FYI, that guy is only one-year practiced guy, but he call himself as "Sword Master". He is member of ARMA, and Korean ARMA says, 'we don't use protection on practice'. I dunno why, maybe Korean ARMA or original ARMA thinks 'we're real deal, we're so cool, so we don't need any protect'. And other thing, he kicked out of ARMA due to bad behave and some kind of trollings.
@@lunar2328 I'm the same I don't mind it makes you harder I only wear helmet gauntlets and shin knee protectors Ive done karate my whole life so getting flogged with kendo sticks is and rope is all part of conditioning
Vs shinai...meh. I have even done shinai sparring without a helmet or gloves. Don't do this at home and all that...but isn't bad barring hits to the eyes...which fyi is Don't Do This at Home. Vs wood or steel...yes.
@@kangyohea1182 Ugh, that is serious cringe. One year and already they think their a master? They never even thought of using low guard when getting their hips sniped.
You are wrong, the longsword guy is one of the main dudes in ARMA Korea. This is definitely not his proudest moment, but I'd say it's mostly because his feet keep slipping. The kendo guy on the other hand had only been doing it for like 2 years at the point of recording IIRC.
@@penttikoivuniemi2146 @Pentti Koivuniemi @Pentti Koivuniemi do you have a link no or reference? Can't find anything on web looking for weaponism, this channel or your channel and looking for arma Korea led to a short thread on their website. Plus alot of drama last year caused them to kickout at least 1 person. And from the arma website it seems mostly self study as people were asking with a reference to "Casey" in Korea as a place to train near the dmz I guess. Plus dude is wearing socks on hardwood. Like. What? I wish they would give names or somn cu I wanna know who all these people are but mostly nameless fighters throughout most videos.
@@jamesquick9843 I don't know what any of these people are actually called, but here's the ARMA dude's TH-cam channel: th-cam.com/channels/iBi1kqLTry1hzKWuBwKwaw.htmlvideos And this is the main channel that these clips come from: th-cam.com/users/hogucouple
As an FMA and HEMA practitioner myself, watching our HEMA guy fighting out of measure and overextending trying to pull off a technique was quite painful. Still, props to both fighters. Kendoka is speed. Our HEMA guy just needs to spar more and get enough experience, I think he still did well regardless.
I am still new to HEMA, but that was very limited. Also all those low strikes; side guard to block those low strikes, and then guard more in fool. He kept going high, how many times does one need to lose to the same technique to know ox isn't working.
You're being too kind. He may have been enthusiastic and put in a lot of effort, but the longsword guy: (1) isn't wearing the correct gear, including shoes - causing him to slip. (2) is too often off-balance (3) over reaches too much with his strikes (4) has poor distancing I'm sure you can point out more flaws in his technique as you clearly know HEMA.
Those blunt metal wasters they use in HEMA are surely heavier than a kendo shinai. That's where the speed comes from I think. That and rigorous practice.
It was frustrating to watch the HEMA practitioner. It seems he was more focused on pulling off techniques he learned like zwerchau, and not maintain proper measure (maai in kendo), use the appropriate guard, and follow the proper beats (timing). It's like he forsook fundamentals and just tried to be fancy. It's like he knows Longsword cuts, but doesn't know swordfighting. If he was indeed just looking to show off unique techniques, why not wear body armor then? He's already giving up defense, he's already not maintaining proper distance or a guard. If you're just going for the fancy cut, and you're just going to tank hits, wear the damn armor. It's arrogance, really. It's like watching someone trying to write a complete sentence without knowing the language or the alphabet. :( Most frustrating was 2:11 where he tried to thrust forward from a high guard, when his opponent already had his sword forward ready to intercept. What is this clown thinking?
I have seen more video's of the hema practitioner, and he usely train outdoor with shoes on. I dont think he is used to train Hema bare feet on such a smooth surface
That's just how most Korean HEMA practitioner's are like. Or also just how Korean culture works in general imo. They value the "tradition" and "technique" over actual practice and application. They place a weird priority over the written technique over actual application of said technique. Maybe they're more historians than swordsman, as they place WAY too much value over historical texts and documents and dislike anything that doesn't follow said manuscripts. They like being a "swordsman" but don't actually spar much. Mostly just practice techniques from manuscripts. And even if they do spar, it's mostly to practice said techniques from manuscripts. Rather than just sparring.
@@sjwoo13 there are those in the West who also fixate on the manuscripts as they know it in contrast to those who take a more athletic and pragmatic approach. Most of the manuscripts in HEMA however do include training tips on becoming brutally efficient. There really was no interest in "style" just efficiency when killing someone. For far too many, the intellectual exercise has become a priority over the practical application.
@@sjwoo13 no insult intended but thats what makes HEMA well HEMA. The manscripts are essential. Sparring is as well but tradition amd technique cannot be overvalued. Otherwise me might as well just do some stuff that "works". With that said sparring is about learning what works and when. This guy might be testing some stuff etc. The travesty is really his refusaö to wear protection.
There is a whole section in Mayers Book on long sword fighting dedicated to "reizen" and "verführen", which in this case means "provoke" and "tempt", because its often more secure to react to an committed opponent. We see some long sword techniques in this video but not much of the actual concept of long sword fighting.
It’s actually a good observation that longsword is more vulnerable at lower levels, at least the way this guy is doing it. I’m a novice at HEMA but my training in kenjutsu has taught me to fight lower, and I do catch a lot of higher level students off guard with blows to the hip and side. “He who brings their war high will be shamed below”.
Well, one is using a 1200 gr practice sword with behavior really close to that of the actual weapon, and the other is using a 500 gr bamboo stick that handles nothing like the sword it simulates.
True, it's very hard to find suitable training sword when it comes to matchup like this. Kendoka only used to shinai and bokken, unless you could invest for them a feder katana, they won't use anything else
@@jaketheasianguy3307 The SIGI forge katana is 270euro, they can go ahead and buy it themselves or find a leaf spring manufacturer and customize 5-6 of those for that same price.
@@yanniskusogaki There's also the problem with traditionalists as well. Alot of guys who study japanese martial arts refuse to use any modern inventions, even synthetic bokken like the one from Cold Steel. If you ask them to use steel, they will either refuse or bring out a blunt real katana, it either that or bamboo/wood. This is why matchup like this are problematic in my opinion, unless the JSA practitioner is open minded, it will never be fair
@@jaketheasianguy3307 you are totally right! The problem is the rest of the gear as well. Because of this traditonalism you are "forced" to wear the japanese protection (don't get me wrong. I love the aestetic of them) but this is not practical at all when you want to sparr with real swords. This limited gear cuts your zones down to head and hands.... But we all know there is so much more to hit at a human body. :D
Lol thats negligible, so you’re saying lighter weapons > heavier weapons. Real Katanas in general are very light regardless so the transferability of skills would still be there, the european martial artist just got schooled
You can see the long swordsman has accepted a strategy of attacking first. This is of course a disadvantage for him when meeting a kendo swordsman who almost always wait, evade and strike back. So the wisest strategy was that of the kendo practioner. You can also see the type of long sword technique used lacks a lot of necessary simultaneus defence.
Which is kind of ironic given that the entire concept of meisterhauen, the core of Liechtenauer systems, is simultaneous attack an defense! The longsword fencer seemed to know some longsword techniques but none of the systematic principles of longsword fencing. Also, kept attacking out of measure.
no its just because the longsword user is just not using offense he don't know how the long sword in offense. Also if the long sword put their guard up it will always hit kendo user.
@@im2randomghgh Yeah,, I also think that this is kinda a bad match, they should get someone who understands the longsword as much as the Kendo fencer clearly understands Kendo
I did kendo before, and I am practicing Liechtenauer longsword rightnow. To fence with a kendo guy, you need to use more tactics, foucs on your footwork and be careful of the gap between Zufechten and Krieg.Try to do something during "Nachreissen". Zwerchau is geart but it needs to do some set up before you launch a zwerchau. Last but not least, don't get hurt in your training.
Idk...it seems to me the longsword guy is out of practice or not use to play with an opponent ... sloppy footwork, bad distance management, over exposed , huge openings... is it lack of experience or school of hema hard to say ... I wouldn't be better, I'm rusty AF I shouldn't really judge the guy nice experiment doh I like the channel so far
Damn, I've seen alot of HEMA Vs kendo videos, and in most the kendoka loses, I think this guy won because he wasn't afraid to adapt to the different style. Nice sparring
The kendo that I am seeing here is quite standard, he is simply using more ōji-waza or counterattacks than shikake-waza or attacks of initiative on openings. This makes sense, given the different notions of an opening in *sport* kendo and HEMA, however... In kendo, we only really begin instructing ōji-waza or counterattacks after the second rank called Ni Dan (in Japan: minimum age of fifteen, for late joiners this might be four years of consistent training) and then we don't really demand proficiency in ōji-waza until two ranks later at Yon Dan (minimum age of twenty, or perhaps ten of consistent training). Low ranked kendoka don't defend because they haven't been taught how, and will jump into a closed guard because they have artificially high standards for what constitutes a valid counterstrike and believe that they can force an error. High ranked kendoka have accepted that competition kendo is a sport with rules, and don't often go outside of those rules to spar with HEMA fencers.
