It is a recurring theme in Star Wars (especially in Canon) that the Empire is an inherently corrupting organization. You can be a "good Imperial", but you cannot STAY a good Imperial - at some point something will be demanded of you that makes you cease to be either good or an Imperial.
Hopefully with the somewhat more mature tone of the Live Action SW world they can make Thrawn more of a complex villain and less one-sided Bad guy. Not that his portrayal in Rebels was bad, I really appreciated his more calculated, tactical approach as it provided something different for the Rebels to face.
@@KoalaTContent I mean he didn't just find the rebel base, he completely annihilated a rebel cell(+ much of another). There aren't many in the Empire capable of doing that in a single battle.
Not gonna lie, it feels like a real pity that Rebels didn't have a good opportunity to have Thrawn and Kallus compare notes on the morality of serving the Empire versus betraying it, because I bet that would have been a pretty enlightening conversation about where Thrawn's head was at.
The topic you speak of is sort of covered between Nightswan and Thrawn (during the climax of the 2017 Thrawn novel), but I agree with you nonetheless: Kallus and Thrawn definitely do need another opportunity to reunite and assess each other's current motivations/goals/morality (e.g. "Rangers of the New Republic").
I will say that even canon book Thrawn is not an out-and-out hero. He does state that his main motivation for sparing lives is because most people can be useful assets in the future, and in his conversation with Nightswan he does talk about destroying dissent if it goes against his goals. But yeah, he is definitely not as cruel as the tv version.
@@evanceier8577 Yeah I agree. But I might be reaching but I also feel like he views very few but notable individuals such as Eli and Faro very highly. On par with the chiss even, but I might be reaching especially with Faro.
"I've never really heard anyone else complain about it" just about every Thrawn fan I know has complained about this extensively. granted it's a niche issue but avid fans are definitely annoyed by this inconsistency
I want to see a Thrawn and Ezra show where they argue and fight but they slowly grow to understand each other. Like a sitcom on an abandoned planet with Thrawn and Ezra.
I don't find it likely as Thrawn has resurfaced in The Mandalorian, where Ahsoka is hunting him, which doesn't feel like something Ezra would be a fan of
@@JonathanLundkvist One of the most essential interesting parts of the the original Heir to the Empire trilogy was the uneasy dynamic/"alliance of convenience" between C'baoth (the Dark Jedi/other main villain of the trilogy) and Thrawn; I wonder if Ezra is intended to become the heroic/antiheroic counterpart of C'baoth? (though personally, I'd instead prefer that our hypothetical "Disney canon" C'baoth instead turn out to be a clone of Dooku, since Dooku's charm/talent at politics makes for the perfect foil for Thrawn, who's good at military tactics while sucking at politics)
All Star Wars Stories come from a Certain Point of View. Like Obi Wan Says in Return of the Jedi, when Luke confronts Ben about Vader being his father. Vader goes from ultimate baddie to someone who can be saved. So it would make sense in REBELS Thrawns the villain, because we are seeing things from the rebel point of view. In the Books we see everything in Thrawns point of view which is why we get the snippets of his thoughts like they come from his memory or a journal.
If we are in the rebels point of view then how do we see things the rebels never even seen. Im pretty sure there isn't a rebel hidden 9n every star destroyer. Lets stop trying to make senseless head cannon and just admit it's shitty writing😂
@@pabl0sauced0 Not what he said. "Like Obi Wan Says in Return of the Jedi, when Luke confronts Ben about Vader being his father. Vader goes from ultimate baddie to someone who can be saved."- the entire movie isn't what Luke sees, your inventing an argument to argue against. The show is called REBELS not REBELS and their off and on again not evil antagonist Thrawn
This has been bothering me as well. In my mind in the rebels finale Thrawn is targeting empty building or places where there are no to few civilians on Lothal and just putting on a show for Ezra, we just dont see his perspective. I hope we get to see more of his heroics in live action
I see Thrawn more that he chooses the most efficient path for his decisions. In the Ascendancy his hands are tied with a lot of rules of engagement so he's always looking for the most efficient solution that he is allowed to do but in the Empire he has no limits so he has no problem taking the efficient route by just killing a person.
@@mightheal In the most recent book, Greater Good, he goes significantly out of his way to prevent a group of refugees from killing themselves when they think that their planet has been destroyed. He all but directly disobeys orders to take them back to their planet and investigate whether or not its truly unsalvageable and there aren't any others alive, despite protests from their leader. Because the idea of so many people dying based on a mistaken perception doesn't sit right with him. It wasn't efficient and it skirted the boundaries of what he was authorized to do by the EDF, but he did it because he didn't want so many needless deaths.
@@Iacedrom54 He's using them as his excuse to get around the Ascendancy's rules of engagement. His warning flag was raised when finding out that the Nikardun tried to kill them, so he needs to go to their planet to find out why. I honestly don't think he cares that much if they kill themselves just as long as he gets what he wants from them.
@@mightheal That's not what it says in the books and he goes to great lengths not just to investigate and help the group but to keep individual members of their group from dying if possible. You can assume he's lying, I guess, but he's pretty upfront with Thalias in both books and it still seems like way too much effort just for an investigation, if he didn't care about their lives at all.
The most interesting solution for any future appearances would be to present him as the villain, but to make whatever lurks in the Unknown Regions the real threat in the end. His origins, knowledge, tactical genius and unique position between the Empire and the Ascendancy would be way more effective for opening up further story lines than just saying "blue man bad, we kill him and we win". I really do hope Filoni understands that Thrawn has become way more than what he may have read 30 years ago. Also, Zahn's version of Thrawn & Ezra's Space Whale Adventures when???
I think you're right about the difference. I also think Mr Zahn wants to continue to be able to write Thrawn and be involved, but if he hinted at frustrations or displeasure at how the character was handled he might very well lose his ability to continue to write him. I feel the same as you - it doesn't really matter. It does make me a bit sad to think people won't understand why he's such a great character.
I personally didn’t find him inconsistent, at least in the Disney canon. The most cruel thing we see him doing in Rebels is that he made a mole in the Imperial Factory on Lothal kill himself with one of his defective speeders, and tbf, although he would have still been imprisoned (and everything that comes with that in the Empire), the mole could have admitted it and stop with the test-trap. The bombardment to Lothal was cruel, but again, he knew threatening innocents would be the weakness of the Rebels (at the end of the Thrawn novel, he had left his damaged escort ships vulnerable to attack but he knew Night Swan’s honor would prevent him from attacking them, an incalculable risk to external eyes) and we as the audience don’t know if he had analyzed a way to bombard zones that would drop casualties to a minimum. Other than that, to me it is pretty much the same Thrawn from the canon books but seen from the Rebels perspective, thus we don’t get to see his motivations and thoughts or the way he treats his subordinates, only an antagonistic force for our heroes to overcome.
Just asking Isn't in thrawn book canon treason Palpatine was adament for bringing some how in the destroyer and you can't disobey emperor's direct order , and he bombarded it? Also the factory mole made a mistake not an error
@@squallstopher608 yeah exactly A scout trooper could have been injured They also sabotaged the walker So thrawn knew instead of arresting , showing what a trooper face in battlefield is more explainable to them
I was first introduced to him in the first canon Thrawn book. I loved that he was baffled by the Empire’s lack of focus on civilians. He was an honorable warrior who fought his way to rise through the ranks and earn his position
It was a very conscious decision. The original author was asked to create an antagonist to give the New Republic a credible and different obstacle to the interference or manipulation of force wielders. Ergo, Thrawn-calm, thoughtful, inciteful, mentoring, and erudite. By rights, these attributes earned him loyalty. However, psychologically these traits would also yield a principled, and even compassionate person, if perhaps draconian in some measure. I think the author was happy to explore these facets of Thrawn. Yet, Disney and all neatly packaged stories of a type need an antagonist who is clearly defined to give the heros more meaning and make their struggles more compelling to the reader/viewer. It was expedient to take the Thrawn of the 90's trilogy minus any of the author's further fleshed out and well reasoned traits in his newer 2 Thrawn trilogies and continue, either ignoring the intervening evolutions, or opting to try to revisit them later, explaining that the Emperor's manipulations had pushed Thrawn beyond his limits, "twisting" his moral compass. (After all, that is the meaning behind the name.) I think we are likely to have in Thrawn a sort of Colonel Nicholsen, Bridge on the River Kwai, moment.- A crushing realization that the good man he had been, he had betrayed, his care for his own people, everything for which he'd set out, left home to save, even the Empire he served for the purpose of securing, all of it, he had betrayed.
Thanks for your video! I also grew up reading Thrawn in Heir to the Empire, and have loved Zahn's books since then. The inconsistency has bothered me - doesn't feel fair to Thrawn's character. For example, in Rebels S3:E5 Hera's Heroes Thrawn loses his cool when his captain talks about destroying the Kalikori as a piece of "Alien trash". Nowhere in the books does Thrawn let his emotions get the better of him, (in a big way like that), before or after that moment in the cannon Trilogy written by Zahn. I appreciate the explanation of how Thrawn has been twisted by continually serving under the Emporer...it just seems apparent that Zahn and Filoni did not see totally eye-to-eye on Thrawn's portrayal. Overall Thrawn was introduced in a net-positive way, but yes, the inconsistency is there as a detriment.
Let's put it like this: Thrawn is designed to be a Villain, but because of his own moral compass he shouldn't agree on everything the Empire wants and have an own point of view constructed by logic, brilliant tactical thinking and his alliance with his species.
