character in every story with no substantial reason or cause you know they will make money.
^THIS! I still remember when Sonic had amnesia while his friends had to deal with Eggman by themselves in the IDW comics, folks were excited to see some twists in the Metal virus arc epilogue...
NOPE! He regains his memories in no time and saves the day for his friends just in time for a Jojo's reference lol!
It would and will be motivational to see these characters manage to have a life and progression rather than just being attached to Sonic. They don't necessarily need Sonic to stay relevant or important, they already have pieces to make noise in storylines or even in games
@@lynxfresh5214 I had to look it up. They really did a JoJo reference :o
@lynxfresh5214 Eggman's lose of his deep memories didn't really have any real change among the main cast either. It was just about introducing Starline and Belle alongside doing a Sonic Heroes callback.
Mario characters might not have any major growth but they arguably feel more "real" than Sonic characters in spinoffs like the RPG games where guys like Bowser get a lot more personality and character development
To be fair I don't think the Mario characters in RPGs necessarily had development in a sense that Bowser will still be stubborn to try and capture Princess Peach here even after the times they allied with each other...that being said they do have great character focus on them (relative to the Mario series of course) and the side characters DO develop.
I think it boils down to the trauma Sega/Sonic Team has had with the reception of those 2000s games. “Sonic’s Stupid Friends” is now a meme but it used to be a condescending thing to say about one of the states of the middling reception of those games. And the usual ST thing to do when it comes to criticism is just them not to do anymore rather than improve. Things seems to be looking up in a post Frontiers world but I think that’s just why Sonic Team has been weird about their characters for sooo long.
Funny how out of all the Mario characters to choose from, you went with Wario, who is ironically the most fleshed out of all of them between the Wario Land and Waioware series.
I miss character arcs so bad...
Sonic's friends and allies are actually very important to him, no MATTER the continuity east OR west. >:(
They may be important to HIM, but for A LONG TIME they provided little to no help of ANY use. AT ALL
@@TyshaggyGaming Oh. I'm sorry. 😢
To the character, sure. But in terms of their utility in the franchise as a whole, they've been reduced to just.. people to fill out a roster (be it in promotional materiel, for party games, as cameos so Sonic's world has some sense of continuity, etc) instead of layered, dynamic, and fleshed out characters in their own right.
Despite his only real arc being contained to 06, Silver's character still used to have waaay more nuance than just the "He's young and naive, so we must protect him!" And "give this poor guy a break" discourse that we see nowadays. The guys entire arc in 06 was about overcoming his specific brand of naivitey (i.e. learning to stick to _his own_ sense of morality, trusting his judgement, and not allowing people he's let his guard down around to influence him so easily). Yet, whenever you hear anything about his character in recent discussion/writing, it's always one of the first traits to be brought up, as if it's not a flaw he's allowed to grow past anymore. Even though Sonic Rivals specifically aimed to continue that development going forward, in spite of the Solaris reset.
_"Ah, Silver! Nothing gets by you I see!"_ - Eggman Nega
@@DLxxx What about the Western adaptations?
@@Angie2343 Hmm.. I guees that depends on what adaptations we're referring to. 🤔 Like.. the IDW comics, for example, _are_ story focuesed, but they're clearly being creatively restricted in terms of character development and world building (to the point where I dropped them out of disinterest or frustration multiple times). Meanwhile, I don't think the same could've been said for Archie pre or post reboot. At least not by comparison. You can tell there's definitely a "safer" shift going on in terms of the overall scope of their ideas, the same way there was for the games.
Sonic Prime is.. trying to do SOMETHING with the characters, but they don't feel as nuanced and deep as any of Sonic's best stories (be it in games or multimedia). There's also the issue with Sonic's entire personality being replaced with his movie counterparts, but that's a different subject I think.
In the end, it's not always just about giving the characters an arc. Sometimes the issue is that at certain points, they feel like completely different characters (not the same as their 2010's or 2000's era depictions) undergoing more.. shallow (?) development that leaves feeling less dynamic or multifaceted overall.
ONE thing I miss is the subtle change in character like how knuckles is more willin to work wit & act more freindly wit his team in heroes. Actually I'd say many of the characters learn the value of teamwork in that game & Team rose I feel is bout Amy teachin cream/big to be more darin & adventurous to reach their goals. but back to my og point, Shadow acts more chill/mellow & overall hyperfocused on any task at hand in 06 goin forward in the games. Tails may not have story importance in 06 but how he acts shows his growth from the past 3 games. I teul think Silver is the 1 character who should've NEVER come back cus not only does it betray a vital part of his character arc in 06 but they can't think of ANYTHIN new to do wit his character since bringin him back & doin the same "save the future by goin to the past" shit endlessly & he jus sucks.
Yeah I agree. Silver doesn't really suck to me. But if they wanted to make silver a time traveler, they should have given more thought into his time travel vocation like what archie did.
In 06, He decided to solve his problem in his future without even trying to stay in the past longer to see if there's anything he could really rewrite his future or not. Obviously saving the princess isn't gonna work if you think that she could contain iblis for above *200 years*. Didn't he learn where iblis came from? Why didn't silver just travel back in time to stop the solaris project from taking place? Trunks atleast tried to change the past to rewrite cell and the androids from taking place, but ends up branching a timeline rather than actually fixing his future. While silver didn't. He didn't encounter time branching or did a time paradox happened? Idk. He just stopped doing the baby thanos thing as soon as he learn to trap iblis in a vessel with the chaos emeralds. Cause I guess he just thinks that it's best to fix his own problem rather than sticking his nose into people from the past, or that he's just an idiot.
So here's how silver should be or what he should do. Just keep him in his own time period were he belongs. Give him an arc where he finally stops going back in time to fix timelines.
I don't like Silver too much, and the ONLY thing i think that can be done about Silver as a character, is something Sega is SUPER afraid to do, but... Romance. yeah, Romance. People ship him with Blaze A LOT already, so Silver having an arc trying to get into a romantic relationship with Blaze could be a cool idea, but it would have to be done well, with not much cliches, and they would need to have a genuine good chemistry, which can be done, the problem is the demands of Sega, they wouldn't let the characters go that far, Sega is afraid of romantic relationships.
@@banjo9158 NO NEVER THAT ESPECIALLY BLAZE/SILVER
@@banjo9158 I'm actually against silver and blaze having a relationship, getting mixed up with two worlds or simply just them being together. It ruins both of them. Blaze the cat is like opposite the opposite approach of sonic the hedgehog. She's this royal fire cat that that belongs in another dimension. And getting mixed up with silver's time travel shenanigans and the sol dimension being a branch off timeline from the future just completely changed what's originally established and ruins the whole point of blaze being a parallel sonic. I really see them as a random team that silver needed at the time in 06. Where blaze was shoehorned in just to be nothing more than silver's random companion for silver to talk to and for his character growth. And that game gets referenced in games like generations, DS colors, and team sonic racing in Japanese. In IDW, blaze uses her fire powers more generically. And silver is written to be basically N from murder drones but softer, which is honestly not who which is just as exaggerating as how shadow written in early issues. I did not like the art done with his PK. And his mouth looks like it's from a girl thirsty thug in anime.
Like I said and what pariah695 said, keep silver in his time. I want his future world to be more fleshed out with real world building.
The same with blaze and her dimension. I want to see other *blaze characters* like marine and many more.
@@nightlydata2181 why?
Absolutely agree, Tails' arc in Sonic Adventure made him my favorite character. There's so much storytelling potential in these characters.
Never liked the idea of Metal Sonic being treated as "Eggman's Son"
Given with metal sonic betraying eggman in heroes and sonic free riders. Metal and eggman's father son dynamic has almost been non existent throughout the games
I would like a Metal Knuckles having brother relationship with him though.
Uh oh we’re getting more and more glimpses into his opinions on Frontiers’ story
I agree the “arcs” in the game weren’t great, but I like to imagine the very inclusion of Flynn and the attempt to address certain elements/dynamics is a sign of better things to come
Although it doesn't have nearly as many recurring characters, I think the Kirby series handles them really well. If Sonic's friends were used more like Kirby's friends (appearing sometimes as bosses, allies, playable characters or just as part of the story at specific points) that could also work well.
Lord knows, if there's one cast that's more expendable than Sonic's, it's Kirby's.
I disagree, I think every character in Kirby serves a specific purpose. Kirby is the hero, Dedede the villain, Meta Knight the rival/anti-hero and Waddle Dee the sidekick and helper. Everyone else pretty much only appears in their game of origin and in crossovers.
@@guizhangchen1999 yeah. Only the former 4 have been more prevalent than every disposable villain of the week. The spinoffs are non canon, so that doesn't really do 'em any favors either
@@orlandogarcia7084*Star Allies is literally right there. What are y’all talking abo-*
@@metaknightjudgesyoursins4710 yeah. And it was awesome to see them again in Forgotten Land- oh wait 🤦
"If you're not gonna do anything with these characters, might as well not having them there."
I mean, outside Tails, the 2010's have done that. Only two games have real stories, Colors and Lost World, and they have no new characters.
Generations is a anniversary title with no real story, so the gang shows up for the birthday party but that's it.
Forces is the only outlier of having all the characters be nothing but background scenary, but even that story has Sonic being this paragon inspiring a new character in the Avatar, even if I found the characterization there to be horrendous.
