I kind of wish we saw a different Jedi master and padawan. I think it would have been cool to see Cere Junda and Trilla Sudari from Fallen Order. It would have been a great way to connect a video game with a tv series.
Damn true Was that so hard people? We would have received two epic things. But hell no, let's use some of the few jedi with an order 66 moment established
@@granalmirantethrawn2972 Would've needed explaining during the episode why Cere and Trilla weren't executed on sight but thousands of other jedi were, which is just an extra step of explanation that isn't really needed.
I think my big problem is that while the mythology angle can definitely work, that's definitely not how lucasfilm promotes or advertises Star Wars. That's why they made a big deal out of getting rid of the extended universe, establishing the story group and "everything being canon". So now it just kind of feels weird that they are basically going back to how it was when the extended Universe was around: some stuff is more true than others and liable to be overwritten.
Filoni is an egoist that's what happened. First, he disregarded Legends with his clone wars show, now he does the same with canon and the bad batch, even though he could just as easily used the early drafts for the bad batch being on Kashyyk. But now, he just went and twisted a years PROMISED continuity just to show his power over the universe
@@beenalive1736 I mean, Clone Wars was a Lucas decision during a period when we *knew* the EU could be overwritten by him, just like what happened with the prequels. I feel this is different
@@kampy19 Everything was Lucas's call about TCW indeed, the way it's Kathleen's now, and he came in some times and randomly threw ideas to the story group. Thing is, Filoni who was officially in charge still didn't care about legends and his ideas were the ones that always brought it off track. Lucas just approved. Now however, mr Dave pretends love to the EU he helped to kill no matter what else
@@marshamoseley5878 then wtf did he give any input or acknowledge lore from projects like Dark Empire, Heir to the Empire, Tales of the Jedi, and etc? It really irks me when I see people comment that same statement over and over again without any supporting info, ya know?
The opening bugs me a little, because it retcons some things from the kanan comic, but at least the broad strokes are the same. Caleb dume is on Kaller, the clone Grey turns on him and his master, Depa dies, he survives. I wish some things were more similar, but its not overall horrible
True, at least they kept some things, maybe the rest of the comic can still be considered canon(I REALLY hope they don't use Caleb anymore in the Bad batch, it would be only a source of troubles)
Personally, when moments like this happen I try to just make a “midground” where the best parts of each occur. For this, I like the idea of Hunter and Crosshair chasing canon but I also like the idea of a calm before Order 66
yes they could have done that in the series too, fight with the BB, cut to the night, and then same version of the comic from the BB perspective. In fact that is my personal canon now.
@@TheCoolCucumber yes but they didn't have to show the entire scene at the falò, 5 seconds from the distance maybe with the BB and the order 66 just after that. I think for a person that never read the comic then it would has been interesting read the comic. But what is done is done (until next retcon :') )
Regarding, "canon tiers", despite what Lucasfilm said in 2015, it is quite apparent that non-film media is treated the same way that is was treated in the old Legends EU. Basically, films trump TV, which trumps video games, which trumps novels, which trumps comics. Basically, film>tv shows>video games>novels>comics. I fully anticipate that the more films and tv shows we get, the more examples of elements of video games, books, and comics will get retconned, which is a clear example of the laziness of the story group, who is supposed to make sure that these things don't happen. The story group either needs to be expanded or given greater authority, as this is something that should have been caught during the writing process, or at the very least during the production of the show.
@@TheCoolCucumber I used to look at it like that but honestly these days I don't put too much stock in it and to be honest I don't think most makers tend to either. I mean Plo Koon at this point has wielded every color in existence, I've seen some Jedi wield red, stuff like this isn't that big a deal.
@@TheCoolCucumber Jedi classes from what I've heard are kind of a thing but to a smaller degree like for instance, I think Jedi Temple guards specifically have yellow and so on but aside from that, there's not much of that going on, especially since saber colors are made from the crystal's reaction to the user now.
@@TheCoolCucumber I also think a canon Mace Windu comic showed it off and a bit more clearly there whereas Rebels was more spiritual and subtle in nature.
Or why Wedge has a dubbed over American voice in ANH, Lawson’s impression of an American accent in ESB, Lawson’s natural Scottish accent in ROTJ, and an American accent again in Rebels.
Fun fact. The actor who was Captain Antilles in Revenge of the Sith wasn't British. He's Australian and he used an Australian accent for the scene from what I could tell. It's so quick you don't notice as it's one line.
The way I think of it when inconsistencies happen is that all shows, movies, books, comics, and games that we enjoy are all just legends. "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far, away" means we are hearing a story told from multiple people over time, almost like the telephone game. One person might say the comic version happened, and another person might say the show version happened, but they are both correct!
The point of the new Canon was to get away from that to have a consistent story. Mind you, that's a fine way to look at it, but that's not for everyone.
@@stephenjenkins7971 That may have been the point of the new canon, but we still have "They fly now!" even though Poe has seen jet troopers in the comics and we have The Clone Wars loosely adapting the so-called "Canon" comics and overriding them.
@arzyb in the kanan comics and the new dawn book its made clear kanan was an alchoholic right up to the start of rebels. He worked odd jobs and then immediatly turned around and spent all his money on alchohol
"These are all in-univesere tales that might not line up perfectly" is such a *frustating* cop-out. They promised us everything would be equally canon. This is why they got rid of Legends. Why do, and why did we ever, have Story Group if they're going to keep pulling this crap?
Legends was contradicted within itself and by the films as well. I don't understand why everyone has this rose-colored glasses view of the former EU now. It was never a completely cohesive story either.
@@BornAgainEmo Maybe not, but as a whole, it still told a better story than the sequel trilogy, and had better characters. That is what many of us miss.
@@BornAgainEmo yes legends did have contradictions but also didn't make a big song and dance about how incredibly consistent it was; it only tried to be as consistent as it could be while admitting that there would be contradictions
It’s easy enough for me to accept that the events of the Star Wars universe are conveyed to us through an unreliable narrator, where the broad strokes and themes are the emphasis but the tiny details get muddled and altered as these “legends” get passed down or retold.
Im my own headcanon it makes sense kinda. Since the Kanan comic is technically a flashback from kanan’s point of views so maybe that’s just his version of what happened.
Star Wars is kind of known to do this in regards to media vs comics/written material. I remember how Even Piell was written into Coruscant Nights I: Jedi Twilight but they had to retcon that when he died in the 3rd season of the clone wars before that story took place But then the reverse is also sometimes true. I think there was something with Mace Windu fighting Grevious on top of a droid starfighter during the siege of Coruscant which contradicts what happened in an earlier version with Grevious chasing down Palpatine and fighting Shak-Ti in the 2003 Clone Wars television show.
I think the 2003 clone wars was already set up to not be part of the “legends” canon. Since the comics and books followed s different continuity. So maybe not a retcon just kind of it’s own alternate story outside of the eu continu
@@GhoulishGwyn We were told that this universe would be different but to be fair, we were NEVER told that retcons weren't gonna happen every so often. They'd try to keep it consistent as much as possible but sometimes retcons are gonna happen whether it's someone like Dave Filoni doing it for the sake of his story (And usually not without a good reason for doing so and I think eventually he should at least address this.) due to advice he received from George Lucas about not always letting canon dictate what stories he should tell or occasionally yes filmmakers making a reckless decision (Oh hai TROS, everyone would rather forget you were the one to throw caution to the wind when it came to remaining consistent to the canon which later had to be fixed.). Because the sad truth is, every universe is gonna have retcons. Though to give the canon credit, it so far has not gotten to Legends levels where you have whole entire storylines that speak about a version of the Clone Wars that just doesn't exist, Dark Empire which has a different implied backstory for Palpatine that involves him being this ancient Sith that just used the body transfer power whenever he was about to die due to Dark Side degradation and so on. At most here we have TCW season 7 which altered some stuff about the Siege of Mandalore but is easy to accept because... well the Ahsoka novel was made back when we never thought we'd get Siege of Mandalore animated so it was just them throwing TCW fans as much of a bone as they could and later reprints of the book went back and even changed the saber colors to make it fit more with the canon. Various comics that have been released have occasionally had errors that were then corrected for reprints and trades. Cobb Vanth had some details changed around... but that was easy to accept since it was from his perspective. The most egregious I'd say it has ever gotten was this... but it's not the worst ever. If anything, I trust that Dave Filoni most likely has a good explanation for this and if there isn't there are plenty of rationalizations one can make and plenty of ways for the comic itself in later prints to fix this for those completionists, rationalizations that I even have a feeling Dave might've taken into account when you look at the two versions of the story and see the similarities that were kept so all in all, I think we're still following that mission. I'd say we should wait a bit before we say officially that the new canon's EU is useless to follow.
My headcanon: The Bad Batch version is how Order 66 happened involving Caleb Dume. The Kanan comic is how Kanan remembers order 66 happening. Due to the trauma of the fast paced situation and his years of alcoholism and mental instability, Kanan's memory shifted regarding that moment. He didn't remember The Bad Batch because he only knew them for a few minutes and his pain and guilt amplified the moment to a point where he believed the night before, when he was enjoying time with the clones, was when it took place. The rest of the events took place mostly as seen in the comic. As for the colour of Depa Billaba's lightsaber blade and Commander Grey's helmet, perhaps those were the colours of the items which Caleb Dume got familiar with, however they were changed shortly before Kaller; due to the trauma of the situation and years of alcoholism and anguish, his memory of Kaller was hazy at best and he filled in the gaps with what he knew (which ended up being slightly skewed from the truth).
