Battle Breakdown : The Hopeless Situation of AR-558
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ต.ค. 2024
- What's up guys, we'll be doing a battle break down of the Siege of AR-558 . What do you guys think? How did it go? Let's break it down..
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“ let me tell you something about humans, nephew. Their a wonderful friendly people aslong as their holosuits are working and their belly’s are full. Take away their creature comforts, deprive them of food , sleep, sonic showers, put their lives in jeopardy for an extended period of time, and those nice friendly humans will become as mean and vile as the most blood thirsty Klingon “. Just another solid quote from quark.
makes me feel sorry for the Jem'hadar.
Quark really knows what He is talking about almost ALL the time..gotta give that to him.
Probably the most insightful thing he's ever said
One of the reasons why I liked DS9 so much. They had more non-Starfleet officer's points view on things than any other show. Even liked how Jake didn't become a Starfleet officer like his father.
*Hew-mons!
The seige of AR-558. AKA: Saving Private Nog.
Brutal episode. Really drives home how serious the war was.
As an extra note. If you meet a current or former member of our armed forces: buy them coffee or something. Believe me, they'll appreciate it.
Saving crewman Nog.
Crewman is the Navy version of a private.
For me it was one of the strongest episodes that Star Trek all together had to offer. It showed that starfleet, even though they're considered a superpower, is still vounerable. It showed how gruesome the war with the Dominion really was. Sisko was forced to get away from the desk and get his hands dirty. The doctor had to see how his patients get injured. And the soldiers left on AR-558 showed PTSD in various ways. It showed really how brutal this war was.
The Nog arc was one of my favorite of the series...it was so intense.
When he gave his reasons for joining Starfleet, despite everything going against him, you might actually cry.
IIRC from production notes, this episode was loosely based on the Vietnam War. They brought in vets as technical advisors. There was a lot of controversy when this episode was released; anti-war advocates looked at it as glorifying war, hardcore trekkies felt this way crossed the line against Gene's ST ideology, and some vets didn't like how close they related to the episode despite how writers wanted to honor them through it.
But personally, this episode really epitomized the cost of war by putting actual faces on those who fight and lose. Throughout the Dominion War arc, you hear losses based on ships. You hear about ships being lose sometimes followed up by a number. Bashir's thinktank came up with the solution of surrender after looking at the numbers based on casualties. The whole war desensitized everyone from the idea of lose of life forgetting they are/were people with a life, a story, friends, family. You saw that in Seige of AR-558. That's why I loved this episode and how it fits in with the Dominion War saga.
As far as trekkies are concerned, they never really think much about what it takes "to protect what you have". But then Star Trek has a huge number of glaring omissions in what life would actually be like in their universe.
DocWolph
True, Gene's ideology is a perfect fantasy. But it's still a fantasy. Adding in our dark violent nature and other imperfections makes it more relatable, understandable, believable while showing what we need to do to achieve Gene's dream and how to keep it.
In my opinion, this episode is the most powerful episode of Trek ever produced. One of the reasons it felt so real was because each member of the main cast was injured in some way during the battle. Nobody was safe, and you could feel that in the episode.
This is the Federation needs a dedicated army
I always liked DS9 for showing the gritty side of things.
rotate out every 30 days? wasn't it 90?
+Jean-Luc Martel I misspoke if I said 30.
This episode is frequently sited as a reason why Starfleet needs Marines.
starfleet doesn't need marines, starfleet needs power armor.
TentaclePentacle,
I wanted to avoid saying that specifically or else someone would just say "Space Marines". But it is almost a default that Starfleet Marines would wear sealed or sealable space suits which would have strength and durability augmentations.
I keep picturing one of the opening scenes of "Star Trek VI" which the spacesuited assassins killing off the Kilngons. SFMC armor would look a lot like that, although not white. 1) Too much like Imperial Stormtroopers, 2) White is traditionally a peacetime color for non-civilian vehicles and equipment 3) SFMC suits should be grey or some ever shifting color, active camouflage.
SF Combat suits would be just this side of OP, with personal shields, strength and endurance augmentations, built in tricorder systems and sensors, You could literally look at the US Army "Land Warrior"program and just "All that but 100 times better" and that would make perfect sense. And that they can just replicate suits as needed, and the SFMC could literally equip every Marine with "power Armor" with out thinking hard about it. Starfleet vessels are almost flying factories as they are now.
