I love mirror matches for this reason, it feels like I am relearning my character every time I fight someone new with a different perspective on whatever character you're playing.
Just recently I got my ass beat by a Ky as a Ky, literally lost 0-3. And the best part was the whole time I wasn't even angry I was just: "... I can do that?!" Currently in training mode trying to figure out how he even did that.
This is why Rivals of Aether (like smash melee) is my favorite fighting game because of directional influence. You can adjust your knockback angle by up to 9 degrees in either direction (for a total of 18 degrees). This means while doing a combo, no two combos will be the same so you feel sick for getting long combos, each hit is like a new read. At the same time it makes getting comboed feel infinitely more interactive.
@@evilded2but doesn't that mean the risk reward is actually beneficial to the person who got hit? Either you escape or the combo keeps going like it would have if DI wasn't present. And it's not like offense is weak at all in these games either, it just means you have to be sharp on offense as well as defense.
My favorite combo interaction mechanic is actually from smash bros, in DI and SDI. You can tilt and flick the control stick during and after hitstun to influence the direction you get tossed after each hit, adding variability to your opponent's combo structure, and giving them the dynamic challenge of chasing your escape option in order to continue the combo. A kazuya combo that might normally last 10+ hits and TOD you can theoretically be escaped early if you DI correctly and make your opponent miss. That being said, smash bros doesn't typically have long combos like most other fighting games do. For the large majority of characters, "combos" in smash don't often last more than 2-4 hits at most before your opponent can act. Kazuya is a notable exception, as he's one of the few guest characters from the more traditional fighting game series tekken.
As the legend goes Sakurai got Winner's Guilt after trapping some dude in a 30 second ToD in KoF, when the guy really just wanted to have some fun at the arcade but instead went away sad and out of pocket. And this interaction was what inspired him to design the Smash Bros series. A fighting game where you'd still be able to move slightly even while getting hit and still feel like you're doing stuff while getting comboed.
I was going to comment the exact same thing. If I get hit by a combo that I know is optimal and has difficult execution my only reaction is "ok this is really sick" But when I get hit by a random hit in neutral and my opponent does a messy conversion that still deals hella damage I get pissed off haha
Shout outs to MVC3's Team Aerial Combo and it's breaker system, Directional Influence in Smash bros, and Skullgirls Infinite protection system. Also honorable mention for different kinds of alpha counters in games. Yes, those are for blockstrings, but they're still good to have.
@@djhero0071 you know how you can switch characters in the middle of an air combo by pressing special and a direction (and different directions give different bonuses)? If the player getting comboed presses the same direction as the attacker, they break the combo and prevent the switch. Yeah it’s been a while since I last played SG.
I don't think that matters as much since you guess wrong, you're eating a TOD in most cases or close to it. Marvel 3's aerial counter is a lot like KI's combo breaker, but more vague and risky.
@@djhero0071 Skullgirls' IPS system is brilliant. "Flawed because game is too fast/reset heavy." Don't pretend a skill issue is a flaw man, accept Skullgirls isn't your type of game
@Wiziliz I'd argue a burst on command versus a burst that can only come out when you've been combo'd enough that can still be sidestepped and baited is better.
I think my favorite mechanic to deal with combos is SDI from smash ("smash directional influence") Like the name suggests, what this mechanic allows you to do is influence the trajectory a hit lunches you in, by tapping that direction with your stick during hitlag The reason I love this because it adds a level of depth for the person getting combo-Ed as they try to throw off their opponents, and for the person doing the combo because usually different SDI's have different combo routes to deal with them It's a level of interactivity that doesn't just leave me hopeless as I get hit
I'd like to bring up DI, a mechanic from platform fighters (Smash, Rivals of Aether). In these games, you *can* get thrown offstage and destroyed off one combo, but DI gives you a chance to escape by shifting where you get sent. It's also essential for surviving getting launched! This leads to a rule where you *can* have flashy TODs, but they're not guaranteed. Granted, DI isn't the only thing going into defense, but I think it's a cool mechanic.
This video doesnt mention plat fighters, which i think is a major disservice. Combos in those games are super freeflow and adaptive because di is a huge factor, and makes every hit almost like a little reset in itself. Big fan of combos in melee and rivals of aether on both sides
just parroting what they hear instead of actually going through it. I guess 10-20 minutes of sexual content completely define the series rather than the other 50 hours of story. i guess Witcher III and GTA are solely about sex too. going on adventures as a wizard or dealing with gang fights, criminal word and running from the cops? nah all that matters is those few moments of sexual content.
@@notimeforcreativenamesjust3034 10-20 minutes in a 50 hour story(split across 5 routes). That "a lot" is greatly overexagerated. And you have the 2021 remake that removed them with no impact to the story.
@@AverageCatz I love tsukihime but wouldnt really say its for everyone since even without the sexual content tsukihime is still gona make many uncomfortable with its topics and variety of bloody/traumatic scenes. Add on top of that the sudden switches between light hearted slice of life and dark horror that many will be thrown off by... I just cant recommend it to just anyone specially if they are just looking for some normal fun stuff, tsukihime would be at the bottom of the list for those people.
Ohh I wanna see the Melty blood system more honestly, making it so the player has to actively try and time their presses with the hits of the combo sounds actually kinda fun.
I wonder why nobody has made a fighting game that takes inspiration from things like Boxing or actual Martial Arts bouts yet. A fighting game where the goal is more about actually landing hits rather than chaining multiple hits together as punishment might be really cool.
There are also straight up boxing games, although I don't have enough experience with them to know if they satisfy your criteria. Might be cool to take inspiration from tho.
Ngl I don't hate getting hit by combos, even in games like DBFZ. I just view it as a part of the flow of a match, and often it can give me a chance to compose myself and think about what to do next. I do find combos in skullgirls really stressful to get hit by though, because of all the reset opportunities everywhere.
Hi! ggst and rivals of aether player here As someone who has dabbled a pretty good bit into both traditional fighters and platform fighters, this problem is without a doubt one of the most interesting differences between the 2 genres. Most platfrom fighters have a system called directional influence (or DI for short) which lets the player getting comboed actively alter the trajectory they get sent at by an attack. In a free form game like rivals of aether, this literally forces the attacking player to adapt on the fly and react/read the opponent's next trajectory. It also lets players survive attack that they otherwise wouldn't have. Personally I love this and its just another thing that makes me love platfrom fighters as much as I do. That level of control in disadvantage isn't nesseserily lacking in traditional fighters (block pressure can serve a very similar purpose), but in most of them that level of control just goes away once you actually get hit. Which I think is a bit of a bummer.
