After the success and positive responses to Dune Part 2, I discuss the reasons why Dune Messiah could be a game-changer for modern blockbusters. I recently read Dune Messiah and it's a book that provides a very different kind of finale than we are used to seeing.
Herbert's Dune series is fantastic. I would love if someone made a faithful adaptation of his landmark sci-fi books -- instead of whatever lobotomized claptrap Villeneuve is churning out (and I liked his film, "Arrival," so I'm not a detractor of his work, generally -- just of his Dune films).
Wasn't that said about Dune? And then Dune 2? "Changing cinema forever" is a bit much. Why not say: Great looking and solidly made films while a bit distanced on the emotional side." Perfectly fine.
What was so special about these screensavers? Beside nice pictures the acting was mediocre, the music was soso, screenplay anti-climatic especialy at key events and the story not true to the book.
It is though, look at what it's done to our politicians these days. Every Republican is basically Flava Flav now and half the Democrats are as well. It gets people going but it's only a distraction from policy. Considering a lot of that hype involves fear, it's definitely a good analogy. It's especially effective on religious type people.
If you've watched the director's previous films. You would notice that most of, if not all of his work doesn't end on much of a positive note. So this tale is right up his alley.
I think there is a lot between the basic lines of the story that I construe as positive, but as a whole, it’s all pretty bleak, with hope sprinkled around. Man…. I love it so much. 3rd reading of the 6 primary books… Villeneuve will make it work.
@@jeffwilliams6374 Paul and the freman walk out into the desert with jamis body, screen goes black Open dialogue with the weird frog voices dune 2 begins, dune 2 ends same thing black screen frog voices dune part 3. Bada bing 😎👉👉
I honestly think this film could REALLY raise the bar for both action and political drama. You could really show the war through flashbacks or even an extended prologue. I just want to see more of the Holy War than the book.
It’s gonna be the intro scene, part 1 intro was narrated by chani, part 2 by irulan, so perhaps messiah Paul will voiceover the jihad intro first take of the film, than the political intrigue, another action battle and muad’dip fall even getting nuked in the eyes
@@Usernumber777 it will likely be Alia voicing the intro. Idk if it'll be Anya Taylor Joy as Alia (too old for that character in Messiah), but I have a strong feeling it'll be Alia doing the opening monologue regardless of who the actress is.
@@henrycase3788 yes of course that makes sense..perhaps from her adult perspective as empress, her telling it from children of dune timeline perspective
If they skip the holy war in the movie im gonna be pissed, it sounds so cool and based on the small clip of it in the first movie it what ive been looking forward to.
Denis Villeneuve has cited Francis Ford Coppola as one of his biggest influences so it would not surprise me if he looks to Godfather Part 2 for inspiration on the narrative structure.
The de- construction of Paul's character from a messiah figure to a person responsible for religious crusades & absolutely hating his position is going to be a very difficly set-up to pull-off but i believe in Dennis & Timothee to bring their A-game for this finale
I think the pair have already laid the ground for Messiah really well with the perfomance. I could totally see Timothee's Paul going back from victorious yet grim triumph to grimmer realisation on what he's become as he actually experiences it.
@@elijahalbiston hard agree. Paul is terrified of the golden path not just what it will entail for him (god emperor) but for what he has to preside over (the jihad) the changes that brings to the Freman and arrakis as a whole
Yea, nobody wants this but Hollyweird and a holes if you wanna be honest. Haven't we had enough of our hero's, Luke and Han, destroyed to prop up females who have not earned it!
In all probability, I think Villeneuve will spend part of the movie showing the gruesome reality of the Djihad, like the beginning of Blade Runner 2049. Show the daily life of some random planet minding its own business, and then the Fremen attacking and killing innocents, burning the bodies like Harkonnens. That would give the action needed to keep people interested.
@mrrandom1265 I felt that too. It deserves a second read. If you're like me, you jumped right into messiah after Dune and the difference was too jarring to enjoy.
@@curryquipique6098 There's this execution scene from some historical Spanish tv show based on the Spanish inquisition that popped up on my yt recommendation the other day. They showed us crowd of people defiling heretics and infidels as they took a walk of shame to the wooden stake to which they were tied and set on fire. That entire scene was pretty brutal. I expect something like that (a bit toned down to maintain PG rating perhaps) from Villeneuve in Dune Messiah.
It's Villeneuve. It's going to be a great film. I just hope the studio and the general pressure don't get in his way. I hope he gets to make the film he wants to make.
His statement of only wanting to do a 3rd film if it's even better than part 2 may be a ploy to keep the studios from getting ideas. Them forcing Villeneuve out for #3 would be too controversial and potentially revenue hurting, and so this statement helps keep the studios from getting ideas. Probably just his personal preferences though and that I'm reading too far into it. But it's gotta be true at least to some degree.
A really smart thing that he did was to start plotting general ideas for a third whilst working on the 2nd and the Max series, so he had a direction to follow before we saw Part 2. From what he's said about 3, I'm guessing he made 2 with 3 in mind, planting seeds that will bear fruit later. I fully expect him to dip into the third book for inspiration, but he's said that he doesn't want to adapt it. Part 3 will be his last movie.
As a book afficionade, i was blown away. I went alone to make sure i didnt have a "pretty pictures" type with me. The experience was amazing. Saturday i will go again.
I saw both Parts 1 and 2 twice at the cinema with different groups of friends. The first part was a triumph, the second an all-out masterpiece. Can't wait for Part 3.
Great analysis, thank you for taking the time to make it. Villeneuve really does have an opportunity to make a film that's stridently anti-Hollywood - and we can be sure he will take it in that direction, as he was already laying the groundwork in Part 2. While it would be overly reductive to call Paul a villian, it's clear that his good intentions fail to prevent the deaths of tens of billions of peope, and the tragic ending represents his ultimate acceptance that the world may well be better off without him. 2027 can't come soon enough!
They could easily slot in 10-15 min battle scenes as flashbacks in between the slower parts of the Messiah story. Maybe even a dual narrative of two different time periods like Godfather Part 2. I'm no filmmaker but I'd like to imagine when a scene ends and it cuts to black , we then get a... "Year 2 of the Holy War". After that ends, the movie gets back to the main narrative until at some point we see another campaign like "Year 6 of the Holy War" and so on.
I wonder if they will show the opening scene of the book; when an official of Muad'dib's religious enforcers interrogate an historian in a prison cell because he dared to be critical of the new Emperor? Another character that will be important to the Conspiracy against Muad'dib will be Bijaz, the creepy Tleilaxu dwarf. I am also wondering though how they will portray the Stone Burner sequence. - No matter what, it's going to be an amazing creation if Denis can come up with a screenplay that he's satisfied with. I hope that this can eventually become a reality!
I just recently finished reading Messiah. There were times while reading it I was just like “this is… different”. But once I finished it, I was in awe. Although I admit I had a lot more enjoyment from the first book than Messiah, I feel like you’re deliberately not suppose to necessarily “enjoy” Messiah. I started reading it immediately after finishing Dune and it really hit me quick. I know a lot of people say Messiah is the weakest book (I am currently reading Children of Dune so I have no input for that part) but I feel like it will be the strongest movie of the trilogy. I feel like it’s the perfect movie for Denis Villenueve and idk if he’ll include that scene in the beginning since he changed Chani a bit but i am so freaking excited. I don’t like comparing movies to books and saying which is better but I think Messiah is going to be one of those movies where people think it’s better than the book
@@odhmrutamaz4289 > Pretty sure none of that will be in the next movie. No shape shifters no dwarfs no mutated guild operators All I can see there is "good thing I haven't seen 1 and 2 and there's no point seeing 3. Might as well go back to the 2000s SciFi-channel DVDs and the books".
All good points. I think VIlleneve could really play with the visions aspect of Paul, perhaps even giving us the full water of life sequence that many people wanted to see from Paul in the second movie but didn't get... it could work as a flashback. The visions play a central role near the end of Messiah, both plot-wise (on more than 1 occasion) and thematically.
Great video mate. Wasn’t expecting it this morning (I’m in Sydney Australia 🇦🇺). As an adaptation to the big screen, I can bet we see a lot of the holy war before focusing on the main characters ! I’m VERY ampd for Messiah and Dune Prophecy tv series 🏄🏼♂️ 🐛
I think the the first 30 minutes of part 3 could be a climactic battle across the galaxy, then when Paul and the Fremen win, it jumps ahead in years to when he's been Emperor for a while and Alia is grown up, the plot to overthrow him gets underway and Chani and he reunite etc. Just my 2 cents.