Even if you only had 10 Marines they could rout platoons of Jem'Hadar like playing DOOM on easy.
+DocWolph
The thing is if starfleet can invent power armor, why can't the dominion who have been more warlike than starfleet.
Star Trek just doesn't know how to write ground combat. Futuristic combat should involve suits. The Expanse does ground combat pretty well. The mars marines in The Expanse all had power suits, a squad of 5 carries the firepower of an entire army.
As much as I dislike the Star Trek writers cherry picking what is in the future and not and the actual consequences for it being there or not, I think looking at the Dominion they would only have tougher Jem'Hadar but they would not have powered armor. the Jem'Hadar were created along the lines of economy. You would have to equip Jem'Hadar more than a rifle and their drug tube and that is just not a working strategy for the Dominion. The Dominion Founders do not view life as highly as Starfleet or most other races would. The Jem'Hadar are basically "robots made of meat", that are ready in a few months, just long enough to get them trained for action, and are totally expendable in pursue of conquest and control. Frankly, other than wearing slightly heavier body armor and/or having insane healing abilities, the Dominion would not really bother with powered armor.
Races that put any kind of premium on the lives of their soldiers, Starfleet, the Klingons, Romulans, Breen (Big no Duh with them), and others, would easily make use of powered armor. The quality and equipment of the armor would vary widely with the SFMC and Romulans having the most overtly advanced armors. Klingons might be the toughest due to their heavy use of melee combat. Cardassians would be on the short end of a very long stick. It would be interesting where the Kzinti would fall in to that.
More than anything, it is not whether they are more warlike but how they view their armies. If you value your troops, you armor them up. This if the soldiers are in limited numbers, value victory regardless the cost in materials and equipment or that cost is negligible, or you want your troops to go to hell and survive.
Also, a squad of modern soldiers carries wildly more firepower than they did in WW2, Korea, or Vietnam.
The argument might be made that "if Starfleet has better weapons and troops, then everyone else will". So, what happens when someone shows up and they already have superior weapons and equipment?
+DocWolph
power armor isn't just for defense, it's also firepower and enhanced abilities. If the jme'hadar didn't have power armor, while charging a race that did, they would be like ants charging a tank. When it comes to the dominion what's more likely is that their power armor would be like the stim marines in star craft, where they are injected with a stim drug that makes them super strong and durable for a short period of time, and then they die.
Thank You for these videos...... No one I interact with knows ds9.... And it's my favorite show and I can never discuss stuff about it..... These are just GREAT....can't stress that enough...keep em coming
they should of replicated several mg-42s, claymore mines, hell any AP mine really and turned the Jem Hadar into meat paste
Yea, I get into this in part 2 alot but this really emphasizes how much Starfleet weapons suck on the ground..
Lore Reloaded
I'm not entirely sure what to think about Federation ground forces given the technology that is available. Considering the kind of potential firepower available in a mobile platform, each soldier should be the equivalent to the combined strength of obe if today's USMC fireteams. However, what they seem to severely lack is proper training and how to best use said technology.
The area around the comms hub was full of obstacles that not only can they use as cover but also the enemy. Clearing some of the obstacles creates killzones where you can pick off enemies without worry. Or forces advancing forces to avoid so you know where to concentrate your attention and firepower. Also, no elevated points for sniping and spotting. Plus I only saw one person who was really prepared when the battle turned into a big brawl...
+Lore Reloaded
Starfleet weapons didn't suck the writing sucked. No one knows how to write a futuristic war, they relied on the tactics of trench warfare. If you want to see futuristic ground combat done right, we have to go to starship troopers with their power armor, or shows like the Expanse. Everyone soldier is basically like a giant tank encased in power armor, with shoulder mounted missiles, computer guided targeting, wrist mounted energy weapons.
Claymore Mines, And multi-barreled Grenade launchers.
I'm sure Martok would've given some Klingon troops to this cause.
Klingon Ground forces are even more useless. They just love there Bat'leths to much.