I strongly disagree on long combos are tolerable if they do little damage. HNK and skullgirls sits at the highest level of "I'm still only here because rage quitting is rude" Never got into KI for similar reasons. If I'm not dying in 2.5 to 3 bnbs, then it's taking too damn long.
I want to program my own fighting game one of the planed characters is a psychopath with a "imagery" ghost friend that is torturing people for fun My plan was to give him long block-strings, good mixups and very long low damage combos that lock you oit of birst so it feels like he is actually torturing your character while you are playing against him I am glad that this video proves the third concept
@@azizkash286 depends on the game, i like them in KI as they are very fundamental as to how the game is played, while in arcsys games they are only there because the devs are too shit scared of possible infinites, which granted it took them until xrd to not have a game that would be plagued with them without burst. but still it's lazy
My favorite defensive mechanic while being comboed has to be DoA's 4-way hold system. Similar to KI's Combo Breaker, Dead or Alive's hold mechanic rewards you for knowing your opponent's patterns and tendencies. Literally catching their highs, lows, mid kicks or mid punches, and reversing or shutting down the combo with a powerful counter. Of course, this is easily defeated by throws or staggered attacks as the holds are actually fairly tight and you can't do holds while in the air or stunned.
I feel like it was suuuuch a missed opportunity that DBFZ had long combos and was a 3v3 fighter. It had appeal beyond the fgc, it could have brought a lot of new people into fighting games. It kinda did a little, but I don't think I'm alone in the experience of trying to get good at the game, and bouncing off hard because i was getting combed for ages and I had to learn at least 3 different characters -- and their god damned combos. The FGC would be a very different place if Arcsys had been smarter than to make Marvel with a dragon ball skin except even dumber
Before I watch the video, this is why I love DI. It gives you some sort of Counterplay rather then just waiting for the combo to end. Yeah you can watch out for like a Throw, or a Reset, or when to Burst if the game has that, but I sayt it's not interactive enough and DI helps immensely.
Gekkosquirrel is avoiding Mortal Kombat like the plague. MK breaker was right there and bro acted like it didn't exist💀 Jokes aside, love your content. I like that there's a FGC channel that covers more niche topics while covering all ranges from casual to competitive. I also appreciate you exposing me in particular to more fighting games considering the main 4 I play are MK, SF, DBFZ, and Power Rangers: BFTG (Which I'm sure only 3-10 people in this comment section know exists)
I actually wanna bring up a mostly despised mechanic: Breakaway from MK11. The idea is really solid, and I'd say more interactive than the series' iconic Breaker. There's a layer of mind games to it. Will they breakaway? Should I risk ending my juggle early for the potential of extending it. The problem is that the answers to breakaway are different for each character and are sometimes _variation_ specific. Everyone has at least one but they're definitely not created equal. Some just give you a KB that deals more damage, some give you a KB that relaunches, some don't do anything just kinda break the armor and end the combo... Not to mention in practice it's more of a knowledge check than a mind game. There are parts in strings that simply cannot be cancelled into aromor break, so they're a safe breakaway. If every character had a reliable armor break that relaunches I think the system would be really good, but as it is it's just... Not.
"Not JUST because it's based off of pornography..." Isn't Melty Blood by the same guy who made Fate? Because to be fair, he didn't WANT to go into the business making hentai, but his writing was so densely packed that the actual STUDIO was like "You better put some tits in this game, or NOBODY'S gonna have the patience to get through it!"
Platform fighters I think have the best combo interactivity. tl;dr, plat fighters have a lot of ways to add interactivity when getting combos but this can be at a cost of making combos that much more difficult adding a higher level of mastery to these games. Smash has DI which changes the angle you get launched at. It didn't exist in 64 which resulted in that game's long combos. This adds a nice level of interaction for the player getting hit, without costing a resource (aside from stage positioning). The player combo-ing has to make a read on what DI their opponent will use as they have to position themselves differently for a followup. Smash also has SDI which stops multihits which allows you to shift your character during hitstun. Multihits stop being useful sometimes cause good players can just avoid it's final hit sometimes tho. Brawlhalla has a 1 frame startup airdodge with 0 frames of endlag and can move you in all cardinal and diagonal directions, and it resets every 2.5 seconds or after 0.5 when touching the ground. Combos in this game rely entirely on reads (if they dodge, which direction, or do they just abare) which makes almost every conversion in this game a string (has gaps), and not a combo (true/ inescapeable). Paying attention to your opponent's dodge habits and cooldown leads to longer strings. Players eventually complain that the game is too passive/ nothing ever happens as a result tho cause many players adopt a whiffpunish heavy playstyle. Rivals of Aether's Airdodge exists. It's very similar to smash bros. airdodge, but with little endlag making it feel closer to Brawlhalla, but it only resets on touching the ground (and maybe wall jump, idk). I never see anyone complain about it altho I'm not exactly in this circle.
I like Touch of Death combos in Tekken where it only happens because you happened to fuck up at the exact position in the exact angel and the other guy is ready to execute the exact combo for it to happen. At which point you’re just, like, coping.
Worst thing about MvC3 btw the combos are just way too long and slow and repetitive Not tryna watch a whole 30 sec of zero doing the same move over and over
I like Samurai Shodown V because it doesn't have much combos, and the combos you do are very restricted for your stamina bar. It forces you to take a break to regenerate stamina, giving your oponente a chances going back(Or just play Enja and finish the round with 1 command)
This is one of the primary reasons why I love to play Smash Bros. Most characters combos aren't crazy long, and a lot of characters have ways to break combos. Then there's the universal mechanic if Directional Influence (DI), where you can just press a certain way. Which if you're playing casually, it'll even things out, since it takes quite a bit of effort to follow the DI properly since it can be quite subtle, so you'll likely miss it if you're not try-harding on a newbie. Still going to wreck the face out of the newbie, but at least the newbie can feel like they are doing something.