Great vid. I know you've seen me waxing on about my theory for part 3. You helped me name it the "Hello Grandfather" path, where Paul in the films has decided to choose the "other path" from the books. Where he takes the water of life two years earlier. Denis is such a genius. He found a way to make the first book's story into a critique rather than a pure tragedy. While STILL allowing the audience to be drawn into his cult of personality. It can't be overstated how difficult that is. Essentially, it doesn't matter that Chani is yelling from the rooftops that "this is all a scam!" The audience is still invested in Paul's success, every step along the way. We will find out in Part 3 that Paul turned her away intentionally to (A) save their unborn child, baby Leto, who dies in the first book. (B) To create the movement against Paul's empire and keep Arrakis dry (and the worms happy). And possibly (C) to save Chani from dying in childbirth. In part 1, Paul's first exposure to spice have him a very specific vision that book fans wrote off as "Paul getting his wires crossed." But Denis doesn't work like that. When we see Chani pretend to love Paul in order to get close enough to shank him, the look on her face says "I finally got you, you effing fraud!" THIS is the path Paul has chosen. Which we will see in part 3 because Paul decided not to spend another two years in the desert with Chani. This single act by Paul changes so many things. His sister Alia doesn't kill the Baron. So she won't go mad. Which allows Denis to end Paul's arc in 3 films without making the story seem incomplete. I believe Alia might give us a teaser to the golden path in the final frames of the trilogy. Something like she allows a tiny baby sandworm to crawl around her hand before it cuts to credits. The characters in these films will once again take center stage, with 3 younger people, all the same age. Alia, grown baby Leto... And the daughter of Lady Margot Fenring and Feyd Rautha. "Marie Fenring", who Frank's son wrote about. Denis will use them to create the setting for an ultimate spy vs spy, prescient cold war on psychedelics. By Paul taking the worm's poison early, many ripple effects will take place. I believe that the Reverend Mother Helen wants to even the odds in her favor to control the galaxy once more. Lady Margot was so good in part 2 that Denis would never have done just to throw her away later. Her appearance was just a teaser for what's to come. Because she's still pregnant in the timeline of the films, Reverend Mother Helen will most likely order her to undergo the transformation herself. And allow her own daughter to be preborn. Possibly even with the blue water as well. By doing this, we now have a contender for Alia and Lady Jessica in Marie and Margot. Which is why Denis didn't bother introducing anyone from the Spacing Guild. While they're sent to contend with Paul's mother and sister, Duncan Idaho 2.0 will be used to deal with Paul. I definitely agree that we'll probably spend the first act at the peak of the holy war. Watching the surviving great houses kneel before Paul as emperor. And the Bene Gesserit fleeing to make their plans within plans before time jumps forward again. When we reach the main story's time, Alia (and the other two) will be 18. Specifically because of the PG-13 rating. And that's when Chani will reappear for the first time as the head of the Freman rebellion to stop Paul's empire in Arrakis. This is where Paul will seek Chani out and allow himself to be stabbed for the third time. This will give them a chance to reconcile, as he predicted in part 2. Where he'll explain to Chani some of the reasons he did what he did. To save their son. Which Chani tried to hide from Paul. And Leto himself. This will establish the period of hope before the fall. Prior to this moment, we will see Paul as the reluctant ruler. Plagued by total certainty of the future. Unable to stop what he's already started with his followers. Waiting for the moment when he'll be reunited with his vengeful love and their son. So when it finally happens, it will be beautiful. However short-lived. We'll also learn about his wife's frustrations with Paul. That he refuses to even touch Irulan. Let alone give her an heir. But soon she will learn that Paul already has a son and heir. And that's when she'll turn to Reverend Mother Helen for guidance. And her contraception plot will become an assassination plot. And Paul will be forced to protect them from harm. Which will further help them reconcile. I do believe this will ultimately cost Paul his life by the end of the film. It's POSSIBLE that Chani will become pregnant with the twins. But I think Denis will avoid this. And possibly even use Paul's prescience to explain it. Leto will be saved. Chani might die as well to save him. Stilgar and Gurney will definitely die. Lady Jessica may or may not as well. If the four acts had themes, it would be like this... Act one: Total domination and victory in the Holy War. With Paul's enemies fleeing and planting seeds to harvest later on to stop Paul. Act two: Supreme boredom, ruling the empire. Very familiar to Messiah. An introduction to the new generation of allies and enemies. Prescient plots within plots. Duncan returns to Paul's side, despite everyone's advice to reject him. Someone close to Paul dies. Irulan is sad. She has come to love Paul, and he won't give her the time of day. We feel for her. Act three: Chani's Freman rebellion. Paul walking into her trap. And their reconciliation. Paul becomes a father. Feel good moments are fleeting. Irulan learns about Paul's heir. Plans with Helen, Margot and Marie to take out Leto, Chani, Alia, Jessica. Act four: The prescient wars. Everyone dies except Alia, Leto and possibly Chani and Jessica. We say a sad goodbye to Paul's most trusted friends. Paul thanks Irulan for helping to bring him and Chani back together. She's heartbroken that he allowed her to try and assassinate Leto and Chani. Paul has to die to save the others. He might be blinded in the process. Final moments: One last look at the beautiful Arrakis desert. Alia walks alone. Voiceover from Chani or Irulan postmortem. Tiny baby sandworm on Alia's hand. Zoom out to the sun setting on Dune. Even with that basic template, it can play out a million ways. A thrill a minute. Denis will bring down the house. The greatest trilogy in film history. And the Denis Villeneuve's Dune cinematic universe will go on to make dozens of other projects based on these films. I could see them doing a prestige series for Anya Taylor Joy as the worm goddess emperor. Many seasons over thousands of years in the storyline. Produced by DV himself. He could direct the pilot.
Oh, FFS. NO. Alia, a God Empress? That's ridiculous, and it takes everything away from the tragedy of her nonexistent chance to ever be a real child. There is no way that Mohiam - who is executed in Dune Messiah - would ever be in favor of a Pre-Born doing anything, because the Bene Gesserit consider the Pre-Born to be abominations who must be killed. Marie Fenring is an invention of the inferior crap churned out by BH and KJA. We know that Margot seduced Feyd, with orders to conceive a daughter, but we're never told if she was successful. That part of the storyline was dropped. Chani has no place narrating this. Irulan is the historian, and so it's her place.
I WILL be going to the 10 hour mega marathon release for this movie. Dune Part 2 is my favorite film, period. I've never watched a movie so many times over and still get chills for SO MANY SCENES. The sound design grips me like no other film ever has. Cannot fucking wait for the finale. I am all aboard the hype train, shoveling coal into the engine.
It's amazing how much people overlook that Paul is playing on God Mode. It's barely mentioned in Dune pt2 and most of the youtube commentary on his character seems to overlook it completely (as do several Herbert comments in fairness). Paul doesn't choose actions; he chooses *outcomes* but he has to do so from a highly constrained selection.
I think it could work actually if they manage to compress the story enough while still maintaining the most important points. The story even has a big spectacle moment with the stone burner scene and Paul's subsequent reliance on oracular vision.
If Messiah is produced, I would love to see Children of Dune and the insane evolution from man to God that Leto II reluctantly embarked on. I just however, can't see anyone taking on God Emperor. Either way, am mostly ecstatic in spite of the many changes and omissions from the saga that to me will always be the best in the known universe.
Paul comes back in the 3rd book as a mysterious prophet figure who comes out of the desert to be an opponent to his crazy sister, Alia---only to be stabbed to death at the end. These are happy books! 😂
For me it was the natural end of Paul's narrative arc. I don't hate the later books, but can understand why Villeneuve is so adamant that his adaptation will be a trilogy ending with Messiah. I half suspect Villeneuve may even go so far as to kill off Paul to make it impossible for endless follow-up films by less talented directors, as we've seen with the Star Wars franchise.
Honestly i think Denis will make some creative changes. The first will be that the holy war is still ongoing during the film. Because to go from the amazing heights of part 2 to a political shadow thriller will be to jarring to an average audience. He can then have the plot and the intrigue set amongst the backdrop of the insanity of the holy war. That with each planet’s obliteration Paul becomes more and more disillusioned and depressed by his actions and his position. I think it will culminate with a plot that will have another grand battle for Arakeen, Paul is then blinded but stops the war and chooses exile. The final shot is him walking blind into the desert of Arrakis with hundreds of of Shai Halud escorting him to his true destiny. I trust Denis he’s said he won’t shoot it until he has the perfect screenplay. And he himself has spoken of what the holy war would look like. I agree this could be a new era in filmmaking after this. I’ve read the book yearly since childhood and I had happy tears in my eyes as did my brother that Dune was done so perfectly watching Dune part 1 and 2.
Personally I think that, like the Syfy channel did. It would be better if they combined Dune Messiah and Children of Dune into a couple of movies. In fact, If they did do that I think there would even have enough material to make three movies.
