U.S. Catholic Bishops Respond To Gender Ideology | The Catholic Talk Show
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 มิ.ย. 2024
- In this episode of The Catholic Talk Show, the guys are joined by Andrew Buonopane from the USCCB to discuss the Church's teaching about love, marriage, sexuality, family, and the human person.
Episode 283:
In this episode, we will discuss:
• Why Should Sex Matter To Religion?
• Is Transgenderism and Homosexuality Sinful?
• How Are The Bishops Responding To New Ideology?
• and much more
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I'm 38 and detransitioning. I am Episcopal - returned to God last year. It was healing thru Christ and Father Mike explaining Theology of the Body that helped me. I am so much less angry and hurt than before. Next step is OCIA classes!
So so happy for you❤
We’ll be praying for you!
Will pray for you.🙏
God bless you. I’ll be praying for you. If you want put your name too so I can more accurately pray for you.
Sending prayers your way
Trying to reach a younger cousin nephew by marriage who was influenced by his environment growing up. Thru prayers we are hoping 🙏 he still can be saved.
Greetings to the CTS from your Episcopalian friend. But not for long, because I start RCIA in July at Sty. Leos in Tacoima. Tell Father Pagano and Jen,
Hate the sin , love the sinner
Fr Mac baptized my son a few weeks ago. Nice to see him on the show!
As a chronic listener of Matt Walsh, I needed this. This discussion, and Jason Evert's findings shared on Pints w Aquinas are not proclaimed enough.
Being a man or a woman is so much more than what you think, and we must not forget what these people must be seeking in these communities. They're just broken in different ways that us. Let us compassionately present the antidote we all strive to take.
Thanks, Emily!
Matt doesn't seem to have a compassionate approach to the topic because his focus really is on people imposing transition on children and depraved behavior from adults. However, I don't think he hates some poor, hurt, and confused soul who just wants to feel normal and loved.
So just what is the antidote to transgenderism? or the whole lgbtq+ brigade?
@@kevinrtresget involved politically, show up to the school board meetings, run for office. Never use a wrong pronoun or a chosen name. Never let them see you get flustered. Pray, fasting, sacraments. Speak up when the discussion happens around this. If you are in a profession (ie medicine, law, entertainment), use that platform to educate others. Never back down
Instead of new ideology, we should be maintaining the old, biblical ideology.
So going by the laws in leviticus would be a good way to run society? Its biblical ideologies, but for some reason I always get deleted why I start quoting from it😂
@@The_Atheist_Carpenter5625 Leviticus is not the only place where homosexuality is deemed a sin in Scripture. Further, it is against the very nature of the created order and is anti-human, as they cannot “be fruitful and multiply.” God’s ideology on this issue has not changed. It is wicked, just as lying is wicked. Neither should be condoned. Both require repentance and a change of heart in order to be in right relationship with God. No sin should be viewed with a new ideology.
@@TheStAugustineScriptorium did gods ideology change with regard to slavery? Maybe read what Augustine had to say about it too while your at it.
Your hypocrisy is a moot point regardless, I don't live in a theocracy and I will not have my rights restricted by the likes of you.
The tree of liberty...
Although it did have some laws for the population, Leviticus was for the Levites. God was starting with a weak people who preferred being enslaved, and teaching them to govern themselves in the wild-- gotta learn to crawl before you learn to walk, walk before you can run. The laws were harsh, but they were still a step up from the laws of the savage tribes surrounding them.
Anyway, I think it was Adams who said the US Constitution was for a moral and religious people, or something along those lines.
@@Horse-Feathers Adams is not the constitution, and the constitution says: "shall make no law with respect to religion nor restrict the free exercise thereof"
You get to follow catholic dogma if you want, and I get to ignore it if I want. It's the simplest thing to understand if one isn't being deliberately obtuse about it.
So many great points made in this discussion! And it’s very encouraging to learn that our Bishops are getting ahead of this important issue and providing clear insight.
I would add that these discussions would do well to go a step further in addressing the origins of this disregulation. Whenever I’ve seen the question asked, the person being interviewed always reveals some form of significant childhood trauma. These are the deep wounds that must be healed so that a true conversion of mind and heart can happen.
