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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 พ.ย. 2010
- I'm very sorry to notice that the audio track is different now. When I uploaded it, it had the original monologue. Pretty strange but I hope you can enjoy the video anyway. Interesting stuff.
A monologue from the movie Waking Life (2001) with David Sosa speaking
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Sosa
www.imdb.com/title/tt0243017/ - ภาพยนตร์และแอนิเมชัน
“I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road.”
― Stephen Hawking
We're not talking about how actions are restrained by physical laws once they are chosen, we're talking about the choices themselves being determined by prior "momentum" if you will, in terms of the force of brain chemistry, past social conditioning, etc. Even in the case of some measure of randomness, an overwhelming number of things can be explained by causal relationships and in the end, the strongest causal forces win out, similarly to if many objects collide with one.
This is the DVD commentary version
Humans have free will because we aren't robots; we can't think about or remember things perfectly, so there's always a margin of error.
That margin of error is responsible for divergent thought, subjectivity, creativity, individuality, etc...
Possibly the best part of this movie. Thanks:)
It's nice to see people on the Internet who are aware of the true nature of being.
As a current philosophy major, I see the whole idea of debating the question of free will to be useless. (Solution 1: We Have Free Will) If we have free will, then debating the truth of it is a waste of time. SO DO SOMETHING ELSE. (Solution 2: We Don't Have Free Will) Under the assumption that we don't have free will, we cannot control what we think about, which means the quest for proving/disproving the idea of free will is entirely pointless because the truth being looked for will never be found.
But the thing is, to either choose to believe in option 1 or option 2 you have to think about it.
+thisismy name
So what you're saying is that we all should be fatalist?
People pick sides, I've picked mine, not believing in free will is denying your human existence.
This is by far the best scene in the movie IMO. I tend to think of the quantum mechanics angle at the and as simply being evidence that we aren't as close to understanding the the rules that govern determinism as we once thought though. If that's the case then why should we care if we have free will or not?
Without all the scientific over-rationalizing:
Free Will allows you to choose a pathway of good vs. evil. It allows you to ask, believe, envision & receive what your heart truly desires.
Even though every living sentient being has a soul, it's humans who have free will, not animals. Therefore, animals are eternally innocent. They freely pass over into the afterlife with no karmic repercussions. However, karma dictates humans must pay for any human or animal they've caused suffering to.
There are physical chemicals that correspond to sadness (or lack of preceived expected happiness), that correspond to self worth, and that correspond to what peope of high and low value are worth to society. That identy (based on serotonin) causes people to do the things they do. If people could believe that other people loved them (with more hugs w/o the self-doubt) people would do this. The only escape comes when you're inspired to act, but even that takes time: Master the matrix is the answer
An eye opening film! So wonderful. It generates thinking, conversation, anger, passion. This is what it's all about.
Its philosophy, its meant to make you think. it is simply showing that we don't know the answers, so start thinking for yourself and look into these questions that plague us. you never know, you might find the answer.
Man, I remember when this very clip first introduced me to the premise of determinism. Now the idea of free will (having learned what I know now) seems laughable. The odd part is how I and so many others really just take the idea of "free will" for granted, and yet never really contemplate the implications behind such a proposition and how it is not really a coherent assertion. :
Free will: free from what? By what mechanism would it possible? Youd have to have some special part of the brain that is detached from the rest of the brain and is exempt from the laws of physics, and cause and effect.
Theres only 2 possibilities. Either a thing or action is caused or uncaused. a caused event would fall under the determinism proposition, laws of physics, cause and effect. etc So theres no free will there.
An uncaused event is another word for "random" and random does not equate to free will either. So until free willers can make a more coherent stand on what exactly they mean by free will, the burden of proof is on them, along with defining what they are talking about.
There's still free will in how you choose to feel about the events which are determined - you can be traumatized by them or learn to let go. In other words, your subjective perception of these determined events is a choice. And what if how you choose to perceive those events then determines which universe (re: multiverse theory) of causality you're "in" for subsequent events? Metaphorically, perhaps I don't get to choose what they play on all of the radio stations available to me, but I can, by changing my mind about how I feel about what's playing, change which station I'm hearing.