Exactly. Whats the point of saying that when you dont respect the other media?? Its like those comics arent going to be considered in the future... (at least in series and films).
For me, I just ignore what executives promise on behalf of good writers. It’s a nice concept that everything is gonna connect unlike last time, but like, if I like both stories, I’m gonna revisit them and love them separately. Even if they conflict.
I used to read every Star Wars comic and novel, and I haven't read a single one now in like 3 years after it became clear that the whole statement that everything is canon now was just an outright lie to get people to buy the other media. They have no problem ignoring or totally retconning anything from any of the novels or comics. Why should I bother spending any money on any of it or wasting time reading it then? Which is why I don't.
The sequences in Kanan: The Last Padawan were flashbacks from the point of view of a recovering alcoholic with PTSD, fifteen years after the event happened. There's no way his memory wouldn't be compromised or fragmented. In the real world, these recollections can be even more distorted.
To quote a character from another sci-fi series I like: "make sure that you don't get too hung up on the details as it's the bigger picture that matters!"
@@SuperTunnelBoy Bradley Johansson (I think that's the spelling) from Pandora's star. The first book of The Commonwealth saga by Peter f Hamilton; he actually said this to somebody who was trying to capture him!
So agree with this. Never really minded inconsistencies. Stories are about having fun, learning, feeling the emotions they try to impart. I don't want to have to imagine them as textbooks that I need to recite perfectly on an AP exam.
@@granalmirantethrawn2972 I'm full comitted for version from the comic, but why is TBB version inconsistent with Rebels? He still watched his Master death, he was pursued by clones, he thought Hunter is decieving him, since Crosshair attacked him. He has no reason to trust a clone in TBB too.
This is a worthy solution, even better fit to the spirit of Star Wars. "From a different point of view." Kanan told the story to the Ghost crew, and do not forget he was a little kid at the time. After Jedi Fallen Order, we can imagine what he needed to deal with.
@@TheCoolCucumber the colors are kinda hard to explain, but you could view the time changes as Kanan mixing together memories. Maybe he had that calm night with the troops a day or two earlier, and it was the last nice thing he remembered doing with them so it mixed with his memories of order 66. Trauma can do a lot to someone’s memories
I am ok with small changes going from the word medium to the show/video medium BUT people like things for a reason. Characters doing certain actions, interacting a certain way. Small potatoes though
@@ghareebcolt3954 yeah but at least then it was already a mess and with George who didn't consider that stuff canon anyways. Now its like we have Legends, Canon, and Non-Canon Canon.
@@obi-wan-jacobi840 im well aware lol, KOTOR is still one of my faves, and i had no issue with them decanonizing Legends, but when this is constantly happening its harder to care as much. If ROTJ started off by saying Vader didn't actually say he was his father, itd be pretty annoying. Obviously this is much smaller than that but its still a bummer to see happen still. I love reading about the universe and characters because it builds out the wider story, I just wish that story was consistent. This is just a personal view, i wish i didn't care about it because then itd be easier to just have fun, but i just personally enjoy it when a universe is all consistent.
My headcanon is that due to a lot of trauma and alcoholism, Kanan has misremembered a lot of details of Order 66, and unknowingly merged and confused some memories, due to his perspective of it all, and that the "true" version of events is the one depicted in The Bad Batch.
You could look at it this way: in the Kaanan comic, what happened on Kaller was told in a flashback from Kaanan's point of view, and there is a possibility that in all of that drama and trauma, he may remember things happening in a different order than how it actually happened.
Also kanan hasn’t been cought yet. They know he lives because of crosshair, so grey might yet get his redemption. Just not the day after order 66 but more like a few weeks (which would actually make more sense do to them getting used to the chip). We just have to wait and see how their story ends
As a fan of Legends, I honestly don't really mind when things get retconned (especially in small ways like they have so far). My only gripe is that lucasfilm made a huge deal about every story counting and everything being Canon. If you're going to make that announcement and Pat yourselves on the back, follow through with your promise.
Yeah, a few years later they are complaining about how hard it is to keep a canon, please don't complain if you see a retcon or contradiction. Seriously, what were they thinking? They should had just said that the levels of canon were a thing again
@@Tyler_W probably they are good, but often ignored, like probably in ep 9 regarding all the book and comics story prior to ep 9, like Resistance Reborn, etc.
I like the idea that the bad batch is how it really happend, just kanan was scared and young so he muddles the details retelling it, like say Grey and styles were actually Grey and the Bad Batch (crosshair) which is why their armor kinda has a bad batch look to it.
100% agree with Alex's interpretation. Giant fictional universes become a lot more enjoyable and relaxing if you view the media as sort of folk tales. Occasionally pieces of media will conflict a bit, but that's just because your engaging in legends, not a historical account.
I think the Bad Batch version should be considered canon, as Dave Filoni made Kanan and therefore should get to decide what happened during Order 66. I also do wish the show saw a different scenario, maybe the battle in the show was the day before, and as the Order 66 scene in Kanan comics happens the Bad Batch are sleeping and awake to see Kanan run into the woods, as Depa Billaba falls to the ground
My take: these are redrafts, rather than retcons, per say. The unexpected return of Clone Wars after its cancellation (and subsequent commissioning of Bad Batch) led to a previously unforeseen opportunity to revisit and redraft events that the creators never foresaw they'd get the opportunity to do. In the same way that the previously canonical Bad Batch animatics from 20(14? 15?) were superceded by a redrafted finished arc for Season 7, I believe the same approach can be taken with the Siege Of Mandalore and the opening scene of Bad Batch. I'm not in favour of this happening regularly, and I totally relate to people feeling put out by these changes. But, if kept to a minimum as merely a kind of redraft, I'm fine with them (mostly). Also, 100% agree with your 'Star Wars is a retelling of mythology and the details sometimes get changed over time' take.
I personally don’t have a huge problem with them retconning some of the events from the Kanan comic. Especially when the broad strokes are still there; Caleb Dume is on Kaller, Commander Gray and the Clones are given Order 66, Master Depa Billaba is killed after telling Caleb to run, and Caleb manages to get away. The events that occur are still the same, it’s just how they play out that are slightly altered. Plus I feel this new turn of events really helps justify Kanan’s initial distrust and distaste towards Rex, Wolfe, and Gregor later in Rebels. Sure any Jedi that survived Order 66 would initially be distrustful towards any Clones they encounter, that goes without saying. But what Kanan experienced wasn’t exactly black and white. He was being chased by the Bad Batch who just wanted to help him and Crosshair who tried to carry out Order 66. Anyone who manages to survive that situation wouldn’t know who or what to believe.
When I was watching it I was like: "Oh, well ..." It wasn't until this night that I started to be really frustrated at the point that I was awake at 4 a.m. thinking about this. You helped me a lot. Now this is how I see it: the events from the Kanan comics happened, right before order 66 they met the Bad Batch and the Order 66 scene from the series is more a summary of that from the comics. And Depa Billaba's lightsaber is definitely green.
I love seeing anything adapted on screen. Best thing about being up to date on cannon is being rewarded with a moment on screen that you read about. I can totally understand being let down about some needless changes but let’s be real, when we heard Kallar we were all hyped.
2015: At least the bad EU stuff like palpatine surviving and luke's severed hand being cloned are no longer canon. And they promised us a consistent timeline which is neat. 2021: ...
To be fair, we still don't know what the purpose of Luke's severed hand is I don't think in the new canon so for all we know, it could just be a cute reference and Palpatine surviving from the looks of things they're gonna treat like this. They are gonna explain the hell out of how it could've happened and then they are NEVER gonna touch that again and will scream if someone brings up that idea.
You're a Star Wars jewel on TH-cam. I was frustrated through the whole episode, I am still a bit annoyed, even when I made my own headcanon, but you bring such reason and love with your words to many people with many opinions, it's heartwarming :)
@@granalmirantethrawn2972 I'm explaining why it got leaked in the first place it got leaked because Disney was telling them to change what happened so if they wanted to change the implied death of a kid why would they go ahead with showing a Padawan being killed? That's what has to do with Star wars in this context and besides giving it a connection to rebels is kind of a thing.
@@Planag7 oooh Damn, I get it now. Yeah, it's sad that they just don't want to show that dark reality, but I guess it's right in a way, these shows are still targeted to kids too, and Tbb was kinda darker than I expected, I heard the same about Amphibia. Of course that doesn't mean they should've treated that show so bad, seriously, they really did a mess, if you want a change in the already made ending don't allow the ending being leaked. Bad played, I hope they make it up in some way
I used to be a completionist but it became too hard to keep up with. The last novel I read was a crash of fate and I never read any of the books following that. (Though i did get from a certain point of view: empire cause i really enjoy those) Seeing cracks in the canon oddly gives me comfort because it makes the need to take in everything less significant. If there are inconsistencies it’s easier to just read what you like and remember that at its core it’s the cinematic stuff that matters. (Though I’m still reading every marvel comic)
@@zactrollo8402 I disagree, I love when writers adapt or use characters or stories from other media, but if they are to do this and make it feel meaningful to the story they are telling, they are going to have to change some details. If the people (Jon, Dave, etc) are required to adhere exactly to the source material, they will be very limited and it will come off as purely fanservice as they won’t be able to adapt it to fit their story. This would lead to characters and stories from books and comics not being used as it would be more trouble than it’s worth.