Sadly, they’re about a decade behind
As a parent of children and grandchildren who have bought into the gender ideology, I must say the difficulty I have encountered is they have cut off all communication. Its impossible to share the truth, when their anger is directed to you. As a parent, it is very difficult to lose, at least for a time, a your family members because you don't call them by their new names and the they them pronouns. Prayer for the discovery of God's love and truth.
EWTN has a 7-part show regarding this named, "Gender ideology- what Catholics Must Know" on their app on demand for free. I highly recommend watching it.
Hold strong. You might be the only person with sanity in their lives
Love and sex are not the same . you can have love without sex and sex without love. They are not the same thing.
Well said.
Exactly. Also, sexual activity is not how a human being is defined. It's like me calling myself a daily tooth brusher.
Thank you for this episode. It really helped me to understand gender ideology in a loving way. I think you are absolutely correct in the way to approach it- by listening and then responding with love. Reading through some of the comments, I see how many people, even Catholics, find this difficult. We cannot preach love if we do not have love for everyone. And we do not have love if we only condemn others. I feel that many of those people discussed in the episode today, are those who are actually seeking love the most. Also, thank you guys for your patience in recording for the second time! 😆
Modern world, changing society = not listening to God and his Scripture and Commandments. Why can't the Bishops just be honest and speak the truth. We need the truth. I am an alcoholic, I can't drink, and I'm ok with that. Me drinking can and probably will lead me to hell. I don't want to go to hell, so I make the sacrifice. We should all have only one goal, and that is to go to Heaven. And we pray for all of our brothers and sisters to convert to the Catholic Church.
Be real if you drink you’re going to make yourself sick and die. Those who feel they are not in the right gender or love the same sex are not going to get sick and die because of it unless they don’t get the proper help and the proper healthcare.
@@carolynnegron4671 Alcoholism isn't the sheer act of drinking too much alcohol or even becoming dependent. Notice how he says he's an alcoholic, but no longer drinks? It is a psychological phenomenon just as is gender dysphoria. These people do need serious and sincere attention and treatment, but what the mainsteam is saying that treatment is not only doesn't help the problem, it is in fact more dangerous and deadly.
Post-transition suicide rates are significantly higher than pre-transition suicide rates, not to mention the higher risk, in general, of STIs, depression, and harmful drug use, complications from surgery and medication, etc. in this currently very trans affirming culture.
Sadly Bishop Stowe of Lexington , Kentucky affirming a woman hermit who is now saying she is a man! This is not love. Compassion and love are truth.
Accept how God has created the human race: man and woman. That’s basic.
Accept that you live in a democracy, and you don't get to dictate the sex lives of consenting adults.
@@The_Atheist_Carpenter5625 we are a constitutional republic now troll elsewhere
All I hear is wah wah
@@lois2997you will respect the separation of church and state, or you'll go somewhere else. The people will speak in november😠
@@The_Atheist_Carpenter5625🍼
@@anitasez hope thats the raw unpasteurized milk, wouldn't want to make me any gayer would you? 😂
This is the level of discourse you deserve, glad I wasn't wrong lol
This was an incredibly compassionate conversation that I was not anticipating!
Thank you for this posting. Non judgmental to the person and respecting God’s Love for us all. As we believe, it is up to us to introduce our Lord to each other and encourage each to His Love.
I'm a fan of your show and been binge watching past episodes. I believe for this topic you should have at least invited a resource from Courage, a Catholic Apostolic group for people with same sex attraction.
Agree. There are many gay people serving in the Church, including priests and nuns. It would have been helpful to have someone who actually can address the issue with intelligence. One in 2.000 infants are born with ambiguous genitalia. Society assigns the gender and the poor kid tries to figure it out as he/she grows up. It's how a person is born. Just as someone is born with brown or blue eyes. This episode was slightly better than the one with the married heterosexual priest who basically said that gays are always "flaming" and that it was their entire identity. Please. Include a gay priest or nun next time.
@@patsampson1174don’t confuse ambiguous genitalia with t r a n s . That’s a well-known activist trick
If there's one thing that is constantly overlooked in these types of discussions, it would be the profound effect that material conditions have on an individual's wants and actions. Most cases of gender dysphoria are accompanied by a deep-seated lack of control over one's life in terms of material ends and means. They look at religion as a tool of oppression, because that's often how it is utilized by the capitalist system.
