Fall, Subjugation, and Rise of the Bajoran Race
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ต.ค. 2024
- What's up Lore Masters, Let's discuss the Bajorans
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As for Sisko stopping Bajor's entrance into the Federation: The wormhole aliens communicated to him that if Bajor joined the Federation, it would be destroyed in the Dominion War. So not just a religious nut convincing the Bajorans, but a Starfleet officer acting on reliable intelligence.
Also kinda obvious given that the Bajorans really only had one developed planet and a smattering of small colonies elsewhere, whereas the Dominion was massive.
You can bet the Cardassians would have wrought misery and suffering on Bajorans as payment for the humiliation of defeat.
A few things that might've slowed down Bajor's interstellar ambitions: They knew the Celestial Temple was in their system and they had multiple habitable bodies in the system. Therefore sublight was all they really needed for colonization and pilgrimage.
They would not want to venture far from their gods.
@@2bituser569 but why not? spread the word of the prophets^^
otter sir otten
When watching Kira talking to Odo s7 he says he wishes he had faith so he could go with her to temple. Kira says to effect of you’re always welcome but without faith you probably won’t get much from it. Odo inquires about having orb experience but Kira claims you need faith first which isn’t necessarily true for others we have seen before do orb visitation.
What I gathered from this exchange is they aren’t too evangelistic yet they do welcome non Bajorans into the faith. I don’t see them going in pairs like Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses do.
one COULD argue that "provisional Government" is not a form of state, but... well, form of government, so the term Bajoran Republic (especially in treaties) was used from the beginning but as the government was not fully functional and maybe not confimed by public elections yet, all decisions were referenced to the provisional government.
And now, I go taking cover from Lores rage ;P
Provisional governments are usually the governments that exist at the start of a State's existence before a constitutionally-mandated method of selecting the subsequent members is established, most commonly formed from a pre-existing provincial government, high-ranking members of insurgent groups fighting for independence or a government-in-exile.
I wonder which one Bajor was? Was it the fruition of some attempt at building a functioning government from scratch? A cabal of insurgent groups just waiting for civvies to take their eventual place? Or was there some exiled group (e.g. in the Federation) that had formed a model government that was at that point enforced on the planet?
Would've been interesting to go more for those dynamics: First would always carry a high likelihood of failure and repeat attempts; the second would fall into a junta very easily (which nearly happened, IIRC); and the third would be seen as a foreign imposition.
Why didn't Starfleet ever use the anomaly that let the 16th-century Bajorans and Sisko to instantly travel to Cardassia during the Dominion War? Being able to launch an instant attack so deep behind the lines could be very effective. Use Klingon ships so if the battle goes poorly they can cloak and escape, General Martock would love it.
OH god the solar ship, made with wood, canvas and somehow magicked into space
You know part of why the dominion probably kept it's deal with Bajor is Bajor was a complete non-threat, so a perfect empire to use as an example of good will. I mean what the hell were they going to do, attack them with sublight fighters? lol. One Jem'Hadar attack ship could probably eliminate the entire Bajorian navy. Odo seemed to think a single Warbird could.
The bajorans have thier own.....personal.....Jesus... someone who cares
@R Mcdud Reach out...touch faith!
Reach out... touch Pah
With regard to the 5 month pregnancy of bajoran women/mothers, I'd imagine it's actually longer. Kira had yoshi in her for 5 months, but she shouldn't be the standard, considering, 1 yoshi is fully human, & 2 was likely developing in keko for a few months before the accident that forced the transfer.
if we look at India we can see that under occupation they became more religious and strengthened their caste system. i think this might be the case in regards to Bajor. they might have been less spiritual and allowed more flexibility of the castes than we see in the show. the steel they made was also pretty incredible for its time and by the time they were subjugated by the British they had lost this do to mongol invasions, which might be sort of what the Pa-Wraiths did when the prophets showed up. it would be more like they were held back due to the destruction caused by the collateral damage from the civil war of the worm hole aliens.
Though I wonder if it's really a fall if the Prophets basically engineered what transpired.
Bajorans of Bajor? Fascinating!
Earthlings of earth? Remarkable!
@@solduspython Vulcans of Vulcan? Inconceivable!
The bajorns where indeed a very devout religious people. The death chant to me is a pure example of this. I am in agreement with you on this Lore. Where I disagree with you is I don't believe that it was all they cared about. I believe the average bajorin cared about its family and Community more than anything.
I come at this from a very particular bias, being a pastor. I don't believe religion hindered the Bajoran people in any way. It contributed to their art, philosophy, and their science. During the Cardassian occupation it gave them something to hold onto, and it kept them from being destroyed in the Dominion War. And where science could not provide answers for the Federation, the Prophets did.
As for having a Caste system, I think that term is a bit pejorative in the Star Trek universe. To me it seemed less like a strict Caste system, and more like a family's or tribe's adherence and loyalty to a particular trade. It didn't seem like there were lower castes or higher castes, not like what Eastern religions have in terms of castes.
