Errinwright was a monster, but he was right about the secretary general. I think it makes sense that his arrest here, underscored by the secretary general immediately proving him right with his comment to Anna, feels somewhat bittersweet.
This is true. But this only applies to people who follow the names of the cast closely. I totally missed it the first few times through when I watched the series. I only because aware of this "spoiler" when I started watching Expanse reactions, and this spoiler warning was posted habitually. But the spoiler warning itself is a spoiler in and of itself! It can only mean one thing, so pointing it out risks ruining it.
Fun watching this one with you. I agree that seeing all of these arcs come together is fantastic. We don't see this in TV or movies very much anymore. "This is Amos. He is my best friend in the whole world." This line and the interaction between Amos and Prax immediately after are one of my favorite moments, ever. He is that guy. I really appreciate your perspective of how family is a driving factor in so many of these characters and their actions. I hadn't thought about it like that until you mentioned it. Thank you. Look forward to the next episode. See you then.
For Amos’s arc, a lot of people describe him developing a conscience/moral compass but I’ve always taken it closer to what you said- he’s learning to trust the one he already has. His tragedy has always seemed more that he clearly has a very low opinion of himself, especially his ability to make decisions on his own. He’s had to do pretty dark things for survival and distrusting his own moral sense is probably self protective, if he believed his own ability to see what is good or bad that would include judging his own actions much more painfully.
That's quite insightful and I do agree. Psychologically 'confusion' can sometimes be the mind's off switch to having to live with horrific things a person has had to do or simply survive. In Amos we see that rare journey: A fully broken person being slowly mended through a series of consequential relationships and opportunities. Indeed, when he takes Mai's hand this is the first time he remembers the preciousness of a child. It's heartbreaking but so full of hope.
Bobbie understood that the plan was "If we encounter a hybrid we run," she just understood "running" as toward the danger, the way that any marine would.
The image of Mao being brought low before Avasarala, who is wearing the racing suit of the daughter he sacrificed was chefs kiss. And also the turnaround from Amos upsetting the refugee child on Tycho and being shellshocked by it to being entrusted with taking care of children by a father was such a good arc.
Great reaction! In this episode was my favorite moment of the whole series and it not " I am that guy." My favorite is Amos telling Prax " You're not that guy. " because he trying to save his best friends soul! And in order to do that Amos the reluctant damaged hero takes his place because he needs Prax to be the father to Mea with his soul intact.
Every once in a while I dont like when they use Amos as a sin-eater to keep someone "good" from having to do a necessary bad thing. But this, the clearest example of it, I love.
9:10 point of clarification, it's not minister of defense, it's minister of everything, Secretary General is the U.N. equivalent of a President. 28:19 It could have to do with where the protomolecule hit the Agatha King, on the scopes we see the area close to the engines alight with the blue, it could be that the shot hit straight to the reactor, giving the molecule a direct source of energy to feed on making it grow exponentially, while the tiny piece of molecule still on the Roci is not fed like that. just my own theory. This episode got some really good lines, "I am that guy" and "If he spoke to a janitor, he'd be passionately declaiming about a mop." 32:49 It was Amazon and Jeff Bezos, but correct, the production company behind the show dropped it after season 3, but even before ending filming (or shortly after, I am not entirely sure) it had been picked up again, it was a very smooth transition, almost unheard of in these things.
Filming had ended before Amazon picked it up. In fact, we had information from one of the set workers that Alcon was only days away from striking the the Expanse sets to make room for other productions when Amazon picked up the show.
The writers have not forgotten the Protomolecule on the Roci. But the Protomolecule is doing its work, and all the Protomolecule bits are in communication and doing the same thing for that work at the same time if it's in position to do so. That's why Katoa was in a "disassembly" phase at the same time the Protomolecule on Venus was in a "disassembly" phase. It's a question whether Proto-Katoa would have been inherently violent, and there's been fan discussion about that. Proto-Katoa seemed more hesitant and questioning in its movements. It didn't even seem truly violent when it was tussling with Bobbie. There is discussion about why Proto-Katoa looked upward. Was it because it heard the "Up" command, or was it because the Katoa component was taken by the awesomeness of being out on an open horizon? Either way, we know there was still something of Katoa left, because the hybrid's brain stem splashed human blood when Bobbie shot it. The reason Prax started sweating so much (in my head canon) is because in that moment he made the decision to kill Strickland. I also think Amos was following Prax's moral lead, but as Prax's "best friend in the whole world" (a heart-rendering moment for me), Amos also saved Prax's moral base. And, yes, Amos' concept of saving a friend is more sophisticated than one might think. This scene gives the audience an excellent emotional one-two punch. You make a good point that there is a continuing thread of consciousness of children in this series. We saw that also with Champus on Ganymede last season...children get rescued first. Avasarala was wearing Julie's racing suit when Mao was forced to his knees before her. The necessity of rushing the story of book three did require leaving some plot on the floor, especially in developing the motivation of one particular character. You'll probably pinpoint that yourself that over the course of the episodes. The series was picked up by Amazon for the next three seasons, with Jeff Bezos himself making the public announcement.
The thing about that whole "I am that guy" scene... It's not just a great one-liner, but actually a fascinating psychological case study. Amos, despite being as broken of a human being as he is, recognises that for Prax to kill would damage him fundamentally, so he intervenes. That he recognises this and acts upon it is amazing. Then, of course, once he's defused that particular situation, well, he's still Amos and he sees any person who would do this sort of thing to children as something that doesn't need to exist and immediately rectifies the situation. And I have waited so long for you to get to that scene..! It's simply sublime. And no, you weren't tripping. There is indeed a piece of protomolecule on Rocinante.