You and I know that religion in general, and Catholicism in particular, is *SO MUCH MORE* than what its made out to be. However, many of these folks have only limited exposure to orthodox forms of Christianity. This is important for us to remember.
When people are viewed as nothing more than cogs in the machine since childhood, it's only reasonable (through their eyes, at least) for them to reach out towards anything that offers them some semblance of control over their material livelihoods, however misguided.
Pope Pius X - the one most heralded by "conservatives" today - listed *depriving workers of a fair wage* as among the sins that are most grievously offensive to God, alongside acts of sodomy.
They may not appear to be directly related at first glance, but they both are deeply intertwined with the good of human dignity, which is very close to God's heart indeed. If you deprive a human body of control over its external faculties, while leaving it in full control of its internal faculties, the natural impulse would be to grasp at whichever base instincts release the greatest amount of endorphins, as a way to dull the pain of alienation.
Our job as followers of Christ is to [1] reject those base instincts (Love God above all else) and [2] do whatever we can to break down the barriers between God and others (Love your neighbor as yourself)... Thus, it seems outrageously foolish to separate one from the other.
We cannot truly confront this issue until we confront the root cause of their alienation. When folks have no recourse to the outside world because the light of Christ hasn't been shown to them - at least not in a way they can understand - they are left with no visible reason for nourishing their interior lives, and that's a tragedy of most epic proportions.
The biggest demographic for GID is middle class white girls. Hardly the poverty pocket
I feel like most of the “love is love” crowd are not looking to the Catholic Church. There are so many affirming mainline Protestant churches out there
Good show thank you
I have gotten into a few arguments in my time, I tell them truthfully, everyone that knows me,already knows where I stand on these issues! I tell them first off ,this lifestyle your in is not God's best for you in your life! Most just nod their heads and say" that's just your opinion " if they stick around long enough, or want to debate with me, I recite scripture, I also refer a few apologetic pastors and send them links on this subject, but with me,I feel that if you truly love and care about that person's destiny, preach the gospel and explain to them why this is so crucial for them to leave that lifestyle and also obey a Holy God! Love you all! ❤ keep fighting the good fight of faith!❤
Amen ❤🙏🏼
Love it
Alright, guys, you asked, so I will "share my experience of what you're not getting." I'm a 63-year-old gay Catholic man, who attends Mass every morning; not once a week. I've been with the same German atheist in a deeply loving relationship for the last 31 years. We have spent those 31 years living in some of the poorest places on this planet trying to help the poorest of the poor (now in our 9th, and last, country posting here in Peru, and on four continents). This constant, unending contempt you display for people like me is.. breathtaking, simply astounding, in its ignorance.
I am not injured, hurt, in a "place of loneliness", wounded - in the sense you mean - or, God forbid, "intrinsically disordered" (that most hateful of judgmental phrases). You're doing exactly the opposite of what you claim to be doing: You're just...not...listening. So you're constantly committing the logical fallacy of petitio principii, concluding your "argument" from your own invalid assumption: "These poor people need help, how are we going to help them." We don't your need help. But it certainly seems to me that you could use some; from the real world where the People of God lives and loves. Not sitting around a mic or ruminating in DC at the USCCB's conferences.
The love of God is indeed that "self-gifting" agape, which is channeled through me, a sinner called to be close to God. But the USCCB, in its incredible wisdom, is going to do what no poet, no Shakespeare, no Dante, no Petrarch, no Virgil could ever do.. and "define what love is"? Good luck with that.
"Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, is not pompous, it is not inflated, it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth." Because Christians like you speak softly and try to disguise you impatience, your lack of kindness, your jealousy and pompousness, that makes none of those things less apparent.
My creed tells me that HE (HE, not me, and not you) will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead.
Catholicism is not a doctrine; it's a FAITH (Arturo Sosa, SJ, Superior-General, Society of Jesus). Maybe be still, and know that HE is God. And have some Faith in the providential wisdom of the Holy Spirit to "solve your problem" (not mine) in his own time and place. I'll pray for you.
Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13, I guess you missed the entire reason why Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. Read the complete Bible and you might find out directly from God how He will judge. Jesus in His Mercy calls us to repent for our sins and come to Him through confession (which too is in the Bible in Jesus' own words to the Apostles). Jesus loves us but not any of our sins.