I don’t think that works here because the comic book and the TV show visually show the events as they were happening, they weren’t being recounted from one person to another after they happened
@@henryhammond7393 right, I forgot it. But I still think he is not going to be in the show Have you heard about the video polemic with Ray Park? He is definitely not working with Lucasfilm or Disney again, so if they bring Maul they would need a different actor(and let's be honest, getting other actor would be a pointless effort, Maul doesn't need to be in that show, Vader and the inquisitors are a good enough threat to Obi wan)
Perfectly said! I similarly think of the different mediums as a different lens on the stories. It'd be great for everything to line up perfectly, but I don't want storytellers to sacrifice what they find to be compelling or effective in order to fit within the confines of what other stories established. As long as the broad strokes and core of the stories remain fairly consistent, variations in specific details, tone, and presentation aren't a big deal.
I think the lightsaber color is actually the thing that can't be forgiven. Yes, narratively it's entirely irrelevant but that also means there's absolutely NO REASON to change it. In such a case the promise of Canon should most certainly overwrite authors preference. TBF, due to it being a streaming series and no hard copies being in distribution (as far as I am aware), they could always change it. It doesn't SEEM to be that big of a tweak.
The way I see it, there is a story group for a reason. If they can't do their job to keep things consistent, and provide opportunities for good story arcs, members should be shuffled or removed.
I think it's pretty clear they used Caleb to set the emotional stakes. We know Caleb survived Order 66, so that's not a big deal, but putting the Batch in there and having Caleb specifically survive them makes his survival more impressive. Depa Billaba's saber was changed from green to blue because it seems like Disney wants to completely erase the green for whatever reason.
@starwarsexplained I felt you handled this EXTREMELY well! Over the past couple days, I have seen so many content creators just get all mad and hate on the addition of Caleb Dume and Depa Billaba because of the comic. You handled it in the best way I have seen: by understanding both sides of the argument and explaining why either argument is TOTALLY okay to have. But you did this while also explaining what the purpose of stories in Star Wars is for, and I really appreciated that.
I think the best way to look at it is that Kanan's memory of Order 66 is foggy because A.) he was a child when it happened and your memory changes as you grow (I don't really remember much of my childhood if I'm being honest) B.) Order 66 was extremely traumatic so he would have unconsciously changed parts of it or remembered it differently to deal with that trauma and C.) he basically became an alcoholic afterwards so again his memory would've been compromised. I think both the comic and what we saw go down in The Bad Batch episode are valid. The way I look at it is the comic is how Kanan remembers Order 66 happening and TBB episode is how Hunter and the other members of the squadron remember Order 66. Both versions of the story are valid :)
Also - debates and theories about causes, effects, and courses of events happen between historians all the time. You can imagine it as like this: if the Journal of the Whills tells one version but say, the Bendu tells one with the same basic summary but different details.
That's questionable, with the passing of years we've known that more of 2 jedis surviving order 66, and it isn't so much of the deal if the list is short. But if in the future they expand this list, it would contradict sometimes the OT because people would start asking "Where has he during the original trilogy?" Making a little bit more of confusion in my opinion. And i don't think we would see any reference to the videogames in the series
For convenience. It was key that we saw how Bad Batch reacted, and more importantly defied, order 66. We have more connection to someone like Depa and Caleb than if he were to create a jedi just to die 5 minutes in. Saying this, I feel like it could've been avoided, though i'm not sure how. BB couldn't have been with Ahsoka, they couldn't have been with Cal Kestis either. There is an argument for Cere and Trilla but there would need to be an explaination why they weren't killed on the spot when the others were instantly.
There are still plenty of jedi to choose from. Even Quinlan Vos whose fate we don't know. Besides the focus is about the bad batch not the jedi. The scene is for how they react and that could've been dobe with any jedi. Ironically in an attempt to make everything seem like it all connects they broke continuity. I'm not one to get super upset about that but this just seemed so avoidable
@@jacknathe8135 I feel like order 66 is something that should be seen by rather than told to clone force 99. It would be a lot harder to question the orders without having been present when they happened. They saw with their own eyes that these jedi weren't traitors to the republic, and I think that is vital. I feel also it is more appropriate to the story to show a younger padawan deal with order 66 rather than someone like Quinlan. Hunter reaching out to help Caleb works better as he's a frightened child, afraid and alone, just as how Omega feels. Quinlan is a trained and powerful Jedi. With his attitude and positionality, I feel like he would've stood his ground and tried to fight the clones/bad batch moreso than run which would've meant conflict between the two rather than a show of remorse.
@@e115mastery you misunderstand me. I definitely think it should be shown, but the points you bring up work with any child. My point is that not everything has to be someone we know. When bail see that child gunned down in revenge of the sith is that moment any less powerful because we don't know their extensive history?
People have to keep in mind that the Kanan comic was made at a time when no one was sure what the future of the Clone Wars looked like. People who worked on the animated side of things wanted to put ideas they'd had for the screen into some sort of media, which is how other books/comics like Ahsoka, Dark Disciple, and Maul: Son of Dathomir came to be. Now that Filoni and co. know they can present those stories the way they initially planned, I expect there will be a few more retcons in the future.
Here a idea, in the comic is how Kanan remembers it. Like it was a dark time and feel like a calmest before the storm, so he see it at night and quiet. But say Hunter see it as just any other day, so we see that in the day time and Order 66 just happen. That just how I see it.
I'd imagine the Kanan comic is more canon accurate (so to speak) because the story is given more time. The Bad Batch version is quicker paced because the episode would've been boring otherwise. So at least in my headcanon, maybe the Bad Batch camped with the clones and Jedi that evening and then Order 66 happened
My headcanon is that the quiet moment where Caleb bonds with his troopers now happened the night before order 66 as opposed to the night of, and the moment the order happened was rearranged to be during the battle after that night, with the way Depa's death and Caleb escaping went down in The Bad Batch being the correct version of the events. Then when Caleb runs away into the forest, the rest of the comic still happens as shown. Also, the change to Depa's lightsaber and Grey's armor color is so minor that I don't really even care. Chalk it up purely to artistic expression.
Well, from a fans perspective thats only watched the films & shows. I'm glad we got to see this play out on screen! Also, hearing freddie voicing him again was a treat & I love this opening! So props to filoni & co. for putting this in & glad I got to see this moment play out in this beautiful animation! 😊👍💙
I agree. I haven't read the comic and plus like someone else said, Filoni created Kanan/Caleb so he should have a say with what is done with the character. Film/TV always trumps comics and books.
Definitely not a fan of changes, especially when this could have easily been avoided by not having Kanan. Seems like they just wanted to connect animated stuff. I think the original story was good, and that moment pays off when one of the clones sacrifices himself to save Kanan later in the story.
In Legends there is two versions of the Clone wars: The Star Wars: Republic comics (with books, video games and an animated series), which were released between 2002 and 2005, and The Clone Wars tv series of 2008
The way I view canon is that whatever happens in the movies and TV shows has priority over books, comic, and games. After all the movies and shows are the primary media that people view.
I must say my Star Wars Day was kinda ruined by these retcons. I don't understand why The Bad Batch had to be created at the cost of retconing a previous canon comic. If this is happening again and again, then what's the point of having the Story Group out there? Aren't they the ones that should get the job done, to maintain consistency in the new canon? Is it some sort of tough mission to be completed? I think not. I felt so so betrayed and so so furious!
Interesting because this is how I also was able to accept Canon and the Expanded Universe existing side by side. Kotor I-II is the best example where the story had multiple outcomes, based on the player, and those events happened millennials before the OT. What made them more close to ancient mythology rather history. So it was very appealing to me when they started using the term "Legends". The fans of the Mandalorians was now ironically was very upset to Filoni back when Season 2 where they retcon a lot. It was good to hear Freddy Prince Jr, but for those whose watching it chronological order may feel bizarre. Katooni had been a better choice. Seeing a familiar face die may signify to the audience that an era is completely over, and would give motivation to Hunter if she died by accident, stunned at mid air.
As much as I love the kanan comic the bad batch DID one up the comic in on aspect....Depa’s scream. Oh my god that was horrifying and I can see why order 66 scarred him so much. I still think the stuff before and after order 66 is canon.
I've always viewed Disney Canon as Film & TV as the main canon storyline with the comics, books, etc as the offshoot storys that they can pull from and adapt... if you look at the Marvel Comics and the Marvel Cinematic Universe there are elements that are different in the MCU from the Marvel Comics they pull from... Disney has always been a film & tv first company, so that's how I view it.
Star Wars has always had retcons. In the return to the Jedi novelization, Owen was described as Obi-wan’s brother but attack of the clones retcons that.
I like the idea of retreading some stories from different angles and adjusting them for that perspective. I definitely want to see the Darth Maul episode of Rebels recreated in the Obi-Wan series, for instance. Without Ezra Bridger present. That's possible now.
I love how clear you explain Star Wars and how you never put down any fans' theories or thoughts on subjects like this 👍🏻 it really feels like anyone can watch these videos and learn something, this coming from a relatively new fan (since 2015) and sequel lover (here comes the hate)
The problem is, these changes aren't details. In the series Kanan never met the other characters he would interact with after order 66 and never could (like his "friend" and the separatist general). So I think it's difficult to mix these things up in my headcannon. These interactions make a big part of this comics and are based on what's been established in the early issues. Also, as a TV show the Bad Batch has influence on lots and lots of other material like TCW and possibly other TV shows and comics, so it technically is "more canon" (you have to take it into account in the broader Filoniverse). And that's especially annoying since I really like the Bad Batch and the Kanan comics. I don't think it was a bad idea to make Kanan be the jedi in the Order 66 scene, because our emotionnal connection is way bigger than with most random TCW jedi, but I think it could have been made way better, like have the battle for the capital be after the skirmish we see in the show, and have the Bad Batch be chilling at another firecamp when order 66 happened, and the scene at the waterfall later that night (also everyone is talking about the lightsaber color change, but not about Grey's armor and Style's disappearance)
There seems to be a little too much canon vs head canon these days. For me, it asks the question of why is there a story group at Lucasfilm? I know there have been retcons in the past but they never said this is canon vs this is not prior to 2014.