@@Ianmar1 yeah that makes quite a bit of sense, I don't know what rules kendo has, or what they are using in this bout but I've just started learning hema and reposting is one of the safest ways to land a blow because in hema after you attack there's still a short window of time for the other person to hit you so going for attack on preparation can be really risky, being taught the importance of Ripostes straight away in hema really makes the fact that you have to do it for years seem really strange considering that a parry and riposte feels so simple, I'm assuming because the shinai is much lighter than a hema synthetic making parrying less effective against one? That's the only possible reason I can imagine
@@jamiejames416 I assume that the light weight and balance of the shinai gives us more agility than one would have with a shinken. This probably makes blocks easier to avoid, but I don't think that this is what is happening. From my limited experience with kendo kata (standardized kenjutsu), iaido, and koryu (old school kenjutsu) I don't believe that the posture, stances, and strikes of competition kendo leverage this agility in the way that FIE fencing does compared to HEMA equipment. Indeed many of the compromises made in the kendo rules e.g. limited target areas had the purpose to remove finess in favor some psychological aspects of conflict e.g. seme (pressure??), tame (patience??), kime (intention??), and zanshin (awareness??). Taking no points from an elderly visiting sensei is a rite of passage for many overconfident new kendoka who push strenth and speed as far as it will take them. I believe that in (at least) one very important way the longsword is a better fencing weapon than the shinken: blocking with a spring steel longsword might put a repairable nick in the edge, blocking with a differentially tempered shinken might tear irrepairable chunks from the edge. While both the longsword, and the shinken are two handed push-pull weapons, and human physiology remains pretty uniform across the users of each, I expect that differences in usage emerges from a de-emphasis on blocking when it is avoidable. The reason that I believe for the de-emphasis is that swordsmanship is a (desired) side effect but not a primary aim of kendo. "The concept of Kendo is to discipline the human character through the application of the principles of the Katana." We strive never to block without counter attacking because that reveals a weakness of intention (kime), our actions should be deliberate. We strive never to counter attack unless we can do so successfully because that reveals a lack of patience under pressure (tame), we should act on the right opportunity. We strive to create our own opportunities by applying psychological pressure (seme) to our opponents, for this pressure to be meaningful our attacks must be effective. Counter attacks are than attacks of initiative: one must first successfully anticipate the opponent, make a successful deflection or evasion, make a successful attack of initiative, and finally close out (zanshin) any potential rebuttal. Mastery of counter attacks only comes after mastery of attacks. We ask beginners to first master attacks of initiative (attacks on preparation) because we are not teaching them how to survive a dual, we are teaching them the psychological aspects of dominating an opponent before and after the cut. Muddy, indecisive attacks are undesirable, and counterattacks even more so. I like to imagine a boxing school which only does light contact sparring, and only counts knockout punches. Why bother blocking except as a setup for a KO (judgement) attempt. We don't emphasize blocks because we want to first master the counterattack which comes after the block.
@@jamiejames416 I just reread my previous response, and my goodness it is a mess. I will summarize: 1)The shinai is obviously more maneuverable than the shinken or a replica training sword, however as kendo techniques focus on moving the body rather than the shinai I do not believe that we exploit this advantage. 2)Historically defensive blocking with a shinken was risky and expensive since the forging process makes it brittle. Most kenjutsu requires that all blocks are offensive. 3)We postpone instructing counter attacks until after the kendoka has mastered attacks because a parry without a riposte is just a block. Since kendo is a sport, the rules could be written so as to penalize unsuccful defense moreso than unsuccessful offence.
You are doing an amazing job, thanks for making and posting these vids. The expertise and long years and hours of hard work are evident. I have done experimental archaeology recreating 9th to 12th century Scandinavian weapons and armies, and quickly learned a sword is almost worse than an walking cane against steel armor (chain/lammelar/primitive brigandine). The Sword was the pistol of its time not a main battle rifle, a back up at most in a war setting. No army from antiquity till the rise of firearms carried swords as a primary weapon.
I know and armour wasnt given to every soldier most had just a shield and leather or chainmail....the spear hammer and axe were used more than a sword you would use your sword in one on one but never in battle unless you lost your spear but hopolites were there to rearm you so yeah
@@Glutahhn Depends on the sword and the period. The sword was definitely the main weapons of Roman legionnaires, some landsknechts, light cavalry etc. No evidence that hammers or axes were more common than swords in most periods but spears DEFINITELY were. Not even comparable :)
I love your channel. I love all the fighters that you feature in your videos. As a longsword instructor I have serious problems with the way this longsword fighter chose to be equipped, and his tactical choices. It's clear they hadn't been training long when this was shot. Good on you for not breaking his bones lol.
i feel like there was some sort of attitude coming from the HEMA practictitioner prior to the fight cuz the kendoka seems to be hitting his hardest on each stroke like it was personal lol. So smooth ,swift and certain.
We did it guys. We HEMA practitioners became more annoying online than katana worshipping weebs. Congrats. We all know about the weight difference between a feder and a shinai, we can all see the skill gap between these dudes, but we can't just ignore this video and move on with our lives. The time spent here complaining is the time you could've spent making fun of Fiorists, which is obviously more amusing.
I don't see a valid point here. Most comments are politely and correctly pointing out the lopsided matchup for the benefit of people who might not know the difference. You say we all know the difference but not everyone watching this is a HEMA student. Is it better to say nothing and let the clunky knight stereotypes return? And really is your complaining about their comments really a better use of time? Not trying to be rude here.
@@mysticmarbles I made this comment mostly as a joke tbh. But honestly who's gonna stop and look at a comments section and think "oh that makes sense"? We're all wasting time here, no amount of facts will convince internet trolls. I was just trying to be funny tho, not make a big critic about HEMA community online
@@yaleksander42 Fair enough. Some people do take the comments seriously though, as evidenced by all the long arguments on bigger channels. Even jokes are going to elicit "well akchooally" comments like mine so be prepared. :D
Kendo/kenjitsu has a much more robust and well established modern teaching history. HEMA is about trying to figure out how they fought back then and doing their best to put together training curricula and develop a pool of skilled instructors and experienced competitors. Something kendo already has. It'd be interesting to see a similar matchup once (if) HEMA becomes more established and starts cranking out more consistently trained fighters. Not taking anything away from the kendo person, I wouldn't want them mad at me...
HEMA at this point has already established a well foundation in their arts, they're not trying to figure things out by themselve anymore, that's from like 8 9 years ago. This guy is just bad and a show off. Alot of HEMA practitioners at first also have backgrounds from Japanese sword arts, sport fencing or Phillipino Arnis/Kali so they already know how to handle a weapon, they just use the old manual instructions to make their already well established foundation works with real steel blades
@@jaketheasianguy3307 They don't have the continuity of practice and lineage. Once the last person who knew it from someone who knew it from...on and on back to when it was first battle tested, dies...after that you're looking at pictures and trying to imitate them (with some written sources for context). That's not remotely as good as having someone who didn't learn from a book, showing you how it's supposed to be done. I love HEMA but just like pankration, it's essentially an art raised from the dead and imitated as best we know how. Better than nothing, and HEMA has more written sources than pankration, but it's not as solid a foundation as like Kendo has from never actually dying out. Not even close. If you measure from when they became consistently taught, HEMA is much younger than kendo, and needs time to mature and catch up. It's not a knock on it, just an observation.
@@bandit6272 This is just my opinion, but i think HEMA needs to grow out of tradition and lineage, follow the route like MMA now days. There's this conflict in the community that some guys said you must stick to what's written in the maunal because we're reviving a dead art as priority, using stuffs outside the source that works for you is not encouraged because people don't sword fights for real anymore. There's another group that said you just do what works best for you, if it helps you disable the opponent and end the fight, use it, even if it's not part of written tradition. The ARMA guy in the clip is the first type, where he stick to the source in a rigid way, show off techniques rather than fighting efficiently, which is why he looks terrible. My old martial art teacher once said when he was asked about his martial art lineage : "my lineage ? Is the one that gonna help you beat up the other person" and indeed he delivered just that
@@jaketheasianguy3307 That all depends on whether you care about the "Historical" part of HEMA, or the "martial arts" part of it. Seeing as though longsword work is even less likely to come in handy in a modern combat situation, than empty hand or even knife based styles...that kind of leaves you with the "Historical European" part being the main distinction and draw; unless you think another generic way to wave a stick or sharp metal stick at someone is enough to build a viable art and community around...which I doubt. That being said, I don't think there's one right answer. MMA is great, and I used to compete in it (very amateur though, lol), but it's very utilitarian, and so lighter on the "art" side than the "martial" side. Not everyone is going to want that same combination.