I always find myself compelled to protest any description of Amos as "damaged". It is hard to maintain a productive and happy society if violence is cosidered to be an acceptable way to solve disagreements. This causes society to aggressively condemn anyone who immediately resorts to violence as a way to resovle problrms (except, of course, when that society goes to war). Just as, during wartime, the other side is depicted as evil demons who eat baby livers for breakfast, in peacetime violence is depicted as the product of a mentally ill person. Sane people are all required to be docile and non-violent as a pre-condition for being labeled "sane". Amos, to me, always seemed like somebody who grew up in a violent culture where murdering and beating the shit out of people was highly valued and just part of normal, daily life. He's adjusted very well to living in a much more normal society. He only kills or pummels those who need it, and looks to Naomi or Holden for some guidance as to how to live successfully in this relativelyt peaceful new world within which he now finds himself living. He is neither damaged nor psychopathic. He a perfectly sane and inherently good man who has learned in the past, despite how people might want to believe otherwise, that killing someone is a highly effective solution to many sorts of problems. I think that scares people a bit, so they have to label him as an emotionally damaged person. Now, if we had ever seen him whacking a character because they put the toilet paper roll on the dispenser backwards, I'd agree he's got a screw loose. A lot depends upon where you find yourself living. Think back to the lobby of the Blue Falcon. It was Amos who knew something bad was developing before anybody else did. He was the most sane and most effectual person in the room at that moment.
@@Yesquire0There's some scenes in season 5 (that I'm obviously not going to specify) that do say it's not just a matter of being comfortable violence, that he does in fact have some serious issues with being a moral person and latching himself onto an external conscience is his coping mechanism with what he recognises as a problem in his own character. For the record, I do agree with you that there's signs that he's an inherently good person, or would be if his past hadn't damaged him so much. As things stand, when things are sufficiently clear - child-abuse being the perfect example - he's able to recognise what's wrong and what's right and doesn't hesitate to act on it. But when things are murkier than that, he tends to default to cold-blooded survival mode and needs someone else around to help him negotiate life in a less psychopathic way. He's not insane, really, just emotionally straight-forward to an abnormal degree. And yes, he does have incredibly sharp instincts when it comes to violence and violent people, because that was a survival trait for him growing up. And that's what makes him such a great character. He's very flawed, but self-aware enough to realise this and disciplined enough to develop some very unusual coping mechanisms that let him go through life with leaving not much more wreckage behind him than he needs to.
@@Thanaeon Reading your reply, I'm not at all sure you disagreed with anything I said. You just seem to want to hang on to the idea that a violent person must by emotionally disturbed because he is OK with being violent when he thinks its necessary, whereas I'm not going to describe that as an emotional problem. I don't think Amos latches on to people like Naomi because he realizes he's not quite right in the feels. I think he's smart enough to realize his past mode of behavior is not optimal in his present circumstances and thet he nees a guide to help him get through this new territory. Who on the crew of the Rocinante would you want on your team if you knew you were in for a fight? If you say "Amos", then you need to re-think your opinion about his supposed mental/emotional problems.
When Amos tells Mei that Amos is his best friend in the world, I also think it's true that Prax is Amos' best friend in the world. I don't think Amos knows many people he can genuinely call friends. I think Prax was also a catalyst for Amos' growth and empathy. I couldn't imagine Amos having that level of empathy and awareness for anyone else.
@@Yesquire0Please re-watch season 5. You'll find stuff there relating to Amos that definitely goes beyond "he's comfortable with using violence for morally justifiable ends." That's not the problem. There's one line in particular that he says to himself that's him realising that he needs his external conscience around - not quite in those very words, but that's the very clear sentiment expressed, and that's what his damage is. Compare with Holden - halfway into season 2, he's grown comfortable with using violence to achieve his goals, but he tries much harder to talk his way out of it first, and he generally has a better handle on when it's necessary or even an appropriate response. Left to his own devices, Amos may give one calm warning that the other person may not even recognise the severity of before he goes off. (There's another symptom as well - it's not just his willingness to use violence, but also his escalation pattern. The normal human psychology will usually go through a pattern of escalation that goes roughly from words to harsh words to threats to pushing the other person around to escalating levels of violence. Amos instead just skips over as many intermediary steps as he feels are necessary and goes for what he seems like the probable end result of the escalation scenario. Which isn't insane, exactly, and there's in truth a cold rationality to his way of thinking, but it's also not a normal way of thought for humanity, for whom that kind of domination ladder is the natural way our instincts work with one another.) Yes, faced with the possibility of violence, I'd like Amos at my back. But I would not trust him to judge when violence was necessary in complex circumstances. In simple circumstances, sure. But there's plenty of instances in the show where the other members of the crew have to hold him back. (And even more instances where he's ready to resort to violence, then looks at his fellow crew members, takes his cues from them and stands down.) Also note: preparing for the role, the actor went to a psychologist to get hints on how to act the character's trauma. Which is pretty explicit that it's a mental health issue. This doesn't make Amos a bad person, to be clear - in fact, his willingness to confront his problems and work around them is admirable and a big part of why I love the character so much.
Another great reaction. Been waiting to see this one...and your reaction to "I am that guy." To update you on the timeline of cancelation BEFORE production began on S3, the producers felt there was a strong possibility they would not be renewed by SyFy. Therefore, they constructed the season to end with the close of book 3, since it resolved several arcs, while leaving a good starting place for future seasons IF they got renewed. It was while the season was airing (well after production and post-production) that the cancelation was announced. It only took a couple of weeks for Amazon (Jeff Bezos, NOT Elon Musk) to pick it up. Many people comment on the changes they perceive when Amazon picked it up, but it’s important to note that neither SySy nor Amazon owned the show. They merely bought the right to air/stream the show (and put their branding on it) for a specific period of time. The show (and rights to the books) are owned by Alcon Entertainment., which is responsible for the show’s production. One reason for the consistent good quality of the show is the fact that almost 90% of the people (cast and crew) who started with the show, stayed with it for all 6 seasons.
We, being me especially lol, also maintain hope that once the rights to revert back to Alcon, that they'll successfully shop it around and be able to get the final 3 seasons made. I audiobooked them for the first time recently and OMG they may be the best arc, and that's saying alot cuz I love season 5.
@@Jackomack Alcon have been trying to get Amazon to release the rights back to them early because they have some offers from other streaming services. Alcon has been tight lipped about exactly what that something is, but they're still actively trying to get something else Expanse made. Could be a the final three books adapted to three or more seasons of a show, could be movies, could be a spin off of some sort. No one knows at this point, but they wouldn't be trying to get the rights back early if they didn't have solid offers on the table.