This latest thing and the Cobb Vanth thing really aren't enough to question the purpose of the story group. 99.9% of the new Star Wars canon is consistent.
@@lightspeedbear 99.9%? That’s a bit generous. What about the Siege of Mandalore and Ahsoka? I don’t really have a problem with them changing things since the vast majority of people that watched the show did not read the comics or books. Myself included. But I also think they’re the one that said “ This is canon, this isn’t. So they should stick to it. Otherwise, why make Legends at all?
It's a change but hardly anything to get miffed about. I like your point about Star Wars being myths and therefore subject to change upon re-telling. Besides, Caleb was a child who was traumatized. Trauma tends to change memories.
Jedi having inconsistent lightsaber colors has been a trend dating all the way back to 1999; Mace Windu originally had a blue lightsaber before Samuel L Jackson wanted a purple one to more easily see himself in a crowd of Jedi. Plo Koon, Adi Gallia, and Ki Adi Mundi are other Jedi who had unconventional colors before they were standardized. My simple headcanon is that their lightsabers just needed an upgrade after being damaged or whatever, and I’ll just assume the same thing happened with Depa Billaba.
Back in the EU days, we had to sort everything into different tiers of canon to decide what counts throughout all the rampant contradictions. So just having lightsabers be the wrong color is a massive improvement
This retcon was too much for me. I'm worry that canon will become one big mess. Retcons aside, both scenes are great, so It's really hard to choose. I quess I will go with the bad batch version.
The choice to show Caleb and Deppa was 100% for the sake of emotion. We wouldn't care about some rando, but a lot more people would care about seeing characters we actually know. Its annoying when it does happen but I 100% understand it. I also agree with the whole idea of the stories being passed down etc. That's why I kinda think as legends as still canon... they're legends aka stories told to people passed down for cultural or historical reasons. Even though I'm not a huge legends fan
If they didn't bother making sure the Sequel Trilogy itself had a consistent story why would they care about non-movie/tv stories being consistent with what's on screen? We're back to the old tiers of canon even if they never admit it.
That's exactly how I've viewed Star Wars most of my adult life. Movies, shows and comics are adaptations of a legend or mythology. It keeps the mystery and discussion alive and it's a subtle way of telling you most of the story is told from a certain point of view that may change depending on what part of the story is being told
Everything is just from “a certain point of view” at the end of the day, right? That’s the Star Wars answer for everything, IRL people misremember events & details during times of extreme trauma so I’m sure that’s how they justify these changes when they decide to make them. But that’s how I choose to view it.
I always felt that the comics, video games, and novels were too much to understand and remember. The shows, cartoons, and films feel more canon to me. But that’s just me.
I'd like to meet the Story Group and ask, 'so what is it you do exactly?' These are minor gripes though, compared with the disregard for established lore in the Sequel trilogy, and internal story consistencies. And it's not like it can't be helped, the higher ups simply don't care enough. It's not an impossible task to be super on-point with consistency across mediums.
As an old fan of EU/Legends, I am used to canon changing on a dime, and the screen having the final say compared to the books, video games, comics, etc. The hair pulling over a small change from a comic just confuses me. I was very happy to see Caleb/Kanan, and the story is still there. Just like I still enjoy reading old EU books (just reread the Thrawn Trilogy) people can still enjoy the Kanan comics. It isn't actually erased from existence.
We have a third account of what happened that day/night on Kaller. In Rebels, when the Grand Inquisitor asks Kanan what the last thing he remembers his master saying to him was, Kanan simply answers "Run."
I mean, did we really NEED Kanan’appearence in this show?! Hell no!!!!!!! Filoni could have used any, ANY other Jedi, but he wanted to mess up with the comic book. Desrespectful!
Dave Filoni has always been incredibly disrespectful to other writers. He believes that because he makes animated series and had personal contact with George Lucas he is now the god of Star Wars who can overwrite anyone else's work on a whim.
I get the frustration. These are revisions to suit storytelling purposes. We just need to keep plodding along and find ways to accept the revisions as they come.
Depa Billaba: *has the wrong lightsaber colour*
Plo Koon: First time?
In what case was it with Plo?
@@jermo1470 every single one! His colour should be yellow, but it's blue all the time
Ki-Adi: I had the first purple lightsaber you know...
Yeah that detail tiggers the heck out of me. Billaba was a Jedi Consular and she had a greeeeeeeeeeen lightsaber
@@martmakesmusic It's also been green and orange.
I kind of wish we saw a different Jedi master and padawan. I think it would have been cool to see Cere Junda and Trilla Sudari from Fallen Order. It would have been a great way to connect a video game with a tv series.
Damn true
Was that so hard people? We would have received two epic things. But hell no, let's use some of the few jedi with an order 66 moment established
@@granalmirantethrawn2972 Would've needed explaining during the episode why Cere and Trilla weren't executed on sight but thousands of other jedi were, which is just an extra step of explanation that isn't really needed.
How do you play up the tragedy of Order 66 and the Bad Batch’s response to it if neither Cere or Trilla were killed during it?
Yeah. Seeing kanan also makes the universe feel SMALL! Like oh....of course a popular Jedi is shown with the bad batch. -_-
I think my big problem is that while the mythology angle can definitely work, that's definitely not how lucasfilm promotes or advertises Star Wars. That's why they made a big deal out of getting rid of the extended universe, establishing the story group and "everything being canon". So now it just kind of feels weird that they are basically going back to how it was when the extended Universe was around: some stuff is more true than others and liable to be overwritten.
Filoni is an egoist that's what happened. First, he disregarded Legends with his clone wars show, now he does the same with canon and the bad batch, even though he could just as easily used the early drafts for the bad batch being on Kashyyk. But now, he just went and twisted a years PROMISED continuity just to show his power over the universe
@@beenalive1736 I mean, Clone Wars was a Lucas decision during a period when we *knew* the EU could be overwritten by him, just like what happened with the prequels. I feel this is different
@@kampy19 Everything was Lucas's call about TCW indeed, the way it's Kathleen's now, and he came in some times and randomly threw ideas to the story group. Thing is, Filoni who was officially in charge still didn't care about legends and his ideas were the ones that always brought it off track. Lucas just approved. Now however, mr Dave pretends love to the EU he helped to kill no matter what else
@@beenalive1736 The EU was never canon to George.
@@marshamoseley5878 then wtf did he give any input or acknowledge lore from projects like Dark Empire, Heir to the Empire, Tales of the Jedi, and etc? It really irks me when I see people comment that same statement over and over again without any supporting info, ya know?
The opening bugs me a little, because it retcons some things from the kanan comic, but at least the broad strokes are the same. Caleb dume is on Kaller, the clone Grey turns on him and his master, Depa dies, he survives. I wish some things were more similar, but its not overall horrible
Agreed.
@@FinanceWageSlave on that we agree. Just turn up the pithc, its not hard Lucasfilm.
True, at least they kept some things, maybe the rest of the comic can still be considered canon(I REALLY hope they don't use Caleb anymore in the Bad batch, it would be only a source of troubles)
Also grey didn't actually die to bilaba so he could still sacrifice himself etc for kanan / Caleb
@@jameswg13 tru
Head canon: it’s different because it was from Kanans perspective and he is color blind 👍🏽
This is how I think of it. Different perspectives and memories
I am also Caleb and colorblind so I approve
Omg, that's genius! 😂
@@lholocron Don't act as if the writers just violated Human Rights
Hahaha! Is that why the clone armor color changed as well?
Personally, when moments like this happen I try to just make a “midground” where the best parts of each occur. For this, I like the idea of Hunter and Crosshair chasing canon but I also like the idea of a calm before Order 66
yes they could have done that in the series too, fight with the BB, cut to the night, and then same version of the comic from the BB perspective. In fact that is my personal canon now.
I do the same..its not a new thing with
star Wars:)
I saw it as bilaba didn't actually kill grey. She disarmed him and kicked him in the face, so he could still end up sacrificing himself for Caleb
@@TheCoolCucumber yes but they didn't have to show the entire scene at the falò, 5 seconds from the distance maybe with the BB and the order 66 just after that. I think for a person that never read the comic then it would has been interesting read the comic. But what is done is done (until next retcon :') )
@@jameswg13 oh yes the next part of the comic is still possible (hoping that they will not change that in the future of the series)
Regarding, "canon tiers", despite what Lucasfilm said in 2015, it is quite apparent that non-film media is treated the same way that is was treated in the old Legends EU. Basically, films trump TV, which trumps video games, which trumps novels, which trumps comics. Basically, film>tv shows>video games>novels>comics. I fully anticipate that the more films and tv shows we get, the more examples of elements of video games, books, and comics will get retconned, which is a clear example of the laziness of the story group, who is supposed to make sure that these things don't happen. The story group either needs to be expanded or given greater authority, as this is something that should have been caught during the writing process, or at the very least during the production of the show.
