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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 พ.ย. 2023
- I hope you found this interesting. I certainly did while playing the Mario games. I have a feeling some people might say this is a bit of a stretch. But I don't think so. We know for a fact Sonic Team was looking at Mario for inspiration. And they ended up taking a lot more than maybe most people realize.
A part of me thinks the game design things that I've come to realize here may be obvious to others. It's only through my tunnel vision on speed that I didn't see what was happening, perhaps. Wouldn't be too surprising, considering how many people are ignorant to that aspect of these games. But I hope my breakdown here was at least interesting.
/ pariah695
ko-fi.com/pariah695 - เกม
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Another small thing I realized after making the video. The sign posts in Sonic are probably inspired by the flag poles in Mario. It's almost the exact same idea. The villain is planting these things, claiming all this territory, and the hero takes these claims down. And they're both used to mark the end of the level.
Sonic is just a Mario reference (or shitpost)
I played SMB1 on SNES All Stars and I have to agree with you.
Neither was I a Sonic fan prior to it: but I liked the fast-paced style of SMB1 as well.
Something I loved was playing multiplayer for SMB1 and racing my friends on online emulators.
I strongly recommend to play SMB1 All Stars with a friend and race them in 2-player.
It's fun to see who can beat the game first: so in a way, you're right, Pariah, because the game does support a speedy gameplay in multiplayer (which is basically a race to beat the game).
I am a fan of both Sonic AND Mario. I grew up with both Sonic AND Mario. However, I realise that Sonic only exists because of Mario, because Sega wanted their own mascot to compete against Nintendo. Also, even though I love Sonic and Mario, I still love Sonic even more than Mario because Sonic was a bigger and better part of my childhood than Mario. I always love Sonic no matter what.
The Mario franchise = A man with a moustache fights against a spiky animal
The Sonic franchise = A spiky animal fights against a man with a moustache
But Sonic's sign posts have more of a creative spin to them, since their design feels more like something that'd be in some sort of a Racing format, Fitting for the idea of Sonic racing to the finish line and continuing the race to the next zone, unlike mario who first has to stop and slide all the way down the flagpole to mark it as His. Further expanding the difference between the Two!
I can't imagine the developers of the original Mario games would've added a time limit if leisurely platforming was the only goal. Hell, the time limit in Sonic games, which have a greater emphasis on speed, is more generous at 10 minutes, whereas Mario gives about 2ish minutes per level. Mario's timer also counts in "Mario seconds," which are a bit shorter than normal seconds, and makes it feel like time is moving by more quickly. Compounded with the fact that the timer counts down, it can create a greater sense of urgency.
Meanwhile, Sonic's timer counts up in normal seconds, which indicates that it's merely meant to help the player keep track of their time and improve, but it also has a slight limit to ensure they don't dawdle too much. Granted, Sonic levels are much larger than Mario levels, but I would still say the time limit is pretty generous relative to level size.
Sonic is my comfort franchise, I love learning about how it came to be
@@Sakaki_mp4probably talking about the stories and characters
My comfort franchise is Zelda.
@@kaxcommentssomethingREAL I'd that's the case I agree.
"Sonic is my comfort franchise"
Sonic is my comfort franchise too.
"I love learning about how it came to be"
I love learning about how it came to be too.
I might be wrong, but I’m pretty sure Yuji Naka actually admitted that the mastery with speed in Mario and porting Ghosts and Goblins is what influenced him to make a game like sonic.
You're right, that's exactly it lol.
The idea of momentum in Mario I think was most realized in Mario 3 with the P meter. That was Nintendo's way of subtly encouraging players to think about speed. If you stop to get a powerup then your P meter will lose its charge. And if you have a full P meter then you have abilities you don't have when it's not charged. If you look into Mario 3 speedrunning then you see that most of the challenge for the speedrunner is to try to keep their P charged for as much of the game as possible. This still kinda exists in Mario World with the Cape Feather but they no longer show the P meter. With all the secret exits in Mario World I think that was the point that Nintendo realized they wanted to cultivate a playerbase more focused on exploration than speed and momentum.
i think that the mechanic was fine in concept but it changes mario's movement too much. I still prefer mario 1
I feel like Super Mario World evolved the concept, by having you reach top speed and feeling it without the need of a meter. Although, of couse, that's a more methodical and exploratory game
Mario 3 = Sonic 2
Mario World = Sonic CD
🤔
I bet with the "two playstyles" part, thats probably why you start liking the mario games less as each sequel comes on. Games like Mario usa and later games like world and from what Ive heard wonder all start to lean more and more into the explorative slower playstyle where as sonic always more so emphasized that speed style of play. The "gimmics" you talked about with those mario games in turn are meant more to play into that slower more explorative style since having new gimmics to interact with kind of feeds into a similar kind of appeal as the more exporative style of play. A lot of the appeal for a lot of mario players of both the gimmics and the slower more collective and explorative style of play is that it's more of an appeal to variety and seeing new items, scenarios, and experiences that you kind of sit with and take time with. With a more speedrun focus however those gimmics tend to feel more in the way and annoying since they are intentionally there to distract from the core gameplay loop in order to shake things up and change what the game's doing.
Its why i feel mario wonder is so heavy on the wonder scenes, collecting stuff to progress, and just all the badges, gimmics, and so on. Its also why its kinda become so many people's favorite 2d mario since it's so fixated on that playstyle specifically and I think marios fanbase in general leans way more into that part of marios gameplay loop than in the more speed run, movement flow, momentum focused side of things, unlike say sonic's fanbase which was more marketed to the speed side of things. I bet thats why mario 64 went full on in with that type of play too where as sonic still focused more on linear stages with its 3d adventure games, even more so with adventure 2, in fact. The series priorities up to that point had started to diverge and the two series, while catering to both types of play, were more focused on the opposite ones to the other by that point.