"BEFORE production began on S3, the producers felt there was a strong possibility they would not be renewed by SyFy" - Not true. Or can you provide a credible source such as an interview where they actually confirm that?
@@amarokorama Multiple interviews with Ty, Daniel and Naren at various FanCom panels, plus comments on multiple TY AND THAT DUY podcasts. Also, keep in mind that filming is completed more than 6 months before airing ergo the plan for the episode arca are set well in advance.
@@TArnoldFerguson I know that filming is completed months before airing. That's not the point. The point is your claim that they structured season 3 the way they did because "they felt there was a strong possibility they would not be renewed by SyFy". I say that's untrue. You haven't provided a source. Saying "multiple interviews and Ty & That Guy podcasts" is no conrecte source. I've read and watched all of those, too. And I can give concrete sources: EW: First off, you really sped through book 3, Abaddon’s Gate, doing the whole thing in seven episodes - much faster than the first two books. Why the accelerated pace for what is, in my opinion, one of the best books in the series? Naren Shankar: Book 3 was a challenging thing to adapt. What was tricky about Abaddon’s Gate was that it starts with an entirely new cast of characters. It kind of builds up to getting them through the Ring. It’s more philosophical than intellectual. The space where they go into, it’s sort of the most… I don’t want to use this term disparagingly at all, but sort of science-fiction-y thing we have done in the run of the show. Which tends to be sort of more like science-realistic, or at least tries to achieve that. So for a lot of reasons, we felt like we had 13 episode seasons, we were gonna finish off Caliban’s War mid-season. We took the approach that we compressed it and we launched Anna, who was the character, really kind of the focus character in Abaddon’s Gate, early in the season, which we did because she is not actually in the second book at all. EW: Yeah, you gave her a prequel, basically. NS: That’s right, we gave her a history, we gave her a connection to Earth and the government, and we changed her backstory, but that would enable us to get through the end of that because it was such a great season-ender. It was such a momentous thing and such a huge game-changer for the world of The Expanse. *We always felt like that would be a great place to end the season.* So I think it was all those factors together that led to the decision to compress that narrative into seven episodes. I think it surprised people that we were able to get all the way through Abaddon at the end of the season because it didn’t fit our pattern so far. The way we approach it in the [writer's] room is we try to tell the story that we want to tell over the course of the season, *irrespective of where it lands at the end of the book, the middle of the book, two-thirds of the way through the book, or a whole book*. We’ve often pulled materials forward from later novels and to earlier novels, building novellas into it. It changes kind of season to season. We certainly have a long-term plan of what the show is over the next several seasons, but I don’t want to give too much away to people. - Entertainment Weekly interview with Naren Shankar "The Expanse showrunner explains season 3 finale and previews season 4" Q: Do you remember any moments in the writers room that stirred up a considerable amount of debate in adapting the story for television and diverging from the source material? Naren Shankar: There were several, I would say, and they weren't gigantic, they were all situational.(...) I remember when we were getting to Abaddon's Gate, I was talking about doing the adaptation and *Daniel goes, "Well, we could just skip that book entirely,"* and I was like "...What?!" [laughs] He went, "It's very intellectualized and academic." [laughs] - cbr(dot)com/the-expanse-naren-shankar-series-finale-interview Ergo: they didn't compress book 3 into the second half of season 3 out of any nebulous fear of cancellation. They did so because it they felt it made the most sense for the story. The only reason why the show's seasons didn't align with the books in the first place is that Shankar couldn't adapt book 1 (and do it justice) in the 10 episodes they were given for season 1. Season 3 / book 3 allowed them to get into alignment.
Amos leveraging his trauma and loss of innocence to be a shield for those who are still innocent was a beautiful moment. Wes Chatham continues as deeply impressive as Amos, able to deliver what could he standard tough-guy lines with a chilling matter of fact tone. I think Errinwright was genuine in his desire to fight for earth. The divisive tribalism instinct is the problem, as soon as there are two camps, you get conflict. We're seeing the protomolecule learn. It hijacked Julie's personhood to use as a pilot. As Mao learned about it, it learned about us. It deconstructed the Arborghast, and suddenly it's absorbing and spreading across ships instead of just organic substances, and then it makes it's own ship. I wonder what it's learned from being half human? You're right about it being amoral - it's like a builder has turned up to work, and there's a bunch of heaps of bricks that for some reason don't like being pulled apart and reformed into a wall. Wierd bricks, huh? Oh well. RIP Cotyar, a real one. It's nice to see Nick Tarabay being able to play a good guy for once! Secretary-General Sorrento-Gillis us so empty the SG's initials are SG. S-G S-G. Avasarala called him a bobble-head. Thanks for sharing your reaction and your takes! Please do not watch the credits on the next episode, but you're fine after that.
His first name is Estaban! But you make a very hilarious point about his initials!! I never noticed that before and I cannot count how many times I have seen this show now...
Re the Agatha King, I think Alex postulated that it spread faster because learned about human ships from dissembling the Arboghast over Venus. As to why the same is not happening with the Rocinante - good question!
You are thinking about the protomolecule under the Roci's deck and wondering what it is foreshadowing. That shows that you understand thematic tropes and "Chekov's Gun."
This episode! It's so so good, one of my favorite on television...The characters do have great arcs. That's the strength of this show, they stay with you long after you've finished it.
You commented on what a beautiful view the exterior shot of Io after Bobbie and the Hybrid fell. Did you notice the giant active volcano plume in the backgound? Io is known for it's giant volcanoes with plumes that can be seen from space.
Anna realized that the sec general hasn't changed and Errinwright was absolutely right about him. He thanked Anna for delivering the message that he thinks will exonerate him. Again no concern for the destruction, just how it affects his ratings and legacy. What the SG fails to realize is that the buck stops with him and that he's ultimately responsible for everything that went down under his watch.
