I wonder why you are so late on micro inverters. There is also micro inverters from Deye, Hoymiles when each micro inverter can cover 4 PVs. Much faster and safer solution to deploy. Micro inverters can also be fitted inside the loft for easy replacement in the future. At is it is good that you are catching up.
Just wondering why you are using a hybrid inverter with Enphase micro inverters? Surely you could simply use an AC coupled system? Plus, they're cheaper and supposed to last longer. p.s. don't forget the 25 year warranty that Enphase offer.
At 15:30 their is a lie Modern pannels use bypas diodes, so a system with the right inverter (low start voltage) will keep your array running in the shade
@@neok1996 Yes, the system will keep on running, but in degraded state. The diode(s) will stop the entire production of the panel(s) involved. Optimizers and micro-inverters keep the production of said panels going.
Forgot to mention. The enphase IQ7+ have a max output of 315 watts compared to those bi-facial panels max of 420 watts. Yes its common to oversize your panels compared to you inverter but thats a big difference. Also the hybrid interter for the battery installation is a bit useless when all you get from the roof is AC courtesy of the Enphase units
Don't know why Artisan say they don't like DC. When batteries are DC and you can wire DC straight into the battery without losing power going through an inverter!
They also talk as though its new technology, but Microinverters have been around for years and Enphase have been trying to eat into Solar Edge's market share in the US for as long as I can remember, and still failing. These 420-440w REA panels will produce way more in the summer with a standard string inverter and cheap Tigo optimisers (if needed) for shading and panel monitoring. If one Microinverter fails then Enphase will only pay a small contribution to replacing it, and this won't cover the cost of re-erecting the scaffolding to get back up there! Lots of scaremongering that shading on one panel can wipe the entire array out - utter rubbish !!! Obviously not heard of diode bypass!! If one panel is in shade it will not bring down the whole array, unless there was a solar eclipse!!!
Worse than that IQ7+ is 295W output with max 440w input. Would be interesting to see a comparison of the same panel layout using a string inverter vs micro-inverters like these to show in terms of generation through out the day the actual difference, could be the loss per panel of micro-inverters is outweighed by generating more, or if there is an issue with shading of panels which would effect the overall output from a string. There is a HUGE price difference to account for as well using MicroInverters.
A 420 watt STC rated panel are going to be in the 300-330 watt NOCT range and that's going to be in real world perfect conditions so it really won't clip all that much. Getting a more expensive micro inverter probably isn't worth capturing an extra 25 watts a few times a year.
Good to hear. 8 years SolarEdge and 1 of 14 optimisers gone down in January. They don't support fully, no help to get it changed. Enphase for my future projects I think.
@@carlarrowsmith Over 150 solaredge optimizers installed over the last 9 years. Only one DOA but got replaced under warranty. Never had an inverter or optimizer failed. Have been using P300 to S440 and S500B optimizers.
@@veeerzes One installer was telling me he has installed 40 replacement optimisers this year so far. Not uncommon they said to me at SolarEdge support.
"Bi-Facial" solar panels are said to be great on those ground installed setups in places like Alaska and Northern Canada, where more land area is available (and if snow builds up, can be swept off with a broom from ground level easily). Set on angled frames on the ground, the brightly reflected light from surrounding snow, powers the back of the solar panel as the direct Sunlight strikes the front. And remember the colder the air, the higher their efficiency. So as your Solar Panels are "Bi-Facial" and the underside faces a dark clay/concrete tiled rood. For fudge sake wouldn't it have been a great idea to give the tiles a quick brush off first, then slop on a thick coat of High-Gloss White Paint ! That would have to give a very substantial increase in output, surely.
I saw a video where they installed them vertically on the ground, east/west facing. Snow can't accumulate on them, the ground can be used for other things and they appeared to be just as effective, if not better.
you know whats great about those micro inverters, if one fails, you have to put up scaffold/get a picker up there, remove the panel and swap out the module, and better yet, if its 5 years later, you may have to replace all the micro inverters because they aren't cross compatible.
This right here is why I prefer string inverters combined with generic/non-vendor lock/non-communication optimizers, with at most a parallel optimizer reporting system running. Easiest way to ensure that in the best case scenario, I'll just hop up and disconnect the panel and optimizer and replace them, or worst case, I leave them up as long as rest of the string continues to operate normally and the failed optimizers or panels pose no safety (electrical or fire) or production risk.
Exactly. Putting a box of electronics behind a solar panel on a roof, where the panel gets incredibly hot in the Summer, and you have one of these devices for each panel, is the stupidest idea ever - especially because they DON'T WORK. They don't increase power output by any measurable amount, otherwise there would be numerous videos showing a before and after, which prove this. Why aren't these videos on TH-cam?
Hi, watching this video, I’m impressed that you notched out tiles for brackets to properly fit. Be careful, don’t know if concrete or clay tiles but concrete dust is now considered toxic, silicosis, please be aware, thanks.
This is your best video yet. Nobody else on TH-cam has shown the tiles being lifted up and how you attach the rail mounts to the roof. I know that you're an electrical channel but when it comes to solar it's the roofing part that we need to know about.
What would be great is a tool designed specifically for grinding a channel in the back of the tiles…using a grinding wheel and the torque placed on the wrist, the dust/particles that fly off, as well as the mess it can make is not good…
Haven't you heard of bypass diodes? Modern panels have usually 3 bypass diodes, string configurations handles shading very good, no need for optimizers or micro inverters. I will guarantee that optimizers and micro inverters WILL fail before the panels stops producing. A string inverter can easily be replaced in an hour while a fault under a panel on the roof could be very labour intensive...
Nah. For stationary shadow like chimneys or higher roofs perhaps. But for diffuse shadows like rustling leaves solely relying on bypass diodes is inferior to micro inverters or optimizers. Not to forget that once you have a system at varying gradients, string inverters can start struggling ( SMA puts this point at +- >15degrees).
@@jacobherrie6286It depends on how much diffuse shadow is present on the panels, the MPPT will take the best solution if using the bypass diodes or not, the performance difference shouldn't be particularly higher to be worth it, optimizers and micro inverters add cost and possibly maintenance in a difficult to reach position.
Those diodes works in very specific configuration and are very far from magic you try to portrait here. Those diodes are there for single reason - if one (or more) cell(s) will fail, then bypass diode will bypass, say third of the panel. usually cells are arranged in longer string - there and back, so two strings. Those diodes have nothing to do with shading - it may help, but it is unlikely, as shading does not drop voltage enough to get diode into bypass, so current will drop. Panel performance can be easiest described as voltage is close to constant and current changes by amount of light. So, no diode does absolutely nothing for shading. Your idea is wrong and should take lesson in electronics and physics, as you clearly lacking in both.
@@WizardNumberNext there has been a number of tests that shows very little difference with shading with or without optimizers. Some might be at 3% gain with optimizers, that's not worth it, and I bet that they will fail before the panels does. Keep it simple, use string inverter instead is my tip. And what I have done😎
Interesting video - thanks! I’ve recently had IQ8MC micro inverters and 435W panels fitted to my roof. The one big disappointment with the installation was the micro inverters are only able to output 320W peak power (despite panels being 435W) and the clipping is very obvious when you look at the power curve on a sunny day. I heard that there’s a trade off, as more powerful microinverters have a higher starting voltage (or something like that), so they wouldn’t perform so well on a cloudy day. But still, I feel a bit despondent about the clipping. The system can only achieve 75% of the peak power I was quoted for.
Forget about the peak power, its not relevant in the end. Electricity in those peak times is worthless anyway since everyone is producing more than enough. I recently installed 37 IQ8MC on my roof and they produced 12W per panel on a cloudy day when the panel was completely covered with snow. Duration of production is key, not peak power.
That's kind of terrible, my 445W south-facing bifacial panels output 500-510W at noon when it's 5°C, they eventually get hot and settle around 470-480 after 20 minutes. Granted I have them mounted 2 meters high with nothing underneath but on 24°C days they output 420W for 3 hours straight. They run on an AP-System EZ-1M, first Watt at 5:45, last watt at 20:15 and that's with no view of the sun after 14:30. If you're selling electricity to the utilities, I would seriously consider swapping the inverters. If you're only running your home and a battery (no EV charging), it's not going to make a difference.
@@mresch3950 Rubbish. Peak power is very important - if you have batteries, you are charging them. If you are using multiple heavy loads - hot water tank, oven, you need 6kW minimum. "everyone is producing more than enough". On what planet? You recently wasted how much on 37 micro inverters? Care to tell us? What was the increase in output? Oh wait, you don't mention that. Nor do the manufacturers! Where are the videos from the manufacturers, PROVING an increase in output, and an increase in output that justifies the cost of the micro inverters?
We have Enphase micro inverters on our array. You're more than welcome to ask anything you like about our experience. We've had 1 fail over 9 years. System kept producing whilst faulty unit was replaced. VERY happy with them.
As a fellow installer the micro inverters are way better and more practical. Optimizer (dc) systems only produce what the worst panels is. Micros make every panel produce individually
Can you talk about the burden involved in getting the micro inverter fixed? Also, do you have any information on how the micro inverters may have reduced the energy available, e.g. by having a minimum activation power or through inefficiency? I would have thought it would be better to have the individual inverters inside the loft so they are easier to access, but maybe that creates new problems.
All these videos are very informative but it also demonstrates a problem , there are so many options and opinions that any punter such as me finds it very hard to know what we should be using . Of course everyone’s property and circumstances are different but in short it’s a nightmare , an expensive one to get wrong at that .
@@hughmarcus1 my folks had a pushy salesman round the house. He generated a proposal on opensolar; for a system cost of £13k they could expect a £600k saving over the next 30 years 😂. He also had an allowance to give "preferred" customers another 10% off but that discount just happened to be expiring the following day.