It's called "nostalgia baiting" Sega knows REAL fans actually love "sOnIc's StUpID fRiEnDs" but have to stick to the status quo due to still suffering from the PTSD of the "Dark age" hence why they're still around but are pretty much useless (outside baiting their fans), even IDW follows this trend with Amy saying Sonic "won the war", not allowing other characters to get the W over Eggman (without Sonic), Team Dark being a "team" in name only, etc all the while Sonic has to repeatedly help/rescue his useless friends (which is further reinforced in Frontiers), so what's the narrative reason to have them around again?
Seriously either have them playable from the start while giving them narrative agency in the next mainline title or don't have them around at all (the fan baiting only works for so long).
I still can't get over the fact Sonic Forces had the nerve to feature Tails and Knux predominantly on front cover alongside the Sonic's and OCs yet both were unplayable and Knux was actually detrimental to the cause by getting who knows how many people killed in Operation; Big-Wave lol (clearly it was bank of Maina's success).
Tl;dr: Fans with genuine passion for the franchise and truly want it to succeed, know how to treat the extented cast far better than Sonic Team, even Paramount to an extent has given them far more respect than the core 3D games in years, I mean when was the last time it was shown Knuckles is indeed as equally capable as Sonic? (barring Maina, which was ironically developed by the fans further proving my point).
@@lynxfresh5214 I have seen enough fan work to tell You: no, they don't know to treat those characters either.
@@lynxfresh5214 I remind you that the development of Sonic Mania was approved by SEGA and was supervised by Sonic Team itself. Christian Whitehead might have been the head of staff, but everything they did was overseen by Sonic Team and Sega. It's not like a small group of fans in their homes made the game and that's it, NO. Your comment reveals your contempt for Sonic Team, you should at least give it respect at least...
@@tonycorona8501 and you do?
@@Blanktester685 Me what? Do you feel offended by saying that fans don't understand the characters either?
Of all the Mario characters to use as an example of them not being real characters, Wario is a horrible example to use, of ALL the Mario cast you had to pick the REAL CHARACTER with an ORIGIN and VARIED RELATIONSHIPS.
Made a whole-ass video about that and this is what the world rewards me with smh
Literally Wario has THE MOST personality out of ANY Mario character.
@@TyshaggyGaming That's a funny way of spelling Bowser
@@dmann2116 Clearly hasn't played all the Wario games.
Ok Luigi exists, Mario believe it or not has been rocking the same flat character arc Sonic has since forever, Daisy the opposite of Peach being a spunky tomboy, Bowser had shown to have more depth as a humorous yet evil but still caring father, Waluigi’s whole character is seeking validation and fame from others driven by jealousy, etc.
@@TyshaggyGaming Clearly hasn't played the RPG Mario games, Bowser in them is peak.
Flanderization of Sonic characters is so funny to me. It's borderline criminal in how far they took it: Tails went from an emotionally vulnerable tinkerer, to a 200IQ kid genius who can rival Eggman but still lives in Sonic's shadow... Knuckles went from a dogmatic opportunist with ultimately good intentions, to just being a name and a gruff voice... Amy had a chance to break free of her tropey nature but ended up being an anthropomorphic Tina Fey... Shadow's brooding personality hiding trauma and insecurity was stripped, so he could be ironically edgy and whisper the same five lines... Cream never even had a chance to be more than a cute design... Blaze got it worse than anyone else, though, and it baffles me how they had the perfect rival for Sonic after the events of SA2 and did absolutely nothing with her.
I said it before, gonna say it again, Cream might be the biggest wasted potential of the Sonic franchise.
@@banjo9158 you mean it’s because she’s not integrated with the main 4 (Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles, and Amy) despite the amount of appearances she made since her debut then I won’t disagree there.
@@xraiderblack1850 Lots of ways, that is a reason, the fact that she was not playable in a game since 2010 (not counting roblox and mobile) is too (which is even sadder when you remember she was the 5th main character alongside the main 4 in the 2000's). she being so young yet so strong and fast give her an insane potential to look foward to, she and cheese being a duo make a unique style compared to the other characters and that would be fun to explore, and many other reasons. the character has an insane amount of potential and is just wasted.
I don't think the characters are the real issue here. The real issue is that the wrong lessons are always being learned.
For many, it feels like the "stupid characters" thing is the case because the execution of ideas in the franchise are frequently awful.
First we have Heroes, the major takeaway from it being the controls (more specifically, how it handles.)
Then we get the Shadow game, built on horrendous ideas with equally atrocious execution.
Sonic 06 having a weird "inverse" where the ideas are actively rock-solid (Project 06 goes above and beyond to show that), but we of course know what happened there.
Not just mainline games, either. Shuffle was the ONLY true Sonic party game, Chronicles was the ONLY RPG, and so on.
SEGA scrapping ideas and abandoning potential because of near-constant poor execution and decisions seem to be the real problem.
I blame the fanbase unironically saying "Sonic's Stupid Friends" in the 2000s. Thanks to the "Durr this is a Sonic game why am I playing as Knuckles in this level" sentiment, Sega left the supporting cast in the dust and became scared to ever use them, even to this day kinda.
I hate how vocal the "nothing needs to change" crowd was in the 2000s, and it kinda extended outside of Sonic, like I remember when Luigi's Mansion was hated for being different from a mainline Mario title, or when Wind Waker was trashed for not being a gritty Zelda game.
It's funny how you mentioned Luigi's Mansion and the Wind Waker. I distinctly remember people absolutely hating those games when they came out. Luigi's Mansion for not being a "true Mario game" and saying idiotic things like "why the hell is crappy ol' Luigi the main character? Who wants him? He sucks! Where's Mario?" And with the Wind Waker it was the usual complaints. "Oh it's too kiddy and cartoony! Why isn't it like Ocarina of Time? They've completely ruined the entire franchise!"
But then a strange thing happened. PEOPLE GOT OVER IT!!! They gave these games to a chance and they became fan favourites for many. Sure, there probably are still people criticising these games for the most petty reasons but, 1) people aren't jumping on these hate bandwagons and complaining for the sake of complaining, and 2) Nintendo have got the sense to not listen to these whiners and not let their criticisms ultimately dictate what their franchises can and can't be.
Unfortunately, the same can't be said for the Sonic series. If people find something to complain about the Sonic series, it's never constructive criticisms, it's just "THIS SUCKS, GET RID OF IT!" Then there's the attitude of "People like this game, but I don't! So if I rant and rave about how bad it is, and belittle the people who like it by making jokes about how awful it is, and pointing out how people are wrong for liking it, then that'll make me look really cool and clever and funny!" Then people start copying this idea, which leads to the hate bandwagon. To make matters worse, the people at Sega start to notice how much hate their series gets, then realises that "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em", then just doubles down and inadvertently makes the series worse.
"Oh, people think that Sonic's friends are annoying and useless? Then let's just make them annoying and useless!"
"Oh, people think that Sonic is nothing more than an annoying cartoon character for little little kids? Then let's just make him that!"
"Oh, people hate the stories of Sonic games? Oh phew, that means that we don't have to try anymore; what a relief!"
This just spits in the face of long term fans of this series. We want to see this series have a bit of dignity again, but apparently our opinions aren't as important as Sonic haters and detractors and overly critical critics who never even liked Sonic in the first place. "Well, critics obviously know what they're talking about, right? Critics are never wrong, right?" *Facepalm*
Ok sure everyone calls Sonic’s friends “stupid” but it’s ok where Mario has millions of characters and yet most multiplayer games slots are made of copies with babies, metal, and costume versions of existing characters.
I mean honestly, most of the Mario fanbase doesn't like those either.
@@Ultra04channel Yet if Luigi was unplayable in a mainline title for several years, I highly doubt the Mario fandom would take it lying down.
pink gold peach
@@lynxfresh5214 It's because Luigi's the SUPERIOR Mario brother. Only reason the series ain't got his name is he's humble about it
Dude the issue with sonic's friends is that they are barley utilize infact i bet you didn't watch the video!
Literally went YES as you mentioned Metal Sonic
I also wanna say for Cream to, in Sonic Battle she had her arc, learning that she HAS to fight or Emerl gets destroyed, yet she in IDW, 'I HATE fighting'
I also HIGHLY agree with not having them pressent at all if they aren't going to do anything with them, otherwise, it seems they are treating things like a Saturday morning cartoon where everything resets the next episode and no character grows, I hate it, it's a massive disservice to the series
These characters and their stories and personalities are part of what makes their world so damn interesting, they are what gives life to the series, WITHOUT the other characters, Sonic's World (or Mobius) feels freaking empty and that's what is has felt like for the past decade, it NEEDS to stop and they need to do things with EVERY CHARACTER, THEY *HAVE* TO!
She really says that in IDW? wow, i never read IDWomics, i though it was more faithful to the characters than that.
almost as if characters are interpreted differently depending on the writings and expecting them to follow the arc of a character from an obscure game most people reading this comment had to google search is a silly expectation.
@@banjo9158 hit or miss for some but most characters are pretty well portrayed, better then the games imo.
@@Blanktester685 earlier games or later games?
@@Blanktester685 I expect a writer to look back on established storytelling of a series, like a good writer
Silver is the really confusing one for me. Like it’s implied in 06 at least that Omega is shut down, but around, and Shadow was captured, but alive. Even then you could rewrite those events, but like why not have a story with Silver in the future where he sees Shadow as sort of a mentor with learning all these chaos powers. And I mean Omega really could use some love at this point, he’d be a cool side kick as well. I feel like every other character we know wouldn’t make sense to be there, as much as I love Blaze, I like her being in the Sol Dimension instead of the future, but who knows. Also how cool or maybe not cool would it be to see how Shadow reflects on losing all of his friends due to his immortality and especially Rouge who should be his best friend Sega! But I digress
Correction: Blaze was NEVER from Silver's future, she was always from the Sol Dimension, it's stated on the old Sonic 06 official website, that can still be acessed with WayBackMachine, we just don't know what she was doing in Silver's future, the whole thing of Blaze being from Silver's future, is a misunderstanding that the fans have.