I agree, and I personally think it's a great way to differentiate Mario from Sonic...both platformers but one is best enjoyed methodically while the other is best enjoyed through replayabilty IMO - I will wonder how they'll apply this method in Sonic when Frontiers is very exploration focused, and if they'll return to Rush-style level design again, with more of that level design, rather than Forces.
It's pretty fascinating that you stumbled upon this realisation naturally, since Naka used nearly the exact same "2 games in 1" phrasing to describe the intended gameplay loop for Sonic and especially Nights. The whole point of Sonic 1's design was for players to take it more leisurely at first to amass rings and shields, before eventually *graduating* to blistering speeds once they became more familiar with the levels. Nights is sort of an evolution of this loop: destroying the ideya capsule as fast as possible is "phase 1" gameplay, while exploring every inch of the course to collect stuff is "phase 2", with one play-style instantly transitioning to the other. Sonic CD is particularly fascinating in this context, since it's the only game where that "phase 2" exploration style is the entire point. The robot generator is essentially the goal-post, but because the Past signs and warping spots are absolutely required, the player needs to learn how to interact with the stage as effeciently as possible without necessarily compromising their momentum and flow.
As much as I love Mario games as they are, I'd really love to peak into the alternate timeline where 2D Mario continued to evolve that momentum-oriented design seen in the first few games.
I feel like Super Mario World is probably the perfect 2D Mario game when you take into account these different play styles you mentioned.
It's a game you can play in 3 different ways or so. You can speed through levels and that feels really great. You can explore the levels to find the secret exists and play more levels, which is a great reward. Or you can master the game in such a way that you not only blast through the level design, but also get those sweet secret exists. And through them you can either finish the game really quickly or go for everything, which is rewarding in itself as you see the world map around you changing as you play.
All of that, of course, is an evolution of the warp pipes and whistles from Super Mario Bros 1 and 3 and was later further evolved with Super Mario 64. Even the New Super games follow this direction (the first one in particular, as it was not built around multiplayer). But in my opinion World still did it the best.
heh I feel like mario 3 is better because it has the p meter
@breadandcircuses8127 It's more momentum focused. For super mario world to work you actively have to ignore the overpowered power-ups the game gives you.
9:30 fun fact ‘when yuji naka was playing super Mario bros he didn’t have much time to do so due to work and didn’t have save so he would play it and try to finish it faster and faster and faster with each playthrogh and then….he gets an idea
That thing you were talking about how many people tend to play the explorative style and never play the speedy style of these games
strenghtens your argument on lifes being stupid. Adding lifes to a game could encourage you to play better, but as you mentioned: there are better ways of making the player want to not get hit in these games, such as Sonic's shields or Mario's power-ups, as all of these tend to revolve around the speedy gameplay while still encouraging a bit of exploration: for example, in Mania's green hill there is a wall you can destroy by using the fire shield, and destroying that will grant you some speed shoes that allow you to go faster through the level, and there was a bit of exploration in there trying to get the shield as quickly as you could to get the speed shoes quickly and get a faster time on the level. Or in Mario 3, there would sometimes be pathways really high up in the level that can be only accessed if you gain enough speed by using the tanooki suit which can be gotten through a bit of exploration.
Lifes as a collectible tend to add an unnecessary element of pressure for those un-experienced with the games, the fact that you may end up losing a lot of progress by losing all your lifes often dis-encourages experimentation, and by result, it dis-encourages riskier/faster play.
Yuji Naka did say that him replaying 1-1 in Mario 1 over and over again is why Sonic's speed is a thing when you are reward to keep the speed up. You play the stage over and over again till you can keep your speed up.
You had it entirely right. from what I remember, in an interview, it was actually said that sonic's momentum based platforming was directly inspired by attempts to reach the end of 1-1 as fast as possible in the original mario game
If a player is not cheating and is using the tools the game has provided them, then it's not fair to say that they are not playing the game correctly.
SMB1 also served as the basis for the design philosophy of Donkey Kong Country 1, in the sense of speed and player experience
Actually thanks to your mario video i revisited SMB3 this time ignoring most extra resources and had a blast, like you said here even though i know the game very well i was still farming power ups even though i was capable of just blasting through the game this time with out them
You raise an interesting point. I'm most interested in seeing your take on the non-Mario spinoff platformers. Most Mario fans would declare the focus was always on precision platforming and treating the level design like a "puzzle." What turned you off from post-SMB1 2D Mario was Nintendo's gradual movement towards level design that catered to that type of playstyle. I say that because I have played Yoshi's Island. It's one of my favorite Mario games.
8:44 I never realized it before, but Mario Wonder’s Online Races and Wiggler race challenges resemble that kind of speed based platforming.
I felt that in the newer Mario games Nintendo generally hid collectibles you need to progress, like the Star Coins, to get people to slow down and engage with the levels more. They even eventually removed the level timer.
When they change the incentive towards beating someone else in a race, people take more risks and start skipping item boxes to rush to the end.
I don't think the rings were influenced by Yoshi. The reason is that they were released too close to one another. I initially thought Sonic 1 came first, but I looked it up and Super Mario World came first, but only by 7 months. Rings are just too integral to how Sonic works to have been introduced into development that close to release.
The SNES was a response to the Mega Drive, but I thought it released with Sonic 1 and it hadn't. Sonic took nearly 2 years to come out after the system did.
Actually, the rings apparently were a last-second addition to Sonic 1, as in like 2 weeks before launch, at least according to Yuji Naka.
3 minutes in and you're already stretching what could be considered "a rip off".