Hi. I was particularly interested in this video as I’ve recently had a Heatable installation. I found them to be very good to deal with despite them getting a fair amount of stick on social media 😀. I guess a lot of people think the bifacial panel angle is just marketing bs. Heatable told me who would do the install if I went ahead. Getting to meet the installers before committing was important to me as one of my concerns was buying from a uk-wide business who often outsource the installation (the installers were great by the way). My system is performing well and I’m very happy with it so far. I went for a GivEnergy AIO battery and specified the IQ8AC microinverters. My thinking was that as I’m on the south coast (Bournemouth) we get a bit more sun than the uk average and I wanted a higher (360W) AC output than the IQ7+ in your video. This is already giving me 1kW extra generation from my 14 panels when the inverters are maxed out. Time will tell if this was a good choice in winter or on dull days when they may not generate so much (so I’m told). I enjoyed the video anyway. Thanks 😀
The massive downside about micro inverters you fail to mention is the £170 cost per one! Vs say the 5kW GivEnergy inverter for £1100 that can do 20x400w panels for 8kw panels oversized. Or a basic inverter for half that price if anyone is going inverter only with no battery! The 2nd massive downside is the max 320w - you can now get Aiko panels that are 450w - every new panel out there is over 420w. Some large size commercial panels go up to 600w. Why would you want 320w clipping on 400w panels. Inverters lose about 2% in efficiency at 100% power - so why throw away 25-30% power! The 3rd problem is if one fails. The 4th issue is DC panels going into a DC battery do that without going through an inverter - much better when you want to be filling the battery on low light days. Can see why Enphase was a $40bn USA company with massive profits on the stockmarket - the markup on those inverters would make Apple jealous - probably cost $20 to make in China. And yes, £170 on a single inverter is expensive when panels cost £65 in UK. See ITS technologies / Midsummer Wholesale What was interesting in the video was the quick side-to-side comparison of the bifacial panel vs the single sided - I'm impressed!
@@nnnnn8173 What does "works well" mean? Do they give you more electricity? Are they worth an extra 200W of solar panel (£60 for a 400W panel in the UK at August 2024)? No, of course they aren't. They are a huge con, multiple electronic devices that have no fans and are behind incredibly hot panels during the Summer, what if one goes wrong on your roof? £2,000 for scaffolding just to change one over. A solar panel is far less likely to stop working than a micro inverter. They are such a waste of money. Where is the advantage in having them?
Not sure why one failing is a problem, had an inverter fail after 3 months so 2 weeks or so with no power, one inverter fails you still get power from the rest. EEV blog has done a few videos on his micro inverters
One thing you lose from putting a home battery outside is heat! Most ppl tell their battery to charge in winter at night on cheap off-peak electric and the inverter might lose 5% electricity in the AC-DC process of filling the battery. Put it outside you're contributing to global warming vs inside where the waste heat is heating your house!!! Also IP65 or whatever - it's going to be more reliabel indoors than outdoor! Also DC batteries don't like freezing conditions, or 35C - put a home battery outside, in -10C in winter it will throttle it's charging to 50% or less! Not good charging off-peak in winter when it's going to be below freezing! And it won't like being 35C in the sun in summer! Put it in a utility room that's 15-20C all year and it's going to be well happy and last longer!
@@narrowboatlongpod4176 but lithium batteries prefer the temperatures humans like. 10-30C. They throttle power below 0C and high temperatures damage them. Therefore a garage or utility room is better for the battery life
You are right, but new PAS specifications limit the areas inside where people should be installing now. Such as lofts, under the stairs in cupboards, habitable rooms, emergency exits etc etc. Ideal place is in a garage really.
@@spjelectrical2940I'd be interested to know if an LFP battery system has ever caught fire. Not scooters or EV bikes using the standard lithium cobalt manganese chemistry. But a LFP battery fire. And more than just the electrics going "pfft" and a bit of burnt plastic. Ie. TVs are electric but we don't put them outside!
Micro inverters for a small, completely unshaded and roof mounted system is not a good optimisation imo. For the additional cost of the inverters (£/wh) you could just fit another couple of panels that will massively outperfom any advantage otherwise. The less stuff you put on the roof the better imo, the costs to do "roofing stuff" are now the biggest cost of the system. When i worked out the costs for my system i got a better ROI for putting panels on a low flat roof i could therefore self install without scfolding, even though that location was less optimum in terms of insolation. The labour costs to put panels on my main roof, high with difficult access but unshaded and south facing) pretty much would have doubled the overall cost, whereas the insolation reduction from the non-optimum position is actually only approx 1/4 Micro inverters are also always going to cost more per Wh as each inverter carries an overhead per wh harvested, ie the casing, mounting, connectors, and of course the internal power and control electronics. For example, it costs pretty much the same to drive a single mosfet in a DCDC as it does to drive 10 in parallel, so your electronics cost per Wh is increased when you compare to a single, large high power device. When you start to look at long strings of panels then you also start to see a cabling cost save on larger systems as you are carrying your power at a higher average voltage (240VACrms vs say 400Vdc). So at 20amps (typical max continuous MC4 connector rating), you are talking about being able to carry 8kW, vs 4.8kW on the same cable!
@@hughmarcus1 Is peak summer generation more valuable than winter generation? Self-consumption gives a better return, I believe - so winter probably pays better (so long as the configuration actually helps with this scenario)
@hughM9 Your wrong! If you increase the % of the generation of the reverse side by as little as 20%, it would outweigh the efficiency reduction. Example... 1/3 extra hourly generation would make the 0.32% lower efficiency per 1°c higher heat (over 25°c), even at 40°c, panels are still 95% efficient. Basically, increasing 33% of reverse facing faces, would only reduce generation by maximum of 5%! Do your own calculations, then reply when you realise I'm right.
Could you fix the micro invertors INSIDE the roof slope ( or would that be a problem for heat dissipation)? Could save a few maintenance problems down the line if possible.
I'm English doing solar in Australia, we get 2 of them jobs done a day with the alphas and bigger systems on the roof with a crew of 4, criminal that's taken 2 days with that many lads
I suspect Australian roofs are less steep, fewer working at height restrictions than the English. Installs on tin roof are easier and faster than on tiles. That said, we Aussies are known for working harder and more productively than many others.
Fitting to a metal roof is much, much quicker than installing on a tiled roof. Each tile where an anchor sites needs to be properly weatherproofed. The time this takes can vary depending on whether the tile is a plain tile, profiled tile (as in the video) or slate. Plain tiles are the quickest by use of a hook stop, concrete profiled tiles require grinding out which takes a bit longer and slates require cutting and flashing which takes the longest of all. If not done properly for just one fixing, then you have a leak. In addition if the rafter width is 35mm or under (which is common in UK houses built using trusses) then they require reinforcement which adds even more time.
I can confirm that a team of 3 ( 2 roofers and 1 sparky ) installed 2 complete systems per 8 hour day in Adelaide Australia, we do have an advantage of better weather 🙂. The majority of installations were to tiled roofs, and were identical installations with no variations offered by an electrical retailer for a fixed price...
I had a "4kw system" installed under the FIT scheme in 2014. Comprises 16 Solarworld SW250s with Enphase M215 microinverters. Works exceedingly well. A crew of three installed it within 2.5 hours. Four other teams from the same company did much the same and in the same time frame (one was a neighbour who had his installed the same day. The other three installed theirs on my recommendation: my son and two friends. Not one of our microinverters has ever failed. There's been no perceptible degradation over time. Output on our 4kw system has varied from 4.7 to 4.9 megawatts per year. Our consumption has varied, not least do to some construction work and Covid, so it has fluctuated from 4.0 to 5.7 megawatts per year. ROI was seven years: no point in pursuing mis-selling claims with that kind of efficiency. Now in retirement. I'm putting additional panels on our flat-roofed EPDM-covered outbuildings in an EW orientation (with a low inclination due to coastal winds in Thanet which can reach 100mph): this time we will add battery storage: ROI will be 4 years, thanks to Octopus Energy's green tariffs and the fact that the lion's share of our electricity costs are already dealt with by the existing system. Thereafter it will just be a source of profit: not huge but significant and dependable. If our DNO would permit it, I'd do much more, just as commercial firms around us have done, including a firm of accountants with over a hundred panels, a local fitness centre with about the same, our Sainsburys with several hundred, farmers who have covered their barns and houses, a railway maintenance yard with well over a thousand, and so forth. So to what extent are the house builders doing their bit? Don't make me laugh: Some only put up one or two panels on a new house. Others really push the boat out and add three or four. But every new property in some of these developments has a EV charging point. New commercial buildings are putting in sod all. It is scandalous. About time the new Government requires all new buildings to max out the full potential of their roofs to support green energy. One installer, btw, told me that the time it takes to connect a solar panel to a microinverter is about one minute. I'd say that was an exaggeration: From what I've seen, I think it takes about two minutes, including mounting the microinverter itself.
If you get a DC-coupled battery, you save the same amount of space. Instead of having an inverter for the panels, then a rectifier for the battery, then an inverter for the battery, you only need one inverter for the whole system. Our 10kW+10kWh system is just one battery-width wide and 1.7m high. And a good 25cm of that height is a heating pipe passing through the middle.
I would mount all inverters under the first, lowest row of panels. Installation with some short DC extensions from the panels. This will come handy for maintenance e.g. when you have to replace a faulty inverter.
I find that Hoymiles microinverters do much better than Enphase with modern 400+Wp panels. Also with OpenDTU you have a way superior and more privacy minded solution than with crappy phone apps which need a cloud and can go down at any time the manufacturer feels like it.
I installed three 420W panels with IQ7A micro inverters on the roof of my shed a year ago. An easy DIY install for people that know what they're doing.
Great to see another video from y’all. Interesting kit too. Gotta just tell you, one of my neighbours had solar fitted a few weeks ago, I didn’t see it done as the firm was only there one day, three faces of roof all done from ladders !!! Then next day they noticed the gutter hanging off and next house down had hanging tiles missing where they’d clouted them. Finally, Sheila asks me how they’re held on, ‘are they tied because it looks like something over the ridge’?? Sure enough, the cables from the west set don’t enter the roof, they’re pulled tight over the roof hip tiles and under the south set 😖 Not reassuring to see, can’t imagine it’ll last long
Where is the Envoy? This REA Fusion panel is a premium Australian product designed for harsh climates. The front and rear surfaces are bonded "glass on glass" so it should last. There is no plastic backing sheet to peel off /de-laminate over time.
