We went with Heatable and the install was finished in Feb this year. Their customer service was absolutely excellent - our install was not trivial. We got the AIO - that 6kW power is just too good to turn down. Since our install, I've seen the installers that did our system on other vids with Artisan Electrical (not that it means so much heh). I particularly wanted the microinverter system, and we've been extremely happy with the system performance, install quality, and customer care. I happily recommend Heatable to anyone looking into solar/battery for their home.
I liked the clear and logical way you have gone through all the different quotes and options. Things have definitely moved on from a year ago when I got my solar/battery system, it seemed very difficult to get quotes, most companies were over-run with customers getting installations off the back of the Ukraine war. In the end I went back to the company I bought my ASHP from. Plugging my predicted generation and price into your spreadsheet I paid £1827 per generated kWh inc battery and £1449 excluding, so pleased to see I wasn’t mugged off ! My system is on the East and West sides of my roof and one benefit you will get of a such a split system is you get a long generation day in summer. Estimate 7934kWh generated and at the end of year 1 it was 7629kWh, so pretty close.
Thanks for the comment! One of the reasons it took us so long is the high demand was last year. All of the seemingly reputable local firms had their books full for many months. I shifted my attention to the heat pump and once that was installed, I set about Solar once again during the winter when others clearly aren't thinking about it as much!
As a surveyor myself in this situation i would be suggesting 550w panels on the front of the house you will get 5 on there. 4 panels on the back side is probably the better solution this will give you an output of 4.95 kwp. Go with a battery that matches your daily electrical consumption. The average 3 bed home use 10kw a day, so go for the 13.5kw system. In my opinion this is the most effective solution and what i tell my customers when i do my surveys.
We have just gone through the same dilemma as you, and had a multitude of proposals to mull over. Ended up deciding to go with Heatable, and paid our deposit a couple of weeks ago. Wanted the Enphase iQ8 microconvertors and a Tesla Powerwall 3, as the panels will end up going on four different roof faces. Ours is a complicated roof, and out of all the proposals, Heatable along with their excellent reviews, convinced me the most that they were the ones capable of 'doing the job'. Just hope I'm right!!!
I would say to look into the 13.5 givenergy battery because it should be the All In One which has a higher output at 6kW (and full built in UPS as standard). With micro inverters or optimisers I would definitely try to squeeze panels on the 2 south facing small triangles.
I go local rather than one of the big players. Our local installer was amazing 10 years ago. Came the day before, when we were out and worked out the roof angles. Came at the weekend with multiple proposals, no sales BS. Unfortunately, residential isn't his game anymore as it's really physical and he can do commercial much easier. I think the bigger the battery the better...
thanks for your great content - reallly impressive analysis and insight just installing a 17KW bosch heatpump - no money for batteries yet what is best electricity tariff provider for heatpump owners thanks in advance
Thanks for the comment. I'd recommend watching these two videos which should guide you : th-cam.com/video/6gtg6AZts1E/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/hXCiZwlTuk0/w-d-xo.html If you have any further specific questions that I haven't addressed then just let me know!
Surely you need to be putting some panels on that SW facing gable, you might only get 4 but that is the best location you have. Also have some on the SE facing roof and you have good coverage throughout the day. Ensure these are on separate strings. I wouldn't bother with any on the north side. Not sure you'll need micro inverters as half cell panels deal reasonably well with shading anyway.
Been studying this subject for my house last 12 months cutting through all the sales BS. If yours was my house I would measure up and consider REC Alpha Pure R or RX panels on those two elevations with a Sunsynk 3.65kw Ecco bi-directional Hybrid inverter and get a local installer. Both top shelf premium products you can review all that on YT. REC panels have multiple bypass diodes for that bit of sunshade but their efficiency rating, NMOT and yearly degradation is best in class. They are not cheap for a reason. Worry about the battery later once you know your production. In roof does look better than on roof. Good luck!
Thanks for the tip about REC. A quick look suggests that some people have struggled with a large array of these because those panels use a higher than typical voltage and lower than typical amperage, so some inverters don't work as well with them. The Sunsynk inverters do have beefier specs than most, I have noticed that, so maybe not a problem with them. I was thinking to go bigger on the inverter to future proof the addition of batteries. Maybe go for the 8kW sunsynk to have the ultimate charge and discharge rates? I appreciate a G99 needed instead of G98 notification. It may be needed for a 16 panel array on the back of the house anyway or i'm sure it will run into clipping on the 3.6 during summer?
@@UpsideDownFork Im doing a complete house re-roof on 3 sides with an in roof system. Your G99/98 application depends on the inverter size and not panel arrays. REC are good with any std inverter and yes some problems with specific panels with Enphase at this moment but that is an Enphase limitation and not the panels. I have a NW aspect I could fit 3 panels on to make use of say 3months worth sun (if it shines) however been advised the outlay cost for the amount generated will never pay for itself. I'd be doing it only because Im re-roofing and saving tiles. Note : A UK south facing 400W panel won't output that in UK and at best 340W ish on the best day due to combination of UK max. irradiance levels, panel NMOT, and temp. coefficients (thats why panel specs are important) etc so read up on that. How many good days do we get in UK? Take independent advice on the 16 panel array and get them to honestly tell you how much it will really produce on a good day in summer only and then look at the cost. So, based on reality and cost, you might end up balancing out the front/rear array sizes and a 3.65kW inverter maybe right as inverters are always under spec'd to the size of the array? Heatable use top quality premium Australian 420W REA panels which use the Enphase IQ7+ micro inverter who's peak output is 295W (yes, 295W) thereafter clipping but because of that, it had better low light startup performance. If you decide to forfeit some of the rear panels and re-allocate the cost to do all your front aspects for better daylight generation, you will be forced down the Enphase /Solar Edge path or some combo with std inverter and a couple of optimised panels with say TIGO etc. . Again, take professional advice. You would need a local installer prepared to work with you on that.This leaves the battery dilemma. I decided that an AC coupled battery route works best for me. There are plenty to choose from but software issues and winter performance can plague some and that is another rabbit hole. Seems Tesla PW2 are the most resilient but cost the most unless you can get a good deal. For panels, check out "Solartime with Martyna" who has done real testing with various panels in Texas with shade, inverters and micro inverters. Hope this all helps.