@@banjo9158 when did I say Blaze was from the future? I just said I don’t like her being in the future, I prefer her to remain in the Sol Dimension
@@Night-gw3oe Sorry, i misinterpreted what you said, my english isn't that good.
in defense to Unleashed, the characters there still seemed to have some interaction with the story instead of being cartoons, the whole NPCs were full of life and Tails was very useful with his contacts and obviously being able to take Sonic and co. to the other countries and fight Eggman 2 times on the way... (making it seem that he was only scared because, well... gaia spawns looks like nightmare creatures?)
Nah, you could take out most of the side characters out of Unleashed and it would make little to no difference because they're almost completely irrelevant to the plot. Amy is just there because the 2000s games had a hard-on for flanderizing her personality into "the dumb girl who loves Sonic", Tails' role being nothing more than a glorified taxi driver flying Sonic around and waiting while he does everything himself is also baffling. Like, what is this sh*t? The real Tails we grew to like from Sonic 2 to SA2 would join Sonic in running around and exploring those areas, not just fly him around and stay out of the action for no reason.
@@CanalDoRyu hey, I didn't say the flanderization wasn't starting in Unleashed, but that it wasn't drastic like in the next games, Amy does stays helping the professor after helping her instead of annoying you, what else would Tails do in that time if people were bored from having to play anything than Sonic, AND OBVIOUSLY the people of the entire world are irrelevant with the story because they are just CITIZENS like the rest of the humans in Adventure 1 even if those feel more artificial and flat than 06 humans...
Bruh
@@CanalDoRyu Facts, people like to say Flanderization was starting in Colors, it was already starting in Unleashed(despite false praise the game's story get) 😭
@@CanalDoRyuYour onion, m8.
@@skeetermania3202 Nah, it's an objective fact that the side characters contribute very little to Unleashed's story, if you replaced Tails with some random human NPC who knows how to fly a plane and took out Amy from the plot entirely, it wouldn't affect anything at all
I don't have any new conversation to inspire, or profound disagreements to express about in this comment. However, I really wanted to leave a comment for y'all in the Sonic community... I fully agree with all of Pariah's points here, nothing to add! Thank you for voicing our opinion so articulately and with a compelling video. Keep up the great unique commentary content!
The main problem is that if you want a franchise to keep going indefinitely with no ending just have it keep going forever then you NEED to do 1 of 2 things
1, replace every character with other characters
2, creat a statud quo
The reason for this is because there is a finite amount of directions you can take a character in terms of character progression, heck 80% of all possible character growth can be found in the tarot journey,
This is very much agenst the goal of a franchise that wants to run forever because that means there would be no direction left for it to go after a while and when that happens people lose interest so the best thing is to have a status quo and lightly give character growth briefly before putting things to the status quo, that is if you dont want the franchise to ever end
As to why sega didnt make sonic a franchise that was designed to run forever from the begining well i honestly think most video game developers during the early 90s and before likely thought video games as an inderstry would crash and die by the 2000s and become staple unchanging market much like the market for monopoly, chess or poker, i think they thought of them as games in that sense
i honestly believe that projared singlehandedly brought the decade of shit upon us with his sonic adventure 2 review
I feel like this is a consequence of the past when people developped a weird hate boner for Sonic's friends, believing they were only getting in the way or that only Sonic mattered. So SEGA pretty much forced them into the sidelines.
If you don't like the idea of these characters becoming static, do you want them to be recurring characters at all? Because Sonic Team's priorities are never to make a character and continue following them and their journey throughout the series. Apart from Shadow, they specifically make use of one-and-done character introductions and arcs, because they're never fully committed to one specific direction, much like the games themselves. If these characters are actually bad as static characters, but Sonic Team's direction for the series is incompatible with following up on their alternative growth, then that just seems like an impasse with the series' nature itself.
Normally I'd agree with you. And I like one-off characters in Sonic. But then you do have characters that show up in nearly every game, like Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Shadow, etc. And in most games, they do nothing and don't develop at all.
An easy solution could be spinoffs focused on other characters, without Sonic present.
Already said as much in the other comment thread, but I feel like that's more an issue with how they do nothing rather than their characterization not developing. Being given actual roles in the story that make their inclusion feel worthwhile, or actually doing something as a diverse cast of characters by properly bouncing off of the strong personalities surrounding them, should definitely be the goal of the writing in the series at a bare minimum, and I think the lack of that is much more noticeable a problem that needs to be corrected.
Games like Riders don't have this issue because all the characters involved behave like a properly realized ensemble cast, and I feel like ensuring that degree of utilization in these scripts is the first thing that needs to be addressed here. These are anime/cartoon characters after all; it shouldn't be /that/ noticeable when they're used just to flesh out the game's scenarios with more established characters.
@@thedeleter3968 Nothing stops the characters from contributing to the story while also having their own character development. SA2 does that just fine, for example. There's a lot going on in that game. Nearly every character has some kind of arc. And they all mostly manage to also serve in pushing the main Shadow story forward at the same time.
Putting the characters in plot relevant roles and having them portrayed correctly would definitely improve the stories a lot. But so would allowing the characters to have their own stories at the same time. They should not prioritize one problem over the other. They should fix both. It's not hard.
Hopefully the upcoming Frontiers DLC with the added playable characters will change the static around Sonics friends as of late. I'm definitely excited to see what they come up with, but I don't want to keep my hopes to high!
Even if the dlc isn't as good as expected, I know that the modding community will definitely be there to help smooth out the edges given what they've managed to do with the game so far.
I think it would be at least serviceable if they just leaned into their single personality trait. Like, for Knuckles just lean into his naivete and stoicism, a gentle giant of sorts. It's ok for them to be static because at some point they don't need major development. I don't think they need character arcs, but just more adventures, I just don't want them to be side lined forever
I completely agree. Sonic's friends have been static for a long, long time.
And I think there's multiple reasons for this, some of which cannot be easily undone. So let's begin:
I think the biggest reason is Sega's exit from the hardware market. You mention that the last game in which most of the characters received significant development was Sonic Adventure 2. Of course, we all know this is the last Sonic game released on Sega hardware. But the implications of that are deeper. When Sega has their own hardware, they know it'll sell. They know people love Sonic and will buy their consoles just for Sonic. They know Sonic will sell, so they don't have to make it sell, they can just make it and sell it. This creates an environment ripe for characterization and doing cool, new things, because "Why should I buy this new Sonic game? How is it different from the last one?" are probably the two most important questions the consumer is asking. This means the developers and the writers have to come up with new things so that people don't stop buying. This creates new stories, new characters, characterization, the works.
But then Sega stopped making consoles, and, all of a sudden, that environment vanishes. Sega no longer has the guarantee of people buying a Sega console because Sonic's on it, nor of buying a Sonic game because they already have a Sega console. Now Sega has to make Sonic sell. Generally, universes don't sell video games. Character arcs don't sell video games. They're nice features, sure, but people buy games, generally, to play something they know they're getting into. So now the questions become "Why should I buy this Sonic game? Are these the same characters? Is it the same?" And, if they aren't, people don't buy.
It might be a bit cynical of me to say, but the general consumer doesn't buy video games for video games, they buy video games for the brand.
Sonic isn't a universe any more. Now Sonic is a Brand. Sonic has been a Brand since 2007.
Initially, Sega still had their devoted fanbase. People still bought Sonic games. Heroes was good, back-to-3D-basics fun, so they felt confident to continue on the path they were on.
And then the next two games were Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic '06. The former was trashed for it's edgy story, the latter was trashed for it's cringy story and glitches. It became embarrassing to like Sonic. Hell, Sonic became embarrassing. The games were bad, the brand was bad, even if that wasn't completely true. Is it any wonder the Adventure-style Sonic game died, when the excellent characterization in Shadow created from that style brought Sega embarrassment in the finale? Is it any wonder the Adventure-style Sonic story died, when it was horribly rushed and therefore terribly incomplete and filled with holes, leaving it disappointing, frustrating, and easy to rag on?
Is it any wonder Sonic Unleashed was another back-to-3D-basics game?
Another reason I would say is Pontac and Graff. To my knowledge, these are the guys who wrote every mainline game from Sonic Colors to Sonic Frontiers. I don't know their involvement in the Sonic Boom sub-series, however. The two biggest factors here is that they are both American, and they both knew nothing about Sonic when they got hired. To my knowledge, they're a comedy-writing duo. One of them watched some cutscenes from the games on TH-cam, but otherwise, they're pulling it out of nowhere. Is it any wonder, then, that the characters reverted to what they were before, when the writers writing them have no knowledge of them? No doubt Sega handed them something like a one-page document breaking down all the characters and said "Here, write this". How could they possibly know the stories behind these characters?