I put I Q7 on my 21x 410 panels, 2 years ago and i haven payed for electric since. 20 kwh of batteries. £800 on excess generation. Having a 9 kwh Air sources pump installed with Sunamp Thermino 150 ePlus. we will see if i can achieve total heating hot water and electricity this time next. One more thing they come on and hour before DC panels and stay on later. I also have them on the North side of the house.
It's pretty hard to say, as there's a fairly wide spread of panel prices, and the bifacial panels aren't the most expensive ones. However the cheapest panels are about £57, and the cheapest bifacial panels are about £71 - so you could say they're 20% more, which matches that performance boost. However the panels are the cheapest part of the install. Those micro-inverters are £175 each, the batteries are a few thousand and the scaffolding and labour add a fair bit too.
@@robinbennett5994 Your right most do but there are some specifically for aluminium, in my experience the problem with carbide tipped saws in hand held devices is that they can kick back and can be dangerous but fine in a bench mounted saw, I owned a business for 25 years cutting aluminium extrusions.
years ago Grey alloy flat roof material was brought in to reflect off flat roofs and omit the use of stones etc that cause issues if walked on. it wouldn’t add much in cost to an installation.
Now that was really useful, long time subscriber and I'm now on that journey to try and understand solar and battery storage for my house. This was the best explanation I've seen so far on the difference between oprimisers and micro-inverters. The things I hadn't twigged was that the latter eliminate the need for the big inverter box on the wall and also that the cables from the roof are then AC only. I've got roughly east / west facing with some shading from chimney but not that much space to put the battery and inverter. Got plenty of space but a lot of it in very hot sun in summer or a really cold blast in winter but with only the battery to worry about I've got a couple of spots might work.🤔 Food for thought, cheers Jordan, Artisans and Heatable.👍👏
I like that this gives us the option to install the old way and the new way. I've got plenty of grinding discs already. But I may actually do just the bottom row the new way as it only that thats visible. Bit like Schrödinger's Cat!
We´ve installed Enphase Microinverters since 8 years ago. We would recommend them over any string inverter any single day. But I am pretty much convinced that a bifacial panel wont do ANY difference in that sort of installation (flush) since it needs reflection from the surface (Albedo).
the main problem is that you have too much solar in the summer & not enough in the winter (maybe 10 times lower?) to keep warm? (20% more power in the summer is fine, but 20% of nearly nothing Nov-Feb = Nothing also)
Design for winter, so more panels (normal panels will do in winter and are 'cheap'). Size your inverter for spring/autumn (max out in summer). With grid capacity as it is, and more people installing solar, selling back to the grid will become less attractive. The cost driver for inverters is capacity, skip all the additions for panel optimization (as they are expensive and will not give sufficient return on investment during winter). You will end up with an installation using more space for the same capacity, but a more level power production over the seasons. And the savings on inverter and optimization will pay for the additional panels.
you also have others companies with microinverters, biggest problem is this if one of them fail client have to pay one more time installation cost for change, but less risk of fire, easier to install. Do you install blitz protection also in england? Germany/Poland/Austria install 16mm PE grounding wire between profiles under panels, and we connect this to main grounding point in house. And on DC solarcable you should cut only 6mm of isolation while mc4 making :D
I fitted solar panels to my garage 5 years ago, panel wattage was 300w. Now i can get 450w bifacial panels of around the same size massively cheaper than my original panels. I'm abit undecided about micro inverters. You might get more efficiency but if one of them breaks or packs up you need a scaffold to remove and replace. Scaffolding is expensive. The main benefit of micro inverters is shading of panels on a string. this no longer such a big issue as alot of panels now feature methods of mitigating shade across a string.
If one goes down, you're down 1 panel / inverter. If a panel fails on a string inverter, you might be just out the panel, or you might be out the string. Also, you might not know where the fault is. Also, I like that it's 240VAC vs 500VDC. A lot safer in my opinion. I've DIY'd 2 enphase 10kw installs, and it's definitely more expensive, but the ease / data is awesome. Their tech support was great as well.
in UK you will get 60-70% of rated peak power output of panel 450W will give you 270W-315W MAX typical power whole year round Microinverter will live quite long Enphase IQ8A have 25 years warranty Be advised most microinverters are dying of too high voltage, not due age or random dying. I have fitted hundreds myself. I have seen exactly 5 dead. One random. 4 died of too high voltage If you have no shading, then skip micros, unless you want to avoid DC. Be advised DC should be avoided only because of DC arc is much harder to stop DC shock is much better, then what they show. I have got over 700V on both hands (plus on one hand, minus on other) from Live panels on roof. It was OK, not particularly fun, but definitely I wasn't screaming. My boss wouldn't know, ig I haven't told him and he was standing right behind me. I do not recommend to test it yourself tough - it is not fun.
@@fgbhrl4907 NOT TRUE One panel going down in string means, bypass diodes are taking over and you are losing one panel. I have seen it with microinverter and panel dropped 1/3 of its rated power.
@@WizardNumberNext I can tell you from real world experience on my own home, that I lost a string (out of 3) because a panel failed. The junction box ended up melting, and the entire string went offline. With a string system without optimizers, I didn't know that the string had gone offline, other than I was generating less than I was expecting. It happened in the winter, so I didn't immediately put two and two together. Probably took 6 months to really notice something was happening.
Yes, but did the micro inverters improve the power output, and if so, by how much, and how much is that worth in money, versus the cost of the pointless micro inverters?
You could always spray the roof white or fit good old radiator backing foil before the panels are fitted! 10-20% increase in efficiency vs. roof tiles?
6:36 "nice and close for the bird protection" means hotter in summer and lower performance. Vertical rails and landscape panels layout means more rising airflow and better cooling of the panels when the sunshines 🌞 😊
I’m confused, micro inverters have been around for around 12 years in the UK, is that deemed new 😅 Bifacial have been around for even longer but obviously at lower cell efficiencies. I’d be interested to know which panel they used to get the 20% difference in output and is that 20% more over a day, week, year or just one moment in time. From the quotes I’ve seen, the REA Fusion (Heatable) and Enphase equipment carries a hefty premium over many other brands and string or optimiser based systems so you’ve got to compare the ROI and the possibility of scaffolding for repair and assess shading issues of course.
Is there any mileage in fitting a UV reflective sheet or panel between the tiles and the panels? Clearly this would be a better option if these panels were to be used as a roofing material - i.e. build UV reflection into the insulation below the sealed panel...
Please just note that the IQ7+ are rated at 290w so great you have fancy panels but during most of the summer months that extra power the panels produce with be clipped by the inverters. Will get a bit more during the winter months admitedly with the bifacing panels but the inverters wont be enough in summer. I have iq7+ and get xlipping already in April with basic 395w panels. Hopefully the customer got a deal on the panels.
Can you walk on top those? They look like they dont hold weight. Looks reallyyy good. Just some jobs require people to walk on solar panels sadly. So if you need your roof worked on or fumigated...idk. Do recommend getting sturdy panels that can hold weight if your putting them on your house.
What should be done by Solar panel manufacturers is create solar panels which are 'roofing rated'. Apart from Tesla tiles they don't make panels which can substitute for long run roofing and insulation paper and possibly insulation. If the cost of roofing was built into the cost of panel installation, given the surface area of a North or South facing roof (hemisphere dependent) low cost lower efficiency panels could be used as well.
The microinverters sound interesting. I would like a video on the real performance of the panels,price and durability. Also why the batteries in the open? It seems that the circuitry is left out in the open with limited protection from the elements. What are the temperature in which the equipment described can operate? Winter -15/20 C, summer +28C
you mentioned its produces DC output? to charge batteries?? how? and does the mini inverter participate in the charging of batteries during the night. (from grid during winter)?
I'd like to see if the third / back layer of cells might pick up more energy if tuned for the infrared to pick up energy from panels and roofing that easily hits 30 - 40 c 135 - 150 f
@artisanelectrics to have better output from bifacial panels try to paint the roof with white paint in the panel zone before placing the panels. !!! should have better results with reflections !!! cheers 😎
If you get extra light reflecting off the roof on to the rear of the panel, why don’t you fit a reflective foil panel directly on to the rear of the panels and increase ten fold the rear reflection.
That bird grille is not going to exclude smaller birds like sparrows and finches. Nor will it keep out mice and rats. It really needs to be solid. With regards to the wifi monitoring, that's all well and good, but I'd prefer something I absolutely know will be working in 20 years' time: a physical panel.
I have bi-facial (Trina 430 N type fitted, with a Tesla powerwall 2 and gateway… since fitted, commissioned and operating, since 4th April last, the system has supplied all our power, and I have not imported any power from the grid, but have exported 145kWh to the grid… Conditions have been reasonable, with some sunny days, but mostly cloudy with the odd break in the clouds, and of course a few days overcast and raining… However, I am over the moon with the system, and now considering adding another battery so I can effectively go ‘off-grid’ during better weather conditions at least…so if saving 50% of my electricity costs overall, and getting the payback for my investment in the system a lot sooner… well pleased 😊 and would recommend the bi-facial panels to anyone…
Or.... you have a bypass diode on your panel ! All the newer panels have one and it comes for free. There are videos out there which show that they render balancers useless.
Hear, hear. All solar panels have had bypass diodes since the 1980s. Micro inverters and optimisers are a complete con and a waste of money, and one more thing to go wrong on your roof, which will cost you a fortune to get fixed, as you will need scaffolding again.
I really hope this technology is better than the others, as I have just signed up to have it installed with heatable. I looked at a website the competition supplied, and all the advantages seemed to point to micro-inverters!
Our first set of 16 solar panels on our East-West facing roof has two Sunny Boy inverters and was installed well over 10 years ago. Our second set was installed in 2019, 14 panels, and Enphase micro inverters. Both systems generate broadly the same amount of electricity. Our first set of panels need cleaning now, and we are wondering about the merit of switching them over to a micro inverter system when we get them cleaned. The Sunny Boy inverters still work so really we should only replace them when they break, it's just that we're a bit suspicious that they are coming to end of life. We haven't had any quotes yet. We're in Leigh on Sea.