I am ambivalent about the changes to the book and the fact that whole scenes will never surface for part 1 and 2. Dune Messiah and Children of Dune go into some weird territory plot wise and I'm not really sure if modern script writers and DV will stick the landing. I hope that Chani doesn't fill the role of Korba (old style Fremen that aid Irulan and Mohiam in their plot) in Part 3 and Irulan stays close to the book as the mother figure for the twins she becomes as expiation for her role in the conspiracy.
I just finished reading Dune Messiah. My initial reaction is pretty much the same as yours. I wanted more from it, but still enjoyed the different ideas presented in it. I’m sure on a reread I’ll enjoy it more.
I have a whole theory worked out, but I think with the change of Chani’s character, she’s going to be part of the Fedaykin conspiracy against Paul that he can’t see.
I hope this story goes all the way through the last book. For those who haven't read them, they go way past these two parts of book one. Herbert's imagination was so creative...and groovy!
Dune 2 was everything i wanted from a Dune movie interpretation (especially the Giger-esque Harkonnen scenes). I actually really enjoyed Dune Messiah with the old power-players conspiring while Paul becomes the tyrant of his nightmares. There's plenty of scope for spectacle with Edric the Guild navigator, morphing face dancers and the stone-burner scene.
Dune Messiah would certainly be a slower, more story-driven affair, the come-down from the pinnacle that was Dune: Part II. I imagine its tone would not be unlike Dune: Part I - a more contemplative and moodier film with a slow, build-up toward the dramatic, powerful conclusion. For those people who go to see Dune: Messiah looking for another war movie, they will likely be very disappointed. As far as Paul's character arc goes, the only fiction character with one similar in recent memory is Daenerys Targaryen from Game of Thrones. I hope Villenueve can land the ending better than that...
I’m so excited to see the third movie. The first and second ones were so good! I’ve been a fan of Dune since I was a teenager. Saw the 80s movie version and the television version for children of Dune. There were problems with both, but I like them both. Never thought that, the books could actually be properly presented until now.
@@beverlynjackson9580 i hate that he reappeared in heretics only to die again stupidly. Plus denis said hes not maki by anything else after that, so in the movie universe hes gonna die and not come back, which is infinitely better
After Messiah I'd like to see someone take up the prequel books co-written by Herbert's son: Dune House Atreides, House Harkonnen and House Corrino. We get the backstory on all the politics of the Empire revolving around Duke Leto Atreides before the birth of Paul.
The Dune series is one I have read and reread about every other year. Even the Dune books Frank Herberts son Brian wrote with Kevin J. Anderson were interesting enough that I have read them at least 5 times. As for Dune Messiah, That one is written in such a way that working it into a movie can be done in an almost infinite number of ways. We will have to see what Villeneuve shows as his interpretation.
I clicked on this but since I havent read the books, I have no idea what happens next. Still gave you a like for the effort you put into making the video but g2g 😂
I'm most excited about Dune: Messiah because I would like to see Denis explores the idea of the Ghola; a character described rather roughly, but it being a copy of someone from Paul's past. In this case, a copy of Duncan Idaho; Paul's friend and Master of Assassins dedicating himself to the protection of the Atreides family. It's this idea of a clone of someone that Paul knows intimately but has to go through the process of bringing out the remembered personality and memory of Duncan Idaho of Dune and latter books in the series. Duncan becomes due to his resurrection the singular person who surpasses the Atreides; while he himself was never an Atreides by birth; as is described in latter books, Duncan becomes the tangible representation of what Dune conveys, the eternal spirit of rediscovery. Each character towards the end of Dune, each discovers something inside themselves that yearns for self-reflection. In Duncan's character we discover the man who dedicated his many lives to the idea of being the quintessential Atreides Stewart, he did what he always did, for love and honor of a family that took him in and gave him a family to care for and nurture throughout the centuries of the Dune Universe!
The Sy-Fy mini series sequel, Children of Dune, basically does Dune Messiah with the the first of the 3 chapters, then does Children of Dune with the remaining two.
They might incorporate some of Paul's Jihad, since we mainly hear about it from Paul, Farok and some other characters. There is a lot of storyline in a small book but still 1 film is enough
I believe the next book (Dune: Messiah) will be another 2 part movie. There is so much to take place in it, between the wars, children of Paul, little sisters being reverend mother strength, betrayal.... at least two movies.
I have a suspicion we will see Messiah and Children meshed together in some way. Fingers crossed that regardless, the other 3 books get included in the series too
There's a lot placed in names Fir instance everyone knows Arrakis but do you know there was another sci- fi story about a protagonist in search of identity The Earth Sea trilogy about a wizard named Ged
I'm worried about the age of characters / passing of time. When will the third movie be set? 12 years after Paul becomes Emperor? But then Alia will be only 12 and there's no way they'll show a romantic relationship between a 12yo and Idaho - and nor should they. But if they set it 16 or 18 years later, then that would be a problem too cos Chalamet is too young and too baby faced to pull that off.
Maybe JJ's vision for SW ST was heavily inspired by the original Dune, but Lucas stayed away from such a bleak story for a reason: he wanted kids to have a hero that could forgive the past. Not kill the future.
There should be more explanations of What the GOLDEN PATH is about. Prescience is the ability to see into future. And the use of Spice over time( in case of Spacing Guild vast amounts they used) enhanced this ability. That's a specific danger. As the devices known as hunter seekers will develop to point where locate and decimate the human race
Actually, I hope they spend less money on it so they can take more risks and make it more 'weird'. It's not a blockbuster type of story, I would like them to cater more to us who have read the books rather than the more general audience.
Oh I think they are definitely going to go more into that like you say. Messiah is definitely a book that is more character-driven, mainly one location and also strange at times. But I don't think that restricts them from creating scale with the sets and injecting a few more scenes than the kind of action we saw in part 2. That's what I was mainly getting at. I hope that they keep the approach to Messiah and themes of the book like you say though.
Being a great entertainment, “Dune” also showed us the concern about the civilizational limits at that time. However, we have IT & AI improving wealth creation & distribution plus human abilities & cooperation. The original author neutralized political & religious issues with ingenious settings & tragic development. The director will make a more humane, hopeful, and informative movie adaptation for the 21st century.
The fact that it'll be called Messiah will already face criticism but Denis is showing us..why..its the message Herbert wants us to know and realize about..its not a "white savior"...it shows the dangers of charismatic leaders across the morals of actions of "Leaders"
Theyre probably going to rewrite jessicas role since her actress is really talented and popular, they will probably rework a lot of Alias earlier scenes to be Jessica Scenes. I feel like the film will probably open with a monolog by an adult Alia and some kind of epic montage of the atrocities of paul atredies' jihad intercut with character moments that help set up the emotional themes for the novel proper. Then probably cut to 10 or 15+ years into the jihad were we see its end and Alia's actress is digitally deaged to look like hollywoods "ambiguously teenaged" age so she can still act out her later parts of the book with certain characters in a way thats less uncomfortable for the reader. Also i predict that Hayts actor will be made to look younger, probably by having his actor with a shorter beard and hair, plus makeup or cgi depending on budget. Maybe they will give Timothy Charmander some extra face wrinkle makeup and an angry beard if the final timeskip puts the story over 15 years from the end of Dune
I think a huge factor with how the 3rd movie will formulate the plot is if Denis Villeneuve intends to continue the story into the 3rd and 4th books, which in my recollection are very odd and will probably turn off a lot of casual viewers, or end it as a trilogy with book 2. If this was a Disney IP they'll probably want to milk it for all it's worth and even going into the side story books like Chapterhouse.
Messiah is a great drama but it would be great if children of Dune and God emperor were made into films this would truly complete Frank Herbert's story in regards to our relationship to power and the environment that we live in.
Messiah was an introduction to what followed, but it wasn't a great read, sure some parts were fascinating, Duncan and Alia looking for clues, the dwarf, and Scytale, but so much was also a bit rambling. I would guess a lot of that will be missing from the film anyway. I found part 2 to be dissapointing in the way some pivotal scenes were altered to no real purpose, especially from the confrontaion of the emperor on. As for the books, I enjoyed Children of dune as the best story, a good mix of everything. The films so far though do score absolutely top notch with the visuals, fantastic imagining of craft and the worms were trully awesome.
I think she is a priestess of some kind in the books. There is speculation that her tears weren't magical, but Paul and Jessica knew it would fulfill the prophecy if it appeared as if they were, so his dramatic awakening was actually staged.
Pretty sure that's not gonna happen. She's not a pivotal character within the story - she's just kind of there but then again, so are most of the other characters.
I’m not confident that Jason Momoa has the acting chops to bring the complexity of Hayt’s character. You need someone with an incredible dramatic ability, to be able to show inner conflict like Timothee did as Paul. But I also don’t think recasting is an option either… unless, the ghola is a younger version of Duncan and they recast that way. That would also address the age difference with Alia.