C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER is my favourite fighting game mechanic, from my favourite fighting game. It’s perfect for a game based largely on emotions and not lingering too long on the decisions you make. Killer Instinct is basically a fan passion project with the budget of a multi-billion dollar company The game is going to start receiving proper updates again after after 10 years, and if you haven’t tried it out yet I HIGHLY recommend it.
Yeah, i'm kinda suprised Killer Instinct is not mentioned more prominently as a counter-argument to why combo sucks. Their solution "Combo breaker" was an answer to the passive nature of getting combo'ed. As the attacker, you had to push it or respect the other player. And for the defender, it felt like a burst choice but per combo instead of per round (since burst takes so long to restore).
I like if a game has a long impressive combo only if it requires a resource investment. Like a thing you will be able to do once per match if you have full resorcess assuming the resorcess dont fill super fast.
The Upcoming Fighting EX Layer sequel lets you start each round with 7 bars for abilities and supers that doesn't restore, but I think you get a fixed 3 bars when time is running out.There's also Battle High with its unique meter mechanic where you can spend one bar to Dash Cancel and execute Reversals. Once full, you can execute a super, even if you spend said meter doing something else.
As someone who came from the smash scene before going to the wider fgc, im not a big fan of how combos are handled outside of platform fighters because of rhe lack of decision the defender has. In smash there's two very active ways to get out of combos, DI and SDI, basically you can either point your stick in a direction to adjust your trajectory while being hit or wiggle your stick to move a bit in hitstun. Its very interactive for both players because of how flexible platform fighters are and how it forces mixups on both offense and defense
Them's Fighting Herds and DNF Duel are going to mentioned in tandem here for reasons you might be surprised to see. Granted, this has less to do with mechanics that the defender actually controls mid-combo. TFH still has one of my favorite anti-infinite features which is gravity scaling (it's been too long since I played, so I just call it that). You can make out a combo however you can, but the longer it lasts, the faster the defender falls back down. There's a level of insurance that the player getting combo'd won't have to last too long in the cycle if the opponent isn't too crafty with their combo structure. DNF, or should I say, "DNF PVP," also has gravity scaling. the nature of how skills work in the MMO makes it so that bouncing your opponent around is easy, lasts pretty long, and can be pretty funny to watch depending on the class. That said, the defender falls down faster the long they're combo'd. There's even TWO OTHER factors that make a combo not last long: one is the outdated and arbitrary "hit rate" stat, as well as a mark on the defender's health bar that determines how much health they SHOULD lose in a combo (otherwise, the combo no long works). Knowing this by experience, it actually boggles my mind that 8ing didn't apply gravity scaling to their own combo structure and settled for air/ground tech that you can't influence.
Maybe im on the opposite side of the coin but I love that getting a hit in most games gives you the reward of a combo. Other than like DBFZ who I think has to long even for me, it feels really good to get a hit and be rewarded for it by getting to style on your opponent with something they don't get to interact much with outside of combo breaker mechanics. Its why I personally don't like DI because to me DI feels like im being punished still even though I did the right thing but maybe this is also because I come from playing games like Dota or CSGO were you make a mistake and now you just get to sit at your computer and stare at others for like, 2 minutes at a time.
What i hate about KI is you can be better than your opponent and open them up twice as much but they break everything. But they open you up once, you guess wrong and they end up winning
the only problem i have with combos is infinites. oh you whiffed one move and i got in? well put the controller down while i spend 30seconds doing the same thing over and over and over until you're KO'd. oh and its also a combo i'm gonna use OVER AND OVER (looking at you base vegeta corner loop). at that point it's not skillful its just you learned to press buttons at the right time. KI is the only game where infinites work because they make it FUN to watch your character stuck in an ultra. A 130 hit combo that matches the beat of the music followed by the announcer tearing his throat out as he screams UUULLLLLLLTTTTTTRRRRRRAAAA!!!!! sign me up.
I don't mind getting comboed, I find it to be a nice mini break. I can think "oh, i fucked that up, how do I adapt next." I hate mechanics where I have to interact with the opponent's combo, such as BlazBlue's teching. Getting comboed for a few seconds into a hard knockdown is fine be me. Combos being absurdly long is still annoying but I haven't experienced any of those in GGST or SF6, and i dont much like tag fighters.
Great video! I stopped playing fighting games almost a decade ago now. I couldn't escape the salt mines and stopped having fun despite climbing ranks gradually. Kinda sad because the concept of fighting games are my favorite type of games. I'm just too gosh dang grumpy, man.
My favorite fighting game is Clash of Ninja 4. it has a burst mechanic that just costs 75% of your meter and is live whenever you get put in hit-stun. This means you always have a get-out-of-jail button that you can hold onto if you feel pressured. However you can also spend 25% of your meter to roman Cancel, meaning there's both offensive and defensive reasons to use your meter in addition to character specific reasons. And some of the best characters in the game directly target the opponent's meter to prevent them from being able to burst.
I don't think combos are the most important thing in fighting games. Fundamentals are. if someone that could do every max damage combo perfectly but had no fundamentals fought a player who had mastered fundamentals but didn't know any combos, the fundamentals player would win every single time. Basically Justin Wong every time he tries a new fighting game for the first time.
Gekko needs to become cultured in neatherrealm games, because it would add allot go his videos, neatherrealm has 3 unique combo escape systems they have made over the years , such as combo breaker in mk, air escapes in injustice 2 and breakaway in mk11🤷🏿♂️
As a fighting game player, I gonna tell you now, it's not the combos. It's usually gameplay, system, mechanics and characters. Combos exist as a result of understanding these.
Killer instinct and it's combo breaker system is better than any arcsys burst mechanic anyday. The amount of wasted games and matches I've spent on Blazeblue or Strive is very little because those games are actively trash and so are the people that play them. That's a joke calm down. They are fine but having to wait half the match or not getting your burst at all makes playing arcsys games suck and objectively makes them worse. There is no excuse for arcsys to keep using their outdated burst shit and move on to the spinor combo breaker system that Killer instinct has.
broly combo mentioned in the first 100 seconds, I know this is coming from a place of soul and emotion. you get clipped by one of those grabs or 2M? you're watching his movie and maybe superhero before you get to stand up
As someone who had to play a ton of fighting games with a friend because that’s basically all he wanted to play for a while I started to really despise fighting games. We never use voice chat so it was hard for him to explain the controls to me, so i would end up just getting my ass beat. I never really liked fighting games before because I could never I still can’t do any of those stupid half and quarter circle things for some reason and there’s way too many moves to memorize for me. It’s not like you unlock the moves as you go or anything either so you just have to sit there and actually learn them all. I can beat him in aether though. That game and smash bros are the 2 fighting games i can sort of play.