I think part of this comes from the ways over the years that certain fans (and to a lesser extent, Zahn himself) have allowed his cool factor to make them forget his evil status. Thrawn can provide whatever rationalizations he wants, but the fact is that a defining aspect of his character in both continuities is a willingness to kill people in the name of preserving a military dictatorship. He's not usually cruel or vindictive, but his central philosophy is amoral pragmatism which, because of his perception of which side is "prudent" to work with, causes him to commit evil deeds. That sort of works both ways. Thrawn can rationalize any evil deed he does as being the best thing for the Chiss or the galaxy, but he also rationalizes any "good" (or less evil) thing he does as well. He won't say "it would be wrong to bombard that city", he would say "it will not be productive to bombard that city." He wasn't against the Death Star because it was a horrific weapon of mass murder - he was against it because it cost too much and was a big single target. Is there ever a time Thrawn takes an actual moral stand, doing something sub-optimal (not costless, but actively costing something) because it is the right thing to do? I'm not aware of any, at least during his Imperial tenure. The way I see Thrawn, he is pretty consistently evil not because of his intentions, but because of his actions. Again, he's a master of rationalization, but those rationalizations don't matter to the people he kills and the worlds he tries to oppress. Almost everything he does (at least after the start of his Imperial service) makes the galaxy a worse place, and he could see that if he chose to. To me, the core of this dichotomy of "hero" and "villain" Thrawn is that he is evil that is good at telling itself it isn't evil, and he sweeps up a lot of fans in the process.
I agree that there are inconsistencies, and have pretty much come to your conclusion as well. Working with the Empire and the Emperor has changed him and made him a much darker character. It kind of reminds me of any of the Legends stories where a Jedi goes to the dark side to try to defeat it from within and ultimately fails and becomes the thing they were fighting against. That feels like Thrawn's story, just without the force involved.
I was thinking about this not that long ago, and the rebels finale bothered me as well. My guess is that, if Zahn gets to write about Thrawn after rebels, he'll explain it as Thrawn having prepared his targets and actually fired at empty buildings or something along those lines, just to make Ezra comply.
Isn't it explained in the third Thrawn book though? The Emperor threatens him with execution or expulsion if he doesn't abide with the ruthless tactics of the Empire. He becomes frusturated and "goes against his own morals and goals" for the sake of staying in the Empire.
@@kungolaf4499 I don't remember exactly because I read it a while back, but I think that part was more about him working with the Chiss and where his true allegiance lays rather than about whether he was ruthless or not.
@@kungolaf4499 I believe you're right. He caught flak for letting the Rebel leadership escape from Attolon and well Palp doesn't give second mercy. Plus the survival of his precious TIE Defender project was at stake so he really had to step up and give the Emperor results he wanted, collateral be damned
@@Kofdoom1 Yes but he needed to prove his loyalty to Palpatine. And that would happen through Tarkin-esque brutality of obliterating civilians and stepping out of your moral comfort zone to achieve what is necessary.
I would really like to see Canon explore the grey more, with generationist Imperial officers, Rebels like that one cell in Rogue One, and Thrawn. The people trying to do the right thing through methods others find questionable in themselves. There's a lot of potential here, and I'd love to see it explored.
I also think that the context of Thrawn firing on Lothal is important to remember. Palpatine was directly interested in the events happening, his royal guards were on Thrawn’s ship and Palpatine was there in hologram form for a good chunk of the events as well. I don’t think it’s a big leap to assume that Palpatine told Thrawn how he wanted things done and Thrawn is definitely smart enough to know that disobeying Palpatine isn’t a good idea, even if he doesn’t want to do what he’s being asked to do. Basically his boss was breathing down his neck about doing this whole bombardment thing right.
Exactly, I seem to recall that at the end of "Thrawn, Treason", Palps said he wanted Thrawn to get Bridger into the chamber by any means necessary... or words to that effect.
I have always looked at more villainous portrayal of Thrawn in Rebels as a pacing choice. I think it would've distracted from the story of they'd focused on his more heroic qualities. I do think we got glimpses of it. His outburst at that one officer who sneered at Twi'ilk art is much more sympathetic after reading chaos rising. I honestly have never held the execution of that one worker against him because even without the added context of the books there's no way Thrawn sees the guy as anything but a murderer. Just think of number of men under his command that died and it wouldn't surprise me if that number included fresh faced recruits.
"You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." But really, on certain sides of any war, you're not going to get a full picture. I feel storytelling in Rebels gives us the idealistic Rebel POV. But in the books, we see Thrawn more fleshed out, revealing a different side. I like how Rogue One uncovered a lot of the grey in the Rebel Alliance, without contradicting anything. I love the similar exploration in Inferno Squad. Good and evil intertwined in some measure.
I think the main reason for the differences is as simple as Rebels Y7 rating. The younger the target audience the more clear-cut the differences between heroes and villains. The older the audience, the more complex a character’s motoivations. If Rebels were for an older audience you might get to see a Thrawn closer to the books.
I'm not complaining all that much about Thrawn in Rebels, because in many ways he *is* a more complex character -- in comparison with his Imperial contemporaries. The vast majority of original Rebels villains have tended to be written as valuing their own egos over their competence as members of the Imperial 'elite." Tarkin, the Emperor and Vader are very much themselves, painted in broader strokes, which is fitting considering they were originally intended to be reminiscent of the 1940s Republic Studios serials baddies. Thrawn's character virtues -- his intelligence, his appreciation for art, and a talent for outthinking his opponents -- are very much in evidence in Rebels, but we also have to consider that Disney was aiming this series at a market segment dominated by early teen audiences who might not have the inclination to actually hunt out and read the Thrawn books. So of course the portrayal will have broader strokes, to communicate the essence of the character more quickly.
Love both the canon novels and Rebels, but I've absolutely felt this exact thing since the end of Rebels. Appreciate you sharing your question and Zahn's answer. I'm worried about how Thrawn will be handled by The Mandalorian/Ahsoka/Rangers of the New Republic, but also hope Zahn gets some novels to, as you said, write Thrawn's view of the events or surrounding events to his portrayal in the show. I try to shrug it off, but also feel it is another example that not all publication mediums are equal and I feel that is unfortunate for authors.
Thrawn is still a cold calculating sociopath in the books. He's very unempathetic and just cares about winning but we empathize because it's from his perspective.
I think the simplest explanation for why Thrawn seems more sympathetic in the books is because the books are largely from his perspective so we get to see more of his thought process and justifications for his actions. In the animated show, we only see him through the eyes of the rebels and other imperial officers so he feels more like a villain. Villains always seem less villainous when the story is told from their point of view instead of the point of view of their victims.
Much like Caleb Dune and Order 66, I just rationalize it basically as "Different stories need characters to do different things. So long as it isn't extreme and it makes sense then its whatever I guess" Edit: Remember, Lucasfilm views Star Wars as a mythology - character inconsistencies happen
The concept of a gradual descent into darkness, as Thrawn's time in the Empire corrupts him... I find that very interesting. I'm definitely on board for that!
I'm expecting Thrawn to be in panic mode by the time of his live action reveal and will be willing to do anything necessary to save the Chiss. Ar'alani hinted at Thrawn being too late in Treason. And the discussion about isolating Thrawn in Greater Good...well, that's all we need to know. By the time Thrawn abandons the Empire literally in Vader's face to save the Skywalkers in Alliances, I'm pretty sure his loyalties are still pretty clear. But absolutely right about making a deal with the devil, it's not going to end well for Thrawn and that's straight up just a tragedy.
its simple really zahn created the character so when he writes for him he paints thrawn as the hero who is always right with no real flaws beyond just not understanding politics or the force meanwhile filoni paints thrawn as the villain he was originally written to be.
Well i don’t really find him inconsistent. If I remember correctly it’s the Chiss people he talks about in the quote ate the beginning. And in chaos rising at the end when Thrawn talks to Ar'alani he mentions that he views other species as assets, he sees their art and culture but doesn’t see the individuals. Thrawn is willing to make sacrifices when it is required but he prefers to find ways around it. This is in stark contrast to Grievous for example who is very much ok with sacrificing entire ships if it means he wins or gets a tactical advantage.
I’ve read most of the books with Thrawn I read the heir to the empire trilogy and all of the new Thrawn that have come out and I’m at the end of rebels season 3 I have always like Thrawn and the way he works I didn’t notice he seems more evil in Rebels but I think the way he works things out in the book is pretty much the same in rebels and now that I hear your idea about he’s spent time in the evil empire and it’s rubbed off that makes a lot of sense I’m excited to hopefully see him in the Ahsoka series and hope whoever they choose to play him does there homework and reads every book he’s been in
I am sure I have read this somewhere as a comment a long time ago, but I loved the idea. I would love to see a Sherlock Holmes style tv show with thrawn as the lead. I don't know who you would have as the "Watson" character, depends on the timeline I would assume, before the OG Trilogy i would assume Eli Vanto and we would just have a show retelling the events of the first 3 books. I would PREFER a show based on the Ascendancy novels. Just give us a tv show that is so far removed from the rest of the galaxy that anyone could watch it. I basically just want a crime thriller set in the star wars universe.