Mario does have the capacity for speed, yes, but mario is more focused about the precision of moving around. It's to some degree about the speed but it isn't nearly as concerned at you learning the level, more precisely reacting to said new stuff. But yes, you are correct in saying they share the risk reward of system of surviving versus doing things speedy like, it's just how you approach the levels, particularly the classic sonic games
I recommend trying to play classic Sonic in the strictly exploratory style. See how many lives you can get by the end. I found so many little areas that I had never seen before after decades of playing. For brief moments when finding a secret, I got into the level designers head on why a certain platform/spring/ramp/path was placed where it was. I never understood the design of CD, but exploring for secrets let me find some method to the madness.
he did that alr. he said it sucked for him
I will be honest, I think we're actually sort of opposites when it comes to our preference and taste in games. I much prefer more easygoing take your time sort of games and find it difficult although not impossible to play games that are more your pace with an emphasis on speed and with high challenge. Our brains must be wired different yet similar, and I'm starting to appreciate/respect your take more and more just seeing these games from a different perspective.
I think your last point about Sonic being a branch of Mario is true for the 2D games for all the reasons you mentioned. But I would still love to see a video where you analyze the differences in their approach to 3D as both took on different aspects of their 2D predecessors to build on.
Well, the main difference there is that Sonic at least _tried_ to convert the formula and gameplay style of its 2D titles into 3D (with varying and debatable degrees of success), whereas Mario...basically didn't at all. Mario decided to do a complete shake-up and have an entirely different core gameplay for 3D with 64 ditching almost everything aside from minor elements here and there, basically going back to square one and rethinking things from the ground up for the 3rd dimension. It wouldn't be until 3D Land where Mario's original 2D gameplay style would finally be adapted into the 3rd dimension, after there had been 4 3D games with the completely different new kind of gameplay introduced in 64 (though Galaxy 2 did try to reintroduce some elements of the 2D titles into it). And by different gameplay, no I don't mean the "sandbox vs. linear" thing everyone talks about, that's just a level design philosophy, I'm talking about literally everything else about how the games work and play, and in that regard both Galaxy titles still follow the Mario 64 gameplay (especially Galaxy 1) despite having mostly more linear level design.
Whereas again, Sonic from the start at least attempted to adapt its 2D formula into 3D with Sonic Adventure, many years before Mario would even try the same. So ironically it kinda would in theory make more sense from that perspective to compare Sonic Adventure to Mario 3D Land, even though that feels kinda wrong lol.
it's not wrong if it's setup just like you did here!@@legoboy7107
The problem with Mario 64 is that it’s very difficult to control and the platforming challenge are a bit steep. Also very serious pacing issues.
@@iwanttocomplainthat’s not relevant to where the discussion has gone
@@DakotaCityRagOK then I'll elaborate. Mario 64 took the concept of the 2D game and converted it very faithfully into 3D. The aim of Mario64 is to replicate the 2D experience of fast paced and challenging platforming. I feel the game is not a success however, in that it the controls are too challenging.
Sonic Adventure discarded the concept of a fast paced platform game and instead focused on a slow paced affair (scripted sequences notwithstanding). He aims automatically at enemies, to alleviate the difficulty of controlling and judging distances in a 3D platform game, which is a mechanic I don't feel really fits.
I didn't like either of these games. Mario 64 is just fiddly and frustrating and Sonic Adventure is just a bit shallow in gameplay.
Those are my thoughts. Mario Sunshine seems OK as a game if a bit too easy. The Galaxy games for me seem just OK.
When they made the 3D platform game, they didn't think about whether or not they should, only if they could.
Rayman nails it but it's still a 3D platform game so it's slow and tedious. Mostly window dressing.
In the Mario video, I was surprised to not see any comments about the Mario -> Sonic geneology given the topic was flirted with repeatedly.
Given the time between Sonic 1 and Mario World, it isn't impossible that it influenced it, but I personally find it unlikely. Tho, Naka has stated that the Ring hit system was added relatively later in development.
The level design accommodating speed in the original Mario games, to my recollection was a means of accomodating the fact it ran on continues, lol.
This made it so players who played the game already woulf be able to rush back to the part they were at quickly and feel good about their ability to do so!
Naka took that and made it the main appeal. Put more of a spotlight to it!
Naka literally stated the series was based off mario speedruns
the side stuff of 2D mario may have influenced knuckle's gameplay in SA1
The way you described the risk reward factor of exploring vs. blasting through levels makes me realize why I like Sonic Superstars (the normal difficulty levels). The game has level designs that facilitate a great amount of flow, but the Powerups (the chaos emerald powers) allow you to potentially alleviate difficulty.
But a lot of those powerups don't really make you go faster, they make you feel more safe but using those powers makes you take on a more cautious approach of seeing if going on the upper route is worth it or not when sacrificing time with the powers. I'm kinda glad the level design alleviated the all skill or nothing approach of Classic Sonic games where if you are blind, you're most likely going to wait around a lot or crash into enemies.
Saying "you're playing it wrong" is objectively false. There is no such thing as playing it wrong, people can play how they want (within reason).
The problem with Super Mario Bros is that if you go too fast you will just keep dying.
Also the run button makes controlling him really hard.
@iwanttocomplain it's a different story if you got enough skill
@@iwanttocomplain Speedrunners would beg to differ. Sounds like a skill issue.
@@lasercraft32 it wasn't fun to me.
2 thoughts
1- Exploration works in Sonic if you REALLY want to get the chaos emeralds as early as possible. S3&K, I can usually get all seven before finishing Hydrocity Zone, and all I have to do is take the time to find the giant rings.
2- I've said it before, but Sonic 2 has a pitfall that gets me every time. Even if I know it's coming, I fall into the pit as Super Sonic, and it's too deep to jump out of. All I can do is let the rings run out.
I’m glad the two fan bases can coexist enough for your last statement to not spark an argument.