I'm really not a fan of being able to freely interact in combos. Di is the mechanic that ruins my enjoyment of melee (maybe i should just play ICs) killer instinct is much more bearable because at least if they break wrong you can get guaranteed damage even if the can guess break your first hit. Anime games burst is pretty bearable since one you bait it you can probably prevent the opponent from getting again. I like the ips in Skullgirls and getting burst baited in that game is just a skill issue. In general though mid combo interaction mechanics make the game less fun for both the person defending and the one attacking since it increases your mental stack and prevents you from getting downtime to reflect.
Was actually playing mk 1 last night and quit because the combo was to long lol it wasn’t even a rage quit but Serena cameo really drags out the combos, gotta watch like 45 second combo got so tedious I was done for the night
In my humble, honest opinion, blockstrings are also a massive pain in the ass. For some like me with less skill and lack of matchup knowledge, I don't know when my opponent will attack, but if I do manage to block it then chances are I now have to hold two buttons and occasionally take my finger off one of them to block overheads and then if I crack _once_ I get combo'd. All the same, because of how blocking works, I _also_ have to learn blockstrings (which I never get around to because I just. really don't like labbing because if I try to learn a combo or blockstring it often feels like every input has to be frame perfect in order for it to work besides a couple piss-easy BnBs like Bedman? 2H > 236S that I can also sneak a 236H in the middle of if it happens to be a big counter) otherwise the most I can do is hit them with one or two moves and then it's their turn as soon as they're actionable if they block that.
Or you can be like fantasy strike and have combos that are only a few hits so your opponent gets to play again immediately. Sure you don't get to show off your mad skills at the solo rythm game minigame that starts after you hit your opponent but in exchange you get to play more of the actual fighting game so there is that.
"wheres the skill based matchmaking in this system hello arcsys?" While the game with(imo) the best matchmaking system for smaller communities is playing in the background.
Not included in your discussion: when a player is bad at combos, they have to win neutral WAY more than players who are even a little good at it. There is *very* little that feels as bad as repeatedly beating out your opponent in neutral, barely doing any damage, and then getting a third of your health knocked off for vastly less effort than what you put in to achieve half as much. It's true in games with long combos. It's true in games with short combos. It's true in the platform fighters being evangelized by a bunch of commenters. It's true throughout the genre, and nobody ever talks about it because most people who wind up on the losing end of it leave the genre entirely after being told to go put more hours into practice instead of getting actually useful advice like which characters are friendly to players whose thumbs refuse to learn two frame windows.
yeah as someone with dyspraxia the way fighting game expect me to do those convoluted input sequence to get the full damage out of my hit really turns me off from them (not helped by the fact I basically can't perform motion input). I really enjoy the footsies part of fighting game but all the hard execution part means most games are just needlessly innaccessible despite having a lot of systems that wouldn't require this barrier to entry in theory.
Skullgirls players when the land one hit: "now I'm gonna mix you now I'm gonna mix you now I'ma do and extra mix just for style points
The worse part is when you had 5 chances of getting out of the combo but you didn’t know the knowledge check
@@notimeforcreativenamesjust3034 ong
You just kinda described millia
Yeah, you're not getting out if your opponent is Peacock that knows how to turn her into a bullet hell
started playing Skullgirls yesterday and like
how the fuck do I block the combo I'm getting hit by
Getting combo'ed in a normal situation: Well, this sucks.
Getting combo'ed in the mirror match: Your combo, I'll steal it! No one will never know!
I love mirror matches for this reason, it feels like I am relearning my character every time I fight someone new with a different perspective on whatever character you're playing.
Just recently I got my ass beat by a Ky as a Ky, literally lost 0-3.
And the best part was the whole time I wasn't even angry I was just:
"... I can do that?!"
Currently in training mode trying to figure out how he even did that.
@@Hi-Im-GibIt feels like fighting yourself from the future, showing you what you are truly capable of
This is why Rivals of Aether (like smash melee) is my favorite fighting game because of directional influence. You can adjust your knockback angle by up to 9 degrees in either direction (for a total of 18 degrees). This means while doing a combo, no two combos will be the same so you feel sick for getting long combos, each hit is like a new read. At the same time it makes getting comboed feel infinitely more interactive.
Any idea when will come out the second one?
@@VirecaI'm pretty sure they're planning for sometime next year
I'm not a big fan of platform fighters but I've always appreciated how interactive and freestyle-y combos work in those games.
I hate Di so much it's you have to rps off every hit.
@@evilded2but doesn't that mean the risk reward is actually beneficial to the person who got hit? Either you escape or the combo keeps going like it would have if DI wasn't present. And it's not like offense is weak at all in these games either, it just means you have to be sharp on offense as well as defense.
at least in yomi hustle if you're getting comboed you can pull out your phone and start looking at something else
common YOMIH W
My favorite combo interaction mechanic is actually from smash bros, in DI and SDI. You can tilt and flick the control stick during and after hitstun to influence the direction you get tossed after each hit, adding variability to your opponent's combo structure, and giving them the dynamic challenge of chasing your escape option in order to continue the combo. A kazuya combo that might normally last 10+ hits and TOD you can theoretically be escaped early if you DI correctly and make your opponent miss.
That being said, smash bros doesn't typically have long combos like most other fighting games do. For the large majority of characters, "combos" in smash don't often last more than 2-4 hits at most before your opponent can act. Kazuya is a notable exception, as he's one of the few guest characters from the more traditional fighting game series tekken.
That's strictly describing the series from brawl onwards though. 64 and melee obviously have very long "zero-to-death" combos.
KI needs to make a comeback, with the genre on the rise in popularity. This is the perfect time to drop a new one.
I thought I heard that Killer Instinct 2013 was getting an update of some kind.
@@Thalanoxit's getting a balance update + other little things
As the legend goes Sakurai got Winner's Guilt after trapping some dude in a 30 second ToD in KoF, when the guy really just wanted to have some fun at the arcade but instead went away sad and out of pocket.
And this interaction was what inspired him to design the Smash Bros series. A fighting game where you'd still be able to move slightly even while getting hit and still feel like you're doing stuff while getting comboed.