@@simonkammeyer4334 No we don't. What are you going to get from a "modern iteration" you haven't got already? "Adaptation for a modern audience"? That just makes it dumber. Better special effects? What was wrong with the effects from the last one? What will a "modern iteration" do that hasn't been done already?
I would say for certain, and although GRRM doesn't want to admit to it, the concept of the "faceless men" of Braavos, are just a straight out steal from Bene Tleilax, their face dancers and later the advanced face dancers that end up as the real "eternal enemy" in the original books. Scytale is just a teaser of what is about to come in Heretics and Chapterhouse. Sadly, I do not think we will see any movie adaptation of these, since you first have to get past God Emperor, and I cannot conceive of anybody pulling that off, whether as a TV show or a big screen movie.
I love the weird shit in the Dune series. I’m very happy that these films have done well. It means that Dune gets the attention that it deserves however, so far, these films are definitely not wanting to show what makes Dune, Dune, and that’s the weird shit. I hope we get to see Edric in the next film.. and not some normal looking person floating around in a spice gas filled tank(a grounded version). So I’m hoping Dennis’ rendition of Messiah lets at least some of Dune’s colors fly in the next film. It could wow people or scare them away…. I mean, how are they going to explain Duncan’s reappearance?? 😆
I think that the time gap will be bigger, because we need anya taylor joy as paul’s sister, so idk maybe 20 years. If thats the case theyre gonna have to recast paul, so idk how they will handle that
@@troffle yeah but again what about paul wanting to give irulan ‘his seed’ lol so he didnt have to have sex w her and theyre all against it. Bringing dead people back to life that are not exactly who they were before seems wrong too
They probably shouldn’t make it. Humanity is not ready for this. From a confusing plot to a Greek tragedy to a starry eyed twink getting his eyes lasered out of his head, humanity is not ready.
The ideas which was new and interesting during the release of the first 2 Dune books is a norm in this era.....that is why I believe that the ideology behind Dune book series is being over hyped.....all the "not so" subtle commentary on Religion, Preachers, Political systems, false prophets, fallen heroes have been talked about immensely and even depicted in movies......this is exactly the time people aren't interested in these kind of stories, however intellectual or smart you make it sound We crave a 'heroes journey' now more than ever before because every aspect of our society has been villainized I'm betting you right now.....Dune Messiah might get critical support because DV is one of the best filmmakers in Hollywood but the general audience won't love it as much as netizens believe
Hey, Everyone! Let's all have one more big push and all go see Magnificent DUNE: PART TWO again! We should show more appreciation for Denis' genius and hard work and help ensure filmmakers have enough to make DUNE: MESSIAH even more Magnificent!
If Paul sought to dethrone the Bene Jeseret (or however you spell them) then how can we see him as something to be warned about? His success is to be applauded, making him messianic in spite of their manipulative “prophecies”. Seems to me Herbert accidentally made the case for messianic figures.
i dont want it to feel like cinema i want it to feel like im there idc bout action pauls internal turmoil is too great hayt is a great character he made my imagination when introduced intrigued beyond, plus its so tragic and i love that stuff
He does not specify a religion in the first book until you get to the APPENDICES. The religion he DOES specify comes from thousands of years of mixing a whole bunch of religions together. And even then, it's a revised "Orange Catholic Bible" from a committee that included the previous religions of "Zensunni Wanderers from the first, second and third Islamic movements; the Navachristianity of Chusuk, the Buddislamic Variants of the types dominant at Lankiveil and Sikun, the Blend Books of the Mahayana Lankavatara, the Zen Hekiganshu of III Delta Pavonis, the Tawrah and Talmudic Zabur surviving on Salusa Secundus, the pervasive Obeah Ritual, the Muadh Quran with its pure Ilm and Fiqh preserved among the pundi rice farmers of Caladan, the Hindu outcroppings found all through the universe in little pockets of insulated pyons, and finally, the Butlerian Jihad". The last comment on the Fremen attitude is "And because you are here, because you have the religion, victory cannot evade you in the end". The last comment on the Bene Gesserit attitude and the one Herbert talked about most often was "When religion and politics ride the same cart, when that cart is driven by a living holy man (baraka), nothing can stand in their path.” Don't go putting "he warns against Islam" into this discussion.
Although I understand that this new iteration of Dune is a trilogy, I absolutely prefer the ending of David Lynch’s original adaptation to the ending of Dune part 2, which is basically a set piece by set piece remake of Lynch’s film retold over 5 hours with better visual effects. The final knife fight and cliffhanger end let down both new chapters. In 1984, Paul Atreides shoves his tribal knife into Feyd Rautha’s throat, and then looks down on his corpse and explodes his chest with the power of his Voice, no Weirding module required. Then his crazy Heretic Sister Witch proclaims he is the Kwisatz Haderach and it starts to rain on Dune. It’s a better ending sequels be dammed
After the success and positive responses to Dune Part 2, I discuss the reasons why Dune Messiah could be a game-changer for modern blockbusters. I recently read Dune Messiah and it's a book that provides a very different kind of finale than we are used to seeing.
Herbert's Dune series is fantastic. I would love if someone made a faithful adaptation of his landmark sci-fi books -- instead of whatever lobotomized claptrap Villeneuve is churning out (and I liked his film, "Arrival," so I'm not a detractor of his work, generally -- just of his Dune films).
Wasn't that said about Dune? And then Dune 2? "Changing cinema forever" is a bit much.
Why not say: Great looking and solidly made films while a bit distanced on the emotional side." Perfectly fine.
What was so special about these screensavers?
Beside nice pictures the acting was mediocre, the music was soso, screenplay anti-climatic especialy at key events and the story not true to the book.
@@j.m.w.5064 because as wonderful a production as that would be, it would turn people off it. Or at least, marketers would refuse to go that way.
Will we be able to see DUNE MESSIAH before WW3?
I must not hype. Hype is a mind killer
Put your hand in the box.
It is though, look at what it's done to our politicians these days. Every Republican is basically Flava Flav now and half the Democrats are as well. It gets people going but it's only a distraction from policy. Considering a lot of that hype involves fear, it's definitely a good analogy. It's especially effective on religious type people.
Until only hype remains. :)
Lol😂
Lol😂
The most intrigueing thing about Messiah is that it doesn´t even bother with a "happy end".
The question is: are contemporary movie audiences ready to see how a Greek tragedy (sort-of) comes to an end...
If you've watched the director's previous films. You would notice that most of, if not all of his work doesn't end on much of a positive note. So this tale is right up his alley.
The tragic fall of muad’dip
I think there is a lot between the basic lines of the story that I construe as positive, but as a whole, it’s all pretty bleak, with hope sprinkled around. Man…. I love it so much. 3rd reading of the 6 primary books… Villeneuve will make it work.
Are there any messiah stories that have happy endings?
I vote for a uncut all in one dune movie, all three edited together into one cinematic masterpiece.
The people demand a 10+ hour Shai-Halud cut. The Full Sandworm.
Too bad the director doesn’t believe in directors cuts or extended editions
We would have to have an intermission so we can eat.
@@jeffwilliams6374 Paul and the freman walk out into the desert with jamis body, screen goes black Open dialogue with the weird frog voices dune 2 begins, dune 2 ends same thing black screen frog voices dune part 3. Bada bing 😎👉👉
@@JaguarWarri0r1 yeah really pisses everyone off that. Gutted really
I honestly think this film could REALLY raise the bar for both action and political drama. You could really show the war through flashbacks or even an extended prologue. I just want to see more of the Holy War than the book.
It’s gonna be the intro scene, part 1 intro was narrated by chani, part 2 by irulan, so perhaps messiah Paul will voiceover the jihad intro first take of the film, than the political intrigue, another action battle and muad’dip fall even getting nuked in the eyes
@@Usernumber777 it will likely be Alia voicing the intro. Idk if it'll be Anya Taylor Joy as Alia (too old for that character in Messiah), but I have a strong feeling it'll be Alia doing the opening monologue regardless of who the actress is.
@@henrycase3788 yes of course that makes sense..perhaps from her adult perspective as empress, her telling it from children of dune timeline perspective
@@Usernumber777 Ahh yes, the brand new sauce in McDonald's - Muad'dip
If they skip the holy war in the movie im gonna be pissed, it sounds so cool and based on the small clip of it in the first movie it what ive been looking forward to.
The Godfather Part II laid the groundwork of a tragic blockbuster without a heroic ending. Dune Messiah should follow suit.
An overrated sequel but i am sure dune would be better done
Denis Villeneuve has cited Francis Ford Coppola as one of his biggest influences so it would not surprise me if he looks to Godfather Part 2 for inspiration on the narrative structure.
@@henrycase3788A split parallel story. Perhaps?!!