@@bandit6272 Just based on my experience, when people attracted to swordmanship, there's almost no one come in with the mindset of "sword fighting for self defense" but rather history or simply curiosity. But slowly sooner or later they would want to stop limiting themselve to old tradition written in the books and just want to use what works best for them in "a real duel", even though everyone agreed that a real sword fight in modern day is not goin to happen any time soon. I think the Japanese have the correct mindset when it comes to this matter, where they used old arts of war to train their mentality stronger and more confidence in daily life. The training stay the same, just the goal is different
I am 90% sure I saw that HEMA guy again in a later video - and the rate at which he improved can be best described as 'pretty insane'. Either enough things have clicked within a year, or the training methods + knowledge of his group really, really helped.
He is at a rather severe disadvantage here since he agreed to fight barefoot throwing off his footwork, and strike with the flat throwing off his bladework.
@@bobbrown3469 He was being polite. Dojo etiquette requires that you do not wear your outdoor shoes on the nice hardwood floors. Barefoot or tabi are preferred.
@@jaketheasianguy3307 - Bro, let's put money in. If you can break my shinai in less than 3 strikes. I give you 100$. If you can't, buy me 1 new one (around 10$). Use a hammer if you want. - You are Asian but don't know how durable bamboo is? - If you are not confident, buy a cheap shinai and test it yourself before taking a deal.
The zwerchhauw technique is definitely a kendo-killer. Happens every time I see a kendo vs HEMA matchup. The kendoka is very honourable though. The longswordsman chose to forgo his protective gear, so it would not have been the kendoka's responsibility to soften his strikes. Still, the kendoka held back to avoid injury. Great sportsmanship.
The longsword guy is also slowing down a lot. Kendo protective gear don't offer enough protection for full speed sparring with steel feders. That's why everyone is ordering SparringGloves(TM) and SPES jacket from Poland
i think this is great proof that one style and sword is not better than the other, its just different and how people adapt to opponents of differing styles.
I do liechtenauer but really want to get into kendo because I'm interested in Japanese culture. Can you do kendo with a real katana? Was it historically done with a real katana? Could you easily kill someone with kendo?
I hope that you do take up kendo, I absolutely love it! I would like to manage your expectations however so that you can appreciate it for what it is without disappointment for what it is not. Kendo is not and does not contain a faithful combat simulation. Since you are coming from Leichtenauer, you are likely very familiar with the HEMA sparring system(s) and you will almost certainly find what we do in kendo to be unrealistic e.g. limited target areas, very strict quality of strike criteria, and handling of doubles. As I understand it, the primary purpose of sparring in HEMA is to validate the interpretation of techniques. The primary purpose of sparring in kendo is very different: our techniques come from many unbroken lines of masters so we do not have a sharp need to validate interpretations, instead we have specialized our system for developing the psychological aspects of swordsmanship. Historically, life and death combat was won and lost more often due to the four sicknesses - Shikai (四戒): Surprise (Kyou / 驚), Fear (Ku / 懼), Doubt (Gi / 疑), and Confusion (Waku /惑) than they were any degree of skill. While kendo cannot recreate the experience of having one's life on the line, you will learn self control and meditation under stress. In my opinion shinai kendo is also the best martial art for developing seme (pressure), tame (vigilance), and kime (intention), and fosters mushin or the ability to act without thinking which I believe is similar to Leichtenauer's indes. Kendo is a standardized kenjutsu system which was developed in institutions rather than ryuha so that the police, the military and eventually high school students would have something which they could train together, irrespective of which koryu kenjutsu style each individual belonged to. The modern emphasis is on developing a strong body and mind by way of studying the sword, but many early practicioners were part of the battotai and had used swords in battle. Modern kendo consists of four pillars: kihon, kata, shiai, and shinsa. Kihon are your fundamentals, and includes big techniques which develop strength and coordination for cutting but are not believed to be competitive in shiai. Kata are our forms and our connection to traditional kenjutsu, here we train with the bokuto, practice correct cutting mechanics and study how kendo can be applied to the sword. Shiai is the most well known sporting component of kendo, it is the closest experience to shinken shobu that we are able to get, thus an important part of our warriors journey. Shinsa are our examinations where we show off our best and most refined kendo. We do not train with steel, sharp or otherwise, although you will sometimes see highly advanced kendo sensei perform the kendo kata with sharp swords. If you are interested in using a steel sword we recommend that you also train iaido, which is primarily solo kata but goes into the subtleties of using and caring for a sharp sword in much more depth. Kendo and iaido are companion arts and are often refered to as "two wheels on a cart" or "two wings on a bird" or "two sides of a coin" etc.
It's true that it's not about the sword, its about the one who use it. It doesn't matter which sword is better, the katana or longsword, what matters is the one who wield it
Hema techniques look good but I think it comes down to the training regimen. Hema is something that has only recently resurrected the old sword arts of the west.
this is one of the not so many videos that show a kendoka defeats a longsword wielder. Despite the lack of reach, range and maneuverability of the shinai, only the skills of the fighter that matter.
Hi waist is open everytime he does a fleche, and that isn't something i feel is apporpriate in longsword fighting. There are plenty of other guard he could have used.
Mongolia imported katana from Japan in the 13th century. Until the 1960s, Mongolian cavalry used katana on the battlefield. Since they were mercenaries of the Chinese government, the Chinese government public relations magazine described Mongolians with katana. China also had a longsword-like sword, but in the 11th century it imported katana from Japan, and in the 16th century the Chinese army used katana.
I felt bad for the kendoka because he was clearly holding back to because the HEMA guy wouldn't wear gear... which is weird because I've never seen a HEMA fighter spar without gear
I don’t want to rag on the guy too hard, but he comes across as someone who just left the beginner phase and is feeling his oats a little. If he has any brains at all, he won’t make that mistake twice, especially against a more experienced fighter.
FYI, that guy is only one-year practiced guy, but he call himself as "Sword Master". He is member of ARMA, and Korean ARMA says, 'we don't use protection on practice'. I dunno why, maybe Korean ARMA or original ARMA thinks 'we're real deal, we're so cool, so we don't need any protect'. And other thing, he kicked out of ARMA due to bad behave and some kind of trollings.
Kendo guy had about two or three years of experience at this point. He is skilled, but he is not winning any competitions which are not explicitly for beginners.
Crazy you aren't wearing body armor. I wonder if you went short with the long sword (with one hand on the base of the blade), would you get the speed to parry the kendo attacks?
Why korean swordmanship uses japanese style? Is it because of japanese influence during their korea occupation in early 1900s? Or their first invasion at the end of 1500s?
Humans only have 2 arms and 2 legs, the basic of using 2 handed swords are the same across the world. Besides China Japan and Korea are close partners and enemies, they traded cultures with each other alot, so their styles influenced each other
Kendo is popular in SK, and equipment is also very cheap there (can get very affordable Chinese kendo gear in SK). A guy at the dojo was there just two weeks ago.
The longsword has this advantage, you can hit with both sides of the sword it is double edged, so you are gonna abuse quite much in the after blows, ping pong, straight up it's too much pressure in the after blows. With the katana you get stronger parries due to the shorter length of the sword and it's faster to parry with.
Katanas generally do quite badly when colliding with another sword, because that's not what they're designed to do. They're super-agile weapons that allow a lethal cut while drawing them, not sabers for fighting a sustained duel.
a very strange fight, the swordsman always la very strange fight, the swordsman always lets the kendo player get very close. due to the lack of a developed guard on a Japanese sword, you can simply stabets the kendo player get very close. due to the lack of a developed guard on a two-handed sword, you can simply stab
The Hema guy did really good. It's simple though that the kendo guy simply has more sparring time in. I wish the Hema guy could put on some actual armor more and train more at the level that the rest of hema worldwide does. His adherence to the historical "practice ways" IE: with minimal armor and protection is hurting areas of his knowledge. Like has been mentioned before, timing, distance, decisiveness.
Except he does fence with gear, he owns a club and a big youtube channel and theres plenty of footage of him sparring in lots of situations. It really does just look like he's playing here. Not to suggest that he's some master fencer who's hiding his true skill level, it just looks like the two people are treating the bout differently
Great stuff guys, nicely done but I can't help but echo the many comments about longsword guy's attitude regarding the fight especially after learning that he didn't want to wear PPE Tsk tsk.
I just think the Kendo guy is doing more quality strikes to the stomach. The longswords man is getting face shots though. Alot of the stomach attacks came from a high block or even receiving a face strike and exchanging a blow to the longsword fighters stomach.
The kendoka is at an advantage having only a shinai which weighs significantly less than the long sword. The other thing is sashi cuts will not kill somebody quickly, or not at all. Kendoka needs to drive the sashi cut, hit target and hold the sword there and use body forward momentum to slice thru the head, or wrist/arm etc.. not do typical kendo cut and then remove the shinai from the target after impact. Suppose its just the kendokas muscle memory training doing the way he was trained the modern kendo way, the koryu way is brutal, why go for top of head when can stab the face... Seeing other long sword users it also appears this user isnt as skilled.