I feel smart because I understood all he said and was able to process it... and I'm just 15.
It certainly is a powerful, consistent and necessary illusion!
You will not say what you are not meant to say.
You will say what you are meant to say.
Try doing something different than what you will do; you can't.
I remember this film. The character is actually dead (or rather his body) but doesn't realize it yet. That coms at the end when he retraces his steps to the accident. Before then he stops and talks with many about the meaning of life. It's almost like he is in limbo. It's a good film that is triply.
To end poverty you have to stop the bar on what's called poverty from being raised.
You have to make sure that those that can't take care of themselves are taken care of.
You have to have in your system enough incentive to product enough to help others out of poverty and help those that can't take care of them self.
You have to make sure that which is collected to help the poor (I hope it would be in the form of donations not taxes) would not be stolen like what happens in many countries.
I remember this segment really making me think a lot.
This clip was exactly like you wanted when I uploaded it. I think that it was some copyright issue on the audio track. I can definitely recommend buying the movie if you want to hear the right audio track.
beautiful
Free Will! Will has been wrongfully convinced and imprisoned and its time we stand up and demand that he is released from his illegal bondage
Eye see what U did there
That was hard as fuck to follow!!
Ok, so basically he's saying that since everything in the universe is governed by fundamental laws that cannot make conscious choices, we, as humans being an extension of these atoms particles etc, cannot possibly also have free will since all that we are is just billions of little pieces of the universe also following these basic laws. So we're essentially just really complex biological systems, or organic robots haha.
That's only if you don't believe you have a soul.
It takes many lifetimes for some to acquire the wisdom to grasp infinity. Until then, you see life very limited, like a machine that only has so many years to survive, then ceases to exist.
Everything is amazing and magical and no body cares because they can't understand it. Accept life as the joyous wonderful creation that it is.
Why not? That's what people do to improve everything. Take the information around you, piece it together, and come up with an improved idea! It's not just his work it's way more that I mix together.
-Ken Wilber
-Eckhart Tolle
-Sam Harris
-Deepok Chopra
-John Hagelin
-Robert Melamede
-James Gates
-Carl Sagan
-Fred Alan Wolf
-David Lynch
-Terence & Dennis Mckenna
-Stephen Hawking
-Michio Kaku
AND MORE...
Since philosophy is our interpretations of the world and it's problems that have yet to be proven by science, then you can safely say that what David Sosa just told us is neither right or wrong. It is just his interpretation on free will. Essentially he is giving us his thoughts so that we can build upon them. Because there would be no point in him telling us these things since he said plainly that there isn't a solution to it yet. So, that's his purpose, give us an idea so that we can build up
@iNarbage dont hate this guy has the right to his own veiws
You're right! On one level, there is no shared anything!! I am me, myself in my body, separate from everything else... I see your point.
I just go deeper, sorry if you can't handle it bro.
I am just ahead of my time.
What would bring the world to peace?
Separation leads to violence, always.
Oneness leads to peace, always.
If you believe you are separate from everything, without understanding that the separation can only come from a unity state, then it will lead to conflict.
Oneness = truth
It is best summed up by the phrase: The more you learn the more you realize you just don't know.
Do you know who the gadfly is that referred to in my previous post?
you don't have to believe in everything they say, i don't think that's the point. i think the point is just to get you thinking about different angles and ideas of the very very very mysterious phenomenon that we're all a part of and only know so much of: life
Our actions are responses to stimuli and are determined by factors such as genetics, psychology, hormones, experiences. Our actions are determined by factors we can't control. But free will is defined as the ability to make choices. Choices are the result of having judged the merits of several options. We obviously make choices everyday. But how do we judge? We judge based on predetermined factors (genetics, psychology, etc). Based on definition, we have free will. But it's predetermined. LOL
1:32 this popped into my head *sigh* "sorry honey I have to go cheat on you with your sister./ AGAIN.." "that's okay.. it's not like we have free will anyways"
This movie is brain food! LOVE it!