I've always figured that Thrawn in Rebels is almost very closely associated with higher ranking officials in the Empire. That would force his hand as to how to deal with problems. His attack on Lothal is pretty much directly intertwined with the Emperor. He wants Ezra in order to access the secrets of the World Between Worlds and Thrawn is charged with that mission. The crew of the Ghost had also caused enough of a problem that the Emperor would want them and likely the planet to made an example of. If his choice is this "small" group of people versus his entire civilization if he fails, what choice do you think he would make? As for the future of his character? One of the bigger reasons I think the books Zahn is doing have a bigger meaning is timing. The new Thrawn trilogy was announced at New York Comic-Con in 2019. That is after the point that Filoni knew that Thrawn would be making an "appearance" in Mandalorian and likely after they have set-up the larger story for him in live action behind the scenes (they have to have an overall arc if they are doing three interconnected series). That might not mean anything, but the only new book series that are being released all tie into future shows. The High Republic novels will likely tie in somewhat with the Acolyte and Ronin is tied in with a story from Star Wars: Visions. The Alphabet Squadron books finished up a previously announced series and the new E. K. Johnston book is part of a series of Queen Amidala books. So in a year and a half they haven't announced any series that doesn't tie in with a Disney+ show. And the Thrawn trilogy is scheduled to conclude right before Boba Fett starts up this newer interconnected universe. Could be nothing but I think it is a possible clue that the books have an impact on the larger universe of media.
My look on this, in Rebels, Thrawn is a willing servant of the Empire which he believes is stronger than the Republic which preceded it to deal with the threats in the Unknown Regions. The Battle of Batonn isn't really inconsistent since Thrawn never addressed the reason for civilian casualties being so high with Pryce interjecting quickly about how there was no longer any rebel presence in that system. As for killing Sumar, I believe that actually doesn't clash with his views about taking another life since he was rooting out saboteurs who were indirectly killing Imperial troops. Lastly, the holding Lothal's capital hostage with his Star Destroyers was a sound tactic since he knew Ezra would not sacrifice the lives of his people.
Glad that you're investigating this - I've wondered if and how they would incorporate the Grysks with everything else in canon. Is Thrawn bothered about them still by the time we see him in the Ahsoka show or has he taken care of them already and is leading a new remnant of the Empire, thus returning us to that original time period of the Thrawn trilogy? I'm assuming he'll pop up in the Ahsoka show. And of course - where's Ezra? We'll see what happens!
What about Wullf Yularen in the 'is he good or bad?' category. He never struck me as a truly 'bad' guy in any of the Rebels shows or the couple of books I've seen him feature in.
Lars will always have a special place in our Star Wars hearts (for his performance in Rebels), but Benedict Cumberbatch and Pierce Brosnan make for nice alternatives, too!
@@whyuhatan Just Googled/found the article which mentioned Benedict's disinterest; what a darn disappointment. :( (though I can't blame him; I can certainly imagine how uncomfortable it would be to wear blue makeup all day while filming) Still though, here's to hoping that live action Thrawn lives up to (and possibly exceeds) all of our expectations!
I am really hoping we find Thrawn and Ezra working together. Like everyone is on a mission to save Ezra from Thrawn and they get there to find out they’re Allies now. I feel it would honor the books. Ashoka has a big view of her galaxy where as Thrawn has a view on an even bigger picture of the galaxy because he’s been a part of both his galaxy and the empires. All that to say, there is a lot of possibility and fun they can have with getting them all swept up on an adventure together and lead that into them all helping The Chiss.
What you said at the end is basically how I see things - Thrawn made a deal with the Devil, and while he hoped to use the Empire to benefit his people, it in turn changed him and desensitised him to things he may have disapproved of before. Like, think of the scene where he bombards the Lothal city - this is right after Thrawn Treason, where he's on knife's edge with the Emperor. He's not exactly in a place to be soft when his literal life is on the line, and him living or dying could change the tide of the Grysk war depending on what he has to do. So yeah, I think as he gains more power and becomes a bigger deal in the Empire, he has to basically compromise any moral qualities he has for what he sees is the greater good (huh, is this something that comes up in that novel?). One scene I remember well in the original Thrawn novel is that Eli Vanto actually disapproves of slavery, but Thrawn while trying to seem moral is still making justifications for it. He's not exactly ideal, lol. I think another factor could be something we've discussed with other issues concerning books and TV - unreliable narrators. Like the other examples of novels or comics not lining up perfectly, they could be explained because novels (and in Kanan's case, a literal flashback) enable the use of an unreliable narrator to justify the inconsistencies. Thrawn could be trying to make himself seem better in his mind than he is, maybe even trying to justify this to himself. As for Thrawn in the future... I do agree I'm mainly expecting him to show up as a villain in the New Republic era shows, so I'm not setting my expectations high. That being said... Cobb Vanth gives me hope they could incorporate aspects like the Chiss Ascendency and the Grysk war into these shows, and I feel not only would this be great for the books, but I think these extra things could be a way to make Thrawn more than just a big bad. Like, Thrawn could be someone that basically with whatever Imperial Remnant he has, believes the New Republic is too new and demilitarised to deal with the Grysk threat, so he basically has what may as well be an Empire of the Hand, taking over parts of the outer areas of the galaxy in the name of security (I also recall Giancarlo Esposito randomly saying that maybe Gideon wants to "save the galaxy", hmmmm). I think Thrawn can be an example of someone who is going to fight this larger threat, but because of what the Empire has done to him and his belief that the Grysk are too dangerous, he's someone who takes things too far, doing whatever it takes to beat them while ignoring the harm being done to everyone caught in the war raging on, both in the damage from battles and the cost of the order and security he's trying to provide on civil liberties. Well, that's what I'd do anyway, like you said he's most likely just gonna do a Heir to the Empire lol
Good news here is that Zahn is indeed getting consulted on Thrawn for the Ahsoka series! So there hopefully will be quite a bit more nuance in that show. On topic, I agree with your assessment and think that he was somewhat desperate after Treason. He was directly threatened by Palpatine and ending the Lothal rebellion kinda feels like a necessity for his continuous survival at that point, or at least the mere chance for it. I think that is a big part of it, plus what you said about him changing over his many years of service.
Filoni and other showrunners should consult with Zahn when including him in live-action in the future. I think he is way more interesting and nuanced in the books that he is in Rebels. Just my opinion :)
He doesn't? I read the first Thrawn book and he pretty much acts the same way in Season 3-4. He becomes more ruthless in Season 4, because the Emperor threatens him with expulsion or even execution if he doesn't abide by the Tarkin Doctrine. This happens right before the finale of Season 4 if I am not mistaken. Hence his frusturation at Pryce, "Who deserves what is irrelevant..." and bombarding of Lothal.
I always thought it's because Rebels is focusing on a younger target audience and that meant the villain needed to be more clearly 'evil'. I really hope that he will be depicted with more nuance in the live action show(s). Plus I hope hope hope that Zahn will have a say in his fate 🙏
I really liked your point that how he is depicted is dependent on whose viewpoint the store is being told from. Thrawn certainly does not view himself as the villain of his own story while his opponents certainly do
I’ve never really seen Thrawn as good or evil ... but pragmatic. He doesn’t want to take over the galaxy so it can be ruled with an iron fist. But damn it, he is going to take over whether you like it or not. He’s best characterized by what he told Nightswan about crippling another man so that the chasing monster eats him instead. Thrawn is about winning whatever game is being presented to him. If people have to die, they die. If they don’t, that is cool too.
I think Thrawn feeling inconsistent could also be explained by the subjectivity of both Rebels and the books. The new trillogy is very much written from the perspective of imperials. We only know what certain characters know and think of situations in that moment. The same goes for Rebels, while the viewer knows a bit more then the main characters here, we mostly follow their perspective and the epilouge even implies that this story was told by an older Sabine. Thrawn in the books still sees people as assets, uses Nightswans unwillingness to attack appearently unarmed ships, manipulates Eli and others into working for his cause, lies about beeing exiled and his level of understanding Basic and is ok with slavery. Thrawn wanted to get on Nightswans good side, so killing civillians wasn't an options for him. Those civillians were also mostly upset with their local government and could probably been persuaded by giving them a new senator, while Lothals people would have been alot harder to be turned back into usefull assets for the empire.
I agree. The Empire made Thrawn bad in a certain point of view. The more time he spends in the Empire, the darker he gets, plus the Emperor is subverting his mind with dark side tendencies. Everyone in the Empire is influenced by the dark side thanks to the Emperor. Plus in the shows we don't get his train of thought what hes thinking at that moment where the books give us a detail look into what hes thinking and his true purposes for his actions. Overall Thrawn is an anti hero. He still tries to find ways to avoid loss of life, but events happen to make that no longer an option. The simple fact is that the Emperor and the Empire slowly changed Thrawn, but not fully. There's still some good left in him. May The Force be with you all.
Thrawn is an amazing character and one of my favourites but I do agree that in the books by Timothy Zahn he is handled as an almost hero type figure only joining the empire to eventually if needed they could help the chiss with the grisk in the unknown regions whereas in rebels he is a straight up villian. I prefer to think of him as an anti hero someone who wants to help his people the chiss by joining the empire but will also do pretty bad things to keep himself in the emperor's good books 😀😀😀😀😀
I just finished reading lesser evil. A tremendous book! I think you could also link book Thrawn with tv Thrawn in this respect. He will do anything to protect the chiss and the ascendancy, but being in the empire, he doesn’t care as much about protecting anything there, just as long as he keeps the protection of his ascendancy first and foremost in his mind.