They’re both platformers starring corporate mascots wearing white gloves
20:20 Weirdly enough, I think this discussion extends to other genre of games with some sort of power-up mechanic. Like in Elden Ring or Zelda: BOTW/TOTK, all of the skilled players at the game have almost no reason to explore any of the side areas in world since they can get through all of the challenges with just pure skill, but for those less skilled, they can explore you can find items to make things easier. I think there's more games like this, but that's what I can think of at the top of my head.
I think another reason why it's hard to switch between playstyles is because the level design doesn't always make both playstyles fun. For instance, Sonic 2 is a game that makes going fast and learning the level design really fun intrinsically, however going slow in that game feels pretty shitty because it feels like all the fun movement mechanics just don't exist when you're going slow. I think this also can apply to Mario (for you at least) the movement when you're going slow isn't engaging because there isn't anything fun happening movement wise. Although in Mario's case I think the lackluster movement options play a part in this while with sonic I think it's the lack of geometry that can be fun going slow on. This is why I am personally a big fan of level gimmicks because I think they can make slower movement more fun like the bouncy ball things in studiopolis or the jelly in mania's chemical plant. This is likely a reason I love Sonic cd so much because it encourages me to go slow, and it makes going slow engaging by making you look around for the generators and thinking about using the level design to travel to the past. I also believe this is why the wonder seed gimmick was employed into Mario Wonder, because it makes going slow also interesting. Now most of what I said mostly applies to the slower playstyle but that's because I think the faster playstyle doesn't really require level gimmicks however, they can still make use of them and, besides, going faster is just inherently more fun due to the dopamine rush of the speed and of completing the challenge of going faster.
23:16 I think you'll really like the hot foot it badge or whatever it's called in mario wonder then. TLDR When you unlock it in a secret level, you're forced to RUN and even get a mid air coyote time jump so levels play completely differently. can't stop, if you ground poun d, when you land, you continue in the direction you're holding.
I'd absolutely love to see a 3D Sonic/Mario comparison :)
also the insta shield literally is so good to me, it literally became the way I play sonic.
This video actually just sums up how and why Mario and Sonic should just do a crossover platformer already lol
I completely agree with you about exploration in Sonic. I never understood it because i couldnt care less about the elemental shields or whatever. But the thing that i think sets Sonic apart from other platformers is how speed affects the process of exploring. Like building up enough speed to jump off a slope to reach a high ledge that would never have been accessable without building up that speed. Mario's speed for example doesnt have as much of an emphasised affect on his jump height or distance so the exploration feels much more binary while Sonic feels much more open. Its just a shame that none of the "collectables" in 2D Sonic are worth anything to me. Apart from CD. I love CD. Its really tough to describe but I hope I did an adequate job. Someone else that understands may be able to help me lmao
Sort of agree, sort of disagree, in Mario, speed doesn't have as much an effect on mario's mobility as it does in sonic (and even then, the effect it has in sonic is determined by the level design itself, not the player's control, which is another reason why sonic feels more dynamic), however, it does when you involve certain powerups
Super leaf and cape feather great you flight, and the blue shell is literally just Sonic's ball state, but if you're moving at max speed, you don't slow down over time. Those are powerups that DO actually significantly change mario's abilities while going fast. Nagging feeling there's something above you? Find a spot to get enough speed without leaving the ground so you can get p-speed and fly. Wanna barrel through a level but there's enemies everywhere? Find a spot where you *can* get speed so you can duck into your shell and kill them all.
The difference, however, is that speed influencing Sonic's abilities is a natural thing, ingrained into his moveset, and while in Mario, it kind of is a thing there as well (higher jumps, and in most games since 64 you can triple jump for even MORE height, or even diving in 64 to go even faster, which also serves as a way to grab things rather than slowing down and punching at them with no range), with the 2D marios, you first have to go out of your way to get those powerups so you can do that. Interesting stuff
Didn't think about it like that. Very good point. I love that there are 2 very different ways of influencing the player's decision making when it comes to exploration through the game design. I prefer Sonic's more integrated move set, like you said, but Mario's is an equally valid method of doing exploration. We are blessed to have 2 unbelievably well designed series like this side by side.
@@highlight1849 you said it
23:22 It’s coming…
22:35 funny enough this is exactly what Spark 2 and 3 do with the score and speed medals
Sadly, Spark 3 completely butchered that focus of time and exploration balance because the time requirement was completely removed, so you're just doing stuff until the level is over. I really don't know why Lake removed the time requirement for the score medals.
@@nuggets283 Yeah irrc he changed it because in Spark 2 the timer was 5 minutes no matter the stage. Lake definitely over corrected though. Still the score medals get you to explore even if there isn't as much challenge to it.
@@futureflea3917yeah, even though it's pointless (aside from buying the extra powers I guess) there's not much to exploring in the game, but I inherently enjoy exploring around places like doublemoon villa just because it's fascinating for me to see how much effort was put into a level.
I'm kinda surprised this wasn't mentioned in the video, but when Sonic 1 was in development, they actually used Super Mario Bros. as inspiration for how you'd slowly get better at the game by constantly having to play through the first stage every time you booted it up. Like, no joke, that was mentioned in multiple interviews. It's interesting to see all the other ways the Sonic series was influenced by Mario!
So ironically i had a similar conversation which had a similar conclusion with a friend but well, he studied to be a developer, so his perspective when explaining this to me was much more different, probably the reason for this places in the games, it's to make them more accessible for the kids and general audience. They don't think so much of the gameplay loop in the way we think, which it doesn't mean we are wrong. But we have to have in mind that they don't care so much about what makes good art or challenge or entertainment, but what sells more. This is a reality we must have in mind. This doesn't mean that they don't think through the gameplay mechanics and level design, but it's not the only priority.
So probably all the extra zones or space that can be coinsider useless for an experience player is more through out as a business necessity, so the game has a wider range of success. Which is very important, the less success, the less money it makes, the less of the chance they can work on improving or keep making what they want.