@@TheMDelima I'm not in the habit of listening to Old Testament Calvinists. Now run along and judge others; Jesus will love you for it.
@@PK-zb6wh People like you wouldn't even know how to pray. Maybe ask one of the good fathers who run this channel to bring you out of the Disneyland you're living in and teach you the Faith? Peace.
@@PK-zb6wh Get help with those passive-aggressive anger issues. Now run along, some of us out here in the real world are celebrating the joy of the Lord. I am truly saddened that you are drowning in bitterness and faux Christianity. Bye!
@@gerardmcgorian7070You’re not coming across as joyful mate. Genuinely though while you obviously have your own opinion why do you think others shouldn’t be allowed to have theirs? Many SSA Catholics are following church teaching so there’s nothing wrong with having the conversation
Bishop Barron got that line from Thomas Aquinas
Ideology of today should start with Jesus by all parents. Supporting children to see their image in Christ. Guiding them with the love God is in every way. The family has certainly been the victim of diabolic attack. A large majority of parents not supporting their kids growth and development instilling Gods Word and His love...building their childrens self esteem and integrity. You are beautiful right where you are with so much unique and wonderfully made....❤❤
Where is Fr. Rich?
I think his mom is sick
Transgender Catholic woman here. Interested to hear what is said
Hey, Im interested to know how that works for you? Like, Im gay and catholic and I could never quite reconcile the two. So Im genuinly curious
Seems like an oxymoron
After listening, what are your thoughts? Anything you’d share with us?
A lot of bs is all I hear, they'll lie and tell you they "really care about your experience." And "we're just trying to share the truth." Meanwhile they're still going to vote for Trump, they still listen to the likes of matt walsh and micheal knowles nodding their heads like "yes, ladyballers was a stellar comedy, hmm, yes micheal I would like society to regress to the 1200s, yes tim gordon only catholics should be allowed to run for office."
A fascist isn't your friend just because they smile at you🙄
So you’re a confused man who needs help to reorder yourself. The truth will bring you closer to healing, peace and Jesus. Anyone who tells you otherwise does NOT care for your eternal soul. I’m going to say a Hail Mary on your behalf sir.
Sorry but what happened to Father Rich?
Here is a reality, the Church has already been down this road, going back to Aquinas “ipsum esse subsistens”. So what is key is responding in culture with love, guidance and education so that those either malicious or not in intent, will have the burden of proof to sell their thinking.
i completely agree but the thing that saddens and enranges me is the people with malicious intent and/ or ignorance will often project their suspicion onto us that how much their trust has been eroded. it’s frustrating because i don’t know what else to say or do to show that i am not plotting against them or wishing them harm and i genuinely want them to have a life full of blessings.
They won't be able to understand our point us follower of Christ if they haven't received or accepted yet the basic teachings. If they don't have the fundamentals, they won't understand another level of teaching
What I find fascinating about Elliot Page (I know, but it’s just a name) is that they seem to *hate* “cishet men”. They desire to be nothing like what they perceive them to be (which has a tragic backstory) - but a different, “queer & trans” version of them.
The whole point of this episode is to start a baseline discussion with people. How has screaming you are going to hell bern working in helping people turn from sin?
Mark 7: 7-9
7. And in vain do they worship me, teaching doctrines and precepts of men.
8. For leaving the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men, the washing of pots and of cups: and many other things you do like to these.
9. And he said to them: Well do you make void the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition.
👍
Jesus Mary Joseph pray for us
Hello, i think i might be able to explain what love means to the majority of lgbtq+ individuals and more specifically why they(myself included) don't view your perspective as particularly loving.
I think what comes immediately to mind by the word "love" is similar for all of us: hugs and smiles and fits of laughter with friends; acts of selfless charity and kindness toward our fellow man; as well as more intimate activities that bond life partners. These are all universally felt emotions and experiences that give everyone a knowledge of what love is.
Where the Catholic perspective diverges from this is with respect to God. Loving God is held supreme over all other expressions of love, and "If you love me you will keep my commands." Say the scriptures. So when an lgbtq+ individual expresses that they do in fact know what love is, the catholic is tempted to retort: "Oh no you don't. If you knew what love truly is you would be celibate and obedient to God."