К сожалению, способности у них не равные в спарринге. Старай ХЕМА парень сильнее, то, может, он бы смог действительно показывать его навыки, но это не был случай. Кендо парень намного лучше другого. Это ясно. Хотя этот спарринг бы смог быть лучше, но мне все-таки это понравилось.
Man this is hard to watch. Boy over here first of all should've worn his gear, secondly, really doesn't seem to understand the things he's trying to pull off. Kendo is designed to be reactive and he just keeps bumbling right into it
A fun test but perhaps not a good style comparison. The deck is stacked one sided here. For one the kendoka is using an unrealistically light weapon that allows him to complete a strike before the longsworder is able to complete his strike. Either give them both light or properly weighted steel weapons, I don’t care which. Two the kendoka is clearly more skilled. No offense to the longsworder but but he would be considered a beginner in my club. I’d like to see the test repeated with the guy from Longsword Korea, or even just someone who places in tournaments.
4:21 long sword technique is not vulnerable to waist attacks, for some reason they will not take a frontal low guard. He should have taken a more defensive act against you to counter your speed, clearly being aggressive all the time isn't working as much as he wishes it did. *me watching and screaming* "low guard! add low guard to your movements and stop those hip snipes already!"
Idk who that longsword fighter is, but in my opinion, he needs to practice more... His range control needs work. As they say "if you rush from above, you'll be shamed from below" Source: I teach longsword
Some of the Liechtenauer practitioner's strikes were not edited to look like it struck whereas the Kendo practitioner's did. For example, at 1:38, Longsword guy lands a SOLID Oberhau to the head, but the edit emphasizes the Kendo guy's strike. 1:48, Longsword guy gets a nasty thrust to the throat and Kendo guy gets a good head strike too, but the edit is biased. 2:36 as well... Shinai also has a good sound feedback *THWACK* + the Kiai (the shout) from the Kendo guy makes this fight seem one-sided.
larp can be fun but can also be toxic. depends on the group. Hema can be fun, can be toxic depends on the group. I would say if you want more martial go hema, if you want more fantasy/whatever go larp.
@@fencerguy279 yeah I've met a few that don't like going outside of tournament rule sets, one sword and board who hated getn pushed over (big guy no balance) and a rapier user who really hated slashes. Would only count stabs. But you take the good with the bad I guess. You got any good stories?
The only techniques difference you'll see are because of each systems weapon design. A katana wouldn't be able to perform a false edge cut for example.
This guy is just bad and a show off. He knows how to use the sword but terrible at fighting with it. Replace him with someone actually skilled like Arto Fama and the result will be drastically different
@@jaketheasianguy3307 Shit take tbh, 'just replace him with one of the best in the world', you could say the same on the kendo side. HEMA in general is a young practice, HEMA is South Korea is even younger. That said, the longsworder here has a youtube channel and he actually looks pretty good. Probably doesn't hold a candle to Martin Fabian, but who does? He's definitely better than he appears in this video, he looks like he is being much more playful and explorative than the other guy.
@@thomastucker7317 Yes, that was a terrible take from my side, i admitted it. The moment i wrote it, i was kinda triggered seeing alot of people here used the ARMA guy as an example of how every single HEMA swormen would fight
@@jaketheasianguy3307 I think your point is valid, it was just a bad example. If they just got someone with some tournament experience I think it would be a better matchup. This HEMA guy seems to have had a lot of drill time but not as much time sparring a resisting opponent. He seems to ignore what the opponent is doing and blindly continues his attack as if he's doing it on a dummy. This goes against the principles of Lichtenauer which tell you to provoke them out of their advantage and occupy their blade before you launch your true attack.
From my point od view, the kendo guy had bad conception of how the real sword fight is about. After each strike he made, he alsow was hit by a afterblows. He just want to hit oponent, but he forgot that most important thing is to not be hiten ! The didnt cover himself after atacks, and for me it looks more like a olimpic fencing then the real fight.
That is a common and fair critique which is very hard to handle in any competitive fencing system. Different systems handle afterblows differently. Kendo inherits most strongly from itto ryu kenjutsu, which emphasizes distance control, continuous attacks, and kiriotoshi: an attack down the center line which simultaneously deflects the opponent's sword and cuts. The zanshin rule in kendo confirms a valid strike as a point and is how we handle afterblows. Zanshin requires that we remain in the fight physically and mentally which means that we either 1) pull distance, 2) charge to grapple, or 3) assume a posture to strike again e.g. jodan. As you have observed 2 & 3 create artefacts since we symbolically enter stages of combat without execution. The rule could been more strict and we could have said "any afterblow cancels the point". This however creates its' own artefacts, notably it encourages "afterblow specialists" who rely on this dead man's switch and forces the meta to one of hand sniping rather than attacking confidently. There is nothing wrong with this solution, indeed it seems to be the meta of the jikishinkage ryu sparring system, however like I stated we draw more heavily from itto ryu.
If. . . just if that longsword dude wore plates armor and chain armor like a knight, could that kendo guy win ? I'm just curious and I don't think quick and lighting attack can harm a full armor knight
Works well in what context to be precise. Because i'm pretty sure if you replace the ARMA guy with someone from Fiore tradition, he would fight in a similar way to japanese swordmanship. Also HEMA have alot of weapons, not just the longsword. I guarantee if you used a military sabre or sword&buckler, almost all the kendo strategies are out the window
@@jaketheasianguy3307 Shows how little you actually know. Kendo also have a bunch of weapons. So against your o so mighty saber we have tanken, against buckler nito-ryu and so on and on.🥱
@@sevarogue7903 not trying to stir up a war here or trying to prove this is superior than that, aren't you ? Because that would very dumb, it's all comes down to the players
"We had his protective gear, but he didn't want to wear them"
Every HEMA/MArtial arts practitioner here: And he will regret it...
FYI, that guy is only one-year practiced guy, but he call himself as "Sword Master". He is member of ARMA, and Korean ARMA says, 'we don't use protection on practice'. I dunno why, maybe Korean ARMA or original ARMA thinks 'we're real deal, we're so cool, so we don't need any protect'. And other thing, he kicked out of ARMA due to bad behave and some kind of trollings.
All I usually wear is a mask, gloves, and arm guards. I don't mind hits to my body. Its my fingers and elbows I worry about lol
@@lunar2328 I'm the same I don't mind it makes you harder I only wear helmet gauntlets and shin knee protectors Ive done karate my whole life so getting flogged with kendo sticks is and rope is all part of conditioning
Vs shinai...meh. I have even done shinai sparring without a helmet or gloves. Don't do this at home and all that...but isn't bad barring hits to the eyes...which fyi is Don't Do This at Home. Vs wood or steel...yes.
@@kangyohea1182 Ugh, that is serious cringe. One year and already they think their a master? They never even thought of using low guard when getting their hips sniped.
I know this is a video just for fun but the kendo practitioner seems to be more experienced than longsword practitioner.
Definitely.
You are wrong, the longsword guy is one of the main dudes in ARMA Korea. This is definitely not his proudest moment, but I'd say it's mostly because his feet keep slipping. The kendo guy on the other hand had only been doing it for like 2 years at the point of recording IIRC.
@@penttikoivuniemi2146 @Pentti Koivuniemi @Pentti Koivuniemi do you have a link no or reference? Can't find anything on web looking for weaponism, this channel or your channel and looking for arma Korea led to a short thread on their website. Plus alot of drama last year caused them to kickout at least 1 person. And from the arma website it seems mostly self study as people were asking with a reference to "Casey" in Korea as a place to train near the dmz I guess. Plus dude is wearing socks on hardwood. Like. What? I wish they would give names or somn cu I wanna know who all these people are but mostly nameless fighters throughout most videos.
@@jamesquick9843 I don't know what any of these people are actually called, but here's the ARMA dude's TH-cam channel: th-cam.com/channels/iBi1kqLTry1hzKWuBwKwaw.htmlvideos
And this is the main channel that these clips come from: th-cam.com/users/hogucouple
@@jamesquick9843 The HEMA man in the video is the person who was kicked out of ARMA Korea. He disregarded ARMA's regulations and acted arbitrarily.
As an FMA and HEMA practitioner myself, watching our HEMA guy fighting out of measure and overextending trying to pull off a technique was quite painful. Still, props to both fighters. Kendoka is speed. Our HEMA guy just needs to spar more and get enough experience, I think he still did well regardless.
i dont think he's taking the fight as seriously as you did, seems like he's just having fun
the dude is using kendo style with a long sword
I am still new to HEMA, but that was very limited. Also all those low strikes; side guard to block those low strikes, and then guard more in fool. He kept going high, how many times does one need to lose to the same technique to know ox isn't working.
You're being too kind.
He may have been enthusiastic and put in a lot of effort, but the longsword guy:
(1) isn't wearing the correct gear, including shoes - causing him to slip.
(2) is too often off-balance
(3) over reaches too much with his strikes
(4) has poor distancing
I'm sure you can point out more flaws in his technique as you clearly know HEMA.
