In this video we tackle when and how your stability control can get you into trouble, and we debunk a R&T article with a warning straight from every Ford owners manual.
Old man here. Drove a lot of hot cars back in the day. I am no expert but from what I am seeing regarding Mustangs crashing while leaving car shows, it is clear to me that there has to be some sort of "system" that is fighting the driver. It isn't that they crash but the way that they crash. It just looks strange to me. I have seen many, many hot rods leave events in spectacular ways and many drivers lose control. But back before all of these systems designed to "assist" the driver, cars rarely crashed this way. Mostly, if you lost traction the car would spin around like a top but it wouldn't keep trying to go forward as these cars are doing. Back then getting sideways wasn't that big a deal. So I agree with you. We never had these issues when the brakes were just either all grabbing or not. Clearly, having a computer control the brakes individually, is the source of the problem that has the driver and computer in conflict.
Thankyou for explaining how the dynamics within the later model Mustang GT work as I'm about to purchase my first Mustang & being use to driving old school 1970 model V8s, was concerned as to why so many Mustang drivers were losing control of their vehicles. I endeavor to drive very carefully until I understand and can track test with an expert how it feels under load & in particular road conditions wet & dry, cheers from Australia.
From my experience with my 2012 GT track pack with brembos. The system is alway on unless you re-tune the car. When I first did my bolt ons I had Central Texas Performance tune it. They did three tunes. Strip (everything off, max hp). Street performance ( everything off daily driver) daily tune (everything on). I drove the car in the street performance tune for years. Could spin the tires and drift turns all day. When I got the car ready to sell. I had him pull the mods and tune it for a friendly daily tune (everything on). I could still turn it off manually. I drove the car for another month, and would just turn everything off. The first time I went around a turn, and tried to slide. It all turned back on, through me into a 10 ft Max lock side to side tank slapped, and almost put me into a wall. I am not a professional driver, but as someone who had slid around the same turns before with no problem. Almost kissed a wall thank to the traction control system coming back on. Could have been driver error, but it was never an issue before. Just my MHO.
I have a 2012 gt premium as well and to turn off advanced traction control you have to hold the break and push the traction control button down for 6 seconds and you'll notice the advanced traction off on the menu screen. That seems to turn everything off as long as you do that. Just pressing the button isn't enough. But I turn off the advanced traction control and the car livens up and I feel no aid wether I'm swinging it or not. Maybe that somthing you never heard about??
@@SeriusChevy in my 2014 gt you can hold the brake and just double tap the traction button twice and advance trac will turn off which is stability and traction fully off
@@Rafaahh yeah on my 2012 I have to hold the brake and hold down traction control button for 6 seconds for the same thing. Turns everything off. I pretty much do it every time I start the car now 😆 👍
I agree fully. My 2018 gt350 is great on track as long as you don’t drift too hard. Then it gets vicious; exactly what you described and very hard to save. It really helps to simply disconnect a plug beside the airbox over the driver wheelwell.
So this thread is a bit old but is the most on point description I have found. I have a 2021 Mach 1 and even though you can use the switches to turn off traction control and advance track it still hangs around. I installed new wheels and tires for autocross to be better compared with the GT350. Went from 255X40X19 front 275X40X19 rear to 305X30X19 front and 315X30X19 rear. As stated all seemed fine till I really started to push the car to the limit of the new tires. Immediately following a hard left hand turn the car went completely crazy. Like being on ice. If I barely touched the throttle for the rest of the run the car would start spinning. Like the front brakes were on but the rears were fully off. Got back shut off car everything was fine the next run. Last run of the day pushing hard I take the last cone before the exit, hit the gas and the car just unleashes a crazy uncontrollable spin. Almost hit the guard barrier. Now after some research I have found there is a jumper located by the cold air intake. If you unplug this jumper you will disable all the control features except ABS will still work. When you do this you get an extra icon on the dash showing both systems off. I have hit the ABS hard in this car and was impressed how smooth the ABS control was. Well it wasn't all the ABS. The advance track system was also engaged. With the jumper disconnected the ABS feels like any other ABS. It stutters and pulses as it stops the car. Will be trying out the jumper setting at an autocross this weekend. I don't mind having some oversteer but what was happening was neither induced by me nore was it controlled by me. It is not a problem between the seat and the wheel it a problem with a stability system that can not handle change. After this happened I got all the same, well new tires are slicker, you probably just aren't used to the car, etc, etc.
Makes so much sense! My last slide half way through whipping back around(second fishtail) it felt like I lost all power smd just needed to stomp on the brake ,which at that point you've lost it. It happens so fast that it's even hard to comprehend after the fact. Very good info, thank you! Also 110% agreed, that TC off or in Sport mode that traction control cuts power and applies breaking, very very sketchy when you are trying to put power down.
Okay, this explains a LOT of what I called “weirdness.” I got to the point that I thought my Mustang was literally trying to kill me, so I slapped a small red Decepticon sticker just in front of the rear wheel wells because the car’s evil. Knowing this is going to help immensely.
Totally agree with you! I have a 2007 GT, love it, TCS is not my friend though, it makes the car very unpredictable when it's about to slide (I'm from Canada, I'm used to drifting through corners, and I've owned some very good handling cars). It feels like TCS locks the wrong wheels up so you can't countersteer properly... I actually don't mind the live rear axle at all, as long as TCS is off. The LRA can tend to cause one of the wheels to unexpectedly lose traction during bumps in turns, but it's not that hard to recover from if you know what you are doing (it's actually kind of fun)... but if TCS is on, it tries to do it for you and it counteracts your counteractions (if that makes sense). I guess it works on wet/snowy pavement (since everything is sliding anyways) though. On another note: Road rage in a 300+ hp rwd sports car that almost anyone can afford is not a very good thing... So the lesson here? Don't rage... ever (I'm a hypocrite... but I'm trying!), and don't forget to hit the TCS button when you get in your older pony.
I have a heavily modified 2013 mustang with only 10k on it. Wow, I have to agree with everything you have said. I have been telling this to my friends since I bought the car. I feel that brake pinch. It's a pain in the butt system I feel is dangerous, at least in my car. I does suck having to remember to turn it all off as soon as I start the car. I wish it could be programmed to lock-out all the time.
Just recently found your channel. The Firebird on the Nürburgring videos are what hooked me. (2000 TA convertible owner, here) I'm loving both the driving videos and your commentary videos. I like how your instructor pilot training let's you so clearly break down and explain what is actually going on. Good stuff.
Ill say it again, get the boss 302 "S" ABS Module; From the race program, not the boss 302 regular street car abs. You don't wanna pull the fuse because you lose ABS ( however, I think someone might of found a way to pull a fuse & retain abs ) I'm probably going to get this abs module for this season because I'm scared of the system killing me ( spoke with someone in a racing group who told me about a horrific experience he had ) Let me share my experience with this problem as I chased this issue for a long time... (incoming Novel) I began modifying my car with the basics (LCA, relocation brackets, basic lowering springs & some cruddy Koni yellows) Once I moved to a sticker tire & wider footprint (MPSS 285/35/19 on all corners vs the stock 255/40/19 PZero ) I began noticing crazy braking issues on mountain road & sweeping hwy ramps. It happened mostly when coasting at a medium - high speed on sweeping corners ( around 50 mph ) This happened also before on some mountain hwy roads going ~100 mph it would jam on front brakes very briefly a couple times like a pulsation and it felt like a deflection was happening in the front suspension cause it would snap back like a bushing deflection... and didn't matter which mode I was in. ( Although In Sport mode it felt more prominent , possibly because of the steering feel "Sport" you could feel the front wheels apply brakes more ) This issue got so annoying because I didn't think for a second it could be the traction control doing this as the driving was very smooth and in control on these roads & situations. I began to think the issue was with the tires possibly having a defect ( google MPSS death wobble ) Or perhaps the front LCA hydrobushings deflection under load with the sticker tires & stiffer suspension. I swapped these out for Poly and it still did it. I then researched more into this issue and it was happening so often I began to notice the ESC light would illuminate very briefly when it happened. I then learnt about the "Full off" 5 second hold down mode at a complete stop . Since using this mode I have yet to feel the car apply brakes in sweeping corners. At autoX when getting a little hairy in "full off" mode I have spun before and had the car go into "service advance trac" mode. The 100% fix as confirmed from the track mustang groups is to just swap the ABS module to the motorsports one Ford developed for the Boss 302S race car. Its meant to be used with slicks and race brake pads and adjusts the brake bias as well IIRC. And best of all, you keep ABS braking which is a benefit imo. You should definitely buy this for the boss and ur GT if its modded with stiffer suspension and tires and driven aggressively. You can keep the stock ABS and swap it back in quickly for street if you want traction control for roadtrips, etc. The only downside to this module I can think of is the Christmas lights you'll get on dash. Thanks for the videos and have fun out there!