It's a very delicated balance that i learn from that conversation and makes me think games in a very different light. So i don't think now of those spaces as waste anymore, but as a key elements which are necessary for the game to exist in the beginning.
P.S: Also a difference probably on why Mario doesn't encourage for player to run fast through the levels it's to not generate a rejection from players, especially the younger ones, and keep attracting them to the franchise instead of reject them because they weren't fast enough. Which isn't wrong, i don't think you are wrong in how you are playing then, but it's the same mentality as a Nuzlocke for Pokemon games, a challenge were the moment a Pokemon dies, it can't be used anymore. It's not wrong everyone can play games however they want. It's just that the developers at the end of the day are creating a product, not just art, not just entertainment, not just challenge. And the product has to bring something to the brand, positive attention and cash flow. Is it cold to see it this way? No how do you live if you don't earn money? It's a realistic perspective, where they need to balance a lot to achieve a final goal profit.
Both are amazing - casual player
You talk about topics like game mechanics in very deep ways and help me consider things I've never noticed before. I don't know if you've ever considered going to school for design, but I feel like you would be successful in that environment.
19:20 wow, I didn't expect to be personally attacked
Lol, i feel like its less that Sonic "ripped off" Mario, and more that the series built upon the platforming concepts introduced and executed the best of any other platformer at the time in the Mario games, though obviously Sonic focuses more on gaining and using momentum effectively, while Mario focuses on pure platforming (for the most part), but i do agree Sonic 1 is much more like the Mario franchise just cause of it's more platforming focused level design compared to Sonic 2 which put a lot more emphasis on the speed and quick reactions to enemies/harzards, and Sonic 3 which imo perfectly balanced the high-octane playground level design and precise platforming, but yea i can see where this guy is coming, Sonic definetly took a few notes from Mario, but calling Sonic a "ripoff" is way too strong of a wording for it. Sonic was influenced by Mario sure and throughout the first three games they experimented with those concepts perfecting the execution of that precise platforming Mario did so well with the momentum and quick reaction times that the Sonic series added to that "base" that Mario provided, though of course Mario has plenty of segments/levels that want you to go fast, but Sonic took that to a whole 'nother level imo, basically inventing a subset to the platforming genre, something i'd call a "Momentum Platformer", where speed and keeping/using said speed correctly is just as important as the slower "pure platforming" focused segments, and man i love this "subset" of platformers, obviously the Sonic series executes this amazingly, but so do games like Freedom Planet and Spark the Electric Jester, both being some of my favorite games to replay.
Ppl buy into marketing so they bought into the "Sonic vs Mario" idea when, it's never really meant anything besides being a good marketing tool for both companies. That's why ppl get so upset when you say Sonic is kinda a super successful mario ripoff which... I mean the entire platforming genre in video games is that way LMFAO. Mario popularized almost everything you love about 2D and 3D platformers
I've always liked fast-paced gameplay more than exploratory gameplay(that's why Sonic Rush is my favorite game ever), but for some reason I'd always force myself to collect things if the game rewards me for it. I don't like collecting the emeralds in Sonic 3, but I always do it because super sonic is cool and I want to complete the game and play the final act. I never really thought about just foregoing collectables and playing the game how I want. This gave me a new reason to play all these games again.
I think that using save states kind of distorted your experience and that is why you are so bothered by the exploration aspect. When you don't use save states, you have a much bigger incentive for exploring, to get coins, hidden extra lives, possible warps... And I don't think the exploration contradicts the speed, but it rather is up to the player's decision: if you're struggling you want to be careful and gather lives, if you feel comfortable you go fast and make use of momentum, but you're never going to be doing all of one or of the other, yet using save states kind of made the exploration aspect moot from the start.
Well, got to the part in your video when you comment on this very thing, so nevermind... But I still think that playing with save states distorted the experience for you. It's not just about risk and reward, but about choosing the most desirable option depending on how much error one can get away with. Rather than exploration being about sacrificing speed in favor of being more careful, the two styles keep a tension with one another and you always bounce between the two: you're not doing well so you slow down to explore to get more lives, power-ups and such, then you can get away with making more mistakes so you emphasize speed, then you start struggling again, and so on. And since the penalty for losing all your lives is restarting the game from the beginning (there is a trick not to do so but most don't know it), this tension between exploration and speed becomes essential and even central to the gameplay.
As for a motivation for exploring: That is the function of the Game Over, which penalizes you to one degree or another (restarting the whole game, restarting from the last save point, or from the same world, or the same level).
And a motivation for playing quickly: That is the function of the timer. You cannot afford to sit around for too long; Sonic levels give you 10 minutes, Mario levels give you about 3, 4, 5 minutes.
But again, these become far more significant when one isn't using save states to basically bypass both. And while I know you didn't use save states for the NSMB games, I think you may have appreciated them more if you had understood this approach by not using save states in the earlier games.
I recommend you to play Kaizo Mario, kinda of what Sonic gameplay was trying to do
2:26 OH MY GOB-SMACKED GIDDY AUNT, there are RINGS in a SONIC GAME?!
4:46 oh, you MADE the joke already, my bad.
my brain got so confused on the start when seeing sonic from sonic 1 using spin dash and insta shield
amazing video! still watching it
Super Mario World on the GBA was my second Mario game, the first being the original Donkey Kong on a technicality.
When I played Sonic 1 for the first time it was a monumental revelation on how 2D physics can be handled, although I have noticed a handful of similarities between the two franchises.
But the extra details you pointed out, from elements to flat out design philosophies were quite a bit eye-opening.
It comes to show the original Sonic Team studied Mario thoroughly and did their best to remix every last feature to make Sonic as unique and fun as it could possibly be, whilst bringing a lot of creativity-driven gameplay design choices into the experience.