I feel the same way about this topic, great video. I am a bit nervous about live action Thrawn going foward. I also don't have a problem when he bombs Lothal. I feel like that choice makes total context in the military situation within the show and Thrawn is clearly being pushed to his limits by the crew of the Ghost. I am so excited for the final Thrawn Ascendancy novel!
Because EU Thrawn has as much in common with Disney Thrawn as the Edgar Rice Burroughs Tarzan with the Disney version (meaning only the superficial parts are the same).
I don’t know if we will ever see this, but I’m fascinated by Thrawn’s work in the Unknown Regions, and it would be great to read some books about it. The annexation of the Unknown Regions for Palpatine would be his sweet spot, his happy space. He could do preemptive strikes to his heart’s content. And he wouldn’t get called back to Coruscant all the time in front of hostile interrogations to justify his military decisions and actions. I’d like to learn how he found (or built) the Hand of Thrawn, then arguably created the most extensive database known to the galaxy (giving Obra-ski a run for its money).
Hopefully, thrawn won't be killed off , when he comes into the mando series, maybe a book trilogy explanation of the years between ESB and the mando.. and how he met Morgan Elspeth???
personally i always thought well Thrawn did feel all life is important he always favored his own people over everyone else and the rest of us are comparability expendable in order to protect the chiss. it's a lot like the Jedi even in how they fall adding in what you said with him becoming more and more comfortable with the empires methods
I also have another gripe about Rebels, which is a massive "nerf" to Thrawn: the lack of the Chimaera bridge crew. What I love about the books is the interaction between Thrawn and his supporting characters, like Eli and Faro. Granted Eli was already out of the picture but Faro was present until the very last episode of Rebels, yet there was no mention of her. Granted I see why she wasn't present, because would have made no sense for Thrawn to delegate to Pryce missions when Faro was willing and able to carry them out (Thrawn was grooming her for the role after all, as seen in Treason). Still the lack of those interactions robbed Thrawn of depth and sort of ruined the portrayal, being portrayed as a more competent Imperial but far from the book version.
I really hope that's how they reconciliate the books and shows. My favorite Shakespeare tragedy is Macbeth, and same thing happens. A noble man descends into darkness. He is completely unrecognizable at the end.
The reason he bombarded Lothal was because this punk Jedi teen was seriously messing up his plans to utilize the Empire and save his home system. He rarely loses composure but in that moment he had had enough of Bridger.
I do believe he was going to use low powered blasts, but in any case, I do see where he was coming from. If I had to destroy an entire city to save my people, I would do it.
Thrawn is SO much better in the books, so much more complex and different than any other Star Wars character. They should’ve modeled him after the books
The Thrawn books I have read - pre-Disney - are actually from the perspective of someone close to him, like Captain Pelleon for example. I forgot the character's name in Outbound Flight, but in the Heir To The Empire trilogy, we saw Thrawn through Pelleon's eyes for most of the story.
Love this way to bridge the gap between Thawn's appearances. Perspective 100% comes into play. I also think that between Batton and Lothal there's an argument to be made that Thrawn was far more off-put by Ezra and the rebels than he ever was by Nightswan. Nightswan was formidable, but Thrawn was generally at least one step ahead, and at the very end on Batton he had a full grasp of the situation. He always understood Nightswan and his capabilities, and knew at the end he had won one way or another. In Rebels though, Thrawn constantly was just barely losing to the rebels by the end of it, and I think the encounter with the Bendu showing up and saving the day made Thrawn more nervous when dealing with the Rebels in the future, which was why he took more drastic measures in bombarding Lothal to gain cooperation. The Rebels had too many unknown quantities, so Thrawn had to act more rashly and harshly by the end of the show.
I am practically sure, that Jixtus will be the main villain. That's why Ezra was united with Thrawn - in order to be able to show him from a positive side. Against the threats from the Unknown Regions.
Thrawn has shown to be very much interested in the concept of Jedi due to the Chiss Skywalkers. He might just have asked Ezra to make the deal. Ezra comes and help his people in return for Thrawn not returning to the Empire. After Treason, such a deal is a distinct possibility where the Emperor shows more displeasure with the Grand Admiral.
@@JonathanLundkvist Ezra's fate becoming intertwined with the Chiss Skywalkers could perfectly explain why he's not around to assist our heroes in the sequel trilogy (because he might already be tied up/committed to raising his own separate Jedi Order in the Unknown Regions, along with possibly still being busy dealing with the never-ending Grysk threat?)
I've thought about this a lot, and I do really like the idea that just being in the empire and needing to please Vader and the Emperor is corrupting him, that he still sees himself as being in it for the right reasons but maybe losing perspective and making excuses. I'd really love to see Zahn's take, even just a short story, on the Rebels finale from Thrawn's POV
This doesn’t hold entirely since Alliances and Treason take place during Rebels, and Thrawn is portrayed as a good/neutral character in those books as well
I agree with your assessment. Thrawn on TV doesn't care beyond power. But in the Thrawn of trilogy, he emphasizes that while power is both and end and a means it takes hard work to get to it. Power is lnt power. It's logistics, study, intuition, military might.
I just still am disappointed that Filoni does not appreciate Zauns work and will most likely not do the character justice. If you are to allow these books to be created than why not put in that effort to make things consistent?
Thrawn being part of the Empire is the issue. The Empire as an organization is brutal, Thrawn is a LEADER among the Empire, putting him firmly on side with all the Empire's attrocities. Keep in mind: I liked him in Zahn's trilogy; just having him in a different military would fix the villainous aspect. He's a skilled leader, and if he was the leader of a Rebel fleet he'd be the most interesting protagonist, like a Horatio Hornblower. Until that happens, it's more than appropriate for him to be a villain. Remember: The Empire NEEDS to be big-E Eeeeeevil, because that's part of the franchise. They're toxic. The Stormtroopers were named for Nazis, and ANH was a WW2 film (as well as cowboys & samurai). So long as Thrawn is a member of the organization, he can't be separate from what they stand for.
Star Wars, itself, is inconsistent. There is a serious disconnect, in almost every single fragment of the lore, between what we see in the films, what we see in the shows, and what we see in the books. Take, for example, the TIE fighters that are legit threats in the movies, but are 100:1 cannon fodder everywhere else. Or the Force, which was comparatively subtle in the films (save for the lightning spewing all over the place from the most powerful force-users) while the Expanded Universe had force powers where people could shrink to microscopic size and alter people's DNA directly. I could go on and on.
I am 30min away from being finished with Ascension: Chaos on audio and I couldn't tell you what the story was about😂. All I got was that he is independent, neither Republic or Empire
As much as i like Filoni it needs to be said that he doesnt get Thrawn's character. Thrawn certainly works for the emipire, but everytime im reading the books i just can"t see him as a villian or a bad person
I think the inconsistencies can be explained through a number of things. His losses could make sense seeing as Thrawn wasn't accustomed to the workings of the Force and as such did not know how to combat users of the force like the Bendu, Ezra, and Kanan. His loss at Atallon was also due to the disobedience of Admiral Konstantine who disobeyed his orders and let the Rebels escape. His slight Character shift could also be explained by saying that his appearance in Rebels was from the perspective of the Ghost crew whereas his appearances in the books have been largely from his perspective, giving more reason to his actions.
I like the idea that he’s almost accidentally become darker than he intended to
I agree. It fits well with his persona of having a brilliant military mind but being a complete idiot when it comes to politics
It's like Ar'alani told him he needs to get in with the bad guys and he got way too hyper-focused on being bad
It is a recurring theme in Star Wars (especially in Canon) that the Empire is an inherently corrupting organization. You can be a "good Imperial", but you cannot STAY a good Imperial - at some point something will be demanded of you that makes you cease to be either good or an Imperial.
Hopefully with the somewhat more mature tone of the Live Action SW world they can make Thrawn more of a complex villain and less one-sided Bad guy. Not that his portrayal in Rebels was bad, I really appreciated his more calculated, tactical approach as it provided something different for the Rebels to face.
Hopefully, but with Filoni at the helm for both of these, it seems pretty likely that we'll be getting the Thrawn from Rebels, not the books
He found the rebel base, but otherwise didn't accomplish anything more than a generic no-name officer in Rebels if I remember correctly.
@@KoalaTContent
I mean he didn't just find the rebel base, he completely annihilated a rebel cell(+ much of another). There aren't many in the Empire capable of doing that in a single battle.
@@tomfou Didn't the majority of the rebels get away? It's been awhile so I may have mis-remembered the exact details
@@KoalaTContent
Only the important characters did.
Not gonna lie, it feels like a real pity that Rebels didn't have a good opportunity to have Thrawn and Kallus compare notes on the morality of serving the Empire versus betraying it, because I bet that would have been a pretty enlightening conversation about where Thrawn's head was at.
The topic you speak of is sort of covered between Nightswan and Thrawn (during the climax of the 2017 Thrawn novel), but I agree with you nonetheless: Kallus and Thrawn definitely do need another opportunity to reunite and assess each other's current motivations/goals/morality (e.g. "Rangers of the New Republic").
I will say that even canon book Thrawn is not an out-and-out hero. He does state that his main motivation for sparing lives is because most people can be useful assets in the future, and in his conversation with Nightswan he does talk about destroying dissent if it goes against his goals. But yeah, he is definitely not as cruel as the tv version.
IMO book thrawn is sympathetic villain, sorta, he's a villain but he's doing what he does to save his people and he isn't overly cruel.
True, also justified the wooki slaves to Eli as well. You are right he isn't too far into the morally good side of things.