Agreed, they either need to commit to the new canon system, or admit they’re going back to the tiered system.
Or they should just make different universes. Mandoverse, Legends and.... Sequel verse
Very mature and level-headed reaction. Star Wars has always been modern mythology, and mythology changes from story to story.
Well said
Honestly what bothers me most is every green lightsaber being replaced with a blue one. I don't even understand why they keep doing this.
To be fair, it's not the biggest deal. Lightsaber colors have been like this for years and years on end.
@@TheCoolCucumber I used to look at it like that but honestly these days I don't put too much stock in it and to be honest I don't think most makers tend to either. I mean Plo Koon at this point has wielded every color in existence, I've seen some Jedi wield red, stuff like this isn't that big a deal.
@@TheCoolCucumber Jedi classes from what I've heard are kind of a thing but to a smaller degree like for instance, I think Jedi Temple guards specifically have yellow and so on but aside from that, there's not much of that going on, especially since saber colors are made from the crystal's reaction to the user now.
@@TheCoolCucumber I forget when exactly but the earliest I saw it was in Rebels when Ezra got his crystal.
@@TheCoolCucumber I also think a canon Mace Windu comic showed it off and a bit more clearly there whereas Rebels was more spiritual and subtle in nature.
Why does no one talk about the fact that Captain Antilles has a British accent in Revenge of the Sith but an American accent in Rogue One
Or why Wedge has a dubbed over American voice in ANH, Lawson’s impression of an American accent in ESB, Lawson’s natural Scottish accent in ROTJ, and an American accent again in Rebels.
Fun fact. The actor who was Captain Antilles in Revenge of the Sith wasn't British. He's Australian and he used an Australian accent for the scene from what I could tell. It's so quick you don't notice as it's one line.
The way I think of it when inconsistencies happen is that all shows, movies, books, comics, and games that we enjoy are all just legends. "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far, away" means we are hearing a story told from multiple people over time, almost like the telephone game. One person might say the comic version happened, and another person might say the show version happened, but they are both correct!
I like to think of Star Wars as a multiverse myself.
That is the way Legends is meant to work.
Not the canon
The point of the new Canon was to get away from that to have a consistent story. Mind you, that's a fine way to look at it, but that's not for everyone.
@@stephenjenkins7971 That may have been the point of the new canon, but we still have "They fly now!" even though Poe has seen jet troopers in the comics and we have The Clone Wars loosely adapting the so-called "Canon" comics and overriding them.
@@realJoeMavro yeah, they keep dropping the ball.
The canon is meant to work a certain way (by Lucasfilm’s own policy) and they keep ignoring it.
If you think about it, Kanan was wasted for like 10 years straight after order 66 so his memories are gonna be a little foggy
Actually kanan was, and he was also drunk.
That’s kinda how I think about stuff like this
@arzyb in the kanan comics and the new dawn book its made clear kanan was an alchoholic right up to the start of rebels. He worked odd jobs and then immediatly turned around and spent all his money on alchohol
@@bluesquadron8667 hmmmm..... Havent i heard of that kind of jedi dealing with alcoholism.
@@bluesquadron8667 What if that gets retconned too?
"These are all in-univesere tales that might not line up perfectly" is such a *frustating* cop-out. They promised us everything would be equally canon. This is why they got rid of Legends. Why do, and why did we ever, have Story Group if they're going to keep pulling this crap?
Every day the petty hypocrisy for the death of Legends grows. And in the end it will destroy them...
Legends was contradicted within itself and by the films as well. I don't understand why everyone has this rose-colored glasses view of the former EU now. It was never a completely cohesive story either.
@@BornAgainEmo Maybe not, but as a whole, it still told a better story than the sequel trilogy, and had better characters.
That is what many of us miss.
@@BornAgainEmo yes legends did have contradictions but also didn't make a big song and dance about how incredibly consistent it was; it only tried to be as consistent as it could be while admitting that there would be contradictions
@@BornAgainEmothat's just how SW fans are regardless of Canon or EU
It’s easy enough for me to accept that the events of the Star Wars universe are conveyed to us through an unreliable narrator, where the broad strokes and themes are the emphasis but the tiny details get muddled and altered as these “legends” get passed down or retold.
Im my own headcanon it makes sense kinda. Since the Kanan comic is technically a flashback from kanan’s point of views so maybe that’s just his version of what happened.
Star Wars is kind of known to do this in regards to media vs comics/written material. I remember how Even Piell was written into Coruscant Nights I: Jedi Twilight but they had to retcon that when he died in the 3rd season of the clone wars before that story took place
But then the reverse is also sometimes true. I think there was something with Mace Windu fighting Grevious on top of a droid starfighter during the siege of Coruscant which contradicts what happened in an earlier version with Grevious chasing down Palpatine and fighting Shak-Ti in the 2003 Clone Wars television show.
That was true for Legends. We were told canon would be different.
@@GhoulishGwyn yes it was promised that there wouldn't be problems with the continuity in the Canon timeline
I think the 2003 clone wars was already set up to not be part of the “legends” canon. Since the comics and books followed s different continuity.
So maybe not a retcon just kind of it’s own alternate story outside of the eu continu
@@GhoulishGwyn We were told that this universe would be different but to be fair, we were NEVER told that retcons weren't gonna happen every so often. They'd try to keep it consistent as much as possible but sometimes retcons are gonna happen whether it's someone like Dave Filoni doing it for the sake of his story (And usually not without a good reason for doing so and I think eventually he should at least address this.) due to advice he received from George Lucas about not always letting canon dictate what stories he should tell or occasionally yes filmmakers making a reckless decision (Oh hai TROS, everyone would rather forget you were the one to throw caution to the wind when it came to remaining consistent to the canon which later had to be fixed.). Because the sad truth is, every universe is gonna have retcons.
Though to give the canon credit, it so far has not gotten to Legends levels where you have whole entire storylines that speak about a version of the Clone Wars that just doesn't exist, Dark Empire which has a different implied backstory for Palpatine that involves him being this ancient Sith that just used the body transfer power whenever he was about to die due to Dark Side degradation and so on. At most here we have TCW season 7 which altered some stuff about the Siege of Mandalore but is easy to accept because... well the Ahsoka novel was made back when we never thought we'd get Siege of Mandalore animated so it was just them throwing TCW fans as much of a bone as they could and later reprints of the book went back and even changed the saber colors to make it fit more with the canon. Various comics that have been released have occasionally had errors that were then corrected for reprints and trades. Cobb Vanth had some details changed around... but that was easy to accept since it was from his perspective. The most egregious I'd say it has ever gotten was this... but it's not the worst ever. If anything, I trust that Dave Filoni most likely has a good explanation for this and if there isn't there are plenty of rationalizations one can make and plenty of ways for the comic itself in later prints to fix this for those completionists, rationalizations that I even have a feeling Dave might've taken into account when you look at the two versions of the story and see the similarities that were kept so all in all, I think we're still following that mission. I'd say we should wait a bit before we say officially that the new canon's EU is useless to follow.
@@GhoulishGwyn I belive the sequel trilogy will be retcon for good
My headcanon:
The Bad Batch version is how Order 66 happened involving Caleb Dume.
The Kanan comic is how Kanan remembers order 66 happening.
Due to the trauma of the fast paced situation and his years of alcoholism and mental instability, Kanan's memory shifted regarding that moment. He didn't remember The Bad Batch because he only knew them for a few minutes and his pain and guilt amplified the moment to a point where he believed the night before, when he was enjoying time with the clones, was when it took place. The rest of the events took place mostly as seen in the comic.
As for the colour of Depa Billaba's lightsaber blade and Commander Grey's helmet, perhaps those were the colours of the items which Caleb Dume got familiar with, however they were changed shortly before Kaller; due to the trauma of the situation and years of alcoholism and anguish, his memory of Kaller was hazy at best and he filled in the gaps with what he knew (which ended up being slightly skewed from the truth).
It wouldn't be as much of a problem if Lucasfilm didn't say that they were going to treat everything the same.
Exactly. Whats the point of saying that when you dont respect the other media?? Its like those comics arent going to be considered in the future... (at least in series and films).
Yep. They were fine promising that to get us to buy more books, but now they don’t want to follow through.
It’s kinda like Doctor Who’s continuity where everything’s canon until it isn’t.
For me, I just ignore what executives promise on behalf of good writers. It’s a nice concept that everything is gonna connect unlike last time, but like, if I like both stories, I’m gonna revisit them and love them separately. Even if they conflict.
I used to read every Star Wars comic and novel, and I haven't read a single one now in like 3 years after it became clear that the whole statement that everything is canon now was just an outright lie to get people to buy the other media. They have no problem ignoring or totally retconning anything from any of the novels or comics. Why should I bother spending any money on any of it or wasting time reading it then? Which is why I don't.
THIS is why I love this channel so much and why I consider it the best Star Wars channel on TH-cam.
The sequences in Kanan: The Last Padawan were flashbacks from the point of view of a recovering alcoholic with PTSD, fifteen years after the event happened.
There's no way his memory wouldn't be compromised or fragmented. In the real world, these recollections can be even more distorted.
To quote a character from another sci-fi series I like: "make sure that you don't get too hung up on the details as it's the bigger picture that matters!"
Idk what thats from but that's good advice
@@SuperTunnelBoy Bradley Johansson (I think that's the spelling) from Pandora's star. The first book of The Commonwealth saga by Peter f Hamilton; he actually said this to somebody who was trying to capture him!