The de- construction of Paul's character from a messiah figure to a person responsible for religious crusades & absolutely hating his position is going to be a very difficly set-up to pull-off but i believe in Dennis & Timothee to bring their A-game for this finale
I think the pair have already laid the ground for Messiah really well with the perfomance. I could totally see Timothee's Paul going back from victorious yet grim triumph to grimmer realisation on what he's become as he actually experiences it.
Impressed by your take in Dennis & Timothée!👍👏
@@elijahalbistonVery sensible/wise take on might be Paul’s (Timothée) thoughts in Dune Messiah!
@@elijahalbiston hard agree.
Paul is terrified of the golden path not just what it will entail for him (god emperor) but for what he has to preside over (the jihad) the changes that brings to the Freman and arrakis as a whole
Yea, nobody wants this but Hollyweird and a holes if you wanna be honest. Haven't we had enough of our hero's, Luke and Han, destroyed to prop up females who have not earned it!
Im not sure people are going to like it too much. From Dune 2, action drama.... Dune 3, a grinding Greek tragedy... with a grim ending.
The book was very disappointing for me
In all probability, I think Villeneuve will spend part of the movie showing the gruesome reality of the Djihad, like the beginning of Blade Runner 2049. Show the daily life of some random planet minding its own business, and then the Fremen attacking and killing innocents, burning the bodies like Harkonnens. That would give the action needed to keep people interested.
@@mrrandom1265 get to God Emperor. It is one of the best books ever made
@mrrandom1265 I felt that too. It deserves a second read. If you're like me, you jumped right into messiah after Dune and the difference was too jarring to enjoy.
@@curryquipique6098 There's this execution scene from some historical Spanish tv show based on the Spanish inquisition that popped up on my yt recommendation the other day. They showed us crowd of people defiling heretics and infidels as they took a walk of shame to the wooden stake to which they were tied and set on fire. That entire scene was pretty brutal. I expect something like that (a bit toned down to maintain PG rating perhaps) from Villeneuve in Dune Messiah.
It's Villeneuve. It's going to be a great film. I just hope the studio and the general pressure don't get in his way. I hope he gets to make the film he wants to make.
His statement of only wanting to do a 3rd film if it's even better than part 2 may be a ploy to keep the studios from getting ideas. Them forcing Villeneuve out for #3 would be too controversial and potentially revenue hurting, and so this statement helps keep the studios from getting ideas.
Probably just his personal preferences though and that I'm reading too far into it. But it's gotta be true at least to some degree.
@@Rauruatreides ooh good point. A strategic statement
Pretty sure the studio will give Villeneuve as much freedom as he wants, at this point!
I hope he gets to make something faithful to the source material.
A really smart thing that he did was to start plotting general ideas for a third whilst working on the 2nd and the Max series, so he had a direction to follow before we saw Part 2. From what he's said about 3, I'm guessing he made 2 with 3 in mind, planting seeds that will bear fruit later. I fully expect him to dip into the third book for inspiration, but he's said that he doesn't want to adapt it. Part 3 will be his last movie.
As a book afficionade, i was blown away. I went alone to make sure i didnt have a "pretty pictures" type with me. The experience was amazing. Saturday i will go again.
I agree!
I have seen this film three times already, the last being in iMax.
Toying w/the idea of seeing it again before it leaves theaters
I saw both Parts 1 and 2 twice at the cinema with different groups of friends. The first part was a triumph, the second an all-out masterpiece. Can't wait for Part 3.
Great analysis, thank you for taking the time to make it. Villeneuve really does have an opportunity to make a film that's stridently anti-Hollywood - and we can be sure he will take it in that direction, as he was already laying the groundwork in Part 2. While it would be overly reductive to call Paul a villian, it's clear that his good intentions fail to prevent the deaths of tens of billions of peope, and the tragic ending represents his ultimate acceptance that the world may well be better off without him. 2027 can't come soon enough!
They could easily slot in 10-15 min battle scenes as flashbacks in between the slower parts of the Messiah story. Maybe even a dual narrative of two different time periods like Godfather Part 2.
I'm no filmmaker but I'd like to imagine when a scene ends and it cuts to black , we then get a... "Year 2 of the Holy War". After that ends, the movie gets back to the main narrative until at some point we see another campaign like "Year 6 of the Holy War" and so on.
I wonder if they will show the opening scene of the book; when an official of Muad'dib's religious enforcers interrogate an historian in a prison cell because he dared to be critical of the new Emperor? Another character that will be important to the Conspiracy against Muad'dib will be Bijaz, the creepy Tleilaxu dwarf. I am also wondering though how they will portray the Stone Burner sequence. - No matter what, it's going to be an amazing creation if Denis can come up with a screenplay that he's satisfied with. I hope that this can eventually become a reality!
I just recently finished reading Messiah. There were times while reading it I was just like “this is… different”. But once I finished it, I was in awe. Although I admit I had a lot more enjoyment from the first book than Messiah, I feel like you’re deliberately not suppose to necessarily “enjoy” Messiah. I started reading it immediately after finishing Dune and it really hit me quick. I know a lot of people say Messiah is the weakest book (I am currently reading Children of Dune so I have no input for that part) but I feel like it will be the strongest movie of the trilogy. I feel like it’s the perfect movie for Denis Villenueve and idk if he’ll include that scene in the beginning since he changed Chani a bit but i am so freaking excited. I don’t like comparing movies to books and saying which is better but I think Messiah is going to be one of those movies where people think it’s better than the book
Pretty sure none of that will be in the next movie. No shape shifters no dwarfs no mutated guild operators .
@@odhmrutamaz4289 > Pretty sure none of that will be in the next movie. No shape shifters no dwarfs no mutated guild operators
All I can see there is "good thing I haven't seen 1 and 2 and there's no point seeing 3. Might as well go back to the 2000s SciFi-channel DVDs and the books".
I imagine them calling Peter Dinklage as we speak
Can't wait to see how Villeneuve puts his spin on the trap of prescience. Such a dark end to Paul's journey
All good points.
I think VIlleneve could really play with the visions aspect of Paul, perhaps even giving us the full water of life sequence that many people wanted to see from Paul in the second movie but didn't get... it could work as a flashback. The visions play a central role near the end of Messiah, both plot-wise (on more than 1 occasion) and thematically.
A very well put, detailed and nuanced analysis. Really interesting, and shows how you actually get the ideas of the books quite precisely.
Great video mate. Wasn’t expecting it this morning (I’m in Sydney Australia 🇦🇺). As an adaptation to the big screen, I can bet we see a lot of the holy war before focusing on the main characters !
I’m VERY ampd for Messiah and Dune Prophecy tv series 🏄🏼♂️ 🐛
I think the the first 30 minutes of part 3 could be a climactic battle across the galaxy, then when Paul and the Fremen win, it jumps ahead in years to when he's been Emperor for a while and Alia is grown up, the plot to overthrow him gets underway and Chani and he reunite etc. Just my 2 cents.
Great vid. I know you've seen me waxing on about my theory for part 3. You helped me name it the "Hello Grandfather" path, where Paul in the films has decided to choose the "other path" from the books. Where he takes the water of life two years earlier.
Denis is such a genius. He found a way to make the first book's story into a critique rather than a pure tragedy. While STILL allowing the audience to be drawn into his cult of personality. It can't be overstated how difficult that is.
Essentially, it doesn't matter that Chani is yelling from the rooftops that "this is all a scam!" The audience is still invested in Paul's success, every step along the way.
We will find out in Part 3 that Paul turned her away intentionally to (A) save their unborn child, baby Leto, who dies in the first book. (B) To create the movement against Paul's empire and keep Arrakis dry (and the worms happy). And possibly (C) to save Chani from dying in childbirth.
In part 1, Paul's first exposure to spice have him a very specific vision that book fans wrote off as "Paul getting his wires crossed." But Denis doesn't work like that. When we see Chani pretend to love Paul in order to get close enough to shank him, the look on her face says "I finally got you, you effing fraud!" THIS is the path Paul has chosen. Which we will see in part 3 because Paul decided not to spend another two years in the desert with Chani.
This single act by Paul changes so many things. His sister Alia doesn't kill the Baron. So she won't go mad. Which allows Denis to end Paul's arc in 3 films without making the story seem incomplete. I believe Alia might give us a teaser to the golden path in the final frames of the trilogy. Something like she allows a tiny baby sandworm to crawl around her hand before it cuts to credits.
The characters in these films will once again take center stage, with 3 younger people, all the same age. Alia, grown baby Leto... And the daughter of Lady Margot Fenring and Feyd Rautha. "Marie Fenring", who Frank's son wrote about. Denis will use them to create the setting for an ultimate spy vs spy, prescient cold war on psychedelics.
By Paul taking the worm's poison early, many ripple effects will take place. I believe that the Reverend Mother Helen wants to even the odds in her favor to control the galaxy once more. Lady Margot was so good in part 2 that Denis would never have done just to throw her away later. Her appearance was just a teaser for what's to come.