Enphase microinverters have a 25 year warranty I believe, I've had them for many years but as someone above said 10 years and more is common, they are rock solid, if it ain't broke, don't fix it as they say! I just re-read what you said, you've got a string setup for one setup and microinverters for the others, I still wouldn't mess with it if its all working. The downside to string arrays is the larger inverter might fail and take them all out (that string I mean), but if its working I'd leave it that way.
I've always been told you shouldn't install any extra equipment in the meter cupboard as this is reserved for the DNO and provider. Is this incorrect??
Microinverters are great - probably the best method of power conversation - but Enphase has power output limitations (see below) compared to other microinverters. So even if you are using bifacial panels, your limiting factor is the microinverter! Please try and be clear and transparent with your viewers. IQ8MC: 325W max AC output IQ8AC: 360W max AC output IQ8HC: 380W max AC output For example, if using IQ8MC microinverters with 435W solar panels, the max AC output would be limited to 325W per panel, even though the panel is rated higher!
I have a question if the micro inverters feed the battery and the house the house is okay but for the battery, you will need to use a lithium battery that complies with the conversion between AC to dc, and in night it will feed back to the home so you need an inverter there am I right?
I'm really interested in seeing some whole-year data for the bifacial panels - I have plenty of space for a 9kWp array, just need to work out the best way to optimise capital vs return (particularly winter performance).
Why hasn’t a company come up with either a paint or a reflective surface that adheres to the roof surface like the reflective insulating material that goes behind radiators, of course outdoor rated this would surly increase the reflective aspect and the efficiency.
Another great video with lots of useful information. I'm not a fan of roof installations but this one has made me want to revisit it so perhaps I will be converted.
I'm a spark but don't know enough about solar to install it - thinking of doing a solar course got sparks. What do you think of the American Market of people doing DIY solar themselves?? There are a few videos online and know someone who had done a solar set up but wants me to check it out, which I'm very uncomfortable doing?
The person operating the reciprocating saw doesn't know how to use a reciprocating saw. For maximum effectiveness you need to keep your material up against the guard.
Those enphase micro inverters are expensive. While they improve efficiency, I’m not convinced the efficiency gain pays dividends to cover the extra cost. Firm numbers to compare would be useful.
Nice to hear the metric system being used :D. I wonder these micro inverters... x of these modules out in the elements? How long do they last what does it cost... Efficiency?
Looks individual inverters is much more scalable solutions. Is this become easier for DIYer to make its own solution scalable and feasible, easier to expand while the harvest result is ideal.
Finally I am trying to get bifacial panels in the UK for a year now. The technology exists but the gatekeepers prevent the better technology in the UK. It is very difficult when you try to hire somebody to do any job. 100% of the companies in the UK try to rip you off and the good ones such as Artisan are not available in specific areas. Bifacial solar PV is so much cheaper than the traditional panels. People need to understand that if they install the old non-bifecial panels they just waste money. Now I see 660w panels in standard dimensions. This is great. Bifecial can be used as a normal setup with an inverter. The micro inverters could potentially put you in more expense if you fail. If there is a solution for micro inverters to be installed away from the roof that would be much better
Interesting to note the bird guard is designed to allow ventilation up behind the panels, would be concerned about the temperature buildup behind the panel given the inverters are there, so would be nice to know the inverter operating temp range
No we haven't. Bi-facials rely on light reaching the rear of the panel. This is by completely clear encapsulation and no white backsheet allowing light through as well as any incidental light coming in round the sides of the array... and reflecting back off the underlying surface. Yes, there will be an increase in production just from the light pass-through but a lot of people are being done by people pushing bi-facials on dark roofing where they simply will not get the additional power claimed. The better manufacturers make this *very* clear in their product specs & data.
How can you say that when they have their own evidence on the performance? I had an install with Heatable just after Christmas and their quote was about the same (sometimes cheaper) but for better kit. If someone offers you a 2012 Mondeo or a 2020 7 Series for less than £100 more, I know which one I’m picking 😂
@@David-ww5bs Hmm, who to trust. The product manufacturer's own statements or a 3rd party selling the product? Yes, that's a difficult one indeed. Note: I'm not saying there won't be additional generation, what I am say though is these things are intended to be mounted in such a way that a decent amount of light gets to the underside. For installations that use surface reflection that surface needs a decent albedo. Dark tiled roof does not. One of the most BS installations I've seen with bifacials, photos provided to me by a friend that is an installer, was recessed into the roof for a sleek flush fitting appearance with a black tray. Claims of extra generation were made there too with simple reference to the maximum additional production figure from the manufacturer. Naturally the installation had 0% chance of ever doing it. The end users usually have no way to verify that the extra production is actually happening and go blissfully unaware. Have you checked your installation by sliding black card under the panels and noting the expected drop in production? I'm guessing not...
@@retrozmachine1189 Yes, I do appreciate they were probably designed for better environments than my slate roof, but Range Rovers being designed for rough terrain doesn’t stop them being the most common 4X4 in London. Granted, bi-facials might not be built for the common domestic roof but my roof is an East/West split and I do believe it’s the bi-facial panels that allow me to pick up more light as the sun moves round in the day. I must add, if they were coming out at £,000s more then I may not be as convinced but if I can have additional cells on the back for the same price as your standard Jinkos and Trinas, then my argument is simply - why not?
They might only output 349w but how often in the UK would PV's generate at it's full power, plus you'll never have to worry about panel degradation over time.
Micro inverters are in the technology but I don't think they're as versatile as having a straight DC system with optimizers. And that's a lot of micro inverters to upgrade at a later date plus there's heat issues on the roof so it kind of makes sense to keep the large amount of the electronics out of the heat. But it's definitely an option. And I don't know if things have changed but there at one time was no consideration for using them in grid down situation I would hope that might've changed but it does complicate the process a lot.
Would like to see more side-by-side comparisons of bifacial panels - a 20% gain on top of 420w panels is HUGE in the solar industry where people talk about 1-2% gains normally between panels.
Wish you had included some footage and walkthrough of the the equipment that the panels all connect to , must be some kind of controller which also connects the panels up to an app as shown for monitoring purposes
I keep debating whether to get solar panels. After a divorce, I'm not sure what I'm doing regarding staying put or moving yet - but if I decide to stay put, I might consider it. That same system in the video seems ideal for me (personally), and I think you should make it a standard package!
Would it not be pertinent to put some sort of reflective panels under the PV panels - stainless steel sheets or white plastic boarding for example!? Also, on the battery, could an enclosure be placed over it to hide it from prying eyes, without it leading to problems with cooling etc!?
It should be noted that Givenergy advises that you still install a string inverter even if you have micro inverters, if connecting to one of their batteries. Which is a bit of a shame.
![[MV] A leap of faith...ความเชื่อใจครั้งสุดท้าย (From "Petrichor the series")](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/U1piZH2CNXA/mqdefault.jpg)
Make sure to check out the Heatable website to find your best local installers 👊 - heatable.co.uk/solar
I wonder why you are so late on micro inverters. There is also micro inverters from Deye, Hoymiles when each micro inverter can cover 4 PVs. Much faster and safer solution to deploy. Micro inverters can also be fitted inside the loft for easy replacement in the future. At is it is good that you are catching up.
Just wondering why you are using a hybrid inverter with Enphase micro inverters? Surely you could simply use an AC coupled system? Plus, they're cheaper and supposed to last longer. p.s. don't forget the 25 year warranty that Enphase offer.
At 15:30 their is a lie
Modern pannels use bypas diodes, so a system with the right inverter (low start voltage) will keep your array running in the shade
@@neok1996 Yes, the system will keep on running, but in degraded state. The diode(s) will stop the entire production of the panel(s) involved. Optimizers and micro-inverters keep the production of said panels going.
Ben's team are great.. we had our system done by Heatable.
Forgot to mention. The enphase IQ7+ have a max output of 315 watts compared to those bi-facial panels max of 420 watts. Yes its common to oversize your panels compared to you inverter but thats a big difference. Also the hybrid interter for the battery installation is a bit useless when all you get from the roof is AC courtesy of the Enphase units
Don't know why Artisan say they don't like DC. When batteries are DC and you can wire DC straight into the battery without losing power going through an inverter!
They also talk as though its new technology, but Microinverters have been around for years and Enphase have been trying to eat into Solar Edge's market share in the US for as long as I can remember, and still failing. These 420-440w REA panels will produce way more in the summer with a standard string inverter and cheap Tigo optimisers (if needed) for shading and panel monitoring. If one Microinverter fails then Enphase will only pay a small contribution to replacing it, and this won't cover the cost of re-erecting the scaffolding to get back up there! Lots of scaremongering that shading on one panel can wipe the entire array out - utter rubbish !!! Obviously not heard of diode bypass!! If one panel is in shade it will not bring down the whole array, unless there was a solar eclipse!!!
Worse than that IQ7+ is 295W output with max 440w input. Would be interesting to see a comparison of the same panel layout using a string inverter vs micro-inverters like these to show in terms of generation through out the day the actual difference, could be the loss per panel of micro-inverters is outweighed by generating more, or if there is an issue with shading of panels which would effect the overall output from a string. There is a HUGE price difference to account for as well using MicroInverters.
since you are getting AC from the microinverters dont you need an inverter at the battery to change it to DC to charge the battery?
A 420 watt STC rated panel are going to be in the 300-330 watt NOCT range and that's going to be in real world perfect conditions so it really won't clip all that much. Getting a more expensive micro inverter probably isn't worth capturing an extra 25 watts a few times a year.
10 years and counting on our Enphase inverters, zero problems
We've had ours for 5 years under the hot Australian sun, still good.
Good to hear. 8 years SolarEdge and 1 of 14 optimisers gone down in January. They don't support fully, no help to get it changed. Enphase for my future projects I think.
16 enphase invertors . No issues in 9 years
@@carlarrowsmith Over 150 solaredge optimizers installed over the last 9 years. Only one DOA but got replaced under warranty. Never had an inverter or optimizer failed. Have been using P300 to S440 and S500B optimizers.