While that’s true Disney clearly got hung up on the details from Legends. It’s just weirdly hypocritical
So agree with this. Never really minded inconsistencies. Stories are about having fun, learning, feeling the emotions they try to impart. I don't want to have to imagine them as textbooks that I need to recite perfectly on an AP exam.
I agree. I don’t think Filoni should be restricted from using the character he created because of a comic.
@@reality8470 why tf did he allow the author of the comic to use the character in the first place then?
@@granalmirantethrawn2972 Never realized he would have the opportunity to show off his story in an animated show.
@@collecter343 that's...fair enough. But it's still inconsistent with Kanan's behavior in rebels.
@@granalmirantethrawn2972 I'm full comitted for version from the comic, but why is TBB version inconsistent with Rebels? He still watched his Master death, he was pursued by clones, he thought Hunter is decieving him, since Crosshair attacked him. He has no reason to trust a clone in TBB too.
Head canon: the comic is told from Kanan's perspective. The show is told from the Bad Batch's perspective.
The bad batch must had been drug, they even imagined an order 66 moment with Caleb Dume
This slightly works
This is a worthy solution, even better fit to the spirit of Star Wars. "From a different point of view." Kanan told the story to the Ghost crew, and do not forget he was a little kid at the time. After Jedi Fallen Order, we can imagine what he needed to deal with.
That's a good head Canon ngl
@@TheCoolCucumber the colors are kinda hard to explain, but you could view the time changes as Kanan mixing together memories. Maybe he had that calm night with the troops a day or two earlier, and it was the last nice thing he remembered doing with them so it mixed with his memories of order 66. Trauma can do a lot to someone’s memories
I am ok with small changes going from the word medium to the show/video medium BUT people like things for a reason. Characters doing certain actions, interacting a certain way. Small potatoes though
To me its just harder to get invested in these stories when there's a chance its just gone in a year because someone felt like doing it differently.
And it’s always something Filoni is involved with. I think he’s brilliant, but I get the impression he’s never been onboard with the new canon.
@@GhoulishGwyn he was like this with legends too.
It’s. Not. Gone. No one went to your house and threw away your comics. If a story affected you, then it still exists.
@@ghareebcolt3954 yeah but at least then it was already a mess and with George who didn't consider that stuff canon anyways. Now its like we have Legends, Canon, and Non-Canon Canon.
@@obi-wan-jacobi840 im well aware lol, KOTOR is still one of my faves, and i had no issue with them decanonizing Legends, but when this is constantly happening its harder to care as much. If ROTJ started off by saying Vader didn't actually say he was his father, itd be pretty annoying. Obviously this is much smaller than that but its still a bummer to see happen still. I love reading about the universe and characters because it builds out the wider story, I just wish that story was consistent. This is just a personal view, i wish i didn't care about it because then itd be easier to just have fun, but i just personally enjoy it when a universe is all consistent.
My headcanon is that due to a lot of trauma and alcoholism, Kanan has misremembered a lot of details of Order 66, and unknowingly merged and confused some memories, due to his perspective of it all, and that the "true" version of events is the one depicted in The Bad Batch.
+
Love this response!
It could work.
You could look at it this way: in the Kaanan comic, what happened on Kaller was told in a flashback from Kaanan's point of view, and there is a possibility that in all of that drama and trauma, he may remember things happening in a different order than how it actually happened.
Also kanan hasn’t been cought yet. They know he lives because of crosshair, so grey might yet get his redemption. Just not the day after order 66 but more like a few weeks (which would actually make more sense do to them getting used to the chip). We just have to wait and see how their story ends
Im pretty sure it was a few weeks in the comics as well
And grey is Alive he got kicked in the face but Alive
As a fan of Legends, I honestly don't really mind when things get retconned (especially in small ways like they have so far). My only gripe is that lucasfilm made a huge deal about every story counting and everything being Canon. If you're going to make that announcement and Pat yourselves on the back, follow through with your promise.
Yeah, a few years later they are complaining about how hard it is to keep a canon, please don't complain if you see a retcon or contradiction. Seriously, what were they thinking? They should had just said that the levels of canon were a thing again
That assumes competance from the story group...
@@Tyler_W probably they are good, but often ignored, like probably in ep 9 regarding all the book and comics story prior to ep 9, like Resistance Reborn, etc.
Still think they should at least consider a multiverse.
I like the idea that the bad batch is how it really happend, just kanan was scared and young so he muddles the details retelling it, like say Grey and styles were actually Grey and the Bad Batch (crosshair) which is why their armor kinda has a bad batch look to it.
100% agree with Alex's interpretation. Giant fictional universes become a lot more enjoyable and relaxing if you view the media as sort of folk tales. Occasionally pieces of media will conflict a bit, but that's just because your engaging in legends, not a historical account.
I think the Bad Batch version should be considered canon, as Dave Filoni made Kanan and therefore should get to decide what happened during Order 66.
I also do wish the show saw a different scenario, maybe the battle in the show was the day before, and as the Order 66 scene in Kanan comics happens the Bad Batch are sleeping and awake to see Kanan run into the woods, as Depa Billaba falls to the ground
My take: these are redrafts, rather than retcons, per say. The unexpected return of Clone Wars after its cancellation (and subsequent commissioning of Bad Batch) led to a previously unforeseen opportunity to revisit and redraft events that the creators never foresaw they'd get the opportunity to do. In the same way that the previously canonical Bad Batch animatics from 20(14? 15?) were superceded by a redrafted finished arc for Season 7, I believe the same approach can be taken with the Siege Of Mandalore and the opening scene of Bad Batch.
I'm not in favour of this happening regularly, and I totally relate to people feeling put out by these changes. But, if kept to a minimum as merely a kind of redraft, I'm fine with them (mostly).
Also, 100% agree with your 'Star Wars is a retelling of mythology and the details sometimes get changed over time' take.
Same, as long as the changes are small I'm okay with the retcons
This is my favorite way of taking this by far. Thank you
I personally don’t have a huge problem with them retconning some of the events from the Kanan comic. Especially when the broad strokes are still there; Caleb Dume is on Kaller, Commander Gray and the Clones are given Order 66, Master Depa Billaba is killed after telling Caleb to run, and Caleb manages to get away. The events that occur are still the same, it’s just how they play out that are slightly altered.
Plus I feel this new turn of events really helps justify Kanan’s initial distrust and distaste towards Rex, Wolfe, and Gregor later in Rebels. Sure any Jedi that survived Order 66 would initially be distrustful towards any Clones they encounter, that goes without saying. But what Kanan experienced wasn’t exactly black and white. He was being chased by the Bad Batch who just wanted to help him and Crosshair who tried to carry out Order 66. Anyone who manages to survive that situation wouldn’t know who or what to believe.
When I was watching it I was like: "Oh, well ..." It wasn't until this night that I started to be really frustrated at the point that I was awake at 4 a.m. thinking about this. You helped me a lot. Now this is how I see it: the events from the Kanan comics happened, right before order 66 they met the Bad Batch and the Order 66 scene from the series is more a summary of that from the comics. And Depa Billaba's lightsaber is definitely green.
I like the way you explain your opinion, well done. No story being told is explained in its entirety. No absolutes, they have to flow, keep changing.
I love seeing anything adapted on screen. Best thing about being up to date on cannon is being rewarded with a moment on screen that you read about. I can totally understand being let down about some needless changes but let’s be real, when we heard Kallar we were all hyped.
Yeah
2015: At least the bad EU stuff like palpatine surviving and luke's severed hand being cloned are no longer canon. And they promised us a consistent timeline which is neat.
2021: ...
Yeah...we all have regrets...
Ikr why even separating legends from Canon when there isn't a consistent timeline at all?
Expanded Universe > Disney Canon. Even with the silly stuff
To be fair, we still don't know what the purpose of Luke's severed hand is I don't think in the new canon so for all we know, it could just be a cute reference and Palpatine surviving from the looks of things they're gonna treat like this. They are gonna explain the hell out of how it could've happened and then they are NEVER gonna touch that again and will scream if someone brings up that idea.
@@the-aspiring-creator4249 Lukes severed hand has a purpose?
You're a Star Wars jewel on TH-cam. I was frustrated through the whole episode, I am still a bit annoyed, even when I made my own headcanon, but you bring such reason and love with your words to many people with many opinions, it's heartwarming :)
Great video. I do wish that we just saw another Jedi/Padawan duo, and had Crosshair kill the Padawan. But, alas.
After what Disney did to the finale of Amphibia? I don't think they want to be anywhere near that idea.
@@Planag7 explain
Wait, you are talking of the release of the final of that show before the right date? What does have to do with star wars?
@@granalmirantethrawn2972 I'm explaining why it got leaked in the first place it got leaked because Disney was telling them to change what happened so if they wanted to change the implied death of a kid why would they go ahead with showing a Padawan being killed?
That's what has to do with Star wars in this context and besides giving it a connection to rebels is kind of a thing.
@@Planag7 oooh
Damn, I get it now. Yeah, it's sad that they just don't want to show that dark reality, but I guess it's right in a way, these shows are still targeted to kids too, and Tbb was kinda darker than I expected, I heard the same about Amphibia.
Of course that doesn't mean they should've treated that show so bad, seriously, they really did a mess, if you want a change in the already made ending don't allow the ending being leaked. Bad played, I hope they make it up in some way
I used to be a completionist but it became too hard to keep up with. The last novel I read was a crash of fate and I never read any of the books following that. (Though i did get from a certain point of view: empire cause i really enjoy those) Seeing cracks in the canon oddly gives me comfort because it makes the need to take in everything less significant. If there are inconsistencies it’s easier to just read what you like and remember that at its core it’s the cinematic stuff that matters. (Though I’m still reading every marvel comic)
This is an instance where "unreliable narrator" is perfectly valid as a defense for the conflicting details.