"Toxic endorphins levels"...that's my response as well dude.
if all Bajorans are as hot as Kira they can dock my star ship all the way
Hey you rock man I fucx with you line that .... droppin knowledge
Had Sisko not stopped Bajor from joining the Federation, they would have been the Dominion's first target. Federation wouldn't have been able to protect them.
Dont listen to the haters brother
Bajorans are basically Star Trek’s Naboo?
As to Bajorans giving the Federation DS9 ment they had to join the federation... Not really. Essentially they just traded them a big mining station that had been used to strip mine Bajor ( which they likely hated with a passion. ) to at track a a powerful group that could encourage trader to come there.
Completly agree the wormhole alien religion trashed them as a civilization since before the end of Earths last ice age, and turned them into a door mat for other empires.
So your telling me the prophets might have indirectly caused the cardassian occupation by causing the bajorans to stagnate? I’d buy it
I would think that the prophets, being able to look both ways in time, probably saw that the occupation was inevitable no matter what they did, short of wiping out Cardassia, so they instead decided to simply guide the Bajorans through to the other side of the inevitable occupation.
I suspect Bajor did join the Federation shortly after the show ended. They had enough experience with Romulans and Klingons during the show to know not to trust them too far and since the Federation would be heavily involved in trying to rebuild Cardassia then Bajor might as well join the Federation.
Why is Kira so beautiful 😍😍😍 .
Lol, you added a Destiny politique video to the Play list for this lore series.
Since the wormhole aliens stated a few times, they are of bajor. Meaning before the modern day bajorans, the WA must of achieved some form of spiritual ascension, leaving behind who knows what. Or my personal theory, the bajorans of 20000 years ago where seeking spiritual ascension and when some did at the time of the orbs n wormhole being created too watch the ppl worship them
Since the WA aliens don't experience time linearly, they could be Bajorans from 20000 years in the _future_ who achieve some form of spiritual ascension.
@@everything6582, they did say a few times, what was shall become, making your theory rather good too
So those worm hole aliens stopped them becoming more like vulcans and turned them into a bunch of hippies, kind of makes me wounder how advanced they could of become, case in point they had solar sails that could go about warp one with the sub space currents and when they found the orbs at the begging it messed up there space travel advancement
I doubt I'm the only one who noticed that the Prophets themselves originated on Bajor and are likely the predecessor civilization on that planet, before they evolved to their current state.
Makes sense. They always say, “We are of Bajor”.
Maybe a what if video on if Bajor did join the federation at the time it would have?
Carsassian occupation 2 electric boogaloo
But Ben was s "Space Jesus" given that he was in some part descended from a wormhole alien which was one of their gods and thus he was in part wormhole alien as well as human. So yeah, Space Jesus to them.
I've never really cared for the Bojorans. I get what the writers were going for but it doesn't really translate to a post 911 world. The Bajorans went from an oppressive caste based system to terrorists and religious extremists to Xenophobes to ... I don't know because the writers stopped writing stories about them. We know the Cardassions were flooding Bajor with weapons and there plenty left over from the war. At the end of season 1 and the start season 2 we see the Bajorans pick up those weapons and start to use them in what could be seen as a popular uprising. Did everyone just decide to just go home? Because that's how revolutions work. What happened to all those weapons? My guess is the writers wrote themselves into an uncomfortable position with the Bajorans and then forgot about it and moved on. I see the Bajorans as the Fremen of Star Trek waiting for their own Jihad.
I'm really interested in the context surrounding the start of The Occupation. Bajor and Cardassia Prime are approximately 5 light years away from each other. For context Earth is 4 LY from Alpha Centauri and 17 from Vulcan. Bajor and Cardassia Prime are next to each other. The Cardassian Union/Empire was not small and yet it didn't annex Bajor until centuries after it had developed Warp Drive. Warp Drive being something that the Bajorans didn't have. It seems to me there is something we are not being told about how this war started.
I was under the impression the aggressive Cardassian expansion and conquest policy was a relatively recent situation due to the bad resource and economic situation they had a few decades before the DS9 era.
Bajor was left alone until the Cardassian military took over
Perhaps The Cardassians were like The Holy Roman Empire. Not holy, not roman and not an empire.
Alternatively, Cardassia only started to expand its borders relatively recently, after they had recovered from a period of extreme economic hardship (this is referenced on TNG but not so much on DS9). This would fit in well with the (subtle as a jackhammer) nazi parallels which the writers were constantly inserting.
🤘😜🤘
Damn Space Jesus.
@Lorereloaded Bajor is not a Theocracy. Pls make sure you know what you're talking about. A Theocracy is a form of government where the government is formed by a religious body and head of state, like Iran or the Vatican.
In the first couple of episodes it's clearly stated that Bajor has a government that is independent of the religious leaders (the Kai and the vedek assembly). The Bajor is a modern nation the clearly follows the philosophy of the separation of powers.
The religious leaders may influence their politics, like the pope and the Vatican are influencing modern day governments but they have no real political power.
I know what I’m talking about and comfortable with what’s presented here. Thanks for the feedback :)
@@LoreReloaded You may be comfortable about that but that doesn't mean you're right.