Thanks for sharing your experience with it! I should have included the boss 302S module in the video. I too initially thought it was somehow the jelly filled marshmallows that Ford uses as bushings, but I replaced all the rear control arms first, and even though the rear axle location felt amazing it only made the problem worse.
I haven’t driven many new Mustangs, but I have driven several examples. The main thing that struck me was the lack of throttle control at high rpm. You can’t bring the engine rpm down from anything above 5500 rpm. It just responds super slow.
I've also heard that you can pull just pin #5 off the ABS connector. It shuts off Advance Track and leaves ABS intact. There is a thread regarding this on SVTperformance
@Deus Lo Vult Um, you cant practice your way past physics, moron, thats why even very experienced drivers in any sport still wreck their cars. You a shortbus weetard
Liked, subscribed, and commented. I hate and do not trust all the electronic stability stuff. I was taught how to drive a car and traction control systems don't make cars safer for folks who know how to drive. Also, loved the footage of you driving on the track... you're a heckuva driver!
Very well done! I’m sure these systems have saved lives but I absolutely despise these stability systems and think they have accidents and loss of control. I confess my ignorance of these systems, thanks for helping to explain how these work.
Hi Russ, I am not sure you even maintain this channel any longer. I do agree with you about TCS/AdvanceTrac. OMG...it is awful in some ways. I have Two Mustangs (2006 GT 2014 GT with Track Package). In the 2006 the TCS makes the car next to useless for spirited driving; often just kills power to a bog and I hate it. The 2014 is better in a way because I can turn it "off" completely, but I have to do it as follows: when the car stop and the brake pedal engaged, push the TCS button one to get the TCS off light, then push the button again for about 8 seconds until I get the warning the the AdvanceTrac is off. As you say, the car will only let you get so far out on the edge before it will violently engage. Ford should allow advanced drivers the option to full turn it off, but their objective to reduce liability against FMC. So...how can they do that?
tpolo08 so I was fiddling with the ECU system and lost advanced trac off and all the traction control settings now when I press the button nothing pops up anymore. Is there a way to get that back in 15 gt????? Help plz
This dead on accurate. My 2023 does this exact thing. Took it to a skid pad where my buddies take their drift cars to test. Turned off all the controls, put it in track mode and S on the shifter. Every time that I got the wheel spin up where I needed it after a flick, the car would fight me incredibly to get back straight, even at full throttle. It got even worse when it started raining and the pad got greasy. I could feel the electric steering trying to pull the wheel out of my hands to get the car back straight. I did some research and yes, you have to physically disconnect these stability systems at the fuses and sensors in order to be able to drive the car beyond just going fast in a straight line. The combination of this, and the fact that most people don't understand what a powerful monster that they have, is why these cars crash when people are showing off. If you look closely at those videos, the snap oversteer is often random and abrupt in the newer models.
Thks for vid it was really helpful !!! I was going pretty fast in straight line then as I was applying pressure to the brakes and lighting moving to my right I could feel my car pulling me harder to the right like I had no control of it !! Then I'm like wait a minute this a 18 roush mustang brake problem all ready !!!!!! Definitely looking for that fuse!!!!!!!
Great videos as usual. I followed over from SVTP awhile back. My $.02 on the subject is both brief and possibly off topic, but needing to be addressed. A: The c5 is such a balanced car and I wholeheartedly agree on the simplicity of instant off; with the competition mode requiring any 'tricks' - and it STAYS OFF. I used to run the car only in comp mode and it too has unsettled the car or caused a near accident when it corrects before you are done. Again it's in these mentioned moments of low throttle / slip inputs during a situation where you are making a gentle correction off throttle. I ONLY drive the car with the TCS full off now; even if I'm getting groceries in it. I want 100% control 100% of the time. My indirect/direct gripe with Ford and Advancetrac has nothing to do with a Mustang; but my DD, a 2011 Ford Escape with the v6 AWD configuration. From what I can find, ford started subletting the undefeatable systems in the cars around 2011. I say the cars, as it affected the entire line. My past mustang and escape were one touch full off. There are multiple complaints on many forums where you cannot fully defeat advance trac and RSC which is roll stability control / tq vectoring via abs. This is a BEAR of an issue for me in the winter. The escape will only disable TCS for wheelspin when the wheels are dead straight. If the car begins to slide, you HAVE to correct it with non throttle inputs. There is absolutely no way to induce over steer and get the vehicle to rotate as it completely shuts down the power. So if you had too mic momentum; tough luck...you're going into a ditch etc. It's dangerous and causes me near accidents with both winters I have owned it now. Unfortunately the escape community is not too privy on forcing slides; so you won't find many like myself out there searching. I found it cannot be defeated through a reflash - again like the rest of the vehicle line. I have seen people pulling wheelspeed sensors on FoST and FiST forums with some defeating ABS (if front is pulled) and affecting bias to rears being pulled and retain in the braking but skewing bias in an opposite direction. If ANYONE knows a defeat on the Escape via module or other I'd be more than interested. So far from mustangs to hatches to f150s, the only work arounds are unsafe and hack like. I have gone so far to think of trying the wheelspeed sensor trick (as it relies on steering angle too with slip...donuts are a 2mph unpowered crawl ) and wiring a relay with a button that will break connection so that I can drive in the snow/ice with confidence. The systems are great in ideal conditions and you can feel them forcing the cars to turn and rotate, but it's highly unnatural and forces you to change your habits and lines to comply with what the system likes. Which is argued on the track that ESC forces you to drive improperly even if faster because you end up using it as a crutch and taking lines that force the car to engage the system, giving more grip than what was there in the first place.
The traction control is the problem.. Also when you turn it off it doesn't go completely off unless you hold the brake and the button for 7 seconds, Then it is completely off. Or you have to go into track mode and turn it off.. But he is absolutely right about it coming back on and having a mind of it's own..
I took my friends 15 GT around a 90 degree corner from a dead stop, all systems off. Started spinning the tires about half way through the turn, easy controllable skid, at approximately a 50-60 degree angle, the second I let off in attempt to correct the car, it violently snaps the ass end around and I go into a 270 degree spin and goes backwards off the edge of the road, completely out of the blue from any other vehicle I've ever tried to skid in any fashion, even wholly underpowered cars that could barely spin the tires would never snap back like that
I'm glad you explained it because I test drove a modified 2012 recently and it was super funky when it got loose. But if you take that fuse out you can take these cars to drift events and do pretty fuckin well.
Great Video and I 100% agree with you about the stability control never fully going off, Now you need to show us a video of what fuse we Need to pull???????
I recently bought a 2007 mustang GT, turned off the traction control and wanted to do a slight drift on a 90 degree turn. I have drifted in my SCION before with traction control off and it was controllable, but when I tried the same thing with the mustang it made no sense what happened next. i took off from a stop light with a controllable drift but once i hit second gear and reached the steering stop the car lost control spinning 90 degrees, once i put on the break to stop the car, it then snapped the opposite direction and the car did a total 180 degree spin and i ended up over the curb. I never experience such a crazy out of control spin like that and i wasn't even going over 30 MPH! Luckily there were no other cars near me when it happened. What your explaining in this video is the only explanation for what happened. I am not new at driving rear wheel drive cars and this was unbelievable.
Its not just a ford problem. I have driven several car makes that have what I think is a similar flaw. For me Bmw Mercedes Nissan All have the same issue. One is that you can never really without aa tune turn off or active a track driving mode on the car. The car esp ford and BMW keep the traction or stability or whatever you want to call it off. for me what happens is that the traction control only wants all four tires to spin at the same rate. This is a silent killer.. All of a sudden you get push.. you try to correct it and you are just there for the ride.
Great video, and even more meaningful given the plethora of continued mustang crash videos. I think it's 2 things - everything you describe in this video, as well as inexperience. As you showed in your examples via footage you have taken, you too have experienced systems fighting you. You, however, recovered the car. Systems or no systems, the inexperienced ALWAYS overcorrect, and not having experience with power sliding or drifting, are way, way too slow to do it and undo it when needed. This is typically why you see cars begin to spin, then wildly spin the other way. That, and hitting the brakes mid correction, throwing the weight even harder...
Seems like Ford opened Pandora’s box when it comes to traction control mapping, with different tires, temperature, terrain inclination and wet, dry and snowy conditions the mapping window expands exponentially. Great video.
Here it is in 2022 and I just found this post. I have a Roush Stage 3 2017 GT Premium. This car tried to wreck me on more than one occasion in the first month I owned it. Reducing throttle going around a corner and Advanced Track On nearly put me in a spin. This happened more than just a few times. Thought I was hitting a patch of sand or wet pavement, but no it was always fine. First thing I do now is to hold the switch until the pop-up message says the advanced track is off. Have never seen the traction control swap back to saying it was engaged but if it did re-engage then I probably wouldn't be looking down at the panel. No problems since. Mainly don't let up on the throttle suddenly going around a corner, don't over steer to the point of skidding sideways, and keep the Traction control off. I don't drive it on road courses but would love to try that.