@@wajopek2679 I have been watching that channel and learnt a lot, as well as having the crash course from Gary does solar. I've been DIY modeling my roof in opensolar and easy pv, along with verifying the results in pvgis. It's interesting to see the shading factor that some installers do or do not use.
Another interesting video and spreadsheet! So I've just plugged my house into heatable's calculator knowing my house isn't ideal given the gable end is south facing. I guess it uses a lot of assumptions behind the scenes for the calcs and I'd ignore the actual cost savings given it didn't ask me about current provider/tariff. One estimate I'd be interesting in seeing if accurate is the amount of energy generated. I guess to then come up with your own savings calcs you'd need to see the distribution across the day/month/year. At their est savings one roof will take 14.5 years to return the capital investment and both will be 12.5. As I said I don't trust their calcs as I'm on Octopus tracker so the electricity rate is lower and they wouldn't have calculated any export payments.
Shurly in terms of getting the best bang for buck, putting the bulk of your panels on a north facing roof is a bad idea? I'd just stick to getting as many as possible on the front of the house. Less cost and shorter pay back.
if you can keep costs down while you already have scaffolding up, the panel costs can be worth slapping some on that north roof. I have 2.6kwp on my south because it was fitted back in 2012. I can’t touch it because its FIT. I’ve just put in 3.9kwp on the north roof. In summer the south will do better, but in lower months the north gives useful generation especially in terms of keeping the battery topped up and running through the day.
Thanks for the comment. Having had a few breakdowns on the costs now, the rear panels work out less than 50% of the cost compared to the front panels but should produce about 60% of the generation. So kWh per £££ invested is looking higher for the back roof than the front at the moment.
Definitely go local and avoid the big boys. I got solar in 2010 when panels were expensive but FITs were very generous. I spent loads of time doing an obstruction survey to assess the impact of shading from some trees to the left of our house. My estimates turned out to be quite accurate. North facing panels made no economic sense in those days but may do now with the cost of panels. I’m sure you will, but do your sums very carefully. Don’t under estimate the impact of shade - it’s absolute killer for PV.
That’s interesting. I just picked up a heatable quote for a 22 panel install and enphase micros and battery and it was a couple of grand less and only 7 months. Maybe it’s cheaper because we are in Cheshire.
@@UpsideDownFork 3 discrete roof faces. My local installer was quoting a similar price to what you were being quoted but with a seemingly much cheaper Chinese panel (when I look up the trade prices they are about £60 per panel, excluding microinveter)
@@yp77738yp77739 I've been watching the solar prices fall but I didn't realise they were falling this much. perhaps time for me to revisit a Heatable quote.
@@UpsideDownFork I saw it and it’s one of these cases where it seems too good to be true. Im a cynic by nature and am trying to work out where the catch is, not found it yet. They must still be making an acceptable profit or they wouldn’t do it.
@@yp77738yp77739 I've quickly re-run the quote. Now it's £9,920 for 19 panels, but they are now improved from 420W up to 440W and IQ8 inverters now instead of IQ7A.
if you do go north, and genuinely have no/little shading, you can probably shave the cost by having that string not have micro inverters, just keep those for the awkward south roof
I have the same. Because of the size of my array I had to have 2 inverters which have the East/West panes split on different strings and the winter shaded/not shaded on different strings. Micro inverters are great when you have trees or other partial shading, not sure they are as essential if you have solid/full shading from houses etc, the diodes in the panel do the same
Presumably the kWp is just all the panels added up and not the actual peak output? Your DNO might raise its eyebrows at 8kWp being connected to the grid, unless it takes into account positioning.
Yes, the theoretical maximum is a lot due to the number of panels, but due to the orientation it's highly unlikely to get close to the peak. DNO limitations could be a factor nonetheless.
The DNO will be concerned with the inverter capacity not the panel capacity which is why inverters are usually undersized for the peak of the panels (i.e 8.2kwh panels with a 6kwh inverter). They would be more likely to apply export limmiation rather then refusal though.
They're pointless in residential situations because they provide so little power. Solar all the way and download cheap energy into the battery when the wind blows (if your tariff allows it, Octopus Agile does).
Wind turbines only make sense if you can have them higher that buildings in the area or live on a farm and based on his house this is not possible. Small win d turbines and expensive and do not generate their quoted output and also brake as the do not have the built on protection that the commercial turbines have installed
@@KavanOBrienResidential wind generation is a joke and somewhat of a con. If you do your research on YT for ppl in the UK you'll see why. You can export excess wind power under Seg, but generating enough is an unlikely scenario
Hey dude, I messaged back on Gray dose solar. I have watched a couple of your videos and come up with a short any easy answer for you. you made a mistake with cutting off your gas, I commend how you did it good man but that's not my point. My point is you now have a very large whole to fill with your solar system. and you do not want to under size this. cheapest solution i can see is, get the largest sized panels on your roof as you can 455- 550+. it really helps on cloudy days! Can you put some in your garden? yes then do it! Go for the givenergy hybrid system then add 2 batteries on yourself they are basically plug and play I wish I did this, would have saved myself £5k. What is you estimated usage with everything now?