The final reason I would say is Sega itself. Sega saw what happened when they made the Sonic universe on their own hardware: they had to exit the market due to financial trouble. Sega saw what happened when they made the Sonic universe on others' hardware: the games get panned and criticized. Then Sega saw what happened when they made the Sonic Brand on others' hardware: the games are well-received and sell. At the time, everybody loved Sonic Unleashed, Sonic Colors, and Sonic Generations. They also saw what happened with Archie, when a Sonic story kept spiraling without control or oversight: absurdity. Sega would be fools to have somebody walk into an office, say "I want to make a Sonic Story, not a Sonic Brand!", and not say "Well hold on there, let's think about it first". They would be fools not to cut stories and concepts and character arcs entirely. Because Brands sell. Stories do not. Not in video games, anyways. Unless you're Sony.
So I believe due to the poor reception of a non-Sega audience of an inferior product (Shadow's bad translation, Sonic '06 in general), the hiring of ill-fitted writers, and the successes that do not include the deeper elements of lore, Sega must have some kinds of restrictions in place now on Sonic stories and Sonic games. It's the only way to protect their market, and to "make sure we get more Sonic games at all", at least, according to them.
Of course, Sega is a stupid rich company, they could afford to take some chances, but it's not a logically sound financial choice, so they won't.
And that's a real shame. I think that Sonic Adventure 3 would see Blaze reunite with Silver and an inter-dimensional romp, preluded by the Sonic Rush sub-series. It feels like that's the natural paths of their characters, at least, in my head, and I'm deeply saddened that, right or wrong, I will probably never know.
An excellent video. Sorry for my essay. Thanks for inspiring me, I guess. I can't wait for you to destroy me in your reply (/joke).
I’ll play devil’s advocate and say that reinterpreting the characters this way isn’t necessarily a betrayal of the series’ *core,* but rather a betrayal of what the series *was* in the Adventure era. Right at its inception, Sonic 1 had very simple and functional characterisation and motivations. Sonic CD continues this, with Sonic, Amy, Metal and Eggman serving more of a symbolic role in the story rather than a character-driven one. It’s in Naka’s sequels, Sonic 2 and 3, that they slowly started inching towards more character-driven stories. Even then, it’s very light and mostly in the background.
It’s really Sonic Adventure that chose to put a massive emphasis on who these characters are and how they relate to each other. With that said, I don’t think the story and characterisation was a huge part of what made the game a success back in 1999. If Sonic Team instead chose to take more of a Sonic Colours approach to characterisation back then, I doubt most players and critics would’ve minded too much. Sonic Team resolved to turn the Sonic cast into much more simplified caricatures after years of being told by critics and gamers that it’s what they *should* do. To say that it’s a betrayal of the series is really just asserting the opinion that the Adventure direction was the *correct* one for the series, which I’m sure plenty of people inherently disagree with.
Ultimately, I’m down with the more detailed, anime-ish character portrayals from the 2000s, or the more surface level, Mickey Mouse style portrayals from recent years, as long as they’re both *executed* well. The Sonic series has been trying to be all things to all people lately, and it leads to them not capitalising on the full potential of either style imo. Honestly, the VN game they put it out is probably the most charming and natural these characters have been in years for me.
Strange how the unironic April Fool's game has [supposedly] the best characterization in years.
I feel the word ‘Potential’ is as much of a buzz word as ‘Momentum’ in this series. They keep teasing the fans of the ideas of Sonic, but never capitalize on them. And even if they do it’s either done better by other franchises or they do it poorly, y’know?
Precisely! You can find many similar characters who share a lot of traits with the Sonic cast in _other_ franchises, but executed better. Used more intelligently. Given more respect.
The sad truth is that it feels like the people at Sega actually want to utilise certain ideas, but are reluctant to do so because of this bonkers fan base and it's ability to hate for the sake of hating.
The use of the Sonic supporting cast is a great example of this. People seem to think that the term "Sonic's stupid friends" is fairly recent, like it only came about after games like Sonic Heroes or 06. I personally don't think that's the case, as I remember as early as Sonic 2 and Sonic 3&K people hating on Tails and Knuckles, and if you were to mention Amy Rose or any of the Chaotix, then they'd have absolutely no idea who you were talking about.
Even nowadays you can tell that Sega are still reluctant with new characters. With Sonic Superstars, did you notice that the new character Trip was barely shown in the marketing of that game? It's never even mentioned that she's an unlockable character. It's likely that they thought that if they showed her off in the marketing, then there's every chance that haters and detractors would just go "oh great! More stupid, annoying and pointless Sonic characters for all the weirdo furries to draw creepy crayon fan drawings of that they can post to deviant art and do gross things to themselves to! Looks awful! I'm never buying that game!"
Until Sega learns to stop prioritising these kinds of toxic opinions over everything else, the Sonic series will never get any better.
I often don't say "Because it's easy that's why" because there is usually more nuance to why things are the way they are, but Sonic's characters and stories kinda feel like they are made that way because it's easier. After 06 and Shadow the hedgehog people started to think that the serious tone "isn't sonic" and then even if unleashed and Black knight were good in narrative for the most part, people started to be like "ugh again this 'deep' garbage. I liked when Sonic was just a silly cartoon" even if that wasn't really the case ever in games, so in colors they steered the wheel towards more wacky Saturday cartoon style, and those cartoons usually were episodes that didn't affect other episodes, and they stop with a "here we go again! :D Nothing was learned after all haha! Back to status quo!" which is kinda sad because it worked. Sonic was praised for not being what Sonic has been but what people thought Sonic was, a silly cartoon that is not to be taken seriously.
Silly cartoon direction I think is what caused characters to become just a bunch of personality traits, and that was kept because it's easier when you don't have to change the characters. Another reason I can also believe is that SEGA is afraid to change the characters, like if you change a character too much people would think that "ugh the character is now different. That is not my (insert a character)" so to keep them unchanged doesn't risk them becoming lesser characters.
"Let's Talk About Sonic's Stupid Friends" he says as he puts emphasis on 3 rivals in the thumbnail.
I believe they’ll get a chance to shine.
I’m an optimist, and a realist, but mostly optimist. I trust and believe in Ian Flynn’s capabilities to bring out the best in the characters in due time.
I will also say, good video, much enjoyed the info.
Wouldn't mind another game in the style of Sonic Heroes. Maybe have several 2 Character teams with their own stories and their own levels.
Sonic & Tails- Someone went way too far wrecking Eggman, so they try to figure out what's going on.
Shadow & Rouge- Rouge's gem hunting gets Shadow injured and Omega captured. The duo bond while rescuing their robo-amigo.
Blaze & Cream- While visiting Blaze's dimension, Cream volunteers to join her on an adventure to save her kingdom. Blaze is overprotective, but learns to let Cream grow as they journey together.
Espio & Charmy- Vector is dealing with a client who hasn't paid his bill, and has sent his fellow detectives on a separate case. Espio uses his calm and patient demeanor to help teach Charmy about being more mature and responsible.
Sadly, Shadow would have to be allowed to care about his friends again, which as of now, may never happen.
Your idea reminds me a ton of Sonic Rivals 2. Which was all about duo teams with storyline that crossover.
@@chrismedina3386 I didn't like that the duos idea was used for a racing title. I think a more action focused game would be better. I also think focusing on only 2 characters instead of 3 would make the gameplay more accessible for people who didn't like Heroes. I actually liked that game, but I know not everyone does.
Thank you. Everyone pairs off Knuckles and Rouge by default but if anything Shadow makes more sense especially considering her friendship with Shadow which was as cemented in 06 (even if that scenario was erased). I know it doesn’t help they regressed Shadow into “brooding loner who don’t need no friends” but still they somewhat acknowledge it in the modern games every now and again (ie Forces). That and they really don’t do anything with Knuckles and Rouge outside of SA2 and Rivals 2 anyways but I digress
@@redstreak9430 I not only prefer having Shadow and Rouge team up from a story perspective, but I think it would work better gameplay wise too. I tried to have each team have at least 1 character focused on speed, and one character who can fly. Knuckles gameplay is fun, but Shadow's speed focus would be a bigger draw in my opinion.
I dont mind a character not growing if their story is finished and if they dont regress the character, unfortunately sonic has been messing this up for a while
The thing is most of them aren’t finished
A lot of the older Sonic games set things up for them that go nowhere. For example they been hinting that Tails will get stronger for a character arc but it went no where.
It does explain why they always made Tails seem weak back in the day despite being a hero in his own right. It was because while he is, they still had plans to grow and change his character.
Other characters may of had plans to
Though another thing is they just wanted them that way forever which is not good for the characters if that was their true intention.
My biggest problem with Sonics friends is...how they basically all became pretty much Sonic, but better.
For example: In Sonic Heroes every speed character is basically just Sonic but with something extra on top of his abilitys.
Amy is Sonic, but she gets to have her hammer abilities.
Espio is Sonic, but he gets all that cool ninja stuff he can do, which makes him quite fun to play actually.
And Shadow...Shadow is just 10 times better in comparison to Sonic in every single game we see him in.
He is equally as fast as Sonic but he just uses chaos powers ALL the time without the need for chaos emeralds.
And I'm gonna be honest:
If you spam your OP stuff all the time without any hesitation it is far less cool in comparison to what it once was.
Since the debut of chaos powers in Sonic Adventure 2, these abilities were special and cool.
But since Shadow just started to spam these chaos control abilities non-stop since 06 WITHOUT an emerald, it's far less cool and far less special.
For example:
In Sonic Forces it's so goofy how they try to convince you that Sonic is the ONLY ONE who is capable to save the world from Doctor Eggman.
But they let you play Shadow in the game and he is EXACTLY the same as Sonic...but they also show you in cutscenes that Shadow STILL just teleports around like it's nothing.
So, why exactly do we even need Sonic for anything?