Pull your fuse it’ll save you. It makes the car feel way more trustworthy and connected because everything you tell the steering wheel to do the wheels automatically listen to and the car just feels completely different
Not having driven a Mustang, but after watching yours and one other video on this matter, I am siding with the point of view that older Mustang stability control systems turn themselves back on.
From the perspective of an old fart, who Raced IMSA and SCCA in the 80's through the late 90's... Frankly, my Vehicle controlling ME in any way scares the crap out of me!! If my Car got greasy, and I made it squirrely out of a turn... That was *my bad* I admit it, learn, and move on. BUT - if I'm in that same turn, and I get loose or start pushing... and I go to correct it like normal... You're saying that THE CAR is going to apply a Brake or manipulate the Throttle (I do understand drive-by- wire), and undermine my learned reactions??? 😲 I was also a Ford Service Tech, back in the rotten years of OBD Systems (like EEC-2 and 3!!!). As ignorant and horrible as they were, none of those systems ever tried to take control AWAY from the Driver!! I say NO THANK YOU Sir! I'll keep my SN95s and New Edges... Sure they're slower than the late models by a good margin. BUT when I'm behind the Wheel, *I'm the one in complete control!!* Technology isn't always for the better....
You know I totally agree with you I remember back in 2013 I had just bought a new Chevy avalanche and for the first big Snow of the year we had gone to a motel with the kids for one of their birthdays and so for some reason I felt like doing some donuts and so I tried to disengage the traction control and no matter what I did I couldn’t seem to make The truck stop taking control of the breaking, throttle and I believe the steering it was puzzling that I couldn’t make my truck do donuts in the snow even though I thought I had disengaged the traction control
It doesnt apply very well to the street cars that might lose it suddenly. That is likely more to do with summer tires in cold temps combined with a COMPLETE throttle cut that leaves the driver unable to add throttle to finess over steer. Winding up crossed up on the steering wheel and thunder fucked because your throttle was cut. As for the track, pull the dyno plug if the systems are behaving so poorly on the S550
I crashed a 2015 1LE Camaro because of exactly the same situation with stability control aggressively correcting a controllable slide. The 1LE model has significantly wider tires and stock Brembo brakes. I don’t know how to prove it, but I’m betting it has the same stability control software algorithms as a standard Camaro with less tread width and less powerful brakes.
Throw in some of the worst factory steering angle and 5 or 10 gallons of fuel sloshing back and forth and you have a surefire recipe for the "second whip" spin.
I love the s550 platform such a beautiful car. But I experienced this BS of traction control coming back on and taking over. While with those who are inexperienced and truly in a loss of control moment this is a good thing but for us that know how to control a car and the car turns ecu TC turns back on the car takes over and spins us around because it "thinks" we want to go that direction while we "thought" it was turned off is just BS
I own a mustang ecoboost 2017 stage 2 and im a big fan of drifting. I live in tunisia and in my country all roads are slippery because they are old and everyone drifts on em and especially when roads get sunkissed its just so easy to make tires spin in here. Anyways my point is i daily drive my mustang and drift almost every time i drive it and i can confirm all you have said but i wanna add sthg! Idk if this is because of the turbo ( ecoboost only ) or not but not only that even when everything is off when you let your foot of the gas everything turns back on and it tries to forcefully correct it causing just like you said lock up slides that cant be catched but also if you try to drift in a roundabout which i always do if you get low ennough on rpm or lift your pedal from the gas completely the car will lock one tire trying to correct it thinking that you want to stop the slide making it do an awful understeer even with your steering wheel locked up you will still go forward and the gas will just get cut even if you push the gas again to correct it the car wont let you go higher to rpms its as if the engine is only working with 10% power which makes it absolutely not correctable and i almost hit a wall that way tbh that sucks but you can do sthg which i have learned over time im still not perfect at it because tbh its super tricky to do but you can try to lift your foot from gas pedal but never completely and be sure to do it slowly coz if you do it fast ennough it will think you dont wanna slide anymore and try to correct it again but if you wanna drift tbh mustangs arent made for that the esc system just limits you way too much and it just sucks .. have a nice day i hope this helps other mustang owners
my lexus is like that but VSC is actually usefull and a life saver...On snow at 70 it goes sideways and car takes over steering, braking, and shuts off gas then puts you back in line and shuts back off right about the time your done shitting your pants...
I got an 2014 GT...3 years now...I drove Fords V8 my entire life (65 now) and one day in my favorite left and right turn the car spin out of control (was 2 in the morning no cars) and I start questioning myself about loosing my habilities as spirited driver but my friend explain to me all the TC and ATC crap...to make long story short...I pull the #34 Fuse no TC,no ATC and no ABS...now I'm happy again...Installed a Supercharger and I can spin the tires,go sideways on the corners and take my favorite turn in complete control of my Mustang just like I drove my old cars...Just me and mis spirited driving...
It was like I was telling my truck I know what I’m doing I’m in a large parking lot with a half a foot of snow and no cars I am doing this on purpose I’ve got it please leave me alone now
I was looking at adding LPG to one here in the UK.... but I think I'll stick with my 2002STI..... It's all analogue and the AP brakes simply overload the ABS and is stops/grips like crazy. P.S. It's very hard to drift though.....
great video and make a lot of sense will try to find the forum disucssions to follow up on this topic more and will give a good read all the comments here I have my first mustang (2016 GT PP1) sitting in my garage and waiting for registration plates and eager to start learning the car slowly
Stability control almost killed me this weekend at a car meet. Was on when I accelerated to 40 mph some wheel spin, it cut off my accelarator I ended up going sideways under a box truck. I have driven corvettes and challengers many cars aggresively. Never had the car FAIL ME! I crashed into the box truck so fast I still cant figure out wtf happened I was going 40 mph
So I am a new 2012 GT 5.0 6 spd auto owner. Bone stock including everything from air filter to mufflers. I'm not a drifter or racer. Not intentionally into rolling burnouts to lay a patch. Basically, gas and brake are never simultaneously pressed. I'm not really into big speed, seriously. I'm sure some of you will flame me as not a true Mustang driver. Meh. However, I do occasionally engage in rapid acceleration from a stop or from a low speed which is the entire reason why I bought a V8. Frankly, I'm now concerned about heavy throttle acceleration, which can cause some wheel spin depending upon conditions. Also, some minor shimmy to one side or the other could happen as well which naturally results in some minor counter steering to keep things straight. After seeing this video am I to understand that only a professionally trained driver on a closed course should be pressing the throttle more than 50%? Or... is this video saying that only aggressive cornering with potential for huge shimmy to one side and consequently huge counter steering is the recipe for unpredictable computer control?
And this is why challengers and chargers along with corvettes all handle and slide better. Lol. They inspire confidence, while a mustang tries to kill you. I say this having driven them all and owning two.
Mustangs crash because of the driver...I see so many people say that mustangs crash because they suck like they are a living organism or something! Don't buy a powerful car if you cant drive it!
Yeah but they're saying that stability control does more harm then good sometimes even resulting in a crash because the stability control decides to kick back on while sliding mid turn which Is very dangerous and really shouldn't be happening ever. But hey it's always fixable
@@SeriusChevy I just get tired of seeing youtube videos titled mustangs wreck and 999 times out of thousand it isn't the cars fault its the driver but people act like the car drives itself and is such a POS it cant keep itself on the road...lol. Bugs me bad...
My 2006 GT was (I think) the last without stability control. I have TCS and that's it. I turn it off so much the button is worn shiny. ABS still works but if the rears spin, it lets them spin.
Isn't the stability control on a separate circuit with its own relay, or is it integrated with ABS? In any case, surely a simple fuse box on/off switch can keep it all off for track use.
It's Because of all the half assed Tech they put in all new cars.. If you are like me and you are used to driving cars from the 70's 80's and 90's where we were totally in control of the car vs now where the car is doing stuff on it's own it's going to feel weird.. It's taken me months to feel this car out and get used to it.. I don't recommend taking traction control off without the stability control being off too.. I want to be the only one breaking the car, So please show me which fuse to pull for the stability control??????