That episode works on an emotional level and works well as a war story. But technology wise this episode was horrid, all ground combat is the star trek universe is kind of dumb. Why isn't there any combat suits? Personal shields? Have anyone ever heard of power armor? Combat vehicles? Why wasn't the phaser set to a wide dispersal pattern that kills everyone in 1 shot? How does hiding behind a rock stop phaser fire when phasers can melt rocks? Also why are the soldiers charging each other with nothing but rifles? Where are the artiilary?
You need to stop taking it so seriously and take it for what it is. By this point in the show there had been a war going on for over a year we had seen various space battles but in true star trek fashion it was all a bit clean which isn't a true reflection of war. The siege of AR-558 was there to show just how dark and horrible war can be and what can happen to people if there left in stressful positions for to long, some of the actors they used for this show were genuine ex military and helped give the episode it's edgy atmosphere and sense of danger. If they introduced half the things you suggested it take away from the story and the message it was trying to convey.
If you really can't get your head around that and want a lore explanation then consider where they are, under manned and nearly out of resources and fighting for survival. The area of operations is narrow most of the base looks like it was dug out so using bulky vehicles isn't an option (the same reason goes for artillery which would just destroy and kill everything around it). Power armor? Never seen Starfleet use that on the show before besides it would require energy to operate which was a finite resource at AR-558. Don't forget everyone is fighting over the communications relay, weapons set on full won't last as long and could cause damage to the very thing there all fighting over. If wide dispersal pattern would have been effective against Jem Hader soldiers then they would have used it, clearly it's not so they aim concentrated beams fire to take our the ground troops.
+Freddie1980
At the very least personal shields should be a thing. Portable shield generators are used all the time in TNG. There was an episode where Picard's girlfriend went down to a planet with portable shield generators to stop a firestorm. Data destroyed an entire aqueduct with nothing but a hand phaser. In TNG worf use hand phasers to melt through walls and rocks to create tunnels all the time. Trench warfare should not be a thing with the available technology. A smart writer would be able to show the horrors of war with a new way of ground combat. But that would take too much imagination.
TentaclePentacle
Red shirts.
in expanded they got better ground tech and institusions but they did have macos in enterprise all so with theyre tech breaking so easy id give ak and mosbergs as back up from replicators
Not to mention camouflage, actual dedicated Marines (Starfleet does the flying, we do the dying) Snipers armed with weapons that don't give away their position, weapons that have a horribly slow rate of fire.
They really needed a belt-fed machine gun in this one
Your channel got me playing STO again. Wow...things have changed.
+Major Garlic Williams Hah..yes.. I noticed that to.. You enjoying it? We should team up some time
the battle itself kinda reminds me of the legendary "pavlov's house" a large 4 story building on a potentially highly valuable position during the battle of stalingrad which changed hands daily or hourly until a certain sergeant Yakov Pavlov took it with a platoon of men and finally held it for 60 days.. while surrounded by germans and their allies and under constant attacks while also sheltering civilians that managed to reach them before they were encircled.
I’m annoyed I didn’t watch this episode for so long. I got put off by the opening sequence with Rom and Fontaine and thought it was going to be one of those kind of episodes and just skipped it. Put turned out to be one of the best sequences of the dominion war and I’m happy you included it.
yeh any episode with Fontaine was usually pretty crap.Tthey have a war going on and they are playing with a video game character?
to show a little humanity? it's not like anyone in war ever needs any R+R....
yep you should be annoyed at yourself
Chntoka and AR-558 was sort of like a Federation version of the Battle of Guadalcanal.
The Federation's Rorke's Drift
4:15 And it's something to be proud of. We can be friendly and we can fight.
my favorite episode.
Nog just quoted the old Andorian saying: "Don't push the pink skins to the thin ice."
There was another episode where Jake got caught in the fighting and helped to defend a MASH like medical facility.
Great video, can’t wait for part two
When the Dominion realized that their comm equipment was in danger of being captured, why not just cut it out of the network? Surely they had the ability to disconnect or deactivate it remotely, if not outright destroy it. And failing those options, they could even just change their codes.
because we needed a gritty trench warfare story.
Nova class starship would really help them it can go into the atmosphere and attack enemy ground positions
Correction for you. We do get to see the Federation fighting on the ground against the Gorn in the TOS episode "Arena" They use a antimater mortar to suppress the Gorn attacking the outpost.