Because she's still pregnant in the timeline of the films, Reverend Mother Helen will most likely order her to undergo the transformation herself. And allow her own daughter to be preborn. Possibly even with the blue water as well. By doing this, we now have a contender for Alia and Lady Jessica in Marie and Margot. Which is why Denis didn't bother introducing anyone from the Spacing Guild.
While they're sent to contend with Paul's mother and sister, Duncan Idaho 2.0 will be used to deal with Paul. I definitely agree that we'll probably spend the first act at the peak of the holy war. Watching the surviving great houses kneel before Paul as emperor. And the Bene Gesserit fleeing to make their plans within plans before time jumps forward again.
When we reach the main story's time, Alia (and the other two) will be 18. Specifically because of the PG-13 rating. And that's when Chani will reappear for the first time as the head of the Freman rebellion to stop Paul's empire in Arrakis. This is where Paul will seek Chani out and allow himself to be stabbed for the third time. This will give them a chance to reconcile, as he predicted in part 2. Where he'll explain to Chani some of the reasons he did what he did. To save their son. Which Chani tried to hide from Paul. And Leto himself. This will establish the period of hope before the fall.
Prior to this moment, we will see Paul as the reluctant ruler. Plagued by total certainty of the future. Unable to stop what he's already started with his followers. Waiting for the moment when he'll be reunited with his vengeful love and their son. So when it finally happens, it will be beautiful. However short-lived.
We'll also learn about his wife's frustrations with Paul. That he refuses to even touch Irulan. Let alone give her an heir. But soon she will learn that Paul already has a son and heir. And that's when she'll turn to Reverend Mother Helen for guidance. And her contraception plot will become an assassination plot. And Paul will be forced to protect them from harm. Which will further help them reconcile. I do believe this will ultimately cost Paul his life by the end of the film. It's POSSIBLE that Chani will become pregnant with the twins. But I think Denis will avoid this. And possibly even use Paul's prescience to explain it.
Leto will be saved. Chani might die as well to save him. Stilgar and Gurney will definitely die. Lady Jessica may or may not as well.
If the four acts had themes, it would be like this...
Act one: Total domination and victory in the Holy War. With Paul's enemies fleeing and planting seeds to harvest later on to stop Paul.
Act two: Supreme boredom, ruling the empire. Very familiar to Messiah. An introduction to the new generation of allies and enemies. Prescient plots within plots. Duncan returns to Paul's side, despite everyone's advice to reject him. Someone close to Paul dies. Irulan is sad. She has come to love Paul, and he won't give her the time of day. We feel for her.
Act three: Chani's Freman rebellion. Paul walking into her trap. And their reconciliation. Paul becomes a father. Feel good moments are fleeting. Irulan learns about Paul's heir. Plans with Helen, Margot and Marie to take out Leto, Chani, Alia, Jessica.
Act four: The prescient wars. Everyone dies except Alia, Leto and possibly Chani and Jessica. We say a sad goodbye to Paul's most trusted friends. Paul thanks Irulan for helping to bring him and Chani back together. She's heartbroken that he allowed her to try and assassinate Leto and Chani. Paul has to die to save the others. He might be blinded in the process.
Final moments: One last look at the beautiful Arrakis desert. Alia walks alone. Voiceover from Chani or Irulan postmortem. Tiny baby sandworm on Alia's hand. Zoom out to the sun setting on Dune.
Even with that basic template, it can play out a million ways. A thrill a minute. Denis will bring down the house. The greatest trilogy in film history. And the Denis Villeneuve's Dune cinematic universe will go on to make dozens of other projects based on these films.
I could see them doing a prestige series for Anya Taylor Joy as the worm goddess emperor. Many seasons over thousands of years in the storyline. Produced by DV himself. He could direct the pilot.
Seems like you also developed prescience
@@janmajer4662 long live the MatPat!
Oh, FFS. NO.
Alia, a God Empress? That's ridiculous, and it takes everything away from the tragedy of her nonexistent chance to ever be a real child. There is no way that Mohiam - who is executed in Dune Messiah - would ever be in favor of a Pre-Born doing anything, because the Bene Gesserit consider the Pre-Born to be abominations who must be killed.
Marie Fenring is an invention of the inferior crap churned out by BH and KJA. We know that Margot seduced Feyd, with orders to conceive a daughter, but we're never told if she was successful. That part of the storyline was dropped.
Chani has no place narrating this. Irulan is the historian, and so it's her place.
I hope tf not lol
I cant wait, huge Messiah fan. Really excited to see what Denis does with it.
I can’t wait to watch these two films back to back.
Just did the other night. More than 5 hours of cinematic epicness. Can't wait for Part 3.
I WILL be going to the 10 hour mega marathon release for this movie.
Dune Part 2 is my favorite film, period. I've never watched a movie so many times over and still get chills for SO MANY SCENES. The sound design grips me like no other film ever has.
Cannot fucking wait for the finale. I am all aboard the hype train, shoveling coal into the engine.
It's absolute torture just waiting for "Messiah." It's gonna be amazing. So worth the wait. I'm so excited.
Get ready to wait 3 or 4 more years, lol
@@idiot_city5444 I thought the release was 2025....
@@thomas-beaver they aren't even starting shooting until August 2025
It's amazing how much people overlook that Paul is playing on God Mode.
It's barely mentioned in Dune pt2 and most of the youtube commentary on his character seems to overlook it completely (as do several Herbert comments in fairness). Paul doesn't choose actions; he chooses *outcomes* but he has to do so from a highly constrained selection.
I think it could work actually if they manage to compress the story enough while still maintaining the most important points. The story even has a big spectacle moment with the stone burner scene and Paul's subsequent reliance on oracular vision.
If Messiah is produced, I would love to see Children of Dune and the insane evolution from man to God that Leto II reluctantly embarked on. I just however, can't see anyone taking on God Emperor. Either way, am mostly ecstatic in spite of the many changes and omissions from the saga that to me will always be the best in the known universe.
No way can they get pass Book 2....
As far as I know Pauls story dont end here.
But the director only wants to make Dune Messiah and thats it.
well pauls arc ends here, then it is leto II arc and paul has a part in it but he is no longer main character i guess.
Paul comes back in the 3rd book as a mysterious prophet figure who comes out of the desert to be an opponent to his crazy sister, Alia---only to be stabbed to death at the end. These are happy books! 😂
@@alexzuccarelliYes, The Prophet from The Desert, absolutely correct and is instrumental in Alia's fate.
For me it was the natural end of Paul's narrative arc. I don't hate the later books, but can understand why Villeneuve is so adamant that his adaptation will be a trilogy ending with Messiah.
I half suspect Villeneuve may even go so far as to kill off Paul to make it impossible for endless follow-up films by less talented directors, as we've seen with the Star Wars franchise.
Honestly i think Denis will make some creative changes. The first will be that the holy war is still ongoing during the film. Because to go from the amazing heights of part 2 to a political shadow thriller will be to jarring to an average audience. He can then have the plot and the intrigue set amongst the backdrop of the insanity of the holy war. That with each planet’s obliteration Paul becomes more and more disillusioned and depressed by his actions and his position. I think it will culminate with a plot that will have another grand battle for Arakeen, Paul is then blinded but stops the war and chooses exile. The final shot is him walking blind into the desert of Arrakis with hundreds of of Shai Halud escorting him to his true destiny. I trust Denis he’s said he won’t shoot it until he has the perfect screenplay. And he himself has spoken of what the holy war would look like. I agree this could be a new era in filmmaking after this. I’ve read the book yearly since childhood and I had happy tears in my eyes as did my brother that Dune was done so perfectly watching Dune part 1 and 2.
Brilliance and there were zero spoilers...Thanks!🎉🎉🎉😊
Yesssss been waiting for this one 👏👏👏🙌
Personally I think that, like the Syfy channel did. It would be better if they combined Dune Messiah and Children of Dune into a couple of movies. In fact, If they did do that I think there would even have enough material to make three movies.
Dune 2 wasn’t a sequel, it was part 2
It's a MOVIE sequel that adapts the 2nd half of the first Dune BOOK
I am ambivalent about the changes to the book and the fact that whole scenes will never surface for part 1 and 2. Dune Messiah and Children of Dune go into some weird territory plot wise and I'm not really sure if modern script writers and DV will stick the landing. I hope that Chani doesn't fill the role of Korba (old style Fremen that aid Irulan and Mohiam in their plot) in Part 3 and Irulan stays close to the book as the mother figure for the twins she becomes as expiation for her role in the conspiracy.
Thank you for your commitment to the sci-fi community and those of us that read Chakobsa daily, lol. This video was great!