I totally agree with you Russ. And I am not one of those people that dons a tin foil hat every time he gets near the microwave, I genuinely think these systems are better left on in MOST circumstances. However, I have firsthand experience similar to your spin in the Mustang when you neglected to fully disable the system. This was about 2008 or so, and I was at an Audi event on an autocross that had been setup to compare the all new A4, 3-Series, C-Class, and Lexus IS. Now, surprisingly, the Mercedes was my second favorite, as it had the most direct, but clean feeling steering to me. Unsurprisingly, the A4 was #1--as they were comparing AWD cars only, and for the Audi, that was the top spec, but the others, being on RWD chassis, only offered AWD with their midrange engines. The BMW must have been in some kind of limp-home mode, though I saw no dash lights, I was able to floor it for most of the track without exceeding 15mph in some sections. Anyway, back to stability control. Near the end of the track, was a slalom that you could carry a bit of speed through if you were quick and direct with the wheel. On my final run in the C-Class, I came in a little hot, but I knew I could catch it with a little bit of countersteer. I corrected the small drift, and the car corrected a half-beat after I did, swinging wide in the opposite direction. I corrected again, and again it did the same thing, causing an overcorrection after traveling straight for a split second. Not only was the system upsetting a fully stock car in a very dangerous way, it was doing so with such a delay, that it was not possible to anticipate its actions. The Mercedes wound up drifting sideways through the cones like it was on bicycle tires until I hit the brakes and put an end to the nonsense. Traction and stability systems were fully on the entire time. Computers are getting faster every day, and eventually this kind of issue will not be a concern, as they will far outpace our reactions, but for now, not all systems are created equal. GM has had some hamfisted ABS/TCS in the past, but their stability setups, especially on performance cars like the Vette, have always been a step ahead of everyone else. That experience in the C-Class was a black eye for Mercedes safety IMO. If it had happened on the road with a real obstacle instead of cones, that could have been catastrophic.
The gen 5 and 6 Camaro is the same way on the modes except to turn everything off you can do it while driving and it takes about 7 seconds I believe never really counted lol and Chevy calls it stabilitrak and double tapping the button turns on “competitive mode” haha but I ride with it all off unless it’s raining
Well this explains a lot. I went from a 90 fox and an 04 GT that I could throw around all day no problems. I stepped into a 14 5.0 and couldnt drive it for sh!t. I though my ass had forgotten how to drive. I felt like the car was fighting me the whole time.
I hate traction control, it's the first thing I turn off when I'm gonna go drive my 2012 gt lol. Its more of a hazard then a benefit most the time. Unless maybe your drag racing, but even then you have less control over what the car can do, and I hate that
About your "overdriving on track," you seem to be kind of PIO'ing your way around corners. Slowing your right foot down a bit might even that out, make it one smooth event instead of a series of oversteer/highside-oversteer/highside-oversteer/highsides.
You educated me about the whole traction control vs stability control thing. Perhaps for the average (non proffessional) driver the stability control is a good thing?
I was doing a burn out, both wheels spinning car going relatively straight, went to lift off and the car turned a sharp left. Ps my car isn’t a mustang, I think you may be right.
I was writing a response to the tire video when I received notification of your new video. I got sidetracked but ironically enough I was responding with exactly the topic you cover in this video. Aviators think alike. So, to answer your question I do not think you can completely disable advance track. However! It has a threshold that undoubtedly turns everything back on. I myself have never felt the intrusiveness on the GT350 in track mode. On my previous mustangs, 12 GT and 15 GT, most certainly I have felt advance track. I assume this is because the GT350 has more headroom due to its inherit balance?? I asked Randy Pobst shortly after I bought my GT350 about advance track. He said he himself has never felt it on the GT350. So during our discussion I realized that it has to do a lot with the parameters programmed in the computers. I think it is not only steering lockout but a variety of other parameters to include the rate at which the inputs occur. So, say I hit the same limits you have encountered but do so at a slower rate, no intrusion. I, unlike you, am smoother with my inputs and do not over drive the car. It may hurt my lap times but it is just my style. However! I am consistent and constantly improving. So I think if you find the limits of the programing threshold the nannies come on. Can they cause a wreck or loss of control hell YES! Especially if you have modified the suspension/tires/wheels, etc. I will not exceed the specs of the R with my wheel and tire combo for the track. I have a wheel I want but it is uber pricey (GA1R). As for tires and for the same reason I just mentioned, will be keeping close to the R spec as to not confuse the car when it decides to intrude. Once my skill improves and I gain much more confidence in the car and my self and can push the cars limits without intrusion I while experiment with a more aggressive tire.
Holy shit! you got to talk to Randy Pobst about the GT350R? I'd give anything for a chance to do that. Damn, you made me realize I didn't touch on how rates of yaw and rate of input play a huge role in everything. If traction control was ever designed to a person's driving style, it's Randy's driving style for sure. What do you fly? Also, sweet exhaust videos too!
Russell G.S. no longer flying but i am still in the industry, CH-47D/F. when did you go through flt school? instructor course? i was instructing at Rucker knox field 06-09.
Really iNtErEsTiNg take on "stability control" (in general). Coming from a RWD, air-cooled background, you can guess I am clueless about these new fangled electronic controls (GR8T lesson BTW). But being a devote gear head and (computer guy).. I found it very fascinating. One of the best descriptions + examples I've heard :) Now if you could just explain why you guys like to put water in your engines, the world would make more sense. Thanks for the video. Cheers!
I think we need to instrument the brake pressure and figure out what the system is really doing. I think this "undocumented feature" has killed people. If everything is off according to the factory, but you can show brake activation without pedal depression, I think Ford may have a real liability problem on its hands. High slip angle and high steering angle does not mean a loss of control if this is what the driver intended. If while at high slip and high steering angle the computer does something that suddenly eliminates the slip, they have made the vehicle do something thr driver did not intend, the very definition of loss of control.
Your videos are awesome. I enjoy when someone takes it to the next level of detail and not "bolt this on" because "my cousin did and he loved it". Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the "how to videos" but I always try to couple it with "why" and "what is the net result"....I have to ask,. I have a 2008 GT so should I expect the same or is this on later 5.0 models ? I know I have a TCS button but have seen nothing on stability control...I can tell you this...If I wind her up, pop 2nd gear she breaks loose and I have had the car "correct" for me...felt like it backed me off momentarily...thoughts?
.fifth gear is just not interested. Second being live real axle and an overstepping stability control system. In a controlled slip the tcs grabbed almost put me off the road. Its happened enough that I dont trust the car. I was really hoping the mustang would help me forget the c6 corvette that paid the price when it vwas totaled in an accident with livestock in the road..but not so much. Should have waited for another vette, not happy having my decisions vetoed in key moments. It’s supposed to be a sports car..i bought it to drive it,
Corvettes can get away from you too. I had a C5 that would easily throw the rear end out if the traction control was off. The difference is more KIDS and inexperienced ADULTS have access to Mustangs. A person at McDonalds can get a Mustang GT that's never had a rear wheel drive car with 400HP. That means there are lots more Mustangs driven by kids and inexperienced adults= more Mustang accidents.
I drove ancient cars with none of those training wheels. More fun to drive with skill. Sure it's exciting, but the organic feel of no p/s, feedback from seat and steering wheel i believe hone your skills. Watch Netflix: the 24 Le mans Ford and Ferrari driver's hitting 150 + manage to control for the most part. To be honest I never drove a mid engine 427, how different is it? I'll never know so i don't claim to know what's best
Old man here. Drove a lot of hot cars back in the day. I am no expert but from what I am seeing regarding Mustangs crashing while leaving car shows, it is clear to me that there has to be some sort of "system" that is fighting the driver. It isn't that they crash but the way that they crash. It just looks strange to me. I have seen many, many hot rods leave events in spectacular ways and many drivers lose control. But back before all of these systems designed to "assist" the driver, cars rarely crashed this way. Mostly, if you lost traction the car would spin around like a top but it wouldn't keep trying to go forward as these cars are doing. Back then getting sideways wasn't that big a deal. So I agree with you. We never had these issues when the brakes were just either all grabbing or not. Clearly, having a computer control the brakes individually, is the source of the problem that has the driver and computer in conflict.
Thankyou for explaining how the dynamics within the later model Mustang GT work as I'm about to purchase my first Mustang & being use to driving old school 1970 model V8s, was concerned as to why so many Mustang drivers were losing control of their vehicles. I endeavor to drive very carefully until I understand and can track test with an expert how it feels under load & in particular road conditions wet & dry, cheers from Australia.
From my experience with my 2012 GT track pack with brembos. The system is alway on unless you re-tune the car. When I first did my bolt ons I had Central Texas Performance tune it. They did three tunes. Strip (everything off, max hp). Street performance ( everything off daily driver) daily tune (everything on). I drove the car in the street performance tune for years. Could spin the tires and drift turns all day. When I got the car ready to sell. I had him pull the mods and tune it for a friendly daily tune (everything on). I could still turn it off manually. I drove the car for another month, and would just turn everything off. The first time I went around a turn, and tried to slide. It all turned back on, through me into a 10 ft Max lock side to side tank slapped, and almost put me into a wall. I am not a professional driver, but as someone who had slid around the same turns before with no problem. Almost kissed a wall thank to the traction control system coming back on. Could have been driver error, but it was never an issue before. Just my MHO.
I have a 2012 gt premium as well and to turn off advanced traction control you have to hold the break and push the traction control button down for 6 seconds and you'll notice the advanced traction off on the menu screen. That seems to turn everything off as long as you do that. Just pressing the button isn't enough. But I turn off the advanced traction control and the car livens up and I feel no aid wether I'm swinging it or not. Maybe that somthing you never heard about??
That sucks it came back on. I've seen shit like that happen before. It seems like a glitch or somthing that shouldn't be happening ever
can you do the everything off tune with newer mustangs?