It's the perfect way to answer to a rival franchise, and hopefully we can still see that in modern game development. As even Mario Wonder shows, creativity has no limit.
Its funny to hear you have the revelation that exploration is an option for less experienced players is funny bc I've been thinking that in my head everytime you brought that up lol
I played through Super Mario 1 because of you. (No Warp pipes)
And it brought me back to being 5 years old. (But with Solid, simple, great game.
I prefer the slower path. I always thought it's best to be slow and takes things in, even on future playthroughs where I am good at the game. I don't think I am missing out. But it's nice that someone of a different play style can enjoy it too. You would REALLY hate Super Mario Galaxy.
I'd say just being aware of the different playstyles is incentive enough.
Rather than strong arm players, the variety allows for more player expression.
Very interesting
I'll be honest though, I've kind of been made aware of this duality of gameplay styles through other games I've played, one of them being Dungeons & Dragons Online which... only play it if you don't value your time and/or money...
Brief summary, I'm one of those people who wants to play it more for fun and not as a 9-5 job that *costs* money to work. I go for optional objectives and typically take my time with quests, but often get mixed up with groups that want to blitz through everything at inhuman speeds to maximize their XP gain per minute because XP bonus potions and stuff...
There's also attempts at 3D platforming, but the physics engine is absolutely not made for it...
But that aside, there is another, vastly better game that I believe takes this playstyle duality to a level beyond what Mario and Sonic have ever dreamed of, all while unironically trying to distance itself from the Sonic brand name, funny enough: Freedom Planet 2
This specifically goes into the ranking system for completing levels and how that intermingles with its new found focus on optional collectables and items you can equip that all can minutely or drastically change up how you play the game.
And I guess they're trying to be recognized as more of an action platformer now because they've gone the Smash Bros. route of referring to Lives as "Stocks", making them per-level rather than carrying over from one level to another, and even allowing items to affect how many stocks you have and can get in levels.
More to the point though, Freedom Planet 2's ranking system is... interesting. I believe it's largely affected by your end-level crystal multiplier (they're a proper currency now, yippie) but attaining the prestigious S rank has two different particular conditions to achieve in any given level:
1. Completing the level within the Par Time and without taking damage once*
2. Completing the level with two Brave Stones equipped and without losing a single stock.
First, I'll explain what Brave Stones are and do: while most items might give your character new abilities or properties to make the game easier overall, Brave Stones are instead items that specifically challenge you in one way or another, and like normal items, their affect on your game difficulty varies WILDLY, all the way from something as benign as making new Stocks take more crystals to gain to if you take damage at all*, you die.
Oh, but don't think it ends there.
For those seriously seeking to push themselves to their limits, there is the fabled Rainbow S Rank that requires players to develop a mastery of the game itself to obtain:
Complete the level with a total shard bonus of I believe +110% or higher and without taking damage once*.
To accomplish this, you very clearly need to go double Brave Stones, and the one-hit-kill Brave Stone may as well be non-negotiable since a single lick of damage voids the Rainbow S Rank anyway, and you're free to pick your other Brave Stone, though aside from anything time-based, most options are moot beyond how much the increase your end-level Crystal bonus due to the nature of pursuing a Rainbow S Rank.
So, about those asterisks earlier?
Well, shields obviously protect you, but funny thing is that the game doesn't count hits to your shield as damage taken at all, not even for calculating your rank...
...and it just so happens that Milla sells a potion that increases the amount of shield hits you gain per shield box by one per potion level taken (up to 5).
Shields themselves default to already having 2 hits in them, but unlike the first game, Freedom Planet 2 lets you stack shield hits from multiple boxes, provided you can preserve your shield long enough between shield boxes, though your shield effect will change types to the last box you broke.
But regardless, taking this into consideration, Rainbow S Ranks now boil down to memorizing shield box locations as your new HP pool, while still emphasizing self-preservation skills as it's much less renewable compared to the old life petals.
Oh, and a final wrinkle: Battle Dome boss refights don't provide you any access to shields
haaave fuuun!
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Oh yeah, and what's my playstyle like?
Well when I played last year, I quickly dedicated myself to option 2 for S ranking every level because that option felt much more suitable for also efficiently filling out the Museum (and since I wasn't buying any helper items or anything, what else was I going to spend crystals and gems on?)
I can't say I've S ranked every level though... true final boss was a real doozy, and I even had to step away from my computer on my first run... twice... from sheer adrenaline.
Whenever I play through the game again though, I WILL crack that level's S rank.
Okay.
But which does the “go as fast as possible’ playstyle better? 😏
Jokes aside, that conclusion reached at the end about how Sonic’s just a “branch” of Mario, one that takes the core gameplay of Mario and just focuses on and develops certain aspects of it a bit more to make something interesting is a perspective that I’ve never heard before and one that makes me view Sonic games a bit differently.
Honestly, it slightly deepens my respect for the series as a whole even further for some reason.
Dunno about the Rings and Yoshi, the original Sonic the Hedgehog and Super Mario World were developed simultaneously...
The ring system was actually a very late-stage decision by Naka for Sonic 1, and Mario World dropped 7 months earlier, so it's totally possible lol.
@@SubsonicSparkleespecially considering how short development cycles used to be back then. I believe Sonic 1's programming lasted like 6 months.
19:09 You can learn a lot of new things looking at art again and again. Now this shouldn’t be an excuse for stagnation, and something like this is a prime example of experimentation of different games can lead to you understanding another game so much more.
I am a fan of both Sonic AND Mario. I grew up with both Sonic AND Mario. However, I realise that Sonic only exists because of Mario, because Sega wanted their own mascot to compete against Nintendo. Also, even though I love Sonic and Mario, I still love Sonic even more than Mario because Sonic was a bigger and better part of my childhood than Mario. I always love Sonic no matter what.