Sadavir is Errinwright's first name :) The Secretary-General is called Esteban Sorrento-Gillis. (Defense Minister was the title of the Martian guy Errinwright killed, Korshunov). This is probably my favourite "ending" in show, not just ending book 2 and season 2.5, but basically also the first "phase" of the show. The remaining 3 phases each have a bit of a different feel to them, while still being The Expanse of course (though many people seem to like book / season 4 aka phase 3 least).
So, now you've seen the single most famous line from this show. "I Am That Guy" I've waited until this episode before mentioning this trivia There is a TH-cam channel called Ty&That Guy. The channel is hosted by Wes Chatam (Amos...aka That Guy) and Ty Frank. Frank is one of the 2 guys who wrote The Expanse, under the name James S.A. Corey. On the channel Chatam and Frank breakdiown Expanse episodes and they also react/breakdown other movies. Check it out if that interest you.
The hybrids own sense of purpose is really just survival. Nothing more. Remember, it is a man made creation, not the Protomolecule's. If the Protomolecule gains full control, it would simply disassemble and repurpose for its own mission. And Errinwright's entire drive was to get Mars back under Earth's boot before Mars could do the same to them.
About Adm Nguyen’s description of Mars, Nguyen is the epitome of the angry military careerist traumatized by loss and probably survivors guilt who is dealing with it by hating anyone related to Mars and wanting revenge. That on top of the very real tendency for militaries (and nations overall) to dehumanize their enemy and ascribe all negative traits possible to justify wanting to kill them. It’s not wrong that there is a very regimented military focus to a lot of Mars society but imperialistic (at least any more so than the original Imperialists: Earth governments), bloodthirsty, etc descriptions are coming from very biased sources. All our sources so far to know what Mars is like are either military/opposing government or belters who hate them as much as Earth for being their oppressors and just as much of a colonial power. The UNN hates them as a breakaway colony and also rival for resources of the belt, Belters hate them for being colonial oppressors leeching the immense wealth of the belt from those who’ve spent generations mining it for the planetary governments. Every Martian we’ve met has been part of the military, and either a front line commanding officer or an elite unit (Bobby’s Recon Marines are their best, tip of the spear special operations units). Alex is more laid back, but even he is a former military pilot with loyalty showing through even well after leaving the service and Mars behind. In its history as a breakaway colony of the single superpower (Hyperpower?) of the time, Earth government, Mars has a lot in common with the founding of the US and has good reason to be very defensive about its former ruler that wants it back. As a relatively young sovereign nation it also wants to flex its own power and independence exerting its own dominance over the Belt and pushing back against the UN. They also are living in a much more harsh environment where a higher amount of cohesiveness and nationalism is necessary to even survive, much less work toward a goal they’ve had since the first colonists on Mars. They are a culture that grew out of engineering and science teams who believed enough in the value of colonizing and eventually terraforming the planet to leave their far safer more welcoming planet behind so of course they would pass that unifying goal on to newcomers. From an outside perspective, it doesn’t take much negative bias to start to see them as insect like impersonal drones working for their “bad” government wanting only power and to replace the UN as a new Hegemon. That, rather than consider the Martians actually believing in the dream of a green mars like Avasarala’s murdered friend shared with his husband, the Mars naval officer who died as the main characters escaped with the now Roci, and we even saw Bobby visualizing when we were first introduced to her. To be clear though, the shows creators have even emphasized the UN and Mars do _not_ map to the US vs USSR or any other pair of historic rivals, they are each a mix of both the US and USSR and many others. That’s a big part of what I love so much about the show, the people (both individually and as societies) a have complex motivations and histories, do good and bad things for altruistic and selfish reasons all intermingled and flawed and very human. Even thematically, while it is very much in the “grittier” “darker” side of sci-fi for its corrupt politics and oppression/prejudice etc in full force, in many ways it’s also a very optimistic story particularly around the core crew’s relationships and struggles to do what they feel is right.
Great comments. My take for why Erinwright’s arrest wasn’t traditionally satisfying is that he was dead on in his critique of the Secretary-General’s weakness. Erinwright was flawed, too willing to conflate his personal ambition with his desire to protect the Earth and of course untethered from restraint in his actions. But there was I think a burning desire to protect Earth there in him. And the Secretary-General did not have a core belief like that. Taking Erinwright down was necessary and justified but the fact it was the weak Secretary-General doing it left me thinking about Erinwright’s merits at that moment.
Yes. Also, Anna's real quest in the plot was to bring Sorrento-Gillis to an understanding of the moral weight of his actions. The arrest of Errinwright wasn't a clear victory moment for Anna because Sorrento-Gillis hadn't learned his lesson. She's not satisfied, and we're not satisfied.
You nailed it with satisfying arcs and The Expanse is excellent in that regard. Unfortunately, a lot of modern writing really fumbles character arcs and motivations. They usually have interesting premises or outlines, but fail to really execute them, at least from what I've seen. Not to say that quality isn't out there, but a lot of the more mainstream projects, really suffer.
Some other great Expanse reactors include one who's just finished season 1 called Warp Reactor, some others who recently finished the show are The Review Crew and Ramblers Inc
![BOWKYLION - เจ้านายคะ (work-life imbalance) [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/6bFj8G2pOi4/mqdefault.jpg)
15:15
Wren: It's so satisfying when character arcs have a proper arc.
Everyone: It's so satisfying when TV shows are actually good.
Errinwright was a monster, but he was right about the secretary general. I think it makes sense that his arrest here, underscored by the secretary general immediately proving him right with his comment to Anna, feels somewhat bittersweet.
In the books, both Errinwright and Avarsarela refer to Secretary General Sorrento-Gilles as "The Bobblehead."
you put into words what I myself had trouble doing. thank you.
I think it's the next episode where you should avoid watching the opening credits
This is true.
But this only applies to people who follow the names of the cast closely. I totally missed it the first few times through when I watched the series. I only because aware of this "spoiler" when I started watching Expanse reactions, and this spoiler warning was posted habitually.
But the spoiler warning itself is a spoiler in and of itself! It can only mean one thing, so pointing it out risks ruining it.