@@SeriusChevy in my 2014 gt you can hold the brake and just double tap the traction button twice and advance trac will turn off which is stability and traction fully off
@@Rafaahh yeah on my 2012 I have to hold the brake and hold down traction control button for 6 seconds for the same thing. Turns everything off. I pretty much do it every time I start the car now 😆 👍
I agree fully. My 2018 gt350 is great on track as long as you don’t drift too hard. Then it gets vicious; exactly what you described and very hard to save.
It really helps to simply disconnect a plug beside the airbox over the driver wheelwell.
So this thread is a bit old but is the most on point description I have found. I have a 2021 Mach 1 and even though you can use the switches to turn off traction control and advance track it still hangs around. I installed new wheels and tires for autocross to be better compared with the GT350. Went from 255X40X19 front 275X40X19 rear to 305X30X19 front and 315X30X19 rear. As stated all seemed fine till I really started to push the car to the limit of the new tires. Immediately following a hard left hand turn the car went completely crazy. Like being on ice. If I barely touched the throttle for the rest of the run the car would start spinning. Like the front brakes were on but the rears were fully off. Got back shut off car everything was fine the next run. Last run of the day pushing hard I take the last cone before the exit, hit the gas and the car just unleashes a crazy uncontrollable spin. Almost hit the guard barrier. Now after some research I have found there is a jumper located by the cold air intake. If you unplug this jumper you will disable all the control features except ABS will still work. When you do this you get an extra icon on the dash showing both systems off. I have hit the ABS hard in this car and was impressed how smooth the ABS control was. Well it wasn't all the ABS. The advance track system was also engaged. With the jumper disconnected the ABS feels like any other ABS. It stutters and pulses as it stops the car. Will be trying out the jumper setting at an autocross this weekend. I don't mind having some oversteer but what was happening was neither induced by me nore was it controlled by me. It is not a problem between the seat and the wheel it a problem with a stability system that can not handle change. After this happened I got all the same, well new tires are slicker, you probably just aren't used to the car, etc, etc.
Makes so much sense! My last slide half way through whipping back around(second fishtail) it felt like I lost all power smd just needed to stomp on the brake ,which at that point you've lost it. It happens so fast that it's even hard to comprehend after the fact. Very good info, thank you!
Also 110% agreed, that TC off or in Sport mode that traction control cuts power and applies breaking, very very sketchy when you are trying to put power down.
Okay, this explains a LOT of what I called “weirdness.” I got to the point that I thought my Mustang was literally trying to kill me, so I slapped a small red Decepticon sticker just in front of the rear wheel wells because the car’s evil. Knowing this is going to help immensely.
Totally agree with you!
I have a 2007 GT, love it, TCS is not my friend though, it makes the car very unpredictable when it's about to slide (I'm from Canada, I'm used to drifting through corners, and I've owned some very good handling cars). It feels like TCS locks the wrong wheels up so you can't countersteer properly... I actually don't mind the live rear axle at all, as long as TCS is off. The LRA can tend to cause one of the wheels to unexpectedly lose traction during bumps in turns, but it's not that hard to recover from if you know what you are doing (it's actually kind of fun)... but if TCS is on, it tries to do it for you and it counteracts your counteractions (if that makes sense). I guess it works on wet/snowy pavement (since everything is sliding anyways) though.
On another note: Road rage in a 300+ hp rwd sports car that almost anyone can afford is not a very good thing...
So the lesson here? Don't rage... ever (I'm a hypocrite... but I'm trying!), and don't forget to hit the TCS button when you get in your older pony.
It’s second nature to turn it off right when I crank it up
You might consider balancing your audio volume. Had to turn my stereo up to hear you then the autocross clip blasted my ears.
Justin Ross Thanks for pointing that out. We've tried to get better about that.
welcome to youtube, where no body has a fucking clue on how to compress audio
I have a heavily modified 2013 mustang with only 10k on it. Wow, I have to agree with everything you have said. I have been telling this to my friends since I bought the car. I feel that brake pinch. It's a pain in the butt system I feel is dangerous, at least in my car. I does suck having to remember to turn it all off as soon as I start the car. I wish it could be programmed to lock-out all the time.
Just recently found your channel. The Firebird on the Nürburgring videos are what hooked me. (2000 TA convertible owner, here) I'm loving both the driving videos and your commentary videos. I like how your instructor pilot training let's you so clearly break down and explain what is actually going on. Good stuff.
Ill say it again, get the boss 302 "S" ABS Module; From the race program, not the boss 302 regular street car abs. You don't wanna pull the fuse because you lose ABS ( however, I think someone might of found a way to pull a fuse & retain abs ) I'm probably going to get this abs module for this season because I'm scared of the system killing me ( spoke with someone in a racing group who told me about a horrific experience he had )
Let me share my experience with this problem as I chased this issue for a long time... (incoming Novel)
I began modifying my car with the basics (LCA, relocation brackets, basic lowering springs & some cruddy Koni yellows) Once I moved to a sticker tire & wider footprint (MPSS 285/35/19 on all corners vs the stock 255/40/19 PZero ) I began noticing crazy braking issues on mountain road & sweeping hwy ramps. It happened mostly when coasting at a medium - high speed on sweeping corners ( around 50 mph ) This happened also before on some mountain hwy roads going ~100 mph it would jam on front brakes very briefly a couple times like a pulsation and it felt like a deflection was happening in the front suspension cause it would snap back like a bushing deflection... and didn't matter which mode I was in. ( Although In Sport mode it felt more prominent , possibly because of the steering feel "Sport" you could feel the front wheels apply brakes more ) This issue got so annoying because I didn't think for a second it could be the traction control doing this as the driving was very smooth and in control on these roads & situations. I began to think the issue was with the tires possibly having a defect ( google MPSS death wobble ) Or perhaps the front LCA hydrobushings deflection under load with the sticker tires & stiffer suspension. I swapped these out for Poly and it still did it. I then researched more into this issue and it was happening so often I began to notice the ESC light would illuminate very briefly when it happened. I then learnt about the "Full off" 5 second hold down mode at a complete stop . Since using this mode I have yet to feel the car apply brakes in sweeping corners. At autoX when getting a little hairy in "full off" mode I have spun before and had the car go into "service advance trac" mode. The 100% fix as confirmed from the track mustang groups is to just swap the ABS module to the motorsports one Ford developed for the Boss 302S race car. Its meant to be used with slicks and race brake pads and adjusts the brake bias as well IIRC. And best of all, you keep ABS braking which is a benefit imo. You should definitely buy this for the boss and ur GT if its modded with stiffer suspension and tires and driven aggressively. You can keep the stock ABS and swap it back in quickly for street if you want traction control for roadtrips, etc. The only downside to this module I can think of is the Christmas lights you'll get on dash.
Thanks for the videos and have fun out there!
Thanks for sharing your experience with it! I should have included the boss 302S module in the video.
I too initially thought it was somehow the jelly filled marshmallows that Ford uses as bushings, but I replaced all the rear control arms first, and even though the rear axle location felt amazing it only made the problem worse.
I haven’t driven many new Mustangs, but I have driven several examples.
The main thing that struck me was the lack of throttle control at high rpm. You can’t bring the engine rpm down from anything above 5500 rpm. It just responds super slow.
Yeah stock tune is utter crap. Not sure if you mean in an auto or manual but for autos once you get a tune its super responsive.
I've also heard that you can pull just pin #5 off the ABS connector. It shuts off Advance Track and leaves ABS intact. There is a thread regarding this on SVTperformance
can you link me to this? I can't find it and would like to try it on a 2013 f-150
I've said over and over to people that stability control only makes thing worse for a good driver. I'll put the car where I want it to go.
Mutt Head slow and smooth is fast. if you can accomplish that nannies will not kick in.
Mutt Head you’re such a mutt head
No, you won't put the car where you want it to go. Physics will decide where it goes, and you have little say in that.
@@TasteMyStinkholeAndLikeIt um ever heard of practice? You think s15's or ae84's drift themselves 😂 you special
@Deus Lo Vult
Um, you cant practice your way past physics, moron, thats why even very experienced drivers in any sport still wreck their cars. You a shortbus weetard
I think you guys are crazy for driving your cars like this and I'm happy you are living a dream! May God bless you both, ride on
Liked, subscribed, and commented. I hate and do not trust all the electronic stability stuff. I was taught how to drive a car and traction control systems don't make cars safer for folks who know how to drive. Also, loved the footage of you driving on the track... you're a heckuva driver!
Thanks!
Adam likely needed an M-2353-CA control module. It's what they use on the 302R and the FRS at the school, on slicks I had no issue.
I can totally understand where having the nanny's chime in, when you believe they are off, would make you have a bad day lol.
Very well done! I’m sure these systems have saved lives but I absolutely despise these stability systems and think they have accidents and loss of control. I confess my ignorance of these systems, thanks for helping to explain how these work.