@@veeerzes One installer was telling me he has installed 40 replacement optimisers this year so far. Not uncommon they said to me at SolarEdge support.
"Bi-Facial" solar panels are said to be great on those ground installed setups in places like Alaska and Northern Canada, where more land area is available (and if snow builds up, can be swept off with a broom from ground level easily). Set on angled frames on the ground, the brightly reflected light from surrounding snow, powers the back of the solar panel as the direct Sunlight strikes the front. And remember the colder the air, the higher their efficiency.
So as your Solar Panels are "Bi-Facial" and the underside faces a dark clay/concrete tiled rood. For fudge sake wouldn't it have been a great idea to give the tiles a quick brush off first, then slop on a thick coat of High-Gloss White Paint ! That would have to give a very substantial increase in output, surely.
I saw a video where they installed them vertically on the ground, east/west facing. Snow can't accumulate on them, the ground can be used for other things and they appeared to be just as effective, if not better.
Or some mirror type panels fixed to the tiles underneath the solar panels 🤔
Can I put some reflective material on the group, e.g. tin foil/ mirror so to capture more?
I have an detached garage and I can put this on test.
Nice idea for a follow-up video💡 how much more power can these panels generate if installed on a reflective surface (in the UK)
vertical bifacial panels use alot less space then normal panels
vertical panels are cooled much better the normal panels
you know whats great about those micro inverters, if one fails, you have to put up scaffold/get a picker up there, remove the panel and swap out the module, and better yet, if its 5 years later, you may have to replace all the micro inverters because they aren't cross compatible.
Yes, exactly. ❤
This right here is why I prefer string inverters combined with generic/non-vendor lock/non-communication optimizers, with at most a parallel optimizer reporting system running.
Easiest way to ensure that in the best case scenario, I'll just hop up and disconnect the panel and optimizer and replace them, or worst case, I leave them up as long as rest of the string continues to operate normally and the failed optimizers or panels pose no safety (electrical or fire) or production risk.
@@shahzebatiq1what brand would that be? I wanted to go for Tigo, mainly for optimization, but maybe use also the other features
i bet they are not too difficult to repair ..........probably the capacitors that go first
Exactly. Putting a box of electronics behind a solar panel on a roof, where the panel gets incredibly hot in the Summer, and you have one of these devices for each panel, is the stupidest idea ever - especially because they DON'T WORK. They don't increase power output by any measurable amount, otherwise there would be numerous videos showing a before and after, which prove this. Why aren't these videos on TH-cam?
Hi, watching this video, I’m impressed that you notched out tiles for brackets to properly fit. Be careful, don’t know if concrete or clay tiles but concrete dust is now considered toxic, silicosis, please be aware, thanks.
concrete dust is NOT considered toxic. anything is toxic if you eat/breath it too much,... even air. ;-)
@@drzavahercegbosnaponosna5974 Correct, he probably meant to say hazardous. And silicosis has been a thing for decades.
This is your best video yet. Nobody else on TH-cam has shown the tiles being lifted up and how you attach the rail mounts to the roof. I know that you're an electrical channel but when it comes to solar it's the roofing part that we need to know about.
You need to watch a few more TH-cam videos then. 🤦♂️
There are actually quite a lot of YT videos showing the application of the brackets .
What would be great is a tool designed specifically for grinding a channel in the back of the tiles…using a grinding wheel and the torque placed on the wrist, the dust/particles that fly off, as well as the mess it can make is not good…
And why is there no silver sarking under the tiles to get an extra waterproof layer and reflectivity ?
Haven't you heard of bypass diodes?
Modern panels have usually 3 bypass diodes, string configurations handles shading very good, no need for optimizers or micro inverters.
I will guarantee that optimizers and micro inverters WILL fail before the panels stops producing.
A string inverter can easily be replaced in an hour while a fault under a panel on the roof could be very labour intensive...
Nah.
For stationary shadow like chimneys or higher roofs perhaps.
But for diffuse shadows like rustling leaves solely relying on bypass diodes is inferior to micro inverters or optimizers.
Not to forget that once you have a system at varying gradients, string inverters can start struggling ( SMA puts this point at +- >15degrees).
@@jacobherrie6286It depends on how much diffuse shadow is present on the panels, the MPPT will take the best solution if using the bypass diodes or not, the performance difference shouldn't be particularly higher to be worth it, optimizers and micro inverters add cost and possibly maintenance in a difficult to reach position.
Those diodes works in very specific configuration and are very far from magic you try to portrait here.
Those diodes are there for single reason - if one (or more) cell(s) will fail, then bypass diode will bypass, say third of the panel.
usually cells are arranged in longer string - there and back, so two strings.
Those diodes have nothing to do with shading - it may help, but it is unlikely, as shading does not drop voltage enough to get diode into bypass, so current will drop.
Panel performance can be easiest described as voltage is close to constant and current changes by amount of light.
So, no diode does absolutely nothing for shading. Your idea is wrong and should take lesson in electronics and physics, as you clearly lacking in both.
@@WizardNumberNext the voltage of the solar array is of course regulated by the MPPT or it wouldn't be able to find the maximum power point.
@@WizardNumberNext there has been a number of tests that shows very little difference with shading with or without optimizers.
Some might be at 3% gain with optimizers, that's not worth it, and I bet that they will fail before the panels does.
Keep it simple, use string inverter instead is my tip.
And what I have done😎
Interesting video - thanks! I’ve recently had IQ8MC micro inverters and 435W panels fitted to my roof. The one big disappointment with the installation was the micro inverters are only able to output 320W peak power (despite panels being 435W) and the clipping is very obvious when you look at the power curve on a sunny day. I heard that there’s a trade off, as more powerful microinverters have a higher starting voltage (or something like that), so they wouldn’t perform so well on a cloudy day. But still, I feel a bit despondent about the clipping. The system can only achieve 75% of the peak power I was quoted for.
Forget about the peak power, its not relevant in the end. Electricity in those peak times is worthless anyway since everyone is producing more than enough. I recently installed 37 IQ8MC on my roof and they produced 12W per panel on a cloudy day when the panel was completely covered with snow. Duration of production is key, not peak power.
That's kind of terrible, my 445W south-facing bifacial panels output 500-510W at noon when it's 5°C, they eventually get hot and settle around 470-480 after 20 minutes. Granted I have them mounted 2 meters high with nothing underneath but on 24°C days they output 420W for 3 hours straight. They run on an AP-System EZ-1M, first Watt at 5:45, last watt at 20:15 and that's with no view of the sun after 14:30.
If you're selling electricity to the utilities, I would seriously consider swapping the inverters. If you're only running your home and a battery (no EV charging), it's not going to make a difference.
@@mresch3950 Rubbish. Peak power is very important - if you have batteries, you are charging them. If you are using multiple heavy loads - hot water tank, oven, you need 6kW minimum. "everyone is producing more than enough". On what planet? You recently wasted how much on 37 micro inverters? Care to tell us? What was the increase in output? Oh wait, you don't mention that. Nor do the manufacturers! Where are the videos from the manufacturers, PROVING an increase in output, and an increase in output that justifies the cost of the micro inverters?
We have Enphase micro inverters on our array. You're more than welcome to ask anything you like about our experience. We've had 1 fail over 9 years. System kept producing whilst faulty unit was replaced. VERY happy with them.
Sounds like you have a great system on your hands! Hopefully, we are going to keep installing these from now on.
As a fellow installer the micro inverters are way better and more practical. Optimizer (dc) systems only produce what the worst panels is. Micros make every panel produce individually
I have a new build. Would you recommend installing a roof with solar, integrated set up or solar tiles(UK)? I like this system.
Can you talk about the burden involved in getting the micro inverter fixed? Also, do you have any information on how the micro inverters may have reduced the energy available, e.g. by having a minimum activation power or through inefficiency? I would have thought it would be better to have the individual inverters inside the loft so they are easier to access, but maybe that creates new problems.
@@hamcheese9169 I thought optimizers are exactly for used for the reason to bypass the worst performing panel
If using biface panels - would it make them even better if you paint the roof white underneath them (with some solar reflective paint)?
All these videos are very informative but it also demonstrates a problem , there are so many options and opinions that any punter such as me finds it very hard to know what we should be using .
Of course everyone’s property and circumstances are different but in short it’s a nightmare , an expensive one to get wrong at that .
Add in sales people with targets to meet & it’s a nightmare
@@hughmarcus1 my folks had a pushy salesman round the house. He generated a proposal on opensolar; for a system cost of £13k they could expect a £600k saving over the next 30 years 😂. He also had an allowance to give "preferred" customers another 10% off but that discount just happened to be expiring the following day.
Hi. I was particularly interested in this video as I’ve recently had a Heatable installation. I found them to be very good to deal with despite them getting a fair amount of stick on social media 😀. I guess a lot of people think the bifacial panel angle is just marketing bs. Heatable told me who would do the install if I went ahead. Getting to meet the installers before committing was important to me as one of my concerns was buying from a uk-wide business who often outsource the installation (the installers were great by the way). My system is performing well and I’m very happy with it so far. I went for a GivEnergy AIO battery and specified the IQ8AC microinverters. My thinking was that as I’m on the south coast (Bournemouth) we get a bit more sun than the uk average and I wanted a higher (360W) AC output than the IQ7+ in your video. This is already giving me 1kW extra generation from my 14 panels when the inverters are maxed out. Time will tell if this was a good choice in winter or on dull days when they may not generate so much (so I’m told). I enjoyed the video anyway. Thanks 😀
The massive downside about micro inverters you fail to mention is the £170 cost per one! Vs say the 5kW GivEnergy inverter for £1100 that can do 20x400w panels for 8kw panels oversized. Or a basic inverter for half that price if anyone is going inverter only with no battery!
The 2nd massive downside is the max 320w - you can now get Aiko panels that are 450w - every new panel out there is over 420w. Some large size commercial panels go up to 600w. Why would you want 320w clipping on 400w panels. Inverters lose about 2% in efficiency at 100% power - so why throw away 25-30% power!