Shadow is equally as fast as Sonic BUT at the same time, he just abuses chaos powers all the time.
So why exactly is Sonic even the main character anymore? Why exactly are we playing as this weakling?
Same with Silver. Silver is equally as fast as Sonic (not in gameplay, but we can't ignore the cutscenes which present him really OP either), but he gets his psychic abilities on top of that.
Knuckles is roughly equally as fast as Sonic, but he can punch stuff really hard which again...Sonic can't do.
So, if you compare Sonic to any other character in the series, it feels like we are always playing as the most basic of characters.
There is nothing that actually makes Sonic special in any way.
They all run REALLY fast. Is Sonic special because he MAYBE can run a bit faster in comparison to Knuckles or Tails?
Personally, I have a theory:
I think Sonic Team gave Sonic the boost to make him stand out again because they realized...Sonic, in terms of his abilities...is probably the most boring character in the series.
So, they tried to make him stand out more by giving him the ability to just instantly go really fast. In Sonic Generations, they even made that ,,power-up" canon with the ending cutscene.
That's fine I guess, but...well, in Sonic Forces they gave Shadow the ability to boost...and we can see that the custom character can keep up with boosting Sonic without any problem, so....the boost really is also nothing special anymore.
And personally I just hate that. If Sonic is so extremely weak in comparison to any other character, it feels far less cool to actually...play as him.
Because it always feels like Sonic needs to put a lot of effort into achieving stuff which other characters could do in seconds.
There is nothing which makes him stand out except ,,I'm blue dabadedabadei~".
Also, this comment is only about abilities and nothing about personality.
Sonic, in my opinion, is the most appealing character in the franchise if he is characterized like in Black Knight or Secret Rings. So, I do get why we play as Sonic. It's not because of his capabilities but because of his personality.
None of this changes or justifies anything, unfortunately. Sonic being less cool in comparison to his friends is no excuse to reduce the cast into caricatures of themselves and keeping them stagnate/nerfing them outright for the sake of propping Sonic himself up.
@@DLxxx Did I imply anything like that anywhere in my comment? Did I imply that those things you state here are ,,good ideas"?
@@tadaokou4919 No. Nor did **I** imply it was directed at you specifically. I was referring to how this idea relates to the topic of discussion _in general._ I.e. Even in the hypothetical scenario this was true, I don't think that rationale would justify what we ended up with. In other words, I'd still think it was a bad decision on Sonic Team's part even IF they were trying to make Sonic seem more interesting. It's really as simple as that.
Yeah, Shadow has more main character potential than Sonic and when he was an integral part of the games and stories, that’s what happened. Sonic isn’t interesting when you have Shadow so they nerfed and regressed him.
@@naniyotaka In terms of his capabilities, I agree. In terms of personality, I disagree. Because Shadows character arc is over + static characters like Sonic are far more fitting to be main characters.
Speaking of the comics, I know this might get contorversial but I like the archie comics more than IDW because it felt like more stuff was going on, expanded the sonic universe and the characters to new terretories we haven't seen before and also more animal varieties that felt unique with the sonic universe. With the IDW characters sure they have their own arcs but it feels like they haven't done much with them after that and that the fall back a bit with their character (some of them).
But otherwise great video and hopefully Sega and sonic team changes it but it's unlikely to happen
Nah Archie Shadow was peak characterization and was the natural progression of his character post-Sonic 06, being a hero that truly cares about others, wouldn't hesitate to call Team Dark his friends/comrades and is willing to accept jobs/tasks that Sonic wouldn't do thus acting as a foil to the blue blur while being his own character with his own set of morals/values (showing that multiple MCs can coexist in the same world).
It's a shame Sega and Sonic Team felt the need to assassinate his characterization and personality in order to prevent him from being as "cool" as Sonic while nerfing him to enforce the status-quo that ONLY Sonic can defeat Dr Eggman and save the world, what a load of BS and you wonder why current writers are so reluctant to use Shadow in their stories (they have to deal with stupid Sega restrictions while facing inevitable fan backlash on why Shadow is a jerk and/or why Team Dark is barely a thing anymore). Shadow isn't even "allowed" to be a hero anymore, he is either an anti-hero or antagonist and that's it (yet more proof fans treat Sonic characters better then Sonic Team/Sega).
If this IS controversial, is shouldn't be. The Archie comics had better world building and character writing than the creatively restricted IDW comic line. The clearest example can be shown after the reboot. Even when Archie was forced to be more in line with the game universe than its own concepts, it still had WAY more freedom to take the established elements from the games and expand upon them in interesting ways.
@@DLxxx Well I got into an argument with someone who was that Archie is bad and that they're tired that people pretend that it isn't, and I said that in the latest issues of Idw tangle the lemur named the new team for an operation the diamond cutter which is whispers the wolfs old team that died because of the shadow androids and she KNEW that in the spin off comic that the team and the name was very important to her and she just said it so thar they could add some petty drama which is just stupid but they defended it by saying "oh tangle is supposed to have a childlike characteristic" which doesn't make sense since we have youbger characters acting way more mature for their age than her
@DLxxx Archie has Sonic fight under a monarchy and get slapped around by Sally. He's pretty much no more accurate to the character than the movie Sonic is.
Its weird that in nearly every sonic game a new character is introduced. Even in the spinoffs.
Sonic had this problem in the 2000s, I see that with Flynn, it’s happening again.
@@thefastcommenter7774 he introduced like 3 new characters in frontiers lol.
The only exceptions I can think of in the main series are Heroes and Generations (if we discount the Time Eater).
@@njsynthesis Heroes introduced like 3 new Metal Sonic designs if that counts. Also the Chaotix were rebooted.
By the way most exceptions to what I pointed out are the old often handheld spinoffs. Like Sonic advance and Pocket adventure.
Also of course all the collections dont count.
Yeah, Sega not realizing that perhaps the most popular aspect of the Sonic series is its characters is incredibly bizarre. I know you didn't like TMOSTH that much, but part of the reason a lot of people liked it was that the characters were allowed to be there and talk and stuff. Especially since most of the game is spent with these characters not being tied to Sonic.
Yes but it really didn’t do anything for the characters.
They pretend with the “head cannon” aspect but they basically mess with your brain in a way. I don’t like that.
I think they do, they made an OC creator in Sonic Forces, they just, don't know how to capitalize on the characters, or is afraid to do so.
Ok this is a video I wanted to see in a long time, thank you man
Also I blame the lack of proper continuity in the games, giving the idea that every game is separated so the characters start at the first stage in every entry
I do agree that the characters can grow more but I also think there's a limit to how far a character can evolve or change until they become unrecognisable.
That's why I'm mostly okay with a character like Shadow continuing to struggle with his own autonomy. Not that he goes back to having no agency but, his resolve to follow his own path being constantly tested in different ways. It's a cool way to develop his personality. Small developments like his relationship with Rouge & Omega would still be welcomed though.
Or, like you said, developing Sonic & Amy's relationship, or Silver growth, etc. Giving them active roles in stories would also help.
It's honestly down to whether SEGA/Sonic Team is willing to allow their characters to be real characters again.
I can certainly see that Ian is trying to make this happen and I kind of hope he stays writing for games since even if maybe he doesn't get the Eastern style of story-telling, he at least has shown a profound understanding and deep-hearted care for the Sonic franchise as a whole.
I'm perfectly understanding of how the character moments in Frontiers aren't exactly up to your standards, but this is more or less a repeat of how he handled taking charge in Archie hot off the Ken Penders era, and there he was certainly more free to give the mainline characters room to be actual characters along-side the comic originals compared to now where he has to walk on eggshells for simple things like - god forbid - having Shadow be a competent fighter (I remember hearing about how Flynn was openly frustrated about Shadow being forced to go down like a complete chump in the Metal Virus story arc).
At least he was allowed to have Shadow NOT be a chao-bullying asshole in IDW; if he was forced to have the TSR promotional cartoons' version of Shadow, I'd hate to see where things would be now...
Metal Sonic is my favorite character out of the Sonic Cast because of his theme of being a doppelganger is flawless, but besides from heros or the comics, there haven't really been a lot to grow on that. Dude is badass but damn I want him to have a character arc.
I do disagree with you somewhat when it comes to Frontiers, at least when it comes to Sage and Tails character and Knuckles too. The only character I have a problem with now is Amy, despite her being my favorite. I feel out of everything you addressed, Amy, Rouge, Shadow, Silver and Blaze got it the worse, or poor Cream as well, since Cream's development after Generations can be sumned up as 'who?" my issue in regard to Amy is that her character change was due to a bigger problem, she didn't change because she naturally came into her own, she did so because Sega 180 her character for the sole purpose of opeasing fans who disliked her, which is not how you improve a character in writing. In so many reviews I see people say Amy has improved, but never really see anybody describe who she is as a character, at least when she was a fangirl, just saying she was a fangirl was describing a character, the fact all anybody can say about her character nowadays is 'she isn't obsessed with Sonic anymore' just means they are proving Amy has no character, since she doesn't have features, they can describe. Nowadays, aside from Sonic Prime and IDW she's just a boringly competent plain jane. She's basically Sega's version of a modern-day Disney protagonist, where they take criticism of what they think is wrong with the character, remove that character then give them a 180 for the sake of an agenda. Which is how developers change characters, it's like if Nintendo decided to change Princess Peach from a Damsel in Distress to a badass woman who needs no man while her personality is stripped away just for the purpose to avoid her being a damsel, when all they need to do is deemphasize that aspect of her.