Yes the audio was very un even and loud, but this was a very informative video. Very helpful. You really know your stuff thanks.
Hi Russ, I am not sure you even maintain this channel any longer. I do agree with you about TCS/AdvanceTrac. OMG...it is awful in some ways. I have Two Mustangs (2006 GT 2014 GT with Track Package). In the 2006 the TCS makes the car next to useless for spirited driving; often just kills power to a bog and I hate it. The 2014 is better in a way because I can turn it "off" completely, but I have to do it as follows: when the car stop and the brake pedal engaged, push the TCS button one to get the TCS off light, then push the button again for about 8 seconds until I get the warning the the AdvanceTrac is off. As you say, the car will only let you get so far out on the edge before it will violently engage. Ford should allow advanced drivers the option to full turn it off, but their objective to reduce liability against FMC. So...how can they do that?
Your right, I’m a ford programmer👍
tpolo08 so I was fiddling with the ECU system and lost advanced trac off and all the traction control settings now when I press the button nothing pops up anymore. Is there a way to get that back in 15 gt????? Help plz
tpolo08 scare you
Will changing rear tire height affect stability control?
Ford programmer who can't spell? Makes sense.
This dead on accurate. My 2023 does this exact thing. Took it to a skid pad where my buddies take their drift cars to test. Turned off all the controls, put it in track mode and S on the shifter. Every time that I got the wheel spin up where I needed it after a flick, the car would fight me incredibly to get back straight, even at full throttle. It got even worse when it started raining and the pad got greasy. I could feel the electric steering trying to pull the wheel out of my hands to get the car back straight.
I did some research and yes, you have to physically disconnect these stability systems at the fuses and sensors in order to be able to drive the car beyond just going fast in a straight line.
The combination of this, and the fact that most people don't understand what a powerful monster that they have, is why these cars crash when people are showing off. If you look closely at those videos, the snap oversteer is often random and abrupt in the newer models.
Thks for vid it was really helpful !!! I was going pretty fast in straight line then as I was applying pressure to the brakes and lighting moving to my right I could feel my car pulling me harder to the right like I had no control of it !! Then I'm like wait a minute this a 18 roush mustang brake problem all ready !!!!!!
Definitely looking for that fuse!!!!!!!
Great videos as usual. I followed over from SVTP awhile back.
My $.02 on the subject is both brief and possibly off topic, but needing to be addressed.
A: The c5 is such a balanced car and I wholeheartedly agree on the simplicity of instant off; with the competition mode requiring any 'tricks' - and it STAYS OFF. I used to run the car only in comp mode and it too has unsettled the car or caused a near accident when it corrects before you are done. Again it's in these mentioned moments of low throttle / slip inputs during a situation where you are making a gentle correction off throttle. I ONLY drive the car with the TCS full off now; even if I'm getting groceries in it. I want 100% control 100% of the time.
My indirect/direct gripe with Ford and Advancetrac has nothing to do with a Mustang; but my DD, a 2011 Ford Escape with the v6 AWD configuration.
From what I can find, ford started subletting the undefeatable systems in the cars around 2011. I say the cars, as it affected the entire line. My past mustang and escape were one touch full off. There are multiple complaints on many forums where you cannot fully defeat advance trac and RSC which is roll stability control / tq vectoring via abs.
This is a BEAR of an issue for me in the winter. The escape will only disable TCS for wheelspin when the wheels are dead straight. If the car begins to slide, you HAVE to correct it with non throttle inputs. There is absolutely no way to induce over steer and get the vehicle to rotate as it completely shuts down the power. So if you had too mic momentum; tough luck...you're going into a ditch etc. It's dangerous and causes me near accidents with both winters I have owned it now.
Unfortunately the escape community is not too privy on forcing slides; so you won't find many like myself out there searching. I found it cannot be defeated through a reflash - again like the rest of the vehicle line. I have seen people pulling wheelspeed sensors on FoST and FiST forums with some defeating ABS (if front is pulled) and affecting bias to rears being pulled and retain in the braking but skewing bias in an opposite direction.
If ANYONE knows a defeat on the Escape via module or other I'd be more than interested. So far from mustangs to hatches to f150s, the only work arounds are unsafe and hack like. I have gone so far to think of trying the wheelspeed sensor trick (as it relies on steering angle too with slip...donuts are a 2mph unpowered crawl ) and wiring a relay with a button that will break connection so that I can drive in the snow/ice with confidence.
The systems are great in ideal conditions and you can feel them forcing the cars to turn and rotate, but it's highly unnatural and forces you to change your habits and lines to comply with what the system likes. Which is argued on the track that ESC forces you to drive improperly even if faster because you end up using it as a crutch and taking lines that force the car to engage the system, giving more grip than what was there in the first place.
The traction control is the problem.. Also when you turn it off it doesn't go completely off unless you hold the brake and the button for 7 seconds, Then it is completely off. Or you have to go into track mode and turn it off.. But he is absolutely right about it coming back on and having a mind of it's own..
I took my friends 15 GT around a 90 degree corner from a dead stop, all systems off. Started spinning the tires about half way through the turn, easy controllable skid, at approximately a 50-60 degree angle, the second I let off in attempt to correct the car, it violently snaps the ass end around and I go into a 270 degree spin and goes backwards off the edge of the road, completely out of the blue from any other vehicle I've ever tried to skid in any fashion, even wholly underpowered cars that could barely spin the tires would never snap back like that
I absolutely agree and the “Full defeat-able traction control statement clinches the argument.
I'm glad you explained it because I test drove a modified 2012 recently and it was super funky when it got loose. But if you take that fuse out you can take these cars to drift events and do pretty fuckin well.
Great Video and I 100% agree with you about the stability control never fully going off, Now you need to show us a video of what fuse we Need to pull???????
Your right watch the mustang fail videos they wipe out and crash you cant control them when the rear is sliding and you get off the throttle.
I recently bought a 2007 mustang GT, turned off the traction control and wanted to do a slight drift on a 90 degree turn. I have drifted in my SCION before with traction control off and it was controllable, but when I tried the same thing with the mustang it made no sense what happened next. i took off from a stop light with a controllable drift but once i hit second gear and reached the steering stop the car lost control spinning 90 degrees, once i put on the break to stop the car, it then snapped the opposite direction and the car did a total 180 degree spin and i ended up over the curb. I never experience such a crazy out of control spin like that and i wasn't even going over 30 MPH! Luckily there were no other cars near me when it happened. What your explaining in this video is the only explanation for what happened. I am not new at driving rear wheel drive cars and this was unbelievable.
Its not just a ford problem. I have driven several car makes that have what I think is a similar flaw. For me Bmw Mercedes Nissan All have the same issue. One is that you can never really without aa tune turn off or active a track driving mode on the car. The car esp ford and BMW keep the traction or stability or whatever you want to call it off. for me what happens is that the traction control only wants all four tires to spin at the same rate. This is a silent killer.. All of a sudden you get push.. you try to correct it and you are just there for the ride.
Great video, and even more meaningful given the plethora of continued mustang crash videos.
I think it's 2 things - everything you describe in this video, as well as inexperience. As you showed in your examples via footage you have taken, you too have experienced systems fighting you. You, however, recovered the car. Systems or no systems, the inexperienced ALWAYS overcorrect, and not having experience with power sliding or drifting, are way, way too slow to do it and undo it when needed. This is typically why you see cars begin to spin, then wildly spin the other way. That, and hitting the brakes mid correction, throwing the weight even harder...
Seems like Ford opened Pandora’s box when it comes to traction control mapping, with different tires, temperature, terrain inclination and wet, dry and snowy conditions the mapping window expands exponentially. Great video.
Here it is in 2022 and I just found this post. I have a Roush Stage 3 2017 GT Premium. This car tried to wreck me on more than one occasion in the first month I owned it. Reducing throttle going around a corner and Advanced Track On nearly put me in a spin. This happened more than just a few times. Thought I was hitting a patch of sand or wet pavement, but no it was always fine. First thing I do now is to hold the switch until the pop-up message says the advanced track is off. Have never seen the traction control swap back to saying it was engaged but if it did re-engage then I probably wouldn't be looking down at the panel. No problems since. Mainly don't let up on the throttle suddenly going around a corner, don't over steer to the point of skidding sideways, and keep the Traction control off. I don't drive it on road courses but would love to try that.
Pull your fuse it’ll save you. It makes the car feel way more trustworthy and connected because everything you tell the steering wheel to do the wheels automatically listen to and the car just feels completely different
Not having driven a Mustang, but after watching yours and one other video on this matter, I am siding with the point of view that older Mustang stability control systems turn themselves back on.
You can always use the software forscan and data log brake pressure and actually see when and how much it engages the brakes!
From the perspective of an old fart, who Raced IMSA and SCCA in the 80's through the late 90's...
Frankly, my Vehicle controlling ME in any way scares the crap out of me!!
If my Car got greasy, and I made it squirrely out of a turn... That was *my bad* I admit it, learn, and move on.