This is so true. If you deny this then you don't understand it properly. Simple as that.
I just came by the video free will - chillstep 3
If you wished to jump and never come down though gravity would prevent you from doing this and that is where physical laws can limit one's freedom.
We are as free as the waves in water, as the rays of light from the stars, no more, no less. We are a part of nature.
The very brief, and incomplete, synopsis of what I'm saying is this: there are forms and systems of logic, and some of them are considered to be more logically sound or reasonable than others. Using certain systems of logic, without completely understanding the foundation of the logic used to construct that system, can often lead to fallacious reasoning--that may very well "sound" reasonable or logical without actually being so.
I follow Kant's system delineated in Critique of Pure Reason.
It sounds as if movie had and additional audio track with commentaries running. Somehow when you uploaded it, it switched to that second sound track.
There's nothing to prove wrong if there was never a solution provided. Insight is what the movie is about. Giving opportunities to those who think and challenge the comprehension of everyday life. Not being an ant, as the movie stated in one of the scenes.
the sidebar recommends 'Michio Kaku: Why Physics Ends the Free Will Debate' which has a nice physics thing to say about the matter, but that's not what got me. i'm a philosophy major, and not only does he try and answer an ethical question with science, but he does not focus on the brain whatsoever. he says some stuff about how the body works, then he spouts a lot of sentences which all come to mean 'we should want to find the answer out'.
If we really don't have free will then whatever happens just happens. If this knowledge spreads across the world, then that was always going to happen. And if everyone gives up as a result of this, then that's just the way it was going to be. If they don't give up, then that's the way it was going to be. That's what having no free will means. Whatever happens happens, regardless of whether we discount the importance of choice or not (this itself being something that was just going to happen).
I knew it the comments would be awesome!
What part of the video do you believe is nonsense? Just curious.
Causality leave NO room for freedom. If the causal antecedents to our every action regress to before we were born, we humans don't even technically make decisions. Also, while qm relies on probabilities to make predictions, the underlying particle behavior is causal.
@selvmordspilot where did you read this?
Good luck with the book! Since you and I are one, I want my share of the royalties when it gets published ok :-)
I feel light headed
Mirror example: Yes, this is true.. And it's intuitive to understand.. but see, applied to our working scale, that assertion becomes only a scientific curiosity. A counter example. At an atomic scale, everything is made of "holes". If you zoomed in on an atom (Bohr's model) you would see it's mostly empty, the nucleus being like an orange in a football field where the first energy orbital lies in the stadium's periphery... Even so, if you try to fall through CONTINUED
Our own consciousness is what life is about.
The monologue isn't suggesting so much that every action is governed by physical law, but rather we *take* these actions because of physical law. So for instance, in your example, you say that you can decide to jump. The monologue is suggesting that you didn't really choose to jump at all, but rather the subatomic particles that make up our being were either in a deterministic/probabilistic course that resulted in your impulse to jump.
If you have a plan of getting that done, I would like to hear it and I think the world would benefit from hearing it.
nothing wiser to state hm.... interesting
heart knowledge and head knowledge are two different things, innocence is the result of a being, being truth in any moment. Once this is held, once one is this way, then, truth will be realized, and, how consciousness works, how the individual is, and what is and isn't is revealed. We are completely unique beings, the ego isn't the problem, its what is guiding the ego. Free will really is simple, you just have to understand consciousness on a universal scale, as in everything in this layer cake
yes, and we are made of all that exists.. and still a part of it.. you don't think?
I concur
always :) peace
Schopenhauer solved this problem in a side note.
If it is an illusion then it certainly is a powerful illusion! I'm on the fence until we know more about consciousness and the origin of everything.