For me it feels rather sexist because it is saying that a way to fix a female character is to strip them entirely of their character, when growth would be the more plausible solution. Frontiers Amy isn't bad, since the DLC may clear up a lot of the missteps, but right now she leaves a bad taste for me and doesn't feel like a character of natural change, just one who changed for the sake of pleasing others. And this is painfully obvious in how she's written, where now her only defining characteristic is that she's female. She literally lacks any traits or character flaws, since I don't think I've seen an instance where she has displayed any flaws, at least Frontiers addresses Tails and Knuckles flaws.
I also find fans in general just overcriticize or react to everything the character did just to make it seem worse than it was, of course she had moments of being written badly, but honestly those instances were less than how often she wasn't. Or the fact people saw her temper as a bad thing, which to me fits this strange agenda people have where female characters having tempers leads to SJW rants about men and women dynamics. When how Amy's anger wasn't used to portray that. It baffled me more how Heroes was often used as the catalyst for saying she was bad, when Heroes Amy is grossly exaggerated, and the scene people point to isn't even what is actually happening. Especially when Sonic Battle is just her crush on Sonic from Heroes done worse and how anyone can say Heroes is worse Amy when Free Riders Amy exists, who is literally just Heroes Amy with the worst attributes amplified, she feels like the amalgamation of everything people disliked about her, as if a detractor wrote her based off of that in that game.
When it comes to Rouge, I feel like her nature to tease people and more nuanced interactions with Team Dark and Knuckles are gone, since in Team Dark's case it feels like they are trying to make them less of a team and with Knuckles they have nothing relatable other than they can hunt jewels, unlike before where their competitive edge as treasure hunters caused them to butt heads. I miss the more teasing Rouge who could switch up her motives toward people depending on circumstance but wasn't totally evil. Or how Cream's entire character development just because a question mark, which is now a total summary of her character. They also seem to be stripping away Shadow's purpose too, since when he isn't being a parody of a edgy schoolyard bully he's just a loner with no friends, they literally can't decide who he is and I feel the only thing they rely on is his popularity. And Blaze needs to have more screentime again.
Well I agree with your frustration about female characters not being feminine anymore. Pariah mentioned in the video that Sonic SHOULD be a static character, which I agree with, but I also think other core characters should also all be static to some extent or else they'll lose what defines them.
I don't want Eggman to become Eggdad and be empathetic and stop being a villain, I don't want Amy to stop chasing Sonic and I don't want Knuckles to not guard the Master Emerald.
At the same time, there is very clearly an agenda in place whenever Ian is writing. Ian having Eggman worrying about Sage's pronouns in Frontiers or creating lesbian OCs in the comics are clear examples of this. So it's not hard to see why Amy saying she's no longer going to put Sonic as her number 1 priority, and is willing to leave him for her own adventures is part of an agenda since it's completely reverting the power dynamic in the relationship. Now instead of Sonic holding all the power on deciding whether he wants to accept Amy or not, it's going to put Sonic in a position where he isn't being chased- meaning he doesn't have deciding power anymore. OR, Sonic would need to be the one having to chase Amy- which I think is what Ian's ultimately aiming for and which also removes the power Sonic has over Amy. Power that Sonic, as the male, SHOULD naturally have over Amy, the female.
Either way, there isn't a logical path you could develop Amy's words in Frontiers that doesn't lead to either completely ending their relationship or flat out inverts it. And breaking up natural family structure, bonds and relationships is in line with the agenda in question so it's not unreasonable to point it out. One of the steps to that is precisely removing each element from their role. The male is to not act manly, the female is to not act femininely and so on as it's seemingly being done with the Sonic and Amy dynamic.
@@TheBlueSpikes Well, let me tell you it’s boring seeing Amy chasing Sonic forever. Obsession isn’t healthy so Amy getting out of it is a good thing. There are more things to do in this world than being obsessed over one person. Sadly, we never actually see this change in an actual character arc… If Amy if defiend by her obsession then she isn’t a character, she is a vessel for the idea of obsession and nothing more. Sonic has no power over Amy, if Amy wants to be healthy she has the power to do so, just make it a character arc. No women should be obsessed over a man, neither should men be obsessed over a woman, it’s seriously unhealthy for both sides.
Did Knuckels ever have an issue guarding the Master Emerald besides feeling lonely? If his core problem is loneliness, then a story can form around that but being the guardian of the ME isn’t really a character trait… it’s his job which he should keep doing if he wants to. If Sega wants him in a story, then have the story on Angel Island so he can get involved or they should let Knuckels have a power that allows him to bring the ME with himself on his adventures. I hate that he is leaving his post all the time then he talk about his duty which he clearly abandons in every game.
What’s so bad about lesbian OCs? I don’t see why that is such a big issue as long as we have hetero coupels too.
On the other hand Eggman being a dad is so out of character for him, jesus I hate it. If he is capable of this kind of emotinal connection then he outright abuses Metal Sonic who is just as intelligent as Sage… He either cares about his creations or he doesn’t, pick one and run with it but him caring about Sage is OOC if he doesn’t care about his other robots.
@@TheBlueSpikes (I can’t reply to your comment directly because YT censorship) That’s not her defining feature… It’s like saying Shadow’s defining feature is brooding in a corner, yet Shadow is so much more than that. Amy can have a crush on Sonic, all I care, but when she is all about having an obsessive crush, that’s a 1 dimensional boring ass character.
It’s been proven than gayness is not a mental illness but sure buddy, gay animals in nature also have mental illness I’m pretty sure that’s not genetics… yeah very convincing. But even if let’s say it is a mental illness (so just rolling with your world view here), how can Shadow exist in Sonic when he clearly has mental illness, aka PTSD/amnesia?
@@naniyotaka did his other comment get deleted?
@@naniyotaka While I agree, the point wasn't she should go back to who she is, but rather build up to the conclusion she got to now in Frontiers. Have Amy start out as obsessed, then as each game passes her affections go from aggressive to affectionate to calm, which would also lead to Amy wanting to balance Sonic with her other motives. Even a change in the dynamic , where after coming to the realization he is comfortable around her decides yeah he could have a relationship but doesn't want to because of who he is. Having built up to Amy's shift would've been a lot better
Imagine if Silver or Team Chaotix got their own games.
Sad thing is this did happen with some characters in Sonic x! Chris going through emotions about Sonic leaving is actually great and learned to accept Sonic leaving, Amy had a mini arc and learned that instead of stalking sonic she could be a hero to, Tails and his relationship with Cosmo in season 3, basically being a mentor to her and being a ship leader which also helps Cosmo herself grow to. Both heroes had to make hard decisions including Tails having to sacrifice her. To the point where Tails lost belief in Sonic, and not sure how he grew from that if he did, it may be a major undercooked character arc if it’s not a reset like everyone thinks. Anyway, He’s brave enough to believe in his abilities to do them from his previous arcs so now he learns to go forward with his own decisions. The sad things almost all these arc have been reconned in some way at the end of their story arc. (Except for Chris & Cosmo and maybe Tails (most think that Tails just resets at the end but not sure if that’s true or not.))
What do you think Pariah695?
Also remember Yuji Naka had evolvement with Sonic x so may be why character arcs exist. Guessing they planned to make these arcs happen in a game so they made them be reconned. Maybe I should word it better, be non cannon in the games unless they happen in game univurse.
Sonic X isn’t canon to the games.
@@thefastcommenter7774 I know
I just wanted to show what the games could of been.
I think going forward having a small but rotating cast of characters for future games is ideal. Make the characters present have more...presence in the narrative and highlight something they could work on.
Really wish we had a sonic show that took all of the classic and modern game's stories, and picked out the best parts to create one consistent, well written story. It's something that would be great for new fans who want to get into sonic and learn about the characters, AND something that would great for older fans who want see MORE of their favorite characters doing cool things.
Starting in the classic stories of Sonic 2 and 3 to evolving to more complex stories of SA1 and 2. The show would have a variety of different tones but they could all work well if done right(avatar: the last Airbender for example has both lighthearted and serious moments). One of the advantages of a long running show, compared to something like a 2 hour videogame or movie, is that there is more time to spend with the characters. There could be spotlight stories where we focus on a single characters and get to know them better.
Many people attempt to make sense of the beast that is sonic game lore, but If you really look at it there are so many inconsistencies between games. Thats why I think a sonic show that adapts the stories from the games into a newer more focused story could work.
I Know that this isn't very likely to happen but I've just been thinking about it for awhile and wanted to type it out.
No hate to Sonic Prime, but i feel like Sonic should have an animated show that explores a good chunk of his lore and elements, not just the basics "sonic, tails, knuckles, amy + whoever is the new 5th main character + shadow appearing sometimes + eggman + 2 robot assistants" (sonic prime, sonic x, sonic boom all used this formula, only difference is that sonic x also added chris) there's so much that can be explored, a lot of older characters like fang, mighty, metal knuckles, honey the cat, marine, etc... could be explored, there's so many locations, in the animated shows they usually only have green hill and angel island, there's so much more, there's hilltop from sonic 2, casino night from sonic 2, mushrom hill from sonic 3 and knuckles, hell, even the master system games have bridge hill and jungle zone, which would be great locations, there's a lot to use, and the animated shows we had until now barely explored it.
Pariah is _really_ procrastinating having to talk about the story of the Western-written Sonic games... XD
Hello, Pariah. I'v watched some of your videos and I really like them, you share some points of view that I hadn't had, and now I watch SA1 and SA2 with other fricking eyes. Thank you so much also for doing the 'Definitive version of each Sonic game' video.