The 3rd problem is if one fails.
The 4th issue is DC panels going into a DC battery do that without going through an inverter - much better when you want to be filling the battery on low light days.
Can see why Enphase was a $40bn USA company with massive profits on the stockmarket - the markup on those inverters would make Apple jealous - probably cost $20 to make in China. And yes, £170 on a single inverter is expensive when panels cost £65 in UK. See ITS technologies / Midsummer Wholesale
What was interesting in the video was the quick side-to-side comparison of the bifacial panel vs the single sided - I'm impressed!
I just bought IQ7A inverters for £95 each delivered.
You can get 350w micro Inverters for about 33 pounds each from Taobao in China. Works well.
@@nnnnn8173 What does "works well" mean? Do they give you more electricity? Are they worth an extra 200W of solar panel (£60 for a 400W panel in the UK at August 2024)? No, of course they aren't. They are a huge con, multiple electronic devices that have no fans and are behind incredibly hot panels during the Summer, what if one goes wrong on your roof? £2,000 for scaffolding just to change one over. A solar panel is far less likely to stop working than a micro inverter. They are such a waste of money. Where is the advantage in having them?
Not sure why one failing is a problem, had an inverter fail after 3 months so 2 weeks or so with no power, one inverter fails you still get power from the rest. EEV blog has done a few videos on his micro inverters
One thing you lose from putting a home battery outside is heat! Most ppl tell their battery to charge in winter at night on cheap off-peak electric and the inverter might lose 5% electricity in the AC-DC process of filling the battery. Put it outside you're contributing to global warming vs inside where the waste heat is heating your house!!! Also IP65 or whatever - it's going to be more reliabel indoors than outdoor! Also DC batteries don't like freezing conditions, or 35C - put a home battery outside, in -10C in winter it will throttle it's charging to 50% or less! Not good charging off-peak in winter when it's going to be below freezing! And it won't like being 35C in the sun in summer! Put it in a utility room that's 15-20C all year and it's going to be well happy and last longer!
best practice is outside these days.
@@narrowboatlongpod4176 but lithium batteries prefer the temperatures humans like. 10-30C. They throttle power below 0C and high temperatures damage them. Therefore a garage or utility room is better for the battery life
You are right, but new PAS specifications limit the areas inside where people should be installing now. Such as lofts, under the stairs in cupboards, habitable rooms, emergency exits etc etc. Ideal place is in a garage really.
@@spjelectrical2940I'd be interested to know if an LFP battery system has ever caught fire. Not scooters or EV bikes using the standard lithium cobalt manganese chemistry. But a LFP battery fire. And more than just the electrics going "pfft" and a bit of burnt plastic. Ie. TVs are electric but we don't put them outside!
Micro inverters for a small, completely unshaded and roof mounted system is not a good optimisation imo.
For the additional cost of the inverters (£/wh) you could just fit another couple of panels that will massively outperfom any advantage otherwise. The less stuff you put on the roof the better imo, the costs to do "roofing stuff" are now the biggest cost of the system. When i worked out the costs for my system i got a better ROI for putting panels on a low flat roof i could therefore self install without scfolding, even though that location was less optimum in terms of insolation. The labour costs to put panels on my main roof, high with difficult access but unshaded and south facing) pretty much would have doubled the overall cost, whereas the insolation reduction from the non-optimum position is actually only approx 1/4
Micro inverters are also always going to cost more per Wh as each inverter carries an overhead per wh harvested, ie the casing, mounting, connectors, and of course the internal power and control electronics. For example, it costs pretty much the same to drive a single mosfet in a DCDC as it does to drive 10 in parallel, so your electronics cost per Wh is increased when you compare to a single, large high power device. When you start to look at long strings of panels then you also start to see a cabling cost save on larger systems as you are carrying your power at a higher average voltage (240VACrms vs say 400Vdc). So at 20amps (typical max continuous MC4 connector rating), you are talking about being able to carry 8kW, vs 4.8kW on the same cable!
If you put a reflective sheet under the panels it would massively increase the generation from the back.
Mirror finish roof tiles/slates under PV are the future😂
The reverse is true. You need to cool the back of the panels in warmer places as they lose efficiency when warm.
@@hughmarcus1 Is peak summer generation more valuable than winter generation? Self-consumption gives a better return, I believe - so winter probably pays better (so long as the configuration actually helps with this scenario)
@hughM9
Your wrong! If you increase the % of the generation of the reverse side by as little as 20%, it would outweigh the efficiency reduction. Example... 1/3 extra hourly generation would make the 0.32% lower efficiency per 1°c higher heat (over 25°c), even at 40°c, panels are still 95% efficient. Basically, increasing 33% of reverse facing faces, would only reduce generation by maximum of 5%! Do your own calculations, then reply when you realise I'm right.
Could you fix the micro invertors INSIDE the roof slope ( or would that be a problem for heat dissipation)?
Could save a few maintenance problems down the line if possible.
I'm English doing solar in Australia, we get 2 of them jobs done a day with the alphas and bigger systems on the roof with a crew of 4, criminal that's taken 2 days with that many lads
Fewer tea breaks in Oz.
I suspect Australian roofs are less steep, fewer working at height restrictions than the English.
Installs on tin roof are easier and faster than on tiles.
That said, we Aussies are known for working harder and more productively than many others.
Fitting to a metal roof is much, much quicker than installing on a tiled roof. Each tile where an anchor sites needs to be properly weatherproofed. The time this takes can vary depending on whether the tile is a plain tile, profiled tile (as in the video) or slate. Plain tiles are the quickest by use of a hook stop, concrete profiled tiles require grinding out which takes a bit longer and slates require cutting and flashing which takes the longest of all. If not done properly for just one fixing, then you have a leak.
In addition if the rafter width is 35mm or under (which is common in UK houses built using trusses) then they require reinforcement which adds even more time.
I can confirm that a team of 3 ( 2 roofers and 1 sparky ) installed 2 complete systems per 8 hour day in Adelaide Australia, we do have an advantage of better weather 🙂.
The majority of installations were to tiled roofs, and were identical installations with no variations offered by an electrical retailer for a fixed price...
I had a "4kw system" installed under the FIT scheme in 2014. Comprises 16 Solarworld SW250s with Enphase M215 microinverters. Works exceedingly well. A crew of three installed it within 2.5 hours. Four other teams from the same company did much the same and in the same time frame (one was a neighbour who had his installed the same day. The other three installed theirs on my recommendation: my son and two friends. Not one of our microinverters has ever failed. There's been no perceptible degradation over time. Output on our 4kw system has varied from 4.7 to 4.9 megawatts per year. Our consumption has varied, not least do to some construction work and Covid, so it has fluctuated from 4.0 to 5.7 megawatts per year. ROI was seven years: no point in pursuing mis-selling claims with that kind of efficiency. Now in retirement. I'm putting additional panels on our flat-roofed EPDM-covered outbuildings in an EW orientation (with a low inclination due to coastal winds in Thanet which can reach 100mph): this time we will add battery storage: ROI will be 4 years, thanks to Octopus Energy's green tariffs and the fact that the lion's share of our electricity costs are already dealt with by the existing system. Thereafter it will just be a source of profit: not huge but significant and dependable. If our DNO would permit it, I'd do much more, just as commercial firms around us have done, including a firm of accountants with over a hundred panels, a local fitness centre with about the same, our Sainsburys with several hundred, farmers who have covered their barns and houses, a railway maintenance yard with well over a thousand, and so forth. So to what extent are the house builders doing their bit? Don't make me laugh: Some only put up one or two panels on a new house. Others really push the boat out and add three or four. But every new property in some of these developments has a EV charging point. New commercial buildings are putting in sod all. It is scandalous. About time the new Government requires all new buildings to max out the full potential of their roofs to support green energy. One installer, btw, told me that the time it takes to connect a solar panel to a microinverter is about one minute. I'd say that was an exaggeration: From what I've seen, I think it takes about two minutes, including mounting the microinverter itself.
If you get a DC-coupled battery, you save the same amount of space. Instead of having an inverter for the panels, then a rectifier for the battery, then an inverter for the battery, you only need one inverter for the whole system. Our 10kW+10kWh system is just one battery-width wide and 1.7m high. And a good 25cm of that height is a heating pipe passing through the middle.
I would mount all inverters under the first, lowest row of panels. Installation with some short DC extensions from the panels. This will come handy for maintenance e.g. when you have to replace a faulty inverter.
I find that Hoymiles microinverters do much better than Enphase with modern 400+Wp panels. Also with OpenDTU you have a way superior and more privacy minded solution than with crappy phone apps which need a cloud and can go down at any time the manufacturer feels like it.
I installed three 420W panels with IQ7A micro inverters on the roof of my shed a year ago. An easy DIY install for people that know what they're doing.
Great to see another video from y’all. Interesting kit too.
Gotta just tell you, one of my neighbours had solar fitted a few weeks ago, I didn’t see it done as the firm was only there one day, three faces of roof all done from ladders !!! Then next day they noticed the gutter hanging off and next house down had hanging tiles missing where they’d clouted them.
Finally, Sheila asks me how they’re held on, ‘are they tied because it looks like something over the ridge’?? Sure enough, the cables from the west set don’t enter the roof, they’re pulled tight over the roof hip tiles and under the south set 😖
Not reassuring to see, can’t imagine it’ll last long
Where is the Envoy? This REA Fusion panel is a premium Australian product designed for harsh climates. The front and rear surfaces are bonded "glass on glass" so it should last. There is no plastic backing sheet to peel off /de-laminate over time.
I put I Q7 on my 21x 410 panels, 2 years ago and i haven payed for electric since. 20 kwh of batteries. £800 on excess generation. Having a 9 kwh Air sources pump installed with Sunamp Thermino 150 ePlus. we will see if i can achieve total heating hot water and electricity this time next. One more thing they come on and hour before DC panels and stay on later. I also have them on the North side of the house.
What’s the cost comparison between these and normal panel
27 pence........;)
It's pretty hard to say, as there's a fairly wide spread of panel prices, and the bifacial panels aren't the most expensive ones. However the cheapest panels are about £57, and the cheapest bifacial panels are about £71 - so you could say they're 20% more, which matches that performance boost.