Thanks for the comment. Usage before HP was 2500kWh. HP is forecast to use another 3000kWh, but so far it's looking like we'll come in well under that. I've budgeted 5500kWh anyway to try and cover our total consumption.
@@UpsideDownFork I would still suggest going for the larger battery. Especially if you're going to give back to the grid during peak time to make the payback shorter.
@@UpsideDownFork I'm sure you have looked into them but a givenergy hybrid plug and play battery system is great for saving money. you buy the system you want without the batteries and add them you thousands cheaper yourself after. Or adding another battery to that system is also just as simple. I did this of this but it works out really well for me to have the Octopus intelligent flux tariff over a bigger battery with low night rates because u produce more than i use. I use 6k I produce 8k. Have you also considered a small wind turbine if you don't have enough south facing roof space? It's best to do it at the same time due to the wiring to the consumer units.
@@grantmidd Thanks for the comments, it's good to keep me thinking! It looks to be the case with many of the 48V DC battery packs that they can be added very easily by the consumer, rather than needing a professional to do so. Certainly for sunsynk as well, I have heard of many people going this way. I've definitely steered away from givenergy due to their low charge and discharge rates and how slowly they ramp up to their maximum, comparative to the competition. In my case from the quotes i've had, it works out slightly cheaper to get an electrician to do it and reclaim the VAT than to buy the battery myself. A wind turbine wouldn't work here due to being packed into a close and surrounded by trees, there just isn't any wind to speak of most of the time. I investigated a 1kW as well as a 200w domestic wind turbine, but the wind speeds they need to function, let alone produce any meaningful power indicates that they are useful for those people living in very exposed areas, like hilltops or seafronts, but for the rest of us, wind turbines seem to be pointless right now.
just tried the Heatable online tool for a property i'm thinking of buying and idea why they can only quote up to a max of 20 panels ?, the tool actually predicted I could get 22 on the rear (east facing) and 8 on the front (west facing)(as I excluded a third of the front area due to pitched dormer). also is it true that the IQ7 micro inverters are not heavily affected by shading as maybe a quarter of the rear roof has a tall tree from 20 feet away giving some shade ?
they do a 5.2 which is 80% so only 4.something usable. the 8.2 is 100% usage (its more like a 10kwh inside). I think the 8.2 is the most cost effectve per kwh, but if you need more than that, the 9.5 is not far behind.
Just remember when you say 'x' panels will cover my entire yearly usage. That usage is spread across day and night obviously, the Web site 'savings' calculators can be deceptive. Also, having a single inverter (GE 5k for example) with say 2*9.5kwh batteries. While total storage is 19.x kwH, the inverter can only use a single battery at a time. So the max discharge of each battery is 3600W (same as inverter) but you won't get 7200w due to it working with a single battery at a time..
Your answer at the end is correct, but the inverter doesn’t ’work with a single battery at a time’, the batteries are daisy chained together on the GivEnergy inverter and sees and reports them as a single large battery. The input and output is limited to the inverter limits - e.g. 3.6kW. Multiple inverters can increase your throughput but there are other potential issues with this setup like cross charging on the newer inverters.
@@geoffreycoan Beg your pardon then Geoff. Either or, if higher wattage is required, then multi-inverters needed, and last I looked it wasn't recommended by GE.
@@stuartburns8657you are absolutely correct, multi-inverters are not a recommended by GivEnergy. My installers designed my system with two GE 5kW hybrid inverters, and it was only afterwards that I found (in the GivEnergy website FAQ’s) that this isn’t a recommended design. Having said that, my two gen 1 hybrid inverters work absolutely perfectly together, they both charge from solar and they both detect and respond to house load - sharing it between them. I’m very happy with this config even though it’s not recommended. I think most of the multi-inverter issues GE have are with AC coupled inverters. There is a multi-inverter control box “coming” at some point …
No, they are a supplier but have a list of installers around the country. Basically you can get the kit from them and sub-contract the installation to your preffered installer then you get 0% VAT on the equipment as well.
Don't discount micro inverters. A hybrid inverter has a lifespan of max 12 years. Enphase have a 25year warranty. You could potentially have to buy 2 or even 3 hybrid inverters. Some people also view that having 5+kw of AC piped into your home is safer than 5+kw of DC. Just a thought before you commit.
Thanks for the comment. I have been thoroughly investigating microinverters. On the surface they do seem like the ultimate solution, however digging deeper has revealed the following to me. - Severely limits battery options if you want it all in one. - Significantly increases battery costs - Enphase do seem to be one of the better ones, but stories about their warranty process depict a complete shambles. One failure on a roof of 22 panels is not unheard of, well within the warranty period, but scaffold etc is not always sufficiently covered. Some installers digging into their own pockets to subsidise the enphase warranty. I'm not sure how much of this is internet scaremongering, but there are legitimately solar installers who have turned away from enphase after some of these issues. - Clipping during the peak production months. - The claims of earlier start up and later shut down appear to be overstated from several independent tests. Especially against modern hybrid inverters which seem to now have lower start up voltage and better MPPT optimisation. I plan to best protect a hybrid inverter by fitting it in our nice and dry garage as opposed to the loft and by ensuring it has the correct surge protection as heat and grid voltage fluctuations are cited as the 2 most common causes of hybrid inverter failure. If and when the hybrid inverter does fail, it will be a very simple and easy job to replace if sited in the garage. I might be completely wrong on all counts but that's what my research seems to indicate.