Before I leave, I want to hear your opinion about the music in Sonic games. I'm in love with the music in Sonic games, and I want to hear your favourite ones, or what make them so good, or whathever other thing. But I really want to hear you talking about that. You made some of my rough days more happy because of your videos. Tysm, bye.
Thank you very much. I appreciate the kind words, and I'm happy to hear you enjoy my videos that much.
I don't have much to say about the music in Sonic that anyone else can't tell you. It's almost always excellent. I'm not much of a music person, so I can't say too much, which is why I've not really talked about it in my videos.
What a coincidence, I've finished watching your '06 story video and this video popped up. I still believe Sonic support characters being nothingburgers/afterthoughts (particularly after the first half of the 2000s) is a product of Sega pushing Sonic team for results over quality assurance. Apparently they never have enough time to put together a great story that bonds perfectly with the gameplay.
It's a real shame that it has to be this way, though at least the franchise is beginning to flourish towards a better direction now if the positive reception towards the movies, the series and Frontiers is anything to go by.
you’re definitely right, i would definitely like a video with your expanded thoughts on frontiers through this lens. because they definitely tried to go in this direction to some degree
Sonic's friends in Frontiers don't have any big character arcs, but it seems like the story of this game was written the way it was to allow them to happen in future titles (hopefully)
Maybe. But here's a crazy idea. What if instead of alluding that in the future the characters might have more substantial stories, that just happened in Frontiers?
@@Pariah6950 I blame SEGA for not giving Sonic Team enough budget to hire appropriate amount of people to work on a true AAA game.
Maybe after the positive reception of Frontiers, the 2 movies, and Sonic Prime, they will finally see the potential in the franchise again
@@Pariah6950 I’m pretty sure that didn’t happen
@@Pariah6950 Actually, not pretty sure, it didn’t happen.
It's funny you mention Mario characters being just caricatures, considering that the Mario RPGs actually do a great job at adding depth to existing characters and creating cool arcs with new characters, even if there's no progress from game to game (mostly because the characters from the previous games don't show up in later entries with any plot significance, and every new game is a new setting, with a new story and new characters)
@breadandcircuses8127 Bro it isn't The Sopranos level writing
But say a character like Bowser, in the mainline games he's just evil dude that kidnaps the princess and something related to the game's main mechanic, in Super Paper Mario and in the Mario & Luigi games, he actually has a personality, has his way of doing things, with reasoning behind them, same thing for Peach, especially in Super Mario RPG
And the original characters of the RPGs are much more interesting as well, everyone remembers Geno, but I'll never forget Tippi and Count Bleck's story
@@SorrelhasDefine “depth.”
"Let's talk about Sonic's friends."
Shows Metal Sonic, Shadow and Jet.
I was under the assumption that the Sonic games were all different continuities. Like it would make sense that some characters regress because those aren’t the same versions of them.
With the obvious exception of 06, every game is canon to one another.
@@silverboltscrapper Not every single one, some are not canon like Sonic Chronicles, Master System version of Sonic 1 and 2, Sonic Labirith, the educational arcade games, some spin-offs, etc...
@@banjo9158 To be fair, all of those are the more obscure games that don't usually come to mind when talking about game continuity.
@@silverboltscrapper Sonic Chronicles kinda is, but, it's being stated to death how that game is not canon, Sega REALLY don't want to acknowledge that game.
Honestly yeah, the characters are stagnant to a degree, if they aren't reverted... Heck, this staticness and misunderstanding of character is depressing to a degree.
If there's one thing I would definitely wanna see, it's something that was done in another franchise with Azure Striker Gunvolt. Knowing that their main character couldn't be used every game (And with positive feedback from the fanbase with the gameplay of another character), they actually made a dedicated spin-off for that character but labeled it the "Gunvolt Chronicles" (And then the story was some weird timeline alternative dimension stuff but that's not the point)
I think Sega could definitely do something like the "Sonic Chronicles" (No, not the RPG) where the other characters can be focused on and they can be explored with their arcs, but Sonic Team's last attempt was Shadow the Hedgehog and then they were mostly scared of doing this kind of stuff for other characters again (I just want a Blaze and Silver solo game...)
Yeah, this should be the way instead of forcing them into Sonic adventures. We could have a spin off with Team Dark, Blaze’s dimension, etc. They don’t even have to be platformers, they can have their own genres, just keep them consistent and have quality.
From Ian Flynn's statements, there are very very strict guidelines put in place for the way you can personify these characters. I definitely do believe SEGA and/or Sonic Team is trying so hard to keep these characters fundamentally static but i cant for the life of me understand how this helps sales or anything.
IDK if it's about sales per se; I think it's moreso they caved to all the critics meme-ing on the characters and reducing them to one-note caricatures, assumed that was what people truly wanted from the series, and then ran with it.
They're trying to copy Nintendo sucess with Mario.
Critics and gamers hate for Sonic's friends started way earlier as Sonic 2 when Tails was introduced, I remember people saying: ''Why they added that fox, Sonic is supposed to run fast and it'll just slow down him, he can't keep up the pace look at how bad his A.I is and how many times dies.''
Sonic has been comfortable with Amy since lost world. In one of the Team Sonic Racing games, he went to a pinic with her. In Frontiers, a triggered or unused line from Sonic said that he should'v made up his mind about Amy sooner. I don't know about Knuckles and Rouge.
Unlike Mario Sonic is a very Story Driven series. Though Mario characters may be able to remain stagnant, Sonic characters shouldn't.
I like Frontiers' arcs but they're not exactly even arcs, just the setup for some arcs, but I'm excited to see where they'll go.
As for Silver, it'd be cool if he decided to just stay in the past, that would be interesting development.
Tbh I feel like we'll ever get to see the type of writing you're looking for simply because I see to many people over praise Sonic Frontiers way of handling it. I just hope they wont just listen to the satisfies Sonic fans and settle for the way things are and actualy try to handle things better.
Finally someone else agrees with me.
literally better then most portrayals of the characters and finally have decent dialogue instead of cartoon crap that old games did.
@@Blanktester685 I mean I actually liked it to a degree
If they kept the dialogue and personality growth for the characters in the shonan story telling correctly, we could of got the character development of their personalities correct, while also having the darker story telling fans want. Just my opinion though.
Sonic Forces tried this but failed badly.
I'm happy that in Frontiers they kinda go back to character arcs and go back to the roots of their storylines and address the roots of the characters themselves
Man, that was a very excellent video! A lot of things I agree with. Great job dude!
I do have to say, I think Frontiers did an okay job with the character arcs it had for Amy, Knuckles, and Tails. It did the job it had set out to do: "set up" characters for an arc in the future, rather than giving them a "development" straight up. I mean look at it, everyone had this moment of "I've been doing things wrongly, I should change the way I look at and do things".
For Amy, it is how she... well... thinks for herself and tries to do something at least rather than being either the literal caricature that game grumps makes her out to be, or literally just exists for the sake of exposition dump, like in Lost World and Forces. Now idk what can be done with that "I want to share that love with the whole world" quote, but it does feel like a step in the right direction for her.
For Knuckles, they did the most simple and obvious thing: remind the dude who he is! Man is literally the last member of his kind and is tasked to protect the most powerful and dangerous power source on the planet, yet he is just chilling, you know. Just hanging out, getting abducted by a time-devouring monster, fucking around with some tiny animals for the lols, and leading a goddamn "rebel" force! Frontiers just reminded this guy of his whole identity, responsibilities, and worries. Of course, it did set him up to once again, abandon those very duties for the billionth time, but it does feel more natural as opposed to him just hanging out with Tails on the back of Tornado 2 for no real reason in Heros or just being the rebellion leader for some unholy reason in Forces. Also, he was no longer a dumb muscle brick who was there for the sole purpose of visual gags and comic relief, so that is already a big step ahead.
And lastly, Tails. His whole thing was just an elaborate damage control after the disaster that was Forces' Tails. You know, him lamenting the fact that he pussied out all like that and how he straight up called himself "inconsistent". Then they teased the whole Tails' own adventure thing, which if they do end up actually doing it like a separate game about Tails, that would be just golden!
Then again, there is the possibility that they might throw it all out of the window for god knows why and make Sonic Forces 2, but let's just hope that doesn't become the case. We got pretty good setups out of Frontiers and if Sega continues down the path it went with it and potentially improves along the way as well, we are in for a very good-looking story coming up in the future!
"I want Sonic to become comfortable around Amy..."
.....
That's a character arc in itself, boy. You don’t want that.
Character progression and storytelling is what made the adventur era games so endearing to me: yes I love the gameplay, especially the multiplayer, but the stories of the old were character driven.
This is honestly why I love frontier so much; yes, it appears that they are rebooting everyone's character arcs, but they seem to also be building on that thanks to Ian Flynn.
And as for Sonic, I honestly would not mind if he got out of his static status and Flynn or whoever is writing decided to give him a good development arc.
6:27 I’m in the same boat.
13:01 I think Metal Sonic’s existential crisis could be reserved for a finale where maybe we find out Metal is actually a roboticized Sonic from an alternate timeline, hence why he believes he’s the real Sonic.
With Ian Flynn as the new writer for the games
I don't think the characters will be static anymore
Idk to be honest
They still feel forced in their same roles half the time.
Though maybe your right sense Murder of Sonic wasn’t even made by Flynn though he did help.