BUT - if I'm in that same turn, and I get loose or start pushing... and I go to correct it like normal...
You're saying that THE CAR is going to apply a Brake or manipulate the Throttle (I do understand drive-by- wire), and undermine my learned reactions??? 😲
I was also a Ford Service Tech, back in the rotten years of OBD Systems (like EEC-2 and 3!!!).
As ignorant and horrible as they were, none of those systems ever tried to take control AWAY from the Driver!!
I say NO THANK YOU Sir!
I'll keep my SN95s and New Edges...
Sure they're slower than the late models by a good margin.
BUT when I'm behind the Wheel, *I'm the one in complete control!!*
Technology isn't always for the better....
You know I totally agree with you I remember back in 2013 I had just bought a new Chevy avalanche and for the first big Snow of the year we had gone to a motel with the kids for one of their birthdays and so for some reason I felt like doing some donuts and so I tried to disengage the traction control and no matter what I did I couldn’t seem to make The truck stop taking control of the breaking, throttle and I believe the steering it was puzzling that I couldn’t make my truck do donuts in the snow even though I thought I had disengaged the traction control
Wow, I appreciate how bmw has a button right front and center that turns all that stuff off and it stays off.
It doesnt apply very well to the street cars that might lose it suddenly. That is likely more to do with summer tires in cold temps combined with a COMPLETE throttle cut that leaves the driver unable to add throttle to finess over steer. Winding up crossed up on the steering wheel and thunder fucked because your throttle was cut. As for the track, pull the dyno plug if the systems are behaving so poorly on the S550
I crashed a 2015 1LE Camaro because of exactly the same situation with stability control aggressively correcting a controllable slide. The 1LE model has significantly wider tires and stock Brembo brakes. I don’t know how to prove it, but I’m betting it has the same stability control software algorithms as a standard Camaro with less tread width and less powerful brakes.
Throw in some of the worst factory steering angle and 5 or 10 gallons of fuel sloshing back and forth and you have a surefire recipe for the "second whip" spin.
I love the s550 platform such a beautiful car. But I experienced this BS of traction control coming back on and taking over. While with those who are inexperienced and truly in a loss of control moment this is a good thing but for us that know how to control a car and the car turns ecu TC turns back on the car takes over and spins us around because it "thinks" we want to go that direction while we "thought" it was turned off is just BS
Totally agree
They crash because they send it while exiting a turn. You have to be straight before you send it.
SIMPLE = Short Wheelbase - Too Much Power and rear end breaks loose - in the ditch or have an accident !
I own a mustang ecoboost 2017 stage 2 and im a big fan of drifting. I live in tunisia and in my country all roads are slippery because they are old and everyone drifts on em and especially when roads get sunkissed its just so easy to make tires spin in here. Anyways my point is i daily drive my mustang and drift almost every time i drive it and i can confirm all you have said but i wanna add sthg! Idk if this is because of the turbo ( ecoboost only ) or not but not only that even when everything is off when you let your foot of the gas everything turns back on and it tries to forcefully correct it causing just like you said lock up slides that cant be catched but also if you try to drift in a roundabout which i always do if you get low ennough on rpm or lift your pedal from the gas completely the car will lock one tire trying to correct it thinking that you want to stop the slide making it do an awful understeer even with your steering wheel locked up you will still go forward and the gas will just get cut even if you push the gas again to correct it the car wont let you go higher to rpms its as if the engine is only working with 10% power which makes it absolutely not correctable and i almost hit a wall that way tbh that sucks but you can do sthg which i have learned over time im still not perfect at it because tbh its super tricky to do but you can try to lift your foot from gas pedal but never completely and be sure to do it slowly coz if you do it fast ennough it will think you dont wanna slide anymore and try to correct it again but if you wanna drift tbh mustangs arent made for that the esc system just limits you way too much and it just sucks .. have a nice day i hope this helps other mustang owners
You need to turn audio up more. I could barely hear you at full volume
my lexus is like that but VSC is actually usefull and a life saver...On snow at 70 it goes sideways and car takes over steering, braking, and shuts off gas then puts you back in line and shuts back off right about the time your done shitting your pants...
I know on the SS550 chassis, it's advised to disconnect a plug that is located on the driver's side next to the intake filter box
This is sooo true ...I did tht with my s281 saleen and crash cuz it gripped one and spun out .. im glad I didn't do much hard ...just minor scratches
I got an 2014 GT...3 years now...I drove Fords V8 my entire life (65 now) and one day in my favorite left and right turn the car spin out of control (was 2 in the morning no cars) and I start questioning myself about loosing my habilities as spirited driver but my friend explain to me all the TC and ATC crap...to make long story short...I pull the #34 Fuse no TC,no ATC and no ABS...now I'm happy again...Installed a Supercharger and I can spin the tires,go sideways on the corners and take my favorite turn in complete control of my Mustang just like I drove my old cars...Just me and mis spirited driving...
It feels like an old school car back when they didn’t have power steering. It’s an absolutely lovely feeling
So I need to take the safari rack back off my GT convertible?
You r correct. You cannot change the stability. Its even says it in the manuel.
It was like I was telling my truck I know what I’m doing I’m in a large parking lot with a half a foot of snow and no cars I am doing this on purpose I’ve got it please leave me alone now
I was looking at adding LPG to one here in the UK.... but I think I'll stick with my 2002STI..... It's all analogue and the AP brakes simply overload the ABS and is stops/grips like crazy. P.S. It's very hard to drift though.....
great video and make a lot of sense
will try to find the forum disucssions to follow up on this topic more and will give a good read all the comments here
I have my first mustang (2016 GT PP1) sitting in my garage and waiting for registration plates and eager to start learning the car slowly
If you haven't found out yet, there's a connector on driver side under the hood you can pull that will prevent the nannies from coming back on.
Stability control almost killed me this weekend at a car meet. Was on when I accelerated to 40 mph some wheel spin, it cut off my accelarator I ended up going sideways under a box truck. I have driven corvettes and challengers many cars aggresively. Never had the car FAIL ME! I crashed into the box truck so fast I still cant figure out wtf happened I was going 40 mph
My c5 with no electronic always corrects straight when I steer and let off
So I am a new 2012 GT 5.0 6 spd auto owner. Bone stock including everything from air filter to mufflers. I'm not a drifter or racer. Not intentionally into rolling burnouts to lay a patch. Basically, gas and brake are never simultaneously pressed. I'm not really into big speed, seriously. I'm sure some of you will flame me as not a true Mustang driver. Meh. However, I do occasionally engage in rapid acceleration from a stop or from a low speed which is the entire reason why I bought a V8. Frankly, I'm now concerned about heavy throttle acceleration, which can cause some wheel spin depending upon conditions. Also, some minor shimmy to one side or the other could happen as well which naturally results in some minor counter steering to keep things straight. After seeing this video am I to understand that only a professionally trained driver on a closed course should be pressing the throttle more than 50%? Or... is this video saying that only aggressive cornering with potential for huge shimmy to one side and consequently huge counter steering is the recipe for unpredictable computer control?
And this is why challengers and chargers along with corvettes all handle and slide better. Lol. They inspire confidence, while a mustang tries to kill you. I say this having driven them all and owning two.
Mustangs crash because of the driver...I see so many people say that mustangs crash because they suck like they are a living organism or something! Don't buy a powerful car if you cant drive it!
Yeah but they're saying that stability control does more harm then good sometimes even resulting in a crash because the stability control decides to kick back on while sliding mid turn which Is very dangerous and really shouldn't be happening ever. But hey it's always fixable
@@SeriusChevy I was just talking in general but I can see that the stability control could causing issues like that.
@@mschmokin8676 don't get me wrong you're very right about people that can't drive for shit, theres plenty of those out there too
@@SeriusChevy I just get tired of seeing youtube videos titled mustangs wreck and 999 times out of thousand it isn't the cars fault its the driver but people act like the car drives itself and is such a POS it cant keep itself on the road...lol. Bugs me bad...
My 2006 GT was (I think) the last without stability control. I have TCS and that's it. I turn it off so much the button is worn shiny. ABS still works but if the rears spin, it lets them spin.
Isn't the stability control on a separate circuit with its own relay, or is it integrated with ABS? In any case, surely a simple fuse box on/off switch can keep it all off for track use.
I'm driving an 03 v6 and it works just fine when i turn traction control off.
It's Because of all the half assed Tech they put in all new cars.. If you are like me and you are used to driving cars from the 70's 80's and 90's where we were totally in control of the car vs now where the car is doing stuff on it's own it's going to feel weird.. It's taken me months to feel this car out and get used to it.. I don't recommend taking traction control off without the stability control being off too.. I want to be the only one breaking the car,
So please show me which fuse to pull for the stability control??????
I totally agree with you Russ. And I am not one of those people that dons a tin foil hat every time he gets near the microwave, I genuinely think these systems are better left on in MOST circumstances. However, I have firsthand experience similar to your spin in the Mustang when you neglected to fully disable the system.