Those blunt metal wasters they use in HEMA are surely heavier than a kendo shinai. That's where the speed comes from I think. That and rigorous practice.
It was frustrating to watch the HEMA practitioner. It seems he was more focused on pulling off techniques he learned like zwerchau, and not maintain proper measure (maai in kendo), use the appropriate guard, and follow the proper beats (timing). It's like he forsook fundamentals and just tried to be fancy. It's like he knows Longsword cuts, but doesn't know swordfighting. If he was indeed just looking to show off unique techniques, why not wear body armor then? He's already giving up defense, he's already not maintaining proper distance or a guard. If you're just going for the fancy cut, and you're just going to tank hits, wear the damn armor. It's arrogance, really. It's like watching someone trying to write a complete sentence without knowing the language or the alphabet. :( Most frustrating was 2:11 where he tried to thrust forward from a high guard, when his opponent already had his sword forward ready to intercept. What is this clown thinking?
I have seen more video's of the hema practitioner, and he usely train outdoor with shoes on.
I dont think he is used to train Hema bare feet on such a smooth surface
It's as if he was disjointed in his movements, and he lacked the fuhlen or feeling of the fight.
That's just how most Korean HEMA practitioner's are like. Or also just how Korean culture works in general imo.
They value the "tradition" and "technique" over actual practice and application.
They place a weird priority over the written technique over actual application of said technique.
Maybe they're more historians than swordsman, as they place WAY too much value over historical texts and documents and dislike anything that doesn't follow said manuscripts.
They like being a "swordsman" but don't actually spar much. Mostly just practice techniques from manuscripts. And even if they do spar, it's mostly to practice said techniques from manuscripts. Rather than just sparring.
@@sjwoo13 there are those in the West who also fixate on the manuscripts as they know it in contrast to those who take a more athletic and pragmatic approach. Most of the manuscripts in HEMA however do include training tips on becoming brutally efficient. There really was no interest in "style" just efficiency when killing someone. For far too many, the intellectual exercise has become a priority over the practical application.
@@sjwoo13 no insult intended but thats what makes HEMA well HEMA. The manscripts are essential. Sparring is as well but tradition amd technique cannot be overvalued. Otherwise me might as well just do some stuff that "works".
With that said sparring is about learning what works and when. This guy might be testing some stuff etc. The travesty is really his refusaö to wear protection.
There is a whole section in Mayers Book on long sword fighting dedicated to "reizen" and "verführen", which in this case means "provoke" and "tempt", because its often more secure to react to an committed opponent. We see some long sword techniques in this video but not much of the actual concept of long sword fighting.
Not gonna lie, the animated hitboxes make this even more entertaining than it already is
It’s actually a good observation that longsword is more vulnerable at lower levels, at least the way this guy is doing it. I’m a novice at HEMA but my training in kenjutsu has taught me to fight lower, and I do catch a lot of higher level students off guard with blows to the hip and side. “He who brings their war high will be shamed below”.
This videos are so entertaining to watch, good thing this channel got recommended to me.
Kendo guy: Brutally decapitates someone
Also him: *OH YAAAYYY*
Well, one is using a 1200 gr practice sword with behavior really close to that of the actual weapon, and the other is using a 500 gr bamboo stick that handles nothing like the sword it simulates.
True, it's very hard to find suitable training sword when it comes to matchup like this. Kendoka only used to shinai and bokken, unless you could invest for them a feder katana, they won't use anything else
@@jaketheasianguy3307 The SIGI forge katana is 270euro, they can go ahead and buy it themselves or find a leaf spring manufacturer and customize 5-6 of those for that same price.
@@yanniskusogaki There's also the problem with traditionalists as well. Alot of guys who study japanese martial arts refuse to use any modern inventions, even synthetic bokken like the one from Cold Steel. If you ask them to use steel, they will either refuse or bring out a blunt real katana, it either that or bamboo/wood. This is why matchup like this are problematic in my opinion, unless the JSA practitioner is open minded, it will never be fair
@@jaketheasianguy3307 you are totally right! The problem is the rest of the gear as well. Because of this traditonalism you are "forced" to wear the japanese protection (don't get me wrong. I love the aestetic of them) but this is not practical at all when you want to sparr with real swords. This limited gear cuts your zones down to head and hands.... But we all know there is so much more to hit at a human body. :D
Lol thats negligible, so you’re saying lighter weapons > heavier weapons. Real Katanas in general are very light regardless so the transferability of skills would still be there, the european martial artist just got schooled
It looks like the longsword fencer is often striking with the flat of their blade when doing their thwart cuts.
That's because he is. They explain it in the full video on the other channel, they are trying to avoid breaking the shinai.
the longsword ones forgot to use the forbidden technique to instantly win the fight
pummel throw
He obviously didn't want to kill the guy. 😳
Woah there buddy you almost gave Satan a heart attack
I knew you were gonna say that!
You can see the long swordsman has accepted a strategy of attacking first. This is of course a disadvantage for him when meeting a kendo swordsman who almost always wait, evade and strike back. So the wisest strategy was that of the kendo practioner. You can also see the type of long sword technique used lacks a lot of necessary simultaneus defence.
Which is kind of ironic given that the entire concept of meisterhauen, the core of Liechtenauer systems, is simultaneous attack an defense! The longsword fencer seemed to know some longsword techniques but none of the systematic principles of longsword fencing. Also, kept attacking out of measure.
no its just because the longsword user is just not using offense he don't know how the long sword in offense. Also if the long sword put their guard up it will always hit kendo user.
th-cam.com/video/Q2BU1HnpmVM/w-d-xo.html he did not use this techniques to get advantages
@@im2randomghgh Yeah,, I also think that this is kinda a bad match, they should get someone who understands the longsword as much as the Kendo fencer clearly understands Kendo
Nah. This was just a huge difference in skill between the kendoka and the HEMA practitioner. Fighting defensively is very possible in HEMA.
Learn to feel. The word >>indes >Indes>indes >indes
This is the how you handel a german Longsword:
m.th-cam.com/video/mjT4JepA-Vc/w-d-xo.html
Someone did their research
Man, this kendo practitioner is fast
4:07 bro's stomach had turned into mash at this point xD super entertaining to watch them two go at it
My goodness, those do strikes. The bruises must have been legendary.
I did kendo before, and I am practicing Liechtenauer longsword rightnow. To fence with a kendo guy, you need to use more tactics, foucs on your footwork and be careful of the gap between Zufechten and Krieg.Try to do something during "Nachreissen". Zwerchau is geart but it needs to do some set up before you launch a zwerchau. Last but not least, don't get hurt in your training.
All those Do look amazing.
Nice one!
Idk...it seems to me the longsword guy is out of practice or not use to play with an opponent ... sloppy footwork, bad distance management, over exposed , huge openings... is it lack of experience or school of hema hard to say ... I wouldn't be better, I'm rusty AF I shouldn't really judge the guy
nice experiment doh I like the channel so far
Damn, I've seen alot of HEMA Vs kendo videos, and in most the kendoka loses, I think this guy won because he wasn't afraid to adapt to the different style. Nice sparring
The kendo that I am seeing here is quite standard, he is simply using more ōji-waza or counterattacks than shikake-waza or attacks of initiative on openings. This makes sense, given the different notions of an opening in *sport* kendo and HEMA, however...
In kendo, we only really begin instructing ōji-waza or counterattacks after the second rank called Ni Dan (in Japan: minimum age of fifteen, for late joiners this might be four years of consistent training) and then we don't really demand proficiency in ōji-waza until two ranks later at Yon Dan (minimum age of twenty, or perhaps ten of consistent training).
Low ranked kendoka don't defend because they haven't been taught how, and will jump into a closed guard because they have artificially high standards for what constitutes a valid counterstrike and believe that they can force an error. High ranked kendoka have accepted that competition kendo is a sport with rules, and don't often go outside of those rules to spar with HEMA fencers.
@@Ianmar1 yeah that makes quite a bit of sense, I don't know what rules kendo has, or what they are using in this bout but I've just started learning hema and reposting is one of the safest ways to land a blow because in hema after you attack there's still a short window of time for the other person to hit you so going for attack on preparation can be really risky, being taught the importance of Ripostes straight away in hema really makes the fact that you have to do it for years seem really strange considering that a parry and riposte feels so simple, I'm assuming because the shinai is much lighter than a hema synthetic making parrying less effective against one? That's the only possible reason I can imagine
@@jamiejames416 I assume that the light weight and balance of the shinai gives us more agility than one would have with a shinken. This probably makes blocks easier to avoid, but I don't think that this is what is happening. From my limited experience with kendo kata (standardized kenjutsu), iaido, and koryu (old school kenjutsu) I don't believe that the posture, stances, and strikes of competition kendo leverage this agility in the way that FIE fencing does compared to HEMA equipment. Indeed many of the compromises made in the kendo rules e.g. limited target areas had the purpose to remove finess in favor some psychological aspects of conflict e.g. seme (pressure??), tame (patience??), kime (intention??), and zanshin (awareness??). Taking no points from an elderly visiting sensei is a rite of passage for many overconfident new kendoka who push strenth and speed as far as it will take them.