Idk sometimes I think getting hit by a cool combo is really cool, it's only bad when it's a combo I see very often with very little execution
You think bnb combos are 'bad'?
I was going to comment the exact same thing.
If I get hit by a combo that I know is optimal and has difficult execution my only reaction is "ok this is really sick"
But when I get hit by a random hit in neutral and my opponent does a messy conversion that still deals hella damage I get pissed off haha
@@felisk4304 hey! sometimes messy convertions are really cool (specially in older games like AC+R or even Xrd)!
Me playing Cody in SFV
@@guitaroach bnbs doesnt mean they are easy, many bnbs that are iconic to characters require really good execution
Shout outs to MVC3's Team Aerial Combo and it's breaker system, Directional Influence in Smash bros, and Skullgirls Infinite protection system. Also honorable mention for different kinds of alpha counters in games. Yes, those are for blockstrings, but they're still good to have.
Which breaker system in MVC3? Also the infinite prevention system is flawed as fuck considering how fast and reset heavy SG is
@@djhero0071 you know how you can switch characters in the middle of an air combo by pressing special and a direction (and different directions give different bonuses)? If the player getting comboed presses the same direction as the attacker, they break the combo and prevent the switch.
Yeah it’s been a while since I last played SG.
I don't think that matters as much since you guess wrong, you're eating a TOD in most cases or close to it. Marvel 3's aerial counter is a lot like KI's combo breaker, but more vague and risky.
@@djhero0071
Skullgirls' IPS system is brilliant. "Flawed because game is too fast/reset heavy." Don't pretend a skill issue is a flaw man, accept Skullgirls isn't your type of game
@Wiziliz I'd argue a burst on command versus a burst that can only come out when you've been combo'd enough that can still be sidestepped and baited is better.
think dbfz has this the worst out of the modern line-up, hell based goku spirit bomb 2 hit kill takes forever for being so small.
I think my favorite mechanic to deal with combos is SDI from smash ("smash directional influence")
Like the name suggests, what this mechanic allows you to do is influence the trajectory a hit lunches you in, by tapping that direction with your stick during hitlag
The reason I love this because it adds a level of depth for the person getting combo-Ed as they try to throw off their opponents, and for the person doing the combo because usually different SDI's have different combo routes to deal with them
It's a level of interactivity that doesn't just leave me hopeless as I get hit
I'd like to bring up DI, a mechanic from platform fighters (Smash, Rivals of Aether). In these games, you *can* get thrown offstage and destroyed off one combo, but DI gives you a chance to escape by shifting where you get sent. It's also essential for surviving getting launched!
This leads to a rule where you *can* have flashy TODs, but they're not guaranteed. Granted, DI isn't the only thing going into defense, but I think it's a cool mechanic.
This video doesnt mention plat fighters, which i think is a major disservice. Combos in those games are super freeflow and adaptive because di is a huge factor, and makes every hit almost like a little reset in itself. Big fan of combos in melee and rivals of aether on both sides
Calling Tsukihime (the game Melty Blood is based off) as... that, is wild
just parroting what they hear instead of actually going through it. I guess 10-20 minutes of sexual content completely define the series rather than the other 50 hours of story.
i guess Witcher III and GTA are solely about sex too. going on adventures as a wizard or dealing with gang fights, criminal word and running from the cops? nah all that matters is those few moments of sexual content.
@@MokonaModokiES Yeah, Tsukihime is a great read tho I definitely recommend to anyone who hasn't played it
Isn’t there a lot of sex scenes though? I mean its basically a erotic Novel
@@notimeforcreativenamesjust3034 10-20 minutes in a 50 hour story(split across 5 routes). That "a lot" is greatly overexagerated. And you have the 2021 remake that removed them with no impact to the story.
@@AverageCatz I love tsukihime but wouldnt really say its for everyone since even without the sexual content tsukihime is still gona make many uncomfortable with its topics and variety of bloody/traumatic scenes. Add on top of that the sudden switches between light hearted slice of life and dark horror that many will be thrown off by... I just cant recommend it to just anyone specially if they are just looking for some normal fun stuff, tsukihime would be at the bottom of the list for those people.
Ohh I wanna see the Melty blood system more honestly, making it so the player has to actively try and time their presses with the hits of the combo sounds actually kinda fun.
I wonder why nobody has made a fighting game that takes inspiration from things like Boxing or actual Martial Arts bouts yet. A fighting game where the goal is more about actually landing hits rather than chaining multiple hits together as punishment might be really cool.
We've had stuff like Fighter's Destiny, Samurai Shodown series, Toy Fighter, Karate Masters and the upcoming Dojo Masters.
There are also straight up boxing games, although I don't have enough experience with them to know if they satisfy your criteria. Might be cool to take inspiration from tho.
I think Hellish Quart fits this criteria pretty well
Ngl I don't hate getting hit by combos, even in games like DBFZ. I just view it as a part of the flow of a match, and often it can give me a chance to compose myself and think about what to do next. I do find combos in skullgirls really stressful to get hit by though, because of all the reset opportunities everywhere.
Eh, I am fine with them, it allows my wrist to rest in the middle of matches
Hi! ggst and rivals of aether player here
As someone who has dabbled a pretty good bit into both traditional fighters and platform fighters, this problem is without a doubt one of the most interesting differences between the 2 genres.
Most platfrom fighters have a system called directional influence (or DI for short) which lets the player getting comboed actively alter the trajectory they get sent at by an attack. In a free form game like rivals of aether, this literally forces the attacking player to adapt on the fly and react/read the opponent's next trajectory. It also lets players survive attack that they otherwise wouldn't have. Personally I love this and its just another thing that makes me love platfrom fighters as much as I do.
That level of control in disadvantage isn't nesseserily lacking in traditional fighters (block pressure can serve a very similar purpose), but in most of them that level of control just goes away once you actually get hit. Which I think is a bit of a bummer.
Air teching is a weird subsection of this where it lets you get out of combos but only if the opponent is playing sloppy.
I strongly disagree on long combos are tolerable if they do little damage.
HNK and skullgirls sits at the highest level of "I'm still only here because rage quitting is rude"
Never got into KI for similar reasons. If I'm not dying in 2.5 to 3 bnbs, then it's taking too damn long.