Great video The market will have moved on from Hybrids in the next few years. Micros are the only way to go (in my experience). The safety element alone is worth it, plus you’ll get full panel independence. I get 20 calls a month from some poor sod who’s got a string system which is down/broken or simply not working. Re your battery question, there is no limitation when fitting an AC coupled battery, if anything it provides even more power as you can pull from the panels and battery separately, you’re not clipped by the inverters max rating. Final final one - Clipping on micros in the UK is basically unheard of. If you can get a panel above 300w on any of those roofs in the UK for more than a few days a year I’ll eat my hat.
@@PVOK232 Thanks for the comment, real world experience is invaluable! Do you notice any trends or a common denominator when it comes to broken down string systems?
After 27 years in the UK solar industry... 1. There is a critical mistake in your spreadsheet, you put the price per kWh installed but haven't divided it by the shortest key warranty length, if you I'm going to have to replace key components like batteries, inverter and panels in a relatively short period that's going to change the price per kWh, look at the full lifetime cost, not just the purchase cost. You are making a classic first time buyer mistake. 2. Don't go with local companies, they really only buying off two wholesalers: Midsummer or Segen, same Chinese forced labour panels, local companies don't have the resources to survive recessions, industry downturns, key personnel leaving etc so they go bust pretty quickly, most don't seem to survive longer than three to five years in this industry - big purchases should be with big companies, would you buy your new car from an unknown manufacturer? 3. Make sure the companies are FCA, HIES and EVPS protected, again only the big companies are. Big companies get big by experience, and lots of satisfied customers before you. 4. Look for a minimum of a 15-year battery warranty with swappable cells, otherwise you could end up have to replace the whole unit in somewhere between 5 to 15 years, that will cost thousands again, big mistake. 5. Don't make your customer service judgement based on dealing with one guy, what happens if he leaves the company next week?, look at their trust pilot reviews to get a general view, call their customer services number see how quickly they respond. 6. There are panels on the UK market which are attuned to work in low light levels and don't need direct sunshine, they just work on daylight so work perfectly fine on north or northeast or northwest roof. Small clue they're not the Chinese forced labour panels which by the way are optimised to work in hotter climates than the UK closer to the equator. 7. Don't go to order aggregators, basically middleman which work between the customer and these little local companies, again they will push up the price. 8. Did you check that the inverter has been sized correctly, no point having a 7 kw array with a 3.68 kw inverter, total waste of time, you have a 3.68 kw solar system. 9. Don't go to buying groups, especially so-called council backed ones, this is a commercial transaction - nothing to do with the council, you think you're getting a discount but the 'winning' companies are just cutting corners to get the price down plus they have to deal with a tsunami of orders and then business dries up afterwards so they rushed to throw the cheapest panel they can find on your roof because they have a mountain of orders for a short period, then loads of customer service problems, then they go bust, seen it time and time again. 10. Don't listen to so-called armchair experts, neighbours, relatives, friends, people have only had one solar system installed, because they only have the experience of their own one and only solar system, the roof and energy consumption will be different to yours and they might think they have the best but they're driving a Ford and they've never driven a Rolls Royce. Would you get advice from a surgeon who has only performed one operation? 11. Don't buy your solar system from an energy company, they are the gamekeeper, they make their money by selling you your energy, in my experience most of them are grudgingly in the solar industry to look green and keep the spectre of windwall taxes away and it is not core to their business. Octopus Energy is owned by Octopus Capital, basically a venture capital company, which literally says they say have tentacles in different areas, last time I checked Octopus Energy turned over £9.4 billion a year and they made a £11 million loss on their solar business, which business is the most important to them? 12. Everything is fine until it goes wrong, who is backing and protecting the warranties? What happens when the system comes to the end of it's life? how's it going to get removed? Who is going to support the warranties if the installer goes bust? This industry is the classic buy cheap by twice, spend a little more get a lot more. We are doing a good trade in removing and replacing 10y+ old solar systems from people's roofs because a key component died, a panel or an inverter and no you can't just pop a new inverter on a system which has got an incompatible voltage with the new generation of inverters and companies aren't making 10-year-old inverters, or have a warehouse full of new old stock 250w panels which have been out of production for a decade... oh and we find the original local installer has 95 out of 100 times gone bust.
![ILLSLICK - KILLSHOT REMIX [FULL VERSION]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/RIK8RrqIAzE/mqdefault.jpg)
We went with Heatable and the install was finished in Feb this year. Their customer service was absolutely excellent - our install was not trivial. We got the AIO - that 6kW power is just too good to turn down. Since our install, I've seen the installers that did our system on other vids with Artisan Electrical (not that it means so much heh).
I particularly wanted the microinverter system, and we've been extremely happy with the system performance, install quality, and customer care. I happily recommend Heatable to anyone looking into solar/battery for their home.
Thanks for the feedback! I guess we're spoilt for choice!
I liked the clear and logical way you have gone through all the different quotes and options. Things have definitely moved on from a year ago when I got my solar/battery system, it seemed very difficult to get quotes, most companies were over-run with customers getting installations off the back of the Ukraine war. In the end I went back to the company I bought my ASHP from.
Plugging my predicted generation and price into your spreadsheet I paid £1827 per generated kWh inc battery and £1449 excluding, so pleased to see I wasn’t mugged off !
My system is on the East and West sides of my roof and one benefit you will get of a such a split system is you get a long generation day in summer.
Estimate 7934kWh generated and at the end of year 1 it was 7629kWh, so pretty close.
Thanks for the comment!
One of the reasons it took us so long is the high demand was last year. All of the seemingly reputable local firms had their books full for many months. I shifted my attention to the heat pump and once that was installed, I set about Solar once again during the winter when others clearly aren't thinking about it as much!