Kids new to the series don't even get the basic character arcs that were in the games 20 years ago, unless Sega just expects kids to break out a GameCube and catch up.
i think i found the cultprit, there's a video entitled "Why isn't Sega overprotecting of it's intellectual property?" that kinda explains why they allow sonic fan content to exist, but also the reason of why the quality of recent official sonic games are questionable
Indeed, it explains why despite its critical and financial success why we won't be getting a Maina sequel in the foreseeable future.
Insulting Wario is just one step too far. He has actual character and character arcs in his own games, that aren't represented well in the spinoffs and crossover games.
For shame my suboptimal sir.
Can’t tell if ya are Meming or not, but if not I would like an example. As someone who played quite a bit of Warioware, it’s hard to name an example exactly.
@Hidden Flare I meant the Wario land games but he does at least have friends and a successful business in Wario ware it shows he isn't all bark he can actually be a functional human being. He's just a weirdo which is his true defining trait and the defining trait of all of his games.
You know what after watching his video my hot take still stands and that as is,
The last time Sonic's friends were relevant at anything was Sonic 06
Not all of them. Tails and Knuckles are completely pointless in that game.
@@Pariah6950 okay looking back at Sonic 06 I can agree with you on knuckles but tails had SOME (and I'm saying that lightly) relevance in the game
It’s funny you mention the Mario characters. I’ve been thinking lately that the Sonic crew is just a badass version of Mickey Mouse characters, both in design and personality.
i love Knuckles but man i hate how they basically write him as "dumb jackass who punches things really hard". for crying out loud he's the guardian of the Master Emerald and Angel Island not the Hulk!
While disrespecting the cultural origins of his design and lore, he is the last existing member of an ancient tribe that were genocided by a mutated alien water deity (yes this is canon now) for harming the Chao's and trying to misuse the Emeralds, now Knuckles is forced to atone for the sins of his ancestors by guarding the Master Emerald.
Yet for several years most only knew him for being a short-tempered jock stereotype while possibly having an inferiority complex to sonic and ofc awful memes. What a shame... :/
Don't even get me started on Shadow lol!
Seems like, nowadays, a character can only have an arc when they're introduced. At this rate, we're gonna need a lot of new characters.
The Murder of Sonic was a step in the right direction, in this regard.
Ehhh, it was fine but I still feel like some character roles were playing it safe.
You can blame a lot of this on the fan response to 06. Sega took the complaints about "Sonic having too many friends" to heart and started to make the games mostly focus on just Sonic. You know, instead of the actual problem which was poor management.
I totally agree with you, when I was watching something related to Sonic cast (reading IDW comics, hearing character analysis videos), I was starting getting boried of the characters, and I didn't understand why, until I saw this video. IDW comics are awesome and that but honestly I was waiting a lil more, I feel the writers want to put the character into that caricature direction as you said, don't get me wrong their personalities are so well expressed and kinda mature sometimes but they still feel... static. Tails is courage and smart here, but that's all, or Amy, she's brave and has great leadership (which I found kinda odd for her personality but well) but again, that's all, you'll see that same personalities forever in the comics, yeah there will have some new perosnality details but still. What I really wanted to see are more arcs. Something that Archie comics made it so great (I loved the Knuckles lore so much, is it wasn't by the bad writers...). Imagine, for example, they could explain why Tails is the only one who manipulates weapons (aside of shadow) and rings, what makes him so special, what exactly has in his brain... Amy Rose would be explaining her trauma with Metal Sonic after the SonicCD events (Really, I saw that Arc of Metal kidnapping her TOTALLY underrated), showing some moments of her having depression, letting other reason of why she wants to be more intependent, or explains her skill about reading the future and why she's the only one who can change the minds of villains (SA1 and SA2 floks). With Knuckles, they can show him expanding more his island and he searching defenses to his island, converting it some kind of big fortress, and why not, add more EMERALDS that he needs to take care on, discovering more islands, more secrets of his past and his island continue progressing and progressing.... until it converts into a f*cking planet, and he also would meet some other friends but in form of ghosts (something like Tikal)... Yeah I'm starting to sound ridicolous but the point is, can't you see all the potencial Sonic characters have? Just leave your imagination and passion expand. Heck I can even say Sonic could have an anime to a +12 public.
I may have a crack theory on why the characters have been made to have a status quo to never be changed.
I believe the reason why SEGA doesn't do character arcs anymore is because they now are far too scared of the reactions of the fandom. Ever since "Shadow the Hedgehog" and "Sonic 2006" SEGA has been constantly bullied by the fans saying that things are too edgy or that all the series should be is Sonic vs Eggman like it was in Sonic 1 and 2, that "Sonic's stupid friends" and stories that try to be deep or at least try to say something that is even slightly removed from Sonic vs Eggman is bad.
The 2000s was considered the "dark Age of Sonic" and the fandom bullied SEGA all the time even though they put all their hearts in making those stories, they were not very good at writing but they still tried hard and that's how we got stories like Gamma and arcs like those for Amy, Tails, Shadow and more, but because the games unfortunately came out very badly people started to find even the slightest problem gigantic and so we came to the point were we had things like "Sonic was never good" or "Sonic had rough transition to 3D".
When Sonic Colors came out the fans applauded the game for giving us back the classic Sonic vs Eggman stories with no magic, no "stupid friends" and no edgyness (a.k.a. characters going through arcs). Being bullied for trying hard to make good stories and then being praised for writing a bland story with bad comedy must have broken them, saw that that was what people wanted and then gave it to them. Gave it to the until they got sick of it and the gave it some more.
Then let's not forget that on the other side of the fandom the Archie comics were going completely off the rails with crazy stories that took the characters into completely ridiculous directions and the whole thing got out of control, SEGA must have felt the need to protect their property from further damage to its image or it would be dead by now.
In the end, what caused all this was the extreme course correction since SONIC '06 and the Dark Age desperately trying not to repeat the disaster of those games by staying as far away from them as possible. Ironically, the kids that grew up with the Dark Age instead of the classics are those that now praise the stories where SEGA put the most heart into because they feel nostalgic for them and can see the potential those stories have, unlike the fans that grew up with the classics that at the time view those games as a departure from what they were used to.
Kinda like what happend to the Star Wars prequels in a way.
Sorry for the long post.
Yeah... yeah, I feel this. If they wanna write a story they gotta have characters, not just cardboard cutouts.
This "illusion of change" happened with Dragon Ball too and it's so frustrating
I would also mention that the series is very limited on which characters can interact with each other. Most can only have meaningful interactions with their immediate team. For example we know exactly how know exactly how Knuckles thinks of Sonic and Tails but little of his interactions with Shadow. Which is weird for a franchise this old.
I'd say it's worse than even that. Tails and Knuckles have never really interacted without Sonic present. Which sucks. Makes it feel like they're Sonic's friends, but not really friends with each other.
@@Pariah6950 Id say you’re right actually, I’ve also noticed that Charmy and Espio almost never directly talk to each other in the games.
6:06 that shadow render makes me lol out loud
Frontiers third dlc will for sure start that... lets wait and see where does it goes
Tails needs his own 3D plane/mech game. Knuckles should've been had his own treasure hunting/action-adventure franchise. Silver needs a solo 3D platformer & Shadow needs a sequel that focuses on his time as a G.U.N. agent.
Dude! Tails, knuckles and shadow they already had their own games, silver I understand. But tails, knuckles and shadow No.
@@sugamamaproud9810 So?! Make more! What, they aren't allowed to have their own franchises?! Their own adventures?! They can only exist and thrive under Sonic titles?! Hell naw!! I say, take the individual gameplay styles from the Sonic Adventure series & capitalize! Just picture it: A solo Tails game where he builds and repairs robots, plays on foot as well as piloting the Tornado 2.0 in Plane mode & in Mech mode, destroying enemies! For Knuckles, a DMC-style, action/adventure game with polished Treasure Hunting mechanics! Think of the possibilities, Suga mama!!
Tails had like 2 games which flopped, Knuckles had one game which sucked, Silver never needs to have a game, as his abilities and game style sucks, and Shadow had a game which flopped.
@@thefastcommenter7774 So? Sonic literally had more "flop" games than both Tails & Knuckles had combine! Did Sega throw their collective hands up and say "Oh, these Sonic games we made are garbage & there's no point in making more"? No. So why not learn from those mistakes & make better, polished games with new/old ideas with popular Sonic characters like Sega should've down ages ago with Sonic alone? I mean Nintendo did it with Mario characters, right? Donkey Kong, Luigi, Wario, Yoshi; heck, even Toad got a spin-off! If they just took fan-favorite characters, took & added more polished gameplay styles, old &/or new, (ex: Knuckles' Treasure Hunting with DMC style combat) and took their time, I'm sure Sonic Team can come up with a fun, polished game that could be great for new & old fans to play.
Shadow the hedgehog already have a game dude? 🤨
The reason why they havent grown a lot because they want to focus on Sonic
Really hate how storytellers focus on the main character and not giving more spotlight to the allies, like if people like the others than the main character, thry should put the focus on THEM
FORREAL I AGREE WITH YOU
IDW and Prime make characters feel they're a developing character.
Ya know, there’s only so much character development you can do til there’s nothing left to change. If they kept trying to shove in character arcs, those arcs would become less special because they’d be happening often, and would eventually become annoying to fans. I’m a long time fan, and I can’t think of any arcs that would be interesting, and make sense at the same time.
I mean some character main themes hint at character arcs that never happened and they even hint them in the games.
Unless they planned on them to never be resolved, why would they hint them in the first place if they mean nothing.