I believe that in (at least) one very important way the longsword is a better fencing weapon than the shinken: blocking with a spring steel longsword might put a repairable nick in the edge, blocking with a differentially tempered shinken might tear irrepairable chunks from the edge. While both the longsword, and the shinken are two handed push-pull weapons, and human physiology remains pretty uniform across the users of each, I expect that differences in usage emerges from a de-emphasis on blocking when it is avoidable.
The reason that I believe for the de-emphasis is that swordsmanship is a (desired) side effect but not a primary aim of kendo. "The concept of Kendo is to discipline the human character through the application of the principles of the Katana." We strive never to block without counter attacking because that reveals a weakness of intention (kime), our actions should be deliberate. We strive never to counter attack unless we can do so successfully because that reveals a lack of patience under pressure (tame), we should act on the right opportunity. We strive to create our own opportunities by applying psychological pressure (seme) to our opponents, for this pressure to be meaningful our attacks must be effective. Counter attacks are than attacks of initiative: one must first successfully anticipate the opponent, make a successful deflection or evasion, make a successful attack of initiative, and finally close out (zanshin) any potential rebuttal. Mastery of counter attacks only comes after mastery of attacks. We ask beginners to first master attacks of initiative (attacks on preparation) because we are not teaching them how to survive a dual, we are teaching them the psychological aspects of dominating an opponent before and after the cut. Muddy, indecisive attacks are undesirable, and counterattacks even more so. I like to imagine a boxing school which only does light contact sparring, and only counts knockout punches. Why bother blocking except as a setup for a KO (judgement) attempt.
We don't emphasize blocks because we want to first master the counterattack which comes after the block.
@@jamiejames416 I just reread my previous response, and my goodness it is a mess. I will summarize:
1)The shinai is obviously more maneuverable than the shinken or a replica training sword, however as kendo techniques focus on moving the body rather than the shinai I do not believe that we exploit this advantage.
2)Historically defensive blocking with a shinken was risky and expensive since the forging process makes it brittle. Most kenjutsu requires that all blocks are offensive.
3)We postpone instructing counter attacks until after the kendoka has mastered attacks because a parry without a riposte is just a block. Since kendo is a sport, the rules could be written so as to penalize unsuccful defense moreso than unsuccessful offence.
"In most the kendoka is terrible or not actually a kendoka." Fixed it for you.
You are doing an amazing job, thanks for making and posting these vids. The expertise and long years and hours of hard work are evident. I have done experimental archaeology recreating 9th to 12th century Scandinavian weapons and armies, and quickly learned a sword is almost worse than an walking cane against steel armor (chain/lammelar/primitive brigandine). The Sword was the pistol of its time not a main battle rifle, a back up at most in a war setting. No army from antiquity till the rise of firearms carried swords as a primary weapon.
I know and armour wasnt given to every soldier most had just a shield and leather or chainmail....the spear hammer and axe were used more than a sword you would use your sword in one on one but never in battle unless you lost your spear but hopolites were there to rearm you so yeah
@@Glutahhn Depends on the sword and the period. The sword was definitely the main weapons of Roman legionnaires, some landsknechts, light cavalry etc.
No evidence that hammers or axes were more common than swords in most periods but spears DEFINITELY were. Not even comparable :)
I love your channel. I love all the fighters that you feature in your videos. As a longsword instructor I have serious problems with the way this longsword fighter chose to be equipped, and his tactical choices. It's clear they hadn't been training long when this was shot. Good on you for not breaking his bones lol.
Those body shots are savage af. Lovely.
i feel like there was some sort of attitude coming from the HEMA practictitioner prior to the fight cuz the kendoka seems to be hitting his hardest on each stroke like it was personal lol. So smooth ,swift and certain.
Bro is not dealing with his opponents sword at all. I need to wash my eyes.
We did it guys. We HEMA practitioners became more annoying online than katana worshipping weebs. Congrats. We all know about the weight difference between a feder and a shinai, we can all see the skill gap between these dudes, but we can't just ignore this video and move on with our lives. The time spent here complaining is the time you could've spent making fun of Fiorists, which is obviously more amusing.
I don't see a valid point here. Most comments are politely and correctly pointing out the lopsided matchup for the benefit of people who might not know the difference. You say we all know the difference but not everyone watching this is a HEMA student. Is it better to say nothing and let the clunky knight stereotypes return? And really is your complaining about their comments really a better use of time? Not trying to be rude here.
@@mysticmarbles I made this comment mostly as a joke tbh. But honestly who's gonna stop and look at a comments section and think "oh that makes sense"? We're all wasting time here, no amount of facts will convince internet trolls. I was just trying to be funny tho, not make a big critic about HEMA community online
@@yaleksander42 Fair enough. Some people do take the comments seriously though, as evidenced by all the long arguments on bigger channels. Even jokes are going to elicit "well akchooally" comments like mine so be prepared. :D
*breathing intensifies
*sweats
*pupils dialate
Kendo/kenjitsu has a much more robust and well established modern teaching history. HEMA is about trying to figure out how they fought back then and doing their best to put together training curricula and develop a pool of skilled instructors and experienced competitors. Something kendo already has.
It'd be interesting to see a similar matchup once (if) HEMA becomes more established and starts cranking out more consistently trained fighters.
Not taking anything away from the kendo person, I wouldn't want them mad at me...
HEMA at this point has already established a well foundation in their arts, they're not trying to figure things out by themselve anymore, that's from like 8 9 years ago. This guy is just bad and a show off. Alot of HEMA practitioners at first also have backgrounds from Japanese sword arts, sport fencing or Phillipino Arnis/Kali so they already know how to handle a weapon, they just use the old manual instructions to make their already well established foundation works with real steel blades
@@jaketheasianguy3307 They don't have the continuity of practice and lineage. Once the last person who knew it from someone who knew it from...on and on back to when it was first battle tested, dies...after that you're looking at pictures and trying to imitate them (with some written sources for context).
That's not remotely as good as having someone who didn't learn from a book, showing you how it's supposed to be done. I love HEMA but just like pankration, it's essentially an art raised from the dead and imitated as best we know how. Better than nothing, and HEMA has more written sources than pankration, but it's not as solid a foundation as like Kendo has from never actually dying out. Not even close.
If you measure from when they became consistently taught, HEMA is much younger than kendo, and needs time to mature and catch up. It's not a knock on it, just an observation.
@@bandit6272 This is just my opinion, but i think HEMA needs to grow out of tradition and lineage, follow the route like MMA now days. There's this conflict in the community that some guys said you must stick to what's written in the maunal because we're reviving a dead art as priority, using stuffs outside the source that works for you is not encouraged because people don't sword fights for real anymore. There's another group that said you just do what works best for you, if it helps you disable the opponent and end the fight, use it, even if it's not part of written tradition. The ARMA guy in the clip is the first type, where he stick to the source in a rigid way, show off techniques rather than fighting efficiently, which is why he looks terrible. My old martial art teacher once said when he was asked about his martial art lineage : "my lineage ? Is the one that gonna help you beat up the other person" and indeed he delivered just that
@@jaketheasianguy3307 That all depends on whether you care about the "Historical" part of HEMA, or the "martial arts" part of it.
Seeing as though longsword work is even less likely to come in handy in a modern combat situation, than empty hand or even knife based styles...that kind of leaves you with the "Historical European" part being the main distinction and draw; unless you think another generic way to wave a stick or sharp metal stick at someone is enough to build a viable art and community around...which I doubt.
That being said, I don't think there's one right answer. MMA is great, and I used to compete in it (very amateur though, lol), but it's very utilitarian, and so lighter on the "art" side than the "martial" side. Not everyone is going to want that same combination.
@@bandit6272 Just based on my experience, when people attracted to swordmanship, there's almost no one come in with the mindset of "sword fighting for self defense" but rather history or simply curiosity. But slowly sooner or later they would want to stop limiting themselve to old tradition written in the books and just want to use what works best for them in "a real duel", even though everyone agreed that a real sword fight in modern day is not goin to happen any time soon.
I think the Japanese have the correct mindset when it comes to this matter, where they used old arts of war to train their mentality stronger and more confidence in daily life. The training stay the same, just the goal is different
The point about wearing protective gear is a very good one.
I am 90% sure I saw that HEMA guy again in a later video - and the rate at which he improved can be best described as 'pretty insane'. Either enough things have clicked within a year, or the training methods + knowledge of his group really, really helped.
He is at a rather severe disadvantage here since he agreed to fight barefoot throwing off his footwork, and strike with the flat throwing off his bladework.
Why would he agree to go barefoot on such a slippery floor?
@@bobbrown3469 He was being polite. Dojo etiquette requires that you do not wear your outdoor shoes on the nice hardwood floors. Barefoot or tabi are preferred.
@@Ianmar1 Think the tabi might of been better idea 😅
The Longsword guy kept hitting flat a lot. A lot of extra strikes thrown as well. He seemed pretty reckless too.