I want to program my own fighting game one of the planed characters is a psychopath with a "imagery" ghost friend that is torturing people for fun
My plan was to give him long block-strings, good mixups and very long low damage combos that lock you oit of birst so it feels like he is actually torturing your character while you are playing against him
I am glad that this video proves the third concept
Being comboed doesn't suck if you play Arcsys or NRS games. At least you can break them.
combo breakers are a very good design in fighting games tbh
@@azizkash286 depends on the game, i like them in KI as they are very fundamental as to how the game is played, while in arcsys games they are only there because the devs are too shit scared of possible infinites, which granted it took them until xrd to not have a game that would be plagued with them without burst. but still it's lazy
Tl;dw: You can't play and push buttons
Why even make this video?
Hot take: being stuck in a block string sucks way more than being comboed
My favorite defensive mechanic while being comboed has to be DoA's 4-way hold system. Similar to KI's Combo Breaker, Dead or Alive's hold mechanic rewards you for knowing your opponent's patterns and tendencies. Literally catching their highs, lows, mid kicks or mid punches, and reversing or shutting down the combo with a powerful counter. Of course, this is easily defeated by throws or staggered attacks as the holds are actually fairly tight and you can't do holds while in the air or stunned.
I feel like it was suuuuch a missed opportunity that DBFZ had long combos and was a 3v3 fighter. It had appeal beyond the fgc, it could have brought a lot of new people into fighting games. It kinda did a little, but I don't think I'm alone in the experience of trying to get good at the game, and bouncing off hard because i was getting combed for ages and I had to learn at least 3 different characters -- and their god damned combos.
The FGC would be a very different place if Arcsys had been smarter than to make Marvel with a dragon ball skin except even dumber
I hope dbfz2 goes that route, basically Melty with DragonBall characters
Before I watch the video, this is why I love DI.
It gives you some sort of Counterplay rather then just waiting for the combo to end.
Yeah you can watch out for like a Throw, or a Reset, or when to Burst if the game has that, but I sayt it's not interactive enough and DI helps immensely.
Gekkosquirrel is avoiding Mortal Kombat like the plague. MK breaker was right there and bro acted like it didn't exist💀
Jokes aside, love your content. I like that there's a FGC channel that covers more niche topics while covering all ranges from casual to competitive. I also appreciate you exposing me in particular to more fighting games considering the main 4 I play are MK, SF, DBFZ, and Power Rangers: BFTG (Which I'm sure only 3-10 people in this comment section know exists)
I have yet to see anyone talk about the Shang tsun 1 minute combo that only does one half of your health
It’s literally 2 moves for 1 minute
I actually wanna bring up a mostly despised mechanic: Breakaway from MK11. The idea is really solid, and I'd say more interactive than the series' iconic Breaker. There's a layer of mind games to it. Will they breakaway? Should I risk ending my juggle early for the potential of extending it. The problem is that the answers to breakaway are different for each character and are sometimes _variation_ specific. Everyone has at least one but they're definitely not created equal. Some just give you a KB that deals more damage, some give you a KB that relaunches, some don't do anything just kinda break the armor and end the combo... Not to mention in practice it's more of a knowledge check than a mind game. There are parts in strings that simply cannot be cancelled into aromor break, so they're a safe breakaway. If every character had a reliable armor break that relaunches I think the system would be really good, but as it is it's just... Not.
"Not JUST because it's based off of pornography..." Isn't Melty Blood by the same guy who made Fate? Because to be fair, he didn't WANT to go into the business making hentai, but his writing was so densely packed that the actual STUDIO was like "You better put some tits in this game, or NOBODY'S gonna have the patience to get through it!"
Platform fighters I think have the best combo interactivity.
tl;dr, plat fighters have a lot of ways to add interactivity when getting combos but this can be at a cost of making combos that much more difficult adding a higher level of mastery to these games.
Smash has DI which changes the angle you get launched at. It didn't exist in 64 which resulted in that game's long combos. This adds a nice level of interaction for the player getting hit, without costing a resource (aside from stage positioning). The player combo-ing has to make a read on what DI their opponent will use as they have to position themselves differently for a followup.
Smash also has SDI which stops multihits which allows you to shift your character during hitstun. Multihits stop being useful sometimes cause good players can just avoid it's final hit sometimes tho.
Brawlhalla has a 1 frame startup airdodge with 0 frames of endlag and can move you in all cardinal and diagonal directions, and it resets every 2.5 seconds or after 0.5 when touching the ground. Combos in this game rely entirely on reads (if they dodge, which direction, or do they just abare) which makes almost every conversion in this game a string (has gaps), and not a combo (true/ inescapeable). Paying attention to your opponent's dodge habits and cooldown leads to longer strings. Players eventually complain that the game is too passive/ nothing ever happens as a result tho cause many players adopt a whiffpunish heavy playstyle.
Rivals of Aether's Airdodge exists. It's very similar to smash bros. airdodge, but with little endlag making it feel closer to Brawlhalla, but it only resets on touching the ground (and maybe wall jump, idk). I never see anyone complain about it altho I'm not exactly in this circle.
shout out to DI (directional influence) and SDI (smash Directional Influence) from smash bros.
I like Touch of Death combos in Tekken where it only happens because you happened to fuck up at the exact position in the exact angel and the other guy is ready to execute the exact combo for it to happen. At which point you’re just, like, coping.
Worst thing about MvC3 btw the combos are just way too long and slow and repetitive
Not tryna watch a whole 30 sec of zero doing the same move over and over
I like Samurai Shodown V because it doesn't have much combos, and the combos you do are very restricted for your stamina bar. It forces you to take a break to regenerate stamina, giving your oponente a chances going back(Or just play Enja and finish the round with 1 command)
As someone introduced to the fgc by mvc2, yeah, getting comboed sucks.
This is one of the primary reasons why I love to play Smash Bros. Most characters combos aren't crazy long, and a lot of characters have ways to break combos. Then there's the universal mechanic if Directional Influence (DI), where you can just press a certain way. Which if you're playing casually, it'll even things out, since it takes quite a bit of effort to follow the DI properly since it can be quite subtle, so you'll likely miss it if you're not try-harding on a newbie. Still going to wreck the face out of the newbie, but at least the newbie can feel like they are doing something.
C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER is my favourite fighting game mechanic, from my favourite fighting game. It’s perfect for a game based largely on emotions and not lingering too long on the decisions you make.