+Hoehner Tim "One of the few"...meaning rare...and that we had a "few" other examples :)
The problem is, when was the last time Starfleet fought an actual ground war. The Dominion war could almost be seen as a 1st World war in space, as the admirals and generals who had no idea what fighting a war on such a scale and such brutality before would do.
+jammers195
Well if the federation sucks at ground war, the dominion or even the klingons are just as bad. They use the same tactics on the ground. It's like no one ever thought of to use personal shields or something.
TentaclePentacle (before you read this is all my opinion and your entitled to your own, this is what I thought is the logic of the Episode was and is and my reasoning)
well during small conflicts they mostly consists of spacial fights between ships, however this was a larger one that defiantly required a lot more men then startled clearly had, the war itself was most likely one of the few wars starfleet fought on the ground due to starships benign able to bombard the planets surface however key locations like these were important to both sides that made them not bombard it, it was starfleetd way of getting into the dominions communications and the Jem, hadar needed it since it was a key link between multiple outpost to transfer the messages.
Star fleet weapons were clearly meant for starship to starship battles with battles in long corridors and small rooms, the jem’hadar weapons were much better made for all around combats with there quick burst fire that made it easier to hit multiple targets at once at range. Which made sense since the jem’hadar were bred for war.
As well as the forces spread thin thing was most likely due to how huge the front was in the war where multiple key outpost that seemingly is more important than AR-558 was to employ star ships there and most likely starfleet already deploy multiple ships onto multiple borders.
The style of warfare used here is logical for both sides, the Jem’hadar are bred to fight and die while starfleet soldiers are gonna try and preserve each other’s life, hence the reason why the jem’hadar rushes the base like that. As well it explains the way the soldiers were fighting, they were using all that they had available to them and most likely the jem’hadar died a distance away from the base so other soldiers(probably cloaked) most likely grabbed there weapons to not be used by the enemy. However I do understand why people point this out as a flaw since it’ll be a likely situation due to the fact the one soldier had a jem’hadar knife but I also have an explanation, they did use them but they ran out of energy packs for them, it is to my understanding the jem’hadar uses a different type of energy for there weapons so they use a different type of energy packs for them, so as soon as the confiscated jem’hadar weapons were used up they most likely either took them apart for spare parts for the standard phaser rifle or they most likely overcharged something so they used them like a much heavier grenade.
Good episode although too small and formations and numbers were not used. The invasion into Dominion space should had been D-Day numbers 200,000 troops.
Yea, I decided to do part 2 today.. what's crazy is that they use military terms that .. don't make any sense at some points as well.. They should have had someone with a bit of combat experience as a consultant on this one.
simply excellent
great video's can't wait for part two of this one
great ep great vid
I know I'm going to sound like everyone else, but why didn't Starfleet train and equip assault troops before the outbreak of the Dominion War? They knew a conflict with the Dominion was coming yet all they did was improve the fleet. Was Starfleet's grand plan to wage war in space and let the Klingons handle the planetary invasions? When I watch this episode I get the feeling that the defenders of AR-558 are more of an improvised garrison than an effective force.
It's all based on Beta Canon but I always assumed the Starfleet Marines were the decendents of the MACOs. I figured the guys on AR-558 we're Starfleet Marines but as they used the navy rank structure I guess they were just Starfleet Security. Maybe Reese restarted the MACOs by the time of STO.
lol ok one issue with this... what happened to the wide beam setting on the phasers?? apparently you could stun and or kill multiple enemies with one shot. other then that. if that tech trope wasnt mentioned previously this is a good episode.
That's something i get into in part 2.. There's not a ton of excuses for it though honestly..
yeh other then that it was great.. especially quarks social commentary lol
It was discussed about 4 years ago somewhere on reddit.
They said:
Wide beam = lower power to each target so it's effective in VOY and TOS against weak unarmoured puny humans, but anything a bit tougher would be like pointing a flash light at them. TOS and VOY use wide stun setting, Jem Hadar are immune to stun. In TNG search for a youtube clip of 'more security' and a human super soldier gets stunned numerous times and doesn't get incapacitated.
Wide beam = collateral damage.
But it's mostly plot armour.