He didn't wanna break his opponent's wooden sword.
@@aurourus6894 break? It's a dull blade!
@@lai_strength_training a steel dull blade Will break a very expensive kendo shinai since it's made of bamboo.
@@jaketheasianguy3307
- Bro, let's put money in. If you can break my shinai in less than 3 strikes. I give you 100$. If you can't, buy me 1 new one (around 10$). Use a hammer if you want.
- You are Asian but don't know how durable bamboo is?
- If you are not confident, buy a cheap shinai and test it yourself before taking a deal.
@@aurourus6894
- Nah, he is just bad.
- Read the cmt section. A lot of people know him in real life too.
The zwerchhauw technique is definitely a kendo-killer. Happens every time I see a kendo vs HEMA matchup.
The kendoka is very honourable though. The longswordsman chose to forgo his protective gear, so it would not have been the kendoka's responsibility to soften his strikes. Still, the kendoka held back to avoid injury. Great sportsmanship.
The longsword guy is also slowing down a lot. Kendo protective gear don't offer enough protection for full speed sparring with steel feders. That's why everyone is ordering SparringGloves(TM) and SPES jacket from Poland
Both swordsman connecting with signature strikes. Beautiful!
I'd say you have to be quite experienced and well trained in order to pull off such a technique effectively
Now this is really MMA
Good edits and entertaining bouts!
i think this is great proof that one style and sword is not better than the other, its just different and how people adapt to opponents of differing styles.
Great videos. Keep them coming.
I do liechtenauer but really want to get into kendo because I'm interested in Japanese culture. Can you do kendo with a real katana? Was it historically done with a real katana? Could you easily kill someone with kendo?
I hope that you do take up kendo, I absolutely love it!
I would like to manage your expectations however so that you can appreciate it for what it is without disappointment for what it is not.
Kendo is not and does not contain a faithful combat simulation.
Since you are coming from Leichtenauer, you are likely very familiar with the HEMA sparring system(s) and you will almost certainly find what we do in kendo to be unrealistic e.g. limited target areas, very strict quality of strike criteria, and handling of doubles. As I understand it, the primary purpose of sparring in HEMA is to validate the interpretation of techniques. The primary purpose of sparring in kendo is very different: our techniques come from many unbroken lines of masters so we do not have a sharp need to validate interpretations, instead we have specialized our system for developing the psychological aspects of swordsmanship. Historically, life and death combat was won and lost more often due to the four sicknesses - Shikai (四戒): Surprise (Kyou / 驚), Fear (Ku / 懼), Doubt (Gi / 疑), and Confusion (Waku /惑) than they were any degree of skill. While kendo cannot recreate the experience of having one's life on the line, you will learn self control and meditation under stress. In my opinion shinai kendo is also the best martial art for developing seme (pressure), tame (vigilance), and kime (intention), and fosters mushin or the ability to act without thinking which I believe is similar to Leichtenauer's indes.
Kendo is a standardized kenjutsu system which was developed in institutions rather than ryuha so that the police, the military and eventually high school students would have something which they could train together, irrespective of which koryu kenjutsu style each individual belonged to. The modern emphasis is on developing a strong body and mind by way of studying the sword, but many early practicioners were part of the battotai and had used swords in battle.
Modern kendo consists of four pillars: kihon, kata, shiai, and shinsa. Kihon are your fundamentals, and includes big techniques which develop strength and coordination for cutting but are not believed to be competitive in shiai. Kata are our forms and our connection to traditional kenjutsu, here we train with the bokuto, practice correct cutting mechanics and study how kendo can be applied to the sword. Shiai is the most well known sporting component of kendo, it is the closest experience to shinken shobu that we are able to get, thus an important part of our warriors journey. Shinsa are our examinations where we show off our best and most refined kendo.
We do not train with steel, sharp or otherwise, although you will sometimes see highly advanced kendo sensei perform the kendo kata with sharp swords. If you are interested in using a steel sword we recommend that you also train iaido, which is primarily solo kata but goes into the subtleties of using and caring for a sharp sword in much more depth. Kendo and iaido are companion arts and are often refered to as "two wheels on a cart" or "two wings on a bird" or "two sides of a coin" etc.
This was beautiful.
It's true that it's not about the sword, its about the one who use it.
It doesn't matter which sword is better, the katana or longsword, what matters is the one who wield it
Great video and examples of techniques.
Hema techniques look good but I think it comes down to the training regimen. Hema is something that has only recently resurrected the old sword arts of the west.
Why did the hema practitioner not end the kendo practitioner rightly?
this is one of the not so many videos that show a kendoka defeats a longsword wielder. Despite the lack of reach, range and maneuverability of the shinai, only the skills of the fighter that matter.
This was an interesting match up. Two very proficient swordsman. It was a test of the long sword.
like 2 jedis before the light-saber was invented.
Hi waist is open everytime he does a fleche, and that isn't something i feel is apporpriate in longsword fighting.
There are plenty of other guard he could have used.
Mongolia imported katana from Japan in the 13th century. Until the 1960s, Mongolian cavalry used katana on the battlefield. Since they were mercenaries of the Chinese government, the Chinese government public relations magazine described Mongolians with katana. China also had a longsword-like sword, but in the 11th century it imported katana from Japan, and in the 16th century the Chinese army used katana.
I felt bad for the kendoka because he was clearly holding back to because the HEMA guy wouldn't wear gear... which is weird because I've never seen a HEMA fighter spar without gear
I don’t want to rag on the guy too hard, but he comes across as someone who just left the beginner phase and is feeling his oats a little. If he has any brains at all, he won’t make that mistake twice, especially against a more experienced fighter.
FYI, that guy is only one-year practiced guy, but he call himself as "Sword Master". He is member of ARMA, and Korean ARMA says, 'we don't use protection on practice'. I dunno why, maybe Korean ARMA or original ARMA thinks 'we're real deal, we're so cool, so we don't need any protect'. And other thing, he kicked out of ARMA due to bad behave and some kind of trollings.
@@kangyohea1182 They probably think they're better than the people they spar with since the people they spar with are worried about hurting them.
Experienced kendo vs amateur Hema can't make comparison and also not enough protection for that kind of dual
Kendo guy had about two or three years of experience at this point. He is skilled, but he is not winning any competitions which are not explicitly for beginners.
Kendo guy wasn't counting multiple hits by thrusts and on his hands and head. Most of his hits were after already being touched on the head.
Crazy you aren't wearing body armor. I wonder if you went short with the long sword (with one hand on the base of the blade), would you get the speed to parry the kendo attacks?
I practice myself and that kendo practitioner guy is real good !
Why korean swordmanship uses japanese style?
Is it because of japanese influence during their korea occupation in early 1900s? Or their first invasion at the end of 1500s?
Humans only have 2 arms and 2 legs, the basic of using 2 handed swords are the same across the world. Besides China Japan and Korea are close partners and enemies, they traded cultures with each other alot, so their styles influenced each other
Kendo is popular in SK, and equipment is also very cheap there (can get very affordable Chinese kendo gear in SK). A guy at the dojo was there just two weeks ago.
In HEMA every exchange must end in a zwerchopter
The longsword has this advantage, you can hit with both sides of the sword it is double edged, so you are gonna abuse quite much in the after blows, ping pong, straight up it's too much pressure in the after blows.
With the katana you get stronger parries due to the shorter length of the sword and it's faster to parry with.
Katanas generally do quite badly when colliding with another sword, because that's not what they're designed to do. They're super-agile weapons that allow a lethal cut while drawing them, not sabers for fighting a sustained duel.
@@belgiumbunlover5787 Sorry i didn't get notified about this comment, and yes you are right about what you are saying i made my research on that.
Great practice!
a very strange fight, the swordsman always la very strange fight, the swordsman always lets the kendo player get very close. due to the lack of a developed guard on a Japanese sword, you can simply stabets the kendo player get very close. due to the lack of a developed guard on a two-handed sword, you can simply stab
Oh? Korea practices HEMA as well? I did not know this was a thing in Korea.
The Hema guy did really good. It's simple though that the kendo guy simply has more sparring time in. I wish the Hema guy could put on some actual armor more and train more at the level that the rest of hema worldwide does. His adherence to the historical "practice ways" IE: with minimal armor and protection is hurting areas of his knowledge. Like has been mentioned before, timing, distance, decisiveness.
Except he does fence with gear, he owns a club and a big youtube channel and theres plenty of footage of him sparring in lots of situations. It really does just look like he's playing here. Not to suggest that he's some master fencer who's hiding his true skill level, it just looks like the two people are treating the bout differently
@@thomastucker7317 fair
Great stuff guys, nicely done but I can't help but echo the many comments about longsword guy's attitude regarding the fight especially after learning that he didn't want to wear PPE
Tsk tsk.
the swing of that kendo user was so powerful and fast compare to that heavy ass bamboo sword, that is impressive
The bamboo sword is the kendo user🤦🏾♂️
I just think the Kendo guy is doing more quality strikes to the stomach. The longswords man is getting face shots though. Alot of the stomach attacks came from a high block or even receiving a face strike and exchanging a blow to the longsword fighters stomach.