As a surveyor myself in this situation i would be suggesting 550w panels on the front of the house you will get 5 on there. 4 panels on the back side is probably the better solution this will give you an output of 4.95 kwp. Go with a battery that matches your daily electrical consumption. The average 3 bed home use 10kw a day, so go for the 13.5kw system. In my opinion this is the most effective solution and what i tell my customers when i do my surveys.
Thanks for chiming in!
This is what we went with in the end:
th-cam.com/video/cVPZmENGMk8/w-d-xo.html
I went with a local company. I'm glad I did. Really good customer service.
Thanks for the comment!
We have just gone through the same dilemma as you, and had a multitude of proposals to mull over. Ended up deciding to go with Heatable, and paid our deposit a couple of weeks ago. Wanted the Enphase iQ8 microconvertors and a Tesla Powerwall 3, as the panels will end up going on four different roof faces. Ours is a complicated roof, and out of all the proposals, Heatable along with their excellent reviews, convinced me the most that they were the ones capable of 'doing the job'.
Just hope I'm right!!!
@@jerrywilliams4506 fingers crossed 🤞
I would say to look into the 13.5 givenergy battery because it should be the All In One which has a higher output at 6kW (and full built in UPS as standard). With micro inverters or optimisers I would definitely try to squeeze panels on the 2 south facing small triangles.
Thanks for the comment.
It's looking like those additional faces will work out incredibly expensive per panel due to the scaffolding required.
I go local rather than one of the big players. Our local installer was amazing 10 years ago. Came the day before, when we were out and worked out the roof angles. Came at the weekend with multiple proposals, no sales BS.
Unfortunately, residential isn't his game anymore as it's really physical and he can do commercial much easier.
I think the bigger the battery the better...
Thanks for the comment! That's the plan!
thanks for your great content - reallly impressive analysis and insight
just installing a 17KW bosch heatpump -
no money for batteries yet
what is best electricity tariff provider for heatpump owners
thanks in advance
Thanks for the comment.
I'd recommend watching these two videos which should guide you :
th-cam.com/video/6gtg6AZts1E/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/hXCiZwlTuk0/w-d-xo.html
If you have any further specific questions that I haven't addressed then just let me know!
Surely you need to be putting some panels on that SW facing gable, you might only get 4 but that is the best location you have. Also have some on the SE facing roof and you have good coverage throughout the day. Ensure these are on separate strings. I wouldn't bother with any on the north side. Not sure you'll need micro inverters as half cell panels deal reasonably well with shading anyway.
Thanks for the comment!
I think the SW gable could be a great option!
Been studying this subject for my house last 12 months cutting through all the sales BS. If yours was my house I would measure up and consider REC Alpha Pure R or RX panels on those two elevations with a Sunsynk 3.65kw Ecco bi-directional Hybrid inverter and get a local installer. Both top shelf premium products you can review all that on YT.
REC panels have multiple bypass diodes for that bit of sunshade but their efficiency rating, NMOT and yearly degradation is best in class. They are not cheap for a reason. Worry about the battery later once you know your production. In roof does look better than on roof.
Good luck!
Thanks for the tip about REC. A quick look suggests that some people have struggled with a large array of these because those panels use a higher than typical voltage and lower than typical amperage, so some inverters don't work as well with them.
The Sunsynk inverters do have beefier specs than most, I have noticed that, so maybe not a problem with them.
I was thinking to go bigger on the inverter to future proof the addition of batteries. Maybe go for the 8kW sunsynk to have the ultimate charge and discharge rates?
I appreciate a G99 needed instead of G98 notification.
It may be needed for a 16 panel array on the back of the house anyway or i'm sure it will run into clipping on the 3.6 during summer?
@@UpsideDownFork Im doing a complete house re-roof on 3 sides with an in roof system. Your G99/98 application depends on the inverter size and not panel arrays. REC are good with any std inverter and yes some problems with specific panels with Enphase at this moment but that is an Enphase limitation and not the panels. I have a NW aspect I could fit 3 panels on to make use of say 3months worth sun (if it shines) however been advised the outlay cost for the amount generated will never pay for itself. I'd be doing it only because Im re-roofing and saving tiles. Note : A UK south facing 400W panel won't output that in UK and at best 340W ish on the best day due to combination of UK max. irradiance levels, panel NMOT, and temp. coefficients (thats why panel specs are important) etc so read up on that. How many good days do we get in UK? Take independent advice on the 16 panel array and get them to honestly tell you how much it will really produce on a good day in summer only and then look at the cost. So, based on reality and cost, you might end up balancing out the front/rear array sizes and a 3.65kW inverter maybe right as inverters are always under spec'd to the size of the array? Heatable use top quality premium Australian 420W REA panels which use the Enphase IQ7+ micro inverter who's peak output is 295W (yes, 295W) thereafter clipping but because of that, it had better low light startup performance. If you decide to forfeit some of the rear panels and re-allocate the cost to do all your front aspects for better daylight generation, you will be forced down the Enphase /Solar Edge path or some combo with std inverter and a couple of optimised panels with say TIGO etc. . Again, take professional advice. You would need a local installer prepared to work with you on that.This leaves the battery dilemma. I decided that an AC coupled battery route works best for me. There are plenty to choose from but software issues and winter performance can plague some and that is another rabbit hole. Seems Tesla PW2 are the most resilient but cost the most unless you can get a good deal. For panels, check out "Solartime with Martyna" who has done real testing with various panels in Texas with shade, inverters and micro inverters. Hope this all helps.
@@wajopek2679 I have been watching that channel and learnt a lot, as well as having the crash course from Gary does solar.