Oooooh make a hypothetical video if M.A.C.O.s would have been practical in the dominion war
Another great analysis Lore!
It must take you a good few days to get all the points written down.
Will you ever do battle from Doctor Who?
You can't do lore on dr who, when the show can explain away any inconsistencies as time is wibbly wobbly.
With ST:D and ST:E Star Trek is also a bit wibbly wobbly these days :P
ENT is very lore consistent, and STD is not startrek
AR-558 was like a hill in Vietnam or Korea.
+rein1705 I have been told the writers did it as a dedication to those in vietnam
MACO`s would have been so suited for this battle.
Indeed, I actually somewhat talk about Starfleet marines in the video today to.
Why UFP losing so low in pratice that my question. Dominion attack wipe the entire UFP forces before Sisko even arrive.
the stalingrad of star trek.
That's what it should of been...
Yup.
All they needed was an industrial generator and some hologenerators.
why is Quark on an away mission, he is not Starfleet, he runs a bar, it makes no sense for him to be on this mission in the first place.
I forget why they had him
I love the Siege of AR-558 it was one of my Favorite DS9 Episodes, Lore Check this out, Star Trek: Quentin Tarantino has pitched idea for new film
Quentin Tarantino might embark on a mission to direct a Star Trek film for Paramount. www.denofgeek.com/uk/movies/star-trek/53819/star-trek-quentin-tarantino-has-pitched-idea-for-new-film
I thought they were rotated every 90 says
+Nicholas Alexander misspoke
I was listening and heard 30 and had the same thought. Always sure he said 90 when talking to Sisko.
The Jem Hader did me proud.
Don't push the pink skins.
One of many issues I have with start trek. NO DAMN Starfleet marine corp. This would be a good victory against the doms. Damn you Gene Roddenberry and your peace loving ideas with no military and this sob was in the air force during ww2
the romans knew what they were talking about when they said "if you want peace prepare for war". that's what bugs me about the federation. they literally would never survive in real life because some threat like say the borg, or dominion would invade and catch them completly unprepared.
Jean-Luc Martel this is why I like star wars better at least they see the need to have a military while trying to make peace. We need to revamp everything in star trek right now
I'm going to step up to the plate on that one. Technically, when it comes to ground combat, you're one hundred percent right. The Federation in our world would never be able to survive. But they have one major thing going for them... interstellar starships.
Take the Galaxy Class explorer ship (i.e. Enterprise D.) It has two thousand civilians on it, but it's saucer can separate into a dedicated warship if need be, so it's not like people weren't aware of the need for a war even during TNG. There were multiple times that the ship itself was able to take out an entire planet in a few seconds (they fired phasers to cause some kind of massive geological cascade, I can't remember the episode off the top of my head.) So, they have the firepower. Shields are also proven to be occasionally useful.
The big thing, though, is the fact that Starfleet dedicates so many of its resources to science. As of TNG, it's at the point where the Federation is able to beat multiple Klingon ships through the fact that they are so far ahead of the Klingons scientifically. In TOS, they were about on equal footing. They just put all their resources into the maintenance of a few dozen ships until Wolf 359, and they were capable of at least semi-fending off more militaristic powers like Cardassia, Klingons, and even the Romulans (I'll get to that soon).
The way Federation ships work was shown in Undiscovered Country. All of the scientific equipment they had got militarized to detect cloaked ships, so they put it to work to take out the most advanced ship the Klingons could muster, once they actually figured out what to do. Their targeting systems are light years ahead of even Jem Had'r ships (you see Jem Had'r routinely miss their marks, but very rarely do you see Federation ships miss. The main problem is sometimes they don't have enough power behind those targeting systems, or enough structural integrity to withstand a sustained attack.
When the Nemesis came out, it displayed what had happened in the Federation. Besides being scared of their own shadow at this point, ships like the Sovereign Class had been built to be able to withstand even a Romulan Cloaked Heavy Battleship in sustained combat. The fact that it was able to sustain something like that until the other Romulan warbirds came in to help indicates they are far more advanced in military technology than even the Romulans at this point.
The Federation doesn't dedicate much to ground forces because they concentrate all their military muscle into their ships instead.
This vid is nothing but a useless rehash of the plot of Ep8, S7.