I think stomach attacks a very risky to end in a double !
The kendoka is at an advantage having only a shinai which weighs significantly less than the long sword. The other thing is sashi cuts will not kill somebody quickly, or not at all. Kendoka needs to drive the sashi cut, hit target and hold the sword there and use body forward momentum to slice thru the head, or wrist/arm etc.. not do typical kendo cut and then remove the shinai from the target after impact. Suppose its just the kendokas muscle memory training doing the way he was trained the modern kendo way, the koryu way is brutal, why go for top of head when can stab the face... Seeing other long sword users it also appears this user isnt as skilled.
The Kendo guy seemed more skilled overall, both styles are effective and it depends on the skill level of the individual.
Longsword: Whirls around enemy sword to hit.
Kendo: Oh yay!
That federschwert is really whippy. Probably didn't help.
Блин, как же это круто!
К сожалению, способности у них не равные в спарринге. Старай ХЕМА парень сильнее, то, может, он бы смог действительно показывать его навыки, но это не был случай. Кендо парень намного лучше другого. Это ясно. Хотя этот спарринг бы смог быть лучше, но мне все-таки это понравилось.
@@Madchemist002 хотелось бы мне... Очень бы хотелось заниматься такими дуэлями с юности.
Kendo guy was FAST. The hema guy was definitely less experienced
Man this is hard to watch. Boy over here first of all should've worn his gear, secondly, really doesn't seem to understand the things he's trying to pull off. Kendo is designed to be reactive and he just keeps bumbling right into it
A fun test but perhaps not a good style comparison. The deck is stacked one sided here. For one the kendoka is using an unrealistically light weapon that allows him to complete a strike before the longsworder is able to complete his strike. Either give them both light or properly weighted steel weapons, I don’t care which. Two the kendoka is clearly more skilled. No offense to the longsworder but but he would be considered a beginner in my club. I’d like to see the test repeated with the guy from Longsword Korea, or even just someone who places in tournaments.
4:21 long sword technique is not vulnerable to waist attacks, for some reason they will not take a frontal low guard. He should have taken a more defensive act against you to counter your speed, clearly being aggressive all the time isn't working as much as he wishes it did. *me watching and screaming* "low guard! add low guard to your movements and stop those hip snipes already!"
The experience gap is palpable
Why does the Kendoka sound like Babu Frick?
Idk who that longsword fighter is, but in my opinion, he needs to practice more... His range control needs work. As they say "if you rush from above, you'll be shamed from below"
Source: I teach longsword
Knife vs kendo. Plis!
Some of the Liechtenauer practitioner's strikes were not edited to look like it struck whereas the Kendo practitioner's did. For example, at 1:38, Longsword guy lands a SOLID Oberhau to the head, but the edit emphasizes the Kendo guy's strike. 1:48, Longsword guy gets a nasty thrust to the throat and Kendo guy gets a good head strike too, but the edit is biased. 2:36 as well... Shinai also has a good sound feedback *THWACK* + the Kiai (the shout) from the Kendo guy makes this fight seem one-sided.
The wooden sword is much lighter than steel which gives him a speed advantage
They have tested this in a video titled:
"Can kendoka use KATANA as fast as a shinai?"
but I cannot seem to post the link.
Kendo Guy has STYLE.
Do you not count double hits
You should have got a Viking guy to fight with the long sword. LOL
I'm an aikidoka/ bjj-ka and wish there was a kendo or HEMA place need me. It looks so fun.
Look for a larping community. I don't have a hema. Club but many LARPers train in it. Pvc pipe, pipe foam, and some friends are all you need
larp can be fun but can also be toxic. depends on the group. Hema can be fun, can be toxic depends on the group. I would say if you want more martial go hema, if you want more fantasy/whatever go larp.
@@fencerguy279 yeah I've met a few that don't like going outside of tournament rule sets, one sword and board who hated getn pushed over (big guy no balance) and a rapier user who really hated slashes. Would only count stabs. But you take the good with the bad I guess. You got any good stories?
@@jamesquick9843 haha sounds like sca not hema ;)
@@fencerguy279 you would be correct. My bad for the confusion
I think The HEMA guy is having problem with the slippery floor and not being able to fight properly.
Wheres his shoes?? Ofcourse barefeet will slip
Dude was sparring and having fun,
There were countless thrusts and hits by the longsworder that should have been counted. Almost like this channel is biased or something ...
We should combine the techniques of both the weapon systems...!! 😎👍👍
There already is quite a bit of overlap
The only techniques difference you'll see are because of each systems weapon design. A katana wouldn't be able to perform a false edge cut for example.
Why does the HEMAist just attack with Oberhau and Zwerchhau? They could throw the kendo person like a bag of beans in some situation.
This guy is just bad and a show off. He knows how to use the sword but terrible at fighting with it. Replace him with someone actually skilled like Arto Fama and the result will be drastically different
@@jaketheasianguy3307 Shit take tbh, 'just replace him with one of the best in the world', you could say the same on the kendo side. HEMA in general is a young practice, HEMA is South Korea is even younger. That said, the longsworder here has a youtube channel and he actually looks pretty good. Probably doesn't hold a candle to Martin Fabian, but who does? He's definitely better than he appears in this video, he looks like he is being much more playful and explorative than the other guy.
@@thomastucker7317 Yes, that was a terrible take from my side, i admitted it. The moment i wrote it, i was kinda triggered seeing alot of people here used the ARMA guy as an example of how every single HEMA swormen would fight
@@jaketheasianguy3307 I think your point is valid, it was just a bad example. If they just got someone with some tournament experience I think it would be a better matchup. This HEMA guy seems to have had a lot of drill time but not as much time sparring a resisting opponent. He seems to ignore what the opponent is doing and blindly continues his attack as if he's doing it on a dummy. This goes against the principles of Lichtenauer which tell you to provoke them out of their advantage and occupy their blade before you launch your true attack.
Czy ten człowiek z długim mieczem zna tylko dwie techniki ?
From my point od view, the kendo guy had bad conception of how the real sword fight is about. After each strike he made, he alsow was hit by a afterblows. He just want to hit oponent, but he forgot that most important thing is to not be hiten ! The didnt cover himself after atacks, and for me it looks more like a olimpic fencing then the real fight.
That is a common and fair critique which is very hard to handle in any competitive fencing system.
Different systems handle afterblows differently. Kendo inherits most strongly from itto ryu kenjutsu, which emphasizes distance control, continuous attacks, and kiriotoshi: an attack down the center line which simultaneously deflects the opponent's sword and cuts.
The zanshin rule in kendo confirms a valid strike as a point and is how we handle afterblows. Zanshin requires that we remain in the fight physically and mentally which means that we either 1) pull distance, 2) charge to grapple, or 3) assume a posture to strike again e.g. jodan. As you have observed 2 & 3 create artefacts since we symbolically enter stages of combat without execution.
The rule could been more strict and we could have said "any afterblow cancels the point". This however creates its' own artefacts, notably it encourages "afterblow specialists" who rely on this dead man's switch and forces the meta to one of hand sniping rather than attacking confidently. There is nothing wrong with this solution, indeed it seems to be the meta of the jikishinkage ryu sparring system, however like I stated we draw more heavily from itto ryu.
Weakest liechtenauer fighter:
If. . . just if that longsword dude wore plates armor and chain armor like a knight, could that kendo guy win ?
I'm just curious and I don't think quick and lighting attack can harm a full armor knight
Why did the swordsman every time rushing and trying to get close to samurai?) school of "lonely suicidal jaguar"
I'm an aikidoka/ bjj-ka and wish there was a kendo or HEMA place near me. It looks so fun.
Who knows what this technique is called? When you block opponent's strike and hit him in the stomach
It called 'Men kaeshi do'
Fantastic demonstration of skill on both sides
That's why plate armour
사칭 + 불펌 채널인줄 알고 신고할랬는데 찐이었네 ㄷㄷ
He didn't use caviarzone
For the love of god put a mat down, he's sliding around like the floor is greased.
Because the floors waxed and hes barefoot
In reality the guy using the long sword your dead 10 sec ago. head is cutoff.
Yup, Men-kaeshi-do (Men-nuki-do also) works well against HEMA practitioners.💪
Works well in what context to be precise. Because i'm pretty sure if you replace the ARMA guy with someone from Fiore tradition, he would fight in a similar way to japanese swordmanship. Also HEMA have alot of weapons, not just the longsword. I guarantee if you used a military sabre or sword&buckler, almost all the kendo strategies are out the window
@@jaketheasianguy3307 Shows how little you actually know. Kendo also have a bunch of weapons. So against your o so mighty saber we have tanken, against buckler nito-ryu and so on and on.🥱
@@sevarogue7903 not trying to stir up a war here or trying to prove this is superior than that, aren't you ?
Because that would very dumb, it's all comes down to the players