Truth
Thanks for sharing, I am familiar with ken wilber work. His best book (before he watered down his work and developed a cult and became commercial by selling products at his .org affiliate sites) is Sex, Ecology, spirituality. And having 2 or 3 or n selves doesnt change the fact that we are in control (mostly!) of our own wills. If you make a fire, the fact that you perceive the fire a nano second after you actually initiated it by will doesnt exclude your responsibility for it. CONTINUED
First, *your. Second. Yes, a "feeling" is an emotion. I didn't say I "am smart." I simply said "I feel." Truly, most kids of my age cohort a few decades back would easily understand this. Few kids today care. Thus, it's an illusion of intelligence, in which I'm of average intelligence as of a few decades ago, and the rest of my age cohort seems to have lowered a few IQ points
Has anyone found the original clip from the movie without commentary on top??? This is too annoying! (not the commentary, but not being able to find the original clip)
@mustanglp50 the Universe, however chaotic it is.. still has fundamental laws that bind it, physics and science constantly change but we have a lot of the basic root ideas down, sure new information comes all the time and we add that to the hypothesis and theories, but that doesn't mean what you think it means.
What? I said I am friends with people that have similar personalities and interests and THAT is logical, to be friends with someone who I hate would be illogical.
Makes sense to me it seems that they are saying what the gadfly said, they know nothing. Its a paradox because we know everything but its at the unconscious level.
CONTINUATION if you try to fall through a concrete floor in an apartment building (by applying the theory of "it is mostly empty") you wont be able to, because our macro scales are... well, macro! so the theoretical model of the 2 selves is true, but it's real world, pragmatic value to the "working scale" of our consciousness is nimious. I mean, we are not designed to perceive in real life. and we dont need to.
We are the One, manifested in the many, returning to the One.
Go with the flow, as the flow makes everything go...it will guide us all.
Realize that we are all One Consciousness, disguised as many.
One mind, disguised as many.
One Past.
One Future.
One Present Moment.
Everything is either Oneness or Yin & Yang. That's the secret of it all. Separation leads to Oneness. Yin & Yang is the universe expressing a perfect balance in every moment.
My company will help alot of poor people, I hope.
How do we know we are NOT a gear in a massive fractal machine moving the "universe" as we call it.
-We are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively.
-The words that are being used by the both of us are being interpreted subjectively rather than objectively; creating ignorant confusion.
Please listen to some Ken Wilber on youtube!
We have 2 selves.
You will gain awareness - that is it.
When it gets published I will use the money to start a company that will eventually get rid of poverty!!! (hopefully) :P
Enlightenment onlycomes when one realizes that this bodyand its mind is not yours. Once you see that this body is but a product of the laws of physics set into motion you feel a disconnect to it. Unless you are attached to itand in that case you become angry because that which you hold onto seems not to have the value you thought it had. But then who are we, and thats when a bigger picture arises, you are life experiencing itself in afragmented fashion. Every piece existing separately, seemingly
So... If we were the universe before we were humans and we are still the universe as humans.. .. .
So they put commentary on top without you knowing it? That's weird... I've seen the movie (it's great!), I just wanted to share that part with some friends. I found it in vimeo, in case anyone is interested (no bot this time)...
@mustanglp50 Life isn't illogical, what does that even mean? If you're just gunna be like "herpaderp we're just atoms that formed together thats so illogical" then don't even bother replying. It's not illogical because thats what happens under certain circumstances according to the laws of the universe, meaning its as logical as anything could ever be.
Logic, the word?
Please explain what you mean by "logic".
Dude!!!
I understand what you are saying, but honestly, it's just a matter of understanding how the yin and yang operate within the Oneness. Everything is One.
There is only One Path.
One Destiny. (disguised as billions of destinies)
One Mega-Mind. (disguised as billions of Mini-Minds)
One Consciousness
One is Everything; and Everything is One
That's just like, your opinion, man.
Are we really in control though? Sam Harris, argues that free-will is an illusion. Have you seen his lecture on the subject? If so, what is your rebuttal?
All decisions, actions, emotions, choices, etc, are generated by the brain. Thoughts just appear in a persons conscious witnessing state. If you don't know what your next thought is going to be until it arises in consciousness then where is the free will in that?
If free-will were an illusion, then it even still, doesn't discount the importance of choice and decisions... It's not like everyone will give up because they "realized" that there is no free-will..