However the panels are the cheapest part of the install. Those micro-inverters are £175 each, the batteries are a few thousand and the scaffolding and labour add a fair bit too.
I think a £50 grinder with a thin blade would beat the £300 Hilti on that cutting job, another tool battle required maybe.
Most metal grinding disks clog up when used on aluminium. Tungsten carbide tipped circular saws work well though!
@@robinbennett5994 Your right most do but there are some specifically for aluminium, in my experience the problem with carbide tipped saws in hand held devices is that they can kick back and can be dangerous but fine in a bench mounted saw, I owned a business for 25 years cutting aluminium extrusions.
If anything goes wrong with the Enphase inverters (or they need replacing after 10/15 years, I assume that's a scaffolding up job?
It sure is - and it will cost £2,000 or more in 2024...
years ago Grey alloy flat roof material was brought in to reflect off flat roofs and omit the use of stones etc that cause issues if walked on. it wouldn’t add much in cost to an installation.
Now that was really useful, long time subscriber and I'm now on that journey to try and understand solar and battery storage for my house. This was the best explanation I've seen so far on the difference between oprimisers and micro-inverters. The things I hadn't twigged was that the latter eliminate the need for the big inverter box on the wall and also that the cables from the roof are then AC only. I've got roughly east / west facing with some shading from chimney but not that much space to put the battery and inverter. Got plenty of space but a lot of it in very hot sun in summer or a really cold blast in winter but with only the battery to worry about I've got a couple of spots might work.🤔 Food for thought, cheers Jordan, Artisans and Heatable.👍👏
Glad we could help you understand more about solar and any differences that you needed to learn about!
I like that this gives us the option to install the old way and the new way. I've got plenty of grinding discs already. But I may actually do just the bottom row the new way as it only that thats visible. Bit like Schrödinger's Cat!
Meter Fixer is going to love working in that meter cabinet.
We´ve installed Enphase Microinverters since 8 years ago. We would recommend them over any string inverter any single day. But I am pretty much convinced that a bifacial panel wont do ANY difference in that sort of installation (flush) since it needs reflection from the surface (Albedo).
the main problem is that you have too much solar in the summer & not enough in the winter (maybe 10 times lower?) to keep warm? (20% more power in the summer is fine, but 20% of nearly nothing Nov-Feb = Nothing also)
well the idea is you sell the power back to the grid during times you don't need all of it, to get credit on your bill in the winter
Design for winter, so more panels (normal panels will do in winter and are 'cheap'). Size your inverter for spring/autumn (max out in summer). With grid capacity as it is, and more people installing solar, selling back to the grid will become less attractive.
The cost driver for inverters is capacity, skip all the additions for panel optimization (as they are expensive and will not give sufficient return on investment during winter). You will end up with an installation using more space for the same capacity, but a more level power production over the seasons. And the savings on inverter and optimization will pay for the additional panels.
you also have others companies with microinverters, biggest problem is this if one of them fail client have to pay one more time installation cost for change, but less risk of fire, easier to install. Do you install blitz protection also in england? Germany/Poland/Austria install 16mm PE grounding wire between profiles under panels, and we connect this to main grounding point in house. And on DC solarcable you should cut only 6mm of isolation while mc4 making :D
I fitted solar panels to my garage 5 years ago, panel wattage was 300w. Now i can get 450w bifacial panels of around the same size massively cheaper than my original panels. I'm abit undecided about micro inverters. You might get more efficiency but if one of them breaks or packs up you need a scaffold to remove and replace. Scaffolding is expensive. The main benefit of micro inverters is shading of panels on a string. this no longer such a big issue as alot of panels now feature methods of mitigating shade across a string.
Single panels can fail, then everything might go down. Atleast with micros, you know which exact one is down.
If one goes down, you're down 1 panel / inverter. If a panel fails on a string inverter, you might be just out the panel, or you might be out the string. Also, you might not know where the fault is. Also, I like that it's 240VAC vs 500VDC. A lot safer in my opinion. I've DIY'd 2 enphase 10kw installs, and it's definitely more expensive, but the ease / data is awesome. Their tech support was great as well.
in UK you will get 60-70% of rated peak power output of panel
450W will give you 270W-315W MAX typical power whole year round
Microinverter will live quite long
Enphase IQ8A have 25 years warranty
Be advised most microinverters are dying of too high voltage, not due age or random dying.
I have fitted hundreds myself. I have seen exactly 5 dead. One random. 4 died of too high voltage
If you have no shading, then skip micros, unless you want to avoid DC.
Be advised DC should be avoided only because of DC arc is much harder to stop
DC shock is much better, then what they show. I have got over 700V on both hands (plus on one hand, minus on other) from Live panels on roof. It was OK, not particularly fun, but definitely I wasn't screaming. My boss wouldn't know, ig I haven't told him and he was standing right behind me. I do not recommend to test it yourself tough - it is not fun.
@@fgbhrl4907 NOT TRUE
One panel going down in string means, bypass diodes are taking over and you are losing one panel. I have seen it with microinverter and panel dropped 1/3 of its rated power.
@@WizardNumberNext I can tell you from real world experience on my own home, that I lost a string (out of 3) because a panel failed. The junction box ended up melting, and the entire string went offline. With a string system without optimizers, I didn't know that the string had gone offline, other than I was generating less than I was expecting. It happened in the winter, so I didn't immediately put two and two together. Probably took 6 months to really notice something was happening.
More points of failure that require you to pay to put up scaffolding again to replace. These really can cause a massive headache.
If you leave bifacial panels standing, can you double the output by using a mirror for reflecting light to the back side of the panel?
We had 12 Enphase micro inverters fitted to our array in 2013. One failed about 2015 but was replaced under guarantee. Otherwise no issues at all
Yes, but did the micro inverters improve the power output, and if so, by how much, and how much is that worth in money, versus the cost of the pointless micro inverters?
Did enphase cover the cost of scaffolding or access costs of replacing the inverter?
You could always spray the roof white or fit good old radiator backing foil before the panels are fitted! 10-20% increase in efficiency vs. roof tiles?
I wish these bi-facial panels were around when I ordered my system in 2017.
To be honest the advantage is minimal if installed on a roof. The less light and reflection comes from the back the smaller the gains.
@@Felix-st2ue It is useless installing bifcial panels, flushmount to a roof. But the installer makes more money.
6:36 "nice and close for the bird protection" means hotter in summer and lower performance.
Vertical rails and landscape panels layout means more rising airflow and better cooling of the panels when the sunshines 🌞 😊
I’m confused, micro inverters have been around for around 12 years in the UK, is that deemed new 😅 Bifacial have been around for even longer but obviously at lower cell efficiencies. I’d be interested to know which panel they used to get the 20% difference in output and is that 20% more over a day, week, year or just one moment in time. From the quotes I’ve seen, the REA Fusion (Heatable) and Enphase equipment carries a hefty premium over many other brands and string or optimiser based systems so you’ve got to compare the ROI and the possibility of scaffolding for repair and assess shading issues of course.
Have you ever seen a datasheet for the REA Fusion 2 panels?🤔
How about painting the roof under the solar panels with reflective paint is that going to improve productivity
I have heard about this in a few comments now.🤔
Is there any mileage in fitting a UV reflective sheet or panel between the tiles and the panels? Clearly this would be a better option if these panels were to be used as a roofing material - i.e. build UV reflection into the insulation below the sealed panel...
Please just note that the IQ7+ are rated at 290w so great you have fancy panels but during most of the summer months that extra power the panels produce with be clipped by the inverters. Will get a bit more during the winter months admitedly with the bifacing panels but the inverters wont be enough in summer.
I have iq7+ and get xlipping already in April with basic 395w panels.
Hopefully the customer got a deal on the panels.
Just curious here. If you put some reflective material under the solar panels (like aluminium paper), wouldn't it give you even more solar output?
Can you walk on top those? They look like they dont hold weight. Looks reallyyy good. Just some jobs require people to walk on solar panels sadly. So if you need your roof worked on or fumigated...idk. Do recommend getting sturdy panels that can hold weight if your putting them on your house.
What should be done by Solar panel manufacturers is create solar panels which are 'roofing rated'.
Apart from Tesla tiles they don't make panels which can substitute for long run roofing and insulation paper and possibly insulation. If the cost of roofing was built into the cost of panel installation, given the surface area of a North or South facing roof (hemisphere dependent) low cost lower efficiency panels could be used as well.
Bi-facial solar PV panels are a good idea. The battery next to the window is a bad idea. Have a read of PAS documents
The microinverters sound interesting. I would like a video on the real performance of the panels,price and durability. Also why the batteries in the open? It seems that the circuitry is left out in the open with limited protection from the elements. What are the temperature in which the equipment described can operate? Winter -15/20 C, summer +28C
you mentioned its produces DC output? to charge batteries?? how? and does the mini inverter participate in the charging of batteries during the night. (from grid during winter)?
I'd like to see if the third / back layer of cells might pick up more energy if tuned for the infrared to pick up energy from panels and roofing that easily hits 30 - 40 c 135 - 150 f
@artisanelectrics to have better output from bifacial panels try to paint the roof with white paint in the panel zone before placing the panels. !!! should have better results with reflections !!! cheers 😎
Glad to see this, it's exactly what we have just decided to install after a fair bit of research.
If you get extra light reflecting off the roof on to the rear of the panel, why don’t you fit a reflective foil panel directly on to the rear of the panels and increase ten fold the rear reflection.
That bird grille is not going to exclude smaller birds like sparrows and finches. Nor will it keep out mice and rats. It really needs to be solid.
With regards to the wifi monitoring, that's all well and good, but I'd prefer something I absolutely know will be working in 20 years' time: a physical panel.
So in strong sunlight when very often systems are providing more power than required these produce more excess juice?
Perhaps some reflective materials should be placed under the panels to reflect more light??? Like the foil you might sometimes see behind radiators?
Had the Enphase micro inverters for almost 2 years now and it's been great!