@@themrmezbah he's just very focused on his people, if you aren't chiss you're secondary
@@evanceier8577 Yeah I agree. But I might be reaching but I also feel like he views very few but notable individuals such as Eli and Faro very highly. On par with the chiss even, but I might be reaching especially with Faro.
@@themrmezbah yeah maybe
"I've never really heard anyone else complain about it" just about every Thrawn fan I know has complained about this extensively. granted it's a niche issue but avid fans are definitely annoyed by this inconsistency
I want to see a Thrawn and Ezra show where they argue and fight but they slowly grow to understand each other. Like a sitcom on an abandoned planet with Thrawn and Ezra.
I don't find it likely as Thrawn has resurfaced in The Mandalorian, where Ahsoka is hunting him, which doesn't feel like something Ezra would be a fan of
@@Dayummmsalt The idea that Ezra stayed with Thrawn willingly and they work together would be a great plot twist.
@@JonathanLundkvist sort of like the Honorable Ones, but as en entire series
@@JonathanLundkvist One of the most essential interesting parts of the the original Heir to the Empire trilogy was the uneasy dynamic/"alliance of convenience" between C'baoth (the Dark Jedi/other main villain of the trilogy) and Thrawn; I wonder if Ezra is intended to become the heroic/antiheroic counterpart of C'baoth?
(though personally, I'd instead prefer that our hypothetical "Disney canon" C'baoth instead turn out to be a clone of Dooku, since Dooku's charm/talent at politics makes for the perfect foil for Thrawn, who's good at military tactics while sucking at politics)
@@Dayummmsalt is it possible Ahsoka is searching for Thrawn to find Ezra?
All Star Wars Stories come from a Certain Point of View. Like Obi Wan Says in Return of the Jedi, when Luke confronts Ben about Vader being his father. Vader goes from ultimate baddie to someone who can be saved. So it would make sense in REBELS Thrawns the villain, because we are seeing things from the rebel point of view. In the Books we see everything in Thrawns point of view which is why we get the snippets of his thoughts like they come from his memory or a journal.
If we are in the rebels point of view then how do we see things the rebels never even seen. Im pretty sure there isn't a rebel hidden 9n every star destroyer. Lets stop trying to make senseless head cannon and just admit it's shitty writing😂
@@pabl0sauced0 Not what he said. "Like Obi Wan Says in Return of the Jedi, when Luke confronts Ben about Vader being his father. Vader goes from ultimate baddie to someone who can be saved."- the entire movie isn't what Luke sees, your inventing an argument to argue against. The show is called REBELS not REBELS and their off and on again not evil antagonist Thrawn
This has been bothering me as well. In my mind in the rebels finale Thrawn is targeting empty building or places where there are no to few civilians on Lothal and just putting on a show for Ezra, we just dont see his perspective. I hope we get to see more of his heroics in live action
As Thrawn put it, breaking ones own patterns can be a valuable tool.
Thrawn has honestly been my favourite character in all the Star Wars franchise ever since I read the first book what feels like ages ago
Alex: "maybe Thrawn has become a traitor to his former self"
TH-cam ad: "Watching a video about glue?"
I see Thrawn more that he chooses the most efficient path for his decisions. In the Ascendancy his hands are tied with a lot of rules of engagement so he's always looking for the most efficient solution that he is allowed to do but in the Empire he has no limits so he has no problem taking the efficient route by just killing a person.
But the book say otherwise
@@pabl0sauced0 Care to elaborate because we can't have a discussion with such a short sentence.
@@mightheal In the most recent book, Greater Good, he goes significantly out of his way to prevent a group of refugees from killing themselves when they think that their planet has been destroyed. He all but directly disobeys orders to take them back to their planet and investigate whether or not its truly unsalvageable and there aren't any others alive, despite protests from their leader. Because the idea of so many people dying based on a mistaken perception doesn't sit right with him.
It wasn't efficient and it skirted the boundaries of what he was authorized to do by the EDF, but he did it because he didn't want so many needless deaths.
@@Iacedrom54 He's using them as his excuse to get around the Ascendancy's rules of engagement. His warning flag was raised when finding out that the Nikardun tried to kill them, so he needs to go to their planet to find out why. I honestly don't think he cares that much if they kill themselves just as long as he gets what he wants from them.
@@mightheal That's not what it says in the books and he goes to great lengths not just to investigate and help the group but to keep individual members of their group from dying if possible. You can assume he's lying, I guess, but he's pretty upfront with Thalias in both books and it still seems like way too much effort just for an investigation, if he didn't care about their lives at all.
The most interesting solution for any future appearances would be to present him as the villain, but to make whatever lurks in the Unknown Regions the real threat in the end. His origins, knowledge, tactical genius and unique position between the Empire and the Ascendancy would be way more effective for opening up further story lines than just saying "blue man bad, we kill him and we win".
I really do hope Filoni understands that Thrawn has become way more than what he may have read 30 years ago.
Also, Zahn's version of Thrawn & Ezra's Space Whale Adventures when???
I think you're right about the difference. I also think Mr Zahn wants to continue to be able to write Thrawn and be involved, but if he hinted at frustrations or displeasure at how the character was handled he might very well lose his ability to continue to write him. I feel the same as you - it doesn't really matter. It does make me a bit sad to think people won't understand why he's such a great character.
That's what I was thinking too
I have had a tough time reconciling Rebels with the books. Thanks for doing this!
I personally didn’t find him inconsistent, at least in the Disney canon. The most cruel thing we see him doing in Rebels is that he made a mole in the Imperial Factory on Lothal kill himself with one of his defective speeders, and tbf, although he would have still been imprisoned (and everything that comes with that in the Empire), the mole could have admitted it and stop with the test-trap. The bombardment to Lothal was cruel, but again, he knew threatening innocents would be the weakness of the Rebels (at the end of the Thrawn novel, he had left his damaged escort ships vulnerable to attack but he knew Night Swan’s honor would prevent him from attacking them, an incalculable risk to external eyes) and we as the audience don’t know if he had analyzed a way to bombard zones that would drop casualties to a minimum. Other than that, to me it is pretty much the same Thrawn from the canon books but seen from the Rebels perspective, thus we don’t get to see his motivations and thoughts or the way he treats his subordinates, only an antagonistic force for our heroes to overcome.
Just asking
Isn't in thrawn book canon treason
Palpatine was adament for bringing some how in the destroyer and you can't disobey emperor's direct order , and he bombarded it?
Also the factory mole made a mistake not an error
@@sanstheelumbu It wasn't a mistake or an error. It was sabotage
@@squallstopher608 yeah exactly
A scout trooper could have been injured
They also sabotaged the walker
So thrawn knew instead of arresting , showing what a trooper face in battlefield is more explainable to them
I was first introduced to him in the first canon Thrawn book. I loved that he was baffled by the Empire’s lack of focus on civilians. He was an honorable warrior who fought his way to rise through the ranks and earn his position
I’m hoping he’ll survive the Ahsoka series so Timothy Zahn can write some more books 😅
Cryogenic/carbonite freezing could certainly allow Thrawn to influence the post-sequel trilogy era.
I'd rather a character have an impactful death, than be written out of death time and time again to the point that they seem like they are immortal
Probably just a prequel series to describing how Thrawn ended up changing. Because I doubt Filoni will even care enough to do that.
Clone. Legends almost did it.
@@Shermos how's this not a clone but Ezra in blue face...think about it.
It was a very conscious decision. The original author was asked to create an antagonist to give the New Republic a credible and different obstacle to the interference or manipulation of force wielders. Ergo, Thrawn-calm, thoughtful, inciteful, mentoring, and erudite. By rights, these attributes earned him loyalty. However, psychologically these traits would also yield a principled, and even compassionate person, if perhaps draconian in some measure. I think the author was happy to explore these facets of Thrawn. Yet, Disney and all neatly packaged stories of a type need an antagonist who is clearly defined to give the heros more meaning and make their struggles more compelling to the reader/viewer. It was expedient to take the Thrawn of the 90's trilogy minus any of the author's further fleshed out and well reasoned traits in his newer 2 Thrawn trilogies and continue, either ignoring the intervening evolutions, or opting to try to revisit them later, explaining that the Emperor's manipulations had pushed Thrawn beyond his limits, "twisting" his moral compass. (After all, that is the meaning behind the name.) I think we are likely to have in Thrawn a sort of Colonel Nicholsen, Bridge on the River Kwai, moment.- A crushing realization that the good man he had been, he had betrayed, his care for his own people, everything for which he'd set out, left home to save, even the Empire he served for the purpose of securing, all of it, he had betrayed.
Thanks for your video! I also grew up reading Thrawn in Heir to the Empire, and have loved Zahn's books since then. The inconsistency has bothered me - doesn't feel fair to Thrawn's character. For example, in Rebels S3:E5 Hera's Heroes Thrawn loses his cool when his captain talks about destroying the Kalikori as a piece of "Alien trash". Nowhere in the books does Thrawn let his emotions get the better of him, (in a big way like that), before or after that moment in the cannon Trilogy written by Zahn.
I appreciate the explanation of how Thrawn has been twisted by continually serving under the Emporer...it just seems apparent that Zahn and Filoni did not see totally eye-to-eye on Thrawn's portrayal.
Overall Thrawn was introduced in a net-positive way, but yes, the inconsistency is there as a detriment.
Let's put it like this: Thrawn is designed to be a Villain, but because of his own moral compass he shouldn't agree on everything the Empire wants and have an own point of view constructed by logic, brilliant tactical thinking and his alliance with his species.