Fun watching this one with you. I agree that seeing all of these arcs come together is fantastic. We don't see this in TV or movies very much anymore.
"This is Amos. He is my best friend in the whole world." This line and the interaction between Amos and Prax immediately after are one of my favorite moments, ever. He is that guy.
I really appreciate your perspective of how family is a driving factor in so many of these characters and their actions. I hadn't thought about it like that until you mentioned it. Thank you.
Look forward to the next episode. See you then.
For Amos’s arc, a lot of people describe him developing a conscience/moral compass but I’ve always taken it closer to what you said- he’s learning to trust the one he already has. His tragedy has always seemed more that he clearly has a very low opinion of himself, especially his ability to make decisions on his own. He’s had to do pretty dark things for survival and distrusting his own moral sense is probably self protective, if he believed his own ability to see what is good or bad that would include judging his own actions much more painfully.
That's quite insightful and I do agree. Psychologically 'confusion' can sometimes be the mind's off switch to having to live with horrific things a person has had to do or simply survive. In Amos we see that rare journey: A fully broken person being slowly mended through a series of consequential relationships and opportunities. Indeed, when he takes Mai's hand this is the first time he remembers the preciousness of a child. It's heartbreaking but so full of hope.
I will always remember that outbursts of violence may help with the emotional stress of…being dead.
Bobbie understood that the plan was "If we encounter a hybrid we run," she just understood "running" as toward the danger, the way that any marine would.
Yeah, Bobbie got her revenge for her team. She would have been fine with dying to beat that hybrid
The image of Mao being brought low before Avasarala, who is wearing the racing suit of the daughter he sacrificed was chefs kiss. And also the turnaround from Amos upsetting the refugee child on Tycho and being shellshocked by it to being entrusted with taking care of children by a father was such a good arc.
Great reaction!
In this episode was my favorite moment of the whole series and it not " I am that guy." My favorite is Amos telling Prax " You're not that guy. " because he trying to save his best friends soul! And in order to do that Amos the reluctant damaged hero takes his place because he needs Prax to be the father to Mea with his soul intact.
Every once in a while I dont like when they use Amos as a sin-eater to keep someone "good" from having to do a necessary bad thing. But this, the clearest example of it, I love.
Wren struggling to put words to Amos' character arc...
Let me help you with that:
MURDER SNUGGLES
Bobbie's chaingun took out the hybrid's brainstem and cervical spine. That will kill just about anything built on the same body plan as a human being.
9:10 point of clarification, it's not minister of defense, it's minister of everything, Secretary General is the U.N. equivalent of a President.
28:19 It could have to do with where the protomolecule hit the Agatha King, on the scopes we see the area close to the engines alight with the blue, it could be that the shot hit straight to the reactor, giving the molecule a direct source of energy to feed on making it grow exponentially, while the tiny piece of molecule still on the Roci is not fed like that. just my own theory.
This episode got some really good lines, "I am that guy" and "If he spoke to a janitor, he'd be passionately declaiming about a mop."
32:49 It was Amazon and Jeff Bezos, but correct, the production company behind the show dropped it after season 3, but even before ending filming (or shortly after, I am not entirely sure) it had been picked up again, it was a very smooth transition, almost unheard of in these things.
Filming had ended before Amazon picked it up. In fact, we had information from one of the set workers that Alcon was only days away from striking the the Expanse sets to make room for other productions when Amazon picked up the show.
"I am that guy" has to be one of the most predictable lines in the show and yet so satistying.
Damn, your memory for previous plot details, even ones that seemed minor at the time, is outstanding.
The writers have not forgotten the Protomolecule on the Roci. But the Protomolecule is doing its work, and all the Protomolecule bits are in communication and doing the same thing for that work at the same time if it's in position to do so. That's why Katoa was in a "disassembly" phase at the same time the Protomolecule on Venus was in a "disassembly" phase.
It's a question whether Proto-Katoa would have been inherently violent, and there's been fan discussion about that. Proto-Katoa seemed more hesitant and questioning in its movements. It didn't even seem truly violent when it was tussling with Bobbie. There is discussion about why Proto-Katoa looked upward. Was it because it heard the "Up" command, or was it because the Katoa component was taken by the awesomeness of being out on an open horizon? Either way, we know there was still something of Katoa left, because the hybrid's brain stem splashed human blood when Bobbie shot it.
The reason Prax started sweating so much (in my head canon) is because in that moment he made the decision to kill Strickland. I also think Amos was following Prax's moral lead, but as Prax's "best friend in the whole world" (a heart-rendering moment for me), Amos also saved Prax's moral base. And, yes, Amos' concept of saving a friend is more sophisticated than one might think. This scene gives the audience an excellent emotional one-two punch.
You make a good point that there is a continuing thread of consciousness of children in this series. We saw that also with Champus on Ganymede last season...children get rescued first.
Avasarala was wearing Julie's racing suit when Mao was forced to his knees before her.
The necessity of rushing the story of book three did require leaving some plot on the floor, especially in developing the motivation of one particular character. You'll probably pinpoint that yourself that over the course of the episodes. The series was picked up by Amazon for the next three seasons, with Jeff Bezos himself making the public announcement.
The most iconic line in the overall context of the show "What? The Fuck Is That?"
The thing about that whole "I am that guy" scene... It's not just a great one-liner, but actually a fascinating psychological case study. Amos, despite being as broken of a human being as he is, recognises that for Prax to kill would damage him fundamentally, so he intervenes. That he recognises this and acts upon it is amazing. Then, of course, once he's defused that particular situation, well, he's still Amos and he sees any person who would do this sort of thing to children as something that doesn't need to exist and immediately rectifies the situation.
And I have waited so long for you to get to that scene..! It's simply sublime.
And no, you weren't tripping. There is indeed a piece of protomolecule on Rocinante.
I always find myself compelled to protest any description of Amos as "damaged". It is hard to maintain a productive and happy society if violence is cosidered to be an acceptable way to solve disagreements. This causes society to aggressively condemn anyone who immediately resorts to violence as a way to resovle problrms (except, of course, when that society goes to war). Just as, during wartime, the other side is depicted as evil demons who eat baby livers for breakfast, in peacetime violence is depicted as the product of a mentally ill person. Sane people are all required to be docile and non-violent as a pre-condition for being labeled "sane".