There's a difference between personal opinions and true facts. You're calling yourself an expert on trek lore, so you should make sure you're getting your facts right.
The Poland of star trek
But let's admit it we're all thirsty for Bajoran women!
Personally I prefer the Trill their spots go all the way down
Top hat minion.
And likely the Trill having been a man prior at some point knows what we like and as a women has a lot of experience...
Klingon actually.
The men and women.
@@2bituser569 Only a few, relatively speaking, Trill ever get to be hosts. So just go get an un-joined Trill.
Or better yet, a Trill-Bajoran hybrid, assuming they can have children together.
👍
The Bajoran pregnancy issues. They must be completely calm, is an interesting characteristic.
It actually explains a lot about the Bajorans. Firstly that they gestate a baby in shorter time than a Human, which might mean their brains are smaller, they are less developed when they leave the womb. This means that Bajorans have to spend even more time and resources caring for a baby. Ditto the fact that a Bajoran woman has to be completely calm during pregnancy. Or she will die, puts a lot of stress on the Bajoran woman, her partner, and their family. What does this mean? Bajorans have to spend a lot more effort getting the next generation to adulthood safely. They have less time before birth, and birth is much more dangerous.( The Cardassian taking of sex slaves, was really nasty even for a sentence with sex slave in it. . ) What this meant is that the Bajorans had to do things. They needed to advance quickly. Bang the rocks together- get antisceptic birth down. Get enough science and engineering to get to a place where most women will not die in childbirth. So something like a steampunk world arose very quickly. The Bajorans explore but cautiously. Sail ships are safe, but fusion reactors are dangerous Then the wormhole aliens show up, and they are completely beyond Bajoran science. So the Bajorans make a religion about them, to feel safe
SidingwithSisko
I'm sensing hostility to the comment section.
Thats a day that ends in Y for me
So the 1st (Not French) Republic gets invaded by Nazis and forms a resistance.... FRENCH IN SPACE?!
Didn't they try to blow up the system's star?
before the negotiations i think
I wonder why there are so few mixed race children on Bajor
I will say this is one of best break down you have done in Star Trek .
The Bajorans were the French in ww2, Cardassians=Germans.
Wtf toxic endorphin levels lol
Great info...terrible audio
And on the six day our lord and savior siscko said NO TO THE FEDERATION!! and with his mighty pimp hand laid the smack down all naysayers
Ok I have qestion XD How the did Ben Sisko Pimphand joke start?
look up - spenser for hire best of hawk
@@AnestNightroad sf debris
I wouldn't have minded tapping some bajoran strange. Bet those chicks are pistols in the sack;)
Gul Dukat did nothing wrong...
Yikes
looks like someone's been reading Mao ⤵👎
"Yikes"
It was the right decision and your anti religious rhetoric sickens me.
What anti religious rhetoric ... I outright attacked religion? That’s horrible !
What he said was anti-theocracy, not anti-religious even if they were right in the context of the show.
Damn sorry I was just talking out my ass. You know, Covid boredom.
In all seriousness though, I think the Bajorins religion/spirituality had many positive benefits and I do feel you alluded that it may have contributed to the Bajorins technological stagnation, as some sort of antiquated stereotype, and had criticisms about their political decisions due to a messiah character, even though the show offers very real and tangible evidence of the prophets abilities and power which including time travel. Orbs that many citizens had access to as well. Under those circumstances I don't think its unusual at all for a people to take that kind of direction seriously.
If any flaw can be extracted its that their spirituality led them to being an overly pacifist culture when the Cardis came for them. However, you could also argue that their spirituality was a large driving force in their survival and liberation. Given the provisional government was quite fractured at times, the spiritual leaders seemed to help keep things together, reminding them all of their commonalities... well except for nurse Ratchet.
I think in many ways its meant to reflect the Jews and one could hardly call them scientifically stagnant even though many are deeply spiritual.
Ahh sorry, I thought the name was familiar but I never know. You would be surprised how much I get called unironifally a sexist, hater of religion , sjw, cuck, racist and more... unless I’m sure I never know how to take these.. sorry
@@LoreReloaded its true. Cancel culture is a disease. A final note though Q said it best, that it's not about mapping nebula and stars but exploring the possibilities of existence. The video had a very technocratic point if view.
Sisko = space jesus
Gul dukat = space lucifer?
@R Mcdud It will always be a great disappointment to me that we never saw Mirror Dukat, leader of the resistance and emissary to the prophets. That'd made a much better final mirror universe episode.
@@BlazingOwnager That would have been pretty cool to see. We also didn't get a mirror Damar. Mirror Garak was hilarious though.
I didn't really care for Discovery but one neat thing they did was make Voq a good guy in the mirror universe.
BlazingOwnager
Were the mirror prophets same as our prophets or different individuals altogether? Were mirror prophets good or like the Pa Wraiths evil?
@@2bituser569 The prophets exist outside of time. So they were the same beings in every universe. The differences lie in how the people in each universe perceives them.