You're going to have a hard time understanding these notions unless you've meditated daily, taken DMT or other entheogens...
Whatever the truth may be, we CAN'T do something that we weren't supposed to do. In other words, you will do what you will do, every choice is an inevitable choice; therefore an illusion...but a good one at that! lol
If you cant see were that came from, and your argument is "ahahaha" then we clearly, at this moment in time are in epistemologically different states of mind. Good luck in your journey! and Will look into what u said on eart's EM field interacting with ones' mind.
heres a verse to ponder on... as you do not know the path of the wind, or how the spirit (life) enters the body being formed in a mothers womb, so you cannot understand the work of God, the maker of all things. (Ecc. 11:5) you dont have to understand why, just know that yeah... thats the best course of action, you still have the CHOICE to do what you want, but you dont control the consequences, you cant stop a glass from breaking when it hits the floor, but u can choose to not drop it
There are deterministic factors in life... but in the end we decide what to do with our box of crayons. Epigenetics, super conscience above gene's "will". Yes we can theorize all we want, but to submit the analysis of a epistemologically perfect truth to the exercise of our imperfect measuring isntruments (human mind) we are doomed to failed from the start. Its like trying to measure milligrams using a gram scale. you can approximate to working comforting models of reality but never to truth.
but when you try to solve the "problems of freedom" your actions will be predetermined as well making the solution if you ever find it, a predetermined event so really, i don't think we have any free will whatsoever. it's just not possible in this dimension, per se.
Even though I really liked the movie, I think some parts are taken deliberately from pop psychology or are taken out of context to precisely provoke thought on the viewer. I liked your point of view u basically said its more comfortable to delegate our responsibility to some already laid out master plan. its cheaper, easier, energy preserving.
I understand the needs of the human race...because I AM THE HUMAN RACE. The essence in me is the same essence in you and everyone else. We are all One.
There is no "they". Everyone is you, and you are everyone.
Yet at the same time, you are just you. So there's multiple levels to our existence, but not everyone is aware of it. That disconnection to the Oneness is what causes all conflict in the world. Get rid of separation, end of all conflict, world becomes One.
good luck with that man :P
What argument? The one based on quantum mechanics? He concludes that the argument for free will based on quantum mechanics solves nothing, THEN says that he'd prefer to be a gear. "Either the universe is completely deterministic, or completely chaotic. Either way, free will can't exist."
And you're right, he offers no solution to the problem or answer to the question (however you'd prefer it be worded), but why is that a problem? If there is no answer then we should say so, shouldn't we?
reminds me of ryan larkin (the shortmovie)
Where does he contradict himself? You should write what the contradiction is instead of just saying there is one.
The problem you're going to have trying to tell people this is in the notion they have about God. in the minds of people that actually need you to tell them this, god is an authority, and by telling them they are wrong you are taking this role. What they need is to work from inspiration. To find meaning. It doesn't matter if we're slaves. As long as we can take a symbol (anything really) and understand it's meaning using other symbols (visions) then we are free.
Stenchman
woooow what did you say again
Also, it's not going to be a physical answer. The only real way out is to defy physics. Even if suddenly we started flying with our mind, or suddenly gravity didn't exist. It would still be a physical law weather you believe in or not. The escape is not exist by any standard. At first this means no physics (dream time woo) but then we revert back to our original void-spirit form with greater understanding of what we can achieve at all levels of reality. You won't find the answer looking for it.
the problem currently with free will is the lack of conscious awareness held by the planet and largely this reality. Free will is a matter of the subconscious collective as well as, well, mess up input from extradimensional influences. Love is a consciousness, its a state of being, therefore, a being outside of this truth acts with its binary features, making binary decisions(insane), you can't fault the structure, just the lack of 'form', lack of proper 'guidance', or awareness.
and Waking Life is an American movie
If a united conscious wanted to experience everything then it's only choice would be to give unto itself choice, variables, freedom. If you make toy cars and all of them performed just as you wanted them to then there would be no repairs, no room to grow, just sameness in sameness.
see: determinism vs. randomness