This gentlemen is the disconnect. To do what is good one must know what is true, and since we do not agree upon what is true we will inevitably not agree upon what is good, or what is love, even what is tolerable. Navigating a complex world full of complex people who dont all agree on the shape of reality requires both patience and the respect of each others boundaries.
Now, i can speak more about my own experience as a fallen away catholic if you are interested, or i can leave my comments as they are and wish you well. Just let me know.
I hope you see a beautiful flower today🌻
Hallelujah!!! I’m favored and blessed with $60,000 every week! Now I can afford anything and also support the work of God and the church.
Oh really? Tell me more!
This is what Ana Graciela Blackwelder does, she has changed my life.
After raising up to 60k trading with her, I bought a new house and car here in the US and also paid for my son’s (Oscar) surgery. Glory to God.shalom.
I know Ana Graciela Blackwelder, and I have also had success...
Absolutely! I have heard stories of people who started with little or no knowledge but managed to emerge victorious thanks to Ana Graciela Blackwelder.
Deuteronomy 22:5 A woman shall not be clothed with manly apparel, nor shall a man make use of feminine apparel. For whoever does these things is abominable with God.
Matthew 19:4 And he said to them in response, “Have you not read that he who made man from the beginning, made them male and female?” And he said:
Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of creation, God made them male and female.
Ecclesiastes 10:2 A wise man’s heart inclines to the right and a foolish mans heart inclines to the left.
That last verse has possibly led to much damage. I met a man who was severely beaten as a child by Catholic Brothers for writing with his left hand. Anything left was seen as being from the devil.
@@1stBowmanThat’s not true! Why are you trolling Catholic videos to slander Gods One Only True Apostolic Catholic Church? God said the forces of hell will not prevail against His Church.
@@southernlady1109 He had no reason to lie. I believe him. You clearly have no idea what slander is. I'm also aware of what Christ said to Saint Peter. I don't troll by the way.
@@1stBowman He may not have had a reason to lie, some people do it anyway.
slander
1 of 2
verb
slan·der ˈslan-dər
slandered; slandering ˈslan-d(ə-)riŋ
Synonyms of slander
transitive verb
: to utter slander against : DEFAME
slanderer
ˈslan-dər-ər
noun
slander
2 of 2
noun
1
: the utterance of false charges or misrepresentations which defame and damage another's reputation
2
: a false and defamatory oral statement
Zero content, just slanderous comments about the Catholic Church is trolling.
"Love is love" - except when it goes against the COMMANDS of God. The one who does as God commands is the one who LOVES God. Leaving God out of the equation means leaving LOVE out of the relationship - without God it's human depravity.
The so called Catholic talk so it seems cannot differentiate Lust from Love , diplomatic talks to sell ?
I plaued eithnoy upus ehrn I rwas young, I was quite a tom boy. Loved plauing soft ball with the boys, buy I never wanted to be a boy.
No offense, but you do a lot of talking in this episode without a lot of substance... turned off after wasting 5 minutes of positing questions with no answers... Know this is a Talk Show... but no substance guys... bad episode.
My oldest son is a transgender woman now and I refuse to call him she/her and daughter. He knows I love him, but I don't agree with his choice. He doesn't get invited to family events now, but I do go visit him. All I can do is love him and pray this insanity ends soon. I'm also a teacher in a highschool. I'm afraid I'm going to get fired because of my beliefs. What is a good Catholic doctrine I can use to "prove" this is what Catholics believe about gender? Thanks
😅....
Lots of things I could say, but let’s start with. There’s never a woman on this pal that I have ever seen.
Panel
They usually talk with catholic clergy and seminarians, so it's true that men are the most frequent guests, but they have had women on the show before.
It really is ok for men to be able to come together without women.
I continue to ask why the Catholic Church is obsessed with sex and people continue to ask me why I think that. This preoccupation and discussion is one of the reasons why I think that.
Because we live in a sex-obsessed society. From pornography to human trafficking, we treat humans as things to be used, denying their most basic dignity, denying them real love. The Catholic Church will always and everywhere defend human dignity...even as individual Catholics fail miserably. More colloquially, the Church won't just stand back and watch people going to Hades in a handbasket without reaching out to them with love and truth. Thanks for the question. I hope this helps.