I think part of this comes from the ways over the years that certain fans (and to a lesser extent, Zahn himself) have allowed his cool factor to make them forget his evil status. Thrawn can provide whatever rationalizations he wants, but the fact is that a defining aspect of his character in both continuities is a willingness to kill people in the name of preserving a military dictatorship. He's not usually cruel or vindictive, but his central philosophy is amoral pragmatism which, because of his perception of which side is "prudent" to work with, causes him to commit evil deeds.
That sort of works both ways. Thrawn can rationalize any evil deed he does as being the best thing for the Chiss or the galaxy, but he also rationalizes any "good" (or less evil) thing he does as well. He won't say "it would be wrong to bombard that city", he would say "it will not be productive to bombard that city." He wasn't against the Death Star because it was a horrific weapon of mass murder - he was against it because it cost too much and was a big single target. Is there ever a time Thrawn takes an actual moral stand, doing something sub-optimal (not costless, but actively costing something) because it is the right thing to do? I'm not aware of any, at least during his Imperial tenure.
The way I see Thrawn, he is pretty consistently evil not because of his intentions, but because of his actions. Again, he's a master of rationalization, but those rationalizations don't matter to the people he kills and the worlds he tries to oppress. Almost everything he does (at least after the start of his Imperial service) makes the galaxy a worse place, and he could see that if he chose to. To me, the core of this dichotomy of "hero" and "villain" Thrawn is that he is evil that is good at telling itself it isn't evil, and he sweeps up a lot of fans in the process.
Thrawn is a person. He’s complicated and messy, capable of being a hero or villain depending on the point of view his stories are being told through.
I agree that there are inconsistencies, and have pretty much come to your conclusion as well. Working with the Empire and the Emperor has changed him and made him a much darker character. It kind of reminds me of any of the Legends stories where a Jedi goes to the dark side to try to defeat it from within and ultimately fails and becomes the thing they were fighting against. That feels like Thrawn's story, just without the force involved.
i really liked the line "maybe hes a traitor to his former self" i kinda hope they go that route tbh
I do really hope Timothy Zahn is heavily involved in his first live action appearance or at least consulted on it
I hope so too
I was thinking about this not that long ago, and the rebels finale bothered me as well. My guess is that, if Zahn gets to write about Thrawn after rebels, he'll explain it as Thrawn having prepared his targets and actually fired at empty buildings or something along those lines, just to make Ezra comply.
Isn't it explained in the third Thrawn book though? The Emperor threatens him with execution or expulsion if he doesn't abide with the ruthless tactics of the Empire. He becomes frusturated and "goes against his own morals and goals" for the sake of staying in the Empire.
@@kungolaf4499 I don't remember exactly because I read it a while back, but I think that part was more about him working with the Chiss and where his true allegiance lays rather than about whether he was ruthless or not.
@@kungolaf4499 I believe you're right. He caught flak for letting the Rebel leadership escape from Attolon and well Palp doesn't give second mercy. Plus the survival of his precious TIE Defender project was at stake so he really had to step up and give the Emperor results he wanted, collateral be damned
@@Kofdoom1 Yes but he needed to prove his loyalty to Palpatine. And that would happen through Tarkin-esque brutality of obliterating civilians and stepping out of your moral comfort zone to achieve what is necessary.
I would really like to see Canon explore the grey more, with generationist Imperial officers, Rebels like that one cell in Rogue One, and Thrawn. The people trying to do the right thing through methods others find questionable in themselves. There's a lot of potential here, and I'd love to see it explored.
I also think that the context of Thrawn firing on Lothal is important to remember. Palpatine was directly interested in the events happening, his royal guards were on Thrawn’s ship and Palpatine was there in hologram form for a good chunk of the events as well. I don’t think it’s a big leap to assume that Palpatine told Thrawn how he wanted things done and Thrawn is definitely smart enough to know that disobeying Palpatine isn’t a good idea, even if he doesn’t want to do what he’s being asked to do.
Basically his boss was breathing down his neck about doing this whole bombardment thing right.
Exactly, I seem to recall that at the end of "Thrawn, Treason", Palps said he wanted Thrawn to get Bridger into the chamber by any means necessary... or words to that effect.
I have always looked at more villainous portrayal of Thrawn in Rebels as a pacing choice. I think it would've distracted from the story of they'd focused on his more heroic qualities. I do think we got glimpses of it. His outburst at that one officer who sneered at Twi'ilk art is much more sympathetic after reading chaos rising. I honestly have never held the execution of that one worker against him because even without the added context of the books there's no way Thrawn sees the guy as anything but a murderer. Just think of number of men under his command that died and it wouldn't surprise me if that number included fresh faced recruits.
A villain? Me? I'm just doing my part for the Chiss Ascendancy. My only crime is having the dopest offices in all of The Galactic Empire!
Just be careful with that bodyguard of yours... Something fishy about him...
"You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."
But really, on certain sides of any war, you're not going to get a full picture.
I feel storytelling in Rebels gives us the idealistic Rebel POV. But in the books, we see Thrawn more fleshed out, revealing a different side. I like how Rogue One uncovered a lot of the grey in the Rebel Alliance, without contradicting anything. I love the similar exploration in Inferno Squad. Good and evil intertwined in some measure.
Spot on. He will do what he must in order to save his people, and power changes people. Can’t wait to see him live!
Bring on Grysk Wars Thrawn!
Imagine Ezra playing a similar role as Jorus C'baoth for Thrawn if they do actually show up in Mando or one of the other connected shows
I'm so glad someone else is talking about this; personally the inconsistency between book Thrawn and show Thrawn has been driving me crazy!
I think the main reason for the differences is as simple as Rebels Y7 rating. The younger the target audience the more clear-cut the differences between heroes and villains. The older the audience, the more complex a character’s motoivations. If Rebels were for an older audience you might get to see a Thrawn closer to the books.
I'm not complaining all that much about Thrawn in Rebels, because in many ways he *is* a more complex character -- in comparison with his Imperial contemporaries.
The vast majority of original Rebels villains have tended to be written as valuing their own egos over their competence as members of the Imperial 'elite." Tarkin, the Emperor and Vader are very much themselves, painted in broader strokes, which is fitting considering they were originally intended to be reminiscent of the 1940s Republic Studios serials baddies.
Thrawn's character virtues -- his intelligence, his appreciation for art, and a talent for outthinking his opponents -- are very much in evidence in Rebels, but we also have to consider that Disney was aiming this series at a market segment dominated by early teen audiences who might not have the inclination to actually hunt out and read the Thrawn books. So of course the portrayal will have broader strokes, to communicate the essence of the character more quickly.
Love both the canon novels and Rebels, but I've absolutely felt this exact thing since the end of Rebels. Appreciate you sharing your question and Zahn's answer. I'm worried about how Thrawn will be handled by The Mandalorian/Ahsoka/Rangers of the New Republic, but also hope Zahn gets some novels to, as you said, write Thrawn's view of the events or surrounding events to his portrayal in the show. I try to shrug it off, but also feel it is another example that not all publication mediums are equal and I feel that is unfortunate for authors.
Thrawn is still a cold calculating sociopath in the books. He's very unempathetic and just cares about winning but we empathize because it's from his perspective.
I think the simplest explanation for why Thrawn seems more sympathetic in the books is because the books are largely from his perspective so we get to see more of his thought process and justifications for his actions. In the animated show, we only see him through the eyes of the rebels and other imperial officers so he feels more like a villain. Villains always seem less villainous when the story is told from their point of view instead of the point of view of their victims.
I think thrawn was desperate with the pressure that the emperor and darth Vader were putting on him.
Much like Caleb Dune and Order 66, I just rationalize it basically as "Different stories need characters to do different things. So long as it isn't extreme and it makes sense then its whatever I guess"
Edit: Remember, Lucasfilm views Star Wars as a mythology - character inconsistencies happen
The concept of a gradual descent into darkness, as Thrawn's time in the Empire corrupts him... I find that very interesting. I'm definitely on board for that!
I like to think of him as a villain with a sympathetic origin story
I'm expecting Thrawn to be in panic mode by the time of his live action reveal and will be willing to do anything necessary to save the Chiss. Ar'alani hinted at Thrawn being too late in Treason. And the discussion about isolating Thrawn in Greater Good...well, that's all we need to know. By the time Thrawn abandons the Empire literally in Vader's face to save the Skywalkers in Alliances, I'm pretty sure his loyalties are still pretty clear. But absolutely right about making a deal with the devil, it's not going to end well for Thrawn and that's straight up just a tragedy.
its simple really zahn created the character so when he writes for him he paints thrawn as the hero who is always right with no real flaws beyond just not understanding politics or the force meanwhile filoni paints thrawn as the villain he was originally written to be.
Well i don’t really find him inconsistent. If I remember correctly it’s the Chiss people he talks about in the quote ate the beginning. And in chaos rising at the end when Thrawn talks to Ar'alani he mentions that he views other species as assets, he sees their art and culture but doesn’t see the individuals. Thrawn is willing to make sacrifices when it is required but he prefers to find ways around it. This is in stark contrast to Grievous for example who is very much ok with sacrificing entire ships if it means he wins or gets a tactical advantage.