Amos, to me, always seemed like somebody who grew up in a violent culture where murdering and beating the shit out of people was highly valued and just part of normal, daily life. He's adjusted very well to living in a much more normal society. He only kills or pummels those who need it, and looks to Naomi or Holden for some guidance as to how to live successfully in this relativelyt peaceful new world within which he now finds himself living. He is neither damaged nor psychopathic. He a perfectly sane and inherently good man who has learned in the past, despite how people might want to believe otherwise, that killing someone is a highly effective solution to many sorts of problems. I think that scares people a bit, so they have to label him as an emotionally damaged person. Now, if we had ever seen him whacking a character because they put the toilet paper roll on the dispenser backwards, I'd agree he's got a screw loose. A lot depends upon where you find yourself living. Think back to the lobby of the Blue Falcon. It was Amos who knew something bad was developing before anybody else did. He was the most sane and most effectual person in the room at that moment.
@@Yesquire0There's some scenes in season 5 (that I'm obviously not going to specify) that do say it's not just a matter of being comfortable violence, that he does in fact have some serious issues with being a moral person and latching himself onto an external conscience is his coping mechanism with what he recognises as a problem in his own character.
For the record, I do agree with you that there's signs that he's an inherently good person, or would be if his past hadn't damaged him so much. As things stand, when things are sufficiently clear - child-abuse being the perfect example - he's able to recognise what's wrong and what's right and doesn't hesitate to act on it. But when things are murkier than that, he tends to default to cold-blooded survival mode and needs someone else around to help him negotiate life in a less psychopathic way. He's not insane, really, just emotionally straight-forward to an abnormal degree. And yes, he does have incredibly sharp instincts when it comes to violence and violent people, because that was a survival trait for him growing up.
And that's what makes him such a great character. He's very flawed, but self-aware enough to realise this and disciplined enough to develop some very unusual coping mechanisms that let him go through life with leaving not much more wreckage behind him than he needs to.
@@Thanaeon Reading your reply, I'm not at all sure you disagreed with anything I said. You just seem to want to hang on to the idea that a violent person must by emotionally disturbed because he is OK with being violent when he thinks its necessary, whereas I'm not going to describe that as an emotional problem. I don't think Amos latches on to people like Naomi because he realizes he's not quite right in the feels. I think he's smart enough to realize his past mode of behavior is not optimal in his present circumstances and thet he nees a guide to help him get through this new territory. Who on the crew of the Rocinante would you want on your team if you knew you were in for a fight? If you say "Amos", then you need to re-think your opinion about his supposed mental/emotional problems.
When Amos tells Mei that Amos is his best friend in the world, I also think it's true that Prax is Amos' best friend in the world. I don't think Amos knows many people he can genuinely call friends. I think Prax was also a catalyst for Amos' growth and empathy. I couldn't imagine Amos having that level of empathy and awareness for anyone else.
@@Yesquire0Please re-watch season 5. You'll find stuff there relating to Amos that definitely goes beyond "he's comfortable with using violence for morally justifiable ends." That's not the problem. There's one line in particular that he says to himself that's him realising that he needs his external conscience around - not quite in those very words, but that's the very clear sentiment expressed, and that's what his damage is.
Compare with Holden - halfway into season 2, he's grown comfortable with using violence to achieve his goals, but he tries much harder to talk his way out of it first, and he generally has a better handle on when it's necessary or even an appropriate response. Left to his own devices, Amos may give one calm warning that the other person may not even recognise the severity of before he goes off.
(There's another symptom as well - it's not just his willingness to use violence, but also his escalation pattern. The normal human psychology will usually go through a pattern of escalation that goes roughly from words to harsh words to threats to pushing the other person around to escalating levels of violence. Amos instead just skips over as many intermediary steps as he feels are necessary and goes for what he seems like the probable end result of the escalation scenario. Which isn't insane, exactly, and there's in truth a cold rationality to his way of thinking, but it's also not a normal way of thought for humanity, for whom that kind of domination ladder is the natural way our instincts work with one another.)
Yes, faced with the possibility of violence, I'd like Amos at my back. But I would not trust him to judge when violence was necessary in complex circumstances. In simple circumstances, sure. But there's plenty of instances in the show where the other members of the crew have to hold him back. (And even more instances where he's ready to resort to violence, then looks at his fellow crew members, takes his cues from them and stands down.)
Also note: preparing for the role, the actor went to a psychologist to get hints on how to act the character's trauma. Which is pretty explicit that it's a mental health issue. This doesn't make Amos a bad person, to be clear - in fact, his willingness to confront his problems and work around them is admirable and a big part of why I love the character so much.
Another great reaction. Been waiting to see this one...and your reaction to "I am that guy."
To update you on the timeline of cancelation BEFORE production began on S3, the producers felt there was a strong possibility they would not be renewed by SyFy. Therefore, they constructed the season to end with the close of book 3, since it resolved several arcs, while leaving a good starting place for future seasons IF they got renewed. It was while the season was airing (well after production and post-production) that the cancelation was announced. It only took a couple of weeks for Amazon (Jeff Bezos, NOT Elon Musk) to pick it up.
Many people comment on the changes they perceive when Amazon picked it up, but it’s important to note that neither SySy nor Amazon owned the show. They merely bought the right to air/stream the show (and put their branding on it) for a specific period of time. The show (and rights to the books) are owned by Alcon Entertainment., which is responsible for the show’s production. One reason for the consistent good quality of the show is the fact that almost 90% of the people (cast and crew) who started with the show, stayed with it for all 6 seasons.
We, being me especially lol, also maintain hope that once the rights to revert back to Alcon, that they'll successfully shop it around and be able to get the final 3 seasons made.
I audiobooked them for the first time recently and OMG they may be the best arc, and that's saying alot cuz I love season 5.