@@anilujah7795 "sex is a lot like food only even more exciting. The only people who are obsessed with food are anorexics and the morbidly obese, and that in erotic terms is the catholic church in a nutshell." --Stephen Fry
Sex is sacred; it's involved in the sacrament of matrimony; it's one of the first things God told us to do. It has since been subverted and abused. Once understanding of sex has been restored, I believe the culture will be healthier, happier, and safer.
@@Horse-Feathers who better to "restore understanding" about sex than the catholic church right? It's not like your neurotic beliefs have resulted in any horrific scandals or anything. Here you go McCarrick, Bernard Law, teach our children about the proper application of sex, we trust you🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄
a large number of people in hell are there due to sexual sin per Our Lady of Fatima, that is why.
One of the 10 commandments is why. The Bible speaks of it a lot, that is why. We are called to help save souls, even if you don’t want to be saved.
It is odd you are more concerned about the Church’s “obsession” with sex but not society. It is insane how obsessed society is with all things sex.
We went from what is a marriage to what is a woman. It's nuts!
I was a bit disappointed with this show, you guys need to understand that there is an organized effort to push this ideology on children, that is the fight. I have 2 young children and I want this ideology thrown back in the basement and away from my kids.
this is true, but if we operate from this viewpoint then we are only going to view people who have been swept into this ideology as the enemy.
@@airinkujo3207 the victims of this ideology are not the enemy, but the people pushing it are.
@@dat8835 i get what you are saying but in my circle i have seen victims who have bought into this lie and think it’s genuinely a good thing and see no issue with children learning about preferred pronouns, in fact they wish they had this sort of “education” back then to deter them for searching for information on the dark web. i find people who are not only a part of the lgbtq movement but who actually view it as something good see the entire movement as a civil rights movement and are unable to see how evil the movement truly is because they themselves are confused. in their confusion they pushed for radical acceptance of this ideology, failing to address any cognitive dissonance that arises from endorsing it. the fact that so many predators tend to be involved in the community, people want to say it’s only a minority and that the community is mostly wholesome. but the minute someone wants to slander catholic priest, suddenly it’s okay to do so because it’s Christianity and society has deemed this religion oppressive. no one wants to have meaningful conversation anymore they just want to stay in their echo chamber and/ or wave their moral superiority.
@@dat8835 (re-posting it again because yt deleted my comment)
i get what you are saying but in my circle i have seen victims who have bought into this lie and think it's genuinely a good thing and see no issue with children learning about preferred pronouns, in fact they wish they had this sort of "education" back then to deter them for searching for information on the dark web. i find people who are not only a part of that movement but who actually view it as something good see the entire movement as a civil rights movement and are unable to see how evil the movement truly is because they themselves are confused.
in their confusion they pushed for radical acceptance of this gnostic ideology, failing to address any cognitive dissonance that arises from endorsing it. the fact that so many predators tend to be involved in the community, people want to say it's only a minority and the community is mostly wholesome. but the minute someone wants to slander a catholic priest, suddenly it's okay to do so because it's the Christianity and society has deemed this religion oppressive. no one wants to have meaningful conversation anymore they just want to stay in their echo chamber and/ or wave their moral superiority.
@@dat8835 been trying to reply to your comment but it keeps being deleted
What an embarrassing word salad of a program. This should be called the “Almost” catholic Talk Show.
What was said that you object to?
@@CatholicTalkShow Why did you remove my thoughtful comment to the “Trans Catholic woman”, ? Clearly the disordered man needed someone to compassionately share the truth and pray for his healing. Someone over there at The Almost “Catholic” Talk Show has no room for truth and prayer.
We don’t delete comments. It might be TH-cam deleting things…
@@hiddenhammockfarm1838 This "trans Catholic woman " has 666 in her username... Maybe not as Catholic as he-she says. Prayers are always good though.
Forreal
I've analyzed your channel for 5 years.
I've seen it disintegrate into the extremely dangerous areas and you have become VatcanII +++
Am unsubbing again. So sad.
I think these people are confusing love with lust, anyone in the rainbow mafia will dispute it, but anyone that understands scripture can identify it