It is and it also works with cobb vanth but dave filoni should (in my opinion) stop doing this
@@zactrollo8402 I disagree, I love when writers adapt or use characters or stories from other media, but if they are to do this and make it feel meaningful to the story they are telling, they are going to have to change some details. If the people (Jon, Dave, etc) are required to adhere exactly to the source material, they will be very limited and it will come off as purely fanservice as they won’t be able to adapt it to fit their story. This would lead to characters and stories from books and comics not being used as it would be more trouble than it’s worth.
I don’t think that works here because the comic book and the TV show visually show the events as they were happening, they weren’t being recounted from one person to another after they happened
@@RevanMartinez The way it’s presented in the comic is as canon remembering it.
I’m only concerned with the Obi-wan series overwriting the Rebels episode Twin Suns...
That's not going to happen, Vader is the only Sith that Obi wan will fight in that show(not counting possible inquisitors)
@Grand Admiral Theme Park We can hope.
@@granalmirantethrawn2972 Ah yes, but remember the loophole... Maul isn’t a Sith anymore...
Won't happen. Pretty sure Dave Filoni has a role in both. Besides, the major inconsistencies only really only violate books and comics
@@henryhammond7393 right, I forgot it. But I still think he is not going to be in the show
Have you heard about the video polemic with Ray Park? He is definitely not working with Lucasfilm or Disney again, so if they bring Maul they would need a different actor(and let's be honest, getting other actor would be a pointless effort, Maul doesn't need to be in that show, Vader and the inquisitors are a good enough threat to Obi wan)
I'm not ready to write off the entire series of the this one thing. There is room for the two to work together
Perfectly said! I similarly think of the different mediums as a different lens on the stories. It'd be great for everything to line up perfectly, but I don't want storytellers to sacrifice what they find to be compelling or effective in order to fit within the confines of what other stories established. As long as the broad strokes and core of the stories remain fairly consistent, variations in specific details, tone, and presentation aren't a big deal.
That's actually a really useful way of conceptualizing the discrepancies. Thanks for sharing! :-)
I think the lightsaber color is actually the thing that can't be forgiven. Yes, narratively it's entirely irrelevant but that also means there's absolutely NO REASON to change it. In such a case the promise of Canon should most certainly overwrite authors preference.
TBF, due to it being a streaming series and no hard copies being in distribution (as far as I am aware), they could always change it. It doesn't SEEM to be that big of a tweak.
I see it as a visual que of how close they are
It seems more like a continuity error than an intentional change
Also the color of the clones' armor (lime in TBB, orange-red in the comics). Utterly inconsequential, changed seemingly just to annoy people like us
@@Weebusaurus right?? Okay, just forget about Styles existance if you want, but can't you at least do Commander Gray right? Come on...
@@granalmirantethrawn2972 Who's to say Styles isn't in the background?
The way I see it, there is a story group for a reason. If they can't do their job to keep things consistent, and provide opportunities for good story arcs, members should be shuffled or removed.
I think it's pretty clear they used Caleb to set the emotional stakes. We know Caleb survived Order 66, so that's not a big deal, but putting the Batch in there and having Caleb specifically survive them makes his survival more impressive.
Depa Billaba's saber was changed from green to blue because it seems like Disney wants to completely erase the green for whatever reason.
Luke and Leia were romantic in the original Star Wars comic series after New Hope.
@starwarsexplained I felt you handled this EXTREMELY well! Over the past couple days, I have seen so many content creators just get all mad and hate on the addition of Caleb Dume and Depa Billaba because of the comic. You handled it in the best way I have seen: by understanding both sides of the argument and explaining why either argument is TOTALLY okay to have. But you did this while also explaining what the purpose of stories in Star Wars is for, and I really appreciated that.
I think the best way to look at it is that Kanan's memory of Order 66 is foggy because A.) he was a child when it happened and your memory changes as you grow (I don't really remember much of my childhood if I'm being honest) B.) Order 66 was extremely traumatic so he would have unconsciously changed parts of it or remembered it differently to deal with that trauma and C.) he basically became an alcoholic afterwards so again his memory would've been compromised. I think both the comic and what we saw go down in The Bad Batch episode are valid. The way I look at it is the comic is how Kanan remembers Order 66 happening and TBB episode is how Hunter and the other members of the squadron remember Order 66. Both versions of the story are valid :)
Also - debates and theories about causes, effects, and courses of events happen between historians all the time.
You can imagine it as like this: if the Journal of the Whills tells one version but say, the Bendu tells one with the same basic summary but different details.
History is also a matter of prospective. We know about events in our history but they can have so many different prospectives.
That makes sense to me too
I love seeing everyone's point of view of things like this to kind of alter my perspective of Star Wars
It just seemed so avoidable. Like why kanan? It could've been literally anyone else
That's questionable, with the passing of years we've known that more of 2 jedis surviving order 66, and it isn't so much of the deal if the list is short. But if in the future they expand this list, it would contradict sometimes the OT because people would start asking "Where has he during the original trilogy?" Making a little bit more of confusion in my opinion. And i don't think we would see any reference to the videogames in the series
For convenience. It was key that we saw how Bad Batch reacted, and more importantly defied, order 66. We have more connection to someone like Depa and Caleb than if he were to create a jedi just to die 5 minutes in.
Saying this, I feel like it could've been avoided, though i'm not sure how. BB couldn't have been with Ahsoka, they couldn't have been with Cal Kestis either. There is an argument for Cere and Trilla but there would need to be an explaination why they weren't killed on the spot when the others were instantly.
There are still plenty of jedi to choose from. Even Quinlan Vos whose fate we don't know. Besides the focus is about the bad batch not the jedi. The scene is for how they react and that could've been dobe with any jedi. Ironically in an attempt to make everything seem like it all connects they broke continuity. I'm not one to get super upset about that but this just seemed so avoidable
@@jacknathe8135 I feel like order 66 is something that should be seen by rather than told to clone force 99. It would be a lot harder to question the orders without having been present when they happened. They saw with their own eyes that these jedi weren't traitors to the republic, and I think that is vital.
I feel also it is more appropriate to the story to show a younger padawan deal with order 66 rather than someone like Quinlan. Hunter reaching out to help Caleb works better as he's a frightened child, afraid and alone, just as how Omega feels.
Quinlan is a trained and powerful Jedi. With his attitude and positionality, I feel like he would've stood his ground and tried to fight the clones/bad batch moreso than run which would've meant conflict between the two rather than a show of remorse.
@@e115mastery you misunderstand me. I definitely think it should be shown, but the points you bring up work with any child. My point is that not everything has to be someone we know. When bail see that child gunned down in revenge of the sith is that moment any less powerful because we don't know their extensive history?
People have to keep in mind that the Kanan comic was made at a time when no one was sure what the future of the Clone Wars looked like. People who worked on the animated side of things wanted to put ideas they'd had for the screen into some sort of media, which is how other books/comics like Ahsoka, Dark Disciple, and Maul: Son of Dathomir came to be. Now that Filoni and co. know they can present those stories the way they initially planned, I expect there will be a few more retcons in the future.
I think the likelihood of the Dark Disciple Ventress story being adapted and altered just became a lot more likely.
Here a idea, in the comic is how Kanan remembers it. Like it was a dark time and feel like a calmest before the storm, so he see it at night and quiet. But say Hunter see it as just any other day, so we see that in the day time and Order 66 just happen. That just how I see it.
I'd imagine the Kanan comic is more canon accurate (so to speak) because the story is given more time.
The Bad Batch version is quicker paced because the episode would've been boring otherwise. So at least in my headcanon, maybe the Bad Batch camped with the clones and Jedi that evening and then Order 66 happened
My headcanon is that the quiet moment where Caleb bonds with his troopers now happened the night before order 66 as opposed to the night of, and the moment the order happened was rearranged to be during the battle after that night, with the way Depa's death and Caleb escaping went down in The Bad Batch being the correct version of the events. Then when Caleb runs away into the forest, the rest of the comic still happens as shown.
Also, the change to Depa's lightsaber and Grey's armor color is so minor that I don't really even care. Chalk it up purely to artistic expression.
Seeing each account of star wars as mythology is a really cool approach
Well, from a fans perspective thats only watched the films & shows. I'm glad we got to see this play out on screen! Also, hearing freddie voicing him again was a treat & I love this opening! So props to filoni & co. for putting this in & glad I got to see this moment play out in this beautiful animation! 😊👍💙
I agree. I haven't read the comic and plus like someone else said, Filoni created Kanan/Caleb so he should have a say with what is done with the character. Film/TV always trumps comics and books.
Definitely not a fan of changes, especially when this could have easily been avoided by not having Kanan. Seems like they just wanted to connect animated stuff.
I think the original story was good, and that moment pays off when one of the clones sacrifices himself to save Kanan later in the story.
Wow the explanation you gave at 2:40 is so good !!
In Legends there is two versions of the Clone wars: The Star Wars: Republic comics (with books, video games and an animated series), which were released between 2002 and 2005, and The Clone Wars tv series of 2008
There's also the 2d series from 2003.
@@vincinel114 that one was part of the republic comics, they respect each other
@@granalmirantethrawn2972 Ah, I missed that.
The 2008 Clone Wars series was always canon.