@@Jackomack Alcon have been trying to get Amazon to release the rights back to them early because they have some offers from other streaming services. Alcon has been tight lipped about exactly what that something is, but they're still actively trying to get something else Expanse made. Could be a the final three books adapted to three or more seasons of a show, could be movies, could be a spin off of some sort. No one knows at this point, but they wouldn't be trying to get the rights back early if they didn't have solid offers on the table.
"BEFORE production began on S3, the producers felt there was a strong possibility they would not be renewed by SyFy" - Not true. Or can you provide a credible source such as an interview where they actually confirm that?
@@amarokorama Multiple interviews with Ty, Daniel and Naren at various FanCom panels, plus comments on multiple TY AND THAT DUY podcasts. Also, keep in mind that filming is completed more than 6 months before airing ergo the plan for the episode arca are set well in advance.
@@TArnoldFerguson I know that filming is completed months before airing. That's not the point. The point is your claim that they structured season 3 the way they did because "they felt there was a strong possibility they would not be renewed by SyFy". I say that's untrue. You haven't provided a source. Saying "multiple interviews and Ty & That Guy podcasts" is no conrecte source. I've read and watched all of those, too. And I can give concrete sources:
EW: First off, you really sped through book 3, Abaddon’s Gate, doing the whole thing in seven episodes - much faster than the first two books. Why the accelerated pace for what is, in my opinion, one of the best books in the series?
Naren Shankar: Book 3 was a challenging thing to adapt. What was tricky about Abaddon’s Gate was that it starts with an entirely new cast of characters. It kind of builds up to getting them through the Ring. It’s more philosophical than intellectual. The space where they go into, it’s sort of the most… I don’t want to use this term disparagingly at all, but sort of science-fiction-y thing we have done in the run of the show. Which tends to be sort of more like science-realistic, or at least tries to achieve that. So for a lot of reasons, we felt like we had 13 episode seasons, we were gonna finish off Caliban’s War mid-season. We took the approach that we compressed it and we launched Anna, who was the character, really kind of the focus character in Abaddon’s Gate, early in the season, which we did because she is not actually in the second book at all.
EW: Yeah, you gave her a prequel, basically.
NS: That’s right, we gave her a history, we gave her a connection to Earth and the government, and we changed her backstory, but that would enable us to get through the end of that because it was such a great season-ender. It was such a momentous thing and such a huge game-changer for the world of The Expanse. *We always felt like that would be a great place to end the season.* So I think it was all those factors together that led to the decision to compress that narrative into seven episodes. I think it surprised people that we were able to get all the way through Abaddon at the end of the season because it didn’t fit our pattern so far. The way we approach it in the [writer's] room is we try to tell the story that we want to tell over the course of the season, *irrespective of where it lands at the end of the book, the middle of the book, two-thirds of the way through the book, or a whole book*. We’ve often pulled materials forward from later novels and to earlier novels, building novellas into it. It changes kind of season to season. We certainly have a long-term plan of what the show is over the next several seasons, but I don’t want to give too much away to people.
- Entertainment Weekly interview with Naren Shankar "The Expanse showrunner explains season 3 finale and previews season 4"
Q: Do you remember any moments in the writers room that stirred up a considerable amount of debate in adapting the story for television and diverging from the source material?
Naren Shankar: There were several, I would say, and they weren't gigantic, they were all situational.(...) I remember when we were getting to Abaddon's Gate, I was talking about doing the adaptation and *Daniel goes, "Well, we could just skip that book entirely,"* and I was like "...What?!" [laughs] He went, "It's very intellectualized and academic." [laughs]
- cbr(dot)com/the-expanse-naren-shankar-series-finale-interview
Ergo: they didn't compress book 3 into the second half of season 3 out of any nebulous fear of cancellation. They did so because it they felt it made the most sense for the story. The only reason why the show's seasons didn't align with the books in the first place is that Shankar couldn't adapt book 1 (and do it justice) in the 10 episodes they were given for season 1. Season 3 / book 3 allowed them to get into alignment.
Amos leveraging his trauma and loss of innocence to be a shield for those who are still innocent was a beautiful moment. Wes Chatham continues as deeply impressive as Amos, able to deliver what could he standard tough-guy lines with a chilling matter of fact tone.
I think Errinwright was genuine in his desire to fight for earth. The divisive tribalism instinct is the problem, as soon as there are two camps, you get conflict.
We're seeing the protomolecule learn. It hijacked Julie's personhood to use as a pilot. As Mao learned about it, it learned about us. It deconstructed the Arborghast, and suddenly it's absorbing and spreading across ships instead of just organic substances, and then it makes it's own ship. I wonder what it's learned from being half human? You're right about it being amoral - it's like a builder has turned up to work, and there's a bunch of heaps of bricks that for some reason don't like being pulled apart and reformed into a wall. Wierd bricks, huh? Oh well.
RIP Cotyar, a real one. It's nice to see Nick Tarabay being able to play a good guy for once!
Secretary-General Sorrento-Gillis us so empty the SG's initials are SG. S-G S-G. Avasarala called him a bobble-head.
Thanks for sharing your reaction and your takes!
Please do not watch the credits on the next episode, but you're fine after that.
His first name is Estaban! But you make a very hilarious point about his initials!! I never noticed that before and I cannot count how many times I have seen this show now...
@DrEsky914 yeah, but you get my point 🙂
"Splitting the part" is also called "force multiplication".
All your wishes for Naomi: be careful what you wish for... these writers know how to deliver :)
Re the Agatha King, I think Alex postulated that it spread faster because learned about human ships from dissembling the Arboghast over Venus. As to why the same is not happening with the Rocinante - good question!
You are thinking about the protomolecule under the Roci's deck and wondering what it is foreshadowing. That shows that you understand thematic tropes and "Chekov's Gun."
This episode! It's so so good, one of my favorite on television...The characters do have great arcs. That's the strength of this show, they stay with you long after you've finished it.
You commented on what a beautiful view the exterior shot of Io after Bobbie and the Hybrid fell. Did you notice the giant active volcano plume in the backgound? Io is known for it's giant volcanoes with plumes that can be seen from space.