I’ve read most of the books with Thrawn I read the heir to the empire trilogy and all of the new Thrawn that have come out and I’m at the end of rebels season 3 I have always like Thrawn and the way he works I didn’t notice he seems more evil in Rebels but I think the way he works things out in the book is pretty much the same in rebels and now that I hear your idea about he’s spent time in the evil empire and it’s rubbed off that makes a lot of sense I’m excited to hopefully see him in the Ahsoka series and hope whoever they choose to play him does there homework and reads every book he’s been in
I am sure I have read this somewhere as a comment a long time ago, but I loved the idea. I would love to see a Sherlock Holmes style tv show with thrawn as the lead. I don't know who you would have as the "Watson" character, depends on the timeline I would assume, before the OG Trilogy i would assume Eli Vanto and we would just have a show retelling the events of the first 3 books. I would PREFER a show based on the Ascendancy novels. Just give us a tv show that is so far removed from the rest of the galaxy that anyone could watch it. I basically just want a crime thriller set in the star wars universe.
I've always figured that Thrawn in Rebels is almost very closely associated with higher ranking officials in the Empire. That would force his hand as to how to deal with problems. His attack on Lothal is pretty much directly intertwined with the Emperor. He wants Ezra in order to access the secrets of the World Between Worlds and Thrawn is charged with that mission. The crew of the Ghost had also caused enough of a problem that the Emperor would want them and likely the planet to made an example of. If his choice is this "small" group of people versus his entire civilization if he fails, what choice do you think he would make?
As for the future of his character? One of the bigger reasons I think the books Zahn is doing have a bigger meaning is timing. The new Thrawn trilogy was announced at New York Comic-Con in 2019. That is after the point that Filoni knew that Thrawn would be making an "appearance" in Mandalorian and likely after they have set-up the larger story for him in live action behind the scenes (they have to have an overall arc if they are doing three interconnected series). That might not mean anything, but the only new book series that are being released all tie into future shows. The High Republic novels will likely tie in somewhat with the Acolyte and Ronin is tied in with a story from Star Wars: Visions. The Alphabet Squadron books finished up a previously announced series and the new E. K. Johnston book is part of a series of Queen Amidala books. So in a year and a half they haven't announced any series that doesn't tie in with a Disney+ show. And the Thrawn trilogy is scheduled to conclude right before Boba Fett starts up this newer interconnected universe. Could be nothing but I think it is a possible clue that the books have an impact on the larger universe of media.
I know i know but imagine this sequel trilogy
Thrawn with Yuuzan Vong as allies against New Republic and Imperial Remmnant
My look on this, in Rebels, Thrawn is a willing servant of the Empire which he believes is stronger than the Republic which preceded it to deal with the threats in the Unknown Regions. The Battle of Batonn isn't really inconsistent since Thrawn never addressed the reason for civilian casualties being so high with Pryce interjecting quickly about how there was no longer any rebel presence in that system. As for killing Sumar, I believe that actually doesn't clash with his views about taking another life since he was rooting out saboteurs who were indirectly killing Imperial troops. Lastly, the holding Lothal's capital hostage with his Star Destroyers was a sound tactic since he knew Ezra would not sacrifice the lives of his people.
Glad that you're investigating this - I've wondered if and how they would incorporate the Grysks with everything else in canon. Is Thrawn bothered about them still by the time we see him in the Ahsoka show or has he taken care of them already and is leading a new remnant of the Empire, thus returning us to that original time period of the Thrawn trilogy? I'm assuming he'll pop up in the Ahsoka show. And of course - where's Ezra? We'll see what happens!
What about Wullf Yularen in the 'is he good or bad?' category. He never struck me as a truly 'bad' guy in any of the Rebels shows or the couple of books I've seen him feature in.
Lars Mikkelsohn live action or bust
Lars will always have a special place in our Star Wars hearts (for his performance in Rebels), but Benedict Cumberbatch and Pierce Brosnan make for nice alternatives, too!
@@whyuhatan Just Googled/found the article which mentioned Benedict's disinterest; what a darn disappointment. :(
(though I can't blame him; I can certainly imagine how uncomfortable it would be to wear blue makeup all day while filming)
Still though, here's to hoping that live action Thrawn lives up to (and possibly exceeds) all of our expectations!
I am really hoping we find Thrawn and Ezra working together. Like everyone is on a mission to save Ezra from Thrawn and they get there to find out they’re Allies now. I feel it would honor the books. Ashoka has a big view of her galaxy where as Thrawn has a view on an even bigger picture of the galaxy because he’s been a part of both his galaxy and the empires.
All that to say, there is a lot of possibility and fun they can have with getting them all swept up on an adventure together and lead that into them all helping The Chiss.
What you said at the end is basically how I see things - Thrawn made a deal with the Devil, and while he hoped to use the Empire to benefit his people, it in turn changed him and desensitised him to things he may have disapproved of before. Like, think of the scene where he bombards the Lothal city - this is right after Thrawn Treason, where he's on knife's edge with the Emperor. He's not exactly in a place to be soft when his literal life is on the line, and him living or dying could change the tide of the Grysk war depending on what he has to do. So yeah, I think as he gains more power and becomes a bigger deal in the Empire, he has to basically compromise any moral qualities he has for what he sees is the greater good (huh, is this something that comes up in that novel?). One scene I remember well in the original Thrawn novel is that Eli Vanto actually disapproves of slavery, but Thrawn while trying to seem moral is still making justifications for it. He's not exactly ideal, lol.
I think another factor could be something we've discussed with other issues concerning books and TV - unreliable narrators. Like the other examples of novels or comics not lining up perfectly, they could be explained because novels (and in Kanan's case, a literal flashback) enable the use of an unreliable narrator to justify the inconsistencies. Thrawn could be trying to make himself seem better in his mind than he is, maybe even trying to justify this to himself.
As for Thrawn in the future... I do agree I'm mainly expecting him to show up as a villain in the New Republic era shows, so I'm not setting my expectations high. That being said... Cobb Vanth gives me hope they could incorporate aspects like the Chiss Ascendency and the Grysk war into these shows, and I feel not only would this be great for the books, but I think these extra things could be a way to make Thrawn more than just a big bad. Like, Thrawn could be someone that basically with whatever Imperial Remnant he has, believes the New Republic is too new and demilitarised to deal with the Grysk threat, so he basically has what may as well be an Empire of the Hand, taking over parts of the outer areas of the galaxy in the name of security (I also recall Giancarlo Esposito randomly saying that maybe Gideon wants to "save the galaxy", hmmmm). I think Thrawn can be an example of someone who is going to fight this larger threat, but because of what the Empire has done to him and his belief that the Grysk are too dangerous, he's someone who takes things too far, doing whatever it takes to beat them while ignoring the harm being done to everyone caught in the war raging on, both in the damage from battles and the cost of the order and security he's trying to provide on civil liberties. Well, that's what I'd do anyway, like you said he's most likely just gonna do a Heir to the Empire lol
Good news here is that Zahn is indeed getting consulted on Thrawn for the Ahsoka series! So there hopefully will be quite a bit more nuance in that show.
On topic, I agree with your assessment and think that he was somewhat desperate after Treason. He was directly threatened by Palpatine and ending the Lothal rebellion kinda feels like a necessity for his continuous survival at that point, or at least the mere chance for it. I think that is a big part of it, plus what you said about him changing over his many years of service.
Filoni and other showrunners should consult with Zahn when including him in live-action in the future. I think he is way more interesting and nuanced in the books that he is in Rebels. Just my opinion :)
He doesn't? I read the first Thrawn book and he pretty much acts the same way in Season 3-4. He becomes more ruthless in Season 4, because the Emperor threatens him with expulsion or even execution if he doesn't abide by the Tarkin Doctrine. This happens right before the finale of Season 4 if I am not mistaken. Hence his frusturation at Pryce, "Who deserves what is irrelevant..." and bombarding of Lothal.
I always thought it's because Rebels is focusing on a younger target audience and that meant the villain needed to be more clearly 'evil'. I really hope that he will be depicted with more nuance in the live action show(s). Plus I hope hope hope that Zahn will have a say in his fate 🙏
I want a live action of Eli and Thrawn 🥲
I really liked your point that how he is depicted is dependent on whose viewpoint the store is being told from. Thrawn certainly does not view himself as the villain of his own story while his opponents certainly do
I’ve never really seen Thrawn as good or evil ... but pragmatic. He doesn’t want to take over the galaxy so it can be ruled with an iron fist. But damn it, he is going to take over whether you like it or not. He’s best characterized by what he told Nightswan about crippling another man so that the chasing monster eats him instead. Thrawn is about winning whatever game is being presented to him. If people have to die, they die. If they don’t, that is cool too.
I think Thrawn feeling inconsistent could also be explained by the subjectivity of both Rebels and the books.
The new trillogy is very much written from the perspective of imperials. We only know what certain characters know and think of situations in that moment.
The same goes for Rebels, while the viewer knows a bit more then the main characters here, we mostly follow their perspective and the epilouge even implies that this story was told by an older Sabine.
Thrawn in the books still sees people as assets, uses Nightswans unwillingness to attack appearently unarmed ships, manipulates Eli and others into working for his cause, lies about beeing exiled and his level of understanding Basic and is ok with slavery.
Thrawn wanted to get on Nightswans good side, so killing civillians wasn't an options for him. Those civillians were also mostly upset with their local government and could probably been persuaded by giving them a new senator, while Lothals people would have been alot harder to be turned back into usefull assets for the empire.