Killer Instinct is basically a fan passion project with the budget of a multi-billion dollar company
The game is going to start receiving proper updates again after after 10 years, and if you haven’t tried it out yet I HIGHLY recommend it.
Yeah, i'm kinda suprised Killer Instinct is not mentioned more prominently as a counter-argument to why combo sucks. Their solution "Combo breaker" was an answer to the passive nature of getting combo'ed. As the attacker, you had to push it or respect the other player. And for the defender, it felt like a burst choice but per combo instead of per round (since burst takes so long to restore).
I love getting styled on, really creative unique people styling on you can teach you alot of new things
Now mix and resets. That makes my soul cry
MK1, Shang Tsung, 1 MINUTE COMBO
We call this a skill issue where I'm from tbh
I like if a game has a long impressive combo only if it requires a resource investment. Like a thing you will be able to do once per match if you have full resorcess assuming the resorcess dont fill super fast.
The Upcoming Fighting EX Layer sequel lets you start each round with 7 bars for abilities and supers that doesn't restore, but I think you get a fixed 3 bars when time is running out.There's also Battle High with its unique meter mechanic where you can spend one bar to Dash Cancel and execute Reversals. Once full, you can execute a super, even if you spend said meter doing something else.
As someone who came from the smash scene before going to the wider fgc, im not a big fan of how combos are handled outside of platform fighters because of rhe lack of decision the defender has. In smash there's two very active ways to get out of combos, DI and SDI, basically you can either point your stick in a direction to adjust your trajectory while being hit or wiggle your stick to move a bit in hitstun. Its very interactive for both players because of how flexible platform fighters are and how it forces mixups on both offense and defense
”Why getting shot sucks in an fps”
Them's Fighting Herds and DNF Duel are going to mentioned in tandem here for reasons you might be surprised to see. Granted, this has less to do with mechanics that the defender actually controls mid-combo.
TFH still has one of my favorite anti-infinite features which is gravity scaling (it's been too long since I played, so I just call it that). You can make out a combo however you can, but the longer it lasts, the faster the defender falls back down. There's a level of insurance that the player getting combo'd won't have to last too long in the cycle if the opponent isn't too crafty with their combo structure.
DNF, or should I say, "DNF PVP," also has gravity scaling. the nature of how skills work in the MMO makes it so that bouncing your opponent around is easy, lasts pretty long, and can be pretty funny to watch depending on the class. That said, the defender falls down faster the long they're combo'd. There's even TWO OTHER factors that make a combo not last long: one is the outdated and arbitrary "hit rate" stat, as well as a mark on the defender's health bar that determines how much health they SHOULD lose in a combo (otherwise, the combo no long works). Knowing this by experience, it actually boggles my mind that 8ing didn't apply gravity scaling to their own combo structure and settled for air/ground tech that you can't influence.
i’m glad melty blood type lumina doesn’t have this issue
Indeed.
Maybe im on the opposite side of the coin but I love that getting a hit in most games gives you the reward of a combo. Other than like DBFZ who I think has to long even for me, it feels really good to get a hit and be rewarded for it by getting to style on your opponent with something they don't get to interact much with outside of combo breaker mechanics. Its why I personally don't like DI because to me DI feels like im being punished still even though I did the right thing but maybe this is also because I come from playing games like Dota or CSGO were you make a mistake and now you just get to sit at your computer and stare at others for like, 2 minutes at a time.
What i hate about KI is you can be better than your opponent and open them up twice as much but they break everything. But they open you up once, you guess wrong and they end up winning
But are you really better if your combos are predictable enough to be broken everytime?
Most of the time, when i get comboed for seconds on end i just laugh at how funny my character getting juggled like its a circus looks.
the only problem i have with combos is infinites. oh you whiffed one move and i got in? well put the controller down while i spend 30seconds doing the same thing over and over and over until you're KO'd. oh and its also a combo i'm gonna use OVER AND OVER (looking at you base vegeta corner loop). at that point it's not skillful its just you learned to press buttons at the right time. KI is the only game where infinites work because they make it FUN to watch your character stuck in an ultra. A 130 hit combo that matches the beat of the music followed by the announcer tearing his throat out as he screams UUULLLLLLLTTTTTTRRRRRRAAAA!!!!! sign me up.
I don't mind getting comboed, I find it to be a nice mini break. I can think "oh, i fucked that up, how do I adapt next." I hate mechanics where I have to interact with the opponent's combo, such as BlazBlue's teching. Getting comboed for a few seconds into a hard knockdown is fine be me.
Combos being absurdly long is still annoying but I haven't experienced any of those in GGST or SF6, and i dont much like tag fighters.
I get getting combo suck but if u spend your defensive options u deserve to get comboed. Fighting games are the definition of Time to get better
Great video! I stopped playing fighting games almost a decade ago now. I couldn't escape the salt mines and stopped having fun despite climbing ranks gradually. Kinda sad because the concept of fighting games are my favorite type of games. I'm just too gosh dang grumpy, man.
My favorite fighting game is Clash of Ninja 4. it has a burst mechanic that just costs 75% of your meter and is live whenever you get put in hit-stun. This means you always have a get-out-of-jail button that you can hold onto if you feel pressured.
However you can also spend 25% of your meter to roman Cancel, meaning there's both offensive and defensive reasons to use your meter in addition to character specific reasons.
And some of the best characters in the game directly target the opponent's meter to prevent them from being able to burst.
I don't think combos are the most important thing in fighting games. Fundamentals are.
if someone that could do every max damage combo perfectly but had no fundamentals fought a player who had mastered fundamentals but didn't know any combos, the fundamentals player would win every single time. Basically Justin Wong every time he tries a new fighting game for the first time.
Gekko needs to become cultured in neatherrealm games, because it would add allot go his videos, neatherrealm has 3 unique combo escape systems they have made over the years , such as combo breaker in mk, air escapes in injustice 2 and breakaway in mk11🤷🏿♂️
As a fighting game player, I gonna tell you now, it's not the combos. It's usually gameplay, system, mechanics and characters. Combos exist as a result of understanding these.