Anna realized that the sec general hasn't changed and Errinwright was absolutely right about him. He thanked Anna for delivering the message that he thinks will exonerate him. Again no concern for the destruction, just how it affects his ratings and legacy.
What the SG fails to realize is that the buck stops with him and that he's ultimately responsible for everything that went down under his watch.
Sadavir is Errinwright's first name :)
The Secretary-General is called Esteban Sorrento-Gillis.
(Defense Minister was the title of the Martian guy Errinwright killed, Korshunov).
This is probably my favourite "ending" in show, not just ending book 2 and season 2.5, but basically also the first "phase" of the show. The remaining 3 phases each have a bit of a different feel to them, while still being The Expanse of course (though many people seem to like book / season 4 aka phase 3 least).
I'm just getting all the names wrong 😆
@@WrensRamblingsmy GF and I still joke about your early pronunciations of the Rocinante 😅
We say Russian Hombre
So, now you've seen the single most famous line from this show. "I Am That Guy"
I've waited until this episode before mentioning this trivia
There is a TH-cam channel called Ty&That Guy. The channel is hosted by Wes Chatam (Amos...aka That Guy) and Ty Frank. Frank is one of the 2 guys who wrote The Expanse, under the name James S.A. Corey.
On the channel Chatam and Frank breakdiown Expanse episodes and they also react/breakdown other movies. Check it out if that interest you.
The hybrids own sense of purpose is really just survival. Nothing more. Remember, it is a man made creation, not the Protomolecule's. If the Protomolecule gains full control, it would simply disassemble and repurpose for its own mission. And Errinwright's entire drive was to get Mars back under Earth's boot before Mars could do the same to them.
Its purpose is The Work.
Was waiting for this one, it's my other favorite episode! Glad to see you enjoy some of my favorite moments, too.
About Adm Nguyen’s description of Mars, Nguyen is the epitome of the angry military careerist traumatized by loss and probably survivors guilt who is dealing with it by hating anyone related to Mars and wanting revenge. That on top of the very real tendency for militaries (and nations overall) to dehumanize their enemy and ascribe all negative traits possible to justify wanting to kill them. It’s not wrong that there is a very regimented military focus to a lot of Mars society but imperialistic (at least any more so than the original Imperialists: Earth governments), bloodthirsty, etc descriptions are coming from very biased sources. All our sources so far to know what Mars is like are either military/opposing government or belters who hate them as much as Earth for being their oppressors and just as much of a colonial power.
The UNN hates them as a breakaway colony and also rival for resources of the belt, Belters hate them for being colonial oppressors leeching the immense wealth of the belt from those who’ve spent generations mining it for the planetary governments. Every Martian we’ve met has been part of the military, and either a front line commanding officer or an elite unit (Bobby’s Recon Marines are their best, tip of the spear special operations units). Alex is more laid back, but even he is a former military pilot with loyalty showing through even well after leaving the service and Mars behind.
In its history as a breakaway colony of the single superpower (Hyperpower?) of the time, Earth government, Mars has a lot in common with the founding of the US and has good reason to be very defensive about its former ruler that wants it back. As a relatively young sovereign nation it also wants to flex its own power and independence exerting its own dominance over the Belt and pushing back against the UN. They also are living in a much more harsh environment where a higher amount of cohesiveness and nationalism is necessary to even survive, much less work toward a goal they’ve had since the first colonists on Mars. They are a culture that grew out of engineering and science teams who believed enough in the value of colonizing and eventually terraforming the planet to leave their far safer more welcoming planet behind so of course they would pass that unifying goal on to newcomers. From an outside perspective, it doesn’t take much negative bias to start to see them as insect like impersonal drones working for their “bad” government wanting only power and to replace the UN as a new Hegemon. That, rather than consider the Martians actually believing in the dream of a green mars like Avasarala’s murdered friend shared with his husband, the Mars naval officer who died as the main characters escaped with the now Roci, and we even saw Bobby visualizing when we were first introduced to her.
To be clear though, the shows creators have even emphasized the UN and Mars do _not_ map to the US vs USSR or any other pair of historic rivals, they are each a mix of both the US and USSR and many others. That’s a big part of what I love so much about the show, the people (both individually and as societies) a have complex motivations and histories, do good and bad things for altruistic and selfish reasons all intermingled and flawed and very human. Even thematically, while it is very much in the “grittier” “darker” side of sci-fi for its corrupt politics and oppression/prejudice etc in full force, in many ways it’s also a very optimistic story particularly around the core crew’s relationships and struggles to do what they feel is right.
Great comments. My take for why Erinwright’s arrest wasn’t traditionally satisfying is that he was dead on in his critique of the Secretary-General’s weakness. Erinwright was flawed, too willing to conflate his personal ambition with his desire to protect the Earth and of course untethered from restraint in his actions. But there was I think a burning desire to protect Earth there in him. And the Secretary-General did not have a core belief like that. Taking Erinwright down was necessary and justified but the fact it was the weak Secretary-General doing it left me thinking about Erinwright’s merits at that moment.
Yes. Also, Anna's real quest in the plot was to bring Sorrento-Gillis to an understanding of the moral weight of his actions. The arrest of Errinwright wasn't a clear victory moment for Anna because Sorrento-Gillis hadn't learned his lesson. She's not satisfied, and we're not satisfied.
@@kirkdarling4120 very good point. Hadn’t thought of it before but agree completely
delivered differently
Consider putting time-stamps on your comments, or collecting them into a paragraph. This one in particular, as it stands, makes zero sense.
they are going to lay waste to mars
i'm gonna go back and see your earlier reactions
You nailed it with satisfying arcs and The Expanse is excellent in that regard. Unfortunately, a lot of modern writing really fumbles character arcs and motivations. They usually have interesting premises or outlines, but fail to really execute them, at least from what I've seen. Not to say that quality isn't out there, but a lot of the more mainstream projects, really suffer.
that's what human do
so i just found you, welcome
Some other great Expanse reactors include one who's just finished season 1 called Warp Reactor, some others who recently finished the show are The Review Crew and Ramblers Inc
It is the opening for the next episode that you should not watch. This one is okay.👍