The Mario franchise = A man with a moustache fights against a spiky animal
The Sonic franchise = A spiky animal fights against a man with a moustache
22:16 I kindly disagree, once you get good at the game, and you want to keep a more explorative playstyle, lives can become like a "score" you try to get higher every playthought (that's also assuming you don't die)
I don't know if this was intended, but it works well for me
The problem with that is lives as a goal of their own are usually very exploitable due to flaws in the system. You can replay levels over and over and grind for as many as you want, or find some exploit to get 99 all at once.
@@Pariah6950 That's true! Not going out of your way to farm life ends up being a self imposed condition. I still do it because it does suit that playstyle, but another method may be better
I do understand the knee jerk reaction to your Mario gameplay but to say someone is playing a game incorrectly is pretty neglectful of the sheer amount of player expression possible in something like a platformer
Hey Pariah, have you tried Wario Land 4 and Pizza Tower? Idk about WL4 because it can be slow at times, but I have a feeling you'd love the kinetic and flowing gameplay and replayability of PT!
Tails is a multi-tailed Kitsune. In some pieces of folklore and much of japanese pop-culture, Kitsune have a direct rivalry with Bake-Tanuki
Some of these things are probably coincidences
I like to think of Sonic games as the far more superior and evolved version of the Mario games
Mario & Sonic are two sides of the same coin. Both work the same, but took different paths, approaches and results. Leave & Learn, I say. Leave & Learn!
Now who had played the fancy pants adventure games? How are they?
I love how he talks about the concept of people being less skilled like it never occurred to him before 🤣
6:07
Tails was based on a tanooki at one point to my knowledge, and they only went against as a flying tanooki was too similar to Mario.
4:22 I like the theory, but Sonic 1 came out a year before Mario World 🤷♂️ like I doubt they would be that inspired by concept Yoshi? Lol
Mario World came out in 1990 in Japan.
About the criticism at 19:25, I think Sonic Robo Blast 2 has a good way of incentivising both styles.
In SRB2, emblems will give you bonus levels, extra playable characters and other such gameplay content. So you obviously want more, it's not just completion for the sake of it. You can get emblems by time attacking the levels BUT you can also get them by exploring. The time attack requirements are strict, and the in-level emblems are very well hidden. So you can choose your approach
But eventually, you will exhaust the emblems of a level with one play style, meaning you'll need to take the other approach to get more. So for example, I got all the time attack emblems for Greenflower Zone (I unlocked Any as a result). But recently, I've been taking it slower and exploring them to get all the exploration emblems.
this is an interesting discussion
how food is digested
Feels bizarre hearing you say coins and actually meaning coins
Adventure 2's asteroid level included platforms with their own gravity long before Mario Galaxy did it. Mario Galaxy's Hint TV looks like it was inspired from the Hint Boxes in Adventure 2 as well.
thank you very much for recomending New Super Mario Bros. U
in the other video
I find strange that fans are mad that Mario might have influenced Sonic in many ways. Like I get that saying this might come across as trying to downplay Sonic's originality, but at the same time the very decision of letting Mario influence Sonic is a very 90s SEGA and well, Sonic thing to do. At the very least in the west, the Mega Drive was always about "we can have what you have, and BETTER!", and Sonic being a hit in the west was a big influential factor in it's concepting stages, so it only makes sense to take the same core ideas from their rival and put an innovative and arguably use them in much more interesting ways.
It's no secret that Sonic was MADE to be compared against Mario, down to game design similarities and differences. They were trying to make the perfect rival, similar, but SEGAfied.
They're not mad. But some of these are just Far fetched and it's just a way to say "Sonic ripped off Mario", when they're not really much alike.
@@NebulaSon yeah I agree, ripping off is too much lol
You know thinking about the Mario video man it must’ve been depressing for you pariah to play through the games and they slowly drift away from your ideal mechanic of GO GO MARIO. Reminds me of how with the fnaf games they slowly drifted from paranormal to sci-fi which I’ve heard people not really like
So you finally understand the value of playing Sonic for score
Yeah it also makes me think of the koopa shell power-up from NSMB where it turns you into a koopa shell and you how you can run a top speeds without much caution because you can just hit down to go into the shell and blast through enemies and gain speed while going down hill, and the fact that out of all colors they chose blue for it makes me think maybe it could have been a possible nod to sonic, but probably not
The blue shell isn't actually activated by hitting down to go into the shell while running in NSMB, in that game Mario automatically enters the shell when he reaches top running speed without any player input. Which is honestly kinda annoying and it should work like how you described (and the Penguin suit in Wii does act like that, and the shell was reworked to as well in the hack Newer DS).
@@legoboy7107well you *can* activate it by pressing down, but it functions more like Sonic's rolling in that it slows you down and *iirc* puts you at a stop if you hit a wall
For me I don’t prefer one gameplay style over another. I absolutely love the idea of going fast in Sonic games, but I also love taking it slow when I’m playing a 2D Mario game.
U jus opened my third eye too lol. incredible vid
I’m sure Mario influenced a lot of games. Sonic is just one example
"When you go through a pipe there's like a 2 second window where you're not doing anything and it just kills the flow"
I think you would spontaneously combust if you ever played any kind of turn based RPG
One of my biggest issues with those games is how long it takes for everything to happen. I can solve a simple combat encounter in seconds in my head. But it takes minutes to make it all happen for no reason.
@@Pariah6950 I love the genre but couldn't agree more. So much is put into the presentation that it takes away from the gameplay, like I CANNOT play the PS1 Final Fantasy games because every single fucking battle has a like 7 second whooshy whoosh 3D camera intro and an outro that's almost as long.