They say Dune is the the Lord of the Rings of the modern era! 🤤
I totally agree. I think Chani will already be pregnant from the sequal and she comes back. Alia is the most difficult part in my opinion.
Have you read the book?
If you're after Chani and Paul baby, it has at least one
Excellent video. Well said.
Wonderful analysis and detailed breakdown of how Dune Messiah could become a movie. I hope your visions become reality.
I just finished reading Dune Messiah. My initial reaction is pretty much the same as yours. I wanted more from it, but still enjoyed the different ideas presented in it. I’m sure on a reread I’ll enjoy it more.
It was a crap book. Only Dune was a hit. I don't think we need another movie that removes our heros. Disney Star was did that already.
I love your speculation on Denis interpretation, I would be happy with whatever he does though. Part 2 was worth it.
Solid take, I really enjoyed this video. Thanks.
I have a whole theory worked out, but I think with the change of Chani’s character, she’s going to be part of the Fedaykin conspiracy against Paul that he can’t see.
I hope this story goes all the way through the last book. For those who haven't read them, they go way past these two parts of book one. Herbert's imagination was so creative...and groovy!
Dune 2 was everything i wanted from a Dune movie interpretation (especially the Giger-esque Harkonnen scenes). I actually really enjoyed Dune Messiah with the old power-players conspiring while Paul becomes the tyrant of his nightmares. There's plenty of scope for spectacle with Edric the Guild navigator, morphing face dancers and the stone-burner scene.
Dune Messiah would certainly be a slower, more story-driven affair, the come-down from the pinnacle that was Dune: Part II. I imagine its tone would not be unlike Dune: Part I - a more contemplative and moodier film with a slow, build-up toward the dramatic, powerful conclusion. For those people who go to see Dune: Messiah looking for another war movie, they will likely be very disappointed. As far as Paul's character arc goes, the only fiction character with one similar in recent memory is Daenerys Targaryen from Game of Thrones. I hope Villenueve can land the ending better than that...
There still can be a lot of action, as Paul has to thwart multiple conspirations and assassination attempts.
I love Part 1 and still currently enjoyed it more than Part 2 (haven’t rewatched yet). So I’m excited to see what Denis chooses to do for Messiah.
Eren Yeager from Attack on Titan is basically anime Paul Atreides.
I’m so excited to see the third movie. The first and second ones were so good! I’ve been a fan of Dune since I was a teenager. Saw the 80s movie version and the television version for children of Dune. There were problems with both, but I like them both. Never thought that, the books could actually be properly presented until now.
I can already imagine the tragic ending scene of paul dying in the desert in the low sun with hans zimmers score
AH!!! but we know he is not dead... because we have read the books..
@@beverlynjackson9580 i hate that he reappeared in heretics only to die again stupidly. Plus denis said hes not maki by anything else after that, so in the movie universe hes gonna die and not come back, which is infinitely better
After Messiah I'd like to see someone take up the prequel books co-written by Herbert's son: Dune House Atreides, House Harkonnen and House Corrino. We get the backstory on all the politics of the Empire revolving around Duke Leto Atreides before the birth of Paul.
The only way to go. The later books suck
@@TheWtikaiser Sure, lol. Because the Herbert & Anderson books have much much better reputation in the community, right? 😂😂😂😂😂🤦🏼
Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson books made me a fan of Dune. I wouldn’t be opposed to this!
The Dune series is one I have read and reread about every other year. Even the Dune books Frank Herberts son Brian wrote with Kevin J. Anderson were interesting enough that I have read them at least 5 times.
As for Dune Messiah, That one is written in such a way that working it into a movie can be done in an almost infinite number of ways. We will have to see what Villeneuve shows as his interpretation.
I clicked on this but since I havent read the books, I have no idea what happens next. Still gave you a like for the effort you put into making the video but g2g 😂
I can see Messiah and Children of Dune being blended together to form the final masterpiece.
Messiah will be hard to create in movie. How do u film all the internal thoughts? I hope they can
I just don't see how they'll do the time jump with timothee, and I have hard time believing Duncan is coming back for the movie.
I'm most excited about Dune: Messiah because I would like to see Denis explores the idea of the Ghola; a character described rather roughly, but it being a copy of someone from Paul's past. In this case, a copy of Duncan Idaho; Paul's friend and Master of Assassins dedicating himself to the protection of the Atreides family. It's this idea of a clone of someone that Paul knows intimately but has to go through the process of bringing out the remembered personality and memory of Duncan Idaho of Dune and latter books in the series.
Duncan becomes due to his resurrection the singular person who surpasses the Atreides; while he himself was never an Atreides by birth; as is described in latter books, Duncan becomes the tangible representation of what Dune conveys, the eternal spirit of rediscovery. Each character towards the end of Dune, each discovers something inside themselves that yearns for self-reflection. In Duncan's character we discover the man who dedicated his many lives to the idea of being the quintessential Atreides Stewart, he did what he always did, for love and honor of a family that took him in and gave him a family to care for and nurture throughout the centuries of the Dune Universe!
How awesome would it be if we saw Leto again through vision Paul has and they have a really tough convo between father and son.
If anyone can do it, it's Denis Villeneuve💯
I have a feeling we’ll see the book split into two films again.
The Sy-Fy mini series sequel, Children of Dune, basically does Dune Messiah with the the first of the 3 chapters, then does Children of Dune with the remaining two.
They might incorporate some of Paul's Jihad, since we mainly hear about it from Paul, Farok and some other characters. There is a lot of storyline in a small book but still 1 film is enough
I believe the next book (Dune: Messiah) will be another 2 part movie. There is so much to take place in it, between the wars, children of Paul, little sisters being reverend mother strength, betrayal.... at least two movies.
That's insane. The book is TINY.
Nope
I have a suspicion we will see Messiah and Children meshed together in some way. Fingers crossed that regardless, the other 3 books get included in the series too
I was just thinking the other day, they should get Guillermo del Toro to design Edric... be like Shape of (Spice)Water ammirite?!!
That's really an amazing idea!
He would be perfect for the job.
There's a lot placed in names
Fir instance everyone knows Arrakis but do you know there was another sci- fi story about a protagonist in search of identity
The Earth Sea trilogy about a wizard named Ged
I'm worried about the age of characters / passing of time. When will the third movie be set? 12 years after Paul becomes Emperor? But then Alia will be only 12 and there's no way they'll show a romantic relationship between a 12yo and Idaho - and nor should they. But if they set it 16 or 18 years later, then that would be a problem too cos Chalamet is too young and too baby faced to pull that off.
Alia ages faster than normal due to her unfortunate fetal poisoning.
Doesn't Chani take the spice essence???
Maybe JJ's vision for SW ST was heavily inspired by the original Dune, but Lucas stayed away from such a bleak story for a reason: he wanted kids to have a hero that could forgive the past.
Not kill the future.
There should be more explanations of What the GOLDEN PATH is about. Prescience is the ability to see into future. And the use of Spice over time( in case of Spacing Guild vast amounts they used) enhanced this ability. That's a specific danger. As the devices known as hunter seekers will develop to point where locate and decimate the human race
Actually, I hope they spend less money on it so they can take more risks and make it more 'weird'.
It's not a blockbuster type of story, I would like them to cater more to us who have read the books rather than the more general audience.
Oh I think they are definitely going to go more into that like you say. Messiah is definitely a book that is more character-driven, mainly one location and also strange at times. But I don't think that restricts them from creating scale with the sets and injecting a few more scenes than the kind of action we saw in part 2. That's what I was mainly getting at. I hope that they keep the approach to Messiah and themes of the book like you say though.
Being a great entertainment, “Dune” also showed us the concern about the civilizational limits at that time.
However, we have IT & AI improving wealth creation & distribution plus human abilities & cooperation.
The original author neutralized political & religious issues with ingenious settings & tragic development.
The director will make a more humane, hopeful, and informative movie adaptation for the 21st century.
The fact that it'll be called Messiah will already face criticism but Denis is showing us..why..its the message Herbert wants us to know and realize about..its not a "white savior"...it shows the dangers of charismatic leaders across the morals of actions of "Leaders"
Theyre probably going to rewrite jessicas role since her actress is really talented and popular, they will probably rework a lot of Alias earlier scenes to be Jessica Scenes.
I feel like the film will probably open with a monolog by an adult Alia and some kind of epic montage of the atrocities of paul atredies' jihad intercut with character moments that help set up the emotional themes for the novel proper. Then probably cut to 10 or 15+ years into the jihad were we see its end and Alia's actress is digitally deaged to look like hollywoods "ambiguously teenaged" age so she can still act out her later parts of the book with certain characters in a way thats less uncomfortable for the reader.
Also i predict that Hayts actor will be made to look younger, probably by having his actor with a shorter beard and hair, plus makeup or cgi depending on budget.