I have bi-facial (Trina 430 N type fitted, with a Tesla powerwall 2 and gateway… since fitted, commissioned and operating, since 4th April last, the system has supplied all our power, and I have not imported any power from the grid, but have exported 145kWh to the grid… Conditions have been reasonable, with some sunny days, but mostly cloudy with the odd break in the clouds, and of course a few days overcast and raining… However, I am over the moon with the system, and now considering adding another battery so I can effectively go ‘off-grid’ during better weather conditions at least…so if saving 50% of my electricity costs overall, and getting the payback for my investment in the system a lot sooner… well pleased 😊 and would recommend the bi-facial panels to anyone…
Or.... you have a bypass diode on your panel ! All the newer panels have one and it comes for free. There are videos out there which show that they render balancers useless.
Hear, hear. All solar panels have had bypass diodes since the 1980s. Micro inverters and optimisers are a complete con and a waste of money, and one more thing to go wrong on your roof, which will cost you a fortune to get fixed, as you will need scaffolding again.
I really hope this technology is better than the others, as I have just signed up to have it installed with heatable. I looked at a website the competition supplied, and all the advantages seemed to point to micro-inverters!
Would you still use those inverters in a battery storage situation? Ie you’d have to convert back to DC.
Our first set of 16 solar panels on our East-West facing roof has two Sunny Boy inverters and was installed well over 10 years ago. Our second set was installed in 2019, 14 panels, and Enphase micro inverters. Both systems generate broadly the same amount of electricity. Our first set of panels need cleaning now, and we are wondering about the merit of switching them over to a micro inverter system when we get them cleaned. The Sunny Boy inverters still work so really we should only replace them when they break, it's just that we're a bit suspicious that they are coming to end of life. We haven't had any quotes yet. We're in Leigh on Sea.
Enphase microinverters have a 25 year warranty I believe, I've had them for many years but as someone above said 10 years and more is common, they are rock solid, if it ain't broke, don't fix it as they say! I just re-read what you said, you've got a string setup for one setup and microinverters for the others, I still wouldn't mess with it if its all working. The downside to string arrays is the larger inverter might fail and take them all out (that string I mean), but if its working I'd leave it that way.
I've always been told you shouldn't install any extra equipment in the meter cupboard as this is reserved for the DNO and provider.
Is this incorrect??
Microinverters are great - probably the best method of power conversation - but Enphase has power output limitations (see below) compared to other microinverters. So even if you are using bifacial panels, your limiting factor is the microinverter! Please try and be clear and transparent with your viewers.
IQ8MC: 325W max AC output
IQ8AC: 360W max AC output
IQ8HC: 380W max AC output
For example, if using IQ8MC microinverters with 435W solar panels, the max AC output would be limited to 325W per panel, even though the panel is rated higher!
Bifacial panels might be good for van solar panels?
With the bi-facial panels, why not mirror-back them with a reflective panel behind? It could be fitted under the rails or as part of the panel itself.
Does it not make sense to install these with a reflective white board behind these panels to gain even more solar energy?
have you ever installed Photo Voltaic Thermal panels which can do heating as well as electrical generation
Snake oil.
Where can I get the bifacial panel in uk please?
I have a question if the micro inverters feed the battery and the house the house is okay but for the battery, you will need to use a lithium battery that complies with the conversion between AC to dc, and in night it will feed back to the home so you need an inverter there am I right?
I'm really interested in seeing some whole-year data for the bifacial panels - I have plenty of space for a 9kWp array, just need to work out the best way to optimise capital vs return (particularly winter performance).
Dear Artisans, Wouldn’t the bifacial panels benefit with white solar reflective paint on the roof tiles? 🤔🤔
Why hasn’t a company come up with either a paint or a reflective surface that adheres to the roof surface like the reflective insulating material that goes behind radiators, of course outdoor rated this would surly increase the reflective aspect and the efficiency.
Excellent video as always!!
Can the pigeons or other birds not get through the gaps in the bird protector? It looks very wide??
Thanks! Whilst they do look wide, they do well at keeping the birds away.
What's the bird protection link or name pls
How does the micro-inverter per PV panel function with a newer solar batteries that has the inverter installed in it; e.g. the Tesla 3?
Another great video with lots of useful information. I'm not a fan of roof installations but this one has made me want to revisit it so perhaps I will be converted.
Glad you enjoyed it
I'm a spark but don't know enough about solar to install it - thinking of doing a solar course got sparks.
What do you think of the American Market of people doing DIY solar themselves?? There are a few videos online and know someone who had done a solar set up but wants me to check it out, which I'm very uncomfortable doing?
The person operating the reciprocating saw doesn't know how to use a reciprocating saw. For maximum effectiveness you need to keep your material up against the guard.
Those enphase micro inverters are expensive. While they improve efficiency, I’m not convinced the efficiency gain pays dividends to cover the extra cost.
Firm numbers to compare would be useful.
Nice to hear the metric system being used :D. I wonder these micro inverters... x of these modules out in the elements? How long do they last what does it cost... Efficiency?
You can buy white colourbond roofs in Australia, so I'd imagine that would improve output with this type of panel.
Looks individual inverters is much more scalable solutions. Is this become easier for DIYer to make its own solution scalable and feasible, easier to expand while the harvest result is ideal.
Finally I am trying to get bifacial panels in the UK for a year now. The technology exists but the gatekeepers prevent the better technology in the UK. It is very difficult when you try to hire somebody to do any job. 100% of the companies in the UK try to rip you off and the good ones such as Artisan are not available in specific areas.
Bifacial solar PV is so much cheaper than the traditional panels.
People need to understand that if they install the old non-bifecial panels they just waste money. Now I see 660w panels in standard dimensions. This is great. Bifecial can be used as a normal setup with an inverter. The micro inverters could potentially put you in more expense if you fail. If there is a solution for micro inverters to be installed away from the roof that would be much better
Interesting to note the bird guard is designed to allow ventilation up behind the panels, would be concerned about the temperature buildup behind the panel given the inverters are there, so would be nice to know the inverter operating temp range
The operating range is "fit for purpose". Those things are designed to operate under panels on rooftops.
So I’ve got 470w panels going up. Which nphase inverter is to be used ?
No we haven't. Bi-facials rely on light reaching the rear of the panel. This is by completely clear encapsulation and no white backsheet allowing light through as well as any incidental light coming in round the sides of the array... and reflecting back off the underlying surface. Yes, there will be an increase in production just from the light pass-through but a lot of people are being done by people pushing bi-facials on dark roofing where they simply will not get the additional power claimed. The better manufacturers make this *very* clear in their product specs & data.
How can you say that when they have their own evidence on the performance? I had an install with Heatable just after Christmas and their quote was about the same (sometimes cheaper) but for better kit. If someone offers you a 2012 Mondeo or a 2020 7 Series for less than £100 more, I know which one I’m picking 😂
@@David-ww5bs Hmm, who to trust. The product manufacturer's own statements or a 3rd party selling the product? Yes, that's a difficult one indeed. Note: I'm not saying there won't be additional generation, what I am say though is these things are intended to be mounted in such a way that a decent amount of light gets to the underside. For installations that use surface reflection that surface needs a decent albedo. Dark tiled roof does not.
One of the most BS installations I've seen with bifacials, photos provided to me by a friend that is an installer, was recessed into the roof for a sleek flush fitting appearance with a black tray. Claims of extra generation were made there too with simple reference to the maximum additional production figure from the manufacturer. Naturally the installation had 0% chance of ever doing it.
The end users usually have no way to verify that the extra production is actually happening and go blissfully unaware. Have you checked your installation by sliding black card under the panels and noting the expected drop in production? I'm guessing not...
@@retrozmachine1189 Yes, I do appreciate they were probably designed for better environments than my slate roof, but Range Rovers being designed for rough terrain doesn’t stop them being the most common 4X4 in London. Granted, bi-facials might not be built for the common domestic roof but my roof is an East/West split and I do believe it’s the bi-facial panels that allow me to pick up more light as the sun moves round in the day. I must add, if they were coming out at £,000s more then I may not be as convinced but if I can have additional cells on the back for the same price as your standard Jinkos and Trinas, then my argument is simply - why not?
@@David-ww5bs TANSTAAFL.
Skill saw to cut the rail is definitely the fastest, but it throws chips everywhere, so unless you have a blower, it's probably not the best
Are the micro inverters mains voltage? What voltage is the battery? I guess it's converted back to DC for the battery?
yeh i got enphase IQ7A with my panels 18mnths ago, great to be able to monitor each panel just be aware each micro-inverter only outputs 349w
They might only output 349w but how often in the UK would PV's generate at it's full power, plus you'll never have to worry about panel degradation over time.
@@Mavisto2 no complaints here, but I seen ppl with 440w panels and ask why production so low in strong sun.
We need a reflective surface on the roof then for better efficiency?
Micro inverters are in the technology but I don't think they're as versatile as having a straight DC system with optimizers. And that's a lot of micro inverters to upgrade at a later date plus there's heat issues on the roof so it kind of makes sense to keep the large amount of the electronics out of the heat. But it's definitely an option. And I don't know if things have changed but there at one time was no consideration for using them in grid down situation I would hope that might've changed but it does complicate the process a lot.
Would like to see more side-by-side comparisons of bifacial panels - a 20% gain on top of 420w panels is HUGE in the solar industry where people talk about 1-2% gains normally between panels.
Wish you had included some footage and walkthrough of the the equipment that the panels all connect to , must be some kind of controller which also connects the panels up to an app as shown for monitoring purposes
I keep debating whether to get solar panels. After a divorce, I'm not sure what I'm doing regarding staying put or moving yet - but if I decide to stay put, I might consider it. That same system in the video seems ideal for me (personally), and I think you should make it a standard package!
Would it not be pertinent to put some sort of reflective panels under the PV panels - stainless steel sheets or white plastic boarding for example!?
Also, on the battery, could an enclosure be placed over it to hide it from prying eyes, without it leading to problems with cooling etc!?
It should be noted that Givenergy advises that you still install a string inverter even if you have micro inverters, if connecting to one of their batteries. Which is a bit of a shame.