Though there are some that streamline everything quite nicely so there's no pointless downtime like that. The Xenoblade games [which the first game took me from hating RPGs to loving them in the first 2 hours] has all the combat play out in real-time in the overworld, there's no transition. You target an enemy and engage it, and once you win, there's no status screen or anything, your earned money and EXP just shows up on the side of the screen while you keep playing. It's great and I highly recommend at least checking out 1 or 3 if you're ever in the mood for a long-form sci-fi story.
@@aortaplatinumcould i play xenoblade 3 after 1 and skip 2?
@@wistfulanthophila9317 Absolutely, that's what I did. Played the shit out of 1, tried X a couple times but never REALLY got into it, saw 2 was cringe weeb bait, and then played like 200 hours of 3.
And actually being a fan of only one of the previous games works well in a meta sense in regards to 3, since Keves and Agnus are the equivalent to 1 and 2 respectively, down to their aesthetics, races, and even battle gameplay.
The only thing you'd be confused on storywise is some of the Alpha-Ontos-Pneumea Trinity Processor stuff touched on in the Future Redeemed DLC expansion, but you can still enjoy the story of even that without it.
@@aortaplatinum Good to know i won't miss *that* much from skipping Xenoblade 2. That might just give me the motivation to finally actually start the first one.
Another similarity that Sonic and Mario have is the iconic first level. For Mario it's level 1-1, for Sonic it's Green Hill Zone. As a side note, Doom has a very iconic first level (and song) which is E1M1.
Another similarity that Sonic and Mario (and Doom) have is that boss battles are not good. (Ok, treating Bowser as another obstacle did work well for the first SMB and Lost Levels)
Another thing they have in common is they have two sequels to the first game. (For Mario it's Lost Levels and SMB2. For Sonic it's Sonic 2 and Sonic CD)
It's funny how Sonic, a game (or games) that inspired Freedom Planet, Spark the Electric Jester, and others ends up being inspired by Super Mario Bros. I guess you could say that Super Mario Bros is the grandfather of not just any platforming games but also momentum-based platforming.
Unless you count Flicky (1983). Which was designed as a competitor to Mappy.
@@iwanttocomplain You know, some people would say that Doom is the grandfather of FPS even though Wolfenstein 3D came before Doom. And there were FPS before Wolfenstein 3D.
Is Super Mario Bros the first game with the momentum or there is an obscure game that came before SMB that had the momentum?
@alexandrpeterberg390 Flicky is May 1984 and SMB is September 1985. So that’s 18 months earlier but momentum in games is present in Asteroids, one if the very first games. Tennis For Two (the first ever game) has bouncing ball physics!
@alexandrpeterberg390 Wolfenstein 3D was the first game using John Carmack’s raycasting engine. So yeah, the first FPS _really._ 3D Monster Maze on the ZX81 is not really 3D. The ZX81 can only display text. So it’s just pictures made of text characters. But it is first person. But there’s no gun.
11:10
Pretty much. I consistently get around 27 seconds on Green Hill Act 1 because of how much I played that level in my life.
Yeah, about the Yoshi bit at the beginning, that is most definitely a coincidence. Since both Sonic 1 and Super Mario World came out the exact same year, there's no way Sonic Team would've known about how Yoshi was going to handle in that game. You're really stretching with this point.
Mario is red, Sonic is blue. They're nothing alike.
They are both red and blue
this isn't about character design
@@YplanAnimator I'd like to think Pariah is smart enough to figure out my comment wasn't meant to be taken seriously.
all ima say is they make games like mario but different (except lost world) entirely or mostly
I feel Metroid series the most interesting example of two playstyles.
Fact is, it changes with progression. Ah the start you carefully aiming at every peaceful enemy, but in the end you running through them like Sonic, ignoring walls and physics.
And that's the reason I separate Igavania games (Castlevania-like metrioidvanias) and Metroid-like games (classic metroidvanias).
Awesome video, also how are you playing SMW in widescreen???
He might be using the emulator BSNES. It is able to load a specific fan-made path for “Super Mario World,” that allows the game to be modified to run in widescreen.
This video might be helpful:
th-cam.com/video/-aASvOIlIGI/w-d-xo.htmlsi=W0ZuKT9_AeLFiwEw
Finally, someone figured it out
I believe Yasuhara directly called out Super Mario Bros/SMB1 as an influence in a GDC talk he didd
Hey I know good things take time but is the sonic colors retrospective coming anytime soon? Or a sonic 4 retrospective?
Don't know if it's irony or bait but this video goes to much in the "every 2D platform is a Mario inspired game if you look close enough" direction and I'm not much of a fan of that
But it’s true. Mario 1 basically spawned the entirety of the platformer genre as we know it today. Many of the basic elements of platformers that people take for granted were invented for Mario 1.
@@Tom-jw7ii yeah but everyone already knows that, I don't usually watch videos just to hear things I already heard a billion times, I want new informations and new points of view
I think the nes versions of mario might be better for speedrunning than the allstars versions if I remember correctly. figured you might like to try that. Like im pretty sure you can jump pirahna plants when running at full speed in the original mario game but not in allstar for some reason for example.
You can also jump through that one pipe with an invisible block next to it in lost levels, for some reason, but only on NES
So I wanted to ask a question, I saw your video where you talked about Unleashed Project and you mentioned the physics not being completely accurate (at least as of the time you made the video) which can cause issues in accessing the 'upper' pathways. As of the latest version (and including The Complete Addon mod), how many upper paths that you can think of remain inaccessible due to improper physics (or other bugs)? Just like a ballpark number as to how frequently it happens.
I'd try Xenia if I had a full game save (no Werehog stuff!) and could put the homing attack on jump button.
You can do pretty much everything in Gens. It just feels a little different, which messes with muscle memory when doing specific skips is all.
Wait until this man discovers Pac-Land!