Maybe they will give Timothy Charmander some extra face wrinkle makeup and an angry beard if the final timeskip puts the story over 15 years from the end of Dune
I think a huge factor with how the 3rd movie will formulate the plot is if Denis Villeneuve intends to continue the story into the 3rd and 4th books, which in my recollection are very odd and will probably turn off a lot of casual viewers, or end it as a trilogy with book 2. If this was a Disney IP they'll probably want to milk it for all it's worth and even going into the side story books like Chapterhouse.
Messiah is a great drama but it would be great if children of Dune and God emperor were made into films this would truly complete Frank Herbert's story in regards to our relationship to power and the environment that we live in.
The Dune books kept getting progressively stranger as they went on , Dune was a masterpiece
Messiah was an introduction to what followed, but it wasn't a great read, sure some parts were fascinating, Duncan and Alia looking for clues, the dwarf, and Scytale, but so much was also a bit rambling. I would guess a lot of that will be missing from the film anyway. I found part 2 to be dissapointing in the way some pivotal scenes were altered to no real purpose, especially from the confrontaion of the emperor on. As for the books, I enjoyed Children of dune as the best story, a good mix of everything. The films so far though do score absolutely top notch with the visuals, fantastic imagining of craft and the worms were trully awesome.
Good video
Glad you enjoyed
I think Chani needs to become super prescient. It would fit with her tears being magical
I think she is a priestess of some kind in the books. There is speculation that her tears weren't magical, but Paul and Jessica knew it would fulfill the prophecy if it appeared as if they were, so his dramatic awakening was actually staged.
Pretty sure that's not gonna happen. She's not a pivotal character within the story - she's just kind of there but then again, so are most of the other characters.
@@laurenherrmann_videos I definitely thought of that. Also maybe Jessica is adding to the prophecy as she goes along
@@hvitekristesdodAs someone who read the books, this aint happening
I’m not confident that Jason Momoa has the acting chops to bring the complexity of Hayt’s character.
You need someone with an incredible dramatic ability, to be able to show inner conflict like Timothee did as Paul.
But I also don’t think recasting is an option either… unless, the ghola is a younger version of Duncan and they recast that way. That would also address the age difference with Alia.
given the way BR 2049 went, I think Dune Messiah could be the best of the three.
The books of Dune have a lot of passionate fans... Not sure how well any departures from the main story line, would be received.
Someone needs to make an adaptation of "children" it's such an amazing book. We need to see Leto II take the golden path.
It's been done. James McAvoy as Leto II.
@troffle ya I love it. We need a modern iteration tho.
@@simonkammeyer4334 No we don't.
What are you going to get from a "modern iteration" you haven't got already? "Adaptation for a modern audience"? That just makes it dumber. Better special effects? What was wrong with the effects from the last one? What will a "modern iteration" do that hasn't been done already?
Confirmed. Peter Dinklage please. Please we need him in this movie. God bless the maker and his water 🙏
Um, why?
@@gagalover2k10 have to read the book. Not going to spoil it for you
@@tomassali8870 messiah? Yeah I’m reading through it atm, not finished it yet
@@gagalover2k10 let me know after you finish the book whether you want Peter Dinklage in the movie 😉
@@tomassali8870 will do 🤙
I want part three to hit billon in box office 🎉🎉🎉 we want more promotion
I would say for certain, and although GRRM doesn't want to admit to it, the concept of the "faceless men" of Braavos, are just a straight out steal from Bene Tleilax, their face dancers and later the advanced face dancers that end up as the real "eternal enemy" in the original books. Scytale is just a teaser of what is about to come in Heretics and Chapterhouse.
Sadly, I do not think we will see any movie adaptation of these, since you first have to get past God Emperor, and I cannot conceive of anybody pulling that off, whether as a TV show or a big screen movie.
I love the weird shit in the Dune series. I’m very happy that these films have done well. It means that Dune gets the attention that it deserves however, so far, these films are definitely not wanting to show what makes Dune, Dune, and that’s the weird shit. I hope we get to see Edric in the next film.. and not some normal looking person floating around in a spice gas filled tank(a grounded version). So I’m hoping Dennis’ rendition of Messiah lets at least some of Dune’s colors fly in the next film. It could wow people or scare them away…. I mean, how are they going to explain Duncan’s reappearance?? 😆
I’m hoping we see the holy war play out in real time and then dive into its after effects since it really isn’t that detailed in the book
I think that the time gap will be bigger, because we need anya taylor joy as paul’s sister, so idk maybe 20 years. If thats the case theyre gonna have to recast paul, so idk how they will handle that
11:13 It makes no sense that they are against computers and artificial insemination but are ok with making gholas
What comes out of the ghola "tanks" are also human. Being against computers is a religious injunction after violent war.
@@troffle yeah but again what about paul wanting to give irulan ‘his seed’ lol so he didnt have to have sex w her and theyre all against it. Bringing dead people back to life that are not exactly who they were before seems wrong too
They probably shouldn’t make it. Humanity is not ready for this.
From a confusing plot to a Greek tragedy to a starry eyed twink getting his eyes lasered out of his head, humanity is not ready.
The ideas which was new and interesting during the release of the first 2 Dune books is a norm in this era.....that is why I believe that the ideology behind Dune book series is being over hyped.....all the "not so" subtle commentary on Religion, Preachers, Political systems, false prophets, fallen heroes have been talked about immensely and even depicted in movies......this is exactly the time people aren't interested in these kind of stories, however intellectual or smart you make it sound
We crave a 'heroes journey' now more than ever before because every aspect of our society has been villainized
I'm betting you right now.....Dune Messiah might get critical support because DV is one of the best filmmakers in Hollywood but the general audience won't love it as much as netizens believe
Messiah, is my favorite Dune book.
I mean, in what way is it a sequel?
And wtf are they gona do w paul n chanis relationship
Maybe they'll let chani die in childbirth during the time jump.
@@Battle_OneWell, she DOES die in childbirth - the SECOND time, with the twins Leto II and Ghanima (Paul and Chani's first son is killed in infancy.)
Hey, Everyone! Let's all have one more big push and all go see Magnificent DUNE: PART TWO again! We should show more appreciation for Denis' genius and hard work and help ensure filmmakers have enough to make DUNE: MESSIAH even more Magnificent!
If Paul sought to dethrone the Bene Jeseret (or however you spell them) then how can we see him as something to be warned about? His success is to be applauded, making him messianic in spite of their manipulative “prophecies”. Seems to me Herbert accidentally made the case for messianic figures.
I have always been a fan of Alia, and since "Menu", I am into Anya, so here we go...
i dont want it to feel like cinema i want it to feel like im there idc bout action pauls internal turmoil is too great hayt is a great character he made my imagination when introduced intrigued beyond, plus its so tragic and i love that stuff
I'll believe they're adapting more Dune Novels when they're actually released
Why?
Will it be shown through direct stimulation of the hippocampus, like a waking dream?
Frank Herbert wrote the Dune books as a warning against charismatic leaders.
He doesn't praise and put Islam, he warns against it.
He does not specify a religion in the first book until you get to the APPENDICES. The religion he DOES specify comes from thousands of years of mixing a whole bunch of religions together.
And even then, it's a revised "Orange Catholic Bible" from a committee that included the previous religions of "Zensunni Wanderers from the first, second and third Islamic movements; the Navachristianity of Chusuk, the Buddislamic Variants of the types dominant at Lankiveil and Sikun, the Blend Books of the Mahayana Lankavatara, the Zen Hekiganshu of III Delta Pavonis, the Tawrah and Talmudic Zabur surviving on Salusa Secundus, the pervasive Obeah Ritual, the Muadh Quran with its pure Ilm and Fiqh preserved among the pundi rice farmers of Caladan, the Hindu outcroppings found all through the universe in little pockets of insulated pyons, and finally, the Butlerian Jihad".
The last comment on the Fremen attitude is "And because you are here, because you have the religion, victory cannot evade you in the end".
The last comment on the Bene Gesserit attitude and the one Herbert talked about most often was "When religion and politics ride the same cart, when that cart is driven by a living holy man (baraka), nothing can stand in their path.”
Don't go putting "he warns against Islam" into this discussion.
Children of Dune is where the series gets good
Although I understand that this new iteration of Dune is a trilogy, I absolutely prefer the ending of David Lynch’s original adaptation to the ending of Dune part 2, which is basically a set piece by set piece remake of Lynch’s film retold over 5 hours with better visual effects. The final knife fight and cliffhanger end let down both new chapters. In 1984, Paul Atreides shoves his tribal knife into Feyd Rautha’s throat, and then looks down on his corpse and explodes his chest with the power of his Voice, no Weirding module required. Then his crazy Heretic Sister Witch proclaims he is the Kwisatz Haderach and it starts to rain on Dune. It’s a better ending sequels be dammed