Killer instinct and it's combo breaker system is better than any arcsys burst mechanic anyday. The amount of wasted games and matches I've spent on Blazeblue or Strive is very little because those games are actively trash and so are the people that play them. That's a joke calm down. They are fine but having to wait half the match or not getting your burst at all makes playing arcsys games suck and objectively makes them worse. There is no excuse for arcsys to keep using their outdated burst shit and move on to the spinor combo breaker system that Killer instinct has.
broly combo mentioned in the first 100 seconds, I know this is coming from a place of soul and emotion. you get clipped by one of those grabs or 2M? you're watching his movie and maybe superhero before you get to stand up
As someone who had to play a ton of fighting games with a friend because that’s basically all he wanted to play for a while I started to really despise fighting games. We never use voice chat so it was hard for him to explain the controls to me, so i would end up just getting my ass beat.
I never really liked fighting games before because I could never I still can’t do any of those stupid half and quarter circle things for some reason and there’s way too many moves to memorize for me. It’s not like you unlock the moves as you go or anything either so you just have to sit there and actually learn them all.
I can beat him in aether though. That game and smash bros are the 2 fighting games i can sort of play.
I'm really not a fan of being able to freely interact in combos. Di is the mechanic that ruins my enjoyment of melee (maybe i should just play ICs) killer instinct is much more bearable because at least if they break wrong you can get guaranteed damage even if the can guess break your first hit. Anime games burst is pretty bearable since one you bait it you can probably prevent the opponent from getting again. I like the ips in Skullgirls and getting burst baited in that game is just a skill issue. In general though mid combo interaction mechanics make the game less fun for both the person defending and the one attacking since it increases your mental stack and prevents you from getting downtime to reflect.
"but a new player shouldn't be getting hit with a 30 second combo"
if you listen closely, you can hear the absence of DNF.
I was waiting for the C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER mention!
Was actually playing mk 1 last night and quit because the combo was to long lol it wasn’t even a rage quit but Serena cameo really drags out the combos, gotta watch like 45 second combo got so tedious I was done for the night
In my humble, honest opinion, blockstrings are also a massive pain in the ass. For some like me with less skill and lack of matchup knowledge, I don't know when my opponent will attack, but if I do manage to block it then chances are I now have to hold two buttons and occasionally take my finger off one of them to block overheads and then if I crack _once_ I get combo'd. All the same, because of how blocking works, I _also_ have to learn blockstrings (which I never get around to because I just. really don't like labbing because if I try to learn a combo or blockstring it often feels like every input has to be frame perfect in order for it to work besides a couple piss-easy BnBs like Bedman? 2H > 236S that I can also sneak a 236H in the middle of if it happens to be a big counter) otherwise the most I can do is hit them with one or two moves and then it's their turn as soon as they're actionable if they block that.
Perhaps fighting games should experiment with smash di from smash 64. It would make it more dynamic
In MK 11 you can have invincibility frames if you press a button while in the middle of getting bodied to fall out of a combo.
Whiffing one hit against a Johnny/Cyrax team and accepting that you will not be able to use your controller for the next 15 seconds
Or you can be like fantasy strike and have combos that are only a few hits so your opponent gets to play again immediately. Sure you don't get to show off your mad skills at the solo rythm game minigame that starts after you hit your opponent but in exchange you get to play more of the actual fighting game so there is that.
I agree with everything you said however isn't this video basically saying getting shot in a shooter game sucks? (take this with a grain for salt)
"You'll see them get a big hit and then death, of course this is a joke" you forget "unless you play Zato or Chip" lol
"wheres the skill based matchmaking in this system hello arcsys?"
While the game with(imo) the best matchmaking system for smaller communities is playing in the background.
PLEASE MORE KILLER INSTINCT!!!! I love the game a lot okay. XD
Seeing all the casual babies picking Smash in the comments because they can't handle other fighting games is beyond hilarious.
mfs will take a 30 second combo and call Smash Bros a party game, at least we got SDI. :3
So killer instinct found a way to get mix ups inside a combo. Genius
Sin players when they hit you while they’re in the corner and wall break you on the other side of the stage. Getting positive bonus
cmon why you always gotta say that Melty is based off a porn? Like it happens in like one scene. Tsukihime is a good visual novel
For me its games like melty and p4au, where i have no clue when the combo ended and im there like wtf is happening
It would be cool to see you do a video on DKO, a weird 3d team fighter along the lines of rising thunder
I'm surprised you didn't bring up tekken in the being combo'ed for 30 seconds
For a moment, i thought you were taking about Yugioh. But yeah get beat up sucks....
then win neutral, You don't have to worry about getting comboed if you're hitting them.
my favorite mechanic was mash to reduce damage! in old games I thought it was so stupid lol
I kind of like how combos give you time to think about what you did wrong and what you'll do next
i wonder what you think of the destroy mechanic in earlier guilty gear. just an instant kill if you land it
“Why die when you stop breathing”
Come on man, really?
Dude, how come you don’t mention DoA5 or SoulCalibur?
see this is why playing strive potemkin makes me nice, no mean evil combos here just hugs :3
Dead or Alive had the hold system so you can counter mid combo unless your airborn
I've noticed they feel less long if I know what hits are coming next
the optimal way to play a fighting game is to make both players play the game as little as possible
Ok so play killer instinct if you want interactably combos.
me going outside to have a smoke after shuma-gorath hit me once in neutral:
yo watch out, the british funny man came up with another banger
Not included in your discussion: when a player is bad at combos, they have to win neutral WAY more than players who are even a little good at it. There is *very* little that feels as bad as repeatedly beating out your opponent in neutral, barely doing any damage, and then getting a third of your health knocked off for vastly less effort than what you put in to achieve half as much.
It's true in games with long combos. It's true in games with short combos. It's true in the platform fighters being evangelized by a bunch of commenters. It's true throughout the genre, and nobody ever talks about it because most people who wind up on the losing end of it leave the genre entirely after being told to go put more hours into practice instead of getting actually useful advice like which characters are friendly to players whose thumbs refuse to learn two frame windows.
yeah as someone with dyspraxia the way fighting game expect me to do those convoluted input sequence to get the full damage out of my hit really turns me off from them (not helped by the fact I basically can't perform motion input). I really enjoy the footsies part of fighting game but all the hard execution part means most games are just needlessly innaccessible despite having a lot of systems that wouldn't require this barrier to entry in theory.
I hate when people do damage to me >:(
I love when I do damage to people :D
Cause you're bad. Learn how to block.