I've been DIY modeling my roof in opensolar and easy pv, along with verifying the results in pvgis.
It's interesting to see the shading factor that some installers do or do not use.
Another interesting video and spreadsheet! So I've just plugged my house into heatable's calculator knowing my house isn't ideal given the gable end is south facing. I guess it uses a lot of assumptions behind the scenes for the calcs and I'd ignore the actual cost savings given it didn't ask me about current provider/tariff. One estimate I'd be interesting in seeing if accurate is the amount of energy generated. I guess to then come up with your own savings calcs you'd need to see the distribution across the day/month/year.
At their est savings one roof will take 14.5 years to return the capital investment and both will be 12.5. As I said I don't trust their calcs as I'm on Octopus tracker so the electricity rate is lower and they wouldn't have calculated any export payments.
Thanks for the comment. I'd recommend you have a go with opensolar if you want to model your roof more precisely.
Shurly in terms of getting the best bang for buck, putting the bulk of your panels on a north facing roof is a bad idea? I'd just stick to getting as many as possible on the front of the house. Less cost and shorter pay back.
if you can keep costs down while you already have scaffolding up, the panel costs can be worth slapping some on that north roof. I have 2.6kwp on my south because it was fitted back in 2012. I can’t touch it because its FIT. I’ve just put in 3.9kwp on the north roof. In summer the south will do better, but in lower months the north gives useful generation especially in terms of keeping the battery topped up and running through the day.
Thanks for the comment.
Having had a few breakdowns on the costs now, the rear panels work out less than 50% of the cost compared to the front panels but should produce about 60% of the generation.
So kWh per £££ invested is looking higher for the back roof than the front at the moment.
Definitely go local and avoid the big boys. I got solar in 2010 when panels were expensive but FITs were very generous. I spent loads of time doing an obstruction survey to assess the impact of shading from some trees to the left of our house. My estimates turned out to be quite accurate. North facing panels made no economic sense in those days but may do now with the cost of panels. I’m sure you will, but do your sums very carefully. Don’t under estimate the impact of shade - it’s absolute killer for PV.
Thanks for the comment. I've been having a good plan with opensolar, easypv and pvgis to try and confirm the proposals I've received.
That’s interesting.
I just picked up a heatable quote for a 22 panel install and enphase micros and battery and it was a couple of grand less and only 7 months. Maybe it’s cheaper because we are in Cheshire.
@@yp77738yp77739 how many aspects was that across?
@@UpsideDownFork 3 discrete roof faces. My local installer was quoting a similar price to what you were being quoted but with a seemingly much cheaper Chinese panel (when I look up the trade prices they are about £60 per panel, excluding microinveter)
@@yp77738yp77739 I've been watching the solar prices fall but I didn't realise they were falling this much. perhaps time for me to revisit a Heatable quote.
@@UpsideDownFork I saw it and it’s one of these cases where it seems too good to be true. Im a cynic by nature and am trying to work out where the catch is, not found it yet. They must still be making an acceptable profit or they wouldn’t do it.
@@yp77738yp77739 I've quickly re-run the quote. Now it's £9,920 for 19 panels, but they are now improved from 420W up to 440W and IQ8 inverters now instead of IQ7A.
if you do go north, and genuinely have no/little shading, you can probably shave the cost by having that string not have micro inverters, just keep those for the awkward south roof
Thanks for the comment. That's what the local firms are coming back with so far.
I have the same. Because of the size of my array I had to have 2 inverters which have the East/West panes split on different strings and the winter shaded/not shaded on different strings. Micro inverters are great when you have trees or other partial shading, not sure they are as essential if you have solid/full shading from houses etc, the diodes in the panel do the same
What about some panels on the gable - the adjacent house is set back
Thanks for the comment.
That looks like a good option!
Presumably the kWp is just all the panels added up and not the actual peak output? Your DNO might raise its eyebrows at 8kWp being connected to the grid, unless it takes into account positioning.
Yes, the theoretical maximum is a lot due to the number of panels, but due to the orientation it's highly unlikely to get close to the peak.
DNO limitations could be a factor nonetheless.
The DNO will be concerned with the inverter capacity not the panel capacity which is why inverters are usually undersized for the peak of the panels (i.e 8.2kwh panels with a 6kwh inverter). They would be more likely to apply export limmiation rather then refusal though.
@@Sortitoutman yeah but how does that work with the individual micro inverters?
@@SimonRGates I believe the enphase microinverters used by heatable are capable of 366w each. 20 of them will be 7.32kW, so needing a G99.
Did you get to look at any mini wind turbines?
They're pointless in residential situations because they provide so little power. Solar all the way and download cheap energy into the battery when the wind blows (if your tariff allows it, Octopus Agile does).
@@eddyd8745 are you saying that tariffs won’t allow energy from mini home wind turbines, that’s strange, why ?.
Wind turbines only make sense if you can have them higher that buildings in the area or live on a farm and based on his house this is not possible. Small win d turbines and expensive and do not generate their quoted output and also brake as the do not have the built on protection that the commercial turbines have installed
@@Sean_S1000 I was talking about the ones that sit on the ridge of the roof.
@@KavanOBrienResidential wind generation is a joke and somewhat of a con. If you do your research on YT for ppl in the UK you'll see why.
You can export excess wind power under Seg, but generating enough is an unlikely scenario
Hey dude, I messaged back on Gray dose solar. I have watched a couple of your videos and come up with a short any easy answer for you.
you made a mistake with cutting off your gas, I commend how you did it good man but that's not my point. My point is you now have a very large whole to fill with your solar system. and you do not want to under size this.
cheapest solution i can see is, get the largest sized panels on your roof as you can 455- 550+. it really helps on cloudy days!