Thrawn in series: villain
Thrawn in books: anti-hero
I agree. The Empire made Thrawn bad in a certain point of view. The more time he spends in the Empire, the darker he gets, plus the Emperor is subverting his mind with dark side tendencies. Everyone in the Empire is influenced by the dark side thanks to the Emperor. Plus in the shows we don't get his train of thought what hes thinking at that moment where the books give us a detail look into what hes thinking and his true purposes for his actions. Overall Thrawn is an anti hero. He still tries to find ways to avoid loss of life, but events happen to make that no longer an option. The simple fact is that the Emperor and the Empire slowly changed Thrawn, but not fully. There's still some good left in him.
May The Force be with you all.
Thrawn is an amazing character and one of my favourites but I do agree that in the books by Timothy Zahn he is handled as an almost hero type figure only joining the empire to eventually if needed they could help the chiss with the grisk in the unknown regions whereas in rebels he is a straight up villian. I prefer to think of him as an anti hero someone who wants to help his people the chiss by joining the empire but will also do pretty bad things to keep himself in the emperor's good books 😀😀😀😀😀
Is it possible Palpatine's presence in the final episode of Rebels pressures Thrawn to do anything to earn his faith after Thrawn: Treason?
I just finished reading lesser evil. A tremendous book! I think you could also link book Thrawn with tv Thrawn in this respect. He will do anything to protect the chiss and the ascendancy, but being in the empire, he doesn’t care as much about protecting anything there, just as long as he keeps the protection of his ascendancy first and foremost in his mind.
I feel the same way about this topic, great video. I am a bit nervous about live action Thrawn going foward. I also don't have a problem when he bombs Lothal. I feel like that choice makes total context in the military situation within the show and Thrawn is clearly being pushed to his limits by the crew of the Ghost. I am so excited for the final Thrawn Ascendancy novel!
Because EU Thrawn has as much in common with Disney Thrawn as the Edgar Rice Burroughs Tarzan with the Disney version (meaning only the superficial parts are the same).
Villains are the heroes of their own stories.
I don’t know if we will ever see this, but I’m fascinated by Thrawn’s work in the Unknown Regions, and it would be great to read some books about it. The annexation of the Unknown Regions for Palpatine would be his sweet spot, his happy space. He could do preemptive strikes to his heart’s content. And he wouldn’t get called back to Coruscant all the time in front of hostile interrogations to justify his military decisions and actions. I’d like to learn how he found (or built) the Hand of Thrawn, then arguably created the most extensive database known to the galaxy (giving Obra-ski a run for its money).
I 100% agree with you. with the way thrawn is in Rebels Vs the new books Vs the original Trilogy of books...
Hopefully, thrawn won't be killed off , when he comes into the mando series, maybe a book trilogy explanation of the years between ESB and the mando.. and how he met Morgan Elspeth???
personally i always thought well Thrawn did feel all life is important he always favored his own people over everyone else and the rest of us are comparability expendable in order to protect the chiss. it's a lot like the Jedi even in how they fall adding in what you said with him becoming more and more comfortable with the empires methods
I also have another gripe about Rebels, which is a massive "nerf" to Thrawn: the lack of the Chimaera bridge crew. What I love about the books is the interaction between Thrawn and his supporting characters, like Eli and Faro. Granted Eli was already out of the picture but Faro was present until the very last episode of Rebels, yet there was no mention of her.
Granted I see why she wasn't present, because would have made no sense for Thrawn to delegate to Pryce missions when Faro was willing and able to carry them out (Thrawn was grooming her for the role after all, as seen in Treason). Still the lack of those interactions robbed Thrawn of depth and sort of ruined the portrayal, being portrayed as a more competent Imperial but far from the book version.
I really hope that's how they reconciliate the books and shows.
My favorite Shakespeare tragedy is Macbeth, and same thing happens. A noble man descends into darkness. He is completely unrecognizable at the end.
The reason he bombarded Lothal was because this punk Jedi teen was seriously messing up his plans to utilize the Empire and save his home system. He rarely loses composure but in that moment he had had enough of Bridger.
I do believe he was going to use low powered blasts, but in any case, I do see where he was coming from. If I had to destroy an entire city to save my people, I would do it.
2:25
Who else immediately heard him say "It was Governor Price all along" to the "Agatha All Along" tune?
Thrawn is SO much better in the books, so much more complex and different than any other Star Wars character. They should’ve modeled him after the books
The Thrawn books I have read - pre-Disney - are actually from the perspective of someone close to him, like Captain Pelleon for example. I forgot the character's name in Outbound Flight, but in the Heir To The Empire trilogy, we saw Thrawn through Pelleon's eyes for most of the story.
Because in the books he is written by his creator, the person who knows him the most, in Rebels, he is not.
Love this way to bridge the gap between Thawn's appearances. Perspective 100% comes into play. I also think that between Batton and Lothal there's an argument to be made that Thrawn was far more off-put by Ezra and the rebels than he ever was by Nightswan.
Nightswan was formidable, but Thrawn was generally at least one step ahead, and at the very end on Batton he had a full grasp of the situation. He always understood Nightswan and his capabilities, and knew at the end he had won one way or another. In Rebels though, Thrawn constantly was just barely losing to the rebels by the end of it, and I think the encounter with the Bendu showing up and saving the day made Thrawn more nervous when dealing with the Rebels in the future, which was why he took more drastic measures in bombarding Lothal to gain cooperation. The Rebels had too many unknown quantities, so Thrawn had to act more rashly and harshly by the end of the show.
I am practically sure, that Jixtus will be the main villain. That's why Ezra was united with Thrawn - in order to be able to show him from a positive side. Against the threats from the Unknown Regions.
Thrawn has shown to be very much interested in the concept of Jedi due to the Chiss Skywalkers. He might just have asked Ezra to make the deal. Ezra comes and help his people in return for Thrawn not returning to the Empire. After Treason, such a deal is a distinct possibility where the Emperor shows more displeasure with the Grand Admiral.
@@JonathanLundkvist Ezra's fate becoming intertwined with the Chiss Skywalkers could perfectly explain why he's not around to assist our heroes in the sequel trilogy (because he might already be tied up/committed to raising his own separate Jedi Order in the Unknown Regions, along with possibly still being busy dealing with the never-ending Grysk threat?)
I've thought about this a lot, and I do really like the idea that just being in the empire and needing to please Vader and the Emperor is corrupting him, that he still sees himself as being in it for the right reasons but maybe losing perspective and making excuses. I'd really love to see Zahn's take, even just a short story, on the Rebels finale from Thrawn's POV
When Thrawn dose appear in live action I hope Pelleon is there as his second in command the the Heir to the empire series
Because the books blow rebels out of the water with lore and rebels is making it up on the way. That being said I love rebels.
This doesn’t hold entirely since Alliances and Treason take place during Rebels, and Thrawn is portrayed as a good/neutral character in those books as well
I agree with your assessment. Thrawn on TV doesn't care beyond power. But in the Thrawn of trilogy, he emphasizes that while power is both and end and a means it takes hard work to get to it. Power is lnt power. It's logistics, study, intuition, military might.
I just still am disappointed that Filoni does not appreciate Zauns work and will most likely not do the character justice. If you are to allow these books to be created than why not put in that effort to make things consistent?
Thrawn being part of the Empire is the issue. The Empire as an organization is brutal, Thrawn is a LEADER among the Empire, putting him firmly on side with all the Empire's attrocities. Keep in mind: I liked him in Zahn's trilogy; just having him in a different military would fix the villainous aspect. He's a skilled leader, and if he was the leader of a Rebel fleet he'd be the most interesting protagonist, like a Horatio Hornblower. Until that happens, it's more than appropriate for him to be a villain.
Remember: The Empire NEEDS to be big-E Eeeeeevil, because that's part of the franchise. They're toxic. The Stormtroopers were named for Nazis, and ANH was a WW2 film (as well as cowboys & samurai). So long as Thrawn is a member of the organization, he can't be separate from what they stand for.
Rebels Thrawn just needed a Snickers.
Totally agree... I fell in love with him in the books. Rebels didn’t do him justice 😫 Hoping he gets his dues in the Ahsoka show
Star Wars, itself, is inconsistent. There is a serious disconnect, in almost every single fragment of the lore, between what we see in the films, what we see in the shows, and what we see in the books. Take, for example, the TIE fighters that are legit threats in the movies, but are 100:1 cannon fodder everywhere else. Or the Force, which was comparatively subtle in the films (save for the lightning spewing all over the place from the most powerful force-users) while the Expanded Universe had force powers where people could shrink to microscopic size and alter people's DNA directly. I could go on and on.
I am 30min away from being finished with Ascension: Chaos on audio and I couldn't tell you what the story was about😂. All I got was that he is independent, neither Republic or Empire
As much as i like Filoni it needs to be said that he doesnt get Thrawn's character. Thrawn certainly works for the emipire, but everytime im reading the books i just can"t see him as a villian or a bad person
Thrawn is a villain. He's an enforcer for a fascistic empire
@@sarahluise3153 He's a baby who needs to be protected.
@@codysmovingcastle louder louder for the thrawn antis
I think the inconsistencies can be explained through a number of things. His losses could make sense seeing as Thrawn wasn't accustomed to the workings of the Force and as such did not know how to combat users of the force like the Bendu, Ezra, and Kanan. His loss at Atallon was also due to the disobedience of Admiral Konstantine who disobeyed his orders and let the Rebels escape. His slight Character shift could also be explained by saying that his appearance in Rebels was from the perspective of the Ghost crew whereas his appearances in the books have been largely from his perspective, giving more reason to his actions.