This was about 2008 or so, and I was at an Audi event on an autocross that had been setup to compare the all new A4, 3-Series, C-Class, and Lexus IS. Now, surprisingly, the Mercedes was my second favorite, as it had the most direct, but clean feeling steering to me. Unsurprisingly, the A4 was #1--as they were comparing AWD cars only, and for the Audi, that was the top spec, but the others, being on RWD chassis, only offered AWD with their midrange engines. The BMW must have been in some kind of limp-home mode, though I saw no dash lights, I was able to floor it for most of the track without exceeding 15mph in some sections.
Anyway, back to stability control. Near the end of the track, was a slalom that you could carry a bit of speed through if you were quick and direct with the wheel. On my final run in the C-Class, I came in a little hot, but I knew I could catch it with a little bit of countersteer. I corrected the small drift, and the car corrected a half-beat after I did, swinging wide in the opposite direction. I corrected again, and again it did the same thing, causing an overcorrection after traveling straight for a split second. Not only was the system upsetting a fully stock car in a very dangerous way, it was doing so with such a delay, that it was not possible to anticipate its actions. The Mercedes wound up drifting sideways through the cones like it was on bicycle tires until I hit the brakes and put an end to the nonsense. Traction and stability systems were fully on the entire time.
Computers are getting faster every day, and eventually this kind of issue will not be a concern, as they will far outpace our reactions, but for now, not all systems are created equal. GM has had some hamfisted ABS/TCS in the past, but their stability setups, especially on performance cars like the Vette, have always been a step ahead of everyone else. That experience in the C-Class was a black eye for Mercedes safety IMO. If it had happened on the road with a real obstacle instead of cones, that could have been catastrophic.
Thank you very much for very informative video brilliant and very well explained thank you from Sydney Australia 😊
I’ve got a 2019 GT, and I don’t seem to be able to turn it off. I hate the whole traction control system.
Hold it for 5 sec. It hasn’t kicked back in for me. They might have fixed it for 2015
you flew the UH 60 dash 10? My neighbor was a squadron CO at JBLM. I recall he called it the Mike model. You remind me of him!
The gen 5 and 6 Camaro is the same way on the modes except to turn everything off you can do it while driving and it takes about 7 seconds I believe never really counted lol and Chevy calls it stabilitrak and double tapping the button turns on “competitive mode” haha but I ride with it all off unless it’s raining
Well this explains a lot. I went from a 90 fox and an 04 GT that I could throw around all day no problems. I stepped into a 14 5.0 and couldnt drive it for sh!t. I though my ass had forgotten how to drive. I felt like the car was fighting me the whole time.
I hate traction control, it's the first thing I turn off when I'm gonna go drive my 2012 gt lol. Its more of a hazard then a benefit most the time. Unless maybe your drag racing, but even then you have less control over what the car can do, and I hate that
About your "overdriving on track," you seem to be kind of PIO'ing your way around corners. Slowing your right foot down a bit might even that out, make it one smooth event instead of a series of oversteer/highside-oversteer/highside-oversteer/highsides.
You educated me about the whole traction control vs stability control thing. Perhaps for the average (non proffessional) driver the stability control is a good thing?
I was doing a burn out, both wheels spinning car going relatively straight, went to lift off and the car turned a sharp left. Ps my car isn’t a mustang, I think you may be right.
thanks for this info, it always seemed that roadside supermagnets attracted mustangs
Great video. Your point of view seems spot on.
Very articulate
Mustangs don’t have too much weight in the back, as soon as you lose your grip enough you will spin and spin especially with a v8
I was writing a response to the tire video when I received
notification of your new video. I got sidetracked but ironically enough I was
responding with exactly the topic you cover in this video. Aviators think
alike. So, to answer your question I do not think you can completely disable advance
track. However! It has a threshold that undoubtedly turns everything back on.
I myself have never felt the intrusiveness
on the GT350 in track mode. On my
previous mustangs, 12 GT and 15 GT, most certainly I have felt advance track. I
assume this is because the GT350 has more headroom due to its inherit balance??
I asked Randy Pobst shortly after I bought my GT350 about advance track. He
said he himself has never felt it on the GT350. So during our discussion I
realized that it has to do a lot with the parameters programmed in the
computers. I think it is not only steering lockout but a variety of other parameters
to include the rate at which the inputs occur. So, say I hit the same limits
you have encountered but do so at a slower rate, no intrusion. I, unlike you, am smoother with my inputs and
do not over drive the car. It may hurt my lap times but it is just my style. However!
I am consistent and constantly improving. So I think if you find the limits of
the programing threshold the nannies come on. Can they cause a wreck or loss
of control hell YES! Especially if you have modified the suspension/tires/wheels,
etc. I will not exceed the specs of the R with my wheel and tire combo for the
track. I have a wheel I want but it is uber pricey (GA1R). As for tires and for
the same reason I just mentioned, will be keeping close to the R spec as to not
confuse the car when it decides to intrude. Once my skill improves and I gain
much more confidence in the car and my self and can push the cars limits without
intrusion I while experiment with a more aggressive tire.
Holy shit! you got to talk to Randy Pobst about the GT350R? I'd give anything for a chance to do that.
Damn, you made me realize I didn't touch on how rates of yaw and rate of input play a huge role in everything.
If traction control was ever designed to a person's driving style, it's Randy's driving style for sure.
What do you fly?
Also, sweet exhaust videos too!
Russell G.S. no longer flying but i am still in the industry, CH-47D/F. when did you go through flt school? instructor course? i was instructing at Rucker knox field 06-09.
Wow, small world. I went through flight school in 06, IP course in 11, and I just finished the IE course 2 weeks ago.
small world indeed!!! I will ask Randy if he was in Track mode but I'm sure he was not ; )
Harold Ortiz If you get the chance ask him if he wants to drive a firebird at Barber next weekend too!
Really iNtErEsTiNg take on "stability control" (in general). Coming from a RWD, air-cooled background, you can guess I am clueless about these new fangled electronic controls (GR8T lesson BTW). But being a devote gear head and (computer guy).. I found it very fascinating. One of the best descriptions + examples I've heard :) Now if you could just explain why you guys like to put water in your engines, the world would make more sense. Thanks for the video. Cheers!
I am 100% with you
This explains why it's always this generation mustangs that end up crashing
This is all bad news for me because I definitely want wider wheels and tires..
So pulling the fuse does nothing it still stays on in certain conditions?
I think we need to instrument the brake pressure and figure out what the system is really doing. I think this "undocumented feature" has killed people. If everything is off according to the factory, but you can show brake activation without pedal depression, I think Ford may have a real liability problem on its hands. High slip angle and high steering angle does not mean a loss of control if this is what the driver intended. If while at high slip and high steering angle the computer does something that suddenly eliminates the slip, they have made the vehicle do something thr driver did not intend, the very definition of loss of control.
I think when you do a video, turn your voice up and sound effects down
Will do next time
Your videos are awesome. I enjoy when someone takes it to the next level of detail and not "bolt this on" because "my cousin did and he loved it". Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the "how to videos" but I always try to couple it with "why" and "what is the net result"....I have to ask,. I have a 2008 GT so should I expect the same or is this on later 5.0 models ? I know I have a TCS button but have seen nothing on stability control...I can tell you this...If I wind her up, pop 2nd gear she breaks loose and I have had the car "correct" for me...felt like it backed me off momentarily...thoughts?
But they do sound nice! 👍🏻
ABS is kinda handy, but it wouldn't be so bad to pull the fuse and go without it, would it?
.fifth gear is just not interested. Second being live real axle and an overstepping stability control system. In a controlled slip the tcs grabbed almost put me off the road. Its happened enough that I dont trust the car. I was really hoping the mustang would help me forget the c6 corvette that paid the price when it vwas totaled in an accident with livestock in the road..but not so much. Should have waited for another vette, not happy having my decisions vetoed in key moments. It’s supposed to be a sports car..i bought it to drive it,
Corvettes can get away from you too. I had a C5 that would easily throw the rear end out if the traction control was off. The difference is more KIDS and inexperienced ADULTS have access to Mustangs. A person at McDonalds can get a Mustang GT that's never had a rear wheel drive car with 400HP. That means there are lots more Mustangs driven by kids and inexperienced adults= more Mustang accidents.
I drove ancient cars with none of those training wheels. More fun to drive with skill. Sure it's exciting, but the organic feel of no p/s, feedback from seat and steering wheel i believe hone your skills. Watch Netflix: the 24 Le mans Ford and Ferrari driver's hitting 150 + manage to control for the most part. To be honest I never drove a mid engine 427, how different is it? I'll never know so i don't claim to know what's best
it happened to me in my 2011...i caught it on video and uploaded it
There he is! Love your channel boss. Peace
Which fuse turns it completely off on my 18 GT ?
No matter what when you are doing a burnout you are outer control that is why you need a large empty space not on the streets