Can you put some in your garden? yes then do it!
Go for the givenergy hybrid system then add 2 batteries on yourself they are basically plug and play I wish I did this, would have saved myself £5k.
What is you estimated usage with everything now?
Thanks for the comment.
Usage before HP was 2500kWh.
HP is forecast to use another 3000kWh, but so far it's looking like we'll come in well under that.
I've budgeted 5500kWh anyway to try and cover our total consumption.
@@UpsideDownFork I would still suggest going for the larger battery.
Especially if you're going to give back to the grid during peak time to make the payback shorter.
@@grantmidd Yeah, because of my usage profile i'm calculating 15kWh battery capacity is probably the optimal for our usage profile.
@@UpsideDownFork I'm sure you have looked into them but a givenergy hybrid plug and play battery system is great for saving money. you buy the system you want without the batteries and add them you thousands cheaper yourself after.
Or adding another battery to that system is also just as simple.
I did this of this but it works out really well for me to have the Octopus intelligent flux tariff over a bigger battery with low night rates because u produce more than i use.
I use 6k I produce 8k.
Have you also considered a small wind turbine if you don't have enough south facing roof space?
It's best to do it at the same time due to the wiring to the consumer units.
@@grantmidd Thanks for the comments, it's good to keep me thinking!
It looks to be the case with many of the 48V DC battery packs that they can be added very easily by the consumer, rather than needing a professional to do so. Certainly for sunsynk as well, I have heard of many people going this way.
I've definitely steered away from givenergy due to their low charge and discharge rates and how slowly they ramp up to their maximum, comparative to the competition.
In my case from the quotes i've had, it works out slightly cheaper to get an electrician to do it and reclaim the VAT than to buy the battery myself.
A wind turbine wouldn't work here due to being packed into a close and surrounded by trees, there just isn't any wind to speak of most of the time.
I investigated a 1kW as well as a 200w domestic wind turbine, but the wind speeds they need to function, let alone produce any meaningful power indicates that they are useful for those people living in very exposed areas, like hilltops or seafronts, but for the rest of us, wind turbines seem to be pointless right now.
just tried the Heatable online tool for a property i'm thinking of buying and idea why they can only quote up to a max of 20 panels ?, the tool actually predicted I could get 22 on the rear (east facing) and 8 on the front (west facing)(as I excluded a third of the front area due to pitched dormer). also is it true that the IQ7 micro inverters are not heavily affected by shading as maybe a quarter of the rear roof has a tall tree from 20 feet away giving some shade ?
Heatable can accommodate more than 20 panels but you have to contact them for a proposal.
Very roughly, each additional panel will add approx £500.
DNO Approval tops out at 20 panels for a D99 you`d have to do a larger generation application costs
@@Sortitoutman G98 is up to 3.68kW and G99 up to 17kW.
I don’t think Givenenergy do an 11kwh battery and if it’s two 5.5kwh units in parallel then their depth of discharge is less than 100% I think.
They do a 13.5kW battery
@@Piccyman1 that's the AIO AC setup only not a DC battery system
they do a 5.2 which is 80% so only 4.something usable. the 8.2 is 100% usage (its more like a 10kwh inside). I think the 8.2 is the most cost effectve per kwh, but if you need more than that, the 9.5 is not far behind.
@@munirshafi2647 why would anyone not want the AIO system, it’s excellent
Just remember when you say 'x' panels will cover my entire yearly usage.
That usage is spread across day and night obviously, the Web site 'savings' calculators can be deceptive.
Also, having a single inverter (GE 5k for example) with say 2*9.5kwh batteries.
While total storage is 19.x kwH, the inverter can only use a single battery at a time.
So the max discharge of each battery is 3600W (same as inverter) but you won't get 7200w due to it working with a single battery at a time..
Thanks for the comment!
Your answer at the end is correct, but the inverter doesn’t ’work with a single battery at a time’, the batteries are daisy chained together on the GivEnergy inverter and sees and reports them as a single large battery. The input and output is limited to the inverter limits - e.g. 3.6kW. Multiple inverters can increase your throughput but there are other potential issues with this setup like cross charging on the newer inverters.
@@geoffreycoan Beg your pardon then Geoff.
Either or, if higher wattage is required, then multi-inverters needed, and last I looked it wasn't recommended by GE.
@@stuartburns8657you are absolutely correct, multi-inverters are not a recommended by GivEnergy. My installers designed my system with two GE 5kW hybrid inverters, and it was only afterwards that I found (in the GivEnergy website FAQ’s) that this isn’t a recommended design.
Having said that, my two gen 1 hybrid inverters work absolutely perfectly together, they both charge from solar and they both detect and respond to house load - sharing it between them. I’m very happy with this config even though it’s not recommended.
I think most of the multi-inverter issues GE have are with AC coupled inverters. There is a multi-inverter control box “coming” at some point …
Hsave you looked at ITS?
No, a quick Google shows them to be a wholesaler rather than an installer? Am I looking at the wrong ITS?
No, they are a supplier but have a list of installers around the country. Basically you can get the kit from them and sub-contract the installation to your preffered installer then you get 0% VAT on the equipment as well.
@@chrisswallow3734 Thanks for the tip!
Can you make your spreadsheet available to me ?
Sure, send me an email 👍
Thank you
Your address is showing at 9:29. Is that a mistake or an Easter egg for us attentive fans? 😂
And again at 10:30
Thanks for the comment. Don't tell my wife I slipped up! 🫣😂
Don't discount micro inverters. A hybrid inverter has a lifespan of max 12 years. Enphase have a 25year warranty. You could potentially have to buy 2 or even 3 hybrid inverters. Some people also view that having 5+kw of AC piped into your home is safer than 5+kw of DC. Just a thought before you commit.