That's what I've thought about with Star Wars. From a Certain Point of View may be hilarious, but it's bringing legitimacy to all angles.
The way I view canon is that whatever happens in the movies and TV shows has priority over books, comic, and games.
After all the movies and shows are the primary media that people view.
Agreed
Games should be considered as important as shows and movies, they require a lot of effort
@@granalmirantethrawn2972 Agreed, though not necessarily the game mechanics
@@reality8470 exactly
That’s not what Lucasfilm promised, though. What you’re describing is the tiered canon system before 2014.
The way to view story retcons/changes is basically what Obiwan said: “What I told you was true... from a certain point of view.”
I must say my Star Wars Day was kinda ruined by these retcons. I don't understand why The Bad Batch had to be created at the cost of retconing a previous canon comic. If this is happening again and again, then what's the point of having the Story Group out there? Aren't they the ones that should get the job done, to maintain consistency in the new canon? Is it some sort of tough mission to be completed? I think not. I felt so so betrayed and so so furious!
Interesting because this is how I also was able to accept Canon and the Expanded Universe existing side by side. Kotor I-II is the best example where the story had multiple outcomes, based on the player, and those events happened millennials before the OT. What made them more close to ancient mythology rather history. So it was very appealing to me when they started using the term "Legends". The fans of the Mandalorians was now ironically was very upset to Filoni back when Season 2 where they retcon a lot. It was good to hear Freddy Prince Jr, but for those whose watching it chronological order may feel bizarre. Katooni had been a better choice. Seeing a familiar face die may signify to the audience that an era is completely over, and would give motivation to Hunter if she died by accident, stunned at mid air.
As much as I love the kanan comic the bad batch DID one up the comic in on aspect....Depa’s scream. Oh my god that was horrifying and I can see why order 66 scarred him so much. I still think the stuff before and after order 66 is canon.
The way I see it, the Kanan comic version is coming from his memory of the event fifteen years prior.
I've always viewed Disney Canon as Film & TV as the main canon storyline with the comics, books, etc as the offshoot storys that they can pull from and adapt... if you look at the Marvel Comics and the Marvel Cinematic Universe there are elements that are different in the MCU from the Marvel Comics they pull from... Disney has always been a film & tv first company, so that's how I view it.
Star Wars has always had retcons. In the return to the Jedi novelization, Owen was described as Obi-wan’s brother but attack of the clones retcons that.
Grey must have been demoted too cause he’s captain now, and Calebs the commander. Kinda the same as the Captain Rex’s situation with Ashoka.
Not exactly, once you are considered a traitor you loose your rank, Caleb was a traitor and an enemy of the republic
I like the idea of retreading some stories from different angles and adjusting them for that perspective.
I definitely want to see the Darth Maul episode of Rebels recreated in the Obi-Wan series, for instance. Without Ezra Bridger present. That's possible now.
I’m fine with the change, Kanan/Caleb is Dave Filoni’s character so the story he decides to present makes most sense
I agree
I love how clear you explain Star Wars and how you never put down any fans' theories or thoughts on subjects like this 👍🏻 it really feels like anyone can watch these videos and learn something, this coming from a relatively new fan (since 2015) and sequel lover (here comes the hate)
The problem is, these changes aren't details. In the series Kanan never met the other characters he would interact with after order 66 and never could (like his "friend" and the separatist general). So I think it's difficult to mix these things up in my headcannon. These interactions make a big part of this comics and are based on what's been established in the early issues. Also, as a TV show the Bad Batch has influence on lots and lots of other material like TCW and possibly other TV shows and comics, so it technically is "more canon" (you have to take it into account in the broader Filoniverse). And that's especially annoying since I really like the Bad Batch and the Kanan comics. I don't think it was a bad idea to make Kanan be the jedi in the Order 66 scene, because our emotionnal connection is way bigger than with most random TCW jedi, but I think it could have been made way better, like have the battle for the capital be after the skirmish we see in the show, and have the Bad Batch be chilling at another firecamp when order 66 happened, and the scene at the waterfall later that night (also everyone is talking about the lightsaber color change, but not about Grey's armor and Style's disappearance)
Super agree with everything you're saying here. The needs of the story come first, no matter what.
There seems to be a little too much canon vs head canon these days. For me, it asks the question of why is there a story group at Lucasfilm? I know there have been retcons in the past but they never said this is canon vs this is not prior to 2014.
This latest thing and the Cobb Vanth thing really aren't enough to question the purpose of the story group. 99.9% of the new Star Wars canon is consistent.
@@lightspeedbear 99.9%? That’s a bit generous. What about the Siege of Mandalore and Ahsoka? I don’t really have a problem with them changing things since the vast majority of people that watched the show did not read the comics or books. Myself included. But I also think they’re the one that said “ This is canon, this isn’t. So they should stick to it. Otherwise, why make Legends at all?
It's a change but hardly anything to get miffed about. I like your point about Star Wars being myths and therefore subject to change upon re-telling. Besides, Caleb was a child who was traumatized. Trauma tends to change memories.
I first I was confused and was okay with it and there could be different perspective I guess. Lol. I'm fine with it. Great video
Jedi having inconsistent lightsaber colors has been a trend dating all the way back to 1999; Mace Windu originally had a blue lightsaber before Samuel L Jackson wanted a purple one to more easily see himself in a crowd of Jedi. Plo Koon, Adi Gallia, and Ki Adi Mundi are other Jedi who had unconventional colors before they were standardized.
My simple headcanon is that their lightsabers just needed an upgrade after being damaged or whatever, and I’ll just assume the same thing happened with Depa Billaba.
Back in the EU days, we had to sort everything into different tiers of canon to decide what counts throughout all the rampant contradictions. So just having lightsabers be the wrong color is a massive improvement
Yep! N00Bs lol j/k
You do bring up a very good point about Deba Billipa lightsaber’s colour change. Never noticed that before.
This retcon was too much for me. I'm worry that canon will become one big mess. Retcons aside, both scenes are great, so It's really hard to choose. I quess I will go with the bad batch version.
I think that these retcons are limited -they are story/connection serving.
The choice to show Caleb and Deppa was 100% for the sake of emotion. We wouldn't care about some rando, but a lot more people would care about seeing characters we actually know.
Its annoying when it does happen but I 100% understand it.
I also agree with the whole idea of the stories being passed down etc. That's why I kinda think as legends as still canon... they're legends aka stories told to people passed down for cultural or historical reasons. Even though I'm not a huge legends fan
If they didn't bother making sure the Sequel Trilogy itself had a consistent story why would they care about non-movie/tv stories being consistent with what's on screen? We're back to the old tiers of canon even if they never admit it.
That's exactly how I've viewed Star Wars most of my adult life. Movies, shows and comics are adaptations of a legend or mythology. It keeps the mystery and discussion alive and it's a subtle way of telling you most of the story is told from a certain point of view that may change depending on what part of the story is being told
Everything is just from “a certain point of view” at the end of the day, right? That’s the Star Wars answer for everything, IRL people misremember events & details during times of extreme trauma so I’m sure that’s how they justify these changes when they decide to make them. But that’s how I choose to view it.
I love your idea of chalking up the publishing stories to mythology. I never thought of it that way.
I always felt that the comics, video games, and novels were too much to understand and remember. The shows, cartoons, and films feel more canon to me. But that’s just me.
Agreed. This is why I gave up on reading the expanded universe content, it’s all just a complete mess.
@@dawsynasay4841 or maybe you are just too lazy to read the good stories in it, and you justify that saying that it's all a mess.
Yeah same. However I have the games in my timeline though just because they’re games and not pictures.
@@granalmirantethrawn2972 not too lazy. I prefer watching and seeing the characters move than reading it. It’s just a different experience.
@@Dylan_1263 still an excuse for not reading haha its ok to admit not liking to read, we are in 2021. Everyone have their preferences.
I'd like to meet the Story Group and ask, 'so what is it you do exactly?'
These are minor gripes though, compared with the disregard for established lore in the Sequel trilogy, and internal story consistencies. And it's not like it can't be helped, the higher ups simply don't care enough. It's not an impossible task to be super on-point with consistency across mediums.
As an old fan of EU/Legends, I am used to canon changing on a dime, and the screen having the final say compared to the books, video games, comics, etc. The hair pulling over a small change from a comic just confuses me. I was very happy to see Caleb/Kanan, and the story is still there. Just like I still enjoy reading old EU books (just reread the Thrawn Trilogy) people can still enjoy the Kanan comics. It isn't actually erased from existence.
Yes this is so true. It feels like babies first contradiction.
I cant help but scratch my head
I really love your way of thinking for the star wars canon. I'm gonna adopt this mindset, it validates everything
Doesn't bother me in the slightest, but I don't hold it against anyone that it does bother. 🤷♂️
We have a third account of what happened that day/night on Kaller. In Rebels, when the Grand Inquisitor asks Kanan what the last thing he remembers his master saying to him was, Kanan simply answers "Run."
I mean, did we really NEED Kanan’appearence in this show?! Hell no!!!!!!!
Filoni could have used any, ANY other Jedi, but he wanted to mess up with the comic book. Desrespectful!
Dave Filoni has always been incredibly disrespectful to other writers. He believes that because he makes animated series and had personal contact with George Lucas he is now the god of Star Wars who can overwrite anyone else's work on a whim.
@@stanvanr7149 true
I get the frustration. These are revisions to suit storytelling purposes. We just need to keep plodding along and find ways to accept the revisions as they come.