Thanks for the comment. I have been thoroughly investigating microinverters. On the surface they do seem like the ultimate solution, however digging deeper has revealed the following to me.
- Severely limits battery options if you want it all in one.
- Significantly increases battery costs
- Enphase do seem to be one of the better ones, but stories about their warranty process depict a complete shambles. One failure on a roof of 22 panels is not unheard of, well within the warranty period, but scaffold etc is not always sufficiently covered. Some installers digging into their own pockets to subsidise the enphase warranty. I'm not sure how much of this is internet scaremongering, but there are legitimately solar installers who have turned away from enphase after some of these issues.
- Clipping during the peak production months.
- The claims of earlier start up and later shut down appear to be overstated from several independent tests. Especially against modern hybrid inverters which seem to now have lower start up voltage and better MPPT optimisation.
I plan to best protect a hybrid inverter by fitting it in our nice and dry garage as opposed to the loft and by ensuring it has the correct surge protection as heat and grid voltage fluctuations are cited as the 2 most common causes of hybrid inverter failure.
If and when the hybrid inverter does fail, it will be a very simple and easy job to replace if sited in the garage.
I might be completely wrong on all counts but that's what my research seems to indicate.
Great video
The market will have moved on from Hybrids in the next few years.
Micros are the only way to go (in my experience).
The safety element alone is worth it, plus you’ll get full panel independence.
I get 20 calls a month from some poor sod who’s got a string system which is down/broken or simply not working.
Re your battery question, there is no limitation when fitting an AC coupled battery, if anything it provides even more power as you can pull from the panels and battery separately, you’re not clipped by the inverters max rating.
Final final one -
Clipping on micros in the UK is basically unheard of. If you can get a panel above 300w on any of those roofs in the UK for more than a few days a year I’ll eat my hat.
@@PVOK232 Thanks for the comment, real world experience is invaluable!
Do you notice any trends or a common denominator when it comes to broken down string systems?
@@UpsideDownFork The guy is just peddling anecdotes. Ignore him.
After 27 years in the UK solar industry...
1. There is a critical mistake in your spreadsheet, you put the price per kWh installed but haven't divided it by the shortest key warranty length, if you I'm going to have to replace key components like batteries, inverter and panels in a relatively short period that's going to change the price per kWh, look at the full lifetime cost, not just the purchase cost. You are making a classic first time buyer mistake.
2. Don't go with local companies, they really only buying off two wholesalers: Midsummer or Segen, same Chinese forced labour panels, local companies don't have the resources to survive recessions, industry downturns, key personnel leaving etc so they go bust pretty quickly, most don't seem to survive longer than three to five years in this industry - big purchases should be with big companies, would you buy your new car from an unknown manufacturer?
3. Make sure the companies are FCA, HIES and EVPS protected, again only the big companies are. Big companies get big by experience, and lots of satisfied customers before you.
4. Look for a minimum of a 15-year battery warranty with swappable cells, otherwise you could end up have to replace the whole unit in somewhere between 5 to 15 years, that will cost thousands again, big mistake.
5. Don't make your customer service judgement based on dealing with one guy, what happens if he leaves the company next week?, look at their trust pilot reviews to get a general view, call their customer services number see how quickly they respond.
6. There are panels on the UK market which are attuned to work in low light levels and don't need direct sunshine, they just work on daylight so work perfectly fine on north or northeast or northwest roof. Small clue they're not the Chinese forced labour panels which by the way are optimised to work in hotter climates than the UK closer to the equator.
7. Don't go to order aggregators, basically middleman which work between the customer and these little local companies, again they will push up the price.
8. Did you check that the inverter has been sized correctly, no point having a 7 kw array with a 3.68 kw inverter, total waste of time, you have a 3.68 kw solar system.
9. Don't go to buying groups, especially so-called council backed ones, this is a commercial transaction - nothing to do with the council, you think you're getting a discount but the 'winning' companies are just cutting corners to get the price down plus they have to deal with a tsunami of orders and then business dries up afterwards so they rushed to throw the cheapest panel they can find on your roof because they have a mountain of orders for a short period, then loads of customer service problems, then they go bust, seen it time and time again.
10. Don't listen to so-called armchair experts, neighbours, relatives, friends, people have only had one solar system installed, because they only have the experience of their own one and only solar system, the roof and energy consumption will be different to yours and they might think they have the best but they're driving a Ford and they've never driven a Rolls Royce. Would you get advice from a surgeon who has only performed one operation?
11. Don't buy your solar system from an energy company, they are the gamekeeper, they make their money by selling you your energy, in my experience most of them are grudgingly in the solar industry to look green and keep the spectre of windwall taxes away and it is not core to their business. Octopus Energy is owned by Octopus Capital, basically a venture capital company, which literally says they say have tentacles in different areas, last time I checked Octopus Energy turned over £9.4 billion a year and they made a £11 million loss on their solar business, which business is the most important to them?
12. Everything is fine until it goes wrong, who is backing and protecting the warranties? What happens when the system comes to the end of it's life? how's it going to get removed? Who is going to support the warranties if the installer goes bust? This industry is the classic buy cheap by twice, spend a little more get a lot more. We are doing a good trade in removing and replacing 10y+ old solar systems from people's roofs because a key component died, a panel or an inverter and no you can't just pop a new inverter on a system which has got an incompatible voltage with the new generation of inverters and companies aren't making 10-year-old inverters, or have a warehouse full of new old stock 250w panels which have been out of production for a decade... oh and we find the original local installer has 95 out of 100 times gone bust.